50 Greatest Players revised, and ordered

[TDMVPDPOY]

This is a thread i stolen :D from realgm done by The maryland hat, in ref to http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/hof_prob.html
since there are many old timers on this forum will probaly enlightened a few young members about their views on players who are more deserving or not.

Heres the list:

1. Michael Jordan (North Carolina)
- Drafted by the Chicago Bulls in the 1st round (3rd pick) of the 1984 NBA draft.
- 5x MVP
- 6x Finals MVP
- 3x All-Star MVP
- 1985 Rookie of the Year
- 1x Defensive Player of the Year
- 6x Champion
- 2x Olympic Gold Medalist
- 1x NCAA Champion
- 10x All-NBA First Team
- 9x All-Defense First Team
- 14x All-Star
- 10x Scoring Leader
- #1 Scoring Average
- #3 Points
- #4 Field Goals Made
- #3 Field Goals Attempted
- #2 Steals
- #2 Finals Scoring Average

2. Bill Russell (San Francisco)
- Drafted by the St. Louis Hawks in the 1st round (2nd pick) of the 1956 NBA draft.
- 5x MVP
- 1x All-Star MVP
- 11x Champion
- 1x Olympic Gold Medalist
- 2x NCAA Champion
- 3x All-NBA First Team
- 1x All-Defense First Team
- 12x All-Star
- #2 Rebounding Average
- #2 Rebounds
- #1 Finals Rebounds
- #3 Finals Assists
- #1 Finals Games Played

3. Wilt Chamberlain (Kansas)
- Drafted by the Philadelphia Warriors in the 1st round (3rd pick) of the 1959 NBA draft.
- 4x MVP
- 1x Finals MVP
- 1x All-Star MVP
- 1960 Rookie of the Year
- 2x Champion
- 7x All-NBA First Team
- 2x All-Defense First Team
- 13x All-Star
- 7x Scoring Leader
- #2 Scoring Average
- #4 Points
- #3 Field Goals Made
- #6 Field Goals Attempted
- #1 Rebounding Average
- #1 Rebounds
- #4 Minutes Played
- #2 Finals Rebounds

4. Kareem Abdul Jabbar (UCLA)
- Drafted by the Milwaukee Bucks in the 1st round (1st pick) of the 1969 NBA draft.
- 6x MVP
- 2x Finals MVP
- 1970 Rookie of the Year
- 6x Champion
- 3x NCAA Champion
- 10x All-NBA First Team
- 5x All-Defense First Team
- 19x All-Star
- 2x Scoring Leader
- #1 Points
- #1 Field Goals Made
- #1 Field Goals Attempted
- #8 Field Goal Percentage
- #3 Rebounds
- #2 Blocked Shots
- #2 Games Played
- #1 Minutes Played
- #1 Personal Fouls
- #4 Finals Rebounds
- #3 Finals Games Played

5. Ervin Johnson (Michigan State)
- Drafted by the Los Angeles Lakers in the 1st round (1st pick) of the 1979 NBA draft.
- 3x MVP
- 3x Finals MVP
- 2x All-Star MVP
- 5x Champion
- 1x Olympic Gold Medalist
- 1x NCAA Champion
- 9x All-NBA First Team
- 12x All-Star
- #1 Assist Average
- #3 Assists
- #1 Finals Assists

6. Larry Bird (Indiana State)
- Drafted by the Boston Celtics in the 1st round (6th pick) of the 1978 NBA draft.
- 3x MVP
- 2x Finals MVP
- 1x All-Star MVP
- 1980 Rookie of the Year
- 3x Champion
- 1x Olympic Gold Medalist
- 9x All-NBA First Team
- 12x All-Star
- #9 Free Throw Percentage

7. Shaquille O'Neal (LSU)
- Drafted by the Orlando Magic in the 1st round (1st pick) of the 1992 NBA draft.
- 1x MVP
- 3x Finals MVP
- 2x All-Star MVP
- 1993 Rookie of the Year
- 4x Champion
- 1x Olympic Gold Medalist
- 8x All-NBA First Team
- 13x All-Star
- 2x Scoring Leader
- #6 Scoring Average
- #3 Field Goal Percentage
- #10 Field Goals Made
- #8 Blocked Shots

8. Bob Pettit (LSU)
- Drafted by the Milwaukee Hawks in the 1st round (2nd pick) of the 1954 NBA draft.
- 2x MVP
- 4x All-Star MVP
- 1955 Rookie of the Year
- 1x Champion
- 10x All-NBA First Team
- 11x All-Star
- 2x Scoring Leader
- #7 Scoring Average
- #3 Rebounding Average

9. Oscar Robertson (Cincinatti)
- Drafted by the Cincinnati Royals in the 1st round (1st pick) of the 1960 NBA draft.
- 1x MVP
- 3x All-Star MVP
- 1961 Rookie of the Year
- 1x Champion
- 1x Olympic Gold Medalist
- 2x NCAA Champion
- 9x All-NBA First Team
- 12x All-Star
- #10 Scoring Average
- #8 Points
- #3 Assist Average
- #4 Assists

10. George Mikan (DePaul)
- 1x All-Star MVP
- 5x Champion
- 6x All-NBA First Team
- 4x All-Star
- 3x Scoring Leader
- #10 Rebounding Average

11. Jerry West (West Virginia)
- Drafted by the Los Angeles Lakers in the 1st round (2nd pick) of the 1960 NBA draft.
- 1x Finals MVP
- 1x All-Star MVP
- 1x Champion
- 1x Olympic Gold Medalist
- 10x All-NBA First Team
- 4x All-Defense First Team
- 13x All-Star
- 1x Scoring Leader
- #5 Scoring Average
- #4 Finals Scoring Average
- #4 Finals Assists
- #4 Finals Games Played

12. Karl Malone (Louisiana Tech)
- Drafted by the Utah Jazz in the 1st round (13th pick) of the 1985 NBA draft.
- 2x MVP
- 2x All-Star MVP
- 2x Olympic Gold Medalist
- 11x All-NBA First Team
- 3x All-Defense First Team
- 13x All-Star
- #2 Points
- #2 Field Goals Made
- #2 Field Goals Attempted
- #9 Steals
- #4 Games Played
- #2 Minutes Played
- #2 Personal Fouls

13. Elgin Baylor (Seattle)
- Drafted by the Minneapolis Lakers in the 1st round (1st pick) of the 1958 NBA draft.
- 1x All-Star MVP
- 1959 Rookie of the Year
- 10x All-NBA First Team
- 11x All-Star
- #4 Scoring Average
- #10 Field Goals Attempted
- #9 Rebounding Average
- #7 Finals Scoring Average
- #3 Finals Rebounds

14. Bob Cousy (Holy Cross)
- Drafted by the Tri-Cities Blackhawks in the 1st round (4th pick) of the 1950 NBA draft.
- 1x MVP
- 2x All-Star MVP
- 6x Champion
- 10x All-NBA First Team
- 13x All-Star
- #2 Finals Assists

15. Julius Erving (UMass)
- Drafted by the Milwaukee Bucks in the 1st round (12th pick) of the 1972 NBA draft.
- 1x MVP
- 3x ABA MVP
- 2x ABA Finals MVP
- 2x All-Star MVP
- 1x Champion
- 5x All-NBA First Team
- 4x All-ABA First Team
- 1x All-Defense First Team (ABA)
- 16x All-Star
- #8 Finals Scoring Average

