The Spurs must trade for a long SF [Archive]

whottt

12-11-2006, 02:21 PM

To have any shot at winning a title this season.

Until we get that player Pop is going to continue with his 4 shooting guards and Duncan lineups and cost us games.

Every time we lose a game the culprit is a big athletic SF who creates matchup problems for us...whether he is lined up as a traditional SF, or if he is being played at the PF position forcing Pop into his small :puke: ball lineup.

We need a long SF who goes about 230 and 6'8 minimum that can play D, keep up with athletic players, and rebound.

Viktor Kyrhapa is making noises about PT in Chicago...he makes a minimum salary...the Bulls need to move him to fill their own needs. We need to make something happen here and Kyrhapa is probably the best available piece IMO.

This team, as it is constructed now, will not win the NBA championship this year.

We will continue to be done in in individual matchups by the Josh Howard's, the Lamar Odom's and Luke Walton's, the Donyell Marhsall's, the Bonzie Wells' and Ron Artest's....and LeBron James', TMac's and Carmelo Anthony's...etc.

This team will continue to lose games to coaches and teams that can play defense and that force Pop into a matchup contest using big SF types...due to rebounding more than anything else.

And BTW, the Lakers will continue to give us problems this season and for the foreseeable future until we close that hole...they have almost an entire team of big SF types.

RobinsontoDuncan

12-11-2006, 02:22 PM

how big is sandizkid?

whottt

12-11-2006, 02:25 PM

He's the right height but he's too young and too skinny. He makes Barry look like Shaq.

Lebowski Brickowski

12-11-2006, 02:27 PM

Pull another con job on Isiaha and get David Lee -- hell, give him Butler back.

Bruno

12-11-2006, 03:15 PM

Walton Buys Off Me

12-11-2006, 03:17 PM

Rashard Lewis?

Bob Lanier

12-11-2006, 03:21 PM

Rashard Lewis?

Parker+Barry+1st for Watson+Lewis?

whottt's argument isn't very convincing, though.

We need a long SF who goes about 230 and 6'8 minimum that can play D, keep up with athletic players, and rebound.
Okay, so you need Ron Artest. Is there a single other player in the NBA who meets all of those qualifications? Oh, wait, he's only 6-7.

We will continue to be done in in individual matchups by the Josh Howard's, the Lamar Odom's and Luke Walton's, the Donyell Marhsall's, the Bonzie Wells' and Ron Artest's....and LeBron James', TMac's and Carmelo Anthony's...etc.
Also the Shaqs, Yaos, and Boykinses.

whottt

12-11-2006, 04:36 PM

Parker+Barry+1st for Watson+Lewis?

Okay, so you need Ron Artest. Is there a single other player in the NBA who meets all of those qualifications? Oh, wait, he's only 6-7.

There are dozens of them....it's probably the deepest position in the NBA right now...the Spurs not having one is the aberration in the league.

And Artest may be only 6'7(if he's even that tall, I thought he was 6'5) but he weighs 260 something lbs which makes him a tough guard for Manu, Bowen, Finley or Barry...

If you watched the Spurs more you wouldn't be so clueless as to why this is a dire need.

Also the Shaqs, Yaos, and Boykinses.

Shaq is done, Yao can be run off the court and Boykins is the guy you want shooting...

Mr. Body

12-11-2006, 04:40 PM

If Viktor Khryapa is the answer, don't tell me the question. This guy is definitely not preventing us from getting a championship. What we're lacking is the bowling-ball, do-everything wrecker like Josh Howard, who can defend, knock down shots, and pull offensive boards. The Russian is definitely not fast enough to be any of those things.

Our only hope at this point is to pull a guy in next year's draft or hope some young team with a glut of SFs, like Atlanta now that Marvin is back, can be convinced to let some of their talent go.

Otherwise, we're not repairing this team on the fly, not with the assets we have.

And I don't like the Duhon+Khryapa for Udrih+Scola trade. Duhon simply makes too much money for a backup point guard.

whottt

12-11-2006, 04:43 PM

NuGGeTs-FaN

12-11-2006, 04:44 PM

u need Dermarr Johnson :smokin

GK hates him, we love him :lol he would shine under Pop

whottt

12-11-2006, 04:46 PM

If Viktor Khryapa is the answer, don't tell me the question. This guy is definitely not preventing us from getting a championship. What we're lacking is the bowling-ball, do-everything wrecker like Josh Howard, who can defend, knock down shots, and pull offensive boards. The Russian is definitely not fast enough to be any of those things.

Kyrhapa can rebound and defend on the perimeter very well. And he hustles his butt off...

Hey a few years ago Steve Kerr was the answer....sometimes it's just a little thing that can make a big difference.

We have a gap on roster of certain bodytype of player which Pop counters by putting a shitty 4 guard lineup on the floor....resulting in us getting outrebounded more than anything else....but also posted up at the guard and swing spots....

Kyrhapa can solve that problem well enough to where it's no longer an achilles heel...he'd be getting more minutes if he didn't play for a team which has 35 SF's on it playing ahead of him.

The Truth #6

12-11-2006, 04:51 PM

I'll agree with Whott on this one. To me the question is, why did we let Linton Johnson go? I know he's not great but he seemed to have the right size and attitude.

I feel like Finley is a noose around our neck. Pop doesn't have the balls to not play him because he busts his ass in practice or whatever. And because Finley is playing that means that we can't develop a young player right now, which is the time to do it.

I'd like to see this empire continue, and not all of a sudden collapse from old age.

Solid D

12-11-2006, 04:58 PM

The Spurs must trade for a long SF

"In the year two thou-sand"

mother

12-11-2006, 04:58 PM

We need a long SF who goes about 230 and 6'8 minimum

Linton Johnson
Height: 6-8 Weight: 225

I remember him being injured and somehow ended up on the nets. What happened to him?

whottt

12-11-2006, 05:04 PM

Spurs just let him go....he was still a project then with no offensive game, but he has developed a bit since then and it appears his offense could serve the team in a spot up shooting role if nothing else.

I'd be quite happy to get LJIII...I'd be quite happy to get anyone that's 6'8-9 and under the age of 30.

I'd be happy to have some kind of true SF on the team even if it's just a third string guy.

This 4 2 guard rotation is starting to become a consistent matchup problem that teams are attacking...plus they know it will force Pop into putting a lineup out there that fundamentally changes the Spurs D scheme...thus fundamentally changing the Spurs, for the worse.

Streakyshooter08

12-11-2006, 05:05 PM

Linton Johnson
Height: 6-8 Weight: 225

I remember him being injured and somehow ended up on the nets. What happened to him?

I think he plays for the Hornets now...

Bob Lanier

12-11-2006, 05:20 PM

There are dozens of them....it's probably the deepest position in the NBA right now...the Spurs not having one is the aberration in the league.This is what you said you need:

We need a long SF who goes about 230 and 6'8 minimum that can play D, keep up with athletic players, and rebound.
Players who are minimum 6'8" and 230 lb. are called power forwards. There are a number of 6'8"+ players who play the 3, but only a handful of those are anywhere near 230 lb. There are a number of 230 lb. 3s in the NBA, but few of them is close to 6'8". Of those in either category, only a fraction can play decent defense or "keep up with athletic players".

Shaq is done, Yao can be run off the court and Boykins is the guy you want shooting...
The point is that you listed a ridiculous collection of 2s, 3s, and 4s, some of whom score on the block, some slashing from the wing, and some with spot-up jumpshots (along with players like Luke Walton and Donyell Marshall who nobody should be worrying about). No player in the modern NBA with the possible exception of Ron Artest could be expected to do an able job of guarding all those players.

Joey Graham is a very nice prospect who would probably fit what you're looking for if you were more honest about it, but I doubt Toronto would be willing to let him go.

Fuck, pick up Delfino from Detroit. He's 6-7, 225, can do a halfway decent job on about half the players you mentioned, and it's no secret that Flip doesn't particularly care for his game. But he's a 2, not a 3, and he's not terribly long.

What happened to Eric Williams, anyway? He's not working out, or is he just done?

AFBlue

12-11-2006, 05:22 PM

I cut past a list of long SF who can be available for cheap that I've made in another thread :
Joey Graham
Viktor Khryapa
Ronald Dupree
Bernard Robinson
Allan Anderson
Linton Johnson
Matt Barnes
James Singleton
Maurice Evans
Jumaine Jones

To be honest, I really like Joey Graham out of that list. He has the talent to be the answer for a long, athletic rebounder and defender. I think he hasn't been coached up enough in Toronto and has lost some confidence.

With the "Euro" craze that Colangelo is going through, I figure we could get him for the rights to Scola and the expiring contract of Williams.

Bruno

12-11-2006, 05:29 PM

A guy that is too big for Manu, Bowen, Finley or Barry...and too quick for any of our 6'10+guys...

You look at the teams we are likely to meet in the post season and they all have at least one of those types of players...whether it be Dallas, LA, Denver, Phoenix, Houston or Utah.

To me, there are two differents cases :
- Teams with a quick PF (Dallas, LA, Phoenix)
- Teams with a strong SF (Denver, Houston, Utah)

Against teams with a quick PF, the choice is between Elson/Oberto or the long SF who played at PF.
I'm not sure that Parker/Manu/Bruce/Khryapa/Duncan is a better lineup than Parker/Manu/Bruce/Elson/Duncan against a team like Mavs. Khryapa can maybe do a slighty better job an Dirk than Elson but Elson can do a better job at rebounding than Khryapa. Against teams with a quick PF, Spurs are better than last year because Oberto/Elson is a quicker combo than Rasho/Nazr.

Against teams with a strong SF, Spurs are in trouble when Bruce is out. I think that a player like Khryapa can really be usefull againstMelo or elbron.

I'll tell you right now we won't be getting past the Rockets unless we get someone to put on Bonzi. And he'll be there come playoff time unless the Rockets just get stupid.

It's not sure that Bonzi will still be with Rockets at the trade deadline, rumors are JVG is fed up with him.
And when you look more closely, Spurs can't put a long SF against Bonzi :
Rockets lineup will be Alston/Wells/TMac/Battier(or Hayes or Howard)/Yao.
Parker can only defend on Alston, Duncan won't defend on yao except in the fourth quarter and will mainly defend on the opposite PF. The best matchup left for Manu is Wells.

Bruno

12-11-2006, 05:31 PM

With the "Euro" craze that Colangelo is going through, I figure we could get him for the rights to Scola and the expiring contract of Williams.

Raptors are really stacked at PF, I don't think they are interested in Scola. Draft picks seems to be the more appealing things for them.

whottt

12-11-2006, 05:32 PM

This is what you said you need:

Players who are minimum 6'8" and 230 lb. are called power forwards. There are a number of 6'8"+ players who play the 3, but only a handful of those are anywhere near 230 lb. There are a number of 230 lb. 3s in the NBA, but few of them is close to 6'8". Of those in either category, only a fraction can play decent defense or "keep up with athletic players".

False...LeBron James and Carmelo Anthony are not PF's.

You are just messed up by what a lot of teams currently play at the PF slot...

Lamar Odom is a true SF. I'd say that's what Dirk's true position is as well. Shawn Marion is a true SF as well.

