Log in

View Full Version : Americans Still Missing The big Picture about This Election



Nbadan
11-04-2004, 04:33 AM
Still Missing the Big Picture About This Election

by galiel
Wed Nov 3rd, 2004 at 06:23:59 PST

This is not about Republicans or Democrats.
This is not about the war.
This is not about the economy.
This is not even about counting the votes.
This is the final step in the 20-year creeping coup by the theocrats, the Dominionists.

In the House and the Senate, the theocrats made dramatic advances, far beyond the number of seats that switched parties. On the GOP side, they have replaced moderates with zealots, and have significantly strengthened the support for the main theocrat bills that will be reintroduced in the new Congress.

You can hear it in the media's codewords: this election did NOT turn on Iraq or the economy or security, it turned on "moral values", the politically correct code-word for theocratic values, i.e., placing one's religion above the laws of man. Exit polls show that "moral values" were the most common #1 concern among voters, and that among those who marked "moral values" as their primary concern, 80% voted for Bush. Every state that had a same-sex marriage ban up for decision voted the theocrat way.

Diaries :: galiel's diary ::

When analysis of local races around the nation becomes available, it will become clear that theocrats have advanced everywhere, gaining control of even more school boards, gaining even more representation in city councils, winning even more seats in state legislatures.

Make no mistake, this election was the keystone of the theocrat coup. All that is left now is carrying out the agenda and changing the laws of this nation irrevocably to gut the Bill of Rights and establish a Dominionist government in America.

IN the coming days, Reinquist and others will resign, including half of the exhausted courageous liberals and moderates who held the line longer than anyone expected, and Bush will appoint a solid theocrat majority to the Supreme Court, and the Dems will not be able to stop it, fillibuster or not. The Dominionists have enough stealth candidates to push through like they pushed through Thomas, and the public pressure will be irressistible. In the next four years, theocrats will fill life-time appointments in the judiciary all over the nation, and essentially open the gates for the coming theocratic legislative agenda.

The administration will complete the overhaul of the science advisory committees and the Dept of Health and Human Services, laying the ground work for the overturning of Roe v. Wade and ending all biological research deemed objectionable to the theocrats.

They will complete their overhaul of the Education Department, starting a process of eliminating evolution from the national debate and working with the local and state boards, where they have now increased their control, to introduce creationism into the curriculum.

They will complete their overhaul of the Energy, Agriculture, Interior and EPA, which are already ridden with theocrats who reject the theory of evolution, and thus the concept of "fossil fuels", believing instead that their god has placed energy resources in the earth in just the right amounts for human domination of nature.

As soon as the theocrat majority is esconsed in the Supreme Court, Congress will pass three key theocrat bills, which already passed the House this time around and will pass the Senate next time around:

The Marriage Protection Act, which would bar federal courts, including the Supreme Court from intervening in cases involving a state's recognition of another state's civil rights bills regarding marriage;

The Pledge Preservation Act, which would bar the federal courts, including the Supreme Court, from hearing challenges to the "Under God" part of the pledge;

The big one, the Constitution Restoration Act, which would bar the federal courts, including the Supreme Court, from hearing any challenges to violations of the Establishment Clause, the bill having been written by Harb Titus, who defended former Judge Roy Moore, the "Ten Commandments" judges. The bill goes even further, potentially barring challenges to the constiutionality of state laws, for example, mandating stoning for adultery, if such laws are based on Old Testament rationale.

(I know you read this and think, "ridiculous, this could never happen here". You have a choice now, you can listen to those of us who have been predicting the current outcome for a long time, or you can continue to listen to those who predicted a different outcome and who still misinterpret actual results according to a Pollyanish worldview that refuses to acknowledge the critical danger to our nation and think this is "just another bad election")

Now, most people don't understand what is really going on here.

They focus on homophobia as the issue, or they trivialize the Pledge issue as not being critical to Separation traditions.

The real point is that the theocrats are constricting the courts' ability to challenge the establishment of religion in this country. Making this a Christian Dominionist nation based on literal interpretation of Old Testament law is an explicit part of the theocrat agenda.

I warned before the election that they were one victory away, and that they would win no matter what the actual vote was, because they are zealots who would do anything to win, including fraud on a massive scale that folks here just don't want to even concieve, because they have never looked radical religious extremism in the face the way I have, having lived in Israel for 13 years in the past.