16. Hakeem Olajuwon (Houston)
- Drafted by the Houston Rockets in the 1st round (1st pick) of the 1984 NBA draft.
- 1x MVP
- 2x Finals MVP
- 2x Defensive Player of the Year
- 2x Champion
- 1x Olympic Gold Medalist
- 6x All-NBA First Team
- 5x All-Defense First Team
- 12x All-Star
- #7 Points
- #6 Field Goals Made
- #9 Field Goals Attempted
- #1 Blocked Shots
- #7 Steals
- #10 Minute Played
- #5 Personal Fouls
- #6 Finals Scoring Average

17. John Havlicek (Ohio State)
- Drafted by the Boston Celtics in the 1st round (9th pick) of the 1962 NBA draft.
- 1x Finals MVP
- 8x Champion
- 1x NCAA Champion
- 4x All-NBA First Team
- 5x All-Defense First Team
- 13x All-Star
- #9 Points
- #5 Field Goals Attempted
- #8 Field Goals Made
- #7 Minutes Played

18. Moses Malone (Petersburg HS)
- 3x MVP
- 1x Finals MVP
- 1x Champion
- 4x All-NBA First Team
- 1x All-Defense First Team
- 12x All-Star
- #5 Points
- #5 Rebounds
- #8 Games Played
- #10 Minutes Played

19. Tim Duncan (Wake Forest)
- Drafted by the San Antonio Spurs in the 1st round (1st pick) of the 1997 NBA draft.
- 2x MVP
- 3x Finals MVP
- 1x All-Star MVP
- 1998 Rookie of the Year
- 3x Champion
- 8x All-NBA First Team
- 6x All-Defense First Team
- 8x All-Star

20. Charles Barkley (Auburn)
- Drafted by the Philadelphia 76ers in the 1st round (5th pick) of the 1984 NBA draft.
- 1x MVP
- 1x All-Star MVP
- 2x Olympic Gold Medalist
- 5x All-NBA First Team
- 11x All-Star

21. Isiah Thomas (Indiana)
- Drafted by the Detroit Pistons in the 1st round (2nd pick) of the 1981 NBA draft.
- 1x Finals MVP
- 2x All-Star MVP
- 2x Champion
- 1x NCAA Champion
- 3x All-NBA First Team
- 11x All-Star
- #4 Assist Average
- #5 Assists

22. Elvin Hayes (Houston)
- Drafted by the San Diego Rockets in the 1st round (1st pick) of the 1968 NBA draft.
- 1x Scoring Leader
- 3x All-NBA First Team
- 12x All-Star
- #6 Points
- #5 Field Goals Made
- #4 Field Goals Attempted
- #4 Rebounds
- #10 Games Played
- #3 Minutes Played
- #7 Personal Fouls

23. David Robinson (Navy)
- Drafted by the San Antonio Spurs in the 1st round (1st pick) of the 1987 NBA draft.
- 1x MVP
- 1990 Rookie of the Year
- 1x Defensive Player of the Year
- 2x Champion
- 2x Olympic Gold Medalist
- 4x All-NBA First Team
- 4x All-Defense First Team
- 10x All-Star
- 1x Scoring Leader
- #5 Blocked Shots

24. Dolph Schayes (NYU)
- Drafted by the New York Knickerbockers in the 1st round (4th pick) of the 1948 BAA draft.
- 1x Champion
- 6x All-NBA First Team
- 12x All-Star

25. John Stockton (Gonzaga)
- Drafted by the Utah Jazz in the 1st round (16th pick) of the 1984 NBA draft.
- 1x All-Star MVP
- 2x Olympic Gold Medalist
- 2x All-NBA First Team
- 10x All-Star
- #2 Assist Average
- #1 Assists
- #1 Steals
- #3 Games Played
- #5 Minutes Played

26. Kobe Bryant (Lower Merion HS)
- Drafted by the Charlotte Hornets in the 1st round (13th pick) of the 1996 NBA draft.
- 1x All-Star MVP
- 3x Champion
- 4x All-NBA First Team
- 4x All-Defense First Team
- 8x All-Star
- 1x Scoring Leader

27. Rick Barry (Miami)
- Drafted by the San Francisco Warriors in the 1st round (4th pick) of the 1965 NBA draft.
- 1x Finals MVP
- 1x All-Star MVP
- 1966 Rookie of the Year
- 1x Champion
- 5x All-NBA First Team
- 4x All-ABA First Team
- 12x All-Star
- 1x Scoring Leader
- #2 Free Throw Percentage
- #1 Finals Scoring Average

28. Scottie Pippen (Central Arkansas)
- Drafted by the Seattle Supersonics in the 1st round (5th pick) of the 1987 NBA draft.
- 1x All-Star MVP
- 6x Champion
- 2x Olympic Gold Medalist
- 3x All-NBA First Team
- 8x All-Defense First Team
- 7x All-Star

29. Willis Reed (Grambling)
- Drafted by the New York Knickerbockers in the 2nd round (1st pick) of the 1964 NBA draft.
- 1x MVP
- 2x Finals MVP
- 1x All-Star MVP
- 1965 Rookie of the Year
- 2x Champion
- 1x All-NBA First Team
- 1x All-Defense First Team
- 7x All-Star

30. Allen Iverson (Georgetown)
- Drafted by the Philadelphia 76ers in the 1st round (1st pick) of the 1996 NBA draft.
- 1x MVP
- 2x All-Star MVP
- 1997 Rookie of the Year
- 3x All-NBA First Team
- 7x All-Star
- 4x Scoring Leader
- #3 Scoring Average

31. Jerry Lucas (Ohio State)
- Drafted by the Cincinnati Royals in the 1st round (6th pick) of the 1962 NBA draft.
- 1x All-Star MVP
- 1964 Rookie of the Year
- 1x Champion
- 1x NCAA Champion
- 1x Olympic Gold Medalist
- 3x All-NBA First Team
- 7x All-Star
- #4 Rebounding Average

32. Patrick Ewing (Georgetown)
- Drafted by the New York Knicks in the 1st round (1st pick) of the 1985 NBA draft.
- 1986 Rookie of the Year
- 2x Olympic Gold Medalist
- 1x NCAA Champion
- 1x All-NBA First Team
- 11x All-Star
- #6 Blocked Shots

33. George Gervin (East Michigan)
- Drafted by the Phoenix Suns in the 3rd round (4th pick) of the 1974 NBA draft.
- 1x All-Star MVP
- 4x Scoring Leader
- 5x All-NBA First Team
- 12x All-Star
- #8 Scoring Average

34. Walt Frazier (Southern Illinois)
- Drafted by the New York Knickerbockers in the 1st round (5th pick) of the 1967 NBA draft.
- 1x All-Star MVP
- 2x Champion
- 4x All-NBA First Team
- 7x All-Defense First Team
- 7x All-Star

35. Neil Johnston (Ohio State)
- 1x Champion
- 4x All-NBA First Team
- 6x All-Star
- 3x Scoring Leader

36. Jason Kidd (California)
- Drafted by the Dallas Mavericks in the 1st round (2nd pick) of the 1994 NBA draft.
- 1995 Rookie of the Year
- 1x Olympic Gold Medalist
- 5x All-NBA First Team
- 4x All-Defense First Team
- 7x All-Star
- #5 Assist Average
- #8 Assists

