18,000 Provisional Ballots Uncounted in New Mexico

[Nbadan]

By Andy Lenderman
Journal Politics Writer

About 18,000 provisional ballots remain to be counted around New Mexico, an elections official said. It may be several days before they're processed and still later before they're tallied. And there was still debate Wednesday about whether they will make a difference in the Bush-Kerry race in New Mexico. Many voters might be unfamiliar with provisional ballots, but they could matter in a close race.

Provisional ballots are paper ballots given to voters who show up at the polls but don't have the right kind of required identification or who go to the wrong precinct, for example. The ballots are guaranteed under recently enacted federal and state laws. Before they're counted, election officials must verify that each provisional ballot has been cast by a registered voter, said Ernest Ortega, a spokesman for Secretary of State Rebecca Vigil-Giron.

If the voter is registered, the ballot counts, Ortega said.
If not, it doesn't.

One requirement is that provisional ballots must be cast within the voter's county of residence to be valid. And a provisional ballot could be rejected by election officials if the voter failed to sign the outer envelope or signature roster, or did not provide sufficient identification information to elections officials, Ortega said.

New Mexico's 33 county clerks are required to submit their complete vote totals— including provisional and absentee votes— to the Secretary of State's Office by Nov. 12, Ortega said.

State officials are to present their final canvass, or vote count, to the state canvassing board by Nov. 23, Ortega said.

ABQ Journal (http://www.abqjournal.com/elex/252797elex11-04-04.htm?lrail)

[Hook Dem]

The "chads" are still hanging in Florida too Dan! :lol

[T Park]

Kerry lost, election is over, who cares about New Mexico.

[ChumpDumper]

New Mexicans, I would guess.

But yeah, it's over. Who do we invade next?

[T Park]

id say france, but im sure you and john kerry wouldnt go for that.

I say we give the terrorists hugs and kisses, THEN maybe theyll stop, right Chump? Thats the ONLY way to fight the terrorists, is with kisses and hugs, RIGHT?!?!?! :) :)

[ChumpDumper]

I'm serious. Anyway, I don't get how France has become this pariah of late. They've always been contrarian assholes who simply like fucking with the larger powers of the world to make them feel less impotent. What's new?

[T Park]

so am i, hug the terrorists, then theyll stop right?

come on, cant we all just GET ALONG COME ON!! :) :) :) :) :)

[ChumpDumper]

I don't get where you are coming from. I'm all for killing the terrorist -- but what do we think it's actually going to take?

[T Park]

whats it going to take?

kill the terrorists before they kill us, duh.

[ChumpDumper]

And what does that mean? How will it be done?

[IcemanCometh]

kill the terrorist, kill the frenchman, kill the arab, kill the jew, kill the german, kill the african, kill the chinaman, kill the canadian

America uber alles

[Hook Dem]

kill the terrorist, kill the frenchman, kill the arab, kill the jew, kill the german, kill the african, kill the chinaman, kill the canadian

America uber alles
You forgot "Kill the Ice" :lol

[Sportcamper]

I vote for more hanging chads...
And less bickering in 2004! :elephant

http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/tv_pix/mtv/mtv_video_music_awards_2003_photos/jessica_simpson/mtv.jpg

[MannyIsGod]

18,000 uncounted votes is a situation to be remedied, not ignored. Regardless of what effect it woudl have on the election (Minimal if any). Everyone deserves to have their vote counted and we should strive for an efficent system.

[dcole50]

id say france, but im sure you and john kerry wouldnt go for that.do you honestly believe that declaring war on france would be in our best interest?

i'm all for doing everything possible to destroy every al qaeda cell and kill every terrorist possible. i'm not in favor of a WWIII scenario in which we're declaring war on european nations.

[Yonivore]

We're still talking about the election?

[Useruser666]

If there are 18,000 ballots, wouldn't they be counted? How do you know there are 18,000 if they weren't counted? :lol

[Yonivore]

do you honestly believe that declaring war on france would be in our best interest?
Frankly...I think it would be in the world's interest; but, that's just me.

[Nbadan]

If there are 18,000 ballots, wouldn't they be counted? How do you know there are 18,000 if they weren't counted?

The political ignorance here is overwhelming. The provisional ballots aren't counted till 12 days after the general election. Some will be thrown out, but the majority will be added to the final count and 80% are expected to go to Kerry. Bush's current lead in New Mexico is only 8366.

