Elson HAS to start

[Amuseddaysleeper]

I know this topic has been discussed many times, and while Oberto is rounding out nicely, I think with Elson would serve much better as the starter getting the Bulk of the minutes, and Oberto could maybe be utilized better in the 2nd unit.

Elson seems to be a better rebounder as well as offensive player.

Anyways, I think Pop should start Elson for the game against SAC tommorow and move Oberto to the bench

[Dingle Barry]

I dont give a fuck who starts. It's about how Pop distributes their minutes and who he has on the floor at the end of the game. I have been pleased thus far.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

I dont give a fuck who starts. It's about how Pop distributes their minutes and who he has on the floor at the end of the game. I have been pleased thus far.

well then Elson shoudl be playing more minutes

I think the Bulls game he was given garbage minutes it felt like (although most of the 4th quarter felt like garbage minutes)

He should be the primary center

[bdictjames]

I like Oberto at the starting position. He plays perfectly alongside Duncan and knows the plays. Elson still has trouble with the system

[ChumpDumper]

I think the Bulls game he was given garbage minutes it felt like (although most of the 4th quarter felt like garbage minutes)Did you watch the game? Elson picked up three fouls in like five minutes in his first rotation. That's why Bonner got so many minutes.
Elson seems to be a better rebounderStatistically, Oberto is a slightly more productive rebounder.

At this point it ain't broke, so no need to fix it.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Did you watch the game? Elson picked up three fouls in like five minutes in his first rotation. That's why Bonner got so many minutes.Statistically, Oberto is a slightly more productive rebounder.

At this point it ain't broke, so no need to fix it.

is oberto really? damn, it always feels like elson is the better rebounder, and I know elson did have his share of foul trouble, but I still think he should be the first option when it comes to centers.

[Zunni]

I love Elson's energy and athleticism, but he doesn't know the system, or apparently basic things, like how to set a pick. Right now, the only thing holding back Elson is Elson. Sometimes, energy and athleticism play better off the bench anyway. You need that spark.

[leemajors]

i'd rather have elson keep coming off the bench - the speed he brings is a nice change of pace.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

I think so far both of them are doing a good job. And Oberto had a rocky start where we doubted him, but he's doing the little things right. Setting picks, help D, and positioning well for the rebound.

I think later on if Elson wants the starting spot he's gonna have to do more. But yeah, I agree with people saying he's a good spark. The fans arent used to a dunking center. lol

[pjjrfan]

Foul trouble has plagued both of them in the early part of the season, it looks like the refs are giving Oberto the rookie treatment, he can't touch anyone without a whistle going off, Elson on the other hand keeps finding himself in bad spots, something he will get better at once he has been in the system for a while. I like the way they are right now, until the team falls flat or runs into trouble with their center play, I don't see anything changing, but losses will make Pop make a move.

[Spursfury]

I think were good with are starting 5, Oberto fits in good he's aggressive on the boards and plays defense. Elson still look's alittle lost on the floor. Oberto knows the plays and makes some great passes. Elson athletic and strong but still doesn't know what Pop wants from him...

[The Truth #6]

Elson looks a little lost at times, but not horrible and still better than Nazr last year, so we're doing better.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

I have to admit, I much prefer these debates to Rasho vs. Nazr. It's nice to have an argument because we have two centers who play well enough to warrant starting. As for my two cents, I like the set up now. Oberto knows the system, and can pass well which helps the team get out and in a rhythm early. Elson is the closest thing the Spurs have to an energizer off the bench, and because he's able to run the floor he creates transition buckets for the second unit when the team doesn't have a sure go-to scorer on the floor.

[djohn14]

I think Elson is the better center and deserves to play more minutes.I don't care who starts,because Oberto is doing nice compared to what I thought he would do.I like Elson better, but like ChumpDumper said "it ain't broke, so no need to fix it.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

yeah after looking into the stats, i was pleasantly surprised to see we were faring much better in rebounding (that charlotte game musta helped our rebounding stats greatly!) than I thought.

I understand it's not broke so don't fix it, but I think we'd be even better with Elson starting at the 5 spot.

But either way, as people said before, it doesn't really matter who starts, so if that is the case, then at the end of the day the bulk of the minutes deserve to go to Elson (assuming he doesn't get in foul trouble)

[Solid D]

Oberto stinks as a starter. Every time Pop takes him out in the first quarter, the Spurs have the lead.

[K-State Spur]

i think elson gives us that energy in the second group that we have been lacking since manu moved into the starting line-up.

plus, i think oberto works a little better with timmy because of his ability to make the interior pass, which we'll see more of as the two become more comfortable with each other.

[THE SIXTH MAN]

i think elson gives us that energy in the second group that we have been lacking since manu moved into the starting line-up.

plus, i think oberto works a little better with timmy because of his ability to make the interior pass, which we'll see more of as the two become more comfortable with each other.
:tu

[Solid D]

Oberto stinks as a starter. Every time Pop takes him out in the first quarter, the Spurs have the lead.

Actually since after the Cleveland game...the Spurs have either had the lead or shared the lead when Oberto takes his first breather.

[ChumpDumper]

Did Solid D just pwn himself?

I guess it's the only way it could happen.

[Tom_Foolery]

Did you watch the game? Elson picked up three fouls in like five minutes in his first rotation. That's why Bonner got so many minutes.Statistically, Oberto is a slightly more productive rebounder.

At this point it ain't broke, so no need to fix it.