The theocrats will not be stopped, because Americans refuse to believe that it could happen here.

It is just like Germany in the 20's---not like McCarthyism in the 50's. This is far worse, but denial is rampant, because we just don't want to believe that our America could fall to Christian Taliban.

We've already reached the tipping point. It is only a matter of time, unless people wake up--and I don't think they will, the taboo on confronting the dark side of religion is just too strong here in America.

What about Ohio, you say?

The judges deciding matters in Ohio, like the two judges that allowed challenges inside the polling places, are theocrats - one was the author of the original draft of the Thornburgh brief urging the Supreme Court to overturn Roe V. Wade, the other was the dissenting voice in cases about 10 Commandment displays on government property.

You think it is a coincidence that Ohio is the first place where statewide, the teaching of creationism has been mandated in science class?

Wake up, America!

Thus, the election is already over, even though I personally think that Kerry won, not only Ohio, but states like Florida, and may even have won the popular vote, so deep is the fraud, led by the electronic voting machines--not just those people actually use to vote, but far more significantly those used to tally the votes, carefully placed in key districts, carefully managed behind the scenes, vote totals manipulated with no way for an audit or verification.

But, unless you understand who is actually behind this election victory, you probably dismiss that as hysterical tin-foil paranoia. Surely, you think, the margins in places like Florida are beyond contesting.

That is because you still think this is just a struggle between two competing parties in a democracy. That is because you just don't get it.

This was a coup.

All I can say is, the folks who predicted morning in America have egg on their faces today, even as the struggle continues in Ohio. You choose who to listen to. The future of America is at stake, not just the next four years.

Because this is NOT about the surface issues.

I will write more about this in the coming days, when I get some sleep, can see straight, rage turns to cold anger, and the agenda starts to unfold.

I honestly do not believe I will be heard, but I can't live with myself if I don't at least try.

whottt
11-04-2004, 04:42 AM
When the Democrats stop acting blameless and realize their own role in alienating moderates from their party...the better off the party will be.

Until then...there are guys like this...

Nbadan
11-04-2004, 04:53 AM
The Democrats are already the party of moderates, check the final vote breakdown.

Hook Dem
11-04-2004, 11:25 AM
The Democrats are already the party of moderates, check the final vote breakdown.
You are in complete denial Dan! Why don't you look deeply as to why your party lost the election instead of blaming "rich" "white" "conservative" Americans. It's clear that the majority don't agree with you in your analysis. You can buck the trend or come to your senses and try to understand those who do not agree with you.

samikeyp
11-04-2004, 11:37 AM
Dan, let me ask you something.

Where do you or anybody else get the right to tell someone they are wrong because of how they voted? You may not like the guy someone votes for or the reason they voted for that person but you have to respect a persons right to vote for who they choose. I vote for who I think is the best person for the job. It doesn't matter what anyone else thing. That is my right as an American. You have the right to vote for who you want and to express that opinion. No one has the right to try and impose their beliefs or opinions on others and that is exactly what this author is doing.

Nbadan
11-04-2004, 11:39 AM
Who is the one in denial again? George Bush won because he was able to motivate his evangelical base. Thank you, Jerry Falwell and John Hagee. However, these extremists on the far right do not represent the majority of the people in the United States. You are seriously diluded if you think otherwise.

samikeyp
11-04-2004, 11:40 AM
However, these extremists on the far right do not represent the majority of the people in the United States

I agree with that but that still does not give anyone the right to tell me how I should vote or that I "missed the big picture" because I didn't do something they way someone else wanted me too.

Hook Dem
11-04-2004, 11:46 AM
Who is the one in denial again? George Bush won because he was able to motivate his evangelical base. Thank you, Jerry Falwell and John Hagee. However, these extremists on the far right do not represent the majority of the people in the United States. You are seriously diluded if you think otherwise.
I made no mention of Jerry Falwell or John Hagee or Enavgecal base. I said "moral America". "Most" Americans do not agree with you. Take a look at the vote again. I believe in God but I do not go around preaching everyday. Are you gonna label me part of the Evangical base? I'm trying to reason with you. Not run you down. If you don't want to discuss this, don't post anymore.