37. Paul Arizin (Villanova)
- Drafted by the Philadelphia Warriors in the 1st round (3rd pick) of the 1950 NBA draft.
- 1x All-Star MVP
- 1x Champion
- 3x All-NBA First Team
- 10x All-Star
- 1x Scoring Leader

38. Bob McAdoo (North Carolina)
- Drafted by the Buffalo Braves in the 1st round (2nd pick) of the 1972 NBA draft.
- 1x MVP
- 1973 Rookie of the Year
- 2x Champion
- 1x All-NBA First Team
- 5x All-Star
- 3x Scoring Leader

39. Dave Cowens (Florida State)
- Drafted by the Boston Celtics in the 1st round (4th pick) of the 1970 NBA draft.
- 1x MVP
- 1x All-Star
- 1971 Rookie of the Year
- 2x Champion
- 1x All-Defense First Team
- 7x All-Star
- #8 Rebounding Average

40. Nate Archibald (UTEP)
- Drafted by the Cincinnati Royals in the 2nd round (2nd pick) of the 1970 NBA draft.
- 1x All-Star MVP
- 1x Champion
- 3x All-NBA First Team
- 6x All-Star
- 1x Scoring Leader

41. Clyde Drexler (Houston)
- Drafted by the Portland Trail Blazers in the 1st round (14th pick) of the 1983 NBA draft.
- 1x Champion
- 1x Olympic Gold Medalist
- 1x All-NBA First Team
- 10x All-Star
- #6 Steals
- #10 Finals Scoring Average

42. Dominique Wilkins (Georgia)
- Drafted by the Utah Jazz in the 1st round (3rd pick) of the 1982 NBA draft.
- 1x All-NBA First Team
- 9x All-Star
- 1x Scoring Leader
- #10 Scoring Average
- #9 Points
- #9 Field Goals Made
- #7 Field Goals Attempted

43. Bill Sharman (USC)
- Drafted by the Washington Capitols in the 2nd round of the 1950 NBA draft.
- 1x All-Star MVP
- 4x Champion
- 4x All-NBA First Team
- 8x All-Star
- #10 Free Throw Percentage

44. Tommy Heinsohn (Holy Cross)
- Drafted by the Boston Celtics in the 1st round (6th pick) of the 1956 NBA draft.
- 1957 Rookie of the Year
- 8x Champion
- 6x All-Star

45. Wes Unseld (Louisville)
- Drafted by the Baltimore Bullets in the 1st round (2nd pick) of the 1968 NBA draft.
- 1x MVP
- 1x Finals MVP
- 1969 Rookie of the Year
- 1x Champion
- 1x All-NBA First Team
- 5x All-Star
- #6 Rebounding Average
- #10 Rebounds

46. Sam Jones (NC Central)
- Drafted by the Boston Celtics in the 1st round (8th pick) of the 1957 NBA draft.
- 8x Champion
- 5x All-Star

47. Kevin Garnett (Farragut Academy)
- Drafted by the Minnesota Timberwolves in the 1st round (5th pick) of the 1995 NBA draft.
- 1x MVP
- 1x All-Star MVP
- 1x Olympic Gold Medalist
- 3x All-NBA First Team
- 6x All-Defense First Team
- 9x All-Star

48. Gary Payton (Oregon State)
- Drafted by the Seattle Supersonics in the 1st round (2nd pick) of the 1990 NBA draft.
- 1x Defensive Player of the Year
- 1x Champion
- 2x Olympic Gold Medalist
- 2x All-NBA First Team
- 9x All-Defense First Team
- 9x All-Star
- #6 Assists
- #3 Steals
- #9 Minutes Played

49. Billy Cunningham (UNC)
- Drafted by the Philadelphia 76ers in the 1st round (7th pick) of the 1965 NBA draft.
- 1x ABA MVP
- 1x Champion
- 3x All-NBA First Team
- 1x All-ABA First Team
- 5x All-Star

50. Bill Walton (UCLA)
- Drafted by the Portland Trailblazers in the 1st round (1st pick) of the 1974 NBA draft.
- 1x MVP
- 1x Finals MVP
- 1x Sixth Man of the Year
- 2x Champion
- 2x NBA Champion
- 1x All-NBA First Team
- 2x All-Defense First Team
- 2x All-Star

Tim duncan is rank too low at 19, IMO he is the GOAT PF to ever play the game yet he or no pf cracks the top 10, yet you see bird up there, where duncan has the same accomplishments as him except total statistics...

[Leetonidas]

Tim should definetly be in the Top 15.

[TDMVPDPOY]

alot of guys up there rankin 5-19 ahead of duncan is very questionable, besides accrueling statistics over their career that is the only negative to duncans CV, while he has more accomplishments then them. I thought basketball is about winnin championships, if its about statistics then KG should be up in top 20 then...

duncan right now is at least top 12, knockin out malone, dr.j, baylor, shaq, west, mikan, oscar, petit and bird.

olajuwon is rank too low imo.

Karl malone is rank to high, while stockton is rank around 25, the both of them should be closer to each other as each were dependable on each others game.

[NBA Junkie]

Does anyone else have a problem with the oft-injured Bill Walton making the list?

I sure do, and it has nothing to do with his color analyst duties.

[TDMVPDPOY]

yeh bill walton didnt do shit in the nba, short career imo, hell nash hasnt done much compared to him but dude has b2b mvps, should get sum recognition though

[jman3000]

duncan right now is at least top 12, knockin out malone, dr.j, baylor, shaq, west, mikan, oscar, petit and bird.



.

ummm ... shaq? bird? oscar? west? are you serious?

[RogerIsEatingASandwich]

Karl Malon is ranked wayyyyyy too fucking high. Stockton ranked at 25 is too low. Some guys need to be flip-flopped around....

Cool list though....

[G0D]

Karl Malone ahead of duncan and olajuwan? ooooooooooooooookkkkk :nope

IMO the people who played before the 60's shouldnt even be on this list. the athletes were horiible back then. Paul Arizin? um.. no. i've seen every single player on this list and watched every minute of every game. Paul Arizin=no better than brent barry. George Mikan was ok, but he's about as good as Chris Mihm. truth hurts

[exstatic]

Karl Malone ahead of duncan and olajuwan? ooooooooooooooookkkkk :nope

IMO the people who played before the 60's shouldnt even be on this list. the athletes were horiible back then. Paul Arizin? um.. no. i've seen every single player on this list and watched every minute of every game. Paul Arizin=no better than brent barry. George Mikan was ok, but he's about as good as Chris Mihm. truth hurts
Where's your bible verse, or did you just forget to sign out before you wanted to talk hoops, G0D?

My issues were actually with players WELL after 1960: Barkley, Pip, and Ewing.

[JamStone]

At least most of you guys are unbiased. :rolleyes

[G0D]

Where's your bible verse, or did you just forget to sign out before you wanted to talk hoops, G0D?

My issues were actually with players WELL after 1960: Barkley, Pip, and Ewing.

tommorrow's sunday, you will get a heavy dose of bible verses then, but since thou has asked:

"And I will take away his blood out of his mouth, and his abominations from between his teeth: but he that remaineth, even he, shall be for our God, and he shall be as a governor in Judah, and Ekron as a Jebusite. "

-Zechariah 9:7

[sanman53]

Duncan should DEF be ahead of malone.