I think you have that backwards:

Oberto: 6.0 Rebounds
Elson: 6.1 Rebounds

[Tom_Foolery]

EFFICIENCY
Oberto: 10.67
Elson: 11.00

POINTS
Oberto: 5.8pts
Elson: 6.1pts

REBOUNDS
Oberto: 6.0
Elson: 6.1

ASSISTS
Oberto: 1.2
Elson: 1.1

STEALS
Oberto: 0.1
Elson: 0.2

BLOCKS
Oberto: 0.44
Elson: 1

http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Efficiency.jsp?league=00&season=22006&conf=WEST&position=1&splitType=9&splitScope=GAME&qualified=N&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=All%20Teams

With the exception of assists, Elson statistically is better in all the major categories. The interesting thing here is also that Elson is averaging 0.1 minutes more than Oberto.

Personally, I think Elson is clearly better and shows much more promise. Let's also take into account that Oberto has been with the Spurs going on his 2nd season while this is Elson's 1st year here with the Spurs. I find Elson to be much more athletic, run the floor much better, and because of this, I've seen him to be a better team defender, especially on the perimeter against guards cuz he can move lateral much faster/quicker and recover much better than Oberto. I disagree with the notion that "Elson looks lost and doesn't know the system" cuz if you've seen the earlier games this season, you've seen Elson get nice passes underneath for cuts to the basket for dunks. If he was that lost, he wouldn't be able to execute plays and finish off in transition.

With that said, I think I also agree that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". I view Elson's role much more important than Oberto's role, just like Manu's role a couple seasons ago when he was coming off the bench behind Barry/Turkoglu/Jackson. Elson is averaging more minutes, so that obviously shows Pop's confidence in Elson and I don't think Pop views Elson as a "bench player". I think he views Elson as a little bit of a "savior" at the center position, just as Manu was for shooting guard position in the past.

I do think Oberto is a better post defender and he seems to run the transition with manu pretty well, so the chemistry may be the reason why Elson's not starting.

Let's be happy that we got both Elson & Oberto and lucky that we have Elson coming off the bench cuz if we had Oberto coming off the bench, I don't think he'd be as "productive" cuz nobody on the bench really will have the same chemistry that he has with Manu.

Can we agree that the rotation works in Oberto's favor and should because at the end of the day, it's the rotation that is the most proficient that matters, not who starts.

The ONLY way I'd agree to have Oberto go to the bench is if Manu went with him or if Oberto really sucked like Rasho.

But for now, the rotation is smart...Oberto's chemistry with Manu will help the Spurs much more than coming off the bench. If Elson was starting, we would probably not get the same production from Oberto coming off the bench.

[ChumpDumper]

I think you have that backwards:

Oberto: 6.0 Rebounds
Elson: 6.1 ReboundsNope.
Statistically, Oberto is a slightly more productive rebounder.
Rebounds per 48 minutes:

Fabricio Oberto 15.2

Francisco Elson 15.0

RIF.

[Kori Ellis]

You can break down the stats all you want, but it's probably the intangibles that keep Fabricio ahead of Francisco.

Elson misses a lot of defensive rotations. Oberto doesn't. Elson doesn't set good picks. Oberto does. Until that changes, I would imagine Oberto will likely remain the starter.

[ChumpDumper]

True. Many of the statistics are close to a dead heat, so the difference is more who fits the system better at present. Oberto has that hands down. If Elson gets anywhere close to Oberto in the areas Kori mentioned, there won't be any argument against starting Francisco.

[timvp]

I like Elson a lot more than I thought I would but right now he's probably the most overhyped player on the Spurs. Yeah he's a whole hell of a lot better than he was on Denver but let's not put expectation through the roof just yet.

He has the worst +/- on the team. Per 48 minutes with Elson off the court, teams average 95.5 points against the Spurs. Per 48 minutes with Elson on the court, teams average 102 points. By just watching games, you can tell he still needs to get a lot better defensively.

That said, he's better than I thought he was and he's going to help the Spurs. But to act as if he's a David Robinson clone or whatever at this point is crazy.

[Tom_Foolery]

Bold Prediction: all of us(Kori included) will say Elson has improved dramatically enough to show Elson being a better Center.

Kori's argument(for now) has been that Oberto sets better picks and has better defensive rotation. While that maybe true, let's not forget this is Oberto's 2nd year on the Spurs while this being Elson's 1st. I should hope that Oberto is the clear choice for being the "starter", but I think Kori can also agree that Elson's potential and progress warrants such a debate. We may not agree on who starts or who is better(I still think Elson is better and should continue coming off the bench for the record), but if Oberto was that much better than Elson, then nobody would have a doubt who should start or who is better. It's Elson's potential and progress that has people thinking "possibilities".

Elson may not know the defensive scheme as good as 2nd year Oberto(nor should he), but I've liked his potential and progress thus far.

Pop seems to like Elson...Elson is averaging more minutes on the floor. One has to wonder if Pop is really trying to work Elson into the team extremely quick and maybe because Pop may like Elson a little better. There's got to be a reason why Elson's playing more minutes than Oberto when Oberto is the starter.

[timvp]

There's got to be a reason why Elson's playing more minutes than Oberto when Oberto is the starter.

Main reason why Oberto hasn't played more is foul trouble. He averages 8.5 fouls per 48 minutes :lol

That is something he needs to work on as the season goes along. He picks up too many unnecessary fouls. But I expect Oberto and Elson to play around the same minutes per game. Pop will ride the player who is playing better and that should even out to around the same unless on player's production really falls off.

[Tom_Foolery]

Main reason why Oberto hasn't played more is foul trouble. He averages 8.5 fouls per 48 minutes :lol

That is something he needs to work on as the season goes along. He picks up too many unnecessary fouls. But I expect Oberto and Elson to play around the same minutes per game. Pop will ride the player who is playing better and that should even out to around the same unless on player's production really falls off.


Well, if Oberto really is averaging more fouls per game/minutes than Elson, then maybe Oberto's defense isn't really that much better than Elson's? Kori, what do you make of the fact that Oberto averages more fouls than Elson? Is Oberto really that much better defensively and on rotation? One thing Oberto is not better than Elson at is recovery time and getting back to his man. Elson is incredibly quick at recovering to his guy.

