Another Gay/Right WIng Moral Evangelical goe down

[BIG IRISH]

Rev. Ted Haggard President of the National Association of Evangelicals...


Oh, the phoney Christians and the phoney patriots who are selling this country out! They make a big deal about Kerry's botched joke and think nothing of Bush's botched war.

When Bush made jokes about not being able to find the WMD's they thought it was funny. These phoney Christian Republicans wouldn't know (or like) the real Jesus.

Yes, the Rightwingers want to pass laws to make everybody "moral" and they want to bomb the rest of world into "democarcy" while we're losing our own democracy. But when you remind them of our own deficiencies they say you "hate America".

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the Reverend was gay and paid a male escort, given the GOP's history with such things,i.e. (Gannon/Guckert - Foley
Baker)http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/02/haggard.allegations/index.html

[jochhejaam]

Flush them all out. The phoniness out there is sickening.


Although I didn't realize that the outing of "moral evangelicals" was at an epidemic proportion. And it's quite a stretch how you managed to tie it into the "Bush War" (which many Dems supported).

[Ocotillo]

Another Gay/Right WIng Moral Evangelical goe down

Was that him or the male escort?

[ClintSquint]

He's resigned and from what I've heard he's admitted to some guilt.

[Extra Stout]

It becomes clearer every day that the "Religious Right" has become a racket to manipulate sincere Christians into advancing the interests of the wealthy and powerful.

It is no longer about doing good; it is about doing well.

[AFBlue]

The republican party sure does have handle on the pulse of the general public with their appeal towards conservative christian values.

And they've done a good job of painting the democratic party as a bunch of soft-on-security (foreign and domestic), immoral candidates. The democrats would do well to promote candidates who are devout and are not ashamed to admit it.

I'm convinced it will be harder for the Democrats to earn the "high morality" title than it will be for the republicans to lose it, no matter how many scandals there are.

[Samurai Jane]

He's resigned and from what I've heard he's admitted to some guilt.

Where did you hear this? I read that he had resigned, but I've seen nothing about admission of guilt.

[ploto]

Church Leader Says Haggard Admits To Some Indiscretions

Interim Senior Pastor Says Haggard Admits Indiscretions

Colorado Springs

A sudden about-face in the scandal facing New Life Church's pastor.

After Pastor Ted Haggard went public Wednesday night denying allegations of a homosexual affair, senior church officials told KKTV 11News Thursday evening, Pastor Ted Haggard has admitted to some of the claims made by a former male escort. The church's Acting Senior Pastor, Ross Parsley, tells KKTV 11 News that Pastor Haggard has admitted to some of the indiscretions claimed by Mike Jones, but not all of them.

Thursday morning, Jones went on a Denver radio talk show and said Pastor Haggard paid him for sex over the past 3 years. Jones also claims Haggard used drugs with him.

Right now, the situation is under investigation by an independent panel of leaders from four outside churches. The leaders are from Colorado Springs, Larkspur, Westminster and Louisiana. The panel's role is to decide if Haggard will be exonerated, released from his duties or restored to his pastorship.

Earlier Thursday, Haggard resigned as President of the National Association of Evangelicals, and placed himself on administrative leave as head of New Life Church. New Life Church has an estimated 14,000 members, while the NAE claims roughly 30 million members.

http://www.kktv.com/news/headlines/4557411.html

[ploto]

(from a Gay and Lesbian News Site)

Parsley sent out an email to parishioners of Haggard's New Life Church in Colorado Springs Thursday, acknowledging some of the allegations made by Mike Jones, who claims he had a three-year "sexual business" relationship with the prominent pastor.

"It is important for you to know that he confessed to the overseers that some of the accusations against him are true," Parsley said in the e-mail.

"[Haggard] has willingly and humbly submitted to the authority of the board of overseers, and will remain on administrative leave during the course of the investigation."


http://www.bgay.com/bnews/news61103_gay_hustler_accusations_are_true.htm

[Samurai Jane]

Ah, ok, thanks. I guess that was posted after I went to bed last night.

[boutons_]

"overseers"

great choice of word for these New Life jokers!

They obviously failed to "see", "do what they do", what a fake this pharisaical asshole was. Some "overseeing".

