Qana bombs an Israeli 'war crime'

[ShackO]

A human rights group says the Israeli air strike on Qana that killed 54 civilians is a "war crime". (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5232434.stm) .

Human Rights Watch accused the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) of treating southern Lebanon as a "free-fire zone".

It said the failure to distinguish between civilians and combatants could be judged as a war crime, and called for an UN probe into the conflict.[/COLOR]
Israel has insisted that Hezbollah sheltered in Qana and used it as a base to fire rockets across the border.
But Human Rights Watch called on a UN commission to investigate whether serious violations of international law had taken place during the conflict.
"The Israeli military seems to consider anyone left in the area a combatant who is fair game for attack,"[/COLOR] said Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch.
"Such consistent failure to distinguish combatants and civilians is a war crime."
Shocking attack

The Israeli air strike on the southern Lebanese village of Qana in the early hours of Sunday killed at least 54 Lebanese civilians, mostly children.



The carnage has prompted international outrage and urgent diplomacy to bring about a ceasefire between Israel and militant group Hezbollah.
The IDF said in a statement that Qana had been used since the beginning of events as a "hideout" and a place from where approximately 150 rockets had been fired into Israel.


The IDF also said that residents in the village and surrounding areas were warned in advance to stay out of areas where rockets were being launched at Israel.


"Even after this tragic event, the circumstances of which are still being investigated, we appeal to the residents of southern Lebanon to distance themselves from terrorists, to distance themselves from launch areas, for their own safety," said Maj Gen Gadi Eizenkot.
Targets

[COLOR=Red]The UN's emergency relief co-ordinator was highly critical of Israel's strike in Qana, calling it "indiscriminate and excessive".


But Jan Egeland refused to absolve Hezbollah of a share of the blame, reminding the group that using civilian areas as a base for military operations had long been "illegal and immoral".


"It has been so for 100 years, simply for the very reason that you make the women and children as much a target as you are yourself," Mr Egeland said.
However, Human Rights Watch said responsibility for Qana rested "squarely with the Israeli military".


"Just because the Israeli military warned the civilians of Qana to leave does not give it carte blanche to blindly attack," said Mr Roth. "It still must make every possible effort to target only genuine combatants.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Seriously, I don't what the fuck to think. I wouldn't put it past Israel to do that, and yet I know Hezbollah uses civilians as shields. Personally I don't think there's any good going on over there.

[ShackO]

There are no good guys here……. Both have innocent blood on their hands…

[Yonivore]

There are no good guys here……. Both have innocent blood on their hands…
As in all wars. Are you suggesting the hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians killed in Germany and Japan made Allied forces the equivalent of the Axis powers?

[ShackO]

Lets stick to one war @ a time......... You wish to discuss some other war please make a thread and I will be happy to discuss it........

[Yonivore]

Lets stick to one war @ a time......... You wish to discuss some other war please make a thread and I will be happy to discuss it........
Why? You're making the proposition that because both sides are causing the deaths of innocents, both sides are in the wrong.

Name a war where the "right" side of the conflict did not cause the death of an innocent.

In World War II, we killed exponentially more innocent civilians (not to mention our own POW's and infantry in friendly fire) than the Axis powers did. Yet, I'd still like to think we were on the right side of that conflict.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Innocent people die all the time in war.

I don't see the UN crying about the innocent Israelis that are getting killed while all this is going on. Just a bit hypocritical, don't you think?

[ShackO]

Why? You're making the proposition that because both sides are causing the deaths of innocents, both sides are in the wrong.You are correct. THere are no good guys vs bad guys in this situation and in most situations like this... It is merely guys vs guys...Two wrongs don't make a right

Name a war where the "right" side of the conflict did not cause the death of an innocent.That would assume that I believe there is right side.. In most cases I don’t..

