Are Things really So Bad?

[raspsa]

So far, we've lost Nazr and Rasho. We've gained Vaughn, Melzer, Bonner, Williams. We have a good chance of getting Butler and Elson. Assuming we get the last two,in particular Butler, I think the Spurs have done pretty well so far. As Pop said,how much more improvement do you need to get the extra point that would have made the difference last season.. if these guys live up to their potential and contribute even a little bit, I think the Spurs will be in good shape. Plus, we can look to a couple more trades IMO.

[dknights411]

I think the Spurs are in fine shape as well. However, approx. 60% of posters here are convinced that it's the end of the world. :rolleyes

[ChumpDumper]

Contribute to the discussion about Frenchmen's asses or STFU!

[duncan2k5]

we need to do better. we are trying to get a championship...not fill out roster spots

[timvp]

This summer comes down to whether they get Butler or not. Without Butler, this summer will go down as poor. With Butler, it'd be a pretty decent summer.

I'd still like to see Barry traded for a longer and younger player either way.

[conqueso]

So far, we've lost Nazr and Rasho. We've gained Vaughn, Melzer, Bonner, Williams. We have a good chance of getting Butler and Elson. Assuming we get the last two,in particular Butler, I think the Spurs have done pretty well so far. As Pop said,how much more improvement do you need to get the extra point that would have made the difference last season.. if these guys live up to their potential and contribute even a little bit, I think the Spurs will be in good shape. Plus, we can look to a couple more trades IMO.

I'm not going to ridicule you for being too optimistic like many posters likely will. I don't see things as rosy, but for some reason this offseason has turned everyone into a worry wart. Believe it or not, there are also other people around who think more highly of the Spurs' offseason so far than you do. I'm going to remain patient and see what's up come mid-October...stressing out before then is just kind of pointless in my view. I think there are questions more important than whether the Spurs pick up a long athletic three or sign some European post, like: What is going on in Manu's head? How is he going to respond next year? Is Tony going to keep up the pace? Will Tim continue to slip like he did in the regular season, or will he bounce back and dominate like he did in the playoffs? All of those things are worth contemplating. Who we throw our MLE and LLE at seem like a pretty minor things compared to those questions.

[Mr. Body]

This summer comes down to whether they get Butler or not. Without Butler, this summer will go down as poor. With Butler, it'd be a pretty decent summer.

I'd still like to see Barry traded for a longer and younger player either way.

Co-signed. Butler's here? All's right with the world. Butler's gone? Potentially long season.

Would also like Barry traded, but likely it happens mid-season or next summer.

[ChumpDumper]

Right now, nothing much has changed.

If Butler is matched, we'll have to see what happens.

[DuncanInYourFace]

I think people are more concerned about the other teams in the league getting better next year. Heat will be at least as good w/ Wade continuing to dominate. Cavs could give anyone trouble w/ Lebron. Bulls could be contenders. Rockets could be good w/ Yao and T-Mac healthy. Mavs will still be young but have even more experience than last year (though it's really just more experience choking, which they have plenty of already). Phoenix could be really good w/ a healthy Amare, etc.

So in short, I think we are just staying even so far this offseason, whereas a lot of teams seem to be getting a lot better.

[E20]

We lost Rasho and Nazr, got nothing in return. Bonner I don't know about, never seen him play, I don't know how he'll be here. From what I've heard we got Bonner who is supposed to legit and and two rookies, Butler and Elson, who are supposed to be good. We didn't sign Javtokas or Scola and IMO our Frontcourt is weak. The backup guards are another thing as well. Finley played great, but I don't wanna see Barry playing like he did last year during the regular season. We have no legit backup PG and no SF either. Looks poor to me.

[conqueso]

I think people are more concerned about the other teams in the league getting better next year. Heat will be at least as good w/ Wade continuing to dominate. Cavs could give anyone trouble w/ Lebron. Bulls could be contenders. Rockets could be good w/ Yao and T-Mac healthy. Mavs will still be young but have even more experience than last year (though it's really just more experience choking, which they have plenty of already). Phoenix could be really good w/ a healthy Amare, etc.

So in short, I think we are just staying even so far this offseason, whereas a lot of teams seem to be getting a lot better.

Yeah, I agree with that. It worries me too to a certain extent.

Not to hijack this thread, but I was listening to the Ticket in Dallas on Friday morning and (even though I'm sure someone else has posted this someone on this forum), here was the gist:

Every great championship team has had a money guy who turns it on in the fourth quarter: Wade, Duncan, Billups, Kobe, Jordan, Olajuwon, Isiah, Magic, Bird, etc. Dirk Nowitzki is not one of those. He's more like (and I'm using this guy's words here) David Robinson, a guy who can be a franchise player but can't get it done in the clutch. The only way a player like that ever wins is when he becomes a complimentary player to a bigger star who can get it done in the fourth. "Dirk is overrated." (That's a direct quote from a respected Mav commentator on a Dallas sports radio station.)