Nbadan
11-04-2004, 11:50 AM
Where do you or anybody else get the right to tell someone they are wrong because of how they voted? You may not like the guy someone votes for or the reason they voted for that person but you have to respect a persons right to vote for who they choose. I vote for who I think is the best person for the job. It doesn't matter what anyone else thing. That is my right as an American. You have the right to vote for who you want and to express that opinion. No one has the right to try and impose their beliefs or opinions on others and that is exactly what this author is doing.

Thomas Freidman is one of the most knowledgable people on Middle East policy. He recently quit writing columns just so he could travel through the Middle East and get a jest of what affect U.S. policy is having in the region. Now that's commitment. Something you won't ever see Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity or loud-mouthed Glennbeck types.

If you want to learn about plumbing, you become a plumbing apprentice, if you want to learn about electricity, you become a electrical apprentice, but if you want to learn anything about the Middle East all you have to do is religiously read Freidman's columns, the man simply knows what he is talking about. As someone who proclaims to know the real issues well enough to 'make up your own mind' about who to vote for, I shouldn't have to be telling you this. It should be common knowledge by now.

My job here isn't to tell anyone who or how to vote in any election, but to simply help them know the real facts, and quit falling for Republican double-speak and apologists. Before you attack my creditentials, improve yours.

travis2
11-04-2004, 11:51 AM
You have no credentials to attack. You are utterly without credibility.

Nbadan
11-04-2004, 11:52 AM
I agree with that but that still does not give anyone the right to tell me how I should vote or that I "missed the big picture" because I didn't do something they way someone else wanted me too.

Your missing the big picture because you simply don't know what you don't know. Let me ask you, have you traveled much outside of the U.S.?

Useruser666
11-04-2004, 11:53 AM
How does voting for some one who actually tries to get things done a religious thing? I could not vote for Kerry for two reasons. He offered me nothing over Bush. And he has no record to prove he could do a better job. I think the main difference between you and I Dan comes down to one thing. You voted for Kerry because he's not Bush. I voted for Bush because he is Bush.

Nbadan
11-04-2004, 11:54 AM
You have no credentials to attack. You are utterly without credibility.

speaking of no crediblity. :lol

The only time travis makes an appearance is to attack. Go back to your hole and hide little man, Bin Laden is coming to get you!

Hook Dem
11-04-2004, 11:55 AM
How does voting for some one who actually tries to get things done a religious thing? I could not vote for Kerry for two reasons. He offered me nothing over Bush. And he has no record to prove he could do a better job. I think the main difference between you and I Dan comes down to one thing. You voted for Kerry because he's not Bush. I voted for Bush because he is Bush.
Oh Shit!!!!!! Dan ain't gonna like this one! :lol

travis2
11-04-2004, 11:59 AM
speaking of no crediblity. :lol

The only time travis makes an appearance is to attack. Go back to your hole and hide little man, Bin Laden is coming to get you!

:rolleyes

Bring it on, brownshirt.

I don't doubt you know exactly what Bin Laden is up to, him being a buddy of yours and all...

JoeChalupa
11-04-2004, 12:01 PM
Barack Obama is the future of the Democratic party.
We will become the party of conservative democrats such as myself and Henry Cuellar, although I am pro-choice I do support lower taxes.
Moderate democrats needs to step up to the plate.
I do believe that my support for John Kerry was due to my support of pro-choice and legal civil unions. I want our military to be fully supported and the veterans hospitals must get the funding they need.
Senator John McCain and Joe Lieberman can work together and so can America.

Let's move on!!

Brodels
11-04-2004, 12:01 PM
Your missing the big picture because you simply don't know what you don't know. Let me ask you, have you traveled much outside of the U.S.?

Are you telling me that someone who hasn't traveled outside the U.S. is incapable of understanding the big picture?

Hook Dem
11-04-2004, 12:03 PM
Are you telling me that someone who hasn't traveled outside the U.S. is incapable of understanding the big picture?
Now 'ol Dan's gonna be exposed as a "rich" "white" "liberal" who can afford international travel. :lol

Nbadan
11-04-2004, 12:04 PM
How does voting for some one who actually tries to get things done a religious thing? I could not vote for Kerry for two reasons. He offered me nothing over Bush. And he has no record to prove he could do a better job. I think the main difference between you and I Dan comes down to one thing. You voted for Kerry because he's not Bush. I voted for Bush because he is Bush.