In World War II, we killed exponentially more innocent civilians (not to mention our own POW's and infantry in friendly fire) than the Axis powers did. Yet, I'd still like to think we were on the right side of that conflict.I would also have to believe we were on the right side of that conflict… That does not mean I condone the indiscriminate fire bombing of innocent ppl…

If you really want to get an idea of what I believe please read up on the “theory of just war”….. There are several great books dealing with the topic……..

[Yonivore]

If you really want to get an idea of what I believe please read up on the “theory of just war”….. There are several great books dealing with the topic……..
Defending your nation against annihilation is a just war cause.

And, it would be helpful if you'd take your responses out of my quotes. That is, if you want me to bother responding to some of your points.

But, just so we understand one another, are you suggesting that if this were a "just war" the Lebanese deaths would be justified? Because, if that's the case, then we need to be arguing over the legitimacy of the war and not the body count, right?

[Extra Stout]

Defending your nation against annihilation is a just war cause.

And, it would be helpful if you'd take your responses out of my quotes. That is, if you want me to bother responding to some of your points.

But, just so we understand one another, are you suggesting that if this were a "just war" the Lebanese deaths would be justified? Because, if that's the case, then we need to be arguing over the legitimacy of the war and not the body count, right?
My guess is that he finds the Arab resistance against Israel to be a just war.

[Yonivore]

My guess is that he finds the Arab resistance against Israel to be a just war.
Exactly what is Hezbollah "resisting?" Didn't Israel completely withdraw from Southern Lebanon six years ago with the understanding that the UN and Lebanon would disarm Hezbollah and pacify the border region? Yeah, thought so.

So why, exactly, is it called a resistance?

[Extra Stout]

Exactly what is Hezbollah "resisting?" Didn't Israel completely withdraw from Southern Lebanon six years ago with the understanding that the UN and Lebanon would disarm Hezbollah and pacify the border region? Yeah, thought so.

So why, exactly, is it called a resistance?
An Arab might argue the following:

In 1948, Western powers, including the British occupiers of Palestine, unilaterally decided to partition the region of Palestine into Jewish and Arab states. This was done to appease a group of Zionist settlers (and their worldwide Jewish and Christian allies), which had relocated into Palestine in the previous half-century, and organized themselves into a para-government.

In partitioning Palestine thusly, against the wishes of all Arab nations, native Arabs were displaced from their homes and livelihoods. These people had not tried to exterminate the Jewish people. They had not provoked a worldwide war. Yet they were forced to suffer the consequences of European guilt and were forcibly moved as a state for the Jews was created in their midst.

As such, the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the Palestinian nation and community of Arab nations has been lasting, grave, and certain. For 58 years, the Palestinian people have remained displaced and disallowed from returning to the homes, and have suffered ongoing attacks by the Jewish entity.

All other means of putting an end to this conflict have been shown to be impractical or ineffective. The Zionist entity will not willingly dismantle itself, and in fact the Western powers, most notably the United States, give it copious financial and military aid to maintain hegemony in the region.

There are serious prospects of success in this endeavor because Allah decrees it be so.

The use of arms in this conflict do not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. Compare the plight of Israelis today to those of the Palestinians.

Now, I disagree essentially with every bit of that, but for debating purposes...

[ShackO]

Defending your nation against annihilation is a just war cause.

But, just so we understand one another, are you suggesting that if this were a "just war" the Lebanese deaths would be justified? Because, if that's the case, then we need to be arguing over the legitimacy of the war and not the body count, right?


I think I made it quite clear… There are no good guys in this war…….. Simple as that…

“Defending your nation against annihilation is a just war cause.”

Certainly but here we have two ppl making the same claim….. Both see the same land as “their nation”…”their homeland”…etc… so then who is right???

You of course would choose Israel and personally I could careless who controlled the land as long as peace resulted.

But I believe that the Arabs have a stronger claim to the land and one day will prevail and have “their holy land” back… Not because they are more just or because their claim is stronger but because they will never surrender Jerusalem…….