The point is that you listed a ridiculous collection of 2s, 3s, and 4s, some of whom score on the block, some slashing from the wing, and some with spot-up jumpshots (along with players like Luke Walton and Donyell Marshall who nobody should be worrying about). No player in the modern NBA with the possible exception of Ron Artest could be expected to do an able job of guarding all those players.

Also false....and from the Spurs POV, just about anyone bigger than 6'7 and 210 could do it for the Spurs without a built in physical disadvantage.

We have no SF on our roster...I guess Eric Williams. What we have is a collection of 2 guards doing stop gap on what has traditionally been known as a SF. And it hurts us.

What happened to Eric Williams, anyway? He's not working out, or is he just done?

Pop doesn't play him...which means he could have the talent of Jordan but if Pop doesn't play him and elects instead to go with 2guards playing PF...we will continue to get ourrebounded and outmuscled at that position and we will continue to lose.

All the players I mention are bigmen with smallman's athelticism...what has been traditionally in the NBA the most athletic and versatile position on the court....the SF. Whether it be Bonzi or Tmac....calling themselves a 2 guard, or not.

whottt

12-11-2006, 05:38 PM

Hey I'd take Tashaun Prince at the position as well...but in lieu of getting lottery talent for the position...you have to go for size and mobility prototypes typical of the SF.

GINNNNNNNNNNNNOBILI

12-11-2006, 05:55 PM

I wonder how bad the Pacers want to get rid of SJax

timvp

12-11-2006, 07:21 PM

White Goodman

12-11-2006, 07:22 PM

TREVOR ARIZA perfect fit for this Spurs and you know it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :flipoff :flipoff

redskinfan

12-11-2006, 07:34 PM

James White Baby!!!!!

exstatic

12-11-2006, 07:43 PM

TREVOR ARIZA perfect fit for this Spurs and you know it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :flipoff :flipoff
Two problems with Ariza:
Orlando isn't going to let him go.
He can't shoot his way out of a wet paper bag.

shelshor

12-11-2006, 07:51 PM

I'll put Ryan Gomes, from the Celtics, name out there
Born: Sep 1, 1982
Height: 6-7 / 2,01
Weight: 250 lbs. / 113,4 kg.
College : Providence
Years Pro: 1
In primarily a reserve role so far this season:
2006-07 Statistics
PPG 11.2 RPG 6.60 APG 2.4

An inch shorter than your minimum, but he already has one triple double this season--don't know about last season
He can score: I know he set a new scoring record for Providence and maybe for the Conference they're
Not sure if his defense is up to Spurs standards, but he is willing to go for rebounds

RuffnReadyOzStyle

12-11-2006, 08:02 PM

Jumaine Jones is sitting on the end of the Suns' pine doing nothing, paid minimum.

He's 6'8", 220, 27yo, averages about 7.5boards/40 mins when playing 25mins+, and he can shoot the ball.

Why isn't he on our team again?

Bruno

12-11-2006, 08:02 PM

I'll put Ryan Gomes

I don't see how Spurs can get him without trading Manu or Tony.
Celtics seems to be really high on him.

SequSpur

12-11-2006, 08:15 PM

For what?

Popovich is going to keep on playing Parker, Manu, Bowen, Duncan and Oberto.

Why do they need someone else? Pop is to stupid to get away from his 62 win bread and butter and 2nd round loss lineups.

Popovich would've turn Josh Howard into a European player.

AFBlue

12-11-2006, 09:10 PM

Raptors are really stacked at PF, I don't think they are interested in Scola. Draft picks seems to be the more appealing things for them.

Bosh, Bargnani, and Garbajosa play PF, but spend alot of time out on the perimeter. Kris Humphries plays like 5 minutes a game, and Rasho isn't blowing anyone back with his play either.

Right now the Raptors are chock full of permiter players (at all positions) and need some muscle. I know Scola isn't imposing at 6'9, but he does most of his good work in the paint.

Oh and draft picks...the Spurs have those too.

whottt

12-11-2006, 09:30 PM

I don't want to say that players like Michael Finley and Brent Barry are antiquated in today's NBA, but it's starting to look that way. One dimensional spot up shooters who don't defend, rebound or have the ability to penetrate off the dribble and score at the rim are much less valuable under the rules of today.

Three or four years ago when it was almost impossible to drive the lane, these spot up shooters were important because you had to spread the floor if you wanted any chance of your swingmen getting to the rim. Nowadays, players like Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili can get to the rim without shooters to spread the court.

Hopefully I'm wrong and the Spurs can prove that players like Finley and Barry can help win championships.

Why do you insist on lumping Barry and Finley together as if they are similar players?

They are not...unlike Finley, Barry has value even when his shooting sucks(or when he doesn't shoot enough).

Assists count....

Additionally....Barry has never sucked as bad as Finley has this season, as a Spur.

Not for one second in his Spurs career has anyone ever dared Barry to shoot...ever.

While OTOH...I would swear Phil was calling timeouts in the game the other night for no other reason than to give Pop the opportunity to draw up plays for Finley....

Start noticing the difference....what's next? Not being able to tell the difference between Darko Millicic and Adriens Biedrin? :smokin

ALVAREZ6

12-11-2006, 09:35 PM

Nocioni is the best match for the Spurs, he hustles, gets rebounds, is tough, all characteristics that sort of go hand in hand with Pop. And, just like Bowen, he can knock down threes.

whottt

12-11-2006, 09:37 PM

Um...Nocioni is also a starter for the Bulls...exactly how do you plan on us getting him?

And if we are naming unattainable players just for the hell of it...I'd rather have LeBron than Nocioni.

ALVAREZ6

12-11-2006, 09:40 PM

Um...Nocioni is also a starter for the Bulls...exactly how do you plan on us getting him?

And if we are naming unattainable players just for the hell of it...I'd rather have LeBron than Nocioni.
:)

Kori Ellis

12-11-2006, 10:22 PM

Rashard Lewis?

I thought he wanted a SF who could play D.

RuffnReadyOzStyle

12-11-2006, 11:40 PM

I thought he wanted a SF who could play D.

I guess that's why we ignored Jones?

GRob was a hopeless defender too, until he came here. he did some surprising things near the end of 2005...

slayermin

12-12-2006, 01:36 AM

Danny Granger
Travis Outlaw
Josh Smith
Josh Childress
Marvin Williams
Gerald Green
Gerald Wallace
Luol Deng

velik_m

12-12-2006, 03:39 AM

Bostjan Nachbar

Born: Jul 3, 1980
Height: 6-9 / 2,06
Weight: 221 lbs. / 100,2 kg.
From : Slovenia
Years Pro: 4

Dalamar_the_Dark

12-12-2006, 06:19 AM

Can we trade rights to scola, and a first round pick to Indiana for Granger?

I really like the kid and he can play shooting guard as well.

Think Indiana might be interested in scola cause their frontline is paperthin. they have Baston starting in place of o'neal. They might be willing to let granger go if Marshall works out for them cause they were pretty high on him to let James White go.

Emanuel20

12-12-2006, 07:42 AM

well, obviously we are not getting anyone this year so..let's have hope PEOPLE

Bruno

12-12-2006, 08:00 AM

Right now the Raptors are chock full of permiter players (at all positions) and need some muscle. I know Scola isn't imposing at 6'9, but he does most of his good work in the paint.

Maybe you're right (even if Bosh is a talented low post scorer) but if they want
a paint scorer they will try to get a C or a SF and not a PF because they still have a lot of natural PFs in their team.

Oh and draft picks...the Spurs have those too.

That's why he is on my available list. Another solution is to trade Scola to a third team for a draft pick that will be used to get graham.

Another kind of deal that can maybe happen is a Sheed like trade. Spurs have
a lot of expiring contracts and they can package them with a draft pick for a good player with an expiring contract that won't re-sign with a bad team. Gerald Wallace is in the sheed situation, he is expiring and likely won't re-sign with Charlotte because they sucks and because they have Morisson at SF.

Bruno

12-12-2006, 08:05 AM

Bostjan Nachbar

Born: Jul 3, 1980
Height: 6-9 / 2,06
Weight: 221 lbs. / 100,2 kg.
From : Slovenia
Years Pro: 4

I've thought at him few days ago but I wonder if he is good enough defender to be a good fit for SA.
One thing is sure is that he is available for really cheap, he is in Frank's doghouse and his contract isn't expiring. Eric Williams is enough to get him.

AFBlue

12-12-2006, 10:45 AM

Danny Granger
Travis Outlaw
Josh Smith
Josh Childress
Marvin Williams
Gerald Green
Gerald Wallace
Luol Deng

Of those players, only one (Outlaw) is attainable with the trade pieces we have.

The other names a good, don't get me wrong, but they are starting-calibur players now or they will be in a year or so. Young players with upside usually cost an arm and a leg.

The only "hope" is for Belkin to win the Ownership battle in Atlanta, fire Billy Knight and make wholesale changes to the organization (i.e. getting rid of one of their three small forwards).

mountainballer

12-12-2006, 11:00 AM

It's obvious that Spurs lack a long SF and it's even not really new. I don't know if Spurs are really looking for one, they have signed Linton Johnson in 05 and some long SFs have been invited for training camp (Melzer, Jamar Smith, Jawad Williams..) but the last long SF who really played with a Spurs jersey was Hedo in 04 (I don't count Glenn Robinson in 05 because he hasn't played a lot). Spurs have spend more than 2 years without a long SF, I'm not sure that getting one is a priority for them.

I'm not sure that Spurs can't win a title without a long SF. In 05 they have won the title without one. The need for a long SF depends a lot on who Spurs will face in playoffs and we will know better what teams are really dangerous in 1 or 2 months.

I cut past a list of long SF who can be available for cheap that I've made in another thread :
Joey Graham
Viktor Khryapa
Ronald Dupree
Bernard Robinson
Allan Anderson
Linton Johnson
Matt Barnes
James Singleton
Maurice Evans
Jumaine Jones

I like Viktor Khryapa but I don't think that Spurs should give a lot to get him because he isn't a great talent. Bulls biggest need is a low post scorer, I can see them being interested in Scola but I'm not ready to give up Scola only for Khryapa. However, Udrih + Eric Williams + Scola for Khryapa + Duhon can be a very good deal for Spurs and I think that Bulls cna do it if they are high on Scola.

i agree on most items and think that your list is pretty accurate.
just some comments
Khryapa: i liked him a lot when he played Euroleague with CSKA and back then i always thought he could be Spurs material.
he is not a talent who stands out, but he has some qualities that would match the Spurs needs, qualities few other teams will be able to discover and to use (that's IMO why he is still far underrated).
and some reports said that he was on the Spurs wish list in the draft 2004, but he was picked before.
K. would help in different areas. defending players like Dirk and Odom
and he would help to increase the rebounding production considering that none of the current Spurs SF options is even average in this regard.
as mentioned, he is unhappy in Chicago, does not have a future there (behind Deng, Noc, TT, who all play like Khryapa the 3 and 4)
right now should be the best moment to get him for a bargain.

the price could be: 1st rounder (+2nd rounder if necessary or Sanikidze rights) + Vaughn (to meet the salary)

Butler (Bulls have more use for him and i don't agree that he was a steal of the free agency) for Khryapa + Griffin.
right now Griffin would also be somehow usefull for some minutes. (much more than E Williams)

i agree that Scola's rights straight for K. is to much (even if i don't think the value of the rights are as high as many fans think.), but maybe there is no need to throw them in. (naive as i am, i still belive Scola could once be a Spur, as the successor of Horry)

the name some more players who could be on a trade option list:
James Jones. Spurs thought of offering him a contract 2005 (before Finley was put on the market). he has the same problem in Phoenix like Khryapa has in Chicago. tons of other (more talented) SFs on the roster. he would not be a force on defense (but he is better on D as most give him credit for), but he is a decent rebounder, has a nice jump shot and might work well in a small line up playing the 4. (better than Bonner for example)

James Posey
he isn't happy any more in Miami and Heat are still desperate for a PG, offer them Beno + Scola rights + E.Williams

Gerald Wallace
i guess Bobcats know that they can't resign him for the price they want to pay (they will save the money for resigning Okafor, Felton and Morrison) and he has lost many of his offensive plays to Morrison anyhow, so Bobcats might be interested to trade him.
(for Beno + Scola rights + Williams + Picks)

Streakyshooter08

12-12-2006, 11:06 AM

I would love to see Gerald Wallace comming to the Spurs, but I doubt it is gonna happen. I don't think we have anything the Bobcats want...