The breakdown of voter demographics proves that neither hispanic, nor Asians, nor African-Americans showed up in any great number to support Republican causes. The one great unifyer for the right was 'moral values", but who's moral values? and isn't this just coded wording for 'no faggots in my church'?

JoeChalupa
11-04-2004, 12:04 PM
The fact is that Kerry lost.
I've come to deal with it and will move on and work towards 2008.

Nbadan
11-04-2004, 12:06 PM
Bring it on, brownshirt.

Fuck you Travis. What's wrong? you put your ugly kids in the closet again?

Hook Dem
11-04-2004, 12:07 PM
The fact is that Kerry lost.
I've come to deal with it and will move on and work towards 2008.
Thank you Joe! Please try to relay that to Dan.

Nbadan
11-04-2004, 12:08 PM
I'll tell you something - the move to impeach George W. Bush begins today. Not four years from now.

Hook Dem
11-04-2004, 12:11 PM
I'll tell you something - the move to impeach George W. Bush begins today. Not four years from now.
Bring it on you Commie Bastard!

samikeyp
11-04-2004, 12:11 PM
My job here isn't to tell anyone who or how to vote in any election, but to simply help them know the real facts, and quit falling for Republican double-speak and apologists. Before you attack my creditentials, improve yours.

Posting articles gives you creditentials?

You are doing it again. You are accusing me of falling for double-speak and not giving me credit for being able to make an informed choice. Just because I didn't make the same choice you did doesn't mean I am incapable of making an informed choice. I have all the "creditentials" I need to vote. I am an American citizen who exercised his right to vote. I did a lot of research on the issues, and weighed those against what I believe. I considered voting for John Kerry. There were many things about him that I liked, in the end I thought George Bush was the better man for the job. In four years, he might prove me wrong but he earned my vote to try and prove to me I made the right choice.

Not that it matters...but I lived for several years in Germany.

samikeyp
11-04-2004, 12:13 PM
BTW Joe? I think you are a fine representation of how a democrat feels and believes.

Marcus Bryant
11-04-2004, 12:15 PM
Why do I have the feeling danny is currently in a locked room surrounded by padded walls?

travis2
11-04-2004, 12:17 PM
Fuck you Travis. What's wrong? you put your ugly kids in the closet again?

I rest my case...

Nbadan
11-04-2004, 12:20 PM
Look at the map Mikey, it does matter. Those who support W are less likely to have traveled out of their respective counties much less to the rest of the world. I'm thinking that it has been some years since you lived in Germany since you don't seem to comprehend how closed minded people can become when they are only around other people who think and act exactly like they do. It's a herd mentality that even propagates much of the thinking on this forum.

Nbadan
11-04-2004, 12:21 PM
I rest my case...

You rest your face? aren't you busy sitting on it?

Hook Dem
11-04-2004, 12:21 PM
I rest my case...
As well you should Travis. This lunatic talks about "your ugly kids" on one hand and tells us how we are discriminating. The sooner the Democratic party rids themselves of trash like him, the better off they will be.

Clandestino
11-04-2004, 12:22 PM
Look at the map Mikey, it does matter. Those who support W are less likely to have traveled out of their respective counties much less to the rest of the world. I'm thinking that it has been some years since you lived in Germany since you don't seem to comprehend how closed minded people can become when they are only around other people who think and act exactly like they do. It's a herd mentality that even propagates much of the thinking on this forum.

i find that hard to believe. 70%+ of the military supports bush. and most of the military travels a lot.

I voted for Bush and I lived in Europe for over 6 years. I just recently moved back.

Spurminator
11-04-2004, 12:22 PM
Your argument relies on the assumption that travel is virtuous.

Maybe some people don't want to leave their county and vote based on how a candidate will affect their town. It's not like they're the only ones voting with themselves in mind.

Hook Dem
11-04-2004, 12:23 PM
Look at the map Mikey, it does matter. Those who support W are less likely to have traveled out of their respective counties much less to the rest of the world. I'm thinking that it has been some years since you lived in Germany since you don't seem to comprehend how closed minded people can become when they are only around other people who think and act exactly like they do. It's a herd mentality that even propagates much of the thinking on this forum.
Herd mentality????? You invented it. You are the undisputed king of the herd spewing hatred.

Nbadan
11-04-2004, 12:23 PM
The sooner closed minded people like you are six feet under the better for the coming Republican party Hook.

