Forget Free Throws, What about Rebounding?

[Amuseddaysleeper]

We've always been a shitty free throw shooting team and that seems like it's never gonna change

What I'm more concerned about is our rebounding

We're probably gonna be ranked 30th in the league in terms of second chance points at the rate we're gettin killed on the boards.

We pulled even with Dallas on the boards but got murdered to the Cavs as they crashed the boards time and time again

Either Duncan needs to average 18 boards a game or someone else is gonna have to step up to carry the load

I say get oberto the hell out of there and onto the IR list and bring in Butler.

He may not be our primary rebounding answer, but we have to do SOMETHING out there. :pctoss

[Chris Childs]

the spurs are too old to rebound

[Nero]

Agree completely. Even in the Dallas game we only tied them with rebounding because they had 12 more misses than us (including missed 2nd ft rbs). We were still dominated on the boards.
No team has every won a ring with subpar rebounding. Losing the 2nd chance point battle forces you to play extremely efficient on offense (which we can't because of ft shooting), saps a teams energy (as you have to chase them around on D for more possesions and little guys have to unnaturally throw themsleves into the paint, like Gino does in big games), and is more demoralizing than getting dunked on.

[wildbill2u]

Bowen is sub-par in rebounds for a SF. Can't move him out. Tim's gonna do what he can at his age and with 2" elevation on his good nights.

So it will have to come from center--Oberto or Elson. Butler won't get enough playing time to matter.

[Nero]

Butler won't get enough playing time to matter.

Why is that? I hope you're not right, cause that's the only hope I had left.

[Bruno]

Just check numbers :

Spurs were an average rebounding team last year, not a bad one. Spurs weren't outrebounded on the whole season.

Spurs won't really be a worse rebounding team this year than last year. They have lost Rasho + Nazr who average conbined 9.1 rbds in 36.3 min that is to say 10 rbds/40 min. Last season, Oberto : 10 rbds/40 min, Elson : 8.6 rbds/40 min, Butler : 9.9 rbds/40min.

If Spurs aren't a top rebounding team, blame it mainly on the fact that Spurs lack of a strong rebounder at PG/SG/SF. Our best perimeter rebounders average 5 rbds/40 min and it's very weak.

For reference Spurs last year production by position compared to opponents production :
PG : - 0.4 rbds
SG : + 0.6 rbds
SF : - 1.3 rbds
PF : + 1.9 rbds
C : + 0.4 rbds

[Nero]

Nice stats Bruno. I'd bet that we were worse last year than the year before (ring year), and we'll be even worse this year, due to increased age of TD, Bowen, Horry, Manu, and even Barry and Finley. Oberto's 10/40min is nice, but I don't even think he suited to play 1 min/game and not sure about Butler. Elson seems to be the one that should get teh bulk of the minutes, but unfortunately he's the poorest rebounder of the three.

[Bruno]

Thanks.

Defensive rebounds % :
2006 : 74.2
2005 : 73.6
2004 : 74.6

Offensive rebounds % :
2006 : 26.0
2005 : 29.1
2004 : 29.5

Biggest difference between 05 and 06 is the lack of offensive rebounds.
You can mainly explain it by :
- Duncan and Manu offensive rebounds have droped. I guess it's mainly because of their injuries.
- Nazr and Rasho offensive rebounds have droped.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Nice analysis Bruno.

I'd like to try Butler for Oberto for a while and see what happens, but we must also remember that it's only 2 games into the season, and we sucked on a back-to-back - 15/19 losses last year were on back-to-backs!!! Now that's also a powerful stat!

Edit - Ludden's article says 10/19 losses from back-to-backs, where the telecast said 15. I'm inclined to think Ludden's research is better than Hubie's. Still, btbs are a problem for us. I wonder what the league-wide btb stats are like?

[Bruno]

I'd like to try Butler for Oberto for a while

Me too but I don't think that the bigman rotation is set for this year.

Bottomline is that Pop need to find 3 or 4 productive bigs (among the 6 bigs Spurs have) for the playoffs to play with Duncan. Pop has played with a 3 bigs rotation in previous playoff but he will maybe play with a 4 bigs rotation this year given the low quality of Spurs' bigs.