[ChumpDumper]

Well, if Oberto really is averaging more fouls per game/minutes than Elson, then maybe Oberto's defense isn't really that much better than Elson's?Nah, it is better. Elson's 7.34 fouls per 48 isn't exactly stellar.
what do you make of the fact that Oberto averages more fouls than Elson?He's slow and short and tries to make defensive plays every time.
Is Oberto really that much better defensively and on rotation?In the Spurs' system? Absolutely. Just watch the games.
One thing Oberto is not better than Elson at is recovery time and getting back to his man. Elson is incredibly quick at recovering to his guy.That's great, since he is out of position so often.

I'm not bashing the guy. He's off to a good start, but he's got a long way to go.

[velik_m]

Unless Oberto plays himself out of starting position, Elson has no chance of starting.

[boutons_]

"he's got a long way to go."

Fab starts but only plays 19 MPG, one and a half quarters, less than FE, so in FO's case, starting is more of an honorary postion rather than winning a lot of playing time.

The other 4 starters all play 30+ MPG.

[ChumpDumper]

Sure Oberto needs to foul less.
so in FO's case, starting is more of an honorary postion rather than winning a lot of playing time. He knows the system better and plays accordingly. That's why Rasho got starts in the past. If Elson did something like Nazr did and outrebounded Oberto by a wide margin every time he was out there, there might be a switch -- but currently Oberto is just as productive on the boards and pretty aggressive offensively. The things he does do better -- setting picks and defensive positioning are the real priorities in the Spurs system and often overlooked by folks who just see running and dunking as the end-all be-all of basketbal existence. If Elson can get to Oberto's level in those things Spur centers are actually counted upon to do, we can revisit this debate.

[T Park]

Who cares who starts.

Oberto has done nothing to lose it, FE hasn't done enough to capture it.

Plus FE's ahleticism and energy off the bench is Malik Rose like.

Keep it the way things are.

[Tom_Foolery]

Sure Oberto needs to foul less.He knows the system better and plays accordingly. That's why Rasho got starts in the past. If Elson did something like Nazr did and outrebounded Oberto by a wide margin every time he was out there, there might be a switch -- but currently Oberto is just as productive on the boards and pretty aggressive offensively. The things he does do better -- setting picks and defensive positioning are the real priorities in the Spurs system and often overlooked by folks who just see running and dunking as the end-all be-all of basketbal existence. If Elson can get to Oberto's level in those things Spur centers are actually counted upon to do, we can revisit this debate.

Really? Because I remember Nazr starting ahead of Rasho during the playoffs a couple years ago because Nazr was actually better during that time. I also remember him losing his starting spot and not ever being able to regain it because of poor play, and not because "Rasho knows the system better". By your logic, did that mean Barry & Turkoglu "knew the system better and that's why Manu was coming off the bench"?

Also, why is Elson averaging more minutes on the floor? By your logic, Popovich is purposely putting someone on the floor who is "nowhere near Oberto's ability to even consider starting" as a debate. Is Popovich purposely sabataging the Spurs by purposely playing someone "inferior" longer than the starter?

It sounds as if you really don't even want to give Elson a chance.

I'm not saying Elson should be starting(nor have I ever), but you are starting to sound discriminatory.

I'm not calling you a racist or prejudice, but it does sound like you go out of your way to "knock" Elson without real reason. Being able to recover is why Tim Duncan is an excellent defender, it's not because "Tim is always out of position and sucks on defense". My point was that Elson is much more athletic than Oberto and that's why he's able to recover better.

Oberto's higher foul percentage could be attributed to also being out of position as well as not being able to recover back to his guy and defend.

We are starting to see people here who either see reason for debate because they are close or people who refuse to even consider a debate.

Again, not calling you racist or prejudice, but you are starting to look like you're purposely going out of your way to put Elson down.

[Dre_7]

Who cares who starts.

Oberto has done nothing to lose it, FE hasn't done enough to capture it.

Plus FE's ahleticism and energy off the bench is Malik Rose like.

Keep it the way things are.

Most def. I like Elson off the bench.

Would it be wrong if I said Barry also should start in Manu's place???

[Tom_Foolery]

Who cares who starts.

Oberto has done nothing to lose it, FE hasn't done enough to capture it.

Plus FE's ahleticism and energy off the bench is Malik Rose like.

Keep it the way things are.


Well, Elson is averaging more minutes. that could be a sign of things to come in the future.

I wouldn't say Oberto has played so stellar that there is no debate. I also agree that Oberto should start, but because he wouldn't be as productive coming off the bench as he would starting and also because Elson is very productive coming off the bench and what's working should be kept that way.

If Oberto really was so much better than Elson, then there really would be no debate. And if there really was no debate, then you wouldn't have a good amount of people on the board with an argument suggesting Elson could start.

[Kori Ellis]

I'm not calling you a racist or prejudice, but it does sound like you go out of your way to "knock" Elson without real reason. Being able to recover is why Tim Duncan is an excellent defender, it's not because "Tim is always out of position and sucks on defense". My point was that Elson is much more athletic than Oberto and that's why he's able to recover better.

Oberto's higher foul percentage could be attributed to also being out of position as well as not being able to recover back to his guy and defend.

We are starting to see people here who either see reason for debate because they are close or people who refuse to even consider a debate.

Again, not calling you racist or prejudice, but you are starting to look like you're purposely going out of your way to put Elson down.

Why do you keep bring up race? :wtf

ChumpDumper has given you a lot of real reasons for his arguments.

[Kori Ellis]

Also you keep saying Elson is averaging more minutes and you say it like there's a dramatic difference. Elson averages 19.6 minutes and Oberto 19.0. Virtually no difference.

