War-

[MannyIsGod]

Fucking rockets being fired from plastic and milk factories now too. :rolleyes



BEIRUT: Israel switched gears in its military campaign against Lebanon Monday and Tuesday, launching a series of debilitating air strikes against privately owned factories throughout the country and dealing a devastating blow to an economy already paralyzed by a week of hits on residential areas and crucial infrastructure.

The production facilities of at least five companies in key industrial sectors - including the country's largest dairy farm, Liban Lait; a paper mill; a packaging firm and a pharmaceutical plant - have been disabled or completely destroyed. Industry insiders say the losses will cripple the economy for decades to come.

"I think the picture will be much worse than we can possible imagine when the whole thing ends, but the direct damage from yesterday's attacks to the industrial sector alone will take years to recover from," said Wajid al-Bisri, the vice-president of the Lebanese Association of Industrialists (LAI).

"So many of these factories were barely functioning before," he added, "because of local obstacles to production like high energy costs and labor."

Due to broken lines of communication to the affected areas, the full extent of the material and human damage was still unknown when The Daily Star went to press. However, up to 15 factories have been hit, according to some estimates.

Bisri confirmed that a plastics factory in Tyre, a tissue paper factory in Sidon, a paper mill and a medical supply company in Beirut's southern suburbs and Liban Lait in the Bekaa were all almost completely destroyed. Bisri declined to give the companies' names.


http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&categ_id=2&article_id=74078

[velik_m]

Who's supporting Hezbollah in Lebanon? Other than Iran and other terrorist groups, most of the World has condemned Hezbollah and their actions.

I meant support for Hezbollah from within the Lebanon. You have on the one side a goverment that just begs for peace, and on the other side an organization that actually fights back. I think that will get Hezbollah more support from lebanese(sp?).

[boutons_]

July 19, 2006

U.S. Appears to Be Waiting to Act on Israeli Airstrikes

By HELENE COOPER and STEVEN ERLANGER

WASHINGTON, July 19 — The outlines of an American-Israeli consensus began to emerge on Tuesday, in which Israel would continue to bombard Lebanon for another week or so to degrade the capabilities of the Hezbollah militia, officials of the two countries said.

Then, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice would go to the region and seek to establish a buffer zone in southern Lebanon, and perhaps an international force to monitor Lebanon’s borders and prevent Hezbollah from obtaining more rockets for bombarding Israel.

American officials signaled that Ms. Rice was waiting at least a few more days before wading into the conflict, in part to give Israel more time to weaken Hezbollah.

The strategy carries risk, partly because it remains unclear just how long the rest of the world, particularly America’s Arab allies, will remain silent as the toll on Lebanese civilians rises.

More civilians were killed in Israeli air strikes today — at least 19, according to The Associated Press, while the BBC put the total at 40, and Reuters at 50. Israeli ground troops briefly crossed the Lebanese border and clashed with Hezbollah forces, news services said, while Americans in Beirut began boarding a cruise liner for evacuation to Cyprus.

Reuters reported that 12 Lebanese civilians, including several children, were killed and 30 people were wounded when Israeli jets bombed several houses in Srifa, a village in the country’s south. “There was a massacre in Srifa,’’ said Afif Najdi, the village’s mayor.

Israeli forces also made their biggest incursion into the Gaza Strip in days, sending tanks into a refugee camp, where fighting lead to the deaths of nine Palestinians, officials said.

On Tuesday, 11 members of the Lebanese Army died when bombs hit their barracks east of Beirut, while in southern Lebanon, nine members of a single family were killed and four were wounded in an Israeli air strike on their house in the village of Aitaroun, near the Israeli border.

Some 500,000 Lebanese have fled their homes to escape the violence, the United Nations estimated.

etc ....

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/19/world/middleeast/19cnd-mideast.html?hp&ex=1153368000&en=fe5b12c28a8a30c6&ei=5094&partner=homepage

If the UN is allowed to occupy Lebanon and control its borders and ports (probably th only way weak Lebanon will be able to master its own country later), then I expect US to provide many $Bs in support to rebuild and stabilize democratic Lebanon. If the US wants democracy to sprout in the M/E, they will have to provide a lot of $green fertilizer.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

If somebody else does it, it's "guerilla warfare" but if Lebanon or Palestine does it all the sudden it's 'terrorism'?

What kind of double standard is that. Then when Israel turns around and does the same shit it's "retribution". Would the United States invade a country if one of it's soldiers was kidnapped? I seriously fucking doubt it.

[DarkReign]

If somebody else does it, it's "guerilla warfare" but if Lebanon or Palestine does it all the sudden it's 'terrorism'?

What kind of double standard is that. Then when Israel turns around and does the same shit it's "retribution". Would the United States invade a country if one of it's soldiers was kidnapped? I seriously fucking doubt it.


WW1 was started by the assasination of one man, Archduke Franz Ferdinand.

Remember that.

[Crookshanks]

Good editorial regarding the necessity of Israel's actions.
=======================

Damn the detractors, Israel, Full speed ahead
By Ben Shapiro
Wednesday, July 19, 2006

On July 17, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert addressed the Knesset, Israel's legislature. "There are moments in the life of a nation, when it is compelled to look directly into the face of reality and say: No more!" he thundered. "And I say to everyone: No more! Israel will not be held hostage -- not by terror gangs or by a terrorist authority or by any sovereign state." Israel, Olmert stated, is fighting for "everything that everyone in the enlightened world takes for granted and never imagined that they would have to fight for -- the right to a normal life. … We have no intention of giving up our desire to live a normal life. We will not apologize for this desire, and we do not need anyone's approval to defend ourselves."

Israel will have to maintain that sense of moral backbone if it is to emerge victorious from this latest Arab attempt to obliterate it. It cannot expect the world's support or approval. For once in its short life, Israel will have to abandon its ridiculous commitment to the "community of nations" -- a community of nations that wishes to see Israel eviscerated.

Russian President Vladimir Putin calls Israel's defensive incursion into the Gaza Strip and Lebanon unacceptable, involving as it does the "use of full-scale force." "All the sides that are involved in the conflict must immediately cease military action," says Putin. This from the likes of a ruthless former KGB agent whose country is historically responsible for gulags, pogroms, unceasing expansionism and mass extermination of political opposition.

Pope Benedict XVI equated Israel's response with the actions of Hezbollah and Hamas, explaining, "neither terrorist acts or reprisals, especially when they have such tragic consequences on the civilian population, can be justified." The Vatican should have little moral authority in the realm of international politics, especially when it comes to Israel. No long-standing organized religious institution promotes the sort of international moral relativism the Vatican espouses. And in light of its history, the Vatican hardly has the standing to condemn a Jewish right to self-defense.

President Jacques Chirac of France says that Israel's response to the kidnapping of its soldiers and the coordinated terror attacks on its homeland has been "totally disproportionate." Of course, one would not expect a French president to know that the point of war is a completely disproportionate use of force culminating in victory. For the French, a proportionate response is, presumably, surrender.

While the world complains, Israel is busy doing the kind of necessary dirty work from which the world benefits. In 1956, Israel, along with Britain and France, temporarily prevented Egypt from nationalizing the Suez Canal and thereby monopolizing one of the world's most important trade routes. In 1981, Israel destroyed Iraq's nuclear power plant in Osiraq, setting back Saddam Hussein's attempts to develop weapons of mass destruction. In 1982, Israel's invasion of Lebanon destroyed a good deal of terrorist infrastructure in an area that was one giant terrorist training camp. If America is the world's policeman, Israel is the Middle East's custodian.

Now, Israel may have to do what the world secretly wishes: It may have to dismantle both the Syrian and the Iranian regimes, the true sources of terror in the Middle East. If Israel decides to finally do what it must to assure its long-term security, it will attack those regimes. America can and should provide support; thankfully, President Bush seems quite willing to do so. Meanwhile, the world will doubtless shed a few tears and stamp its feet at Israeli aggression while it quietly pops champagne.

[clambake]

Your domino theory of attacking the missle maker is flawed. Yes, China makes some of these missles, but does not supply them to hezbollah. They have been sold or gifted to hezbollah by Iran, a gov. recognized by the world. Hezbollah is recognized as a terrorist organization. Syria is a gov. recognized by the world communitee.

What is strange is Iran has publicly stated their wish for Israels destruction and yet their still considered a legitimate gov.

Israel should hit Syria and we should strike at Iran.

I can't believe I feel this way.

[boutons_]

fnck "not proportionate".

Those Arabs don't understand ANYTHING but fatal, brutal force.

Arabs lose 10 - 20 times more on their side, repeatedly, than they kill Israelis, a sign of true insanity.

[clambake]

Its not insanity if you believe you'll be rewarded by your God.

Relegion stirs the pot again.

[Crookshanks]

Its not insanity if you believe you'll be rewarded by your God.

What a disappointment when, instead of 72 virgins waiting for you, you face the fires of hell!!

[DarkReign]

What a disappointment when, instead of 72 virgins waiting for you, you face the fires of hell!!

Dont hijack this thread.

[clambake]

Yeah, Crooks. I'm sitting here suggesting an action to take that is certainly appealing to you, and you want to talk about your God.

Put the good book down.