After 2 games we can say :
Elson and Horry will likely be in the rotation, Oberto not.

That makes 3 productive bigs (Duncan, Elson, Horry), Pop still needs to find one.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Bonner did okay in Toronto - hell, he shot 44% from 3 without Duncan!

Butler, well he held his own in 13mins a night last year for NYK, and I hope to see him in the rotation soon.

[bigfan]

This loss gives Pop the excuse to send Oberto down and bring up Butler w/o pissing off Manu. Our rebounds sucked last night and everyone could see Oberto was outgunned.

[Bruno]

The situation is quite different than last year. Last year, it was clear that Oberto/Marks were Spurs 5th and 6th big. This year, There is no abvious ranking of Spurs bigs behind Duncan and that's why I think that Spurs big rotation isn't set.
Bonner and Butler will have a chance to prove what they are worth at a moment of the season because they deserve to have a chance unlike marks and rookie Oberto last year (as RuffnReadyOzStyle said).

[SenorSpur]

Rebounding was a HUGE issue last season (as discussed at various times in this forum); it was a HUGE deal in the Dallas series (as they repeatedly crushed the Spurs on the glass in each game); and it looks like it will again be an issue this season. As evidenced by the way the Cavs smoked them on the glass.

I am one that does not think Oberto can thrive in the starting rotation. He's active and he hustles, but isn't quick enough to routinely beat his defender to the glass.

Once Elson takes his spot, I trust we'll see an improvement in the rebounding numbers.

However, it will be interesting to monitor the rebounding numbers for improvement.

[boutons_]

Rebounding on the season is bullshit.

How about Spurs rebounding vs the top 4 teams in each conference, the teams we meet in the playoffs?

That the Spurs can hold their own on the boards against the bottom 10 teams in each conference is stat padding.

[Kori Ellis]

Look at the playoff rebounding. Didn't the Spurs get outrebounded in all but one playoff game last year?

[Bruno]

Look at the playoff rebounding. Didn't the Spurs get outrebounded in all but one playoff game last year?

Spurs have been outrebounded by Bonzi Wells against Sacramento, it's not like they will play against that knid of players everygames/ playoff series.

Spurs have played with Finley at C against Dallas : it's logical that you are outrebounded in that case.

[polandprzem]

Spurs have been outrebounded by Bonzi Wells against Sacramento, it's not like they will play against that knid of players everygames/ playoff series.

Spurs have played with Finley at C against Dallas : it's logical that you are outrebounded in that case.

That's why we do have Bonner out there.
Kori you should know that - you are a big fan of this guy :tu

[spurffic]

Pop has once again trusted his old ways by releasing veterans as if this were 90's style basketball. Oberto, Bonner, Barry, and I hate to say it maybe even Horry have gotsta go. Butler, White, and Vaughn need to get some playing time. Pop wants to wait???? For what hell to freeze over and The Spurs to lose 20 more games. Oberto was a big stiff last night like I knew he would be. The guys doesn't move, blink, stare, breathe, more less rebound. Why is he on the court, on the Spurs, in the NBA????????????? Horry also got outrebounded but the poor guy has a lot of heart left and no gas left in his tank. I can't single out poor Rob. I have just seen reality. Jacky B. needs playing time NOW not tommorrow NOW. OBERTO (Qasimoto) has gotsta' go yesterday. Don't ever come back to the NBA, pick up a guitar or do something else. James White needs to be out there instead of Washed up Barry. We are goingf to get stomped day in and day out with this ridiculous rotation we have now. WE ARE TOOOOOOOO OLD. We need young guys that can rebound for Timmy.

[wildbill2u]

Funny that nobody picked on Bruce. I guess he is untouchable from criticism. But look at the stats above--for the season our SF is a MINUS 1.6 compared to the opposition.

Even as small as our PGs are, there isn't that big a differential.

Bruce is a hard worker and always tries to improve his game. Somebody (Pop) ought to be on his ass about rebounds. He'll go to work on it.

Finally, we may be in for a long season if the current centers continue to get outrebounded night after night, especially against quality teams. Nazr and Rasho had their faults, but they were OK rebounders. Nazr was especially good with ORs.

