Rummy: Battle For Fallujah Not Last Big Battle In Iraq

[Nbadan]

PENTAGON (AP) - Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld says don't expect the battle for Fallujah to be the last big clash between coalition troops and the insurgents in Iraq.

He says insurgents have to be routed from their safe havens and the U-S and Iraqi governments have made the joint decision to see this through.

Back in April, U-S Marines launched an assault on Fallujah but later halted the offensive. By most accounts, insurgents used the time between then and now to build up their arsenals and their popular support.

Rochester Today (http://www.rochestertoday.com/news/national/story.aspx?content_id=8AE8554D-B5C1-4C65-807F-F910D1E13757)

AS I've been saying, anyone who thinks that the battle of Fallujah is the culmination of the Iraqi insurgency is diluted and ought to turn off Talkradio and Fox News for a while, take a deep, deep, breath and go outside for awhile - clear their heads.

[bigzak25]

the more we can kill in fallujah, the better.

they might regroup in mosul. the insurgency will die.

[Yonivore]

Rochester Today (http://www.rochestertoday.com/news/national/story.aspx?content_id=8AE8554D-B5C1-4C65-807F-F910D1E13757)

AS I've been saying, anyone who thinks that the battle of Fallujah is the culmination of the Iraqi insurgency is diluted and ought to turn off Talkradio and Fox News for a while, take a deep, deep, breath and go outside for awhile - clear their heads.
I don't recall anyone saying that...but, it is the battle du jour! Probably on to Ramadi after that...

And, if you'd paid attention back in 2001, President Bush told all Americans this would be a protracted war against global terrorism. Only Demoncrats, such as yourself, have any illusions that reasonable and sane people believe it will all be over after Fallujah falls...

[JoeChalupa]

With the Marines..it'll soon be over.

[MannyIsGod]

What people seem to have forgotten, is that when you're fighting an insurgency on their turf, it NEVER dies. These people aren't going to give up, and they can disrupt things so damn easily that the odds of this thing going on and on and on are overhelming.

Call me a pessemist, but I'm just being real. You have to realize that whlie there are forgieners there, most of these people are native Iraqis who feel they are fighting for their country, and that can be a very large motivating factor.

Either way, major combat was over a long ass time ago....right?

[Hook Dem]

"Call me a pessemist, but I'm just being real. You have to realize that whlie there are forgieners there, most of these people are native Iraqis who feel they are fighting for their country, and that can be a very large motivating factor." ..........................Did you conveniently forget the "native Iraqis" battling those insurgents?

[MannyIsGod]

You miss my point entirely. I'm not saying all Iraqis are on their side, but what I said was the motivation for their side is not something that is just going to die away. Civil wars are usually long and bloody, and this is merely the begining.

[bigzak25]

i think we disagree on the motivation.

if their motivation is to stop a free iraq. then I think it WILL DIE, with the death of the insurgents.....


Let Freedom Reign.

[Hook Dem]

You miss my point entirely. I'm not saying all Iraqis are on their side, but what I said was the motivation for their side is not something that is just going to die away. Civil wars are usually long and bloody, and this is merely the begining.
I didn't miss your point! "Their" motivation will go away when they are DEAD .

[MannyIsGod]

You know how stupid all of that sounds?

Seriously, think about it, they want to stop a free Iraq. They are fighting because they want to return to the life under Sadaam.

I think so many people in this country misunderstand the motivations of people in that area of the world because they are so different in regards to culture, they don't share the same values, and because our leaders continuely portray anyone who disagree's with us in those manners and fights back against our hegemonic actions as EVIL.

Whether or not your agree with their choices, you have to at this point at least conceed that these people are driven and extremely motivated. I don't quite know what they want to achieve other than simply drive the united states out of the country, but I do think very strongly that they are not fighting "freedom". That's just some catchy shit presidents love to say because it rallys people behind them.

I think at some point we need to make a serious effort to understand them and their culture in order to better diagnose the solutions to the problems of the region. It's very hard though when your government has a serious lack of people that can even translate their language.

[MannyIsGod]

Hook, that's one way of dealing with them. But if you think you can kill them and their deaths will not motivate others, You haven't been watching what has happend very closely whatsoever.

[Hook Dem]

"It's very hard though when your government has a serious lack of people that can even translate their language." .................Alright...at the risk of you thinking I'm questioning your reasoning....why don't you volunteer for that task and help out?