ManuTastic

12-12-2006, 11:12 AM

...I'd be quite happy to get anyone that's 6'8-9
Eric Williams

...and under the age of 30.
...uh, whoops.

Mr. Body

12-12-2006, 11:20 AM

Gerald Wallace
i guess Bobcats know that they can't resign him for the price they want to pay (they will save the money for resigning Okafor, Felton and Morrison) and he has lost many of his offensive plays to Morrison anyhow, so Bobcats might be interested to trade him.
(for Beno + Scola rights + Williams + Picks)

Wallace has a player option for next year, according to hoopshype. Is it consensus he'll test the marked, instead? He's having a lousy year so far. Last year he was worth 2.5 steals and 2.1 blocks a game in full minutes, which is crazy.

regio

12-12-2006, 11:23 AM

I would love to see Gerald Wallace comming to the Spurs, but I doubt it is gonna happen. I don't think we have anything the Bobcats want...

Maybe Barry + Scola would be appealing to them.

Mr. Body

12-12-2006, 11:23 AM

Of those players, only one (Outlaw) is attainable with the trade pieces we have.

You think Outlaw is available with our pieces? I don't think he's available at all at this point, much less for what we have.

Mr. Body

12-12-2006, 11:24 AM

Maybe Barry + Scola would be appealing to them.

Maybe next summer, but this year I don't think you give up Barry at all.

regio

12-12-2006, 12:48 PM

I dont think Barry's trade value will ever be higher than what it already is

Mr. Body

12-12-2006, 01:06 PM

I dont think Barry's trade value will ever be higher than what it already is

No, but we can't afford to lose him.

mountainballer

12-12-2006, 01:15 PM

I would love to see Gerald Wallace comming to the Spurs, but I doubt it is gonna happen. I don't think we have anything the Bobcats want...

oh yes, we do.
look at the Bobcats big men situation. the contract of Melvin Ely will expire and Brezec will likely opt-out of his (low salary) contract.
both struggle anyhow, so i doubt they want them back at any price. (for sure they don't want Ely back).
so Butler (and his type of contract) might be exactly what they want as a repleacement.
the other question mark for them is Brevin Knight. they have a team option 2007, but if they could find a younger (and cheaper) repleacement, they would be interested. so they might also be interested in Beno.
and they could be quite interested in Scola as well, because Harrington is also a end-of-range model.
the offer of Butler+Beno+Scola rights (+some more players to makes the numbers work, they could include Ely and we include E.Williams).
i see both teams win, as well as the involved players.
Spurs get the starting calibre SF (and Bowen successor) they need. at 24 he still has a lot of upside and he has all the tools Spurs would need. (forget the fact that he's "only" 6-7, with his long hands and elevation he can play like 6-9)
IMO Wallace will love to stay with the Spurs, who could offer him a decent long term contract. (starting at some 6 million for example, this is possible with Williams and Bonner off the books and the salaries of Brent and Horry the year after).
the Bobcats win, because they get 3 players with small contracts and upside (I assume Scola would sign for 3 million / years) who could all turn out to be very helpfull for them as complementary players alongside the core of Felton/Okafor/Morrison.

Mr. Body

12-12-2006, 01:21 PM

mountainballer, if you figure out a way to get Wallace on the Spurs and it happens, I'll buy you a coke.

SenorSpur

12-12-2006, 01:22 PM

This is an extremely frustrating topic to address because many here in the Spurs community have been clamoring for them to address this need. The weaknesses and flaws at this position are being exposed (i.e. recent game vs Lakers). Surely if we've seen this need, the brass must've seen it too - yet they did nothing.

As some have stated already, Barry and Finley are two players of the same ilk - which is too bad for the Spurs. While I'm very pleased with the signing of J. White, the bottom line is that he's not yet ready to contribute this year.

Even more frustrating is that the Spurs had the chance to nab another such player during the offseason (i.e. Jumaine Jones, Matt Barnes who were both available for most of the summer) - yet they did nothing.

Having said all that, I have thought for a couple of years what a wonderful option Gerald Wallace would be for this team. Because the Bobcats owner (Bob Johnson) is such a cheapskate, it's likely Wallace will not be resigned over the summer. I believe his current salary is around 2.5 mil and he'll certainly be looking for a lot more next year. However depending upon what type of long-term salary he's looking for, perhaps the Spurs could swing a package to get him here now.

Another option is Qyntel Woods. Does anyone know if he's on anybody's roster?

Either way to make a move, the Spurs would have to get rid of either Barry or Finley. Somehow though, I just don't see the Spurs adding such a player this season.

Mr. Body

12-12-2006, 01:46 PM

mountainballer

12-12-2006, 01:57 PM

Am I missing something? Wallace is listed as having a player option for next season at $6 million. Has he already opted out of it? If so, it might have been a bad move, considering the subpar year he's been having.

I agree it's unlikely anything happens this year, much less for a higher caliber player like Crash. I'd have to imagine the Bobcats would be happier getting better packages from other teams... but who knows.

you are right. but he might opt out, even if this season isn't looking good. he will get MLE offers at least, even if his season wasn't as good as the one last year. but some teams will blame this to the changed role of Wallace because of the Morrison aquisation.
(in fact Wallace has to play out of position a lot)

so to give up 6 million for a possible 5 years MLE contract isn't such a bad idea.
Wallace will not get back his role on the team next season, so he knows that it will be almost impossible to increase his value in the 2007/08 season.

Mr. Body

12-12-2006, 02:05 PM

Wallace not opting out this season makes him more attractive for the Spurs, but then, less attractive to give up for Charlotte. Maybe they think he's too expensive?

It's an intriguing situation. I wouldn't count on Bob Johnson's cheapskatery here, but that doesn't mean Wallace can't be had. He's not a franchise player, but looks to be a very good supporting one, who may not suit the Bobcats team in the future.

As for what we can give them... I can see Udrih being attractive, especially with Brevin Knight not being worth the Team Option of $4.2 next season.

Butler... Is Primoz Brezec hurt? I haven't been following, but his numbers are definitely down.

Scola. With Okafor and now Sean May coming around, what use is Scola? I'm not sure this makes sense. If anything, they'd need a starting SG they'd be losing with Gerald Wallace, which we aren't offering.

I'd be awfully nice, but we're talking ourselves into believing it could happen. More likely is somebody like Desmond Mason, in case the Hornets fall out of the playoff hunt. He's logging minutes now that Peja and West are out, but he's gone after the year.

TDMVPDPOY

12-12-2006, 02:07 PM

you are right. but he might opt out, even if this season isn't looking good. he will get MLE offers at least, even if his season wasn't as good as the one last year. but some teams will blame this to the changed role of Wallace because of the Morrison aquisation.
(in fact Wallace has to play out of position a lot)

so to give up 6 million for a possible 5 years MLE contract isn't such a bad idea.
Wallace will not get back his role on the team next season, so he knows that it will be almost impossible to increase his value in the 2007/08 season.

i think we should keep scolas rights, see if his willin to accept something around orbs contract, we trade whatever we can for gerald wallace, then i think that other argentinian is of the books, we should sign him, so we got 1/4 of the argy squad on the team......

SenorSpur

12-12-2006, 02:15 PM

you are right. but he might opt out, even if this season isn't looking good. he will get MLE offers at least, even if his season wasn't as good as the one last year. but some teams will blame this to the changed role of Wallace because of the Morrison aquisation.
(in fact Wallace has to play out of position a lot)

so to give up 6 million for a possible 5 years MLE contract isn't such a bad idea.
Wallace will not get back his role on the team next season, so he knows that it will be almost impossible to increase his value in the 2007/08 season.

Good points. His role on that team is forever changed with the addition of Morrison. A team could counter his diminished stats. Even still, I would have to think someone would give him the MLE. After all, he only 24 and there are a lot worse players in the league earning the MLE.

Mr. Body

12-12-2006, 03:12 PM

Good points. His role on that team is forever changed with the addition of Morrison. A team could counter his diminished stats. Even still, I would have to think someone would give him the MLE. After all, he only 24 and there are a lot worse players in the league earning the MLE.

Even with his diminished production I believe Wallace is worth the MLE. He's closer this year to what he did two years ago, although he's still a little slow. Last year he was dynamite (2 blocks, 2 steals/game, great rebounds), and this year I believe he'll still be very good once he gets it back together.

I'm not sure why he can't co-exist with Morrison, who is maybe getting too much playing time anyway. AMMO is a SF, no? And Crash plays as much SG as anything.

Spurs16212

12-13-2006, 12:08 AM

What about giving James White a shot.... I believe we signed him for a reason and from what I heard is a good defender.

Mr. Body

12-13-2006, 12:15 AM

What about giving James White a shot.... I believe we signed him for a reason and from what I heard is a good defender.

He's not even bench caliber yet and is a while away. If we can get a could get a guy like Wallace, say sayonara to big concerns about White - we'd keep developing him but he'd be far less necessary.

Mr. Body

12-13-2006, 12:27 AM

Just for fun -- if they could be had, who would people want the most:

Josh Childress
Mickael Pietrus
Gerald Wallace

THE SIXTH MAN

12-13-2006, 12:30 AM

Just for fun -- if they could be had, who would people want the most:

Josh Childress
Mickael Pietrus
Gerald Wallace

Bob Lanier

12-13-2006, 12:46 AM

Of the three, Pietrus is the best defender, followed by Childress and then Wallace.

Of course, Larry Hughes made an all-defensive team by gambling for his own stats on every possession, so maybe I don't know all that much about basketball.

Mr. Body

12-13-2006, 12:48 AM

They're all known as 'defensive minded' for whatever it's worth on their teams.

Mr. Body

12-13-2006, 12:57 AM

Kyrhapa can rebound and defend on the perimeter very well. And he hustles his butt off...

Hey a few years ago Steve Kerr was the answer....sometimes it's just a little thing that can make a big difference.

We have a gap on roster of certain bodytype of player which Pop counters by putting a shitty 4 guard lineup on the floor....resulting in us getting outrebounded more than anything else....but also posted up at the guard and swing spots....