[Kori Ellis]

That's why we do have Bonner out there.
Kori you should know that - you are a big fan of this guy :tu

Bonner isn't a good rebounder. (And I'm not a Bonner fan :lol).

[Big Shot Rob]

We need James (Superman) White.

That guy can jump over buildings!

Look--

Up in the sky!

Its a bird!

Its a plane!

ITS SUPER SPUR TO THE REBOUNDING RESCUE!!

[polandprzem]

Bonner isn't a good rebounder. (And I'm not a Bonner fan :lol).

Just a little irony (sarcasm) Kori :drunk

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Put in James White and our FT% is cured.

[boutons_]

"Somebody (Pop) ought to be on his ass about rebounds."

I remember early/before the 05/06 season Bruce saying he had been told to increase his rebounding. Didn't help much.

He doesn't score, he's infamously bad at FTs (but he doesn't take many), so defense and RB are really the only two big contributions he can make.

[Bruno]

Funny that nobody picked on Bruce. I guess he is untouchable from criticism. But look at the stats above--for the season our SF is a MINUS 1.6 compared to the opposition.



If Spurs aren't a top rebounding team, blame it mainly on the fact that Spurs lack of a strong rebounder at PG/SG/SF. Our best perimeter rebounders average 5 rbds/40 min and it's very weak

Bruce is 6'7"/200 lbs, it's quite logical that he is a bad rebounder at the SF spot.

Bottomline is that you can't be a dominant team in every aspect of the game. With Bruce, Spurs is a dominant defensive team but is too an average rebounding team.

[boutons_]

"quite logical that he is a bad rebounder at the SF spot."

bullshit. 4-inches shorter Tony Parker from his PG spot is better career rebounder than Bruce.

[SenorSpur]

Bruce is 6'7"/200 lbs, it's quite logical that he is a bad rebounder at the SF spot.

Bottomline is that you can't be a dominant team in every aspect of the game. With Bruce, Spurs is a dominant defensive team but is too an average rebounding team.

Hey, I'm not going to leave Bowen out of this discussion. I don't care if he's defended out on the perimeter on defense or spotting up in the corners on the offensive end. He can and should do more to crash the boards.

Rebounding is about heart, desire and effort. Skills that Bowen has an abundance of.

[wildbill2u]

Bruce is 6'7"/200 lbs, it's quite logical that he is a bad rebounder at the SF spot.

Bottomline is that you can't be a dominant team in every aspect of the game. With Bruce, Spurs is a dominant defensive team but is too an average rebounding team.
I know Bruce isn't a terribly good physical specimen built for rebounding and sometimes he's out on the perimeter--but with as many minutes as he gets and by blocking out his man, he ought to get more rebounds than he does in my opinion.

It's not as though he doesn't play tough and physical when he thinks he can get away with it. :devil He just doesn't have the mindset to block out his man and then go after the ball.

[Bruno]

Rebounding is about heart, desire and effort. Skills that Bowen has an abundance of.

Sure rebounding has nothing to do with being strong to get the position, being long and jumping high...


He just doesn't have the mindset to block out his man and then go after the ball.

Bowen has some difficulties to block his man. Is it because he hasn't the mindset to do it or is it because he isn't strong enough to do it ?
I think the main reason is that he isn't strong enough but it's just my POV.


I don't say that Bruce being a bad rebounder is a good thing but just that he isn't able to be a good rebounder because he hasn't the physical tools to be a good rebounder.

[Kori Ellis]

Bowen can get more rebounds than he gets. But he's not going to become that much better for two reasons. One is that he isn't strong at all, as Bruno explained. The other is that he'll never get many O boards at all because his mindset is to immediately look to get on D as soon as the ball goes up.

[wildbill2u]

Sure rebounding has nothing to do with being strong to get the position, being long and jumping high...



Bowen has some difficulties to block his man. Is it because he hasn't the mindset to do it or is it because he isn't strong enough to do it ?
I think the main reason is that he isn't strong enough but it's just my POV.


