7:00 AM and Still No Rapture

[Nbadan]

http://www.geocities.com/tulipsthorns/hagee.jpg
Damn you Hagee!!(in best jon stewart style)

Can we cut the bible prophesy and end of the world crap? Shame on you KTSA for having such rational illuminaries as doomsday prophet Pastor Hagee on primetime radio to scare the shit out of the older folk a couple of day ago.

[smeagol]

How come these pseudo-Christians who predict the Rapture to the second never lose their credibility when they wake up the day aftyer and nothing has happened?

[jochhejaam]

http://www.geocities.com/tulipsthorns/hagee.jpg
Damn you Hagee!!(in best jon stewart style)

Can we cut the bible prophesy and end of the world crap? Shame on you KTSA for having such rational illuminaries as doomsday prophet Pastor Hagee on primetime radio to scare the shit out of the older folk a couple of day ago.
Haven't heard about this but yes, shame on Hagee if he claimed to know what God says "no one, not even the Son of Man (Jesus), knows" i.e., the Day or Hour of Christ's second coming"

On the other hand, if you're right with God there should be no fear.

God has a simple plan for removing this fear...

[Nbadan]

Hagee called this the time of the 'false peace'. All the bad stuff comes later.

[jochhejaam]

Hagee called this the time of the 'false peace'. All the bad stuff comes later.
Scripture has this to say; 1 Thess. 5: 1-3
1 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

<I don't think we've hardly reached the place on planet Earth where the perception is that "peace and safety" rules and reigns.>





I'll add the rest of the verses that are relevant to the topic for those that are interested.

4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

[RandomGuy]

Of the 2000 different surviving versions of the bible manuscript only, 200 or so actually had the book of revalation in it, as it was veiwed as being cotroversial, and not in line with real christian teachings.

[scott]

The world is full of many great Christians who serve humanity well with their kindness, humility, and charity. Hagee is not one of those people.

[Yonivore]

The world is full of many great Christians who serve humanity well with their kindness, humility, and charity. Hagee is not one of those people.
He also doesn't know scripture very well.

[RandomGuy]

In 2003 the San Antonio Express-News reported that, in 2001 alone, John Hagee had received over 1.25 million dollars in total compensation for his position as CEO at his non-profit corporation Global Evangelism Television (GETV). This made him one of the highest-paid televangelists in 2001. [5]

According to the Form 990 that GETV filed for tax year 2003, Hagee that year received almost a million dollars in compensation for his work for GETV, which amounted to approximately 16 hours per week. [6] Because he worked "80 hours a week" writing books, singing songs, meeting international dignitaries and answering the call to preach the word of God, John Hagee said: "I deserve every dime I'm getting." One internet critic, also an Evangelical Christian, has an open letter to him. [7]


And while watchdogs and outside observers may feel differently, many of his church members, upon learning about his compensation after services, agreed with Hagee's assessment that he was worth every dime.

In addition to his work for GETV, Hagee supplements his income with the profits generated by a number of best-selling books he has authored.

Hagee said he was certain his finances complied with IRS requirements because he hired tax lawyers and accountants to make sure that his books complied with tax laws. He said he is prepared for the IRS, if ever it decides to conduct an investigation.

Hagee said, 'We want a set of books so that when the IRS comes in here and looks they'll say, those people are clean,'" Hagee said. "And I am waiting for the day that the IRS is going to come look at our books. I have spent a chunk of money waiting for them." [5]

[xrayzebra]

How come these pseudo-Christians who predict the Rapture to the second never lose their credibility when they wake up the day aftyer and nothing has happened?


I guess the same reason that dimm-o-craps keep voting for dimm-o-craps. :lol

[boutons_]

I remember some E-N report about a year where Hagee and his wife paid themselves about $2.5M/year. Obviously, no vow of poverty.

Also very obviously, gluttony is one of 7 Cardinal sins he takes a pass on.

"The Business of America is Business", and "Religion" is a huge business.

[Phenomanul]

How come these pseudo-Christians who predict the Rapture to the second never lose their credibility when they wake up the day aftyer and nothing has happened?

That's why.... cause maybe they were never Christians to begin with...


Prophecy, and the Appocalypse are very subjective subjects.... all that's for sure, is that no one knows the day, the hour, or the minute of the coming of Jesus... or the end of the world for that matter... Sure, there are 'signs' but he who claims to know the day is a false prophet....

[Ya Vez]

yeah peace my ass.... there are wars and rumors of wars everywhere..... lol...

[Old School Chic]

That's why.... cause maybe they were never Christians to begin with...


Prophecy, and the Appocalypse are very subjective subjects.... all that's for sure, is that no one knows the day, the hour, or the minute of the coming of Jesus... or the end of the world for that matter... Sure, there are 'signs' but he who claims to know the day is a false prophet....


:tu

[exstatic]

If there is, in fact, a Rapture, you can be sure Hagee's fat ass will still be here afterwards.

[Old School Chic]

If there is, in fact, a Rapture, you can be sure Hagee's fat ass will still be here afterwards.


:lmao

[Nbadan]

Hagee has decided he is gonna do everything he can to make sure the rapture happens...


Evangelical "Christians" are part of the propaganda show. Three thousand of them, under the lead of the Rev. John C. Hagee, are heading to Washington for a "Washington/Israel summit" to demand, needlessly, that the neocon Bush regime show "stronger support for Israel."

Present at Rev. Hagee's "Washington/Israel Summit" will be Israel's former Minister of Defense, Lt. Gen. Moshe Ya'alon, Israeli Ambassador Daniel Ayalon, Republican National Committee Chairman Ken Mehlman, Republican Senators Sam Brownback and Rick Santorum, the Rev. Jerry Falwell, and Gary Bauer.