The reason I bring this up is that Dallas definitely did not go out and find someone who can take over a game when it matters most, so I'm not really worried as much about them. The Spurs had two of those types of guys two years ago, and this year, one of them just didn't come through. How he responds will determine more about this upcoming season than whatever scrub ends up getting minutes at 5.

[conqueso]

We lost Rasho and Nazr, got nothing in return. Bonner I don't know about, never seen him play, I don't know how he'll be here. From what I've heard we got Bonner who is supposed to legit and and two rookies, Butler and Elson, who are supposed to be good. We didn't sign Javtokas or Scola and IMO our Frontcourt is weak. The backup guards are another thing as well. Finley played great, but I don't wanna see Barry playing like he did last year during the regular season. We have no legit backup PG and no SF either. Looks poor to me.

Nick Van Exel was our backup point guard last year. I could have been a better backup than him. And still, we were likely one foul away from a title.

We had a slow, plodding Finley who took a long time to fit in to his role on the team, and had many many many shitty nights. And still, we were likely one foul away from a title.

We had our superstar, the savior of our franchise, hobbling around on gimpy feet all year long, dropping his average in every important statistical category except assists. And still, we were likely one foul away from a title.

We had a bevy of injuries, an inconsistent center, and a great big target on our backs all year long. And still, we were likely one foul away from a title.

If all of that shit can go wrong and the Spurs can still be one foul away from a title, Jackie Butler, with a career scoring average of 5.2 ppg in 13 mpg, is not going to be the difference between success and failure.

[E20]

Nick Van Exel was our backup point guard last year. I could have been a better backup than him. And still, we were likely one foul away from a title.

We had a slow, plodding Finley who took a long time to fit in to his role on the team, and had many many many shitty nights. And still, we were likely one foul away from a title.

We had our superstar, the savior of our franchise, hobbling around on gimpy feet all year long, dropping his average in every important statistical category except assists. And still, we were likely one foul away from a title.

We had a bevy of injuries, an inconsistent center, and a great big target on our backs all year long. And still, we were likely one foul away from a title.

If all of that shit can go wrong and the Spurs can still be one foul away from a title, Jackie Butler, with a career scoring average of 5.2 ppg in 13 mpg, is not going to be the difference between success and failure.
Then everybody should stop complaining when Beno turns the ball over at halfcourt and when Barry's shot isn't going, also I don't wanna even think what's gonna happen when Tony or Manu are injured or Duncan, since there is nobody to replace either one of them to 1/2 of their capability.

Finley I'm not worried about, he showed during the playoffs he's meshed in and knows what he has to do.

Horry's gonna be useless until the playoffs and even then hopefully he'll be his former self.

Oberto can't say too much of him. He didn't play.

Nobody here knows how Butler and Bonner, maybe Elson will pan out here on the Spurs, they may do worse than Rasho and Nazr or they may play better.

[conqueso]

Then everybody should stop complaining when Beno turns the ball over at halfcourt and when Barry's shot isn't going, also I don't wanna even think what's gonna happen when Tony or Manu are injured or Duncan, since there is nobody to replace either one of them to 1/2 of their capability.

Finley I'm not worried about, he showed during the playoffs he's meshed in and knows what he has to do.

Horry's gonna be useless until the playoffs and even then hopefully he'll be his former self.

Oberto can't say too much of him. He didn't play.

Nobody here knows how Butler and Bonner, maybe Elson will pan out here on the Spurs, they may do worse than Rasho and Nazr or they may play better.

Yeah, I hear a lot of that. I just want everyone to realize that Beno turning the ball over at halfcourt probably won't be as aggravating to watch as Nick Van Exel's six minute stints twice a game. If I see another Spurs take four dribbles past half court and jack up a three, I'm going to fucking explode. Say what you will about the tenants of small ball, at least there's one thing that all of us can agree on: Nick Van Exel blew hairy donkey balls and the team is better off without him. I'd rather have a blind deaf and dumb pinball wizard playing backup point guard than Nick Van fucking Exel.

[Dalhoop]

The jury is out on the Spurs at the moment. Will they get a Center? How good will he be? Will Duncan have to move to Center?

This team is not as ..... prepared for a championship run then last year. The pieses are not in place, they have not played together etc.

If Bulter signs and then plays well then this off-season is a wash ... if not then it is a step back.

As for one foul from a title, you were out in the second round, not the third, and not in the NBA Finals. You were down 3-1 and the Mavs missed a last second tip-in to send you packing 4-1 .... That is how close you were to losing badly.

You were one foul from the West finals, and one tip-in from exiting 4-1 in the second round.

The Spurs do not need to "hold the line" they need to improve. If you lose in the second round, you are not "almost Champs" you are the same as the Clippers, Cavalers and Bulls .... a second round team.

The Spurs are making the kool-aid and some of you are drinking it instead of looking at what happened last year and looking at the needs of the team.

Look up Butlers stats, look up Elsons stats, look up Williams stats, look up Bonners stats ... Look them up instead of reading the company line and see what you are getting.

You have won Championships before you should know what it takes to win.

You know what the team needs.