[TDMVPDPOY]

seems like all hezbolah is doin if randomly firing their rockets into israel hittin anything that pks.

While israel takes out one hezbolah at the expense of a building of leb occuppiers/residents.

is this even a war, or just sumshit to cover up genocide? cose atm all im seeing on tv is they are takin out ppl instead of the ppl targeted.

[Yonivore]

...all im seeing on tv...
There's your problem.

[JoeChalupa]

War sucks but it's a part of human nature.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

WW1 was started by the assasination of one man, Archduke Franz Ferdinand.

Remember that.

...and the ensuing misunderstanding.

There is no misunderstanding here. One kidnapping is not a reason to start a war. Booooo Israel.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

What sickens me is to turn on CNN, and have the "correspondent" reporting what's going on being a former Israeli military official. Did you guys see that? VERY OBJECTIVE.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

seems like all hezbolah is doin if randomly firing their rockets into israel hittin anything that pks.

While israel takes out one hezbolah at the expense of a building of leb occuppiers/residents.

is this even a war, or just sumshit to cover up genocide? cose atm all im seeing on tv is they are takin out ppl instead of the ppl targeted.

It's very very one-sided.

On one side you have random rockets being fired with no specific direction, hoping to hit something of importance. On the other side you have an army strategically taking out the airport, water supply, and highways.



I'll let you decided which side is which. Bless our media.

[Crookshanks]

What I meant by my comment was that these terrorists are misguided in their reasoning and it doesn't justify their hatred and attacks against Israel.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

What I meant by my comment was that these terrorists are misguided in their reasoning and it doesn't justify their hatred and attacks against Israel.

Expand on why they're misguided.

[xrayzebra]

Expand on why they're misguided.

Because they want to kill you too, dummy. And anyone that isn't on their
side. You have got the sense God gave a goose.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Because they want to kill you too, dummy. And anyone that isn't on their
side. You have got the sense God gave a goose.

Good justification.

"They want to kill you too". It couldn't be them protecting there turf, right? Muslim aren't trying to invade anybody. It's the US and Israel that are going into Muslim countries.

[MannyIsGod]

Expand on why they're misguided.I'd say their kiidnapping of those 2 soldiers was very fucking misguided. If they expected Israel to react this way, then it wasn't misguided but very fucking stupid.

Take your pick.

[MannyIsGod]

Good justification.

"They want to kill you too". It couldn't be them protecting there turf, right? Muslim aren't trying to invade anybody. It's the US and Israel that are going into Muslim countries.Ok, give me a break here. I'm waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more open minded on this subject than anyone here but you're just ignoring the facts now. Yeah, I have a lot of sympathy for Palestinians and I believe they are fighting an occupier but Hezbollah can fuck off right about now.

Hezbollah was formed to fight the Israeli occupation of Lebanon, which fucking ended 6 years ago. I have no problem with the existing as a political faction, but they've been ordered to disarm and have failed to do so. Hezbollah does a lot of good for the people of Lebanon, but that all goes down the fucking drain when they are the direct cause of this type of military action.

The blame lies at their feet and no one - not even muslim countries - are denying that one bit.

[clambake]

Their "means" by which they persue their goals? Is that what you mean by "misguided"?

Frankly, I'm sick of the whole goddamn thing.

If were going to fight them, then fuckin do it. Make Iran pay for their stance on Israel and the US. Put more troops in Iraq and treat it like a lawnmower does a yard. Let go of Israels leash and let them pitbull down on Syria while we cluster fuck Iran. While were at it, we'll blast N.Korea until not one kimchi pot is left to bury.

All you right wingers keep telling us what has to be done. SO QUIT FUCKIN AROUND!!!

[MannyIsGod]

I'm pretty sure PDBM isn't a right winger.

[xrayzebra]

Good justification.

"They want to kill you too". It couldn't be them protecting there turf, right? Muslim aren't trying to invade anybody. It's the US and Israel that are going into Muslim countries.

Well dummy, they do want to kill me. No and they aren't protecting their
turf. Israel just got through pulling back on some occupied territory and
left most of the infrastructure. There is a little UN resolution, you know the
same UN your crowd loves to praise, 1559 I think it is, that said the
terrorist were to be removed from the area and disarmed. Pardon me, but
does it appear they have been moved or disarmed?

Want to read it. It is short and sweet and to the point.

http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N04/498/92/PDF/N0449892.pdf?OpenElement

Now, you know why some of us have a little bit of doubt about the UN
doing it's job. Now Israel has to do it for them. After provocation.

[clambake]

I wasn't suggesting that pdbm is a rightwinger, Manny.

Xray, noboby thinks the UN is anything more than a useless tool. It is a place for countries to appear objective.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

I'd say their kiidnapping of those 2 soldiers was very fucking misguided. If they expected Israel to react this way, then it wasn't misguided but very fucking stupid.

Take your pick.

That's one incident.

He mentioned general hatred and attacks on Israel. That's what I asked him to expand on.

[xrayzebra]

I wasn't suggesting that pdbm is a rightwinger, Manny.

Xray, noboby thinks the UN is anything more than a useless tool. It is a place for countries to appear objective.

Hate to disagree one more time, but some don't even want to appear objective.

[MannyIsGod]

Gotcha.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Ok, give me a break here. I'm waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more open minded on this subject than anyone here but you're just ignoring the facts now. Yeah, I have a lot of sympathy for Palestinians and I believe they are fighting an occupier but Hezbollah can fuck off right about now.

Hezbollah was formed to fight the Israeli occupation of Lebanon, which fucking ended 6 years ago. I have no problem with the existing as a political faction, but they've been ordered to disarm and have failed to do so. Hezbollah does a lot of good for the people of Lebanon, but that all goes down the fucking drain when they are the direct cause of this type of military action.

The blame lies at their feet and no one - not even muslim countries - are denying that one bit.

Hezbullah leaves a lot left to be desired, even from the Arab world.

But...that doesn't justify an attack of the sort Israel is putting on them. For one kidnapping? I don't think Israel gives two shits about the Lebanese people they just needed an excuse to execute an all-out assault on the southern region and they did just that.



FBI agents get killed in Mexico, do you see the US invading mexico or firing rokets into there water supply and dismantling there roadways?

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Well dummy, they do want to kill me. No and they aren't protecting their
turf. Israel just got through pulling back on some occupied territory and
left most of the infrastructure. There is a little UN resolution, you know the
same UN your crowd loves to praise, 1559 I think it is, that said the
terrorist were to be removed from the area and disarmed. Pardon me, but
does it appear they have been moved or disarmed?

Want to read it. It is short and sweet and to the point.

http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N04/498/92/PDF/N0449892.pdf?OpenElement

Now, you know why some of us have a little bit of doubt about the UN
doing it's job. Now Israel has to do it for them. After provocation.

Lmao.

Ya, after provocation. Big bad Israel is the victim here. Give me a fucking break. I wish Palestine got 4 bill in aid from the US every year, then the Israeli's would be the terrorists.

[xrayzebra]

Mexico is not attempting to obliterate the United States from the map of the
world. Hezbollah, Iran and Syria are wanting just that to happen to Israel.

Does it piss you off that they didn't get anyone's permission to protect themselves?

We used to be that way. But nowadays, we go to the UN and every other damn
country and ask "may we", even when we are enforcing one their dumb ass
resolutions that they voted for to begin with......

[MannyIsGod]

I think Israel has been looking for an excuse to do what they're doing. I think they're going about it in a stupid way, and I don't think they'll follow through to the poit that would wipe out Hezbollah.

But at this point, I think they should keep the bombing up and follow it up with a real ground war against Hezbollah. Then then need to help the Lebanese govenrment either directly or through a proxy like the US. I just don't see them doing anything like that, and I think this will be all in vain and just another footnote in the regions history.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Mexico is not attempting to obliterate the United States from the map of the
world. Hezbollah, Iran and Syria are wanting just that to happen to Israel.


That tends to happen when you're land is given away and you're kicked out via a UN resolution.

[xrayzebra]

Lmao.

Ya, after provocation. Big bad Israel is the victim here. Give me a fucking break. I wish Palestine got 4 bill in aid from the US every year, then the Israeli's would be the terrorists.


Yeah, you just keep on laughing, while they are attempting to saw your
head off. Oh, and tell them you are on their side. I'm sure they will listen
to all your fine arguments. Oh and by the way Palestine got a whole
lot of aid from this country and for many years. Why do you think they
are crying now about it being cut off.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Yeah, you just keep on laughing, while they are attempting to saw your
head off. Oh, and tell them you are on their side. I'm sure they will listen
to all your fine arguments. Oh and by the way Palestine got a whole
lot of aid from this country and for many years. Why do you think they
are crying now about it being cut off.

A whole lot of aid?

Look at how much Israel gets per year, then talk to me about Palestine getting aid.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Btw

Me and the moozlim are tight, I'd just throw on my turban and hook them up with some free slurpees.

[xrayzebra]

I think Israel has been looking for an excuse to do what they're doing. I think they're going about it in a stupid way, and I don't think they'll follow through to the poit that would wipe out Hezbollah.

But at this point, I think they should keep the bombing up and follow it up with a real ground war against Hezbollah. Then then need to help the Lebanese govenrment either directly or through a proxy like the US. I just don't see them doing anything like that, and I think this will be all in vain and just another footnote in the regions history.