David Brog, former chief of staff for Republican Sen. Arlen Specter, has gone to work for Rev. Hagee. Brog, who is Jewish, says he works for Hagee's evangelical enterprise because "we're bringing into a pro-Israel camp millions of Christians who love Israel and giving them a political voice. Israel's enemies are our enemies, and this group instinctively understands that." Brog goes on to say that Hagee's evangelicals understand that they are not supposed to talk about Jesus, only about saving Israel: "Christians who work with Jews in supporting Israel realize how sensitive we are in talking about Jesus. They realize it will interfere with what they are trying to do."

Gentle reader, is this an admission that evangelicals have set aside Jesus for war? Do these bloody-minded evangelicals really believe they will be wafted to Heaven for helping Israel involve the U.S. in more war? Have evangelicals forgotten that "an eye for an eye" is Old Testament? "Turn the other cheek" is New Testament.

Antiwar (http://www.antiwar.com/roberts/?articleid=9317)

[exstatic]

Gentle reader, is this an admission that evangelicals have set aside Jesus for war?

That's what I was thinking. I thought the deal was "spread the word" no matter how annoying or Moonie-like they became.

[Phenomanul]

That's what I was thinking. I thought the deal was "spread the word" no matter how annoying or Moonie-like they became.


Don't judge the many on account of the few...

[xrayzebra]

I am just wondering. Why is everyone so upset about Hagee? Doesn't he have
his congregation? Are they upset?

Is it that some on this board are very, very jealous or envious?

It is just a thought.

One thing more, do you really think he or his congregation cares what you think?

[Phenomanul]

I am just wondering. Why is everyone so upset about Hagee? Doesn't he have
his congregation? Are they upset?

Is it that some on this board are very, very jealous or envious?

It is just a thought.

One thing more, do you really think he or his congregation cares what you think?


XRay... this doesn't help.

Hagee's brand of teaching (on this front) is counter to the biblical teaching regarding the subject. They should know better than to meddle with Middle East politics... and in doing so provocate a further alienation the Christian community.

It's not the best way to fight this fight... or should I say, not the best way of supporting Israel.... We are called to pray for Israel... not join them in arms (especially at the whim of Israelli leaders who lack the ability to seek wisdom from above).

[xrayzebra]

XRay... this doesn't help.

Hagee's brand of teaching (on this front) is counter to the biblical teaching regarding the subject. They should know better than to meddle with Middle East politics... and in doing so provocate a further alienation the Christian community.

It's not the best way to fight this fight... or should I say, not the best way of supporting Israel.... We are called to pray for Israel... not join them in arms (especially at the whim of Israelli leaders who lack the ability to seek wisdom from above).

I have no desire to engage you on the interpretation of the bible. There
are upteen hundred religions in this world, all based on their reading of
the bible. All claiming to be the true religion.

I would hazard a guess that Hagee has as many rights as you and I have
in expressing his view on any subject. I, nor you, have to agree with him.
Just a I don't agree with Jesse Jackson shaking down industries and claiming
to be a religious leader. But that again is my opinion and you don't have
to agree with that.

But I do think much of what I have read on this board is not because
some disagree with Hagee, but because they are jealous of the influence
he has with people. And the influence cant be denied. He has the
followers to prove it. Just as Jesse does.

[Phenomanul]

I have no desire to engage you on the interpretation of the bible. There
are upteen hundred religions in this world, all based on their reading of
the bible. All claiming to be the true religion.

I would hazard a guess that Hagee has as many rights as you and I have
in expressing his view on any subject. I, nor you, have to agree with him.
Just a I don't agree with Jesse Jackson shaking down industries and claiming
to be a religious leader. But that again is my opinion and you don't have
to agree with that.

But I do think much of what I have read on this board is not because
some disagree with Hagee, but because they are jealous of the influence
he has with people. And the influence cant be denied. He has the
followers to prove it. Just as Jesse does.

I'm not claiming to have superior interpretation... but regarding this subject --- it's really not up for debate... JESUS said, 'no man, knoweth the time or the day of the coming of the Son of Man'

So why would Hagee know? When not even the Angels in heaven do?

The fact that he has followers means nothing. Especially in light of the fact that his teaching on this front is erred -- according to the Bible and not to me. Cause really, how else could you interpret the quoted scripture above?

Did Hagee not learn from the Jehova's Witnesses movement who also did this very stunt...4...5... 6... times? man, I've lost count. This is truly discrediting to the Christian community. And so you better believe that I wouldn't want to be associated with him or his teachings... nor should any other Christian for that matter.

[xrayzebra]

^^Have it your way. You will with or without my permission.

Have a nice day and week. I have no quarrel with you or your religion, about
religion.

One think I feel sure of: When the day of judgement does come, I think that you
will find people of all faiths there. Christians, Jews and Muslims or whatever.
I think you will find the bible says there is only one unforgivable sin. Not believing
in God. How someone finds God is very personal and no man can be the judge
of that. My final word.

[Spurminator]

I am just wondering. Why is everyone so upset about Hagee? Doesn't he have
his congregation? Are they upset?

Is it that some on this board are very, very jealous or envious?

It is just a thought.

One thing more, do you really think he or his congregation cares what you think?


You're right. I was also jealous of David Koresh, but I doubt his followers cared.

What a ridiculous set of questions. Maybe Christians don't like people like Hagee being figureheads for what non-Christians don't like about our beliefs.

[clambake]

I don't think anyone here is jealous of a huckster who's victims are gulible sheep.

[Phenomanul]

^^Have it your way. You will with or without my permission.

Have a nice day and week. I have no quarrel with you or your religion, about
religion.

One think I feel sure of: When the day of judgement does come, I think that you
will find people of all faiths there. Christians, Jews and Muslims or whatever.
I think you will find the bible says there is only one unforgivable sin. Not believing
in God. How someone finds God is very personal and no man can be the judge
of that. My final word.