Does the team need a pair of career 19 minute/game Centers? Does the team need a 34 year old Williams to back up Bowen and Manu?

Open your eyes and put the kool-aid down.

I will not post on this thread again, just look it up .... you know what it takes to win a Championship .... are these guys it?

[Obstructed_View]

I will not post on this thread again, just look it up .... you know what it takes to win a Championship .... are these guys it?
The Spurs won the title in 2003 with more question marks going in than this team has.

[pistonsrfukinstupid]

nazr and rasho were fucking trash. we'll be ok

[jhoward]

Merry Christmas Everybody Have A Jolly Time In A Jolly World

[D-WADE3]

U GOT SOME ISSSUES


Merry Christmas Everybody Have A Jolly Time In A Jolly World

[ChumpDumper]

Just to let you know - I'm not going to put up with this bullshit in here.

[waly.mg]

rasho and Nazr in the Playoffs were nothing, so nothing - nothing = 0, and 5 millions of difference

[koopa]

Co-signed. Butler's here? All's right with the world. Butler's gone? Potentially long season.

Would also like Barry traded, but likely it happens mid-season or next summer.


when you have tim, manu, and parker it won't be a long season, maybe a short playoffs but it will not be a long season no matter what happens with butler

and i would like brent traded too, but i don't care for who, just as long as this passive bitch isn't with the spurs anymore it's all good for me

[Slinkyman]

I will not post on this thread again, just look it up .... you know what it takes to win a Championship .... are these guys it?

Roll players don't win or lose championships

[ChumpDumper]

so nothing - nothing = 0
http://image.listen.com/img/356x237/0/0/5/8/508500_356x237.jpg
He would agree.

RIP

[jaffies]

The 5th Beatle

[SCdac]

As for one foul from a title, you were out in the second round, not the third, and not in the NBA Finals. You were down 3-1 and the Mavs missed a last second tip-in to send you packing 4-1 .... That is how close you were to losing badly.

You were one foul from the West finals, and one tip-in from exiting 4-1 in the second round.

The Spurs do not need to "hold the line" they need to improve. If you lose in the second round, you are not "almost Champs" you are the same as the Clippers, Cavalers and Bulls .... a second round team.

Yeah, and that screwy playoff seeding didnt have anything to do with exiting the second round in particular :rolleyes

Spurs-Mavs series was the WCF and we all know it. They were, and still are IMO, the two best teams in the west.

I think we all know by now you think the Spurs have gotten worse since last season, since you post it in every thread *shrug*... Just curious, dont you have a Mavs forum to go to bag on the Spurs?

[Mr. Body]

when you have tim, manu, and parker it won't be a long season, maybe a short playoffs but it will not be a long season no matter what happens with butler

and i would like brent traded too, but i don't care for who, just as long as this passive bitch isn't with the spurs anymore it's all good for me

Butler would be one of the few game-changing talents we have on our bench, with Finley being the other (at times). I can see him being a guy the other team has no answers for in stretches.

[Dalhoop]

I will answer questions :)


I think we all know by now you think the Spurs have gotten worse since last season, since you post it in every thread *shrug*... Just curious, dont you have a Mavs forum to go to bag on the Spurs?

I don't bag on the Spurs, I tell it as I see it. If saying the Spurs are a second round team is baging on them ... Then I am guilty of speaking the truth.

[koopa]

Butler would be one of the few game-changing talents we have on our bench, with Finley being the other (at times). I can see him being a guy the other team has no answers for in stretches.


i understand, but it will not be a long season if he doesn't come here, unless getting the 4th seed (i'm not saying that's where we'll be, that's where i think we get no lower then the 4rd seed regardless of what happens) in the playoffs is a long season for you

[Mr. Body]

i understand, but it will not be a long season if he doesn't come here, unless getting the 4th seed (i'm not saying that's where we'll be, that's where i think we get no lower then the 4rd seed regardless of what happens) in the playoffs is a long season for you

There's a lot of negatives in there. You're saying it will be a long season regardless of whether Butler is here, right?

[koopa]

There's a lot of negatives in there. You're saying it will be a long season regardless of whether Butler is here, right?


no, i'm saying it won't be a long season no matter what happens with butler, unless for YOU a long season means getting the 4th seed

[SCdac]

I don't bag on the Spurs, I tell it as I see it. If saying the Spurs are a second round team is baging on them ... Then I am guilty of speaking the truth.

Yes, equating the Spurs to teams like the Clippers and Bulls is not bagging on them. Geez, the Spurs sure did drop off didnt they?

How come you didnt respond to the part about the PO seeding? You know, the PO seeding that is supposed to be getting fixed this upcoming season... so hopefully the two best teams in the west/east dont meet in the second round.

[Nesterofish]

The Mavs are a one-hit wonder. Dirk will go back to his lederhosen-hearing choking self and Cuban will cry on the sidelines.

The Suns are counting on that dumb oaf Stodemire to carry them. Ha. With his knee noe thwyre going to count on his decision making. Goofd luck with that.

The Spurs are fine and will win in 07!!!!!!!!