Folks if this happens, this could mean that we are only the provisional ballots in Iowa (Bush's lead is down to 13,216 votes) and a recount in Ohio, once unconscienceable but now very possible, but which Republicans are sure to resist cause of fraud, away from finding that Kerry may have actually won the 2004 Presidential election.

[Kori Ellis]

and 80% are expected to go to Kerry

How the heck do you know that if they haven't been counted yet?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Because Kori, Michael Moore and George Soros know who they paid to vote.

[Nbadan]

Historically, 80% of Provisional ballots go to democratic candidates. Governor Richardson is demanding that all the provisional ballots be counted but as well as you can imagine, there are forces trying to discard all the provisional ballots like they convieniently did in Florida last week.

Here are some neat (and accurate) cartograms of the 2004 election, and why I believe the Republican party is at height and has no where to go but down...

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/election/statecart.png

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/election/county.png

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/election/cartcolors.png

[Drachen]

I dont get it. (the cartograms)
Oh and by the way Nbadan, every time I see your handle, I keep thinking you are african, then 10 mins later I am like OH YEAH NBA DAN!, this happens to me once every 3 days or so... Oh well, on trivial things I am a bit of an absent minded professor.

[Kori Ellis]

Historically, 80% of Provisional ballots go to democratic candidates.

Where'd you get the stats on that? I don't recall seeing percentages on provisional ballots in the last few presidential elections. Just curious, do you have a link to actual numbers?

[Drachen]

I think you may be talking about absentee ballots anyway, because, if I recall correctly, this is the first election where we are allowing provisional ballots. (I could be wrong though)

[Kori Ellis]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I thought the Help Americans Vote Act was just passed in 2002 mandating all polling places nationwide to allow anyone to vote, thus creating the "provisional" ballots. If that's the case, then you probably don't have much to go on with this statement ...


Historically, 80% of Provisional ballots go to democratic candidates.

But I'll give you another statement, just to see your retort ...


Historically, most provisional ballots are bogus. According to The New York Times, in a March 2004 Chicago election — where provisional ballots were actually cast in the names of “Ben Affleck” and “Pancho Villa” — fully 93 percent of the provisional ballots were disqualified.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/10/8/94804.shtml

[Drachen]

Wow Kori, we were on the same wavelength... Interesting...

[Kori Ellis]

I think you may be talking about absentee ballots anyway, because, if I recall correctly, this is the first election where we are allowing provisional ballots. (I could be wrong though)

That's what I understand as well. This is the first presidential election with provisional ballots, right?

[Drachen]

So far as I know.

[Nbadan]

I think you may be talking about absentee ballots anyway, because, if I recall correctly, this is the first election where we are allowing provisional ballots. (I could be wrong though)

This is the first year that provisional ballots are used nationally. They have been used before in various states, but I'm not sure about New Mexico, however, it's not hard to believe that 80% of these ballots will go democratic since they are more likely to be from poorer, urban areas.

[Nbadan]

The cartograms show the actual vote in a geographic representation.

[Kori Ellis]

however, it's not hard to believe that 80% of these ballots will go democratic since they are more likely to be from poorer, urban areas.

It might not be hard for you to believe. But you just made that 80% number up. Admit it.

[Drachen]

I like those cartograms, its like what I would expect it to be like going immediately through the different stages on a hallucinogenic drug... Time lapse drugography.
Sorry, Im kinda bored and antsy, I know this is way off subject. Oh well.

P.S. Sorry, I dont know enough about the history of provisional ballots to add anything meaningful to this conversation, so I will probably just stop posting in this thread.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Governor Richardson is demanding that all the provisional ballots be counted but as well as you can imagine, there are forces trying to discard all the provisional ballots like they convieniently did in Florida last week.

I saw Richardson say the day before election that he guaranteed that NM would go to Kerry.

I guess this is his way of delivering, just "come up" with enough ballots to pull it out for Kerry.

I could applying Dan's fucked up conspiracy logic and have a little fun with this one, but it's too much fun watching Dan hang himself on the 80% when it's the first time it's used in a presidential election.

[Kori Ellis]

Drachen, keep posting. The more people backing each other up, the better. :)

[Drachen]

Drachen, keep posting. The more people backing each other up, the better. :)

I really dont like to get into debates (arguements) where I dont know the subject matter well enough to do so. I pride myself on being informed (and right!! :lol: ) and if I dont know much about a subject, Im afraid my "backing" doesnt mean much.

[Nbadan]

I'm looking for verification right now, but in 2000 the same thing happened. It took New Mexico two weeks to finally tally all the provisional ballots and Gore won by 366 votes.