By what right does Israel control the land??? The British?? The UN?? God??
IMO it is none of the above, it is solely on their might… Just like everyone else..

[Yonivore]

I think I made it quite clear… There are no good guys in this war…….. Simple as that…
Why? What has Israel done to deserve equal footing as Hezbollah?


“Defending your nation against annihilation is a just war cause.”

Certainly but here we have two ppl making the same claim….. Both see the same land as “their nation”…”their homeland”…etc… so then who is right???
Actually, you need to read your history and understand Hezbollah. They make no claim on the land currently called Israel. They are terrorists, pure and simple, dedicated to extermination of the Jews.


You of course would choose Israel and personally I could careless who controlled the land as long as peace resulted.
Well, seeing as how Israel is the rightful occupant of the land and they were attacked, peace will probably be achieved when Hezbollah cries uncle or breathes its last.


But I believe that the Arabs have a stronger claim to the land
why do you believe that?


and one day will prevail and have “their holy land” back… Not because they are more just or because their claim is stronger but because they will never surrender Jerusalem…….

By what right does Israel control the land??? The British?? The UN?? God??
IMO it is none of the above, it is solely on their might… Just like everyone else..
Because they are the recognized sovereign nation in that piece of geography. Gaza, West Bank, and Golan Heights aside for a moment -- can you name the property owners, in order of succession, going back a few thousand years? If so, you'll learn none of them were the nomadic "Palestinians" that have been kicked out of every neighboring Arab country since Israel made nation-state status.

In fact, Israel has been the kindest host to these band of troublemakers. Jordan damn near exterminated them while running them out of the Trans Jordan. Lebanon and Syria did the same. And Egypt didn't want them either. So, they settled in places like the Gaza and the West Bank and started making claims on the land that they had no right to make.

Along comes people like you who believe "Palestinians" actuallly existed before an Egyptian named Yassir Arafat came along and coopted the name for his motley crew.

To be factual, Israel resisted for a long time and, in the process, treated the "Palestinians" almost as bad as had the Jordanians, Syrians, Lebanese, and Egyptians -- but, in the end, international pressure forced them into trying to exchange land for peace with them as well.

So, after offering 95% of what the "Palestinians" demanded (Jerusalem off the table), Arafat, instead of taking it and continuing to negotiate the remaining 5% of the deal, declared another intifada and started killing Jews again. Israel continues to try and give the "Palestinians" a homeland (carved out of Israel) but, as has been said before, the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity, and after completely withdrawing from Gaza last month, the "Palestinians" promptly kidnapped an Israeli soldier and killed an Israeli teenager. Go figure.

Hezbollah (probaby Iran and Syria, actually) decided it would be a good time to test the Norther front and invaded Israel from the North, killing 8 and kidnapping two.

And, there you are.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

“Defending your nation against annihilation is a just war cause.”

Certainly but here we have two ppl making the same claim….. Both see the same land as “their nation”…”their homeland”…etc… so then who is right???

Hezbollah doesn't give a fuck about the land, they want to finish what Hitler started.

[ShackO]

Sorry if you don't want to read it the way I have replied but it is easier for me this way....... Oh and thnx for laying out your opinion.... Although I may not agree with a lot of it I appreciate and respect your heart felt opinion:smokin


Why? What has Israel done to deserve equal footing as Hezbollah?

Well I am sorry to tell you that many things Israel does to the Palestinians is immoral IMO and the same can be said of pissbalah… pissbalah has done some good works in southern Lebanon and the same can be said of Israel but on the other side of the coin when pissbalah goes off killing and kidnapping those good works seem to fade into insignificance……..

That same shadow hangs over the moral high ground you seem to feel Israel has… By killing innocent ppl, bombing women and children they loose that high ground as well…… That opinion is held by many ppl throughout the world and the numbers continue to grow with each and every innocent life taken……..

Actually, you need to read your history and understand Hezbollah. They make no claim on the land currently called Israel. They are terrorists, pure and simple, dedicated to extermination of the Jews.