[conqueso]

[snip]
I will not post on this thread again, just look it up .... you know what it takes to win a Championship .... are these guys it?

2003 was supposed to be a rebuilding year before the season started. No one thought Tony would continue to improve at the rate that he did. No one thought Robinson would be able to give anything in his last year. No one expected shit out of SJax. No one even knew Manu Ginobili's name.

To answer your question, as unlikely as it may seem, these guys could be the '07 champs. They've done it before with less. I'd say the Mavs' future is more uncertain, what with the pernicious seed of doubt planted deeply in their minds and everything.

[conqueso]

Roll players don't win or lose championships

Steve Kerr and Robert Horry might disagree with you.

[exstatic]

The Spurs have had shit center play for 3 years, and now they face the possiblity of getting same said shit center play for a cheap price. Sue them.

Tim Duncan + 2 All Star guards = 1 or 2 seed for the next four years.

[exstatic]

Steve Kerr and Robert Horry might disagree with you.
Steve Kerr and Robert Horry generally pick the right team to play on to utilize their talents and contributions. Put them on Memphis or Denver, and they ain't winning shit.

[Dalhoop]

Yes, equating the Spurs to teams like the Clippers and Bulls is not bagging on them. Geez, the Spurs sure did drop off didnt they?

Equating them to other second round teams that lost does not seem reasonable? That is were they lost, maybe you have forgotten that. As for the Spurs "dropping off" depends on your perspective. If a Championship is the target, then "drop off" might be correct.


How come you didnt respond to the part about the PO seeding? You know, the PO seeding that is supposed to be getting fixed this upcoming season... so hopefully the two best teams in the west/east dont meet in the second round.

Because I said I would wouldn't post on this thread ... unless asked a question.

The seedings needed to be fixed, the road to the Finals should not be a Home court first round - Visiting team second round - Home court third round. That made no sense what so ever.

[conqueso]

Steve Kerr and Robert Horry generally pick the right team to play on to utilize their talents and contributions. Put them on Memphis or Denver, and they ain't winning shit.

Yes, I realize that, but when someone makes the claim that role players don't win or lose championships, you have to look at '03 WCF Game 6 and '05 Finals Game 5 and wonder if the Spurs would have gotten their trophies without those two motherfuckers nailing big threes. I think almost anyone would say that the Spurs would have been sunk without those role players stepping up. But regardless, no free agent available to us was that type of role player, so it doesn't really matter.

[spurster]

The Spurs have 3 stars and might do well whatever scrubs are found. In fact, during the regular season they will do well. Around 60 wins is pretty much a given.

However, if you thinking the Spurs need more small ball/quickness to matchup vs. the Mavs or Suns, then only maybe Bonner might help. Another one or two centers to play 15 minutes per playoff series is not going to get it done. The Spurs need someone Diaw-like or Halsem/Posey-like and there is next to nothing around or coming for that to happen.

[Dalhoop]

However, if you thinking the Spurs need more small ball/quickness to matchup vs. the Mavs or Suns, then only maybe Bonner might help. Another one or two centers to play 15 minutes per playoff series is not going to get it done. The Spurs need someone Diaw-like or Halsem/Posey-like and there is next to nothing around or coming for that to happen.

Thats what I am trying to say ... thank you. The team is not addressing what got it booted in the playoffs .... Its like they are looking only at the regular season and hoping that what happened in last years playoffs doesn't happen again.

I have some bad news, this is a copy-cat league. The Spurs are going to see alot of small ball all season and in the playoffs.

[furry_spurry]

The biggest concern is that the Spurs did not adddress their most pressing needs-- rebounding, a long 3, a better back-up PG,... instead they got rid of their centers for financial reasons and had to us the MLE to replace them instead of to make the team better.

[Dalhoop]

^

And for saying this I get called a "troll"

Look, the big three + Bowen played out of their minds in the Mavs series. I think in one game Parker, Duncan and Manu combined for 100 points, if not more.

You cannot ask anymore from them and realistically expect to get it ... and they lost.

This means that you need something more then the those four ... and you get Bonner, Butler (a center that wont play in a Mavs match-up), Elson (a center that wont play in a Mavs match-up) and Williams another 30+ year old.

[Slinkyman]

Thats what I am trying to say ... thank you. The team is not addressing what got it booted in the playoffs .... Its like they are looking only at the regular season and hoping that what happened in last years playoffs doesn't happen again.

I have some bad news, this is a copy-cat league. The Spurs are going to see alot of small ball all season and in the playoffs.

If the spurs copy-cat anyone i hope they copy-cat what the heat did, small ball didn't win shit again.

[ChumpDumper]

We're getting Shaq?

Alright!

[Dalhoop]

If the spurs copy-cat anyone i hope they copy-cat what the heat did, small ball didn't win shit again.

We didn't play small ball vs the heat (by the way, we call it speed ball. We keep our center and PF on the floor)

What the Heat did was have a star carry them to four wins almost single handedly .. All credit to Wade ... He was great.