And 11 rings for Russell is totally amazing!

[Bob Lanier]

Shaq at #7? Foolishness.

[adidas11]

This list sounds about right. Duncan hurt his 'ranking' with his performances in last year's playoffs (2005), and the entire season this year (2005-2006)

[awmyplace]

tommorrow's sunday, you will get a heavy dose of bible verses then, but since thou has asked:

"And I will take away his blood out of his mouth, and his abominations from between his teeth: but he that remaineth, even he, shall be for our God, and he shall be as a governor in Judah, and Ekron as a Jebusite. "

-Zechariah 9:7

Do you like basketball?

[baseline bum]

This list sounds about right. Duncan hurt his 'ranking' with his performances in last year's playoffs (2005), and the entire season this year (2005-2006)

... and yet Shaq doesn't hurt his rankings by scoring 13.7 in the Finals? So even in a down playoffs where he's playing on two badly sprained ankles, Duncan was Finals MVP, against both Wallaces. What's Shaq's excuse? DeSagana Diop and Dampier too much for him?

[Obstructed_View]

Does anyone else have a problem with the oft-injured Bill Walton making the list?

I sure do, and it has nothing to do with his color analyst duties.
If you are going by career longevity or by numbers, then he probably does not belong on the list. If you are actually making a "50 greatest players" list, and going by what he did when he was healthy, that puts his dog in the race. I think he averaged something like 3.5 blocks per game one season. That's in addition to 15 boards. That he was possibly the greatest college basketball player of all time helps to influence the voters as well.

[Obstructed_View]

This list sounds about right. Duncan hurt his 'ranking' with his performances in last year's playoffs (2005), and the entire season this year (2005-2006)
That's just stupid.

[G0D]

Do you like basketball?

i love everything on Earth since i created it all.

[jacobdrj]

i love everything on Earth since i created it all.

As I am sure you have noted yourself, you still made the avocado pit too big, and the moose too ugly...

[PaceMonster]

Wow why do u guys hate Shaq soo much? You're always talking about how the rings matter the most....well Shaq has 4 rings(more than Duncan), and 3 Finals MVP's....not to include that he has a higher career scoring average, higher career Blocks per game, and higher career FG%....while Duncan takes assists. rebounds by .2 and FT%.....now how is he supposed to be ranked ahead of Shaq??

[J.T.]

We hate Shaq because he was a conference rival for many years and blocked us from winning the championship a few times and from repeating once. I bet there are a lot of Laker fans that have the Spurs for knocking the Lakers off their 3-peat. It's just part of having a rivalry. Looks like our new hate man is Dirk though.

[ShoogarBear]

-Gervin should have been bolded.

-Duncan > Shaq for multiple reasons:
-Shaq can't win a championship without a Kobe or Wade propping him up.
-Shaq has played 14 years. Discounting the lockout, he has played less than 75 games in NINE out of THIRTEEN years. He's a China Doll/bloated fat boy.
-Shaq has been on the All-Defensive team a grand total of three times; none of them first-team. Duncan has 6 first-team and 3 second-team selections.

-Karl Malone and Elvin Hayes are too high. DRob > Hayes.

-Duncan and Garnett are too low? Tommy Heinsohn > Garnett? Give me a fucking break.

[sanman53]

Shaq has played 14 years. Discounting the lockout, he has played less than 75 games in NINE out of THIRTEEN years. He's a China Doll/bloated fat boy.
-Shaq has been on the All-Defensive team a grand total of three times; none of them first-team. Duncan has 6 first-team and 3 second-team selections.

NICE STUFF!
My friend swears the only reason Shaq made the orginal Top50 was because of what he was going to do in the league.

[ATX Spur]

Duncan, Dream, and Kobe will all be higher. Time will judge.

[mabber]

Wow why do u guys hate Shaq soo much? You're always talking about how the rings matter the most....well Shaq has 4 rings(more than Duncan), and 3 Finals MVP's....not to include that he has a higher career scoring average, higher career Blocks per game, and higher career FG%....while Duncan takes assists. rebounds by .2 and FT%.....now how is he supposed to be ranked ahead of Shaq??

I found that humorous as well. Spurs fans (actually any fans of teams/players with multiple titles/rings) only pull out the "ring card" when it fits their argument. :lol

[awmyplace]

i love everything on Earth since i created it all.

Good!

[G0D]

I found that humorous as well. Spurs fans (actually any fans of teams/players with multiple titles/rings) only pull out the "ring card" when it fits their argument. :lol

yes i did find that particularly funny. after the Mavs won the series the only thing they could say was "3 rings, 3 rings, 3rings!" as if it actually mattered anymore.

[baseline bum]

I found that humorous as well. Spurs fans (actually any fans of teams/players with multiple titles/rings) only pull out the "ring card" when it fits their argument. :lol

It's a nice card to go to that shows Duncan has carried his team to the top of the mountain multiple times. How is it not relevant, when Tim's a little more than one year removed from his last championship?

[ShoogarBear]

I found that humorous as well. Spurs fans (actually any fans of teams/players with multiple titles/rings) only pull out the "ring card" when it fits their argument. :lol

-Shaq can't win a championship without a Kobe or Wade propping him up.
-Shaq has played 14 years. Discounting the lockout, he has played less than 75 games in NINE out of THIRTEEN years. He's a China Doll/bloated fat boy.
-Shaq has been on the All-Defensive team a grand total of three times; none of them first-team. Duncan has 6 first-team and 3 second-team selections.


I find it humorous how 99% of Mav Fans can't read or contribute intelligently to any basketball discussion.

[texlawman]

Kevin Garnett should be higher. Much better than 42.
Where is Benard King?

[jman3000]

Where is Benard King?

Most likely?

Rehab.

[Obstructed_View]

NICE STUFF!
My friend swears the only reason Shaq made the orginal Top50 was because of what he was going to do in the league.
That's exactly right. Shaq in no way deserved to be on the original top 50 team. He had only been in the league a couple of years. He absolutely deserves to be very high on the new one.

[jman3000]

yep ... he had only been in the league about 3.. maybe 4 years at that point... they chose him instead of other deserving candidates solely based on what he might do... if he had had a career ending injury the year after ... no way he belongs on the top 50, but now he does and for obvious reasons.

[Winnipeg_Spur]

I've got no problem with Shaq over Duncan, a choke artist like Malone on the other hand, not so much...

[STEVEYCU]

D rob is the shit and ranked to low, he had a seventy point game and a quad double was probably the second best player in the NBA during his prime but only cause he played when Jordan (number one) did, and wasnt he Shaqs role model growin up.

[DirkAB]

D rob is the shit and ranked to low, he had a seventy point game and a quad double was probably the second best player in the NBA during his prime but only cause he played when Jordan (number one) did, and wasnt he Shaqs role model growin up.


2nd best player during his prime? That's a joke, get off the dudes dick.

[jman3000]

he has an argument ... during the early - mid 90's DRob was a beast. I know there were other great players during that time as well... but an argument could be made that 5-0 was the 2nd best player out of em....

i dont think he meant best nba player ever.