Not some small-time, back-country Elmer Gantry, but a gay elected as president of national associaton of evangelicals. How 'bout THEM "values"! :lol

[SA210]

So much for being a far right "Christian".

[RandomGuy]

It becomes clearer every day that the "Religious Right" has become a racket to manipulate sincere Christians into advancing the interests of the wealthy and powerful.

It is no longer about doing good; it is about doing well.

:clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap :clap

[Crookshanks]

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." This man is fallible and a sinner, just like everyone else in the world. If any of these allegations are true, then he will be disciplined by the church board and will most likely lose his pastorship.

But this doesn't mean that what he preached or what he believed were wrong - it just means that he himself fell prey to the sins of the flesh and he will have to ask for forgiveness and try to rebuild his life.

[AFBlue]

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." This man is fallible and a sinner, just like everyone else in the world. If any of these allegations are true, then he will be disciplined by the church board and will most likely lose his pastorship.

But this doesn't mean that what he preached or what he believed were wrong - it just means that he himself fell prey to the sins of the flesh and he will have to ask for forgiveness and try to rebuild his life.

That's all well and good, but that doesn't absolve him from the responsibility he has to lead a life according to God's word. And like it or not, he is held to a higher standard by the public as a figurehead for the Church.

He is an example of why I do not base my faith in God on those who serve him.

[Crookshanks]

That's all well and good, but that doesn't absolve him from the responsibility he has to lead a life according to God's word. And like it or not, he is held to a higher standard by the public as a figurehead for the Church.

He is an example of why I do not base my faith in God on those who serve him.

You are exactly right - those who base their faith on a man (or woman) will be sorely disappointed. This just proves out Romans 3:23 - "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God."

[ChumpDumper]

He admitted to buying crystal meth from the gay escort, but claims he didn't use it. Also denies having sex with the escort -- just "massages" :spin

[clambake]

And he made weekly visits to Bush in the white house. hmmmmmmmm

Something about the white house that gets everybody sexed up!

[ChumpDumper]

:lol The escort didn't know who he was until he saw him on the History Channel.

[clambake]

The history channel. Oh the irony.

[Yonivore]

There is undeniably something sordid about these allegations, if true. But whenever a story like arises, I scratch our head and wonder what it has to do with the merits of the issue of same sex marriage?

I guess it's supposed to be "hypocritical" for someone to have a secret homosexual life while publicly opposing homosexuality--but why? If you are homosexual and you believe homosexuality is wrong, remaining in the closet would be entirely consistent with your beliefs.

If Jones's claims about Haggard are true, Haggard plainly was not living up to his own moral principles. And of course those principles may be wrong. But Haggard's falling short of them has no bearing on their merits as moral principles.

[clambake]

Yoni, your head is like two marbles in a tin can.

[SA210]

There is undeniably something sordid about these allegations, if true. But whenever a story like arises, I scratch our head and wonder what it has to do with the merits of the issue of same sex marriage?

I guess it's supposed to be "hypocritical" for someone to have a secret homosexual life while publicly opposing homosexuality--but why? If you are homosexual and you believe homosexuality is wrong, remaining in the closet would be entirely consistent with your beliefs.

If Jones's claims about Haggard are true, Haggard plainly was not living up to his own moral principles. And of course those principles may be wrong. But Haggard's falling short of them has no bearing on their merits as moral principles.
:lmao Oh stop it, that was almost as funny as Xray :lmao

[Extra Stout]

If you are homosexual and you believe homosexuality is wrong, remaining in the closet would be entirely consistent with your beliefs.

:wtf

I always thought that if one believed homosexuality was wrong, then refraining from homosexual activity would be consistent with one's beliefs.

The way you phrased that, it sounds as if a man were tobelieve in the sanctity of marriage, then if he cheated on his wife, he would be consistent with his beliefs as long as he covered it up.

Anyway, it is not that this scandal undermines the argument against gay marriage. It is that it is eroding the moral authority of an existing political institution arguing against it. If the leader of an anti-abortion organization were discovered to be performing abortions left and right, it would devastate the credibility of that organization.

[Yonivore]

:wtf

I always thought that if one believed homosexuality was wrong, then refraining from homosexual activity would be consistent with one's beliefs.