[Dalhoop]

We're getting Shaq?

Alright!

Calm down, that would put you over the Cap ... we know that aint going to happen

[Leetonidas]

Calm down, that would put you over the Cap ... we know that aint going to happen

:rolleyes

[Slinkyman]

We didn't play small ball vs the heat (by the way, we call it speed ball. We keep our center and PF on the floor)

What the Heat did was have a star carry them to four wins almost single handedly .. All credit to Wade ... He was great.

I was speaking of the spurs playing small ball

[strangeweather]

Calm down, that would put you over the Cap ... we know that aint going to happen
Yes, cap implications -- that's the reason we won't get Shaq this offseason.

[Dalhoop]

I was speaking of the spurs playing small ball
My bad .. I got confused


If the spurs copy-cat anyone i hope they copy-cat what the heat did, small ball didn't win shit again.

The Heat didn't play small-ball because we didn't start Harris and Terry (Wade would Post-up Terry all night long .... it wouldn't have been pretty)

The Heat used a zone in those situations to keep Shaq on the floor and out of foul trouble. I am not sure Pop would go with a zone sceme for any length of time .... but then again, I don't know Pop that well :)

A zone is a good counter the Mavs speed attack though ... I expect to see the Spurs play it (copy-cat and all :) )

[Quadzilla99]

"Are Things really So Bad?"

If we get Butler No. If we don't Yes. Not like the Spurs are going to be lottery team but the roster most likely will be slightly worse than last year's .

[RC's Boss]

The Spurs have had shit center play for 3 years, and now they face the possiblity of getting same said shit center play for a cheap price. Sue them.

Tim Duncan + 2 All Star guards = 1 or 2 seed for the next four years.
Exactly! People are acting as if Rasho or Nazr avg. 16ppg! The Spurs lost in the 2nd round to the lakers a couple years back and came back and won it all again. I do agree we need to trade Barry for a SF. It would be even sweeter if the dude can hit a few 3's.... This team is built to make title runs as it stands for at least another 3-4 years. Panic then! I'll be ordering my league pass once again to watch my squad "quietly" whip ass all the way thru June!

[Obstructed_View]

Exactly! People are acting as if Rasho or Nazr avg. 16ppg!
It was their 2 blocks, 10 rebounds and defense in the paint that they missed. And unfortunately they only averaged 11 points per game, not 16.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Exactly! People are acting as if Rasho or Nazr avg. 16ppg!

It's never been about the points from that position. It's about the defense and rebounding.

Let me guess, you think small ball is a great thing for this team.

[Obstructed_View]

I just hope beyond hope that spoiled Spurs fans don't get to see what "shit center play" actually is firsthand any time soon.

[RC's Boss]

It's never been about the points from that position. It's about the defense and rebounding.

Let me guess, you think small ball is a great thing for this team.
Uh hell no! I hate small ball. But replacing two "serviceble" centers w/ two more doesn't look so bad to me. And those stats were per player not combined! Nazr nor Rasho avg 10 rpg and 2 bpg! Last month you all were saying how we needed to get rid of those guys, well damn! Yes Nazr had a knack for offensive rebounds, and yes Rasho was an excellent "team" defender, but did we loose damn Ben Wallace or something?!?!?!?! Relax schitzos, the Spurs will be in the hunt once again as they have for the past few years! In the last 10 years I have never seen the Spurs make big splashes in FA. The draft picks are never high except for Tim, but yet they quietly build a successful roster year after year. "Spoiled"?????? Please, I am a fan and unlike a Knicks fan, I have reason to be excited about the upcoming season!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Obstructed_View]

Uh hell no! I hate small ball. But replacing two "serviceble" centers w/ two more doesn't look so bad to me. And those stats were per player not combined! Nazr nor Rasho avg 10 rpg and 2 bpg!

Rasho and Nazr shared the center position, so combining their averages per game makes a hell of a lot more sense than looking at the averages by themselves to rate their contribution to the team. Of course, the Spurs losing without them hasn't been enough to convince some people.

[RC's Boss]

Rasho and Nazr shared the center position, so combining their averages per game makes a hell of a lot more sense than looking at the averages by themselves to rate their contribution to the team. Of course, the Spurs losing without them hasn't been enough to convince some people.
I agree (again) small ball was a mistake, but isn't Butler a 6'10 banger, and Elson whom I'm not all whooopeee about 7ft? Truth is I would prefer Pryzbilla (don't know if that's spelled correctly), but if the Knicks don't match I would prefer Butler over Nazr or Rasho b/c I think he's better on offense looking at the Knicks games I viewed (quite a few). On defense both he and Elson are not as good as Rasho, but neither was Rasho when he was in Minnesota... Plus I think Finley will be huge next year off the bench since he seemed much more comfortable w/ Pop's system by the time the playoffs rolled around. Now we just need to get rid of the Son Of Rick for someone in their 20's and we should be fine. Tim's foot will have completely healed and if Manu doesn't drain himself on the Argentine b-ball team and Tony gets even better, all will be right w/ in Spurs world. So fear not, the Spurs train, like always will be coming thru!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Obstructed_View]

You and I are mostly in agreement. I agree that Rasho was overpaid and dumping his contract was good. I also think the Pistons overpaid for Nazr. That said, they weren't nearly as terrible as some on this board have been blindly repeating over and over. I simply took issue with the suggestion that the Spurs were getting "shit play" from the centers and hope we never find out what that's actually like.