[sanman53]

he has an argument ... during the early - mid 90's DRob was a beast. I know there were other great players during that time as well... but an argument could be made that 5-0 was the 2nd best player out of em....

i dont think he meant best nba player ever.

Watching D-Rob play in the early 90's was what made me start cheering for the Spurs. His speed for a big was amazing! I agree and will not say he is the best player ever, but he is def my fav player ever.

I also remember Shaq challenging Drob to a charity boxing match when Drob beat him for the scoring title. Drob would have destoryed Shaq!

[Phenomanul]

2nd best player during his prime? That's a joke, get off the dudes dick.

:rolleyes
You lost your Anti-David argument in a 30 page thread... drop it already....

And if you can't at least accept the fact that Robinson was immensely underrated well then accept the fact that THIS IS A SPURS FORUM.

[Obstructed_View]

he has an argument ... during the early - mid 90's DRob was a beast. I know there were other great players during that time as well... but an argument could be made that 5-0 was the 2nd best player out of em....

i dont think he meant best nba player ever.
If you were to average what he did through his prime you could probably make the case that he was statistically the second best player through that period pretty easily. That said, 50 was never actually the second best player in the NBA at any given time. His complete lack of success in the playoffs will seal him from going higher on most lists as a result. Timmy getting him a couple of rings is good for a few spots he doesn't deserve, but that's it.

[1Parker1]

:lmao :lmao @ Karl Malone getting ranked at #12, while Stockton is #25.

[1Parker1]

Oh, and I'd take Tim Duncan over Karl Malone any day of the week. Karl Malone was one of the biggest chokers, ever. Yet, NBA "historians" always seem to forget this. They also seem to forget that he had arguably one of the Top 3 PG's in the HISTORY of the league playing next to him, feeding him the ball.

Which leads me to...where's the Great Steve Nash, 2 time back to back MVP, on this list???? :angel

[NBA Junkie]

Which leads me to...where's the Great Steve Nash, 2 time back to back MVP, on this list???? :angel

The judges disqualified him after they got a look at his latest buzzcut.

[mabber]

Oh, and I'd take Tim Duncan over Karl Malone any day of the week. Karl Malone was one of the biggest chokers, ever. Yet, NBA "historians" always seem to forget this. They also seem to forget that he had arguably one of the Top 3 PG's in the HISTORY of the league playing next to him, feeding him the ball.

Which leads me to...where's the Great Steve Nash, 2 time back to back MVP, on this list???? :angel

I'd rank Duncan over Malone but I don't understand why you consider Malone a choker? He & Stockton led the Jazz to 2 NBA finals (lost to Jordan's Bulls like every other team did) and had much success. I'm not a Jazz fan and I never really liked Malone (thought he was kind of a jerk) but I don't see the choker label applying here.

[Obstructed_View]

They also seem to forget that he had arguably one of the Top 3 PG's in the HISTORY of the league playing next to him, feeding him the ball.

Speaking of forgetful, I'm having a problem thinking of two point guards who are or were better than Stockton.


I'd rank Duncan over Malone but I don't understand why you consider Malone a choker? He & Stockton led the Jazz to 2 NBA finals (lost to Jordan's Bulls like every other team did) and had much success. I'm not a Jazz fan and I never really liked Malone (thought he was kind of a jerk) but I don't see the choker label applying here.
If Karl Malone is a choker I shudder to think what that makes David Robinson.

[mabber]

Speaking of forgetful, I'm having a problem thinking of two point guards who are or were better than Stockton.

Magic was pretty good. I've heard Cousy was really good but never saw him play. I'm having a hard time as well thinking of others better than Stockton.

[1Parker1]

I was thinking Magic, obviously...and I said arguably top 3 because I figured there would be people who would find at least another PG better than Stockton (Kidd, Nash, Cousy, etc. ). Anyways, the point was, Malone at 12 and Stockton all the way at 25 just doesn't make sense.

As for Malone being a choker? The Mailman don't deliver on Sundays...

[ShoogarBear]

Which leads me to...where's the Great Steve Nash, 2 time back to back MVP, on this list???? :angel
Man, how did miss the opportunity to wail on that one?

I guess they decided they didn't want to have to explain the only b2b MVP to never reach the Finals.

[1Parker1]

Man, how did miss the opportunity to wail on that one?

I guess they decided they didn't want to have to explain the only b2b MVP to never reach the Finals.

:lol Exactly...I'm still pissed he won the award last season. Unbelievable...he's not even in the freakin Top 50 of all time, yet he joins rare company on that list to win back to back league MVP's.

[Leetonidas]

Speaking of forgetful, I'm having a problem thinking of two point guards who are or were better than Stockton.

Magic and Jerry West

[mabber]

Magic and Jerry West

Was Jerry West the PG for the Lakers? I was thinking he was the 2 guard but I could be wrong. I know they had Gail Goodrich for a lot of the time that West was there.

[jman3000]

Jerry was was the 2 if memory serves me right ... could be wrong, but Stockton was definately the best pure point guard. Magic was a better player, and for obvious reasons; he could play damn near 5 positions, could score, could pass, could rebound well for his postion, and ran one of the most deadly fast breaks in NBA history. With all that being said, I think Stockton would get the nod for being strictly a floor general and not the total package like Magic. Stockton was also a dead eye shooter, while Magic was more of a scorer.

[1Parker1]

^Yet he never won a single MVP trophy, unlike a certain Canadian PG :lol

[awmyplace]

^Yet he never won a single MVP trophy, unlike a certain Canadian PG :lol

:lol

[mabber]

Jerry was was the 2 if memory serves me right ... could be wrong, but Stockton was definately the best pure point guard. Magic was a better player, and for obvious reasons; he could play damn near 5 positions, could score, could pass, could rebound well for his postion, and ran one of the most deadly fast breaks in NBA history. With all that being said, I think Stockton would get the nod for being strictly a floor general and not the total package like Magic. Stockton was also a dead eye shooter, while Magic was more of a scorer.

I agree.

[jman3000]

^Yet he never won a single MVP trophy, unlike a certain Canadian PG :lol

I don't agree that Nash should have won b2b MVP's ... but Stockton's case was different in that nobody really knew if it was Stockton that made Malone so good or Malone that made Stockton so good because they both started playing with eachother from just about the start. Obviously it was a little bit of both ... but who would you choose if you were a voter? A large, high scoring PF ... or a scrawny, short, white guy of a PG?


In Nash's case, he went an entire year without the help of the Sun's (supposedly) best player and still managed to lead them to a division crown. So we know who runs that ship.


I needed to go back and edit because you couldn't tell if I was describing Nash/Amare or Stockton/Malone ...

[Obstructed_View]

Zeke from Cabin Creek was not a point guard, but he was by far the best passer on the team and the guy handling the ball much of the time. A case could be made for Cousy or Isiah but I personally don't buy it. If Stockton were only the all-time leader in assists I might say Malone made him great. Stock also is the all-time leader in steals. I saw him rattle off points in bunches in crunch time so many times that I believe he could have averaged 20 to 25 points per game without Malone. He just realized that 15 points and 15 assists was better for the team.

[jman3000]

He's also the all-time leader in boney elbows thrown.

[Obstructed_View]

He's also the all-time leader in boney elbows thrown.
Yeah, he was a dirty little motherfucker who hated to lose. I'd take him on my team every day of the week.