Manny, have you been listening the the news today. Now, we, the United
States, is being blamed for everything. All we have to do is tell Israel to
stop and they will..... :lol .....but Syria and Iran cant stop the terrorist.

It didn't take long. Even our wonderful friends, new found friends, I might
add, are saying we are giving Israel all the leave-way they want to
continue the fight. You got to love it.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Btw it was the Britts who mandated the land to the Jews I believe, not the UN. My bad.

[xrayzebra]

A whole lot of aid?

Look at how much Israel gets per year, then talk to me about Palestine getting aid.

How old are you anyway. You talk like a 13 year old. But they get more
than the other side got....it's not fair.

[clambake]

Then what are you waiting on Xray? Call your congressmen and tell them to get the nukes in the air!

(don't post back and say "we have nukes in the air at full ready 24 hours a day")
(don't post back and say "we also have submarines with nukes at the ready 24 hours a day")

Make the call. Your the guy with the cure, right?

[xrayzebra]

Btw it was the Britts who mandated the land to the Jews I believe, not the UN. My bad.

Yeah, your bad. Go read a little history along about 1948. They UN
ceded the land to them. With the United States casting the deciding
vote.

[xrayzebra]

Then what are you waiting on Xray? Call your congressmen and tell them to get the nukes in the air!

(don't post back and say "we have nukes in the air at full ready 24 hours a day")
(don't post back and say "we also have submarines with nukes at the ready 24 hours a day")

Make the call. Your the guy with the cure, right?

I have no idea what you point is on the above. Would you care to
explain it to me?

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Yeah, your bad. Go read a little history along about 1948. They UN
ceded the land to them. With the United States casting the deciding
vote.

If you want to have a civil discussion, let's do it.

If you're going to turn into a condescending prick then fuck you, seriously.

[clambake]

You've been cramming down everybodies throat that it is us or them.

"Let's wipe them out" you say.

OK. You are officially in charge of getting this done. Congratulations on you new position. Were all very excited to hear how you will accomplish this. Please tell us how to succeed. How will you save us?

[xrayzebra]

You made the statement not me. I told you the history of how Israel came into
being. And you called me the "condescending prick". You really are a small child
in your thinking. Civil discussion my foot.

[xrayzebra]

You've been cramming down everybodies throat that it is us or them.

"Let's wipe them out" you say.

OK. You are officially in charge of getting this done. Congratulations on you new position. Were all very excited to hear how you will accomplish this. Please tell us how to succeed. How will you save us?

I have not made the statement "wipe them out". I say defeat them. There
is a heck of a lot of difference. I will say, wipe out their movement and
let people know there are consequences to their actions. If they mess
with us or our well being we will not tolerate it. Just as Israel is doing now.
I have objections to the action going on over there now and support Israel.

I am no great lover of Israel. I think they have bitten the hand that
fed them several times. Speaking of some of their actions toward this
country. Like all the spying they have done, and got caught, and the
savaging of our ship some years back. But I do admire their courage
and what they have accomplished.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

As for the issue of who was responsible for giving the land to Jews...

In the end it was the UN. But before that it was the Brittaish army occupying it, and keeping the Palestinian Arabs there. Eventually the Jews drove the Britts out, the Britts had enough of the drama in the area and handed the issue over to the UN. Who eventually made the partition.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

You made the statement not me. I told you the history of how Israel came into
being. And you called me the "condescending prick". You really are a small child
in your thinking. Civil discussion my foot.


Yeah, your bad. Go read a little history along about 1948.

That's not condescending at all.

[xrayzebra]

As for the issue of who was responsible for giving the land to Jews...

In the end it was the UN. But before that it was the Brittaish army occupying it, and keeping the Palestinian Arabs there. Eventually the Jews drove the Britts out, the Britts had enough of the drama in the area and handed the issue over to the UN. Who eventually made the partition.

Yep, you are somewhat right. But they didn't drive the Britts out. The
Britts did get tired of fighting the Jews and attempting to keep them out.
And so let the UN make the decision.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Yep, you are somewhat right. But they didn't drive the Britts out. The
Britts did get tired of fighting the Jews and attempting to keep them out.
And so let the UN make the decision.

A proposal, which the Arabs rejected feeling it was unfair...and the Jews accepted.

[velik_m]

I think Israel has been looking for an excuse to do what they're doing. I think they're going about it in a stupid way, and I don't think they'll follow through to the poit that would wipe out Hezbollah.

But at this point, I think they should keep the bombing up and follow it up with a real ground war against Hezbollah. Then then need to help the Lebanese govenrment either directly or through a proxy like the US. I just don't see them doing anything like that, and I think this will be all in vain and just another footnote in the regions history.

Some Israeli troops have moved into Lebanon.

[DarkReign]

Whatever. I hold no sympathy for any middle eastern country or culture. I only care about American interests and lives.

The day Canada starts political or terrorist organizations with stated plans of the "...annihilation of the USA", my vote will go right into kicking their ass from one side of the globe to the other tomorrow.

I dont give a God damn why Israel is where it is. I dont care who decided they should be there. None of that shit is relevant. When your shit-bag, pre-industrial country gets its lunch handed to them in a war, you fucking lose. To the victor go the spoils. Ask Japan.

Im sorry you had your (and everyone elses) fucking Holy Land taken away from you. Boo-fucking-hoo.

Want it back? Take it by force!
Cant do that because youre a fucking shitstain, poor-ass, zealot country? Then get in fucking line with the other fuck heads who want something for nothing or because you were there before they were. "I want my grandfathers land back!" Yeah? bet the Indians want Michigan back, too. Those Mexicans are still pissed about Texas also. Lets see them do something about it.

They took it from you. Your ancestors bent over like the cowards they were and signed the damn deal in exchange for their miserable lives. I cry no tears for them.

None. I dont give a fuck about Israel either. I look at the middle east and think...

Parking Lot.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Whatever. I hold no sympathy for any middle eastern country or culture. I only care about American interests and lives.

The day Canada starts political or terrorist organizations with stated plans of the "...annihilation of the USA", my vote will go right into kicking their ass from one side of the globe to the other tomorrow.

I dont give a God damn why Israel is where it is. I dont care who decided they should be there. None of that shit is relevant. When your shit-bag, pre-industrial country gets its lunch handed to them in a war, you fucking lose. To the victor go the spoils. Ask Japan.

Im sorry you had your (and everyone elses) fucking Holy Land taken away from you. Boo-fucking-hoo.

Want it back? Take it by force!
Cant do that because youre a fucking shitstain, poor-ass, zealot country? Then get in fucking line with the other fuck heads who want something for nothing or because you were there before they were. "I want my grandfathers land back!" Yeah? bet the Indians want Michigan back, too. Those Mexicans are still pissed about Texas also. Lets see them do something about it.

They took it from you. Your ancestors bent over like the cowards they were and signed the damn deal in exchange for their miserable lives. I cry no tears for them.

None. I dont give a fuck about Israel either. I look at the middle east and think...

Parking Lot.


What a sad piece of e-cowardly shit you are.

[cheguevara]

Whatever. I hold no sympathy for any middle eastern country or culture. I only care about American interests and lives.

The day Canada starts political or terrorist organizations with stated plans of the "...annihilation of the USA", my vote will go right into kicking their ass from one side of the globe to the other tomorrow.

I dont give a God damn why Israel is where it is. I dont care who decided they should be there. None of that shit is relevant. When your shit-bag, pre-industrial country gets its lunch handed to them in a war, you fucking lose. To the victor go the spoils. Ask Japan.

Im sorry you had your (and everyone elses) fucking Holy Land taken away from you. Boo-fucking-hoo.

Want it back? Take it by force!
Cant do that because youre a fucking shitstain, poor-ass, zealot country? Then get in fucking line with the other fuck heads who want something for nothing or because you were there before they were. "I want my grandfathers land back!" Yeah? bet the Indians want Michigan back, too. Those Mexicans are still pissed about Texas also. Lets see them do something about it.

They took it from you. Your ancestors bent over like the cowards they were and signed the damn deal in exchange for their miserable lives. I cry no tears for them.

None. I dont give a fuck about Israel either. I look at the middle east and think...

Parking Lot.

so u don't give a shit. good for u. nobody will give a shit at ur funeral either loser.

if u don't give a shit, why u even click on the thread ?? :lol

[DarkReign]

What a sad piece of e-cowardly shit you are.

Never got tough with you. Calm down emo kid. The Club beckons you.

[DarkReign]

so u don't give a shit. good for u. nobody will give a shit at ur funeral either loser.

if u don't give a shit, why u even click on the thread ?? :lol

Think I care about who is crying at my funeral? Is this a contest of who cares more?

Nope.

My point is, I dont give a fuck about Lebanon, Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia or Israel.

If there were some magical way to get them all to hate each other and somehow send them into a killing frenzy by which all would be involved, I would do it. If Israel is the shit-stain that lights this fire, then lets do it.

No more pussy-footing around with this region.

[cheguevara]

Think I care about who is crying at my funeral? Is this a contest of who cares more?

Nope.

My point is, I dont give a fuck about Lebanon, Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia or Israel.