The way you phrased that, it sounds as if a man were tobelieve in the sanctity of marriage, then if he cheated on his wife, he would be consistent with his beliefs as long as he covered it up.

Anyway, it is not that this scandal undermines the argument against gay marriage. It is that it is eroding the moral authority of an existing political institution arguing against it. If the leader of an anti-abortion organization were discovered to be performing abortions left and right, it would devastate the credibility of that organization.
I think you misread it ES. If you believe homosexuality is wrong, remaining in the closet would be perfectly consistent with that belief...regardless of the moral implications of your belief. Otherwise, you wouldn't be in the closet.

[ChumpDumper]

I think you misread it ES. If you believe homosexuality is wrong, remaining in the closet would be perfectly consistent with that belief...regardless of the moral implications of your belief. Otherwise, you wouldn't be in the closet.It could just mean your job depended on it. If you REALLY thought homosexuality was wrong, you wouldn't hire a "masseur" from rentboy.com.

[clambake]

The meth made him do it.

[clambake]

I don't understand why he threw it away, because wouldn't that make it Holy meth?

[ChumpDumper]

It was pretty fucked up watching him admit to buying the meth -- he was sitting in a car with his wife and kids there.

[clambake]

I saw it. How degrading.

Wouldn't own up to the "hotel that recommended the guy" question.

[clambake]

As if there was a hotel that recommended the guy.

Digging the hole deeper.

[Extra Stout]

I think you misread it ES. If you believe homosexuality is wrong, remaining in the closet would be perfectly consistent with that belief...regardless of the moral implications of your belief. Otherwise, you wouldn't be in the closet.
Either you and I have a disconnect on the meaning of "in the closet," or you and I have a disconnect about the correlation between beliefs and morality.

[ChumpDumper]

I would actually expect a concierge to know something like that.

[Yonivore]

Either you and I have a disconnect on the meaning of "in the closet," or you and I have a disconnect about the correlation between beliefs and morality.
One would hide a behavior they believed was wrong, wouldn't they? Otherwise, he'd be proudly gay, right?

[clambake]

Would the concierge know who he is?
What name would someone with religous fame check in under?
Is the concierge guilty of sin for providing such lurid pleasures to a man of the cloth?

[ChumpDumper]

Would the concierge know who he is?Probably not.
What name would someone with religous fame check in under?His own. As far as I heard, this happened during business trips.
Is the concierge guilty of sin for providing such lurid pleasures to a man of the cloth?Depends on your religion, I guess.

[clambake]

I thought Crooks would answer these questions.

She's so forgiving.

[ChumpDumper]

:lol

[Ocotillo]

One would hide a behavior they believed was wrong, wouldn't they? Otherwise, he'd be proudly gay, right?

Yeah, you could say that or people stay in the closet because of the ramifications of others knowing one's "gayness". Just because a gay person doesn't publically proclaim their homosexuality doesn't mean they believe they are wrong.

[xrayzebra]

Would the concierge know who he is?
What name would someone with religous fame check in under?
Is the concierge guilty of sin for providing such lurid pleasures to a man of the cloth?


Guess he could have done like the Kennedy's
just have sex under the table in a public restaurant
or be on the way to the house to vote.

Who cares. He wasn't my spiritual counselor or
my leader. And I have already voted.....

Guess how! And I had a split ticket........

[Extra Stout]

One would hide a behavior they believed was wrong, wouldn't they? Otherwise, he'd be proudly gay, right?
:depressed

You're really making me sad here.

The point of morality is that your actual behavior reflects your beliefs as much as possible. The point of morality is not that you can create an external appearance that reflects your beliefs.

[Ocotillo]

Guess how! And I had a split ticket........

Me too. Did you actually pull the lever for a Dem or do you mean you also voted for the Libertarian in some cases?

[xrayzebra]

Me too. Did you actually pull the lever for a Dem or do you mean you also voted for the Libertarian in some cases?

It's a secret. And if I told you it would ruin me.

I want to be able to return to the forum as an old
grumpy ..........you know......
:lol

[clambake]

I voted for sex under the table at resturants!

[xrayzebra]

I voted for sex under the table at resturants!

Well okay, did you leave a tip? :drunk

[Ocotillo]

Regarding the issue of whether someone who is gay and believes it is wrong, is that why they stay in the closet.