I don't say that Bruce being a bad rebounder is a good thing but just that he isn't able to be a good rebounder because he hasn't the physical tools to be a good rebounder.
Blocking out an opponent isn't always about sheer strength. It's knowing how to get an angle immediately to position yourself between the offensive player and the probable arc of the rebound. That's why Russell says he could rebound against bigger stronger players like Chamberlain. All good rebounders have that instinct. But you also have to be willing to put yourself in harm's way.

Then if the offensive player wants the rebound he has to go through you--that's not fun when the guy is bigger and stronger, but you put yourself in the position of picking up a foul on the other guy which is sometimes even more valuable than the rebound.

[timvp]

In the last 14 games the Spurs have played going back to last year's playoffs, they've outrebounded the other team in 1 of those games. One. Uno.

That's disgusting. And unless the Spurs figure out how to solve that, they aren't a championship caliber team. The easiest way to solve the problem would be for the bigmen to start rebounding at a higher clip.

So far this season, here are the rebounding stats per 40 minutes:
Robert Horry - 14.0
Tim Duncan - 12.1
Fabricio Oberto - 9.1
Francisco Elson - 7.8

Horry is doing a great job on the boards. Duncan and Oberto need to add about a rebound each to their numbers. Elson, for as well as he's played in all other aspects, hasn't rebounded very well to begin the season. If he can get that number up to around 10, then I believe the Spurs could become a decent enough rebounding team.

However, until rebounding is corrected, it's going to be a concern for this team.

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

Trade for Reggie, he hasn;t even got off the bench in the first 2 games for the Nuggets.

I hate what they have done, they spent the MLE on a guy just to use for trade bait :drunk just like last season with Earl Watson.

I hope im wrong and that he plays next game coz his rebounding is insane. It maye be that we dont need him as much as last year coz Kmart (10rpg) and Nene (5rpg in limited minutes) are healthier and picking up more boards.

Get on the phone and get a third team involved with the Nuggets and Spurs that lands you Reggie and us another guard that can shoot :smokin

[Nero]

I would love Reggie. What a shame it is that he's on the bench. How's his attitude? Shooters, we got several, but I don't you want any except for Manu which we won't give up: Bowen (probably untradeable), Finley, Barry, Horry, Beno, Bonner. Anything there you like? Doubtful.

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

I would love Reggie. What a shame it is that he's on the bench. How's his attitude? Shooters, we got several, but I don't you want any except for Manu which we won't give up: Bowen (probably untradeable), Finley, Barry, Horry, Beno, Bonner. Anything there you like? Doubtful.


His attitude has been fine in Denver and there have been no issues (except for the nutgrab on Kaman :lol) but he will likely get upset if he doesn't get ANY playing time :pctoss

There would be noone of the Spurs that the Nuggets would want except for Manu and we all know that isnt happening. I think something could only happen with a third team involved.

[Nero]

Rebounding on the season is bullshit.

How about Spurs rebounding vs the top 4 teams in each conference, the teams we meet in the playoffs?

That the Spurs can hold their own on the boards against the bottom 10 teams in each conference is stat padding.

Great point. Against possible WC PO teams I think we can only beat PHO. We'd get crushed by Mavs, SAC, Lakers, Denver, Utah. Houston and Minny would probably beat us too, though I don't think as bad.

[ChumpDumper]

I don't know why I should forget about free throws. That should be much easier to fix than rebounding.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

I don't know why I should forget about free throws. That should be much easier to fix than rebounding.

it should be, but rebounding i think is something we can find a quicker change in than the gradual improvement that comes with free throw shooting.

If rebounding really is about heart, desire, and hustle, then the team needs to nut up and crash the boards.

It was sickening last night seeing the Cavs miss 2 straight shots only to get their board on the third straight try and nail a 3 ball from Marshall.

I would love for TD to average 13-15 rebounds a game and if we could get one of our centers pulling down at least 7-8 boards a game i think that'd be nice too.

I was surprised we were able to pull even with Dallas on the rebounding scale (although not playing small ball probably helped)

How many times last season did we lose a game on a put back or on a failure to box out?

It's disgusting

As frustrating as missing free throws are, it has almost gotten to the point where it feels like a lost cause in some of our players

But rebounding, no way, the team has to hustle a hell of a lot more.

I'd love to see where we rank in the league in terms of offensive rebounding