If there were some magical way to get them all to hate each other and somehow send them into a killing frenzy by which all would be involved, I would do it. If Israel is the shit-stain that lights this fire, then lets do it.

No more pussy-footing around with this region.

That sounds like a great idea. Except u forgot Israel has nuclear weapons. And if backed against the wall, they will use them. and then u have the oil in the region which directly affects the US. you don't wanna be walking everywhere and paying $$$$ for food, and the basics, etc in the next 5 years if oil production there is gone.

in other words maybe you should give a fuck cause whatever happens will directly affect u.

[DarkReign]

Know why I am the way I am? Because I am sick of being lied to.

This Iraq situation is a charade. WMDs! Shit, no WMDs. Removing a Dictator. Fuck, hes not the only one (why him?). Spreading Democracy! Shit, democracy isnt exacty workable with these people.

America doesnt know what the fuck it is doing. If Israel wasnt in the region, would we have these international problems still? I would think so. The region is soooooo poor and oil dependant, these sheep are fed what to believe from their preists (whatever).

If there is not enough food, the Jews did it. If the economy is weak, Americas fault. Its all bullshit. America has no responsibility to make things fair for ANY country in the world! If those peoples ancestors chose to inhabit a fucking desert, Im sorry about their luck. Unless theyre drilling oil or weaving, theyre not doing much else for export in most ME countries.

Point being, why did 9/11 happen? Why does Al-Queda hate the US so? Why do these coward countries like Saudi Araba and Syria finance known terrorist organizations?

Because they dont want to fight. They know they would lose! Sooooooo, they instead hire mercenaries (ie terrorists) to do it for them. They dont really care for the "hows" and "whys", just that they achieve certain objectives. They give them money, intel and even sometimes haven.

The whoooooole damn region is guilty. The whooooole damn culture is too. The moment Palestine elected Hamas to run their country was when I stopped caring about what happens to the country or its people. Same with Hezbolla.

I am not talking about religion here, I am talking about culture. If it were possible to not have to deal with the region, I wish we would. But we cant. Fucking oil.

Im sick of having to cowtow to mediocre tyrants supported by people who hold religion and tradition higher than human rights and equality.

Does it not seem strange to some people that America actually has to teach these people how to vote?! Or that woman arent property? Or that murder is illegal, no matter what the circumstance?

These seem like very basic tenets of life to me. To them, Im from Mars. If my daughter gets raped, she absolutely has to die, I mean Cmon! I cant have that kind of dishonor in my family! :spin

If that is what we are fighting to protect, then I vote no protection at all. If Israel turns out to be the instrument that precludes the symphony, then hopefully the West will be the conductor.

[DarkReign]

That sounds like a great idea. Except u forgot Israel has nuclear weapons. And if backed against the wall, they will use them. and then u have the oil in the region which directly affects the US. you don't wanna be walking everywhere and paying $$$$ for food, and the basics, etc in the next 5 years if oil production there is gone.

in other words maybe you should give a fuck cause whatever happens will directly affect u.

I totally agree. But if you think the US govt would allow oil production in the ME to cease to exist...

By diplomacy or force, oil will be produced and refined. Come Hell or high water.

[cheguevara]

I totally agree. But if you think the US govt would allow oil production in the ME to cease to exist...

By diplomacy or force, oil will be produced and refined. Come Hell or high water.

dude think about it. If there is a major war in the middle east, the production will be affected if not stopped completely.

The oil infrastructure will be destroyed and even the ppl who work in oil will be dead.

That is the worst case scenario, but its very possible.

[clambake]

You completely missed what Darkreign is saying. I thought I was one of the more liberal thinkers on this forum. (man was I wrong) I'm all for peace and happy and birds that take food from our hands, but hell, some of you want to save the arabs that wish to stick a pipe bomb up our ass.

If you think our gov. is just going to walk away from oil then you don't belong in this discussion. Apparently, you know very little about republicans and democrats.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Yeah, if I had a button that would start an earthquake and drop the entire ME into the ocean, I would do it too. But we're stuck with it, and I say we support Israel and guide them on the path to properly destroying hezbollah and hamas.

Syria and Iran are all but blatantly supporting the violent muslim factions, so Israel needs help too. Israel is already fucking up by continuing these stupid airstrikes. If their strategists and leaders are this fucking stupid then they need help. It just seems all so simple at this point though, I still believe Israel has a land invasion in mind. At the very least they could block off the Syria-Lebanon border hardcore, to prevent further missles going into lebanon (one of their supposed goals which will never happen with a pussyfooting airstrike.)

[gtownspur]

Why not just be humane about the whole situation, and instead of annhilating them, convert them to hinduism.

[Oscar DeLa]

I don't know what it is.
I don't know what it is, but I don't know what it is either.




I don't know what it is, but PDBM is very muslim biased.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

How old are you anyway. You talk like a 13 year old. But they get more
than the other side got....it's not fair.

A few million/billion is different from "hey she got 2 snickers and I got one".

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Never got tough with you. Calm down emo kid. The Club beckons you.

You calm down.

I despise people like your ass. People that will sit there at there computer screen and spew hatred, but would never say anything to anybody in person. Keep typing.

[DarkReign]

You calm down.

I despise people like your ass. People that will sit there at there computer screen and spew hatred, but would never say anything to anybody in person. Keep typing.

You know what they say about assumption...

Can you deny the fact that the culture over there is violent and barbaric?

That women are literally treated like property to be bought and sold?

That women who are raped or molested have somehow shamed her family and therefore need to be punished somehow? Sometimes by death?

Do you not admit that this "line of thinking" is very prevelant in some degree or capacity in ALL middle eastern cultures not named Israel?

No one can deny any of this, yet we as Americans have to be politically correct and like these people when they have no redeeming societal qualities at all. Sure, I bet Mohommed Ali is a swell guy at the bar. But Mr. Ali's country and culture isnt so swell.

If the majority of people in the Middle East are God-fearing, hard-working, non-violent civilians, then they are cowards to let their names be sullied by terrorists/jihadists/what-the-fuck-evers.

Either way, no love lost on my part.

[clambake]

PDBM, the big picture has eluded you.

[DarkReign]

dude think about it. If there is a major war in the middle east, the production will be affected if not stopped completely.

The oil infrastructure will be destroyed and even the ppl who work in oil will be dead.

That is the worst case scenario, but its very possible.

If there is a war in the Middle East, Saudi Arabia and Iraq will have no direct part in it, therefore oil will still be produced. For all America's gaffs in Iraq, they sure do know how to protect oil fields.

Maybe at very reduced amount, and exorbant prices, but still oil.

Now, if youre talking about all out war in the middle east....

The least of the worlds problems would be oil for the forseeable future.

[Marklar MM]

WTF Mate

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ynu7lpkTkGM

[Please_dont_ban_me]

You know what they say about assumption...

Can you deny the fact that the culture over there is violent and barbaric?

That women are literally treated like property to be bought and sold?

That women who are raped or molested have somehow shamed her family and therefore need to be punished somehow? Sometimes by death?

Do you not admit that this "line of thinking" is very prevelant in some degree or capacity in ALL middle eastern cultures not named Israel?

No one can deny any of this, yet we as Americans have to be politically correct and like these people when they have no redeeming societal qualities at all. Sure, I bet Mohommed Ali is a swell guy at the bar. But Mr. Ali's country and culture isnt so swell.

If the majority of people in the Middle East are God-fearing, hard-working, non-violent civilians, then they are cowards to let their names be sullied by terrorists/jihadists/what-the-fuck-evers.

Either way, no love lost on my part.


I don't really care if you have any love for Muslims in the Middle East.

But most of you're ignorant comments aren't based in fact, or just flat out wrong.


+ The culture over there for the MOST part is not violent or barbaric. Now if you walk into a war zone (palestine/israel) of course there's going to be violence. There's violence in Pakistan in the border regions and in Kashmir, does that make India and Pakistant violent and barbaric? I hope not, because the US has strong ties with both.

+ Women being put to death because they're raped? Not that I know of. If it happens in some backward areas, then that's another story. Lynchings still occur in areas of the south. What's your point?

+ As for Israel's "line of thinking". They're economically advanced, and with it they rid themselves of certain customs they too had in the past. That's what happens...it happened in the US too. As your country matures/grows you begin to do things differently. Unfortunately, Palestine doesn't get Millions in aid every year from the US.

+ This year Israel is getting $2.04 billion in military aid and $720 million in economic aid there is only military aid. If Palestine got that much, the Jews would be the terrorists.

[Ya Vez]

WASHINGTON - The House, displaying a foreign affairs solidarity lacking on issues like Iraq, voted overwhelmingly Thursday to support Israel in its confrontation with Hezbollah guerrillas.

The resolution, which was passed on a 410-8 vote, also condemns enemies of the Jewish state.


there is a lot of dems in that 410 vote.... (political year)

[DarkReign]

+ The culture over there for the MOST part is not violent or barbaric. Now if you walk into a war zone (palestine/israel) of course there's going to be violence. There's violence in Pakistan in the border regions and in Kashmir, does that make India and Pakistant violent and barbaric? I hope not, because the US has strong ties with both.

+ Women being put to death because they're raped? Not that I know of. If it happens in some backward areas, then that's another story. Lynchings still occur in areas of the south. What's your point?