Settle down... I was addressing the fact that calling the posters in here envious or jealous of Hagee would solve nothing.

With regards to what you just wrote, I agree with some of it.... but I believe that JESUS is the only path to the Father... and so I find it highly unlikely that practitioners of Islam... who's very creed denounces JESUS' divinity will find themselves along that path (just my opinion)... as for Messianic Jews, Catholics, Methodists, Episcopalians, Baptists, Pentecostals etc... yeah... we will see many of them in Heaven irregardless of the trivial differences in non-critical doctrines...

[clambake]

Yep, I guess Islam is the only one that got it wrong.

[Phenomanul]

Yep, I guess Islam is the only one that got it wrong.


Jehova's Witnesses, Mormons...

BTW none of the other denominations mentioned above are 100% free of doctrinal error.... with regards to the one critical truth however... they all believe JESUS is the exclusive way to the Father.

[gtownspur]

I don't think anyone here is jealous of a huckster who's victims are gulible sheep.

NbadAn?

[clambake]

It is your belief that makes your God exist.

It is their belief that makes their God exist.

The score is tied. Going into overtime. Neither team has the advantage.

[Phenomanul]

It is your belief that makes your God exist.

It is their belief that makes their God exist.

The score is tied. Going into overtime. Neither team has the advantage.


Simplistic view... simplistic conclusion...

There's a little more to it than that....

[clambake]

Very little. What's left is in the mind of the beholder.

To say your God is THE God is laughable.

[Spurminator]

To say your God is THE God is laughable.

Why?

Frankly, I'd question the strength of someone's faith if they thought that because other people believe in other gods, those gods must also exist.

You don't have to believe in the Christian God, but if you do, it follows that you should believe He is the One True God, since He said He is.

[clambake]

He said that huh? Are you having a converstion with him now?

If so , would you ask him about these other Gods so we can clear this up once and for all?

[boutons_]

"you should believe He is the One True God, since He said He is"

Well, that's just political posturing and group psychology.

When a group is recruiting members, they are interested in having high barriers to membership, and in denigrating other groups and creeds.

It's just not politically expedient for a relgious group to say their God and selected beliefs are not only God/religion/worldview. That's politically weak because it allows for ecumenical credence in other Gods/religions/worldviews, absolutely the last thing a political religious group wants to do.

Of course, these "We're Number One" religious types have been programmed to believe that their religion is 100% pure, true, and exclusive of all other religions, and has no political history or objectives. And the biggest political hustle and recruiting tool is that outside of Christ, you go to hell for eternity.

[RandomGuy]

I am just wondering. Why is everyone so upset about Hagee? Doesn't he have
his congregation? Are they upset?

Is it that some on this board are very, very jealous or envious?

It is just a thought.

One thing more, do you really think he or his congregation cares what you think?

I am not upset about this guy.

He is a good subject for satire and a bit of scorn.

Charismatic leaders always have followers who will blindly believe in them, no matter what, so it doestn' surprise me that he still has an ardent congregation.

But the rest of us have enough information to see him for what he is.

[Phenomanul]

He said that huh? Are you having a converstion with him now?

If so , would you ask him about these other Gods so we can clear this up once and for all?


Why? Just to satisfy YOUR own lack of faith... He doesn't work that way. If He did we would all be robots, or drones, for lack of a better word... the fact is you are free to believe in whatever suits your fancy... if you don't believe in GOD that is your perogative....

What we believe will happen to you however is irrelevant and inconsequential to the fact that you yourself don't believe it... so why bother fretting over something you consider false? Do what you please.

[Phenomanul]

"you should believe He is the One True God, since He said He is"

Well, that's just political posturing and group psychology.

When a group is recruiting members, they are interested in having high barriers to membership, and in denigrating other groups and creeds.

It's just not politically expedient for a relgious group to say their God and selected beliefs are not only God/religion/worldview. That's politically weak because it allows for ecumenical credence in other Gods/religions/worldviews, absolutely the last thing a political religious group wants to do.

Of course, these "We're Number One" religious types have been programmed to believe that their religion is 100% pure, true, and exclusive of all other religions, and has no political history or objectives. And the biggest political hustle and recruiting tool is that outside of Christ, you go to hell for eternity.

''ignore the hate'' :wakeup

[clambake]

YOUR beliefs have a way of infecting Americas way of life. Stick to cramming it down the throats of YOUR fellow robots.

[Phenomanul]

YOUR beliefs have a way of infecting Americas way of life. Stick to cramming it down the throats of YOUR fellow robots.


If by 'infecting' you mean taking care of the poor and needy, widows, and orphans... then by all accounts yes. Otherwise drop the act. No one is cramming anything down your throat...

[clambake]

So these are all deeds you wouldn't perform if it weren't for God?

That's interesting!

[Phenomanul]

So these are all deeds you wouldn't perform if it weren't for God?

That's interesting!


No.... striving to be Christ-like compels me to do them while trying to learn that my needs shouldn't always be the most important thing. Other people do it only with spare money or time... or to get tax-breaks -- I try for that not to be the case in my personal case...

But you still haven't shown me how we are 'infecting' others... especially when the palette of words you could have used included 'influence', 'shape', 'mold'... your word choice was rather negative in connotation... which precluded the latter half of your argument to hold any weight other than that of an opinion.

[Phenomanul]

Anyway, I'm out... I have some work I have to get to...

[Spurminator]

He said that huh? Are you having a converstion with him now?

If so , would you ask him about these other Gods so we can clear this up once and for all?


He said it in the Bible, and I believe the Bible to be true. Thus, I believe God is the only God.

It's not that difficult to understand.

[Spurminator]

Well, that's just political posturing and group psychology.

No, it's Scripture.

[clambake]

What some of you don't understand is that God did not create man.

Man created God.

[boutons_]

"Scripture."