Hook Dem
11-04-2004, 12:26 PM
The sooner closed minded people like you are six feet under the better for the coming Republican party Hook.
At your current rate of accumilating enemies, I would bet you get there before I do. :lol

Nbadan
11-04-2004, 12:26 PM
find that hard to believe. 70%+ of the military supports bush. and most of the military travels a lot.

I voted for Bush and I lived in Europe for over 6 years. I just recently moved back

The military has always been a Republican party bastion. Yes, you do go overseas, but you don't actually interact with the local much now do you? Big difference.

Spurminator
11-04-2004, 12:27 PM
Your argument also assumes that these other countries have it right.

Nbadan
11-04-2004, 12:27 PM
At your current rate of accumilating enemies, I would bet you get there before I do

Don't bet on it. GW is making sure that seniors die out before they use up all that entitlement money.

Marcus Bryant
11-04-2004, 12:27 PM
you don't seem to comprehend how closed minded people can become when they are only around other people who think and act exactly like they do.

I'd say danny is a fine example of that which he describes.

Nbadan
11-04-2004, 12:29 PM
Your argument also assumes that these other countries have it right.

..and your argument assumes that only the U.S. has it right. My bet is on the rest of the world.

travis2
11-04-2004, 12:29 PM
The military has always been a Republican party bastion. Yes, you do go overseas, but you don't actually interact with the local much now do you? Big difference.

Very big assumption. And as is your wont, completely incorrect.

Nbadan
11-04-2004, 12:31 PM
I'd say danny is a fine example of that which he describes.

:rolleyes

Yeah, and I remember when I was part of the fringe group telling you that Rush Limpballs and Sean Insannity were a joke. Now it's common knowledge.

Spurminator
11-04-2004, 12:31 PM
..and your argument assumes that only the U.S. has it right. My bet is on the rest of the world.

No, my argument is that "right" is relative.

Hook Dem
11-04-2004, 12:32 PM
Don't bet on it. GW is making sure that seniors die out before they use up all that entitlement money.
Tell you what Dan! I'll bet this "old man" can whip your ass any day of the week. Deal? :flipoff

Marcus Bryant
11-04-2004, 12:33 PM
Unless danny boy is a deliberate caricature (it's a bit old by now) then he's a prime example of why the Demos lost big in this election and will continue to do so.

1369
11-04-2004, 12:34 PM
Hey Dan, with all the posting you do, and assuming you have a job, do you feel any remorse about stealing from your employer for chasing and posting conspiracies while you should be working?

Hook Dem
11-04-2004, 12:34 PM
Unless danny boy is a deliberate caricature (it's a bit old by now) then he's a prime example of why the Demos lost big in this election and will continue to do so.
Thats why we should encourage him to continue his lunatic ways.

Clandestino
11-04-2004, 12:34 PM
^^^haha..

Marcus Bryant
11-04-2004, 12:35 PM
Yeah, and I remember when I was part of the fringe group telling you that Rush Limpballs and Sean Insannity were a joke. Now it's common knowledge.

So they're a "joke" yet they just played a major part, according to you, in generating the largest vote total for a presidential candidate in US history?

JoeChalupa
11-04-2004, 12:35 PM
So much for the healing after the election. :(

Nbadan
11-04-2004, 12:36 PM
Fact is, before Nov 2nd, most Euro didn't blame ordinary Americans for our arrogant Middle east policies - they blamed our Government. However, this election, as I have pointed out many times, was a referendum on the policies of George Walker Bush, and by re-electing him, we have lived up to our growing reputation in Europe as the ugly, arrogant Americans. Now let me ask you, is that any way to convince our allies that we need them in this war on terrorism and in Iraq?

travis2
11-04-2004, 12:36 PM
Don't jump to conclusions, Joe...most of us still think you're an OK guy...

samikeyp
11-04-2004, 12:37 PM
say what you want, Dan but I am the only who decides who I vote for. Because I voted for Bush had nothing to do with anybody else but me and because the guy I voted for won, doesn't make me part of the herd.

Hook Dem
11-04-2004, 12:37 PM
Joe is more than an ok guy. I consider him a friend!

Nbadan
11-04-2004, 12:38 PM
Hey Dan, with all the posting you do, and assuming you have a job, do you feel any remorse about stealing from your employer for chasing and posting conspiracies while you should be working?

I am self-employed. I don't need corporate welfare to take care of me or mine.