Lynchings do not occur anymore. Youre grasping at straws. Backwards areas? It is estimated that in Pakistan alone, in one area, that over 800 "honor killings" happened last year. That reported. How many unreported?


+ As for Israel's "line of thinking". They're economically advanced, and with it they rid themselves of certain customs they too had in the past. That's what happens...it happened in the US too. As your country matures/grows you begin to do things differently. Unfortunately, Palestine doesn't get Millions in aid every year from the US.

+ This year Israel is getting $2.04 billion in military aid and $720 million in economic aid there is only military aid. If Palestine got that much, the Jews would be the terrorists.

Now that I agree with. If Palestine were getting that help, yada yada. Seriously, I dont care about Israel. I am not jewish, I dont even know one person who is. I drove thru west Dearborn the other day and seen alot of Hasidic Jews, but thats it.

I dont know if you know, but Metro Detroit is the 2nd largest Arab population in the country (Los Angeles is 1st). Per capita, Detroit is #1 by far.

This whole Lebanon thing is dividing the community just north of Detroit (protests by both Jews and Arabs, as this offensive escalates, so will the protests). I have no love or hate for either.

Bottom line; Israel is an ally. Lebanon is not. Lebanon has a terrorist organization governing its southern region. Guilty.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

The Koran does not permit or sanction honor killings and religious leaders in Pakistan have on many occasions condemned Karo Kari and other honor killing rituals as "un-Islamic" and a "murder of humanity."


President Pervez Musharraf signed a bill last week making honor killing an explicit criminal act punishable by death.


Link (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/01/20/world/main668007.shtml)



Yes honor killings occur, but no they're not accepted or encouraged. In fact they're illegal. Most the places they occur are in the small villages and countryside...where people still don't believe Epelepsy is a desease, rather it's a person being possessed by the devil.

[clambake]

Whether things are accepted or not has nothing to do with their reality of existance.

Palestinian aid was cut off for some reason. hmmmm can't remember why.

Until Israel is accepted as a soverign state with the right to exist, all of this is an exercise in futility.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Whether things are accepted or not has nothing to do with their reality of existance.

Palestinian aid was cut off for some reason. hmmmm can't remember why.

Until Israel is accepted as a soverign state with the right to exist, all of this is an exercise in futility.

Who made them a sovereign state with the right to exist?

[clambake]

Ohhhhhhhhh, now I think I understand your position.................yikes

[DarkReign]

Ohhhhhhhhh, now I think I understand your position.................yikes

Yikes is right. ouch......

[Oscar DeLa]

I don't know what it is, but I think PDBM is muslim.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

I don't know what it is, but I think PDBM is muslim.

:lol


This man is wise.

[Oscar DeLa]

I dont know what it is but its not surprising that you bend over backwards to support barbaric muslim practices.

[clambake]

Are you a peaceful Muslim?

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Are you a peaceful Muslim?

No.

I'm the type that declares Jehad on posters.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

I dont know what it is but its not surprising that you bend over backwards to support barbaric muslim practices.

Because our wonderful media has distorted everything related to Islam.

If somebody was bashing your religion unfairly you'd do the same thing.

[clambake]

Oh great. Here we go again.

[jochhejaam]

Who made them a sovereign state with the right to exist?
That statement makes it sound it as if you don't believe that they have the right to exist. Is that an accurate assessment?

[Oscar DeLa]

Because our wonderful media has distorted everything related to Islam.

If somebody was bashing your religion unfairly you'd do the same thing.
I don't know what it is, but why don't you explicitly tell us how muslims really treat women in ME countries then.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

I don't know what it is, but why don't you explicitly tell us how muslims really treat women in ME countries then.

Pakistan's had a female President. (Well, "Prime Minister)

That has to tell you a little bit about how Muslims treat there women. Turn on Cops sometime, see how trailer trash treat there women. :D

[clambake]

I'd like to hear your answer to Jochhejaam's question.

[Nbadan]

That statement makes it sound it as if you don't believe that they have the right to exist. Is that an accurate assessment?

:rolleyes

I’m hoping that that question was rhetorical Israel isn't going anywhere and it was the UN that planted the seeds to this situation in the 50's. Still, the US feeds billions of dollars of weapons to Israel causing a power struggle in the region as larger nations with inferior armies try and become more influential. It not that Israel is so strong that is the problem, it's that Israel is so much stronger than other countries in the region. Other countries, and their money, feel militarily inferior, so you get the formation of organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

I'd like to hear your answer to Jochhejaam's question.

I believe I already have throughout this thread.

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=Nbadan]:rolleyes

I’m hoping that that question was rhetorical
The question was addressed to PDBM, so why would you hope it was rhetorical?


It not that Israel is so strong that is the problem, it's that Israel is so much stronger than other countries in the region. Other countries, and their money, feel militarily inferior, <didn't realize money could feel militarily inferior> so you get the formation of organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah.
Terrorist factions were borne because of Israel's military superiority that has only been used to defend its people. Okay dan.
Our military superiority far surpasses that of Mexico and Canada (other Countries in our region) so where's the Canadian and Mexican jihad against our Country? (now that's a rhetorical question)

A rather absurd post from you dan.

[jochhejaam]

I believe I already have throughout this thread.
A simple yes or no would suffice, what are you afraid of?

[DarkReign]

[QUOTE]
Terrorist factions were borne because of Israel's military superiority that has only been used to defend its people. Okay dan.
Our military superiority far surpasses that of Mexico and Canada (other Countries in our region) so where's the Canadian and Mexican jihad against our Country? (now that's a rhetorical question)

Hes got a point. Just because their egos were hurt over 50 years ago does not excuse terrorist practices.

They signed the deal. Now they dont like the terms. Sorry bout your luck, kids.

[Nbadan]

Our military superiority far surpasses that of Mexico and Canada (other Countries in our region) so where's the Canadian and Mexican jihad against our Country? (now that's a rhetorical question)

If you remember we fought quite a few wars with Mexico and the French in Canada. Pancho Villa? The War of 1812? The burning of the WH? Any of that sound familiar?

If the Israelis have a right to self-determination, don't the Lebanese and Palestinians deserve the same?

[Nbadan]

They signed the deal. Now they dont like the terms. Sorry bout your luck, kids.

It's not only about them not liking the deal, its about Israeli hemogamy spreading in the Middle East. Alone Syria, Iran, and the Palestinians can do nothing to stop the Israeli armed forces, but if these countries united, along with Pakistani missile and nuclear technology, then we've got really serious problem. I just don't think the Pakistanis would stand idle while Israel rained bombs down on Syria and/or Iran.

[Nbadan]

Sometimes, a pic is worth a thousand words..


http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/p1-210706_170715a.jpg

[smeagol]

Will the terrorists end the hostilities too?

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=Nbadan]If you remember we fought quite a few wars with Mexico and the French in Canada. Pancho Villa? The War of 1812? The burning of the WH? Any of that sound familiar?
And your citing of these is to be used to support your claim that terrorists are borne because of the military supremacy of neighboring Countries?
You'll have to do much better than that dan. You may just want to admit that your theory is without merit, either that or come up with something that doesn't have to be tortured beyond recognition to support your claim.






If the Israelis have a right to self-determination, don't the Lebanese and Palestinians deserve the same?
Yes, as long as their self-determination isn't defined as crushing the self-determination of others.

[Gerryatrics]

If you remember we fought quite a few wars with Mexico and the French in Canada. Pancho Villa? The War of 1812? The burning of the WH? Any of that sound familiar?

If the Israelis have a right to self-determination, don't the Lebanese and Palestinians deserve the same?

When did the United States fight a war with French Canadians? The United States had military superiority far surpassing that of Canada and the United Kingdom during the war of 1812? One raid by a revolutionary equals a war between the United States and Mexico? Didn't Pancho Villa launch a raid in the United States because the US stopped supplying him and his forces and supported Carranza: the President of Mexico? Wasn't this during the Mexican Revolution, a civil war, not a war with the United States? Why do you bother to keep posting when every post just discredits you more and more?

[Gerryatrics]

Sometimes, a pic is worth a thousand words..


http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/p1-210706_170715a.jpg


When Hezbollah backs immediate cease-fire, I'll care.

[velik_m]

'Israeli fire' kills four in Gaza
Four Palestinians have been killed in a blast in Gaza that witnesses say was caused by an Israeli tank shell.

The house targeted in the blast, in the Shajaiyeh district, belonged to a known Hamas activist, locals quoted by the Associated Press news agency said.

At least three people are said to have been hurt in the explosion.

Israel launched its military offensive in the Gaza Strip three weeks ago after a soldier was captured by militants linked to Hamas's military wing.

Cpl Gilad Shalit was captured in a cross-border raid near the Gaza Strip.

The Israeli military has not confirmed its involvement in the latest incident.

Hamas sources said the blast had killed a militant from their group, as well as his mother and two of her grandchildren.

The house which was destroyed is near the Karni crossing point where Israeli troops and tanks have been massed for the past three weeks.

Israeli bulldozers are reported to be in the area as the search for tunnels and weapons continues.

They said Israeli helicopters had also attacked the area.