... yep, YOUR Scripture, and like everybody's "Scripture", human intellect and critical thinking are extinguished.

Surely "God" gave us an intellect so that it could extinguished so facilely?

[Spurminator]

:wtf

No, not MY Scripture... the Scripture of the Christian religion. The Bible.

If I believe Scripture to be true (and written by God through men), and Scripture tells me God is the only true God, then I believe it.

A = B, B = C, thus A = C.

There's nothing anti-intellectual about it.

[gtownspur]

What some of you don't understand is that God did not create man.

Man created God.


wHOa!!!!!!!!

You are so deep. :rolleyes

[Crookshanks]

The Christian religion is founded upon the resurrection of Jesus Christ. If that is not true, then everything else is meaningless. The following article is long, but it's a pretty fast read. If you want to know why born-again christians believe in a living Savior, then read the article. The author, Josh McDowell, was a sceptic - a non-believer. While in college, he set about to prove that christianity is a myth and couldn't be believed. The more he researched, the more evidence he found that proved the Bible to be true. As a result, he became a believer.

==========================

Evidence for the Resurrection
by Josh McDowell

For centuries many of the world's distinguished philosophers have assaulted Christianity as being irrational, superstitious and absurd. Many have chosen simply to ignore the central issue of the resurrection. Others have tried to explain it away through various theories. But the historical evidence just can't be discounted.

A student at the University of Uruguay said to me. "Professor McDowell, why can't you refute Christianity?"

"For a very simple reason," I answered. "I am not able to explain away an event in history--the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

How can we explain the empty tomb? Can it possibly be accounted for by any natural cause?


A QUESTION OF HISTORY
After more than 700 hours of studying this subject, I have come to the conclusion that the resurrection of Jesus Christ is either one of the most wicked, vicious, heartless hoaxes ever foisted on the minds of human beings--or it is the most remarkable fact of history.

Here are some of the facts relevant to the resurrection: Jesus of Nazareth, a Jewish prophet who claimed to be the Christ prophesied in the Jewish Scriptures, was arrested, was judged a political criminal, and was crucified. Three days after His death and burial, some women who went to His tomb found the body gone. In subsequent weeks, His disciples claimed that God had raised Him from the dead and that He appeared to them various times before ascending into heaven.

From that foundation, Christianity spread throughout the Roman Empire and has continued to exert great influence down through the centuries.


LIVING WITNESSES
The New Testament accounts of the resurrection were being circulated within the lifetimes of men and women alive at the time of the resurrection. Those people could certainly have confirmed or denied the accuracy of such accounts.

The writers of the four Gospels either had themselves been witnesses or else were relating the accounts of eyewitnesses of the actual events. In advocating their case for the gospel, a word that means "good news," the apostles appealed (even when confronting their most severe opponents) to common knowledge concerning the facts of the resurrection.

F. F. Bruce, Rylands professor of biblical criticism and exegesis at the University of Manchester, says concerning the value of the New Testament records as primary sources: "Had there been any tendency to depart from the facts in any material respect, the possible presence of hostile witnesses in the audience would have served as a further corrective."


IS THE NEW TESTAMENT RELIABLE?
Because the New Testament provides the primary historical source for information on the resurrection, many critics during the 19th century attacked the reliability of these biblical documents.

By the end of the 1 9th century, however, archaeological discoveries had confirmed the accuracy of the New Testament manuscripts. Discoveries of early papyri bridged the gap between the time of Christ and existing manuscripts from a later date.

Those findings increased scholarly confidence in the reliability of the Bible. William F. Albright, who in his day was the world's foremost biblical archaeologist, said: "We can already say emphatically that there is no longer any solid basis for dating any book of the New Testament after about A.D. 80, two full generations before the date between 130 and 150 given by the more radical New Testament critics of today."

Coinciding with the papyri discoveries, an abundance of other manuscripts came to light (over 24,000 copies of early New Testament manuscripts are known to be in existence today). The historian Luke wrote of "authentic evidence" concerning the resurrection. Sir William Ramsay, who spent 15 years attempting to undermine Luke credentials as a historian, and to refute the reliability of the New Testament, finally concluded: "Luke is a historian of the first rank . . . This author should be placed along with the very greatest of historians. "


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I claim to be an historian. My approach to Classics is historical. And I tell you that the evidence for the life, the death, and the resurrection of Christ is better authenticated than most of the facts of ancient history . . .
E. M. Blaiklock
Professor of Classics
Auckland University


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


BACKGROUND
The New Testament witnesses were fully aware of the background against which the resurrection took place. The body of Jesus, in accordance with Jewish burial custom, was wrapped in a linen cloth. About 100 pounds of aromatic spices, mixed together to form a gummy substance, were applied to the wrappings of cloth about the body. After the body was placed in a solid rock tomb, an extremely large stone was rolled against the entrance of the tomb. Large stones weighing approximately two tons were normally rolled (by means of levers) against a tomb entrance.

A Roman guard of strictly disciplined fighting men was stationed to guard the tomb. This guard affixed on the tomb the Roman seal, which was meant to "prevent any attempt at vandalizing the sepulcher. Anyone trying to move the stone from the tomb's entrance would have broken the seal and thus incurred the wrath of Roman law.

But three days later the tomb was empty. The followers of Jesus said He had risen from the dead. They reported that He appeared to them during a period of 40 days, showing Himself to them by many "infallible proofs." Paul the apostle recounted that Jesus appeared to more than 500 of His followers at one time, the majority of whom were still alive and who could confirm what Paul wrote. So many security precautions were taken with the trial, crucifixion, burial, entombment, sealing, and guarding of Christ's tomb that it becomes very difficult for critics to defend their position that Christ did not rise from the dead. Consider these facts:

FACT #1: BROKEN ROMAN SEAL
As we have said, the first obvious fact was the breaking of the seal that stood for the power and authority of the Roman Empire. The consequences of breaking the seal were extremely severe. The FBI and CIA of the Roman Empire were called into action to find the man or men who were responsible. If they were apprehended, it meant automatic execution by crucifixion upside down. People feared the breaking of the seal. Jesus' disciples displayed signs of cowardice when they hid themselves. Peter, one of these disciples, went out and denied Christ three times.