[RC's Boss]

You and I are mostly in agreement. I agree that Rasho was overpaid and dumping his contract was good. I also think the Pistons overpaid for Nazr. That said, they weren't nearly as terrible as some on this board have been blindly repeating over and over. I simply took issue with the suggestion that the Spurs were getting "shit play" from the centers and hope we never find out what that's actually like.
Yeah, I hate to bring it up again, but I think small ball was a big mistake. I could understand part of the game, but Nazr and Rasho never came off the bench! I forgot who posted but someone said if you don't dance w/ the lady you brought to the dance she will leave w/ someone else. That someone else was dallas advancing and us fishing on the old creek!

[Obstructed_View]

Yeah, I hate to bring it up again, but I think small ball was a big mistake. I could understand part of the game, but Nazr and Rasho never came off the bench! I forgot who posted but someone said if you don't dance w/ the lady you brought to the dance she will leave w/ someone else. That someone else was dallas advancing and us fishing on the old creek!
I'm the one who said that. I often worry that people just get sick of my bitching and ignore my posts. At least someone is reading. :)

[conqueso]

I agree (again) small ball was a mistake, but isn't Butler a 6'10 banger, and Elson whom I'm not all whooopeee about 7ft? Truth is I would prefer Pryzbilla (don't know if that's spelled correctly), but if the Knicks don't match I would prefer Butler over Nazr or Rasho b/c I think he's better on offense looking at the Knicks games I viewed (quite a few). On defense both he and Elson are not as good as Rasho, but neither was Rasho when he was in Minnesota... Plus I think Finley will be huge next year off the bench since he seemed much more comfortable w/ Pop's system by the time the playoffs rolled around. Now we just need to get rid of the Son Of Rick for someone in their 20's and we should be fine. Tim's foot will have completely healed and if Manu doesn't drain himself on the Argentine b-ball team and Tony gets even better, all will be right w/ in Spurs world. So fear not, the Spurs train, like always will be coming thru!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Obviously an inappropriate place for this topic, but...

I don't like small ball either because I'm a traditionalist and I feel unsettled by change. Same reason I don't like watching the Suns play. But there's a difference between not liking it very much and thinking it was a mistake, or saying things like "Fuck Small Ball." I think small ball, as antithetical as it may be, was the best strategy at the time. And I don't really think it's a bad strategy to use against the Mavs next year, either. Let me explain:

Here's how a defense of small ball might go:

One of Dallas' four-headed centers is always on the court: Diop, Dampier, Mbenga, or Van Horn. Now let's say you eschew small ball and play Rasho 20-30 minutes per game. Who's he going to guard? Putting him on Dirk would be a laughing stock. You can't stick him on Diop either, because that leaves Duncan to guard Dirk. If you want to put Bowen on Dirk, that forces Duncan to guard Howard or Griffin if Rasho's on DeSagana. Duncan on Dirk still allows Dirk to score in the 25-30 range (since Duncan really can't take away Dirk's drive to the hoop from the elbow and can't jump high enough to block that driving layup), wears out Timmy, and likely gets him into foul trouble. We saw this in the last 4 minutes of game 3, when Tim got stuck guarding Dirk (because Bowen was in serious foul trouble) and Tim fouled him twice, numbers 5 and 6. Duncan on Howard is even worse, since Howard can blow right by him and step out for long range jumpers, pulling Tim out of the paint and forcing Rasho to get all the defensive boards. So playing Rasho means he has to guard either Diop or Dirk, and neither of those scenarios is any better than starting Bruce at PF and putting him on Nowitzki.
The only other option is to give Nazr the lion's share of the minutes at 5. Nazr is a better (offensive) rebounder than Rasho and he's more athletic. Nazr is more inept on offense than Rasho, and he is (arguably) a worse defender. Rasho plays good one-quarter post position defense, is a decent shot blocker, and has a mid-range jumper than garners just a little bit of respect. The problem with Nazr isn't as much in the x's and o's as it is in the head. Nazr played well (by his standards) in the two regular season victories against the Mavs, averaging 10 ppg, but had not been playing very well during the playoffs (excepting Game 1 against Sacramento, a game in which even I would have played 20 minutes and shot 8-8 from three if I had been wearing a Spurs uniform). The one game where he got any significant time (Game 2), he had 4 fouls and 1 point in 12 minutes. With Nazr, you still have problems matching him up against Dirk or Howard, and he had that deer-in-headlights look when he did get in the game. Maybe being in Pop's doghouse wrecked his confidence, or not getting consistent minutes hurt his rhythm or whatever, but regardless of the reason, he wasn't mentally prepared to play against the Mavs in the playoffs, whereas Finley was. Add that to the matchup problems, and I think it makes a lot of sense to nail him to the bench.
Both Nazr and Rasho would have helped the Spurs rebounding, which by all accounts was atrocious against Dallas. They might have even denied Devin Harris a lay-up or two with their long arms. But I think it's ironic that those who criticize small ball point to the lack of defense, when sticking with the big lineup would have actually resulted in worse individual defense on Howard, Griffin, and/or Dirk.
Now I know it sucks that the Spurs had to conform to another team because the matchups just didn't work out in their favor. It's tough to swallow a complete change of mentality in the playoffs, especially when it fails to ensure victory. But you loved it last year when the Spurs annihilated the Suns by refusing to defend Amare and letting him average something ridiculous like 37 ppg while shooting a bunch of one-pass threes in transition. And if you honestly look at the Spurs' roster and compare it to the Mavs' rotation, you can see why the characteristic defense-first approach of the Spurs was inappropriate to use against this Dallas team. Maybe one different piece, like an athletic big who could play D or a long 3 who could shoot, would have changed everything and allowed the Spurs to force the Mavericks to alter their game plan. But with Parker, Ginobili, Finley, Bowen, Duncan, Barry, Horry, Van Exel, Mohammed and Nesterovic, you have to go small.