The blast in Shajaiyeh came hours after Israeli forces ended a two-day assault on the Maghazi refugee camp in central Gaza in which they killed at least 14 Palestinian militants and civilians.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/5201896.stm

Published: 2006/07/21 10:03:16 GMT

----------------------------------

3 civilians for 1 activist? nice.

Hezbollah has better civilian to soldier ratio.

[Yonivore]

Sometimes, a pic is worth a thousand words..
And, sometimes it's worth nothing at all.

Thomas Sowell (http://www.townhall.com/columnists/ThomasSowell/2006/07/21/pacifists_versus_peace):


Take the Middle East. People are calling for a cease-fire in the interests of peace. But there have been more cease-fires in the Middle East than anywhere else. If cease-fires actually promoted peace, the Middle East would be the most peaceful region on the face of the earth instead of the most violent.

Was World War II ended by cease-fires or by annihilating much of Germany and Japan? Make no mistake about it, innocent civilians died in the process. Indeed, American prisoners of war died when we bombed Germany.
Then, you've got Kofi helping the terrorists:

STOLEN FROM EUGENE :


United Nations an Accomplice in Hezbollah Kidnapping:

After Hezbollah's kidnapping of a pair of Israeli soldiers spurred an Israeli counter-attack, many critics of Israel actions have suggested that the United Nations can serve as a buffer between Israel and Hezbollah. To the contrary, the United Nations has a well-established record of collaboration with Hezbollah in the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers.

The United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) has been deployed since 1978, not long after Israel first entered Lebanon in pursuit of PLO terrorists. UNIFIL was created pursuant to [URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Security_Council_Resolution_425]Security Council Resolution 425 (]VOLOKH[/URL), for the purpose of "confirming the withdrawal of Israeli forces, restoring international peace and security and assisting the Government of Lebanon in ensuring the return of its effective authority in the area." Quite obviously UNFIL has utterly failed to achieve the Security Council's objectives, either before or after Israel's 2000 complete withdrawal from Lebanon. One reason is that UNIFIL does not interdict Hezbollah attacks on Israel. Instead, UNIFIL allows Hezbollah to set up positions next to UNFIL units, in effect using UNIFIL as human shields against Israeli counterstrikes. (Aluf Benn, Israel accuses UN of collaborating with Hezbollah," Haaretz, Sept. 11, 2005.)

UNIFIL's most notorious collaboration with terrorists involved the kidnapping and murder of three Israeli soldiers, and the subsequent cover-up.

On October 7, 2000, Hezbollah terrorists entered Israel, attacked three Israeli soldiers on Mount Dov, and abducted them Lebanon. The kidnapping was witnessed by several dozen UNIFIL soldiers who stood idle. One of the soldier witnesses described the kidnapping: the terrorists set of an explosive which stunned the Israeli soldiers. Clad in UN uniforms, the terrorists called out, "Come, come, we’ll help you."

The Israeli soldiers approached the men in UN uniforms. Then, a Hezbollah bomb detonated—-apparently prematurely. It wounded the disguised Hezbollah commander, and three Israeli soldiers.

Two other terrorists in U.N. uniforms dragged their Hezbollah commander and the three wounded soldiers into a getaway car.

According an Indian solider in UNIFIL who witnessed the kidnapping, "By this stage, there was a big commotion and dozens of UN soldiers from the Indian brigade came around." The witness stated that the brigade knew that the kidnappers in UN uniform were Hezbollah. One soldiers said that the brigade should arrest the Hezbollah, but the brigade did nothing.

According to the Indian soldier (http://www.israelinsider.com/channels/diplomacy/articles/dip_0061.htm), the UNFIL brigade in the area "could have prevented the kidnapping."

"I’m very sorry about what happened, because we saw what happened," he said. Hezbollah "were wearing our uniforms and it was too bad we didn’t stop them."

It appears that at least four of the UNIFIL "peacekeepers," all from India, has received bribes from Hezbollah in order to assist the kidnapping by helping them get to the kidnapping spot and find the Israeli soldiers. Some of the bribery involved alcohol and Lebanese women.

The Indian brigade later had a bitter internal argument, as some members complained that the brigade had betrayed its peacekeeping mandate. An Indian government investigation sternly criticized the brigade's conduct.

There is evidence of far greater payments by Hezbollah to the UNIFIL Indian brigade, including hundreds of thousands of dollars for assistance in the kidnapping and cover-up.

The UN cover-up began almost immediately.

Lebanon's The Daily Star reported the story told by a former officer of the Observer Group Lebanon (OGL), which is part of the UN Truce Supervision Organization (UNTSO). ("UN 'destroyed' evidence after abduction of 3 Israeli troops," The Daily Star (http://www.dailystar.com.lb/), July 20, 2001.)

A few hours after the kidnapping, UNTSO learned that two abandoned cars had been discovered. One was a white Nissan Pathfinder with fake UN insignia; it had hit an embankment because it was being driven so fast that the driver missed a turn. The other was a Range Rover; it was missing a tire rim, and was still running when it was discovered.

Rather than using the very-recently-abandoned vehicles as clues to rescue the kidnap victims, the UN initiated a cover-up. The next morning, eighteen hours after the kidnapping, a team of OGL and the Indian UNIFIL began removing the contents of the cars.

The Range Rover was soaked with blood. Among the contents of the vehicles may have been a cell phone belonging to the terrorists. The UNTSO officer confirmed that the cars contained "extremely sensitive" items which included "current and relevant information that could have been easily linked to the incident."

A UNIFIL peacekeeper videotaped the removal of the contents, and attempted to tow one of the cars. According to a much-later U.N. report, there were fifty items taken from the car, seven of them blood-stained. (Report of the fact-finding investigation relating to the abduction of three Israeli soldiers on 7 October 2000 and subsequent relevant events (http://www.un.org/News/dh/latest/videorpt.htm), Aug. 2, 2001.)

The end of the UNIFIL videotape featured armed Lebanese men confronting the UN forces, and taking the cars away from the UN. The UN personnel did not resist, because, they later claimed, the cars did not belong to the UN anyway.

The UNTSO officer told The Daily Star that the UN ordered its personnel to destroy all photographs and written reports about the incident.

The U.N. did not provide the Israelis with the automobile contents, or the videotape, both of which might have helped the Israelis rescue the kidnap victims. Instead, the seized contents of the cars were taken to a town in Lebanon, stored in a safe, and some were eventually returned to Hezbollah.

Israel found out about the videotape, and demanded that the UN let Israeli investigators see it. Kofi Annan and his Special Envoy denied that any videotape existed. It is not clear whether Annan was lying, or whether he was misled.

Nine months after the kidnapping, July 6, 2001, the UN admitted that is had the videotape. Annan ordered an internal UN Report, which was led by UN undersecretary-General Joseph Connor. (Connor was later implicated in the Oil-for-Food scam.) The report revealed that the UN had two additional videotapes—one of which contained still photographs from the kidnapping itself. The UN investigation declared that there was no evidence that the UNIFIL forces had been bribed, or that the UN had deliberately misled anyone.

Even after admitting the existence of the first videotape, Annan refused to allow Israel to view it. He claimed that letting Israel see evidence about the kidnapping would undermine the UN’s neutrality. Thus, Annan insisted on neutrality between innocent victims and terrorists who had used fake UN insignia and who had taken vehicles from UN staff a gunpoint.

The United States House of Representatives, on July 30, 2001, passed by a vote of 411-4 a resolution urging the UN to allow Israel to see the videotape. Annan relented, but only under the condition that the tape be edited so as to hide the faces of the Hezbollah perpetrators. He also agreed to give the Israelis some, but not all, of the items which the UN had seized from the getaway cars.

On January 29, 2004, the bodies of the murdered Israelis were returned to Israel by Hezbollah, as part of a prisoner exchange.
UPDATE: In response to one of the commenters, I've added the following analysis on two questions: 1. By what standard can the UN be considered an "accomplice" in the Hezbollah kidnapping? 2. Is anti-semitism the best explanation of UN behavior?

1. Regarding UN complicity in kidnapping, one can analogize from the rules that are used to decide whether a corporation is criminally culpable for the acts of its employees, or whether a government agency is liable under section 1983 for the acts of its employees. At the lowest level--the four bribed Indians--the trier of facts looks at the entity's efforts to prevent or punish the employee conduct in question, and whether the entity creates a culture in which the conduct is encouraged or tacitly tolerated.

For misconduct by higher-ranking employees, prosecutors and fact-finders tend to be more likely to conclude that misconduct is attributable to the entity. If you believe the UNTSO official who spoke to The Daily Star (not exactly a reflexively pro-Israel newspaper), or if you believe that reports of a vast bribery scheme are true, then you might well find culpability on the part of the UN.

But I think that my calling the UN an "accomplice" is supportable purely on the undisputed public facts about the UN's concealment and suppression of evidence -- with some of the suppression being conducted at the direct order of the UN's chief executive. I believe the undisputed facts are sufficient to show, at the least, that the UN was an accessory-after-the-fact to the kidnappings.

Moreover, the activities of the UN's top staff in New York City, and of high-ranking UN officials in Lebanon, are also relevant evidence for whether there is UN corporate culture of tolerance for terrorism/kidnapping, which is relevant evidence for whether the misconduct of the Indian brigade can be attributed to the UN.