Kyrhapa can solve that problem well enough to where it's no longer an achilles heel...he'd be getting more minutes if he didn't play for a team which has 35 SF's on it playing ahead of him.

If we can get him for a 2nd, then fantastic. I have no idea what Chicago would want for him. They go him for free in the Thomas-Aldridge trade and are lousy with SFs as it is. I think Scola is worth more and Chicago might think he's not worth a 2nd, but that's what I'd say a player rotting at the end of a bench is worth.

Mr. Body

12-13-2006, 01:12 AM

Found on a Chicago board on Khryapa:

Tribune link. (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/cs-061208bullsbits,1,5073030.story?coll=cs-bulls-headlines)

It's from last weekend.

Inactive for the third straight time Friday, the third-year forward said it's too early to ask for a change of scenery. But Khryapa, who also has five "did not play-coach's decision" designations and talked to coach Scott Skiles earlier this week about his lack of a role, isn't happy.

"I'm frustrated; why not?" Khryapa said. "I'm surprised because I didn't do anything wrong. I played good in preseason. I don't understand why. Just because there are too many guys? It's ridiculous."

Khryapa started 53 games for the Trail Blazers last season. Acquired in the draft-day trade in which the rights to Tyrus Thomas and LaMarcus Aldridge were swapped, Khryapa figured he at least would crack a crowded frontcourt rotation.

"It's killing me inside," Khryapa said. "You do everything everybody else does. And then game time, everybody is playing and you're not. All the coaches and guys say to keep working. I will stay in shape and wait my chance."

I wonder what people would give for him. I've seen a lot of Duhon+Khryapa for Williams+Beno+Scola trades, which I don't like, not least of which because Duhon is very expensive for a back-up point guard and I believe Scola can be more valuable. I'd do a Bonner+2nd rounder, but likely Chicago thinks they can still use him.

TDMVPDPOY

12-13-2006, 01:16 AM

The Truth #6

12-13-2006, 03:01 AM

RC won't do anything until an hour before the trade deadline when everyone is desperate, but then there's only a 50% chance the paperwork will go through in time.

Darkwaters

12-13-2006, 03:28 AM

What about Linton Johnson? There was a little discussion on him and then it died down.

Johnson has been in Byron Scott's doghouse for the last month or so after starting the season as the Hornets' backup PF. Even with injuries to Bobby Jackson, David West and Peja Stojakovic he hasn't seen any increased PT. I actually went to the Cavs/Hornets game yesterday and saw him before. I asked about his PT and he seemed frustrated. Considering the amazing numbers he can put up, I don't know why he isn't playing.

Johnson is 6'8, so he can play either forward position. He is a rebounding machine, but still talented enough to score some points (especially considering hes usually the 4th or 5th option and not a defense's primary concern). He plays solid defense, but is by no means a "lockdown" defender. Hes a very scrappy, hustle type of player. He always is pouring with sweat even after the pre-game shoot-around. He also apparently keeps himself in good shape year-round as he game to training camp more than prepared this year.

The problem with Johnson would be that he makes too little money. Winging a trade that agrees with the CBA might be difficult unless a 3rd team were involved. He is on the last year of his deal, however.

Trading for a player like Gerald Wallace makes more sense in the long-run, but it requires giving up pieces that the Spurs might intend to keep. Plus, some of the scenarios opt for trading Beno with no new PG coming in. Does that mean that Barry is the backup? Vaughn? Wallace would be a long-term solution as they would likely resign him, Johnson would be short-term (expiring contract). Considering that the Spurs have a promising project in James White, does Wallace make sense?

mountainballer

12-13-2006, 03:37 AM

I wonder what people would give for him. I've seen a lot of Duhon+Khryapa for Williams+Beno+Scola trades, which I don't like, not least of which because Duhon is very expensive for a back-up point guard and I believe Scola can be more valuable. I'd do a Bonner+2nd rounder, but likely Chicago thinks they can still use him.

absolutly disagree on Duhon.
but there is no way the Bulls might trade him anyhow.
right now he is to important for Skiles system and at 3 million/year he has a very cap friendly contract. even if he was only playing the back-up PG, IMO he is absolutly worth this number.
(Duhon is just a pipe dream, but i would bet a back-up like him is also the pipe dream of Pop and he would love to spend this 3 million on him)

but the item is Khryapa.
Bonner for him would be a great deal for us and Spurs could also throw in a 2nd rounder (don't we have 3 for the next draft ?)
Bonner isn't very usfull right now, his major qualities are well covered by the other players. Khryapa has almost the same size, but is quicker and the much better defender and rebounder. Bulls might in fact like the shooting ability of Bonner, since none of their bigs has any range.

Darkwaters

12-13-2006, 03:44 AM

I like the idea of Khryapa, but how would that trade work? We would need a 3rd party I'm sure. Bonner makes 2M and Khryapa only makes 1.17M this year. The CBA won't like that trade.

We have our normal 2nd round pick as well as Milwaukee's (Damir Markota trade) and that is all I know of. The Bucks pick could be reasonably high, but the original Spurs pick will likely be pretty worthless to most teams.

mountainballer

12-13-2006, 03:49 AM

Trading for a player like Gerald Wallace makes more sense in the long-run, but it requires giving up pieces that the Spurs might intend to keep. Plus, some of the scenarios opt for trading Beno with no new PG coming in. Does that mean that Barry is the backup? Vaughn? Wallace would be a long-term solution as they would likely resign him, Johnson would be short-term (expiring contract). Considering that the Spurs have a promising project in James White, does Wallace make sense?

if the Spurs can bring in Wallace, it would be crazy not to give him 30+ minutes. (which he would play at SG and SF).
so Barry (and even Manu) would play more minutes at PG. (where he is more efficient than Beno anyhow)
noone knows if White will ever be a usefull rotation player, so we can't think of him being a future starter. Wallace is a starting calibre player right now and he will be another 6 years from now. so it is not either or.
(in other words: Spurs will have the need for a starting SF soon and will also have the need for an athletic back-up wing. White will likely be the latter, maybe the future 6th man, and btw. don't forget that currentls they are both 24)

mountainballer

12-13-2006, 03:51 AM

Darkwaters

12-13-2006, 04:03 AM

Bulls could throw in Barrett (who they don't use) and the numbers work. (Barrett would then likely be waived by the Spurs).

The Spurs would be unable to accept that trade because they don't have the roster spots. We would have to waive one of our players and then reclaim them (like Orlando did with Bo Outlaw last year). I'm not sure how that works either. In otherwards, if the Spurs waived James White, could another team not technically acquire him before the Spurs were able to reclaim him? That would be a significant (and foolish) loss.

If the Spurs would be capable of acquiring Wallace I think it would make a lot of sense. He is a solid player already that can still grow. If hes unavailable then I think a Khryapa trade makes sense as well. Bonner is a pointless addition to the Spurs, but might actually serve a purpose in Chi-town.

SCdac

12-13-2006, 06:45 AM

What about Linton Johnson? There was a little discussion on him and then it died down.

I'm a fan of Linton Johnson as well, pretty much the exact type of player we need. Funny that you mention him, because he was a Spur in 04-05 (only played a few games), maybe you already knew that... Would have been nice to keep him around, but, we can't hold on to them all. If we could get him for cheap, I wouldn't mind at all. Couldn't be any worse than Eric Williams.

Bruno

12-13-2006, 08:22 AM

The Spurs would be unable to accept that trade because they don't have the roster spots. We would have to waive one of our players and then reclaim them (like Orlando did with Bo Outlaw last year). I'm not sure how that works either. In otherwards, if the Spurs waived James White, could another team not technically acquire him before the Spurs were able to reclaim him? That would be a significant (and foolish) loss.

Other teams can acquire him before Spurs thrus waivers.

The best thing to do is to have a third team with a roster spot who take Barrett.

The CBA allow to a team over the cap to get a player with a minimum salary without sending something in return like a trade exception or another player (it's called minimu salary exception).

Darkwaters

12-13-2006, 09:02 AM

Linton Johnson could probably be had for cheap if hes in the doghouse (JR Smith was traded as a toss in this summer in the Tyson Chandler trade). Johnson has a very small contract though which might make the numbers a little difficult. But with a 3rd team, Bonner could be swapped for him. The Hornets have a slew of SFs on their squad including Desmond Mason, Rasual Butler, Marcus "Marquinhos" Vinicius and obviously Peja Stojakovic. Linton Johnson is struggling to find minutes in that mix. The Hornets might be interested in a 2 guard in exchange (since there is no true 2 guard on the whole team).

AFBlue

12-13-2006, 09:42 AM

Just for fun -- if they could be had, who would people want the most:

Josh Childress
Mickael Pietrus
Gerald Wallace

Personally, I like Josh Childress. I know he's got the funky release on his jumpshot and he's not as athletic as advertised when he came out of college, but he's a hustle player, can be a gritty defender, and won't disappoint on the offensive end.

The other two are good, I just wonder about Pietrus' consistency and Gerald Wallace's jumpshot.

Mr. Body

12-13-2006, 10:27 AM

1. I'd jump all over a Gerald Wallace trade, especially if Charlotte would think of the scraps trade mountainballer was suggesting (which it'd have to be). Udrih and Butler are replaceable, Scola is expendable, and Wallace is starter-caliber and would get heavy minutes off the bench before moving up in a year. The guy's 24 and has nasty abilities.

James White could still be developed. No problem there. He's low-risk anyway.

2. I don't get the guy above asking if a Bonner+second for Khryapa was crack-induced. It makes sense in theory.

The Spurs have 3 second rounders ONLY IF Chicago ends the season with one of the top 9 records, otherwise the pick reverts (and we never get one from them). As it stands, I don't see them as a top 9 team record-wise.

3. Linton Johnson would be decent to have on the bench at this point, but do we think he'd ever get playoff time? While we're dreaming, I'd like to dream about a guy who can play in the postseason.

Darkwaters

12-13-2006, 10:33 AM

Chicago is in the east. If they turn it around then they will have an easier schedule than any western team. But the Bulls need to turn it around soon.

Espn's trade machine is online now, try out your trades to see if they are legal.

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/trademachine

bdictjames

12-13-2006, 10:53 AM

Malik Rose??

mountainballer

12-13-2006, 01:13 PM

3. Linton Johnson would be decent to have on the bench at this point, but do we think he'd ever get playoff time? While we're dreaming, I'd like to dream about a guy who can play in the postseason.

agree, Johnson just doesn't have the upside to ever be even a decent back-up SF, IMO he is the typical third stringer.
we are not talking about a player who helps out a bit and averages less than 10 minutes in the regular season and isn't used in the PO.
Spurs should go for a player who has either the potential to be the successor of Bowen as the starting SF (like Wallace), or the potential to be a versatile back-up forward, who can play (and defend) at the 3 and 4 (like Khryapa). either player would be helpfull right now, since we can pretty much write off E.Williams and since we can not be sure that Finley and Horry will turn things around and start to make a significant impact.

Mr. Body

12-13-2006, 01:28 PM

mountainballer, I think we're in agreement pretty much.

This team needs a major overhaul this summer. Not a blow up, naturally, since the Big Three remain along with Bowen as the core starters, but nearly everything else will need to be ripped out and replaced. Sure, an Elson and Barry here and there might be kept...