[ShoogarBear]

Why is it that Stockton Dirty = "tough, hates to lose" and Malone Dirty = "evil mofo, kill him"?

[Viva Las Espuelas]

I found that humorous as well. Spurs fans (actually any fans of teams/players with multiple titles/rings) only pull out the "ring card" when it fits their argument. :lol
one day you'll be able to.

[mabber]

Yeah, he was a dirty little motherfucker who hated to lose. I'd take him on my team every day of the week.

Stockton and Malone complanied to the refs more than any players I've ever seen play as well. It was easier to see this when you saw them in person. Both of them would complain about every friggin call.

[Obstructed_View]

Why is it that Stockton Dirty = "tough, hates to lose" and Malone Dirty = "evil mofo, kill him"?
Let's see: Isiah's 40 stitches, Joe Klein's crushed nose, Donyell Marshall's cracked rib, Robert Horry's balls, Robinson getting knocked out, Steve Nash's missing front tooth, Shawn Bradley's kicked gut. These are all incidents I remember.

How about when he was in college and hit Dave Ramer with an elbow so hard he had a collapsed sinus and shattered eye socket?

That is a far fucking cry from fighting through picks, diving to the floor and hustling for rebounds. The only thing Stockton and Malone had in common was that they were on the same team.

[Obstructed_View]

Stockton and Malone complanied to the refs more than any players I've ever seen play as well. It was easier to see this when you saw them in person. Both of them would complain about every friggin call.
So does everyone on your team. Does that make them dirty?

[NBA Junkie]

Speaking of forgetful, I'm having a problem thinking of two point guards who are or were better than Stockton.

Easily, Magic and Oscar Robertson. The big "O" was probably the greatest ever.

[mabber]

So does everyone on your team. Does that make them dirty?

Calm down, I wasn't calling them dirty. I was just pointing out something I noticed (how much they complained) while watching them play in person several times. I'm with you, I'd take Stockton on my team everytime.

[mabber]

Easily, Magic and Oscar Robertson. The big "O" was probably the greatest ever.

Oh yeah, Oscar Robertson. I knew I was forgetting someone. Never saw him play but I've heard & read that he was the best PG ever.

[whottt]

The biggest travesty in this whole thing is the fact that George Gervin wasn't bolded.

Going to fix that now...

Sheeesh, guy isn't even recognized by fans of his own team....is there any doubt he probably deserves to be higher?

You could argue, easily, that George Gervin is the second or third best SG in NBA history and the only one that clearly ranks ahead of him is Jordan(if you even want to consider Jordan as a 2 guard)...

If you don't, it comes down to Gervin and Jerry West...

[FromWayDowntown]

Something about that list makes me think back to the summer of 1992 and watching the U.S. Men's Senior National Team run through the world without any real challenge. It's not surprising, when you consider that 10 of the 12 players on that team are legitmately in the top 41 players in the history of the world's greatest league, that 4 members of that team are in the all-time top 12, and that 3 are in the top 6:

#1 - Michael Jordan
#5 - Magic Johnson
#6 - Larry Bird
#12 - Karl Malone
#20 - Charles Barkley
#23 - David Robinson
#25 - John Stockton
#28 - Scottie Pippen
#32 - Patrick Ewing
#41 - Clyde Drexler

What's scarier is that in place of Christian Laettner and Chris Mullin, Team USA could have easily included Shaquille O'Neal (#7) and Isiah Thomas (#21). It was truly magnificent to watch that group play, even against crappy competition -- we'll never see anything like it again.

[whottt]

Add me to the list of guys that think Bill Walton doesn't deserve to be on this list....


If Walton gave you 45 games as a starter he was having an Ironman season.


If I am drafting to build a perennial champion and I can see the careers of all the players before they happen...there are probably 50 guys, not on this list, that I am taking before Bill Walton.

[whottt]

If Karl Malone is a choker I shudder to think what that makes David Robinson.



A two time champion...with lesser talent.

And Malone blatantly did choke way one of his title chances, right in front of the whole world.

[whottt]

Let's see: Isiah's 40 stitches, Joe Klein's crushed nose, Donyell Marshall's cracked rib, Robert Horry's balls, Robinson getting knocked out, Steve Nash's missing front tooth, Shawn Bradley's kicked gut. These are all incidents I remember.

How about when he was in college and hit Dave Ramer with an elbow so hard he had a collapsed sinus and shattered eye socket?

That is a far fucking cry from fighting through picks, diving to the floor and hustling for rebounds. The only thing Stockton and Malone had in common was that they were on the same team.


This is a good take...you pretty much owned Shoogar with it...however it's still not good enough to take away your previous bad one concerning the Admiral VS Malone.

Just be sure you remember that when DRob got a second Superstar he finished his career on like a 20 game winning streak against Malone(and Duncan never beat Malone in the playoffs either).

[FromWayDowntown]

Bill Walton is a no-brainer Hall-of-Famer because the criteria include basketball at all levels and in all countries. And while he had a run of excellent (if incomplete) seasons from 75-76 through 77-78, his NBA career is fairly pedestrian compared to the remainder of the players on the top 50 list. How he made the original list in 1997 is a mystery to me -- I thought then that the Walton and Shaq inclusions were probably the most curious. How he can remain on anyone's top 50 NBA list is beyond me. He'd undoubtedly be a top-5 to 10 collegiate player of all-time, but not NBA.

[mabber]

The biggest travesty in this whole thing is the fact that George Gervin wasn't bolded.

Going to fix that now...

Sheeesh, guy isn't even recognized by fans of his own team....is there any doubt he probably deserves to be higher?

You could argue, easily, that George Gervin is the second or third best SG in NBA history and the only one that clearly ranks ahead of him is Jordan(if you even want to consider Jordan as a 2 guard)...

If you don't, it comes down to Gervin and Jerry West...

And I got dogged for saying that Ginobli didn't belong to be held in the same regard are Iceman. :lol Iceman was a great player!!!

[MrChug]

Things that stand out? Olajuwon as shitty as #16. The Big O behind Bob Pettit and Heinsohn/Gary Payton anywhere on that fuckin list.

[ShoogarBear]

This is a good take...you pretty much owned Shoogar with it...however it's still not good enough to take away your previous bad one concerning the Admiral VS Malone.

Just be sure you remember that when DRob got a second Superstar he finished his career on like a 20 game winning streak against Malone(and Duncan never beat Malone in the playoffs either).
Yeah, right. Bullshit. Stockton was as dirty as they ever have come, kneeing people in the groin as he set picks. Just because he's a little white guy, though, he's "tough" and "gritty", while Malone is a thug. Okay.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Yeah, right. Bullshit. Stockton was as dirty as they ever have come, kneeing people in the groin as he set picks. Just because he's a little white guy, though, he's "tough" and "gritty", while Malone is a thug. Okay.

I think it's more because Stockton is 'little' rather than the 'white' part.

If you're bigger than the other kids and you push them around you're a bully and hated. If you're smaller and you act the same way you're either a fighter or a scrapper and admired for it.

[mikejones99]

no fucking mavericks at least

[ShoogarBear]

I think it's more because Stockton is 'little' rather than the 'white' part.