As some commenters have pointed out, there is a very long record of the UN being extremely lax towards crimes committed by its peacekeepers in many other places--for example, the rapes of women and girls in former Yugoslavia, Cambodia, West Africa, and the Congo. The global record suggests, again, a corporate culture of indifference (despite official statements to the contrary) towards employee on-the-job involvement in violent crime; the evidence of a global culture of indifference is more evidence which a fact-finder could use in concluding that crimes of the Indian brigade were attributable to the UN.

2. Anti-semitism. I don't think that anti-semitism is the root of the UN's problem with Israel. It's true, as some commentators have pointed out, that the UN is functionally anti-semitic; that is, the UN constantly condemns Israel far more often and more vehemently than it condemns other countries which (even if you believe the worst about Israel) violate human rights much more severely than Israel does. The Eye on the UN website (http://www.eyeontheun.org/) provides copious documentation of the UN's functional anti-semitism.

Nevertheless, I think the UN's pervasive anti-Israelism, although anti-Semitic in practice, is not primarily motivated by hatred of Jews.

Hitler was genuinely committed to anti-Semitism. He harmed his own military interests by giving rail line priority to trains which were headed for the death camps, putting those trains ahead of military transport trains. Similarly, Hitler would have produced resources with which to fight the war if he had used Jews as slave labor (as many were used before extermination), rather than killing them en masse. Who else would harm their own self-interest in order to kill Jews. The answers include "the government of Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas, and the PLO." But only one of these has a UN delegation, and the UN had turned vehemently against Israel long before Iran's government was taken over by Islamonazis.

Way back in the 1950s, the Arab bloc at the UN had succeeded in perverting UNRWA so that UNRWA would perpetuate rather than solve the Palestinian refugee problem. The Arab dictators of the day may have personally despised Jews, but I think that the dictators were acting out of self-interest, not prejudice. They recognized that keeping the Arab-Israeli conflict festering was a good way to distract and divert the anger of their own nations' populations. In retrospect, we know that the strategy was only partially successful, since the fomentation of anti-Israel Jew hatred sometimes aroused local forces which the dictatorships were unable to control.

Arab government-incited anti-semitism had the advantage of building on historical prejudices against Jews. (It's true that, in the past, Arab Moslem regimes sometimes treated Jews better than did European Christians, but there was also a long record of atrocious abuse of Jews in the Arab world on which the post-WWII Arab dictatorships could build.)

But suppose that modern Israel had never been created, and that, after WWII, some other state for a stateless people had been born. Maybe sympathy for the Gypsies, who were also the victims of Nazi genocide, might have led to the creation of Gypsistan (or Romastan, according to the modern usage) in a part of Egypt. (The word "gypsy" comes from the "Egypt", based on the belief that the group originated there.) Or some other persecuted group might have established a homeland in the wastelands of Libya. In any case, I think that the establishment of a non-Arab state would likely have led to military confrontation, and if the attempt to exterminate that state by force had failed, then the Arab dictators would have found political advantage in fomenting hatred of that non-Arab state.

Although UNRWA was captured very shortly after it was born, the broader UN assault on Israel didn't get going until the 1960s; the assault peaked in the 1970s, and later receded slightly from its 1970s apex. The anti-Israel assault of the 1970s was merely one element in a successful Soviet strategy of aligning the new UN members, most of them former colonies of Europe, and most of them dictatorships, into an anti-Western bloc. Israel, having the misfortune of being located in the middle of a sea of dictatorships, was a natural target of this UN super-majority; but the same would have been true if Romastan were a pro-western democracy.

Today, the Islamic bloc at the UN continues to find local political advantage in anti-Israelism (as it would with anti-Romastanism), while the rest of the Third World finds it advantageous to go along. I don't think that the dictatorship of China, for example, cares one way or the other about Jews or Israel; but the Chinese dictatorship correctly discerns that voting with the Islamic bloc against Israel is a cost-free way to curry favor with Islamic states, and win their support on issues relevant to China.

Regarding Kofi Annan, and most of the rest of the UN's leading executives, I would say that, functionally, they are vicious anti-Semites, but that, in their hearts, they are not particularly prejudiced against Jews per se. Rather, their actions are explainable under the principles of organizational behavior. Annan is a career UN employee (the first one to become Secretary-General), and he has risen through the organization by shrewdly placating whoever needs to be placated. His anti-Israel actions are simply the result of his astute calculation of the balance of forces at the UN. If he could gain more power at the United Nations by denouncing Fiji or by defending Israel, he would do so.

So there is no anti-semitic conspiracy at the UN, in the sense of a conspiracy directed by people who are deeply motivated by hatred of Jews. Rather, the UN's criminal complicity in the kidnapping of Israelis, like the rest of the UN's anti-Israelism, is explainable as the logical result of a wide variety of UN actors behaving according to their self-interest.

“Now, philanthropists may easily imagine there is a skilful method of disarming and overcoming an enemy without causing great bloodshed, and that this is the proper tendency of the art of War. However plausible this may appear, still it is an error which must be extirpated; for in such dangerous things as war, the errors which proceed from a spirit of benevolence are just the worst.”

“As long as the enemy is not defeated, I have to apprehend that he may defeat me, then I shall be no longer my own master, but he will dictate the law to me as I did to him.”

[Nbadan]

Yes, as long as their self-determination isn't defined as crushing the self-determination of others.

When did the Lebanese people attack Israel again? Who is crushing whoms dream of self-determination?

[Nbadan]

Looks like the Saudis are getting cold feet about the whole invasion thingy...


Saudi Arabia asked President Bush on Sunday to intervene in Israel's military campaign against Hezbollah in Lebanon to stop the mounting deaths, but administration officials said they remain convinced that an immediate cease-fire is not the answer.

Saudi Foreign Minister Prince Saud al-Faisal said that during an Oval Office meeting with Bush, he gave the president a letter from Saudi King Abdullah asking that Bush help seek an immediate cease-fire in the Middle East conflict.

snip>

Nail al-Jubeir, a Saudi embassy spokesman, said the Saudis would not release the letter or get into other details of the proposal because it was a private communication between Abdullah and Bush. Asked whether the Saudis requested that Bush directly pressure Israeli leaders for a cease-fire, al-Jubeir said they cannot tell the president who to call. But he noted Bush has a unique influence to negotiate with Israel.

"The U.S. has the authority, it has the clout with Israel," he said. "For us to go and talk to the Israelis isn't going to do anything."

Saud said in their meeting, Bush expressed his desire for the violence to stop. But Saudi officials would not say how he responded to their request for an immediate halt to Israel's bombing campaign.

Norman Transcript (http://www.normantranscript.com/feeds/apcontent/apstories/apstorysection/D8J22I502.xml.txt/resources_apstoryview)

[Nbadan]

Does Hezbollah get along with Egypt? What about Hamas and Iran?
By Christopher Beam and Noam Rudnick
Posted Friday, July 21, 2006, at 5:04 PM ET

Click for a Slate interactive (http://www.slate.com/id/2146230/nav/tap1).Last month, Hamas militants tunneled into Israel and kidnapped an Israeli soldier. Israel immediately invaded Gaza. Hamas began lobbing rockets into Israel. The Lebanese group Hezbollah kidnapped two more Israelis near the Lebanon-Israel border. Israel responded by carrying out airstrikes against Lebanon. Egypt and Saudi Arabia condemned Hezbollah for instigating the violence. Syria, Iran, and Lebanon called Israel's retaliation an excessive use of force.

Confused? We are too. Slate's Middle East Buddy List breaks down the relationships between the countries, terrorist organizations, and political factions who are fighting it out in the current conflict. Who likes whom? Who are the bitterest of enemies? And which groups don't really know where they stand? Click here to open an interactive chart that tells you everything you need to know

[AFE7FATMAN]

Does Hezbollah get along with Egypt? What about Hamas and Iran?
By Christopher Beam and Noam Rudnick
Posted Friday, July 21, 2006, at 5:04 PM ET

Click for a Slate interactive (http://www.slate.com/id/2146230/nav/tap1).Last month, Hamas militants tunneled into Israel and kidnapped an Israeli soldier. Israel immediately invaded Gaza. Hamas began lobbing rockets into Israel. The Lebanese group Hezbollah kidnapped two more Israelis near the Lebanon-Israel border. Israel responded by carrying out airstrikes against Lebanon. Egypt and Saudi Arabia condemned Hezbollah for instigating the violence. Syria, Iran, and Lebanon called Israel's retaliation an excessive use of force.

Confused? We are too. Slate's Middle East Buddy List breaks down the relationships between the countries, terrorist organizations, and political factions who are fighting it out in the current conflict. Who likes whom? Who are the bitterest of enemies? And which groups don't really know where they stand? Click here to open an interactive chart that tells you everything you need to know

SLATE- :madrun COME ON GIVE ME A BREAK DAN

[ChumpDumper]

All I know is Condi will never be President if she keeps saying status quo ante.

[Ocotillo]

http://photos1.blogger.com/hello/145/1296/320/bush.0.jpg

[BIG IRISH]

Are u the Orginal Ocotillo from the old WOAI Boards?

and post the link for the photo please

[boutons_]

"where Two Or Three Are Gathered Together In My Name, There Am I..."

Where Two Or Three Muslims Are Gathered Together, There's Blood In The Sand ...