Why not overhaul this year? The team is clearly stable enough to manage an erruption on the bench. We're not trading Horry, Finley, or any of the greybeards, but we have some tinker pieces. I'd like to not trade Barry - he's been amazing - but why not try hard to get that vital piece for the future, who may pay dividends this year? Why not try to pull a Childress or a Wallace when he's down?

Just imagine going into the '07 draft with a clear picture of our SF future and being able to look at other positions in the draft.

velik_m

12-13-2006, 01:51 PM

AFBlue

12-13-2006, 01:54 PM

Just imagine going into the '07 draft with a clear picture of our SF future and being able to look at other positions in the draft.

Like Shooting Guard. I know Ginobili is unbelieveable on the court, but he's damn near guaranteed to miss 10-15 games with various ailments b/c of the way he plays. I'd like to see a good all-around SG to back up Ginobili, which may give the Spurs the leverage to deal Barry and his expiring (07-08) $6 mil contract.

Mr. Body

12-13-2006, 02:27 PM

PHAT TONY: Yes. Right now we're pinned to looking for SFs, but imagine looking at SGs and even PGs.

Undersized point guards or even point guards in general tend to drop in deep big-man drafts. Imagine nabbing a Rondo or a Marcus Williams type late in the draft and then going for a great scorer early in the 2nd - a Arenas or Redd wannabe.

mountainballer

12-13-2006, 04:17 PM

don't get me wrong, of course the draft is vital for every franchise, no matter if lottery or a team like the Spurs, that usually picks late.
but the current needs won't be covered by a draft pick. (or if they did, it would be a bit of an accident).
Spurs have the most not signed draft picks of all teams in the league (5 right now), it is obvious that the Spurs draft philosophy is different to most other teams.
we will see at least 7 new players on the roster that starts the 2008/09 season, but considering the window of opportunity, most will be veterans. (I'm not talking 35 years old veterans, I mean players with some seasons under their belt)
thoses players can only be aquired via trade or free agency. Spurs will prefer the trade IMO, free agency didn't work that well lately (if we are honestly evaluating the signings). they won't go for a star player, but for one of thoses good players with adequate contracts. (somewhere in the 5-7 million area).

btw. something completly different, but now that the draft 2007 was mentioned. I know SG isn't our first need but
Rudy Fernandez
will finally be in the draft 2007 and (hopefully) not withdraw again. he is projected to be picked late in the first round.
if he falls to Spurs area: PICK HIM - PICK HIM - PICK HIM.
i watched him for quite some years, but now that he plays his first Euroleague season I can see more of him.
so I can tell you: it's exactly like some years ago, when Manu played Euroleague. there are so many similarities.
(in his first 6 games he was averaging 15.3 points in just 22 minutes, shooting 66% FG!)
he has a contract till 2008 (buyout is 2 million $ if he wants to get out before 2008), Spurs could easily wait. (he will be 23 then)
again: Fernandez is GREAT GREAT GREAT.
(mark my words, he will be as good as Manu)

Darkwaters

12-13-2006, 04:27 PM

Rudy Fernandez is a good player and I would love for the Spurs to pick him up. As I remember he has a pretty diverse skill-set which will make him very desirable to teams these days. He has the ball handling skills of a PG but actually plays the 3 for his current team. Somebody that is trying to play a diverse style of small-ball (a la the Suns) might be interested. Hes probably going to struggle defensively until he adds some more weight and muscle, but I really would like to pick him up too! Parker, Ginobili, Butler, "Flight" White, Mahinmi and Rudy Fernandez would be an absolutely amazing future for this franchise.

Mr. Body

12-13-2006, 05:14 PM

A guy like Ponkrashov might be available late, too, though he might be too unathletic for the NBA.

Mr.Bottomtooth

12-13-2006, 05:45 PM

3-WAY TRADE
SPURS RECEIVE:
JEFF FOSTER
DANNY GRANGER
RODNEY CARNEY

76ERS RECEIVE:
MICHAEL FINLEY
ERIC WILLIAMS
JAMAAL TINSLEY
STEPHEN JACKSON

PACERS RECEIVE:
JACQUE VAUGHN
MATT BONNER
ALLEN IVERSON
RIGHTS TO LUIS SCOLA

I dont care about the other teams. It's a good trade for us!

Bruno

12-13-2006, 06:04 PM

Rudy Fernandez will finally be in the draft 2007 and (hopefully) not withdraw again.

I really like Fernandez too and I think that he will been awesome pick. BTW, he scored 36 points :spin in a game three days ago.

Fernandez will be automaticly in the draft this year. Internatinal players born in 1985 (like Fernandez, Splitter or my boy Bokolo) are like college seniors : they are in the draft without needing to declare themselves and if they aren't drafted, they become nba FA.

Bruno

12-13-2006, 06:10 PM

mountainballer

12-13-2006, 06:27 PM

I really like Fernandez too and I think that he will been awesome pick. BTW, he scored 36 points :spin in a game three days ago.

Fernandez will be automaticly in the draft this year. Internatinal players born in 1985 (like Fernandez, Splitter or my boy Bokolo) are like college seniors : they are in the draft without needing to declare themselves and if they aren't drafted, they become nba FA.

Bokolo. yes!
a bit undersized for the NBA, but could develope into a poor man's Dwyane Wade.
a typical 2nd round pick IMO.
Spurs have all those 2nd round picks (and they for sure know him, otherwise Tony can tell something about him) if he is there they should get him.

Cant_Be_Faded

12-13-2006, 06:34 PM

Everyone has been saying this forever. Each year since the rules change has been tougher and tougher, more teams exposing this flaw in our team. Each offseason most people on this board know that this is what we need to address. Each offseason the front office has done nothing to address it.

All in the name of keeping us under that salary cap. Somewhere, Marcus Bryant is laughing right now.

Bruno

12-13-2006, 06:45 PM

Bokolo. yes!
a bit undersized for the NBA, but could develope into a poor man's Dwyane Wade.
a typical 2nd round pick IMO.
Spurs have all those 2nd round picks (and they for sure know him, otherwise Tony can tell something about him) if he is there they should get him.

Bokolo plays PG for a little more than one year.
He has still limited PG skills and isn't the most efficient player on the offensive end (poor finisher around the rim and poor jumpshot) but he is a great defender and a sick athlete. He isn't starting material or first round material but I think that he can be a good backup PG for Spurs by bringing some energy and defense from the bench.

mountainballer

12-13-2006, 07:07 PM

Bokolo plays PG for a little more than one year.
He has still limited PG skills and isn't the most efficient player on the offensive end (poor finisher around the rim and poor jumpshot) but he is a great defender and a sick athlete. He isn't starting material or first round material but I think that he can be a good backup PG for Spurs by bringing some energy and defense from the bench.

well, so we can agree that we use the first rounder for Fernandez, one second rounder for Bokolo and the other second rounder for Marc Gasol.

Bokolo
Fernandez
Sanikidze
Scola - Mahinmi
Gasol - Javtokas

looks like a well rounded farm team

Bruno

12-13-2006, 07:31 PM

well, so we can agree that we use the first rounder for Fernandez, one second rounder for Bokolo and the other second rounder for Marc Gasol.

I don't like Marc Gasol. I think that he is just a big white stiff who can be great in europe but who will never succeed in the nba. Maybe Spurs should draft a athletic SF/PF from a college with their second second rounder.

Anyway, the draft isn't tomorrow and a lot of things will change. The 07 draft seems to be very week, I jsut hope Spurs will find a quality player with Spurs first rounder and Bucks second rounder who should be around 35th-40th. :)

Darkwaters

12-13-2006, 08:32 PM

I tend to disagree. This is probably going to be a pretty deep draft compared to last year (and even years prior). Greg Oden, Joakim Noah, Kevin Durant, "Big Baby" Glenn Davis, Tiago Splitter and maybe some guys like Chase Budinger and Tyler Hansborough as well. That is a lot of "impact" guys that will take high picks. The lottery picks will be much more significant and therefore all the picks down the line will be more respectable.

Cant_Be_Faded

12-13-2006, 08:39 PM

Chase Budinger
rofl rofl rofl x 12

Mr. Body

12-13-2006, 08:54 PM

The 07 draft seems to be very week

Huhn? For what sport? Major League Soccer?

Bruno

12-13-2006, 08:56 PM

I tend to disagree.

Me too. :)

I wanted to say : "The 07 draft seems to be very deep".

Stupid keyboard.
:spin

SenorSpur

12-14-2006, 01:22 AM

I find it rather amusing that ever since the depature of SJax the Spurs have never been able to adequately replace him. This has only fueled the swirling discussion on this board about locating an athletic swingman.

Mr. Body

12-14-2006, 01:31 AM

Chase Budinger
rofl rofl rofl x 12

Have you seen him play? Try it.

AFBlue

12-14-2006, 06:26 AM

and since this thread has turned into a pipe dream thread, Maggette's agent has just request a trade.
A trade like Maggette + korolev for Barry + Williams + Scola + a first round pick is a nice pipe dream. I guess that Maggette wants to start, Spurs can have a Parker/Bowen/Maggette/Duncan/Elson lineup with Manu as 6th man.

I think alot of people overrate Maggette, because his production doesn't match the hype. But, I think this is one case where it could. Maggette needs to be in the right situation with the right coach and he'd be a real stud.

The problem is that he's constantly overrated by other GM's as well and would certainly fetch more than Barry + cap space....

Like you said, "pipe dream", but it's one I'll share with you.

Mr. Body

12-14-2006, 11:03 AM

Do you guys really think:

A) Corey Maggette is worth $7 million this year, plus two more years ending above $8 mill?

B) The Spurs would ever pay this?

mountainballer

12-14-2006, 11:38 AM

The problem is that he's constantly overrated by other GM's as well and would certainly fetch more than Barry + cap space....

the reason why he is "overrated" is the fact that his contract is one of the more reasonable guard signings (for a boarderline all-star) of the last seasons.
7 million/year for a 27 years old player, who is constantly producing sounds nice to any GM (and coach).
in fact his 14 PPG and 6.4 RPG in just 25 minutes are a nice return of investment.
Maggette could (would) start for most teams in this league and as a starter he is a 20 PPG player.

I don't know if he would fit with the Spurs, but of course I wouldn't sneeze if he was on the Spurs roster.
btw. IMO he is not as bad as a defender as some mentioned. if fact he is- or could be -pretty good. in the right system he might quite show also qualities in this area.
when he is healthy, Clippers will get some quality offers for him.
of course much more than Barry, even if they are for sure interested in Brent, since they are so desperate for some shooting. (atrocious 29% 3PT and last in the league in this category)
but that's it, since the Spurs won't offer Manu and don't have the high picks, there is no package the Clippers will like.

but out of Maggette, there are some other players at the Clippers roster, who are quite interesting.
Korolev is totally raw, but in two or three years he could develope into a very special player.
IMO James Singleton is an interesting player. he is not a special talent, but i have seen some games at TV when he played in Italy. he is definitly a monster on the boards and could also play some SF. (even if he is more of a PF).
I don't know why the Clippers don't use him more. he might be one of those late bloomers and could be as a foreward, what Elson turned out to be as center.
he has a small contract, so if we could get him on the cheap side, he would be low risk. his rebounding and hustle would be quite usefull in some matchups.
(don't get me wrong, I don't think that he is the answer to the Spurs SF needs, I just wanted to point out a player who I think is far under the radar)
Clippers might like Bonner and his shooting ability. both teams would get rid of a rare used player and get a player who would adress more of the teams needs. (Clippers would have to include some additional salary to get the deal done)
a great deal would be: Bonner + Scola rights for Singleton + Korolev
(and this deal works by the numbers)

AFBlue

12-14-2006, 11:39 AM

Do you guys really think:

A) Corey Maggette is worth $7 million this year, plus two more years ending above $8 mill?