Hook Dem
11-04-2004, 12:38 PM
say what you want, Dan but I am the only who decides who I vote for. Because I voted for Bush had nothing to do with anybody else but me and because the guy I voted for won, doesn't make me part of the herd.
A view that any sane person should be able to respect.

Samurai Jane
11-04-2004, 12:41 PM
I think moderate Democrats, like Joe, need to break off and form their own party or kick the loonies out. Just my humble opinion..

Marcus Bryant
11-04-2004, 12:41 PM
However, this election, as I have pointed out many times, was a referendum on the policies of George Walker Bush, and by re-electing him,

...the American people rejected your argument. Get a clue chump.

samikeyp
11-04-2004, 12:43 PM
Joe is more than an ok guy. I consider him a friend!

as do I.

and thanks, Hook.

Hook Dem
11-04-2004, 01:01 PM
I am self-employed. I don't need corporate welfare to take care of me or mine.
Me too Dan! I had a good Republican rain the other day and my grass needs harvesting. Have fun posting without me. I must go cut the grass cause I'm self employed. :lol

JoeChalupa
11-04-2004, 01:06 PM
The democratic party must get back to our core values.
That it’s morally wrong to give huge tax cuts to the rich while cutting social programs for the poor and working class—especially when the gap between the rich and everyone else is wider than it’s been in more than a century.
And I'm not for government handouts and I do believe in sensible spending.
I know I bitch about the deficit but I don't like to see veterans returning from duty and having to wait 6-9 months to get treatment. If we can send billions to Iraq surely we can find a billion to make sure that our military get the best treatment available.
That we have a moral obligation to give every American child a good education and decent health care.
I too believe in moral issues.

Useruser666
11-04-2004, 02:05 PM
The breakdown of voter demographics proves that neither hispanic, nor Asians, nor African-Americans showed up in any great number to support Republican causes. The one great unifyer for the right was 'moral values", but who's moral values? and isn't this just coded wording for 'no faggots in my church'?

I'm sorry, but I believe you're trying to classify me as a biggot or racist of some sort. I take great offense to that Dan. You don't know me, my race, or what if any religious associations I am affiliated with. You are ignorant about all of this, yet you are so quick to pass judgement.

I hate to break this to you, but moral values weren't even a top 5 reason for me to vote for Bush. Like I said earlier, your vote isn't based on what your candidate can do, just that he isn't the candidate that you have such a hate hard on for. I voted for the guy that is the best, not against the guy I didn't like.

Alas, I know you will never change. The further you are pressed to explain yourself the shallower your responses get, the clearer it is to ALL that your goals are out of alignment. You fight the impossible fight, you are the boxer with no arms.

Yonivore
11-04-2004, 02:42 PM
"The democratic party must get back to our core values.
That it’s morally wrong to give huge tax cuts to the rich while cutting social programs for the poor and working class..."
It's morally wrong to soak, via taxation, those that provide the jobs to the working class thereby reducing the capital that would be used to expand business and create jobs.

"...—especially when the gap between the rich and everyone else is wider than it’s been in more than a century."
Some would argue that government entitlements have driven people to a dependency class where there is no incentive to be a member of the "middle-class" and that those who eschew the government handouts are those that have excelled in wealth and that this is the reason for a vacation of the middle-class. Also, some would argue that even our most poor are wealthier than those in a majority of the world and, wealthier even, that the American poor of just a decade ago.

"And I'm not for government handouts and I do believe in sensible spending."
Sounds like you are...at least, you're in favor of a force redistribution of wealth from the "haves" to the "have nots."

"I know I bitch about the deficit but I don't like to see veterans returning from duty and having to wait 6-9 months to get treatment. If we can send billions to Iraq surely we can find a billion to make sure that our military get the best treatment available."
I'm not saying we don't have a some distance to go in the realm of Veteran's care. However, the Veteran's administration is receiving more money under the Bush administration (in real or inflation-adjusted dollars) than from any previous administration. It'll catch up.

"That we have a moral obligation to give every American child a good education and decent health care."
Maybe as Americans but, certainly not as a government.

"I too believe in moral issues."
I don't recall anyone accusing you of being immoral...just confused.

Aggie Hoopsfan
11-04-2004, 02:49 PM
The irony of this thread is most of the hate I see in it (particularly towards homosexuals) is being spewed by a die hard liberal.

Go figure.