[Obstructed_View]

I'm sorry, but that defense of smallball makes zero sense, and people keep saying it like it means something. "Imagine how bad it would have been if they HADN'T gone to smallball." Um, they lost. It's not like it worked AT ALL. I'm not sure how the Spurs suddenly started allowing 101 points per game in the playoffs and people still think it was a good idea.

Seriously, how could the defense of Dirk, Howard and Harris (not Griffin) been much worse? Everyone on the Mavericks got to the rim and got to the line - AFTER MAKING THE BASKET. The only jumpers they took were wide open threes, and only when they decided to. I'd have welcomed having Josh Howard attempt to beat the Spurs with "long range jumpers". Jump shooting teams don't win, and neither do teams that allow layups. Too bad the Spurs decided to become the latter.

When your defensive philosophy is to funnel people to the shot blockers and you suddenly take out all but one of the shot blockers and make him try to patrol both sides of the paint by himself while Horry and Finley get in the way, I'm not sure how you expect the defense to improve, especially when you introduce it three games into the playoffs with no warning. By the way, THAT is the reason Duncan was in foul trouble, not because Dirk is the greatest offensive player Duncan's ever had to guard. I guess those 63 wins of playing your style of basketball were just fools gold. If Rasho and Nazr sucked so bad then I wonder why the defense and rebounding went to shit when they weren't in there. I guess it's just the greatness of the Mavericks team that got beat four straight by the Miami Heat.

Look, I can understand to a certain extent having to make some changes against the Kings, because their two best players were Bonzi and Artest, and both were playing out of their minds. THAT'S a matchup problem. I absolutely don't buy that Duncan is incapable of covering Dirk for any stretch of time, nor do I understand this need to assign A defender to A player when the Spurs have stuck Bruce on one guy and played basically man over zone a thousand times.

Pop historically gives up on guys too quickly, and he had too long of a shitlist for the talent of the team to recover from it. It's sad that the Spurs ended up laying a bigger egg than any other Spurs team in history as a result. It's even more sad that most Spurs fans are blaming the loss on bad officiating or Manu's foul rather than where it belongs.

[conqueso]

I'm sorry, but that defense of smallball makes zero sense, and people keep saying it like it means something. "Imagine how bad it would have been if they HADN'T gone to smallball." Um, they lost. It's not like it worked AT ALL. I'm not sure how the Spurs suddenly started allowing 101 points per game in the playoffs and people still think it was a good idea.

Seriously, how could the defense of Dirk, Howard and Harris (not Griffin) been much worse? Everyone on the Mavericks got to the rim and got to the line - AFTER MAKING THE BASKET. The only jumpers they took were wide open threes, and only when they decided to. I'd have welcomed having Josh Howard attempt to beat the Spurs with "long range jumpers". Jump shooting teams don't win, and neither do teams that allow layups. Too bad the Spurs decided to become the latter.

When your defensive philosophy is to funnel people to the shot blockers and you suddenly take out all but one of the shot blockers and make him try to patrol both sides of the paint by himself while Horry and Finley get in the way, I'm not sure how you expect the defense to improve, especially when you introduce it three games into the playoffs with no warning. By the way, THAT is the reason Duncan was in foul trouble, not because Dirk is the greatest offensive player Duncan's ever had to guard. I guess those 63 wins of playing your style of basketball were just fools gold. If Rasho and Nazr sucked so bad then I wonder why the defense and rebounding went to shit when they weren't in there. I guess it's just the greatness of the Mavericks team that got beat four straight by the Miami Heat.

Look, I can understand to a certain extent having to make some changes against the Kings, because their two best players were Bonzi and Artest, and both were playing out of their minds. THAT'S a matchup problem. I absolutely don't buy that Duncan is incapable of covering Dirk for any stretch of time, nor do I understand this need to assign A defender to A player when the Spurs have stuck Bruce on one guy and played basically man over zone a thousand times.