One could write a thesis on the subject of the pain and anguish that people go through when they are gay and are coming to grips with it and it conflicts with their religious beliefs. I am not Psych major or even play one of the internet but I have had two friends who really went through some turmoil when they were coming to grips with their homosexuality.

To repress that is hard on them and the accept it is hard on them. Add to the mix what society thinks of them and it is really difficult.

Sadly, both of my friends, once they decided to come out of the closet, they severed their friendships with most of the people they had been socially active with and adopted a whole new lifestyle and circle of friends. I miss their friendship and wish them well.

[xrayzebra]

Regarding the issue of whether someone who is gay and believes it is wrong, is that why they stay in the closet.

One could write a thesis on the subject of the pain and anguish that people go through when they are gay and are coming to grips with it and it conflicts with their religious beliefs. I am not Psych major or even play one of the internet but I have had two friends who really went through some turmoil when they were coming to grips with their homosexuality.

To repress that is hard on them and the accept it is hard on them. Add to the mix what society thinks of them and it is really difficult.

Sadly, both of my friends, once they decided to come out of the closet, they severed their friendships with most of the people they had been socially active with and adopted a whole new lifestyle and circle of friends. I miss their friendship and wish them well.

Yeah I can remember when I came to "grips"
with my heterosexual tendencies and yes it was hard.. And I knew
it wouldn't be socially acceptable except with
my buddies. But I eventually adopted to a new
lifestyle with the ladies in my life. :smokin

[clambake]

I like gay people. Their so damned creative and caring.

Religion would rather brand them, or stay in the closet and pretend.

[ChumpDumper]

yes it was hardI don't think I'll ever stop vomitting.

[Yonivore]

I don't think I'll ever stop vomitting.
Good.

[Phenomanul]

:depressed

You're really making me sad here.

The point of morality is that your actual behavior reflects your beliefs as much as possible. The point of morality is not that you can create an external appearance that reflects your beliefs.


True, except that sometimes we lie, hold grudges, get impatient, display greediness, lust, anger etc... What I believe Yoni is trying to say is that we don't always measure up to what we know is right - precisely because as humans we are imperfect... Saying that we do measure up would be an outright lie. We're all sinners.

What a pity and what a disgrace.

[Extra Stout]

True, except that sometimes we lie, hold grudges, get impatient, display greediness, lust, anger etc... What I believe Yoni is trying to say is that we don't always measure up to what we know is right - precisely because as humans we are imperfect... Saying that we do measure up would be an outright lie. We're all sinners.

What a pity and what a disgrace.
Yes, and when we fall short, the thing to do is to confess the sin, not hide it.

Hiding it makes it worse.

[Zunni]

He admitted to buying crystal meth from the gay escort, but claims he didn't use it. Also denies having sex with the escort -- just "massages" :spin
So, he didn't inhale...or swallow? :lol :lol :lol :lol

Every time I hear that "first stone" quote I laugh, thinking of Life of Brian, when someone bellowed that out at a stoning, causing all of a two second pause, followed by a fusillade of huge rocks at the offender. :lol :lol :lol :lol

[Zunni]

You are exactly right - those who base their faith on a man (or woman) will be sorely disappointed. This just proves out Romans 3:23 - "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God."

So, why the fanaticism about GOP politics by the Christian right? Politicians are most certainly "men", and horribly flawed ones at that.

[Yonivore]

Yes, and when we fall short, the thing to do is to confess the sin, not hide it.

Hiding it makes it worse.
Shame is a strong motivator to remain silent...even for the strongest among us.

Think of King David and Bathsheeba. It was a few years before he 'fessed up, admitted his sin, and repented. And, still, he paid a heavy price.

[Zunni]

Gee, I don't remember any of this newfound Yoni-compassion for sinners when Clinton was taking his fall...

[Yonivore]

Gee, I don't remember any of this newfound Yoni-compassion for sinners when Clinton was taking his fall...
Well, if this guy had any control over my life...you know, like a President, I'd probably feel differently. But, as it stands he's a Pastor of somebody else's church.

And, if he were my pastor, I'd want him to do exactly what he did...resign. Which is exactly what I wanted Clinton to do.