If you're bigger than the other kids and you push them around you're a bully and hated. If you're smaller and you act the same way you're either a fighter or a scrapper and admired for it.
The "white" part was just a figure of speech. But I agree: The only reason Stockton didn't hurt anybody is because he wasn't big enough to.

[G0D]

if Paul Arizin is on that list, Brent Barry should be on it too. i've watched every minute of every game of both these players. they are the exact same. the difference is Barry is going against people who can leap out of the gym and can run sub-5 forties. while Paul Arizin was competing against 30 yr old out of shape men who played before the forward pass was even invented

[ShoogarBear]

^ :lmao

[G0D]

seriously think about it. if Baron Davis played in that time frame instead of Bob Cousy, he'd be a legend. hell, Devin Harris would be on this list if he played in the 50's. :lol

[mabber]

seriously think about it. if Baron Davis played in that time frame instead of Bob Cousy, he'd be a legend. hell, Devin Harris would be on this list if he played in the 50's. :lol

Not necessarily. Cousy was a great player. Just because he played closer to the floor than most of the current players doesn't make them as good or better. The game has changed because the players are more athletic now but that certainly doesn't mean they're better basketball players.

I'd take Bob Cousy over Baron Davis or Devin Harris everytime.

[Obstructed_View]

A two time champion...with lesser talent.

And Malone blatantly did choke way one of his title chances, right in front of the whole world.
Tim Duncan is lesser talent? You need your fucking head examined.

[Leetonidas]

Tim Duncan is lesser talent? You need your fucking head examined.

He said two time champ, so I'm pretty sure he was reffering to the post when someone said "if Karl Malone is a choke artist, what is David Robinson" or something like that.

[Obstructed_View]

Yeah, right. Bullshit. Stockton was as dirty as they ever have come, kneeing people in the groin as he set picks. Just because he's a little white guy, though, he's "tough" and "gritty", while Malone is a thug. Okay.
Name one time that Stockton has intentionally hurt or injured, or even got in a fight for attempting to injure someone in a game. Then when you find ten more similar examples of same then come in here and compare him to Malone. Otherwise shut up because the argument couldn't be more lame. Malone is BY FAR the dirtiest player in the history of the NBA, and nobody else comes close. Don't throw Stockton under the bus for playing hard because he happened to be Malone's teammate.

[Obstructed_View]

He said two time champ, so I'm pretty sure he was reffering to the post when someone said "if Karl Malone is a choke artist, what is David Robinson" or something like that.
Right. I'm the one that said that. David Robinson was a two time champ with Tim Duncan. Before that he was a guy that lost in the playoffs to underdogs almost every single year. I don't like the Mailman, but if you call Malone a choker, you have to call Robinson a choker. That's all I'm saying.

[G0D]

Not necessarily. Cousy was a great player. Just because he played closer to the floor than most of the current players doesn't make them as good or better. The game has changed because the players are more athletic now but that certainly doesn't mean they're better basketball players.

I'd take Bob Cousy over Baron Davis or Devin Harris everytime.

i'd take Baron Davis in a heartbeat. i didnt say Harris was better, just that he'd be on the list

[mabber]

i'd take Baron Davis in a heartbeat. i didnt say Harris was better, just that he'd be on the list

Cousy & I would be winning championships while you & Davis would be trying to win the lottery. :lol

[Leetonidas]

Right. I'm the one that said that. David Robinson was a two time champ with Tim Duncan. Before that he was a guy that lost in the playoffs to underdogs almost every single year. I don't like the Mailman, but if you call Malone a choker, you have to call Robinson a choker. That's all I'm saying.

You could also make an arguement that Malone was a bigger choker because David didn't have one of the best PGs ever.

[G0D]

Cousy & I would be winning championships while you & Davis would be trying to win the lottery. :lol

sorry you must not know who i am.. i never lose ;)

[Obstructed_View]

You could also make an arguement that Malone was a bigger choker because David didn't have one of the best PGs ever.
Yes you could, but you can't make a case that one is a choker and that the other one isn't. That was my only point.

[Obstructed_View]

sorry you must not know who i am.. i never lose ;)
You spell words with numbers. Shut up already.

[Phenomanul]

Yes you could, but you can't make a case that one is a choker and that the other one isn't. That was my only point.


One can...

Robinson cannot be credited with a gaffe like Malone's 1998 Game 6 moment.

Sure, Barkley scored a winning jumper over him...
And Dream made him look like a lampost...

But they were simply a matter of offense beating defense.

Malone had the opportunity to win the game just by holding on to the ball. And what did he do? Cough it up to the player who unfortunately was selected to top that list... not to mention miss the free throw that would have kept them out of reach.

Manu has gaffes to his credit too... but plenty of clutch shots, or plays (steals, rebounds, free-throws, or deflections) to be considered a clutch player as a whole.

[mabber]

One can...

Robinson cannot be credited with a gaffe like Malone's 1998 Game 6 moment.

Sure, Barkley scored a winning jumper over him...
And Dream made him look like a lampost...

But they were simply a matter of offense beating defense.

Malone had the opportunity to win the game just by holding on to the ball. And what did he do? Cough it up to the player who unfortunately was selected to top that list... not to mention miss the free throw that would have kept them out of reach.

Manu has gaffes to his credit too... but plenty of clutch shots, or plays (steals, rebounds, free-throws, or deflections) to be considered a clutch player as a whole.

What does Ginobli have to do with this discussion?

[Obstructed_View]

One can...

Robinson cannot be credited with a gaffe like Malone's 1998 Game 6 moment.

Sure, Barkley scored a winning jumper over him...
And Dream made him look like a lampost...

But they were simply a matter of offense beating defense.

Malone had the opportunity to win the game just by holding on to the ball. And what did he do? Cough it up to the player who unfortunately was selected to top that list... not to mention miss the free throw that would have kept them out of reach.

Manu has gaffes to his credit too... but plenty of clutch shots, or plays (steals, rebounds, free-throws, or deflections) to be considered a clutch player as a whole.

I never said one couldn't make a lame argument. You have certainly proven that.

[Phenomanul]

What does Ginobli have to do with this discussion?


Just thought I would mention the difference in commiting gaffes... and having a tendency to do them... and how all of that relates to a players' clutch/choker reputation... Ginobili is definitely clutch.

[Phenomanul]

I never said one couldn't make a lame argument. You have certainly proven that.

'Lame or not' you are certainly entitled to your opinion... but hey... it certainly beat your substance-less rebuttal (my opinion)....

Malone is a choker. Ended his career as a loser.

Robinson is a champion... and ended his career on top.

[resistanze]

I wouldn't really call being robbed of the ball by the greastest player in the history of the NBA (as well as 2nd all time in STEALS) choking. He did miss some key FTs in both Finals, though.

[Eric Dampier]

Just thought I would mention the difference in commiting gaffes... and having a tendency to do them... and how all of that relates to a players' clutch/choker reputation... Ginobili is definitely clutch.

:lol um... no. we all saw the mental breakdown of that foul on Dirk. and at the end of the game i was trying to throw it away on purpose by giving Ginobli a layup at the end. he didnt even hit the f*ckin rim. :lol

Ginobli is typical Barfentina, east coast, pissbag, greazy trash. who should not be mentioned in the same saliva as this thread.