They both have faults that will stop them from being 30mpg centers. Together, they put up decent numbers. If Elson rotates on defense and sets screens, he will likely get even more minutes than Oberto because he can play against the quick, athletic teams and he's not short. But right now, Elson gets pulled out of games and pulled aside by teammates quite regularly because of missing rotations.

[whottt]

I think another factor will be which one plays better alongside Duncan...that hurt Rasho more than anything IMO...he was less productive playing alongside Duncan.

To me it seems Oberto plays better with Duncan...whereas Elson seems to do better out there with Manu and Barry...

Makes sense if you think about it...we are still more of a halfcourt team with our starters while our bench seems to be more transition oriented and Elson is definitely more suited to a transition style of game.

[ChumpDumper]

Really? Because I remember Nazr starting ahead of Rasho during the playoffs a couple years ago because Nazr was actually better during that time.Why do you respond to my posts if you don't read them?
I also remember him losing his starting spot and not ever being able to regain it because of poor play, and not because "Rasho knows the system better".Rasho always knew the system better, don't you get it? That's the only reason he would start over the more statistically productive Nazr.
By your logic, did that mean Barry & Turkoglu "knew the system better and that's why Manu was coming off the bench"?No, all those guys knew the system and didn't play center.
Also, why is Elson averaging more minutes on the floor? By your logic, Popovich is purposely putting someone on the floor who is "nowhere near Oberto's ability to even consider starting" as a debate. Is Popovich purposely sabataging the Spurs by purposely playing someone "inferior" longer than the starter?Again, you have trouble reading. Oberto fouls alot.
It sounds as if you really don't even want to give Elson a chance.I have said precisely what Elson needs to do to start.
I'm not saying Elson should be starting(nor have I ever), but you are starting to sound discriminatory.I discriminate against players who don't know the system? Okay, I can live with that.
I'm not calling you a racist or prejudice, but it does sound like you go out of your way to "knock" Elson without real reason.You are calling me a racist. I am calling you a coward for being circumspect about it.
Being able to recover is why Tim Duncan is an excellent defender, it's not because "Tim is always out of position and sucks on defense".Tim is an excellent defender because he is usually in the right position and makes his rotations in time.
My point was that Elson is much more athletic than Oberto and that's why he's able to recover better.And my point is that's a good thing since he's out of position so often.
Oberto's higher foul percentage could be attributed to also being out of position as well as not being able to recover back to his guy and defend.You could attribute it to that if you don't watch the games. He's been with the Spurs for over a year, so he knows the system better than Elson. Period. I actually think Elson is ahead of where I thought he would be at this point, but he's not where Oberto is. What is so difficult for you to understand?
We are starting to see people here who either see reason for debate because they are close or people who refuse to even consider a debate.I considered the debate, looked up the stats, recalled some games and concluded Oberto does what the Spurs demand of their starting center better than Elson at this time. Elson certainly has more upside at the position given his natural abilities, but he has alot to learn before he can become a reliable starting center for the San Antonio Spurs.
Again, not calling you racist or prejudiceAgain, you are. You wouldn't have brought it up twice if you weren't.

[T Park]

bringing out the race card is pathetic.

[Tom_Foolery]

Why do you keep bring up race? :wtf

ChumpDumper has given you a lot of real reasons for his arguments.


It just appears that way. One example of him going out of his way to discredit Elson was Elson's athelticism and being able to recover much better. To Mr. Dumper, it was because "he was so lost on defense", which makes no sense anyways.

Secondly, bringing up Rasho. When Nazr was with the Spurs, Rasho was starting in the beginning and very soon lost minutes and eventually lost his starting spot during the playoffs. The next season, Nazr went on leave during preseason, but was never able to pick up the momentum he had gained during the playoffs with his drop-off in play. According to Mr. Dumper, Rasho started because "he knew the system better", which is totally untrue. It was more about Nazr's poor play than it was about his "knowledge of the system".

2 white guys starting = 2 black guys not "smart enough to know the system" so they should be coming off the bench?

coincidence in the argument? i think not.

I really hope I am wrong. It would really be a disgrace to have prejudice Spurs fans.

[Tom_Foolery]

Also you keep saying Elson is averaging more minutes and you say it like there's a dramatic difference. Elson averages 19.6 minutes and Oberto 19.0. Virtually no difference.

They both have faults that will stop them from being 30mpg centers. Together, they put up decent numbers. If Elson rotates on defense and sets screens, he will likely get even more minutes than Oberto because he can play against the quick, athletic teams and he's not short. But right now, Elson gets pulled out of games and pulled aside by teammates quite regularly because of missing rotations.

And they don't do that for Oberto? I'm not arguing that Oberto knows the system...HE BETTER know the system than a person in his 1st season w/ the Spurs.

But, for all complaints, flaws, and inefficiencies you've pointed out about Elson, it still doesn't explain why Elson is STILL averaging more minutes.

You may not like Elson and maybe you see only things you want to see, but Pop is putting Elson on the floor for more minutes. And that says something.

[ChumpDumper]

If you want to play up the race angle, you'll have to refute my other points first.

You have utterly failed to do so.

You are a disgrace.

[Tom_Foolery]

I think another factor will be which one plays better alongside Duncan...that hurt Rasho more than anything IMO...he was less productive playing alongside Duncan.

To me it seems Oberto plays better with Duncan...whereas Elson seems to do better out there with Manu and Barry...

Makes sense if you think about it...we are still more of a halfcourt team with our starters while our bench seems to be more transition oriented and Elson is definitely more suited to a transition style of game.


That's a good point, except I would say Manu plays better with Oberto than he does with Elson and that's half the reason why Oberto is starting(the other half being Oberto knows the defense better than Elson).