FACT #2: EMPTY TOMB
As we have already discussed, another obvious fact after the resurrection was the empty tomb. The disciples of Christ did not go off to Athens or Rome to preach that Christ was raised from the dead. Rather, they went right back to the city of Jerusalem, where, if what they were teaching was false, the falsity would be evident. The empty tomb was "too notorious to be denied." Paul Althaus states that the resurrection "could have not been maintained in Jerusalem for a single day, for a single hour, if the emptiness of the tomb had not been established as a fact for all concerned."

Both Jewish and Roman sources and traditions admit an empty tomb. Those resources range from Josephus to a compilation of fifth-century Jewish writings called the "Toledoth Jeshu." Dr. Paul Maier calls this "positive evidence from a hostile source, which is the strongest kind of historical evidence. In essence, this means that if a source admits a fact decidedly not in its favor, then that fact is genuine."

Gamaliel, who was a member of the Jewish high court, the Sanhedrin, put forth the suggestion that the rise of the Christian movement was God's doing; he could not have done that if the tomb were still occupied, or if the Sanhedrin knew the whereabouts of Christ's body.

Paul Maier observes that " . . . if all the evidence is weighed carefully and fairly, it is indeed justifiable, according to the canons of historical research, to conclude that the sepulcher of Joseph of Arimathea, in which Jesus was buried, was actually empty on the morning of the first Easter. And no shred of evidence has yet been discovered in literary sources, epigraphy, or archaeology that would disprove this statement."


FACT #3: LARGE STONE MOVED
On that Sunday morning the first thing that impressed the people who approached the tomb was the unusual position of the one and a half to two ton stone that had been lodged in front of the doorway. All the Gospel writers mention it.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There exists no document from the ancient world, witnessed by so excellent a set of textual and historical testimonies . . . Skepticism regarding the historical credentials of Christianity is based upon an irrational bias.


Clark Pinnock
Mcmaster University


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Those who observed the stone after the resurrection describe its position as having been rolled up a slope away not just from the entrance of the tomb, but from the entire massive sepulcher. It was in such a position that it looked as if it had been picked up and carried away. Now, I ask you, if the disciples had wanted to come in, tiptoe around the sleeping guards, and then roll the stone over and steal Jesus' body, how could they have done that without the guards' awareness?


FACT #4: ROMAN GUARD GOES AWOL
The Roman guards fled. They left their place of responsibility. How can their attrition he explained, when Roman military discipline was so exceptional? Justin, in Digest #49, mentions all the offenses that required the death penalty. The fear of their superiors' wrath and the possibility of death meant that they paid close attention to the minutest details of their jobs. One way a guard was put to death was by being stripped of his clothes and then burned alive in a fire started with his garments. If it was not apparent which soldier had failed in his duty, then lots were drawn to see which one wand be punished with death for the guard unit's failure. Certainly the entire unit would not have fallen asleep with that kind of threat over their heads. Dr. George Currie, a student of Roman military discipline, wrote that fear of punishment "produced flawless attention to duty, especially in the night watches."


FACT #5: GRAVECLOTHES TELL A TALE
In a literal sense, against all statements to the contrary, the tomb was not totally empty--because of an amazing phenomenon. John, a disciple of Jesus, looked over to the place where the body of Jesus had lain, and there were the grave clothes, in the form of the body, slightly caved in and empty--like the empty chrysalis of a caterpillar's cocoon. That's enough to make a believer out of anybody. John never did get over it. The first thing that stuck in the minds of the disciples was not the empty tomb, but rather the empty grave clothes--undisturbed in form and position.


FACT #6: JESUS' APPEARANCES CONFIRMED
Christ appeared alive on several occasions after the cataclysmic events of that first Easter . When studying an event in history, it is important to know whether enough people who were participants or eyewitnesses to the event were alive when the facts about the event were published. To know this is obviously helpful in ascertaining the accuracy of the published report. If the number of eyewitnesses is substantial, the event can he regarded as fairly well established. For instance, if we all witness a murder, and a later police report turns out to he a fabrication of lies, we as eyewitnesses can refute it.


OVER 500 WITNESSES
Several very important factors arc often overlooked when considering Christ's post-resurrection appearances to individuals. The first is the large number of witnesses of Christ after that resurrection morning. One of the earliest records of Christ's appearing after the resurrection is by Paul. The apostle appealed to his audience's knowledge of the fact that Christ had been seen by more than 500 people at one time. Paul reminded them that the majority of those people were still alive and could be questioned. Dr. Edwin M. Yamauchi, associate professor of history at Miami University in Oxford, Ohio, emphasizes: "What gives a special authority to the list (of witnesses) as historical evidence is the reference to most of the five hundred brethren being still alive. St. Paul says in effect, 'If you do not believe me, you can ask them.' Such a statement in an admittedly genuine letter written within thirty years of the event is almost as strong evidence as one could hope to get for something that happened nearly two thousand years ago." Let's take the more than 500 witnesses who saw Jesus alive after His death and burial, and place them in a courtroom. Do you realize that if each of those 500 people were to testify for only six minutes, including cross-examination, you would have an amazing 50 hours of firsthand testimony? Add to this the testimony of many other eyewitnesses and you would well have the largest and most lopsided trial in history.


HOSTILE WITNESSES
Another factor crucial to interpreting Christ's appearances is that He also appeared to those who were hostile or unconvinced.