B) The Spurs would ever pay this?

A) Not as a bench player on his current team, but given the right situation...yes

B) No, that's why it's a pipe dream.

z0sa

12-14-2006, 11:44 AM

Corey Maggette on then Spurs would be... insane. He could be a 20 point scorer easy as a starter.

AFBlue

12-14-2006, 11:45 AM

the reason why he is "overrated" is the fact that his contract is one of the more reasonable guard signings (for a boarderline all-star) of the last seasons.
7 million/year for a 27 years old player, who is constantly producing sounds nice to any GM (and coach).
in fact his 14 PPG and 6.4 RPG in just 25 minutes are a nice return of investment.
Maggette could (would) start for most teams in this league and as a starter he is a 20 PPG player.

I don't know if he would fit with the Spurs, but of course I wouldn't sneeze if he was on the Spurs roster.
btw. IMO he is not as bad as a defender as some mentioned. if fact he is- or could be -pretty good. in the right system he might quite show also qualities in this area.
when he is healthy, Clippers will get some quality offers for him.
of course much more than Barry, even if they are for sure interested in Brent, since they are so desperate for some shooting. (atrocious 29% 3PT and last in the league in this category)
but that's it, since the Spurs won't offer Manu and don't have the high picks, there is no package the Clippers will like.

but out of Maggette, there are some other players at the Clippers roster, who are quite interesting.
Korolev is totally raw, but in two or three years he could develope into a very special player.
IMO James Singleton is an interesting player. he is not a special talent, but i have seen some games at TV when he played in Italy. he is definitly a monster on the boards and could also play some SF. (even if he is more of a PF).
I don't know why the Clippers don't use him more. he might be one of those late bloomers and could be as a foreward, what Elson turned out to be as center.
he has a small contract, so if we could get him on the cheap side, he would be low risk. his rebounding and hustle would be quite usefull in some matchups.
(don't get me wrong, I don't think that he is the answer to the Spurs SF needs, I just wanted to point out a player who I think is far under the radar)
Clippers might like Bonner and his shooting ability. both teams would get rid of a rare used player and get a player who would adress more of the teams needs. (Clippers would have to include some additional salary to get the deal done)
a great deal would be: Bonner + Scola rights for Singleton + Korolev
(and this deal works by the numbers)

I think we're in agreement on the player that Maggette could be if he were in a different situation.

Not sure I agree with the rest of your post. Singeleton is nice, but Korolev was a mistake and should've never been a lottery pick.

If you want to go with long, lanky foreign forward, I'd go Ilyasova of the Bucks, or Kryhapa (previously mentioned in thread).

Also disagree with them wanting Bonner. They signed Tim Thomas to be their big, outside shooter.

mountainballer

12-14-2006, 11:55 AM

Singeleton is nice, but Korolev was a mistake and should've never been a lottery pick.

same was often said about Biedrins the last two years.
of course Korolev could turn out to be a bust. but i would definitly gamble on him. he is 19. I think he is a potential Biedrins story.

If you want to go with long, lanky foreign forward, I'd go Ilyasova of the Bucks, or Kryhapa (previously mentioned in thread).

Also disagree with them wanting Bonner. They signed Tim Thomas to be their big, outside shooter.

Khryapa was the reason for my first post in this thread, he would be a great solution.
Ilyasova would also be interesting, if the asking price is right. he isn't that raw like Korolev, but I still guess Korolev has much more upside. we will see in two years.
you are right about TT, almost forgot him.

Bruno

12-14-2006, 12:00 PM

Mr. Body

12-14-2006, 12:28 PM

One thing to consider about Korolev is that Clippers haven't picked his option for the third year of his rookie contract. He will be an unrestricted free agent next summer. If Spurs are high on him they can sign him this summer.

The problem is Korolev is expensive as a project. That's the trouble with drafting a project in the lottery, if you're a cheap-ass team. It was time to fish or cut bait and they decided to cut out. I have no idea what Korolev's future in the league is. If he wants to stay in the NBA, then he'll probably be cheap, but he may just as soon return to Europe or Russia and hone his game there. Apparently he was athletic enough for the NBA, but just wasn't looking good enough, or at least ready. But neither does Ilyasova and Milwaukee is taking it slower with him.

At some point I'll have to review the Draft boards and see who the Clippers could have had instead of him.

AFBlue

12-14-2006, 01:31 PM

One thing to consider about Korolev is that Clippers haven't picked his option for the third year of his rookie contract. He will be an unrestricted free agent next summer. If Spurs are high on him they can sign him this summer.

And they will! Book it! Just kidding...

Honestly, you have to wonder about a kid that couldn't even garner a qualifying offer from his team.

Mr. Body

12-14-2006, 02:50 PM

Corey Maggette on then Spurs would be... insane. He could be a 20 point scorer easy as a starter.

Could be... maybe not. He's also a strong rebounder at the position.

But other than costing way too much, he's also very injury prone, having gotten to 70 games only in two seasons of his career, one of them his rookie season in 1999-2000. He only played in 32 games last year and is already down this one.

phxspurfan

12-14-2006, 03:43 PM

Maggette would be injured in 2 weeks and be useless in the long run.

Spurminator

12-14-2006, 03:58 PM

Maggette would be a nice option not for his scoring but for his rebounding.

Bob Lanier

12-14-2006, 04:08 PM

If we want to pay him that much to be a rebounder, can't we get better options else where, and for much cheaper??
:tu

Pop would have an aneurysm if Maggette were on his team getting lost on defense and chucking like a madman.

Mr. Body

12-14-2006, 04:28 PM

he also hits most of his freethrows, so let's go back to a 60% ft shooter like Pietrus or GWallace.

mountainballer

12-15-2006, 06:46 AM

One thing to consider about Korolev is that Clippers haven't picked his option for the third year of his rookie contract. He will be an unrestricted free agent next summer. If Spurs are high on him they can sign him this summer.

that's a bit strange indeed. remember there were rumors that the Spurs might not pick the option for Beno, but then they did abd one used argument was, that it would also hurt Beno's trade value if they didn't.
this might indicate that the Clippers already tried to trade Korolev and failed and now just give up on him.
I don't know, maybe I'm overrating him.
(or just hope that he will break out one day, because I like this type of player he might be)

At some point I'll have to review the Draft boards and see who the Clippers could have had instead of him.

there you will find a lot of interesting players. (interesting for the Clippers or any other team, I'm only considering talent, not team needs).

Danny Granger, Gerald Greene, Hakim Warrick, David Lee, Monta Ellis, Ryan Gomes.

my problem as a Spurs fan is, that I'm am not on the Mahinmi bandwagon and really doubt that it was the often commented genious find in the Tony-Manu mold again.
so when looking at the 2005 draft board I also see some players Spurs should have picked instead of Ian.
I fear in summer 2005 the Spurs were so impressed by Amare, that they thought of finding a player with similar athletic abilities who will once be able to guard Amare.
we could also have Lee, Ellis, Gomes, Turiaf (the better version of Butler IMO) on the roster.
hell, back then I was sure the Spurs should go for a french player, but I was thinking of Milkael Gelabale.
(even if he is struggling in his first weeks with the Sonics, especially because of Wilkins surprising good play who cuts Gelabales minutes)

Bruno

12-15-2006, 08:41 AM

that's a bit strange indeed. remember there were rumors that the Spurs might not pick the option for Beno, but then they did abd one used argument was, that it would also hurt Beno's trade value if they didn't.
this might indicate that the Clippers already tried to trade Korolev and failed and now just give up on him.

Beno's case was quite different :
- Beno has proved that he can contribute in the nba. He has been a quality backup in his first year while Korolev has shown nothing (except a preseason
game where he has well played).
- Beno's option was $1.7M, Korolev's option was $2.7M. Clippers haven't picked his option because of the luxury tax too.

But I agree with you that it's little strange. Korolev is really young (19 years old) and has a lot of upside. He should have been atrocious in practice or he should have a bad work ethic.

my problem as a Spurs fan is, that I'm am not on the Mahinmi bandwagon and really doubt that it was the often commented genious find in the Tony-Manu mold again.
so when looking at the 2005 draft board I also see some players Spurs should have picked instead of Ian.
I fear in summer 2005 the Spurs were so impressed by Amare, that they thought of finding a player with similar athletic abilities who will once be able to guard Amare.
we could also have Lee, Ellis, Gomes, Turiaf (the better version of Butler IMO) on the roster.
hell, back then I was sure the Spurs should go for a french player, but I was thinking of Milkael Gelabale.
(even if he is struggling in his first weeks with the Sonics, especially because of Wilkins surprising good play who cuts Gelabales minutes)

I disagree with you on that.

Of course, Spurs can regret to have missed Ellis.

I still take Mahinmi over Lee, Gomes and Turiaf because :

- Lee, Gomes, and Turiaf have been good in nba but they are too limited players because of their skillsets/body. They are just good role players. Mahinmi on the other hand has a lot of upside.

- Mahinmi is 3 or 4 years younger than Lee, Gomes and Turiaf. It's way too soon to judge him, he is just 20 years old. A lot of people that have seen him think he has something special. I've realy liked what I've seen from him but he still very raw : with more waight and more experience he cna become a very good nba player.

- Even if Mahinmi is a bust, I won't really regret Lee, Gomes, or Turiaf. You can find this kind of players (PFs who are good role players but not dominant) eash year in the second round of the draft. In the 06 draft Leon Powe and Paul Millsap are second rounder who will be as good (or better) than Lee, Gomes and Turiaf. You can find them too in DLeague like Chuck Hayes last year, this year Justin Williams seems to be a good candidate to have some success in nba. You can find them in europe too like Udonis Haslem who played in France.

And I don't see the link between Turiaf and Butler, they are very different players.

my2sons

12-15-2006, 09:23 AM

ok according to whott we won't get by dallas, houston or la without a long three. hmm i'll stick to pop's assessment of the team and its needs, he's done pretty well over the years.

ManuTastic

12-15-2006, 09:57 AM

Nice discussion of a serious need for SA. I know a lot less about these guys than you do, but a few comments:
-Gerald Wallace looks like a good guy to have around. If he could be pried loose, I'd do it.
-Desmond Mason looked pretty darn good last night; I covet him too.
-SJax is, ahem, available.

Mr. Body

12-15-2006, 10:19 AM

I'm not on the Mahinmi bandwaggon, either. If he ever develops into a decent rotation guy, much less a starter, it may be a couple years from now, even three, four, or five. Do we honestly think Duncan and Manu will still be at their peaks three years from now? They'll still be around, but we'll hopefully be focusing the offense largely in other areas with Parker and newcomers.