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Until Elson knows everything that Oberto does and does it better, Oberto will start. He hasn't shown that.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

man this debate was so much better than the overdone rasho vs nazr debate where team nazr would just slam rasho and vice versa

I'd love to see how we fare against Utah (not to go off topic)

They are on a roll and always play tough and rugged against us.

I agree that Elson does miss out on a lot of rotations

maybe I'm just too excited about having a center than can run up the court and dunks the ball more often than a weak layup.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

man this debate was so much better than the overdone rasho vs nazr debate where team nazr would just slam rasho and vice versa

I'd love to see how we fare against Utah (not to go off topic)

They are on a roll and always play tough and rugged against us.

I agree that Elson does miss out on a lot of rotations

maybe I'm just too excited about having a center than can run up the court and dunks the ball more often than a weak layup.
Duncan will dominate Boozer as Oberto will dominate Okur. Bowen's gonna have a hell of a job to do on Kirilenko.

[Tom_Foolery]

Why do you respond to my posts if you don't read them?

I've read your responses and they often contradict your own statements. You do a lot of backpeddling.


Rasho always knew the system better, don't you get it? That's the only reason he would start over the more statistically productive Nazr.

Wrong. Nazr started in the playoffs his 1st season w/ the Spurs, over the "more knowledgeable-of-the-system Rasho". He didn't start the following season because his play dropped off, not because he didn't "know the system better". Obviously he knew the system enough to start his 1st season. It was Nazr's lack of fire & production that kept him from regaining the starting spot the following season.


No, all those guys knew the system and didn't play center.Again, you have trouble reading. Oberto fouls alot.I have said precisely what Elson needs to do to start.I discriminate against players who don't know the system?

So, you're saying "black people don't know the system, so they should not start over the white person who knows the system better"? How do you explain Nazr starting in the playoffs a couple years ago? I'm sure it has something to do with "black people not know the system"again(hahaha!).


Okay, I can live with that.You are calling me a racist. I am calling you a coward for being circumspect about it.Tim is an excellent defender because he is usually in the right position and makes his rotations in time.

He also recovers well and gets blocks.


And my point is that's a good thing since he's out of position so often.You could attribute it to that if you don't watch the games. He's been with the Spurs for over a year, so he knows the system better than Elson.

Still averages more fouls and less minutes than 1st year Elson, but I guess that's because "Elson doesn't know the system"?(omg.)


I actually think Elson is ahead of where I thought he would be at this point, but he's not where Oberto is. What is so difficult for you to understand?

I totally understand and agree. You just come off very suspect and coincidentally, your comments kind of reflect closet prejudiceness.


I considered the debate, looked up the stats, recalled some games and concluded Oberto does what the Spurs demand of their starting center better than Elson at this time. Elson certainly has more upside at the position given his natural abilities, but he has alot to learn before he can become a reliable starting center for the San Antonio Spurs.Again, you are. You wouldn't have brought it up twice if you weren't.

Sorry, I can't help if you come across as slightly prejudice/racist in some of your comments. It's just weird that you would purposely discredit and ignore the fact that Nazr started during the playoffs a couple years ago, thus proving your "he knows the system better, so he should start" argument into the "dumper"(hahaha...I like that one!). It just looked odd to me that you would say "he knows the system better"(of Oberto) but still not acknowledge that Rasho lost his starting position even though he "new the system". It was as if you hate to admit a "black player can actually know the system better and start".

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

That's a good point, except I would say Manu plays better with Oberto than he does with Elson and that's half the reason why Oberto is starting(the other half being Oberto knows the defense better than Elson).
That's exactly why Oberto is starting. He knows the D and cooperates with the team better.

[Tom_Foolery]

Until Elson knows everything that Oberto does and does it better, Oberto will start. He hasn't shown that.


I don't think that's the answer.

Obviously turkoglu and barry didn't know "everything and did everything better than Manu" when Manu was coming off the bench. he was coming off the bench becauses Barry & Turkoglu sucked coming off the bench, not because Manu didn't "know everything and didn't do everything better".

Oberto should start only for the reason being he has better chemistry with Manu on the floor and that he knows the defense better and will be more productive for the Spurs than he would coming off the bench.


I guess there are always going to be haters that refuse to look in other directions on the board(this is not directed to you btw). just like when we signed Rasho, people refused to believe Pop could "do no wrong". Year after year, Rasho's numbers went south and people refused to believe "Pop can do no wrong". And STILL when Nazr came to the Spurs, there were haters saying "Rasho should start", and even when Nazr was playing incredible and starting for the Spurs, there were the same haters who still refused to believe that "Nazr was a better player". And you wonder why people here think there are a good amount of haters who may be racist? A racist Spurs fan in Texas??? Say it ain't so:/

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

So, you're saying "black people don't know the system, so they should not start over the white person who knows the system better"? How do you explain Nazr starting in the playoffs a couple years ago? I'm sure it has something to do with "black people not know the system"again(hahaha!).
Sorry, I can't help if you come across as slightly prejudice/racist in some of your comments. It's just weird that you would purposely discredit and ignore the fact that Nazr started during the playoffs a couple years ago, thus proving your "he knows the system better, so he should start" argument into the "dumper"(hahaha...I like that one!). It just looked odd to me that you would say "he knows the system better"(of Oberto) but still not acknowledge that Rasho lost his starting position even though he "new the system". It was as if you hate to admit a "black player can actually know the system better and start".
Nazr started because he was flat out better than Rasho. In the 2006 season Rasho started instead of Nazr because he missed mainly all of training camp, and Oberto and Elson have spent the same amount of time at training camp and are almost equal, but Oberto starts because he has more experience here.

And..
Rasho = Slovenian
Elson = Netherlandian (Or whatever they call it.)