Your point?

[PixelPusher]

:depressed

You're really making me sad here.

The point of morality is that your actual behavior reflects your beliefs as much as possible. The point of morality is not that you can create an external appearance that reflects your beliefs.

Welcome to the NeoCon universe. Lovely, isn't it?

[ploto]

Do people not get the extreme irony here- we are not simply talking about a minister who might be performing gay acts; we are talking about the head of a nationwide Evangelical organization who has publicly been one of the biggest opponents of homosexuality and gay marriage while he himself is engaging in the behavior. It is hypocrisy at its most extreme and a lesson for all who hold themselves up just a little too high.

[Yonivore]

Do people not get the extreme irony here- we are not simply talking about a minister who might be performing gay acts; we are talking about the head of a nationwide Evangelical organization who has publicly been one of the biggest opponents of homosexuality and gay marriage while he himself is engaging in the behavior. It is hypocrisy at its most extreme and a lesson for all who hold themselves up just a little too high.
No more ironic than the chief executive of a nation attempting to deny a lowly citizen their due process rights by lying under oath.

Look, they're all just single human beings. This guy's been busted and the right thing is happening. Clinton should have been as ashamed.

[ChumpDumper]

:lmao Yoni can't go a day without the Clinton hijack attempt.

[ploto]

Yoni- You must be friends with another poster who does not answer questions or deal with subjects but tries instead to make the other person defensive by turning it back on them and changing the subject. Last I checked, I was talking about Haggard.

[Yonivore]

Yoni- You must be friends with another poster who does not answer questions or deal with subjects but tries instead to make the other person defensive by turning it back on them and changing the subject. Last I checked, I was talking about Haggard.
And Haggard is exactly what to me?

[Yonivore]

:lmao Yoni can't go a day without the Clinton hijack attempt.
Wow! You really do pay too much attention to my posting habits.

[ChumpDumper]

How could one not notice? You do it every other thread.

[ploto]

And Haggard is exactly what to me?
The subject of THIS thread. :lol

[Yonivore]

The subject of THIS thread. :lol
And I was merely trying to bring the topic into the political realm. You're welcome.

[PixelPusher]

And I was merely trying to change the subject by injecting Clinton into the topic. You're welcome.

fixed to reflect what actually happened.

EDIT: oops! almost forgot...[/SARCASM]

[ChumpDumper]

It was already political given his public stance on gay marriage. I know you are too stupid to realize that. You're welcome.

[Yonivore]

fixed to reflect what actually happened.
Yeah, an actual politician. Of course, we could change it to Kleagle Byrd or Manslaughterer Kennedy or Crooked Jefferson or some other Democratic disgrace, if you like.

[ChumpDumper]

Shotgun hijack attempt. Why not make it about Kaye West or Brangela or Dennis Miller, starfucker?

[Yonivore]

It was already political given his public stance on gay marriage. I know you are too stupid to realize that. You're welcome.
I see. So, everyone who opposes gay marriage and then goes off and cavorts with a gay hooker is political fodder?

[Yonivore]

Shotgun hijack attempt. Why not make it about Kaye West or Brangela or Dennis Miller, starfucker?
You really should seek help.

[ChumpDumper]

I see. So, everyone who opposes gay marriage and then goes off and cavorts with a gay hooker is political fodder?If he is a public figure leads an organization that is politically active, absolutely

[Yonivore]

If he is a public figure leads an organization that is politically active, absolutely
Okie dokie, then have at him. I hope it helps your blood pressure.

[PixelPusher]

Yonivore is:

A) Intellectually dishonest

B) Ignorant of the significance the Evangelical movement holds for Republicans during elections (ask your buddy Karl Rove to explain it to you)

C) Both

[ChumpDumper]

I wasn't waiting for your approval.

[Yonivore]

Yonivore is:

A) Intellectually dishonest.

B) Ignorant of the significance the Evangelical movement holds for Republicans during elections (ask your buddy Karl Rove to explain it to you)

C) Both
Oh goody, a poll! Let me know how it turns out.

A) I'd never heard of the guy before today.

B) Evangelicals have never influence me during an election.

C) Neither. I must have missed Rove's memo.

[Yonivore]

I wasn't waiting for your approval.
Whatever you say.