I'd take David Lee right now in a heartbeat over the promise of Ian Mahinmi. Here's a guy who could get 8-10 rebounds for us off the bench, hustle hard, and play solid defense RIGHT NOW, plus has the capacity to expand his game.

If they had to do it over, I also think the Spurs would take Lee over Mahinmi. We're all surprised by the guy and how good he is. Maybe not a full-time starter (but probably could), but an invaluable addition to any team. I'm not saying they blew it, but NYK's drafting has been superior to ours in the last few years and, honestly, I hope the Spurs spy on their draft room a little this summer the way NJN used to spy on ours to steal Krstic. Mahinmi is such a project, there's no reason to think anybody would have drafted him this past year, either, much less us having to burn a late first for him in 2005. He'd still be on the board this summer.

It may work out in the end, but I doubt we'll see great things from Mahinmi, and if or when we ever do, it'll be for the next generation of Spurs teams, not this one. That generation of Spurs teams will probably be getting higher draft picks, anyway, once Tim is done.

mountainballer

12-15-2006, 10:57 AM

If they had to do it over, I also think the Spurs would take Lee over Mahinmi. We're all surprised by the guy and how good he is. Maybe not a full-time starter (but probably could), but an invaluable addition to any team.

agree on Lee, noone calls him a future all-star, but he isn't a player you can find that late in every draft.

Mahinmi is such a project, there's no reason to think anybody would have drafted him this past year, either, much less us having to burn a late first for him in 2005. He'd still be on the board this summer.

that is also my point. it was not a mistake to pick Mahinmi, the point is, that the Spurs used their 1st rounder without any need. they could have easily aquired an additional 2nd rounder to use it on Mahinmi. Mahinmi would have been exactly the kind of pick, Spurs usually draft in the 2nd round and leave in Europe for 4 or 5 years and patiently watch what happens.

- Mahinmi is 3 or 4 years younger than Lee, Gomes and Turiaf. It's way too soon to judge him, he is just 20 years old. A lot of people that have seen him think he has something special. I've realy liked what I've seen from him but he still very raw : with more waight and more experience he cna become a very good nba player.

that's the point. Mahinmi is already 20 years old. I know, at 20 a player still has time to develope, but even if a player starts late to play organized basektball, you expect a certain level at 20.
since the Spurs drafted him 1 1/2 years ago I tried to watch games he is in. this year, since he plays Euroleague it is easier to see him play (it's only limited minutes, thuogh). sometimes he looks so lost, that I got the feeling he just doesn't have enough game. the signs of developement, that could make you think he will be a good player in the NBA are not there IMO.
(I don't want to say he will not make it to the NBA, just that he won't be the steal some expected)

And I don't see the link between Turiaf and Butler, they are very different players.

I was thinking of which big man I would prefer on our roster. I just like Turiaf more and think he would make more impact with the Spurs than Butler, even if he is a PF (who can be used as center).

Bruno

12-15-2006, 11:28 AM

Here's a guy who could get 8-10 rebounds for us off the bench, hustle hard, and play solid defense RIGHT NOW,

Lee isn't a good defender and that's the main reason why Jeffries has taken his starting spo.

Mahinmi is such a project, there's no reason to think anybody would have drafted him this past year, either, much less us having to burn a late first for him in 2005. He'd still be on the board this summer.

Wrong.
Mahinmi has stayed in the draft because Spurs have said him that they will draft him with their first round pick. Mahinmi wanted a guaranteed contract to saty in the draft.
And he would have been a first rounder in the 06 draft given that he si a better project than Pecherov.

that's the point. Mahinmi is already 20 years old. I know, at 20 a player still has time to develope, but even if a player starts late to play organized basektball, you expect a certain level at 20.

Disagree.
You had to consider that :
- Big men take longer to develop.
- Mahinmi has started to play BB at 15.
- Mahinmi's body isn't ready.

tried to watch games he is in. this year, since he plays Euroleague it is easier to see him play (it's only limited minutes, thuogh). sometimes he looks so lost, that I got the feeling he just doesn't have enough game.

Mahinmi has has a really difficult start this year and doesn't play at his real level for the moment : he has lost his confidence and his game. He has struggled a lot for three month but he has been quite good otherwise since Spurs have drafted him. He has played slighty better for few weeks but he is now injured (he will be out 3 weeks).

Mr. Body

12-15-2006, 11:49 AM

Wrong.
Mahinmi has stayed in the draft because Spurs have said him that they will draft him with their first round pick. Mahinmi wanted a guaranteed contract to saty in the draft.
And he would have been a first rounder in the 06 draft given that he si a better project than Pecherov.

I know he stayed in the draft only if he would be a first round pick. That still doesn't make it a good pick. Comparing him to Pecherov is a little silly. One of those two had a good showing in the French Leagues and the other only looked decent only as a project. Which one was a total reach for the Spurs? There's no reason to assume Mahinmi would have been drafted last year in the first round - look through and tell me what team would have dropped a first on him. Which team would have promised him a first, had he declared?

As for this summer, there's no way he'd be first round talent, not for a big man with the big man depth this draft will have.

The only team that ever would have promised him a first round pick was the Spurs. When he's old enough he would have become automatically eligible, are we even sure he'd be worth a draft pick then?

The point is, we took a risk on a guy like Mahinmi that might pay dividends down the road. If he's a good back up center, great. If he's a decent starter, fantastic. But we consistently toss our first round picks into the air and never use them on the present. The international pipeline has completely dried up for us since Beno came over, and he wasn't the swell prospect we hoped him to be.

It's hard to look back and expect people to see what we know in hindsight, but sticking with drafting international has hurt us, since now we're old and haggard, even if we're playing well at the moment.

We keep punting our first round picks, I believe, because we're not good at scouting domestic talent. Isiah is (for example). If we could trade Mahinmi's rights for David Lee, I have to think in a heartbeat we'd do it. He'd be absolutely dynamite off the bench. And really, I can only hope Mahinmi is as good in his prime (what, 10 years from now?) as Lee is right now.

Mahinmi has has a really difficult start this year and doesn't play at his real level for the moment : he has lost his confidence and his game. He has struggled a lot for three month but he has been quite good otherwise since Spurs have drafted him. He has played slighty better for few weeks but he is now injured (he will be out 3 weeks).

Not very cheering, is it? I wish the best for him, but man could we use a David Lee or Renaldo Balkman right about now; we'll need that guy even more next year, when hopefully we don't draft some foreign project again. If we do so, we're dead.

Bruno

12-15-2006, 12:37 PM

Comparing him to Pecherov is a little silly. One of those two had a good showing in the French Leagues and the other only looked decent only as a project.

Pecherov was a 11/6 player in the fench league, Mahinmi was a 10/5 player. Mahinmi is too one year younger than Pecherov.

As for this summer, there's no way he'd be first round talent, not for a big man with the big man depth this draft will have.

Joel Freeland was a first rounder and Mahinmi has shown ten times more thing than him while being only 3 month older.

And really, I can only hope Mahinmi is as good in his prime (what, 10 years from now?) as Lee is right now.

That's your hope but Mahinmi has the upside to be better than Lee.

Not very cheering, is it?

Not very cheering for somebody who doesn't follow him closely. Mahinmi strugling is quite logical given what has happened to him for three month.

man could we use a David Lee or Renaldo Balkman right about now; we'll need that guy even more next year

Spurs can sign Scola. In your own words : "He'd be absolutely dynamite off the bench." The only thing Lee dos better than Scola is rebounding while Scola is a way better offensive player.

when hopefully we don't draft some foreign project again. If we do so, we're dead.

I don't what you have with foreigners but Spurs have dome a great job with foreigner. Manu, Parker, Scola are great picks. Beno and Javtokas are good picks. It's too soon to say for Mahinmi and Sanikidze. The only "bust" is Karaulov and it was the 58th pick.

mountainballer

12-15-2006, 12:54 PM

Spurs can sign Scola. In your own words : "He'd be absolutely dynamite off the bench." The only thing Lee dos better than Scola is rebounding while Scola is a way better offensive player.

this isn't a good comparison.
and we know Spurs can not just go out and sign Scola. they have to find an agreement and it is very unlikely that this will ever happen.
as a first rounder Lee would have been in the rookie scale (and without buyout issues), so he would be on the roster since 2005.

I don't what you have with foreigners but Spurs have dome a great job with foreigner. Manu, Parker, Scola are great picks. Beno and Javtokas are good picks. It's too soon to say for Mahinmi and Sanikidze. The only "bust" is Karaulov and it was the 58th pick.

of course Spurs did better than any team in drafting foreigners with Tony and Manu. that is where all the reputation comes from.
and if they would have worked out a signing of Scola it would be even better.
but this led to an overrating of the Spurs scouting, by the fans and the media. there still is no guarrantee that every pick turns out to be a find.

Mr. Body

12-15-2006, 01:06 PM

Lee is also much cheaper than Scola and a far, far better rebounder, something we vitally need.

My point with Mahinmi in '05 is that no one was knocking on his door back then and may not have been this year or next. But it's understood - he's a decent prospect. I'm just not happy with taking long routes to try and find foreign players when there are gems making it through every year domestically.

I don't what you have with foreigners but Spurs have dome a great job with foreigner. Manu, Parker, Scola are great picks. Beno and Javtokas are good picks. It's too soon to say for Mahinmi and Sanikidze. The only "bust" is Karaulov and it was the 58th pick.

Manu and Parker made the reputation for the Spurs' international scouting. Stellar picks. Nothing since then has been nearly as stellar and, while they deserve their kudos, it seems we're letting them ride on long-ago successes. Udrih was a good pick that late in the draft (better than Vujacic), but hardly set the world on fire. And as for Scola, Mahinmi, Sanikidze, Javtokas, etc., how many of those are currently on the team? How many will ever be on the team? I think only one ever will be - Mahinmi - and that's by dint of his guaranteed contract more than anything else.

Darkwaters

12-15-2006, 01:08 PM

Big P

12-15-2006, 01:23 PM

IMO we should keep our eyes on guys like Khrypa(Bulls) & Korolev(Clippers). Khrypa is not getting any playing time & while I think it is probably a long shot that we trade for him this season, maybe something could be worked out in the summer. Korolev on the other hand didn't have his rookie contract extended & will be a FA this summer. IMO he is the type of player that can be molded into what the Spurs need. He is 6'9, young(not even 20 yet), athletic & a very versatile player. If Scola is defintily not going to be playing for us anytime soon, then I think we should look at trading his rights & filler(ie. EWill) to try & get a young guy like Khrypa or Korolev. Hopefully the SF situation can be worked out sometime by next summer.

Mr. Body

12-15-2006, 01:25 PM

Mr. Body,

Are you really advocating the Knicks' drafting abilities? Really? There is absolutely no reason for a Spurs fan to feel jealous of Isiah Thomas. The man is singlehandedly keeping the Knicks down with his foolish moves. The Eddy Curry deal? Give me a break! Renaldo Balkman in the first round? Mardy Collins? Isiah is a joke.

Separate Isiah as a GM from his ability to scout players for the draft. His draft record was already pretty great before he took over in New York - he's credited with Tracy McGrady (I believe), Damon Stoudamire, and Marcus Camby.