Over and over again, I have read or heard people comment that Jesus was seen alive after His death and burial only by His friends and followers. Using that argument, they attempt to water down the overwhelming impact of the multiple eyewitness accounts. But that line of reasoning is so pathetic it hardly deserves comment. No author or informed individual would regard Saul of Tarsus as being a follower of Christ. The facts show the exact opposite. Saul despised Christ and persecuted Christ's followers. It was a life-shattering experience when Christ appeared to him. Although he was at the time not a disciple, he later became the apostle Paul, one of the greatest witnesses for the truth of the resurrection.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If the New Testament were a collection of secular writings, their authenticity would generally be regarded as beyond all doubt.


F. F. Bruce
Manchester University


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The argument that Christ's appearances were only to followers is an argument for the most part from silence, and arguments from silence can be dangerous. It is equally possible that all to whom Jesus appeared became followers. No one acquainted with the facts can accurately say that Jesus appeared to just "an insignificant few."

Christians believe that Jesus was bodily resurrected in time and space by the supernatural power of God. The difficulties of belief may be great, but the problems inherent in unbelief present even greater difficulties.

The theories advanced to explain the resurrection by "natural causes" are weak; they actually help to build confidence in the truth of the resurrection.


THE WRONG TOMB?
A theory propounded by Kirsopp Lake assumes that the women who reported that the body was missing had mistakenly gone to the wrong tomb. If so, then the disciples who went to check up on the women's statement must have also gone to the wrong tomb. We may be certain, however, that Jewish authorities, who asked for a Roman guard to be stationed at the tomb to prevent Jesus' body from being stolen, would not have been mistaken about the location. Nor would the Roman guards, for they were there!

If the resurrection-claim was merely because of a geographical mistake, the Jewish authorities would have lost no time in producing the body from the proper tomb, thus effectively quenching for all time any rumor resurrection.


HALLUCINATIONS?
Another attempted explanation claims that the appearances of Jesus after the resurrection were either illusions or hallucinations. Unsupported by the psychological principles governing the appearances of hallucinations, this theory also does not coincide with the historical situation. Again, where was the actual body, and why wasn't it produced?


DID JESUS SWOON?
Another theory, popularized by Venturini several centuries ago, is often quoted today. This is the swoon theory, which says that Jesus didn't die; he merely fainted from exhaustion and loss of blood. Everyone thought Him dead, but later He resuscitated and the disciples thought it to be a resurrection. Skeptic David Friedrich Strauss--certainly no believer in the resurrection--gave the deathblow to any thought that Jesus revived from a swoon: "It is impossible that a being who had stolen half-dead out of the sepulchre, who crept about weak and ill, wanting medical treatment, who required bandaging, strengthening and indulgence, and who still at last yielded to His sufferings, could have given to the disciples the impression that He was a Conqueror over death and the grave, the Prince of Life,


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For the New Testament of Acts, the confirmation of historicity is overwhelming. Any attempt to reject its basic historicity, even in matters of detail, must now appear absurd. Roman historians have long taken it for granted.

A. N. Sherwin-White
Classical Roman Historian


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

an impression which lay at the bottom of their future ministry. Such a resuscitation could only have weakened the impression which He had made upon them in life and in death, at the most could only have given it an elegiac voice, but could by no possibility have changed their sorrow into enthusiasm, have elevated their reverence into worship."


THE BODY STOLEN?
Then consider the theory that the body was stolen by the disciples while the guards slept. The depression and cowardice of the disciples provide a hard-hitting argument against their suddenly becoming so brave and daring as to face a detachment of soldiers at the tomb and steal the body. They were in no mood to attempt anything like that.

The theory that the Jewish or Roman authorities moved Christ's body is no more reasonable an explanation for the empty tomb than theft by the disciples. If the authorities had the body in their possession or knew where it was, why, when the disciples were preaching the resurrection in Jerusalem, didn't they explain: "Wait! We moved the body, see, He didn't rise from the grave"?

And if such a rebuttal failed, why didn't they explain exactly where Jesus' body lay? If this failed, why didn't they recover the corpse, put it on a cart, and wheel it through the center of Jerusalem? Such an action would have destroyed Christianity--not in the cradle, but in the womb!


THE RESURRECTION IS A FACT
Professor Thomas Arnold, for 14 years a headmaster of Rugby, author of the famous, History of Rome, and appointed to the chair of modern history at Oxford, was well acquainted with the value of evidence in determining historical facts. This great scholar said: "I have been used for many years to study the histories of other times, and to examine and weigh the evidence of those who have written about them, and I know of no one fact in the history of mankind which is proved by better and fuller evidence of every sort, to the understanding of a fair inquirer, than the great sign which God bath given us that Christ died and rose again from the dead." Brooke Foss Westcott, an English scholar, said: "raking all the evidence together, it is not too much to say that there is no historic incident better or more variously supported than the resurrection of Christ. Nothing but the antecedent assumption that it must be false could have suggested the idea of deficiency in the proof of it."


REAL PROOF: THE DISCIPLES' LIVES
But the most telling testimony of all must be the lives of those early Christians. We must ask ourselves: What caused them to go everywhere telling the message of the risen Christ?

Had there been any visible benefits accrued to them from their efforts--prestige, wealth, increased social status or material benefits--we might logically attempt to account for their actions, for their whole-hearted and total allegiance to this "risen Christ ."

As a reward for their efforts, however, those early Christians were beaten, stoned to death, thrown to the lions, tortured and crucified. Every conceivable method was used to stop them from talking.

Yet, they laid down their lives as the ultimate proof of their complete confidence in the truth of their message.


WHERE DO YOU STAND?
How do you evaluate this overwhelming historical evidence? What is your decision about the fact of Christ's empty tomb? What do you think of Christ?