[Ocotillo]

Are u the Orginal Ocotillo from the old WOAI Boards?

and post the link for the photo please

Yup,

scroll down to July 20 (http://tbogg.blogspot.com/)

[clambake]

Thank you. Could I please have another vodka tonic?

[TDMVPDPOY]

i think august 18, chinas new beamer ray should be tested in the middle east :D

[AFE7FATMAN]

Octillo

If you are the original Who Was Sandy and what was your relationship with her? also what other names did you post under?

[Nbadan]

That's the original Octillo, and I'm the original Nbadan

[BIG IRISH]

That's the original Octillo, and I'm the original Nbadan
I thougt so DAN but I think this guy just has a big ego :lol

[AFE7FATMAN]

I am the orginial AFE7FATMAN
ASK KORI, LJ, MOUSE, SEQU-SPUR CYBER-BOB
I Met them at a GTG, have kori E-Mail me if necessay, I also Post at MIL.COM. SPURS CENTRAL

I would like to keep all war news in this thread because I need a big ego
and enjoy the thread I started. :lol

[Nbadan]

Now that we got that straight...more info on the Hezbollah kidnappings that started this round of conflict is immerging...

"Where exactly were those Israeli soldiers when Hezbollah captured them?


On July 12th, the Associated Press reported "The militant group Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes Wednesday across the border in southern Lebanon, prompting a swift reaction from Israel, which sent ground forces into its neighbor to look for them." This is from the article Hezbollah Captures 2 Israeli Soldiers By JOSEPH PANOSSIAN , 07.12.2006, 05:41 AM

This AP news article was run by several news outlets on July 12th like ABC, CBS Forbes, The Boston Herald etc. Here are more examples of articles which mention that the Israeli soldiers were captured on the Lebanese side of the boarder and a map that shows the Lebanese town refereed to in the articles: The two Israeli soldiers were captured in Lebanon Here are two examples from those at that page:

"The Lebanese Shiite Hezbollah movement announced on Wednesday that its guerrillas have captured two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon. "Implementing our promise to free Arab prisoners in Israeli jails, our strugglers have captured two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon," a statement by Hezbollah said.

"The two soldiers have already been moved to a safe place," it added. The Lebanese police said that the two soldiers were captured as they "infiltrated" into the town of Aitaa al-Chaab inside the Lebanese border."

It all started on July 12 when Israel troops were ambushed on Lebanon's side of the border with Israel. Hezbollah, which commands the Lebanese south, immediately seized on their crossing. They arrested two Israeli soldiers, killed eight Israelis and wounded over 20 in attacks inside Israeli territory. "

Link (http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m25050&hd=0&size=1&l=e)


"Israel’s immediate response was to send a tank into Lebanon in pursuit of the Hizbullah fighters (its own foolhardy violation of Lebanese sovereignty). The tank ran over a landmine, which exploded killing four soldiers inside. Another soldier died in further clashes inside Lebanon as his unit tried to retrieve the bodies.

Rather than open diplomatic channels to calm the violence down and start the process of getting its soldiers back, Israel launched bombing raids deep into Lebanese territory the same day. Given Israel’s worldview that it alone has a right to project power and fear, that might have been expected.

But the next day Israel continued its rampage across the south and into Beirut, where the airport, roads, bridges, and power stations were pummelled. We now know from reports in the US media that the Israeli army had been planning such a strike against Lebanon for at least a year.

In contrast to the image of Hizbullah frothing at the mouth to destroy Israel, its leader Hassan Nasrallah held off from serious retaliation. For the first day and a half, he limited his strikes to the northern borders areas, which have faced Hizbullah attacks in the past and are well protected.

He waited till late on June 13 before turning his guns on Haifa, even though we now know he could have targeted Israel’s third largest city from the outset. A small volley of rockets directed at Haifa caused no injuries and looked more like a warning than an escalation."

AxisofLogic (http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_22592.shtml)

[Yonivore]

Now that we got that straight...more info on the Hezbollah kidnappings that started this round of conflict is immerging...

"Where exactly were those Israeli soldiers when Hezbollah captured them?

Link (http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m25050&hd=0&size=1&l=e)

AxisofLogic (http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_22592.shtml)
Wow! How long after the kidnappings is it now? And this is the first we've heard that the Israeli soldiers were actually in Lebanon? I would have thought that the Hezbollah's Nasrallah or someone in Lebanon or Syria or Iran would have already made this claim a long freakin' time ago...if it were true.

Axis of Logic, indeed.

[Nbadan]

I believe this is the claim Hezbollah has been making all along, just not according to the M$M...meanwhile it gun-boat diplomacy in the gulf...

Published: 7/25/2006


ANKARA - Israeli gunboats fired warning shots at a Turkish ferry helping evacuate Australians from Lebanon and held it for several hours, Transport Minister Binali Yildirim said here Tuesday.
No evacuees were on board the high-speed ferry Akcakoca when the incident occurred late Monday, the Anatolia news agency quoted Yildirim as saying.

"The Akcakoca was stopped by Israeli gunboats last night while en route from Beirut to Famagusta," in Turkish-controlled eastern Cyprus, the minister said.

"It was held until morning. The problem was resolved through diplomatic channels by the Australian embassy and the Turkish foreign and transport ministries," he said.

Turkish Press (http://www.turkishpress.com/news.asp?id=134945)

You have to think someday one of these incidents isn't going to end so happily.

[Yonivore]

I believe...
Based on what?

Nasrallah has had plenty of face time on the MSM. Hell, Hezbollah invited CNN into Southern Lebanon to screech about dead civilians. They've had plenty of opportunity to claim the Israeli soldiers were actually in Lebanon when kidnapped.

Besides, you believing anything doesn't say much. You believe some pretty whacked shit.

[Nbadan]

Based on what?

Nasrallah has had plenty of face time on the MSM. Hell, Hezbollah invited CNN into Southern Lebanon to screech about dead civilians. They've had plenty of opportunity to claim the Israeli soldiers were actually in Lebanon when kidnapped.

Besides, you believing anything doesn't say much. You believe some pretty whacked shit.

Yeah, right, like the whole 'no Iraq WMDs thingy' and global warming. Really wacked out shit.

:rolleyes

Meanwhile, it looks like minute-Rice isn't gonna get shit settled for now


Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice is abruptly breaking off her diplomatic mission in the Mideast and returning to Washington after Israel’s deadly attack on a Lebanese village, a U.S. official said Sunday.

Rice, who planned to head back to the United States on Monday morning, had hoped to leave the region after concrete progress on ending the fighting between Israel and the Hezbollah militia in southern Lebanon. But her work was hampered severely by Israel’s missile strike early Sunday that killed more than 50 people, including many children.

The U.S. official, who spoke on condition of anonymity about the diplomatic situation, said Rice would work from Washington on a U.N. Security Council resolution to end the crisis. ...
(clip)

...“Emotions are understandably running high on all sides,” she said.

MSNBC (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/14101886)

According to most other media reports, Beirut told her to not come.

[Yonivore]

Yeah, right, like the whole 'no Iraq WMDs thingy' and global warming. Really wacked out shit.

:rolleyes
Exactly.


Meanwhile, it looks like minute-Rice isn't gonna get shit settled for now
That's cool. Israel needs to keep killing terrorists.


MSNBC (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/14101886)

According to most other media reports, Beirut told her to not come.
Whatever it takes to keep the Israelis on task.

[MannyIsGod]

Hezbollah lives on. Good job Isreal, good job!


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/35/Economist_Cover_20060819.jpg

What a cluster fuck this turned out to be.

[Ya Vez]

yes hezbollah won.. 30,000 international troops now going to be in their country... chalk one up for hezbollah....

[MannyIsGod]

yes hezbollah won.. 30,000 international troops now going to be in their country... chalk one up for hezbollah....Hezbollah's victory's aren't that simple. Yeah, if one of those UN troops ever tries to do anything to Hezbollah I'd be really suprised and I'm pretty sure you would to.

[ChumpDumper]

Hezbollah exists and is more popular than ever. Unfortunately that means chalking one up for them.

[RandomGuy]

Wow! How long after the kidnappings is it now? And this is the first we've heard that the Israeli soldiers were actually in Lebanon? I would have thought that the Hezbollah's Nasrallah or someone in Lebanon or Syria or Iran would have already made this claim a long freakin' time ago...if it were true.

Axis of Logic, indeed.

The soldiers were in the part of Lebanon long-controlled by the Israelis but never formally annexed, if memory serves.

The southern part of lebanon has a curious swath of people who are technically lebanese, but who end up having Iraeli license plates for their cars and pay taxes to Israel. This has long been a sore point for Lebanese that resent the continued occupation of this part of the country.

This may be the first that YOU have heard of it, but it is widely known outside of Fox News viewers...

Further proof of how limiting only getting your news from one viewpoint is.

[Ozzman]

Because our wonderful media has distorted everything related to Islam.

If somebody was bashing your religion unfairly you'd do the same thing.

Ya. So, from your point of view, TRUTHFULLY, was 9/11 good or a bad? and HEzbollah and Israel....who is at fault?

[temujin]

Ya. So, from your point of view, TRUTHFULLY, was 9/11 good or a bad? and HEzbollah and Israel....who is at fault?

How about both?