In New York in 2005 he drafted 3 players in the first round who are true studs for the points they were taken: Channing Frye, Nate Robinson, and David Lee. Each could already be a part-time or full-time starter in the league. I'll give Mardy Collins time, but Renaldo Balkman is the real deal. He's not much offensively yet, if he ever will be, but he's going to be a very nice hustle and energy player who can block, get steals, rebound, and bring the ball up the court. I would absolutely love to have him on our bench - watch him play sometimes. He'll be a difference maker.

The only mistake Isiah made last summer was sticking to his guns and taking his guy instead of Marcus Williams and then Balkman with the next pick. But he saw they had too many guards as it was and went for defensive glue guys. Might hurt a bit in the end, but we don't know what Collins will offer. I can't totally fault his reasoning, though I'd like him to have grabbed Williams and then gone for Balkman after. But Balkman looks real - he was right about him.

The hate on Isiah Thomas is tedious sometimes. He's made some questionable decisions, but he's trying to put a team together, and in some ways it's working. Curry is proving a lot of people wrong at the moment. If the Knicks don't make the playoffs (still possible) or they accidentally let Chicago get a top-3 pick, then it's a mess, but at best they gave up Tyrus Thomas and maybe a 10s (swap from 20s) pick for Eddie Curry, who is giving them wins this year. Not the best deal by any means, but not apocalyptic. Adding Jared Jeffries was a nice move that counteracts the bad move for Jerome James.

But Thomas does have some good talents, and one of them is drafting talent.

So, yes, he is better at drafting domestic talent than the Spurs are. By a country mile.

Bruno

12-15-2006, 01:36 PM

this isn't a good comparison.

Mr. Body just says that Spurs badly need a player like Lee next year.
I've just said that I rather have Scola as backup PF than Lee next year.

and we know Spurs can not just go out and sign Scola.

They can't during the 05' summer, but they can during the 06' summer and they will likely to sign him next summer. They just need to give $9M/3 years.

this led to an overrating of the Spurs scouting, by the fans and the media.

Spurs have done a great job when you consider that they only have had some late first round pick and second round picks.

Lee is also much cheaper than Scola and a far, far better rebounder, something we vitally need.

Scola is a decent rebounder and is far, far, far better offensive player than Lee.
Spurs' rebounding will mainly improve by playing a good rebounder at SF and not by having having better rebounders at PF/C, especially when the only thing they can do well is rebounding.

And as for Scola, Mahinmi, Sanikidze, Javtokas, etc., how many of those are currently on the team? How many will ever be on the team? I think only one ever will be - Mahinmi - and that's by dint of his guaranteed contract more than anything else.

Mahinmi and Sanikidze are 20 years old : give him some time before judging him.

Javtokas, Scola, Karaulov are late second round pick.
Just look at who were drafted after them :

Javtokas : Alvin Jones (23 games, 1.1 rbds, 1.6 pts), Brian bracey (0 games)
Scola : Randy Holcomb (4 games, 0.3 rbds, 0.5 pts), Corsley Edwards ( 10 games, 2.5 rbds, 2.7 pts)
Karaulov : Blake Stepp ( 0 games), Rashad Wright (0 games)

Both Javtokas (even post-injury) and Scola are great picks even if they aren't with the team for the moment. They are light years better than the usual late second rounder.

Scola will likely be in nba in 07 or 08.
Javtokas will maybe be in nba in 2 years if he plays well next year with his greek team.

Mr. Body

12-15-2006, 01:44 PM

Scola is a decent rebounder and is far, far, far better offensive player than Lee.
Spurs' rebounding will mainly improve by playing a good rebounder at SF and not by having having better rebounders at PF/C, especially when the only thing they can do well is rebounding.

By no means am I opposed to Luis Scola. I'd love him to be a Spur and don't really mean to compare him to Lee. I just hope we can find some resolution to his situation this summer to finally get some value for him.

I'm knocking the Spurs' drafting more than I should. They have done well drafting internationally, yet it's clear we haven't gotten anything out of it for several years now. Scola is an NBA player, but I doubt Javtokas ever is, and I doubt Sanikidze will be. He'll pay off down the line, perhaps.

I just wish they'd commit some of those resources to domestic scouting. There have been too many diamonds in the rough dropping into the second round in the '00s to not open up some eyes. I believe the pick we took Karaulov, in fact, we could have used on Jackie Butler, who went undrafted that year.

In any case, it's a huge summer in '07, one of the pivotal offseasons in Spurs history, IMO. Not the most, but up there.

Darkwaters

12-15-2006, 02:04 PM

What do we think the chances are that Mahinmi joins the Spurs next season?

Bruno

12-15-2006, 03:04 PM

What do we think the chances are that Mahinmi joins the Spurs next season?

I think that Mahinmi and Spurs haven't decided for the moment where Mahinmi will play next year. I just can give you some keys about his choice :

- Mahinmi wanted to have a big season in europe before signign with Spurs. This season isn't a big one so far for him.

- Mahinmi has signed a two years contract (this year and next year) with Pau but I don't know if there is a buyout to sing with Spurs at the end of the first year.

- Pau is not sure to be qualified for the euroleague next year. If Pau isn't qualified for the euroleague, Mahinmi situation will be quite complicated : he can stay with Pau but he will only play the french league whose level is quite weak, sign with another european team but he would to find against his place in a new roster with a new coach or he can sign with Spurs. If Pau isn't qualified for the Euroleague next year, Mahinmi chances to be a Spur next year are greater.

- Spurs desire to have Mahinmi with them. I'm not sure that Spurs want to sign Mahinmi for next year if he isn't ready because Pau is maybe better than the DLeague or Spurs' practice for Mahinmi. Pau's coach is well known by Spurs because he is an assistant coach for them during summer league and he has the same mentality than Pop (defense first + hard working). One of the Spurs physical trainer is in France during the whole year to work with Mahinmi and Pau (Spurs managed Mahinmi strengthen programm). Mahinmi is still in contact with Spurs (he called Presti weekly).

Mr. Body

12-15-2006, 03:08 PM

What do we think the chances are that Mahinmi joins the Spurs next season?

I don't think likely, but it depends on what happens in the offseason. Right now we have 3 non-Duncan bigs under contract for next year - Elson, Oberto, Butler - not counting Horry.

If we bring a European-leaguer over, I'd say it'd be Scola. If we trade Scola, there's a distant chance Mahinmi comes, but only for development (the James White/Jackie Butler plan), and we have too many development slots taken at the moment.

I'd say one more year Mahinmi is out. At the end of '08 we have all the bigs expiring, so we can resign who we still like (maybe Elson? maybe Butler, too?), and have room to generate room for Ian. But hopefully we have a starting big by that point to play C or we're in trouble.

mountainballer

12-16-2006, 01:02 PM

By no means am I opposed to Luis Scola. I'd love him to be a Spur and don't really mean to compare him to Lee. I just hope we can find some resolution to his situation this summer to finally get some value for him.

I guess noone is opposed to Scola
I absolutly wasn't happy with this offseason, when Spurs for the first time had the chance to get Scola in a realistic buy-out scenario, but were hesitant to finally bring him over.
I don't have a problem with the Elson signing and also not with the gamble on Butler, but NOT on the cost of NOT signing Scola to a reasonable contract.
I guess Spurs meanwhile regret this, because of the bad play of Horry and Bonner.
we could use Scola very very well this year as the first back-up of Tim. it would have cost 3 million/year. what a bargain considering Rob, Bonner, Butler and E.Will make together 12 million a year for a production Scola alone might have been able to give.
the Raptors pay 4 million to Garbajosa, a good player in Europe, but not as good as Scola and they are very very happy with what he delivers.
Spurs wasted a great opportunity and one year of Scola's prime and did a lot of damage to the relation to Scola, who now likely will never sign with the Spurs.
in summer word was that a back-up PF isn't a major need for the Spurs. that was right.
but it also showed that the usually great and sensible working FO made some major mistakes in judging the whole PF situation. (overrating what Horry has left in the tank, overrating what Bonner can deliver, underrating what Oberto is able to do etc.)

let's hope that next summer gives Spurs the chance to get back on the table with Scola. (I hope Manu and Oberto will help to propitiate Scola)

something else:

Radmanovic is labeled a bust in LA. he is rumored to be on the market.
what do you think about him?
I have to admit that I am confused how to finally see him as a player.
on the one hand he displays a lot, what the Spurs could well use in the current situation (long SF, quite athletic, versatile, plays both forward spots) on the other hand he is far from being exactly the player we would need. (defense, attitiude)
he makes 5 million/year. that's quite some money, but not that much, if he would exploit his potential.
Lakers are rumored to be happy if they could just get rid of his contract.
would it be a very bad idea to try to trade E.Williams expiring contract (maybe it would take one or two seond rounder to sweeten the deal) for Radmanovic and gamble on the possibility that he might flourish on a verteran team with some good tutoring? he would not be the first player, who learns to play some defense with the Spurs and who learns to try hard to help the team first.

Bruno

12-16-2006, 01:13 PM

Radmanovic is labeled a bust in LA. he is rumored to be on the market.
what do you think about him?

Radmanovic has a hand injury, that's why he struggles.
He will have a surgery next offseason to correct his injury.

RS189

12-16-2006, 02:48 PM

You guys need AK47! or Francisco Garcia :fro

timvp

12-16-2006, 03:47 PM

Why do you insist on lumping Barry and Finley together as if they are similar players?

They are not...unlike Finley, Barry has value even when his shooting sucks(or when he doesn't shoot enough).

Assists count....

In today's NBA, assists are overrated. It sounds sacrilegious to say, but it's true.

Today's NBA is about taking your man off the dribble and scoring at the rim. Dallas was last in the entire NBA in assists last year. Miami was in the bottom half as well.

Nowadays, a guy who can slash to the rim and finish is much more valuable than a guy who will slash to the basket with the sole purpose of creating shots.

Passing used to be a good attribute from a perimeter player back when there were no zone defenses and players were allowed to handcheck. Now, with the rules how they are setup, a player like Jerry Freakin' Stackhouse is more valuable than Brent Barry.

That last statement would have been laughable a couple seasons ago, but it's now true. You just can't guard slashers. You can guard a guy like Barry who is either shooting a stand still jumper or making a pass to another guy who is waiting to take a stand still jumper.

So yes, you can lump Barry and Finley in today's league.

Additionally....Barry has never sucked as bad as Finley has this season, as a Spur.

I would say Barry sucked last year in the playoffs, but that'd be too kind.

Care to post the +/- stats from last year's playoffs?

Didn't think so.

Darkwaters

12-17-2006, 02:08 AM

Did you guys see the clinic that Alando Tucker put on tonight against Pitt? He looked really good out there. He showed some nice scoring ability and plays solid D. Hes projected right now in the second round. While mock drafts don't usually mean anything until post-NCAA tournament, it is not out of the realm of thought that he might be available in the second for the Spurs.

Would it make sense for the Spurs to grab him next draft? The Spurs are loaded with 2 guards at the moment and have a young 3 in James White already. Personally I like the idea of him as a 2, but with Ginobili, Barry and Finley in the way that makes no sense at the moment in terms of playing time. Although, the Spurs will need to address the need of another shooting guard soon unless they think Sanikidize is at all close and White can step in next season. Fact is, Barry and Finley are on their way out and Ginobili is oft injured (and nearing 30 as well).

Thoughts?