When I was confronted with the overwhelming evidence for Christ's resurrection, I had to ask the logical question: "What difference does all this evidence make to me? What difference does it make whether or not I believe Christ rose again and died on the cross for my sins!' The answer is put best by something Jesus said to a man who doubted--Thomas. Jesus told him: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me" (John 14:6).

On the basis of all the evidence for Christ's resurrection, and considering the fact that Jesus offers forgiveness of sin and an eternal relationship with God, who would be so foolhardy as to reject Him? Christ is alive! He is living today.

[boutons_]

The death/resurrection of Christ is THE core mystery, lesson of Christ.
I personally have no doubt about the death/resurrection. Entities of highly evolved spirituality have access to unlimited power and are capable of behaving outside the laws we think are unbreakable.

Unfortunately, Christmas is much more effective for moving the merchandise than Easter. :)

[scott]

Jehova's Witnesses, Mormons...

BTW none of the other denominations mentioned above are 100% free of doctrinal error.... with regards to the one critical truth however... they all believe JESUS is the exclusive way to the Father.

I'm not an expert on Judism, so help me out hegamboa. Jews believe Jesus is the exclusive way to the Father?

[Nbadan]

Just in case you missed William Pitt's new article on rapture worshippers...

Cheerleading the Apocalypse
By William Rivers Pitt
t r u t h o u t | Perspective
Monday 17 July 2006


Who knows but the world may end tonight?

- Robert Browning

---

The last several years have established, beyond doubt, that the Bush administration is at best inept, and at worst deliberately destructive. Watching Bush observe the carnage with a "What me worry?" look on his face has been disgusting, if not terribly surprising. The United States has abandoned its position of leadership on the world stage, and the mayhem erupting in the Middle East, combined with provocative actions from North Korea, is a direct result of that.

If further proof of this is required, look no further than the exchange between Mr. Bush and Russian president Vladimir Putin on Saturday. Bush offered a critique of Russia's so-called democracy, and Putin shot back, "We certainly would not want to have the same kind of democracy as they have in Iraq, I will tell you quite honestly." Bush tried to laugh it off, but his face purpled with rage. And so the president of the United States is publicly slapped by the leader of Russia, and we are all lessened and shamed by it, because Putin was correct.

Much of what is happening has come about, simply, because the Bush administration is run by, and heeds the advice of, stone cold crazy people. Inside the administration lurks Dick Cheney, who with his proxy Don Rumsfeld engineered the Iraq fiasco. On the outside, and enjoying far more credibility than is deserved, are voices like William Kristol's.

And then, of course, there is the Republican base, the people who stand by Mr. Bush because they believe him to be the right arm of Jesus Christ. The fundamentalist far-right branch of Christianity that has established itself as the most powerful force in electoral politics is heeded by this administration because they owe their tenure to these people.

A lot of them are thrilled by what is happening in the Middle East. An internet forum called "Rapture Ready" offers some insight into that particular breed of right-wing Christian who cannot wait for the Apocalypse. "Gosh!!!" writes one poster, "Here we are making plans to move to the east coast and we might not even have to move after all. I say, come quickly Lord!!!"

"Israel is not a land of un-walled villages so this is probably a war that will result in that," writes another poster. "Then Gog and Magog will come. But I believe we could be raptured before. I believe before Damascus is destroyed God may rescue His children out of there." Yet another poster writes, "In another thread, someone brought up the fact that the kidnapping of the first Israeli soldier that started this whole thing was on June 25th, and if you count from that day to August 3rd ... it is EXACTLY 40 days!!!!! I find that to be a HUGE coincidence."

Etc.

Mr. Bush is accounted as the unofficial leader of these people, listens to them, and has surrounded himself with violent men who share violent dreams. An analysis of apocalyptic scripture could, perhaps, reveal the manner in which a combination of stupidity, extremism and a total lack of morality is the key which will unlock the end of days. In the meantime, I am reminded of those bumper stickers which can be seen on the roads from time to time. "In case of Rapture," they read, "this car will be empty." Once, I saw a witty rejoinder to this sentiment on another bumper: "In case of Rapture, can I have your car?"

If I were making bumper stickers, I might add a new wrinkle: "In case of Rapture, can I have my country back?"

Truthout (http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/071706J.shtml)

[Yonivore]

I'm not an expert on Judism, so help me out hegamboa. Jews believe Jesus is the exclusive way to the Father?
Jews for Jesus do.

[RandomGuy]

Just in case you missed William Pitt's new article on rapture worshippers...

Cheerleading the Apocalypse
By William Rivers Pitt
t r u t h o u t | Perspective
Monday 17 July 2006



Truthout (http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/071706J.shtml)


Sigh. Closer to the truth than most Bushies would admit.

Not a rational way to run a country.

[Nbadan]

Rapture letter anyone?

Today's tip from that board offers you a "Rapture letter" that you should send to family and friends who will be wondering "where you are" soon. (Either that or they will be doing Snoopy dances):


Dear Friend;

This message has been sent to you by a friend or a relative who has recently
disappeared along with millions and millions of people around the world.

The reason they chose to send you this letter is because they cared about you
and would like you to know the truth about where they went.

This may come as a shock to you, but the one who sent you this has been taken
up to heaven.

If you read a Bible, you will see that after chapter three in the book of Revelation,
the church is no longer mentioned as being on earth. (The church are the believers
in Jesus Christ, not the buildings in which people meet.)

In the Bible, 1 Thessalonians Chapter 4 verses 16 and 17 tell how Jesus came to take away His church. But, you have to believe the Bible is the Word of God in order to believe this.

I am sure that there will be a lot of speculation as to what happened to all these people. The theories of some scientists and world leaders will have so much credibility that most of the world will believe them.

It will sound like the truth!

But, there is only one truth. And, that truth is that Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, came back to earth and took with Him to Heaven all who believed in Him and made Him their Lord.