[CrazyOne]

Oh, I see... it's just in their culture to round up women for rape rooms, torture soccer teams when they lose, kill thousands upon thousands with poison gas, and put little kids in prison. The insurgents are fighting for the freedom to return to those significant parts of their culture, so they're not evil... just misunderstood or just very naughty.

[Hook Dem]

Hook, that's one way of dealing with them. But if you think you can kill them and their deaths will not motivate others, You haven't been watching what has happend very closely whatsoever.
I've been watching very closely Manny and I am not trying to underscore you. I just don't agree with you.

[MannyIsGod]

ACTUALLY HOOK, i was looking into classes at UTSA in arabic, but sadly they don't offer any. I will be taking some in the future though, but unless I transfer up to UT in Austin, it probably will not be untill I go to grad school.

The prospect of going to DC with a degree in PS and having arabic experience is one that makes me salivate because of the amount of doors that will open.

[MannyIsGod]

Crazy, and we live in a society that has only recently granted rights to minorities, contains capital punishment, still denies equal rights to large groups of people and has a history of genocide.

I wonder the reaction of the american people if the UN put together a force to liberate opressed people in this country and end capital punishment?

Yeah, the idea of liberating societiesin the middle east is nothing Dubya invented, a few English kings had that shit down pat a long ass time ago. See Also, The Cursades.

[MannyIsGod]

I can appreciate that Hook, and we're allowed to disagree.

[Hook Dem]

ACTUALLY HOOK, i was looking into classes at UTSA in arabic, but sadly they don't offer any. I will be taking some in the future though, but unless I transfer up to UT in Austin, it probably will not be untill I go to grad school.

The prospect of going to DC with a degree in PS and having arabic experience is one that makes me salivate because of the amount of doors that will open.
I wish you all the success in the world and sincerely hope you apply that knowledge in a responsible manner. Seiously!

[CrazyOne]

Sorry, I can't help but laugh... :lol


Crazy, and we live in a society that has only recently granted rights to minorities, contains capital punishment, still denies equal rights to large groups of people and has a history of genocide.

To compare the growth and maturity and freedom found in the US over the last hundred years to the brutality, oppression and real genocide is like the pot calling the china black...

[CrazyOne]

Oh, but I gotta give you a ditto
I wish you all the success in the world and sincerely hope you apply that knowledge in a responsible manner. Seiously! Go for it!

[MannyIsGod]

It's an exageration, but once again, liberating a people by force is something that has been tried and tried again.

Hey don't take my word for it, look at history. I don't know of my revolutions that were exported.

[CrazyOne]

hmm... see France after WW2...Italy... Germany... how about Japan... Philippines... there have been lots of places in modern history that have been liberated from tyrants and oppressors.

[bigzak25]

but I do think very strongly that they are not fighting "freedom".


dude manny, alot of them are fighting against their loss of power and control that they had under saddam. alot of them are people that have committed atrocites and have no place and no one to turn to in a free iraq. and alot of them are fighting against iraqi freedom because of what it would do to the radical islamic belief of a hateful, tryannical America that wants nothing but to rape the land of it's resources and detroy the muslims from the face of the earth....that is their battlecry....A free and successful Iraq means thier battlecry turns to shit. Propaganda won't mean shit when there is a free Iraq. We will have a check and mate vs. these radicals.

[Hook Dem]

dude manny, alot of them are fighting against their loss of power and control that they had under saddam. alot of them are people that have committed atrocites and have no place and no one to turn to in a free iraq. and alot of them are fighting against iraqi freedom because of what it would do to the radical islamic belief of a hateful, tryannical America that wants nothing but to rape the land of it's resources and detroy the muslims from the face of the earth....that is their battlecry....A free and successful Iraq means thier battlecry turns to shit. Propaganda won't mean shit when there is a free Iraq. We will have a check and mate vs. these radicals.
As good as it can be said!!!!!!!

[exstatic]

Manny is the only one on track here. All of the NeoCons seem to think of Middle Easterners as just Americans in robes or something. Life is cheap to these people, and freedom is an anathema. I was watching a special on the U.A.E., supposedly one of our allies in the area. They still have slavery. They import young boys from other countries like Bangladesh and Pakistan to ride in their camel races. The boys sleep in tin shacks, are basicly starved to keep their weight down, and get no medical care. If they die, they die, and they frequently do. Meanwhile, the camels have swimming pools, get the best feed and on site veterinary care. This culture of the cheapness of human life goes back about 14 centuries, and isn't likely to change because we put some boots on the ground in Iraq. As soon as those boots leave, the embedded culture will return.