Well maybe in your eyes and that of America but much of the rest of the world does not consider them as terrorist…….. Their goals may not be the same as those of the Palestinians none the less much of the world (including the EU) seems to think they have some justification…

Well, seeing as how Israel is the rightful occupant of the land and they were attacked, peace will probably be achieved when Hezbollah cries uncle or breathes its last.

Again, regardless of how you or anyone else sees it, they believe it is their holy land and they will never surrender it……. Perhaps there is hope if both sides could be convinced that making Jerusalem an international city (like it was originally set to be)


why do you believe that?

Simply time… They have had possession of the land and “their holy places” for well over a thousand years, up till recently when it was given to Israel…….

I guess you wouldn’t believe a people living in the place for that long would constitute a valid claim to the land… But I would…



Because they are the recognized sovereign nation in that piece of geography. Gaza, West Bank, and Golan Heights aside for a moment -- can you name the property owners, in order of succession, going back a few thousand years? If so, you'll learn none of them were the nomadic "Palestinians" that have been kicked out of every neighboring Arab country since Israel made nation-state status.

I am well aware of that. In fact I recently read the history of the general area and central Asia from the latter crusades on words…. Not a pretty picture….

In fact, Israel has been the kindest host to these band of troublemakers. Jordan damn near exterminated them while running them out of the Trans Jordan. Lebanon and Syria did the same. And Egypt didn't want them either. So, they settled in places like the Gaza and the West Bank and started making claims on the land that they had no right to make.

This is true and the heart of the one problem…. No one wants them.. Not all Arabs are the same…. Much like the early “settlers” of America ppl just assumed all Indians are just Indians but that is not the case….. If the Choctaw loose there land that does not mean they will be accepted by the Navajo.. These poor MF’s simply got no place to go.. They have little more than a barren reservation solely dependent on Israel.. (just like the USA has done to the American Indians) No understructure, work etc……. Not sure what anyone can expect from a ppl dealing with that…. Can you??

Along comes people like you who believe "Palestinians" actuallly existed before an Egyptian named Yassir Arafat came along and coopted the name for his motley crew.

Don’t be presumptuous…… I am not your fucking bleeding heart liberal so you can save that shit …..


To be factual, Israel resisted for a long time and, in the process, treated the "Palestinians" almost as bad as had the Jordanians, Syrians, Lebanese, and Egyptians -- but, in the end, international pressure forced them into trying to exchange land for peace with them as well.

So, after offering 95% of what the "Palestinians" demanded (Jerusalem off the table), Arafat, instead of taking it and continuing to negotiate the remaining 5% of the deal, declared another intifada and started killing Jews again.

I believe he also said something to the affect he could not surrender Jerusalem and there would be a death sentence to anyone that did……. ((Actually it was surrendered once by an Egyptian for 10 years but he justified it by having had the wall torn down and stating he could take it back whenever he wanted to……..))


Israel continues to try and give the "Palestinians" a homeland (carved out of Israel) but, as has been said before, the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity, and after completely withdrawing from Gaza last month, the "Palestinians" promptly kidnapped an Israeli soldier and killed an Israeli teenager. Go figure.

LOL… DO you actually know what it is they are offering??? Reservations, Bantu nations along the lines of American Indians and South Africa apartheid.. The land is simply unlivable without access to water etc…….. Isolated parcels that are simply not viable…. Sorry IMO it is understandable they not only want but need more…

Hezbollah (probaby Iran and Syria, actually) decided it would be a good time to test the Norther front and invaded Israel from the North, killing 8 and kidnapping two.

Agreed, IMO Iran is the driving force….. The fucking wackO . Ahmadinejad is a cheap provocateur and unworthy of the title president……. He runs a totalitarian society tired of financing Arab wars and pandering for some international status….. Sometimes ppl just want to be left alone and watch satellite TV………..


:violin