[PixelPusher]

A) I'd never heard of the guy before today.
Yet now that you know about this influential, politically connected guy you continue to pretend he has no political significance.


B) Evangelicals have never influence me during an election.
Well I've never mistaken you for Christian, but I was referring to the election as a whole, not you single vote (unless your precinct has Diebolds)


C) Neither. I must have missed Rove's memo.


"Three days later, a Tuesday, Karl Rove summoned [Don] Willett [a former Bush aide from Texas who initially shepharded the program] to his office to announce that the entire faith-based initiative would be rolled out the following Monday. Willett asked just how — without a director, staff, office, or plan — the president could do that. Rove looked at him, took a deep breath, and said, “I don’t know. Just get me a f—ing faith-based thing. Got it?” Willett was shown the door." - exerpt from "Tempting Faith" by David Kuo

[Zunni]

Pixel, I read that excerpt. I knew that the GOP was only playing the Christians, but now David Kuo has outed them in a national publication.

[BIG IRISH]

Do people not get the extreme irony here- we are not simply talking about a minister who might be performing gay acts; we are talking about the head of a nationwide Evangelical organization who has publicly been one of the biggest opponents of homosexuality and gay marriage while he himself is engaging in the behavior. It is hypocrisy at its most extreme and a lesson for all who hold themselves up just a little too high.

I wonder about the similarities between gay marriage and the laws that
forbide mariage between people of a different race.

Even though the supreme court struck down the law in 1967.

Alabama defiantly, symbolically waited until the year 2000 to erase it from the books.

I remember a lot of these, so-called men of the cloth, that were dead set
against inter-racial marriage, but were spotted coming out of a particular
house late at night. and joking about changing your luck.

My point in starting this thread is as ploto said
It is hypocrisy at its most extreme and a lesson for all who hold themselves up just a little too high

I think this hypocrisy, that I have seen from Men of the Cloth and
other "Bible-thumpers"is what turned me off from "Organized religions"

Psst for you Texans Inter-racial means Mexicans & Whites, even though this state say's mexicans are white, it is not like that across America.
case in point:

Before anyone plays any cards here, My Wife is Mexican, I am white. My oldest 1/2 breed son is married to a Russian whose skin is whiter than a
snowflake in Moscow, his son born in Louisana
is listed as Other on his birth certificate.

[jochhejaam]

Pixel, I read that excerpt. I knew that the GOP was only playing the Christians, but now David Kuo has outed them in a national publication.
I'm terribly disappointed to find out that politicians are "playing" a voting bloc. :depressed

The Dems are equally adept at the "playing" game, but they don't do nearly as well with Christians (they would if they could). Why is that? Generally speaking, it's because of an overall trust and faith in man's abilities without hope in, or help from an external source (God).

[Yonivore]

Yet now that you know about this influential, politically connected guy you continue to pretend he has no political significance.
That's right...about as much as Mark Foley (who, by the way, may still win his district)


Well I've never mistaken you for Christian,...
Well, not to borrow an old cliche but, in this case, it really does take one to know one.


...but I was referring to the election as a whole, not you single vote (unless your precinct has Diebolds)
Voted on a Diebold earlier this week.

[Yonivore]

Pixel, I read that excerpt. I knew that the GOP was only playing the Christians, but now David Kuo has outed them in a national publication.
No, the Christian Right sees David Kuo for what he is; a disgruntled former administration employee who became upset that the President reduced faith-based initiative emphasis after September 11. Most of us understood that the emphasis need to be shifted to terrorism, he did not.

He is to the faith-based initiative crowd as a Greenpeacer would be to the environmental crowd. Very, very, very narrowly focused on one issue. I wish him well.

[boutons_]

The 2003 Repug campaign was saturated with "values" and "faith-based" crap pandering to dumbfucks in red-states, and that was a Repug campaign strategy 2 years after 9/11, so your point about Kuo being a minority whose program took second place in the Rovian univerise is total bullshit.

[xrayzebra]

I don't think I'll ever stop vomitting.

Oh Chump, you do leave youself so wide open (no pun intended) sometimes,
but I will pass this time. :lol

[Guru of Nothing]

Trying to argue with current Christian-Political thought is akin to playing whack-a-mole.