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

I don't think that's the answer.

Obviously turkoglu and barry didn't know "everything and did everything better than Manu" when Manu was coming off the bench. he was coming off the bench becauses Barry & Turkoglu sucked coming off the bench, not because Manu didn't "know everything and didn't do everything better".

Oberto should start only for the reason being he has better chemistry with Manu on the floor and that he knows the defense better and will be more productive for the Spurs than he would coming off the bench.


I guess there are always going to be haters that refuse to look in other directions on the board(this is not directed to you btw). just like when we signed Rasho, people refused to believe Pop could "do no wrong". Year after year, Rasho's numbers went south and people refused to believe "Pop can do no wrong". And STILL when Nazr came to the Spurs, there were haters saying "Rasho should start", and even when Nazr was playing incredible and starting for the Spurs, there were the same haters who still refused to believe that "Nazr was a better player". And you wonder why people here think there are a good amount of haters who may be racist? A racist Spurs fan in Texas??? Say it ain't so:/
Manu played better off the bench at that point, and we don't know if Oberto plays good off the bench, so why bother with the success we're having now? If it ain't broke don't fix it.

[ChumpDumper]

I've read your responses and they often contradict your own statements. You do a lot of backpeddling.Absolutely not. You just don't read very well. That's your problem.
Wrong. Nazr started in the playoffs his 1st season w/ the Spurs, over the "more knowledgeable-of-the-system Rasho". He didn't start the following season because his play dropped off, not because he didn't "know the system better". Obviously he knew the system enough to start his 1st season. It was Nazr's lack of fire & production that kept him from regaining the starting spot the following season.Nah. Nazr never learned the system to the extent Rasho did. Ever. He produced more rebounds and was more aggressive offensively, and as I said it was enough to get him the starting job for awhile, but not enough to keep it since he never learned the sytem as we all hoped he would.
So, you're saying "black people don't know the system, so they should not start over the white person who knows the system better"? How do you explain Nazr starting in the playoffs a couple years ago? I'm sure it has something to do with "black people not know the system"again(hahaha!).You are the only person who has brought up race here. That's says more about you than anything else.
He also recovers well and gets blocks.And?
Still averages more fouls and less minutes than 1st year Elson, but I guess that's because "Elson doesn't know the system"?(omg.)I've explained why Oberto gets fouls. You are endearingly ignorant.
I totally understand and agree. You just come off very suspect and coincidentally, your comments kind of reflect closet prejudiceness.Nah, I come across as someone who knows the Spurs better than you.
Sorry, I can't help if you come across as slightly prejudice/racist in some of your comments. It's just weird that you would purposely discredit and ignore the fact that Nazr started during the playoffs a couple years ago, thus proving your "he knows the system better, so he should start" argument into the "dumper"(hahaha...I like that one!). It just looked odd to me that you would say "he knows the system better"(of Oberto) but still not acknowledge that Rasho lost his starting position even though he "new the system". It was as if you hate to admit a "black player can actually know the system better and start".Nazr never got the system down. If he ever did he'd be starting for the Spurs and Elson wouldn't be here at all.

[Tom_Foolery]

Manu played better off the bench at that point, and we don't know if Oberto plays good off the bench, so why bother with the success we're having now? If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Totally agree 100%.

[Tom_Foolery]

Rasho = Slovenian
Elson = Netherlandian (Or whatever they call it.)


Silly me...I thought Rasho was white and Elson was black.

[Tom_Foolery]

Absolutely not. You just don't read very well. That's your problem.

I've read well enough to point out your contradictions.


Nah. Nazr never learned the system to the extent Rasho did. Ever. He produced more rebounds and was more aggressive offensively, and as I said it was enough to get him the starting job for awhile, but not enough to keep it since he never learned the sytem as we all hoped he would.

Then I guess "knowing the system" is a bit overrated since Nazr was starting in the playoffs a couple years ago. Which brings me to my next point, if Nazr didn't know the system as well as Rasho but was more productive and they won the championship with Nazr starting, then why can't the same be applied to Elson since he's more productive than Oberto?


You are the only person who has brought up race here. That's says more about you than anything else.

Maybe it says that I am more socially aware and conscious of things like racists and bigotry than those who refuse to believe racism still exists in the world, let alone a San Antonio Spurs message board? I owe it all to your comments, so a big "Thank You" goes out to the Chump for reminding me that "racism can exist everywhere, even in the fanbase of a basketball team from Texas".


And?I've explained why Oberto gets fouls. You are endearingly ignorant.Nah, I come across as someone who knows the Spurs better than you.Nazr never got the system down. If he ever did he'd be starting for the Spurs and Elson wouldn't be here at all.

Well, he did start over Rasho, who knew the system better. Nazr wanted more money, that's why he's not on the Spurs. Rasho just flat out sucked.

I think it's hilarious that you refuse to accept the fact that Nazr starting over Rasho and knew the system just as good as Rasho even though Rasho had years of experience over 1st year Nazr. Maybe it's because "blacks aren't as smart as whites and that's why they don't know the system"?(too funny)

[ChumpDumper]

Then I guess "knowing the system" is a bit overrated since Nazr was starting in the playoffs a couple years ago. Which brings me to my next point, if Nazr didn't know the system as well as Rasho but was more productive and they won the championship with Nazr starting, then why can't the same be applied to Elson since he's more productive than Oberto?You might want to go back and read what you didn't read or didn't understand earlier in the thread:
He knows the system better and plays accordingly. That's why Rasho got starts in the past. If Elson did something like Nazr did and outrebounded Oberto by a wide margin every time he was out there, there might be a switch -- but currently Oberto is just as productive on the boards and pretty aggressive offensively. The things he does do better -- setting picks and defensive positioning are the real priorities in the Spurs system and often overlooked by folks who just see running and dunking as the end-all be-all of basketbal existence. If Elson can get to Oberto's level in those things Spur centers are actually counted upon to do, we can revisit this debate.Here's a link so you don't get lost going back a page:

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1291680&postcount=33


Maybe it says that I am more socially aware and conscious of things like racists and bigotry than those who refuse to believe racism still exists in the world, let alone a San Antonio Spurs message board?Do you want a link to the Political Forum too?
Nazr wanted more money, that's why he's not on the Spurs.More than what? The Spurs didn't even make him an offer and Nazr signed for conceiveably less money than he could've made as a Spur.