[Eric Dampier]

o yeah dont even think about calling Duncan clutch either. he traveled in two games against the Mavs that led to two different losses. he missed a potential GW hook shot. missed a wide open dunk at game 7 that would've won the series. i dont care if Nowitzki fouled him, he's strong enough to teabag the German.

face it, the Spurs players all choke more than me at an all you can eat buffet. actually i take that back, i forgot about robert whorey

[Obstructed_View]

'Lame or not' you are certainly entitled to your opinion... but hey... it certainly beat your substance-less rebuttal (my opinion)....

Malone is a choker. Ended his career as a loser.

Robinson is a champion... and ended his career on top.
Okay. Since one play makes all the difference, Manu is a choker. Robinson, despite never elevating his team one single time in the playoffs in his career, did win two titles once he had clutch players around him for him to pass to and to make up for the fact that he couldn't hit a free throw at the end of a game. We won't mention that Robinson lost to the Choker Karl Malone's team in '98 because that's probably Tim Duncan's fault anyway.

[Texas_Ranger]

Tim is number 1 for me.

[Phenomanul]

Okay. Since one play makes all the difference, Manu is a choker. Robinson, despite never elevating his team one single time in the playoffs in his career, did win two titles once he had clutch players around him for him to pass to and to make up for the fact that he couldn't hit a free throw at the end of a game. We won't mention that Robinson lost to the Choker Karl Malone's team in '98 because that's probably Tim Duncan's fault anyway.


See that makes all the difference... I still may not agree with your stance; but at least I know why you feel inclined to believe what you do.

The difference is that Malone had clutch shooters around him his entire career. Robinson never had that luxury during the prime of his career... or for that matter never had a legit 'second star' around him until he became that star for someone else; Duncan.

You can't win titles without clutch shooters... Just ask Jordan (Kerr, Paxon, Kukoc), Hakeem (K. Smith, Cassell, Horry, Ellie), Shaq (Kobe, Fisher, Horry, Wade) and closer to home Duncan himself (D. Jackson, Ellie, Kerr, Horry).

And as far as free-throws are concerned, Malone had a much more frequent tendency to miss them in the clutch.

[Phenomanul]

:lol um... no. we all saw the mental breakdown of that foul on Dirk. and at the end of the game i was trying to throw it away on purpose by giving Ginobli a layup at the end. he didnt even hit the f*ckin rim. :lol

Ginobli is typical Barfentina, east coast, pissbag, greazy trash. who should not be mentioned in the same saliva as this thread.

You obviously didn't see the 2005 Playoffs. If you can counter everything Ginobili meant to the Spurs' third title... go ahead and try. You won't get very far.

And as far as Duncan is concerned.... even if you exclude the extra year he was in the league before Dirk's arrival... Duncan has had more clutch GW shots in that span than Dirk himself.

[mabber]

You obviously didn't see the 2005 Playoffs. If you can counter everything Ginobili meant to the Spurs' third title... go ahead and try. You won't get very far.

And as far as Duncan is concerned.... even if you exclude the extra year he was in the league before Dirk's arrival... Duncan has had more clutch GW shots in that span than Dirk himself.

Dirk really hasn't been clutch at all during his career until this past season. He always seemed to miss the shots at the buzzer to win the game. That changed this past season as he won several games during the regular season and one playoff game (vs. Memphis) with game winning shots. I'm not even counting the big play vs. the Spurs in game 7 cuz even though he did make the shot it wouldn't have mattered if Ginobli hadn't fouled him (he did make that free throw though but he missed big free throw in Heat series).

[Eric Dampier]

You obviously didn't see the 2005 Playoffs. If you can counter everything Ginobili meant to the Spurs' third title... go ahead and try. You won't get very far.

And as far as Duncan is concerned.... even if you exclude the extra year he was in the league before Dirk's arrival... Duncan has had more clutch GW shots in that span than Dirk himself.

what do you mean i didnt watch the 2005 playoffs? i was in them.

Duncan might have more GW shots because he took more of them, he was always the go to guy his whole life. plus they were all probly in the regular season anyway. playoffs are all that matters

[Phenomanul]

what do you mean i didnt watch the 2005 playoffs? i was in them.

Duncan might have more GW shots because he took more of them, he was always the go to guy his whole life. plus they were all probly in the regular season anyway. playoffs are all that matters

You still haven't demonstrated why Duncan is unclutch???

[Phenomanul]

Dirk really hasn't been clutch at all during his career until this past season. He always seemed to miss the shots at the buzzer to win the game. That changed this past season as he won several games during the regular season and one playoff game (vs. Memphis) with game winning shots. I'm not even counting the big play vs. the Spurs in game 7 cuz even though he did make the shot it wouldn't have mattered if Ginobli hadn't fouled him (he did make that free throw though but he missed big free throw in Heat series).


All I was saying was that Ginobili is as clutch as they come despite the fact that he's not known as a 'shooter'....

[Eric Dampier]

You still haven't demonstrated why Duncan is unclutch???

im the 2nd best center in the NBA. i do what i want

[dirk4mvp]

Go to hell.

[Sportcamper]

Isaiah Thomas... Charles Barkley...And John Stockton are all better than Kobe Bryant.....Riiiiiight..... :smokin

[1Parker1]

^:lol

[whottt]

Tim Duncan is lesser talent? You need your fucking head examined.


No...the guy who needs his fucking head examined is the basketball fan who thinks NBA teams are comprised of 2 players and nothing else.

[whottt]

Yes you could, but you can't make a case that one is a choker and that the other one isn't. That was my only point.


And it's a point that seems to indicate you haven't got a clue what the word choke means...

What Malone did was a choke....David Robinson never threw an NBA championship away in a pressure filled moment...and neither did John Stockton.

Karl Malone did.


Losing is not choking...never winning is not choking...beating yourself due to errors from the pressure of winning, against an opponent you should beat or is already effectively beaten, either situationally or over a longer period, is choking.


And like I said...Duncan is 0-2 against Malone...so your stupid logic means that Duncan is also a choker. He never beat Malone either.

[Obstructed_View]

beating yourself due to errors from the pressure of winning, against an opponent you should beat or is already effectively beaten, either situationally or over a longer period, is choking.
Since you basically described Robinson's career before Duncan arrived with the above, I'll just quote you back to yourself.


And it's a point that seems to indicate you haven't got a clue what the word choke means...

[Obstructed_View]

No...the guy who needs his fucking head examined is the basketball fan who thinks NBA teams are comprised of 2 players and nothing else.

Okay, break it down and compare the teams.

[jacobdrj]

Isaiah Thomas... Charles Barkley...And John Stockton are all better than Kobe Bryant.....Riiiiiight..... :smokin

Umm, I don't know about Thomas (never saw him play, nor do I care to), but Yes on Barkley, and probably NO on Stockton.

[Obstructed_View]

I saw Isiah score 25 points against the Lakers in the third quarter in the NBA finals on an ankle I probably couldn't have walked on. That was one of the greatest individual performances I've ever seen. Isiah may be a shitty GM, but he was a bad motherfucker and deserves to be way up on that list.

[mabber]

I saw Isiah score 25 points against the Lakers in the third quarter in the NBA finals on an ankle I probably couldn't have walked on. That was one of the greatest indivicual performances I've ever seen. Isiah may be a shitty GM, but he was a bad motherfucker and deserves to be way up on that list.

Yeah, I saw that game. What a great performance. He had game.