In the 2000 election, it took about a month for the state to determine that Al Gore had defeated President George W. Bush by 366 votes.

Election officials said they are working to count all ballots by Friday in the race between President Bush and Sen. John Kerry. In Bernalillo County, the actual counting of more than 13,000 provisional and in-lieu-of ballots might not start until Tuesday, election officials said.

Provisional ballots were cast by voters whose names didn't appear on a polling place roster or whose eligibility is in question. In-lieu-of ballots were given to voters who asked for an absentee ballot but said they did not receive one.

Since Saturday, 50 temporary county employees have been separating provisional ballots into three piles: questionable, eligible and ineligible.

Questionable ballots will be examined today after the Secretary of State's Office clarifies the election code, Bernalillo County Clerk Mary Herrera said Sunday.

"It is taking about eight hours to get through 100 precincts," said Jeff Carbajal, Bureau of Elections coordinator. "The workers realize the importance of getting it done properly."

By mid-afternoon Sunday, Carbajal said about 100 of the 400 precinct's ballots had been sorted. He said the canvassing board will work from 7 a.m. to 11 p.m. today, which could be enough time to finish 200 more precincts.

While New Mexico is the only state that does not have a clear-cut presidential winner, it is not the only state counting provisional ballots. The Help America Vote Act that President Bush passed into law last year allowed residents to vote at any precinct in their county by provisional ballot.

Herrera said she is frustrated that these ballots have to be counted by hand.
"I can't believe, with the technology we have now, we're still doing it by hand," she said. "We've got to start looking at something else."

On Friday, The Associated Press reported President Bush with an 8,588 vote lead over Kerry with more than 17,000 provisional ballots yet to be counted in the state.

Although the AP has declared Bush the winner in New Mexico, John Wertheim, state Democratic chairman, said it is still possible that Kerry could win here.

It is important that every vote be counted," said Wertheim, who was observing county workers Sunday. "It is mandated by state and federal law. It's not in anyone's power to stop this process."

Other counties also have ballots outstanding: More...

ABQ Journal (http://www.abqjournal.com/elex/255869elex11-08-04.htm)

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Like I said, Richardson has that state locked down, if he says he can deliver it to Kerry, I'm sure he can come up with enough paper provisional ballots to make it happen.

It's obviously a liberal conspiracy to steal the election, sort of an old fashioned western "hacking" of the vote.

[Nbadan]

Here is a State and county breakdown of the 2004 Presidential election

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20041107/images/map.jpg

[Useruser666]

The political ignorance here is overwhelming. The provisional ballots aren't counted till 12 days after the general election. Some will be thrown out, but the majority will be added to the final count and 80% are expected to go to Kerry. Bush's current lead in New Mexico is only 8366.

Folks if this happens, this could mean that we are only the provisional ballots in Iowa (Bush's lead is down to 13,216 votes) and a recount in Ohio, once unconscienceable but now very possible, but which Republicans are sure to resist cause of fraud, away from finding that Kerry may have actually won the 2004 Presidential election.

Dan, my post was a joke. I thought some one who posts the way you do could see that! :lol

[Drachen]

As far as all this hacking, provisional ballots and such goes, I do have to say that I am glad that people are scrutinizing the process, especially the touchscreen machines. I simply say this because its just has a natural flow in the scientific method, we performed and experiment now we have to observe all of the results. Before I get flamed though, I really dont think it will make the difference in the election. If we do find a mistake in the programming or something, and it does, then that would be fine too. I really think that they should have a paper trail on these things, though, and where did our right go (at least in Bexar county) to "write in" a vote, I never saw that option on the screen.

[Yonivore]

I'm still waiting to hear where Nbadanallah got that 80% of provisionals go to the Demoncrat.

Because, from all I've heard, it's expected that Provisionals will mirror the statewide election percentages and not change the outcome that much, either way. Unless, of course, Nbadanallah is willing to confess that Demoncrats are more stupid than Republicans and can't seem to get their shit together for election day...

But, I digress, provisional ballots are challenged voters and, from what I remember on election day, there was just as many Republicans being challenged at the poll as there were Demoncrats...maybe more. So, it stands to reason (using Nbadanallah's logic) that if most of the provisionals are in urban areas -- those will be the Republican ballots cast in largely Demoncratic precincts because, well, is a Demoncratic precinct chair more likely to challenge a Republican or another Demoncrat?

[MannyIsGod]

Dan, you need to take a week off and drink a few bottles of Tequila. This shit sucks, but LET IT GO!