Pop historically gives up on guys too quickly, and he had too long of a shitlist for the talent of the team to recover from it. It's sad that the Spurs ended up laying a bigger egg than any other Spurs team in history as a result. It's even more sad that most Spurs fans are blaming the loss on bad officiating or Manu's foul rather than where it belongs.

Um...you didn't address any of my specific points at all. You resort to hyperbole and superlatives, like:

"'Imagine how bad it would have been if they HADN'T gone to smallball.' Um, they lost. It's not like it worked AT ALL." - It could have been much worse...they could have lost 4-1 or 4-2. It worked to the extent that the Spurs were one Manu foul away from winning the series coming back from down 3-1.

"Jump shooting teams don't win, and neither do teams that allow layups." - The Spurs would have allowed more layups with Duncan on Howard or Rasho on Dirk. Did you even read my post?

"By the way, THAT is the reason Duncan was in foul trouble, not because Dirk is the greatest offensive player Duncan's ever had to guard." - Wait, the reason Duncan was in foul trouble was because he had to patrol the lane, which is what he has been going for the last 17 years of his life? He didn't pick up the fouls I refer to "patrolling the lane"...he picked them up trying to guard Dirk.

"I absolutely don't buy that Duncan is incapable of covering Dirk for any stretch of time" - I don't believe that either, which is why I didn't say it. Duncan can be okay in spurts. If you put Duncan on Nowitzki for the game, Dirk will blow up, and you're deluding yourself if you're not willing to admit that. You know he's quicker than Duncan and you know that Duncan can't guard faster guys who drive on him. Duncan is a beast defender, but Dirk just has a rare combination of height, ball-handling skills, and shooting touch that render someone like Duncan ineffective against him.

"I guess those 63 wins of playing your style of basketball were just fools gold. " - Keep in mind, only two of those 63 wins were against the Mavs. Limit the discussion to that topic, because I'm NOT trying to defend a season't worth of small ball.

I mean, seriously, you think big ball was working so well? Why didn't Pop stick with it then? Is he just so dumb that he has to change the strategy in mid stream just for the hell of it? Or do you think he had a realization that big ball was not going to work, and so the Spurs needed to try something new? Which one of those scenarios seems more likely?

I do blame the loss on Manu's foul, because the simple fact of the matter is that Spurs would have come back from down 3-1 PLAYING SMALL BALL if Manu hadn't fucked up. That's a reality that you can't contest.

[Obstructed_View]

I mean, seriously, you think big ball was working so well? Why didn't Pop stick with it then?
Great question. When you find the answer you let me know. The two times in the playoffs that Pop "stuck with it" the Spurs won by 40 and beat the Mavericks on an 18 hour turnaround.

[furry_spurry]

Great question. When you find the answer you let me know. The two times in the playoffs that Pop "stuck with it" the Spurs won by 40 and beat the Mavericks on an 18 hour turnaround.
Game 1 against Dallas third quarter-- enough said.

[Obstructed_View]

Game 1 against Dallas third quarter-- enough said.
Me no follow. What are you talking about?

[RC's Boss]

I could be wrong, but I don't remember any small ball going on against Phoenix. We should have let Dirk get his points and controlled the other players, b/c this is a "team" sport, like Bruce shutting down Marion. That's the reason I don't agree w/ small ball. Instead Dirk STILL got his and so did at least two Terry, Stackhouse, Howard, or Harris combos! As the obstructed one said, our defense is predicated on our wings funneling players baseline which is non-existent w/ only one big on the floor. Dirk could avg 45ppg in that series w/ "big balls" on the court (pun intended), but no one else would've gone off w/ 25 and 30 point games! We are all entitled to our own opinion, but I try to base mine off history and history tells me that we win w/ the defense, not trying to outscore someone! If we don't rebound or block shots we lose. We tried putting in a quicker lineup, which would be fine if the small ball lineup was actually quick! What I'm ultimately saying is, small ball only works, if you have that type of personnel on your roster, the Spurs DON'T. So yes, I was pissed every time one of the mavs gaurds came driving thru the lane w/ the greatest of ease! Dirk could pull a Kobe (81), but why the hell did we give up so much penetration and free throws to a team w/ no post player? SMALL GODAMN BALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Beer is Good]

Nobody here knows how Butler and Bonner, maybe Elson will pan out here on the Spurs, they may do worse than Rasho and Nazr or they may play better.

Seeing as how Rasho and Nazr really didn't even play in the playoffs, if they play they'll already be better.

[furry_spurry]

Me no follow. What are you talking about?
People forget the Spurs were losing at halftime of Game 1 against Dallas. They took the game over during the third quarter-- the only quarter of the whole series (I believe) during which NO small ball was played. The line-up had 2 of either Tim, Rob, or Rasho at all times. That quarter was the reason game 1 was won, but we never saw it again.

[RC's Boss]

Small ball sucks crack!