[Useruser666]

Manny is the only one on track here. All of the NeoCons seem to think of Middle Easterners as just Americans in robes or something. Life is cheap to these people, and freedom is an anathema. I was watching a special on the U.A.E., supposedly one of our allies in the area. They still have slavery. They import young boys from other countries like Bangladesh and Pakistan to ride in their camel races. The boys sleep in tin shacks, are basicly starved to keep their weight down, and get no medical care. If they die, they die, and they frequently do. Meanwhile, the camels have swimming pools, get the best feed and on site veterinary care. This culture of the cheapness of human life goes back about 14 centuries, and isn't likely to change because we put some boots on the ground in Iraq. As soon as those boots leave, the embedded culture will return.

That's a pretty piss poor view of an entire region on people.

[exstatic]

Doesn't make it invalid. These are the people from the same region and same religion that drove three airplanes into buildings, killing thousands. Get it? They weren't the exception, more a mirror of their violent, misogynistic culture. They are different from us, WAY different.

Have you ever been out of the U.S., User?

[whottt]

exstatic is on record as saying they are savages incapable of living in a free society.

[Useruser666]

Doesn't make it invalid. These are the people from the same region and same religion that drove three airplanes into buildings, killing thousands. Get it? They weren't the exception, more a mirror of their violent, misogynistic culture. They are different from us, WAY different.

Have you ever been out of the U.S., User?

First off, LOL Whottt! Pounced on that quickly.

Secondly, yes I have been outside of the US. I don't think that really matters though. I think I believe your letting your opinion of these people degrade what you think our chances of succeding over there are. I truly believe there is only a small minority there who know they can't survive under a free democracy. Those are the people causing all the trouble. don't let them ruin this for everyone.

[Marcus Bryant]

No comment.

[JoeChalupa]

What!?!?!?!?

[Yonivore]

All this has been said before...

First about the Nazis...then the Japanese.

[exstatic]

The Nazis were not an embedded culture of 1400 years duration, they were a rogue regime in an economic climate that was ripe for totalitarianism. The Japanese were embedded for hundreds of years, but it took a fucking century after Perry sailed into Tokyo harbor to drag them into civilization. I'd say that doesn't bode well for any Middle East democratization efforts before, say, 2150. Our so called "allies" in the region are some of the worst regimes in the world. How are we supposed to "reform" the bad guys when we support other cruel corrupt regimes in the area?

[Yonivore]

The Nazis were not an embedded culture of 1400 years duration, they were a rogue regime in an economic climate that was ripe for totalitarianism. The Japanese were embedded for hundreds of years, but it took a fucking century after Perry sailed into Tokyo harbor to drag them into civilization. I'd say that doesn't bode well for any Middle East democratization efforts before, say, 2150. Our so called "allies" in the region are some of the worst regimes in the world. How are we supposed to "reform" the bad guys when we support other cruel corrupt regimes in the area?
I'm a "glass is half full" kind of person and I believe it will happen.

[whottt]

How are we supposed to "reform" the bad guys when we support other cruel corrupt regimes in the area?

From the beginning the Bush admin said alliances will change depending on the target, how hard is this to figure out?

EG: There was no way to get into Afghanistan without the aid of Pakistan.

And I wish people would stop fucking saying we support some of the cruelist regimes in the area...We do business with many of them, so does every country in the world...who the fuck says we are supposed to go and fuck with the internal politic of every country in the world even when they are non hostile to their neighbors and us...we have no ability to do that.



Saudi? They have trillions of dollars invested in our country...they provide one quarter of the Worlds Oil...every country in the World does business with them.

We give aid to 99% of the countries in the world, hostile or otherwise and we are always encouraging them to westernize their ways. That doesn't mean we support corrupt regimes...

You think we say "here, have billions of dollars courtesy of us, use this money to keep a 40% uneployment 65% illiteracy rate, and foster apocolyptic religious movements"

Damn man.

[ChumpDumper]

So moral superiority is only an argument of convenience.

Understood.

[Yonivore]

So moral superiority is only an argument of convenience.

Understood.
We aligned with Stalin to beat Hitler...

Was that justified?