Now be a good boy and actually read posts before you accuse people of racism for no reason.

[Kori Ellis]

And they don't do that for Oberto? I'm not arguing that Oberto knows the system...HE BETTER know the system than a person in his 1st season w/ the Spurs.

But, for all complaints, flaws, and inefficiencies you've pointed out about Elson, it still doesn't explain why Elson is STILL averaging more minutes.

You may not like Elson and maybe you see only things you want to see, but Pop is putting Elson on the floor for more minutes. And that says something.

Elson and Oberto average about the SAME minutes (19.6 and 19.0) that's how it will probably always be whoever starts. Because both of them have deficiencies in their game. Neither one of them is good enough to be a 30 mpg center.

[Kori Ellis]

Sorry, I can't help if you come across as slightly prejudice/racist in some of your comments. It's just weird that you would purposely discredit and ignore the fact that Nazr started during the playoffs a couple years ago, thus proving your "he knows the system better, so he should start" argument into the "dumper"(hahaha...I like that one!). It just looked odd to me that you would say "he knows the system better"(of Oberto) but still not acknowledge that Rasho lost his starting position even though he "new the system". It was as if you hate to admit a "black player can actually know the system better and start".

No one has mentioned race except for you in this thread. And I've had enough of you throwing around racist/prejudice accusations. Everyone else is talking about basketball abilities, you are the only one hung up on race.

[spurs_in_7]

yes, he has to start....... to eat more bench

seems hes getting worser and worser each game he plays

[spurtime]

Oberto's kicking ass. No reason to rock the boat at this point.

[xamila rey]

comig back to the topic of Oberto vs. Elson
i think Fabio had a great game today,
while Francisco missed too many rotations (as usual)

[Extra Stout]

This thread is nearing classic status.

CD: Oberto knows the Spurs' system better, and since Elson is not playing leaps and bounds better than him, it makes sense that Oberto keeps starting.

TF: YOU'RE RACIST!!

It has been a while since the forum has featured this kind of self-inflicted ass-hattery.

[spurtime]

The racial stuff is moronic. The Spurs are nothing if not a merit based organization and that is usually reflected in the fans' attitudes as well.

[smeagol]

Elson = Netherlandian (Or whatever they call it.)

Dutch

[whottt]

Dutch


He can't be Dutch because he's black...Racist!

Lesson #1:

Ginobili can't be white because he speaks Spanish.

Lesson #2:

Elson can't be Dutch because he's black. However since he speaks Dutch he could be considered half white.


Let's keep things straight here smeag....

[whottt]

Come to think of it...Oberto can't be white either since he speaks Spanish...while Elson speaks both English and Dutch so he's got to be at least 2/3rds white...

Which means that Pop is guilty of reverse discrimination by starting non-white Oberto over 2/3 white Elson.


Hmmm...there just might be some racism at play here...I first noticed it when Pop benched Rasho in favor of Nazr.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Oberto played well tonight

Let the man continue starting!

;)

[whottt]

Racist

[T Park]

:lmao @ Tom Foolery.

Way to look like a moron chief.

Good job.

[Nero]

Starting, schmarting. They're each getting 20min/game. That's the key stat. Pop is giving them equal chance to shine and compete against each other, and they get to stay fresh this way. We don't need either of them getting a 35min workload at the expense of the other rotting on the bench, forgetting how to play. Our Franberto combo is gold at the moment.

[Dingle Barry]

tom foolery: leave

[Tom_Foolery]

You might want to go back and read what you didn't read or didn't understand earlier in the thread:Here's a link so you don't get lost going back a page:

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1291680&postcount=33

Do you want a link to the Political Forum too?More than what? The Spurs didn't even make him an offer and Nazr signed for conceiveably less money than he could've made as a Spur.

Now be a good boy and actually read posts before you accuse people of racism for no reason.

Well, that's the impression I get. As far as Nazr, well he was in the dog house and it was common knowledge that he was going to command much more than the Spurs were willing to offer. If Nazr got the same contract that either Elson or Butler got, we'd be seeing Nazr starting this season for the Spurs.

[Tom_Foolery]

Elson and Oberto average about the SAME minutes (19.6 and 19.0) that's how it will probably always be whoever starts. Because both of them have deficiencies in their game. Neither one of them is good enough to be a 30 mpg center.

I completely agree!

[Tom_Foolery]

This thread is nearing classic status.

CD: Oberto knows the Spurs' system better, and since Elson is not playing leaps and bounds better than him, it makes sense that Oberto keeps starting.

TF: YOU'RE RACIST!!

It has been a while since the forum has featured this kind of self-inflicted ass-hattery.


I really don't know how to respond to this kind of comment except you've completely missed the boat. Must be "drinking" again, huh?(ha!)

[Tom_Foolery]

The racial stuff is moronic. The Spurs are nothing if not a merit based organization and that is usually reflected in the fans' attitudes as well.


So, you think it's impossible to think there are racist Spurs fans in Texas?(hahaha!)

Um...okay.

[Tom_Foolery]

Come to think of it...Oberto can't be white either since he speaks Spanish...while Elson speaks both English and Dutch so he's got to be at least 2/3rds white...