If you would like to give your life to Jesus Christ and be born again, it is not too late. First you must pray to God saying"Father I admit I am a sinner, and I will turn from my sin and do good. I believe that Jesus was your son and that He came here to die for me so that my sins would be forgiven. I ask you to forgive me and I will repent of my sins. In Jesus name I pray."

If you just prayed that prayer and meant it with all your heart, then God will know you as one of His own. You should now seek out others who have also given their lives to Christ, read a Bible daily, and do your best to bring others to Christ.

God bless you.

Rapture Letters (http://www.raptureletters.com/letter.html)

They should include the location of a spare key and their alarm code so someone can get in and feed their pets.

[scott]

Jews for Jesus do.

Most Jews refer to "Jews for Jesus" as "Christians" - especially considering its an organization started by a Baptist minister as a means to reach out to Jews and convert them to Christianity.

[smeagol]

"you should believe He is the One True God, since He said He is"

Well, that's just political posturing and group psychology.

When a group is recruiting members, they are interested in having high barriers to membership, and in denigrating other groups and creeds.

It's just not politically expedient for a relgious group to say their God and selected beliefs are not only God/religion/worldview. That's politically weak because it allows for ecumenical credence in other Gods/religions/worldviews, absolutely the last thing a political religious group wants to do.

Of course, these "We're Number One" religious types have been programmed to believe that their religion is 100% pure, true, and exclusive of all other religions, and has no political history or objectives. And the biggest political hustle and recruiting tool is that outside of Christ, you go to hell for eternity.
It's all in The Bible.

[gameFACE]

Rapture enthusiasts should start a vbookie on the time and day. More importantly - will they get to collect.................

[jochhejaam]

Most Jews refer to "Jews for Jesus" as "Christians" - especially considering its an organization started by a Baptist minister as a means to reach out to Jews and convert them to Christianity.
They are Jewish by birth, they love Jesus and they are Christians.
(I guess that's what you're saying)

[scott]

They are Jewish by birth, they love Jesus and they are Christians.
(I guess that's what you're saying)

Pretty much... there is definitely a distinction between ethnic Jews and Religious Jews. However, it is worth pointing out that Jews for Jesus don't require you be a Jew to be a Jew for Jesus.

[Phenomanul]

I'm not an expert on Judism, so help me out hegamboa. Jews believe Jesus is the exclusive way to the Father?


Messianic Jews would be the proper term....

[Phenomanul]

The commentary from today's Breakpoint program....



The Tragedy of the Religious Left
By Chuck Colson
7/18/2006


Worshipping the Goddess of Tolerance


What do you get when you hold a conference with 1,200 people who are all afraid of offending one another? I’ll tell you what you don’t get. You don’t get unity, and you don’t get agreement on anything.

That’s what happened when the Spiritual Activism Conference took place recently in Washington, D.C. According to the New York Times, this group of religious liberals came together to discuss “taking back religion from the conservative Christians.” But the conference members had trouble getting anything specific done.

The Times hit it right on the nose when it explained, “Turnout at the Spiritual Activism Conference was high, but if the gathering is any indication, the biggest barrier for liberals may be their regard for pluralism: for letting people say what they want, how they want to, and for trying to include everyone’s priorities rather than choosing two or three issues that could inspire a movement.” Never mind even setting policy goals; some conference members were afraid that singing hymns might be enough to upset some members. Instead of coming away with a clear set of objectives, the conference members mostly came away frustrated.

Ironically for a group that prides itself on tolerance, it seems the only thing the conference could agree on was its opposition to the “religious right.” But frustrating as it was for them, the group had to concede that the “religious right” is a lot better at getting things done. Beliefnet suggests this was because “religious conservatives are willing to argue there is one correct view on policy issues.”

You see, that’s the crux of the liberals’ problem. This conflict is not about political or social divisions. It’s about authority—specifically, whether or not Christians are willing to acknowledge that the Bible is our authority.

Tony Campolo certainly recognized this. Though Tony and I disagree on lots of things, I really like Tony. He’s honest, and he loves the Bible. He tried to explain at this conference the necessity of following Scripture. But one participant retorted, “I thought this was a spiritual progressives’ conference. I don’t want to play the game of ‘the Bible says this or that,’ or that we get validation from something other than ourselves.”

There you have it. Validation from ourselves simply means you make up your own god. We Christians may interpret the Bible differently; we may apply it to life differently; we may have arguments over exegesis. But the Bible has to be the ultimate authority. Otherwise we end up worshiping the goddess of tolerance and believing that tolerance takes precedence over truth.

Dorothy Sayers, the great English writer, said it best: “In the world it is called Tolerance, but in hell it is called Despair, the sin that believes in nothing, cares for nothing, seeks to know nothing, interferes with nothing, enjoys nothing, hates nothing, finds purpose in nothing, lives for nothing, and remains alive because there is nothing for which it will die.”

This kind of so-called “tolerance” can never bring people together, but only as we saw in Washington, pull them farther apart.

[Crookshanks]

And then, of course, there is the Republican base, the people who stand by Mr. Bush because they believe him to be the right arm of Jesus Christ.

No, we don't believe him to be the right arm of Jesus; however we do believe that God put him in the White House for such a time as this. And guess what, others believe that too. I was watching a program on the 4th of July and they were talking to a man who had been quite high up in Saddam's army. He is a born-again christian and he said that the believers in Iraq had been praying for years for liberation and they sincerely believe that President Bush is the answer to those prayers.

[clambake]

Poor misguided soul.

[DarkReign]

Watching or hearing Bush try and cross sabres with any other world leader is a thought that should make any American cringe.

Putin would (did) verbally rape Bush sleep deprived and drunk. That, and the fact that Putin has a better grasp of the English language than Bush.

[clambake]

Yep, that was disturbing. Reminds me of boss hog. I'll never complain again about the time he spends in Crawford.