Which means that Pop is guilty of reverse discrimination by starting non-white Oberto over 2/3 white Elson.


Hmmm...there just might be some racism at play here...I first noticed it when Pop benched Rasho in favor of Nazr.



LOL! This comment is wrong on all levels.

First, we weren't talking about Pop. We were talking about Chump's refusal to believe that "a black person can know the system just as good as a white person and start at center ahead of a white person".(referring to Rasoh/Nazr)

But that was funny, nice one!

[ChumpDumper]

Well, that's the impression I get.[quote]Well, you're wrong. That's the impression everyone on this board got.[quote]As far as Nazr, well he was in the dog house and it was common knowledge that he was going to command much more than the Spurs were willing to offer.I don't think it was common knowledge at all that the Spurs wouldn't entertain a midlevel offer for Nazr once Rasho was gone. The fact is Nazr never allowed for any negotiation at all.

[Tom_Foolery]

I don't think it was common knowledge at all that the Spurs wouldn't entertain a midlevel offer for Nazr once Rasho was gone. The fact is Nazr never allowed for any negotiation at all.

Nazr "never allowed"?

What do you mean by this?(explain)

[coopdogg3]

And just when I thought Tom Foolery couldn't get any dumber, he releases a string of e-mails. Well done Tom. Way to exceed expectations there.

[coopdogg3]

And just when I thought Tom Foolery couldn't get any dumber, he releases another string of posts. Well done Tom. Way to exceed expectations there.

[Tom_Foolery]

And just when I thought Tom Foolery couldn't get any dumber, he releases a string of e-mails. Well done Tom. Way to exceed expectations there.


I don't know where you got your information from, but I haven't emailed anybody here.

[ChumpDumper]

Nazr "never allowed"?

What do you mean by this?(explain)He signed with Detroit without contacting the Spurs at all.

[Dingle Barry]

the circular logic re: racists in texas is amusing

[Extra Stout]

TF, your logic is flawless.

Texas has racists.

A lot of Spurs fans are in Texas.

Therefore, a lot of Spurs fans are racists.

I am so glad we have your enlightened sensibilities to guide us. Unlike us racist Spurs fans in lily-white hillbilly San Antonio, you don't deal in generalities or stereotypes, and all your assertions are well-informed.

[Solid D]

Meanwhile, back to the topic that "Elson HAS to start". It seems to be an unfinished sentence to me. He has to start what? Well, he needs to start:
*playing tougher on defense.
*learning and executing his defensive assignments.
*looking for passes at any time.

Pop was interviewed last night about Timmy's excellent play. Pop commented on how healthy Tim is and that he is in the best shape he's been in for at least 3 or 4 years. He added that Tim is really energized by Fab. He said that Fab is such a smart player and he really works well with Timmy.

[danyel]

I can't believe this thread went 4 pages.

Seriously, is there even a point comparing guys who play almost the same amount of minutes and produce the same amount of rebounds, points and assists?

Statiscally there is nothing you can prove, numbers are too close. Elson might be better but he hasn't out perfomed Oberto so far.

If you like Elson better thats fine, but he hasn't proved to be the better player so far, maybe Pops just goes with seniority on the team in order to chose the starting player.

[Mavs<Spurs]

TF, your logic is flawless.



I am so glad we have your enlightened sensibilities to guide us. Unlike us racist Spurs fans in lily-white hillbilly San Antonio, you don't deal in generalities or stereotypes, and all your assertions are well-informed.

Texas has racists.

A lot of Spurs fans are in Texas.

Therefore, a lot of Spurs fans are racists.

The argument above doesn't follow logically. The conclusion does not follow logically from the premises. The argument is not valid.

Texas has racoons.

A lot of Spurs fans are in Texas.

Therefore, a lot of Spurs fans are racoons. ????

Oops.

I hope that you are joking. :nope :nope

[Extra Stout]

I hope that you are joking. :nope :nope
You are racist AND anti-racoon. TF and I pass judgment on you.

P.S. Is it really just a coincidence that you started talking about "coons?" Uh-huh. Just go ahead and fit yourself for the white sheet.

[Mavs<Spurs]

You are racist AND anti-racoon. TF and I pass judgment on you.

P.S. Is it really just a coincidence that you started talking about "coons?" Uh-huh. Just go ahead and fit yourself for the white sheet.


That's not good.

[Extra Stout]

He added that Tim is really energized by Fab. He said that Fab is such a smart player and he really works well with Timmy.
Not saying that Tim Duncan is racist or prejudiced or anything, but he doesn't even seem willing to give Elson a chance.

[Mavs<Spurs]

Meanwhile, back to the topic that "Elson HAS to start". It seems to be an unfinished sentence to me. He has to start what? Well, he needs to start:
*playing tougher on defense.
*learning and executing his defensive assignments.
*looking for passes at any time.

Pop was interviewed last night about Timmy's excellent play. Pop commented on how healthy Tim is and that he is in the best shape he's been in for at least 3 or 4 years. He added that Tim is really energized by Fab. He said that Fab is such a smart player and he really works well with Timmy.

Solid D, I agree. I hope that I overreacted to last night and that he shows good hands. Because if he has that and does the other things you mentioned (play tougher on defense and looking for passes at any time), then he will be a huge addition to the Spurs.

[ChumpDumper]

Mavs<Spurs is spending too much time in school.

[Mavs<Spurs]

Not saying that Tim Duncan is racist or prejudiced or anything, but he doesn't even seem willing to give Elson a chance.


You have a funny sense of humor.

But be careful, not everybody knows that you are just kidding and some people may get easily offended.

[Extra Stout]

You have a funny sense of humor.

But be careful, not everybody knows that you are just kidding and some people may get easily offended.
Half the fun of being sarcastic on an Internet forum is when people don't get it and you can string them along.