Bruce Bowen [Archive] - SpursTalk.com Forums

Aggie Hoopsfan

11-10-2004, 10:17 PM

"Like Mike, if I could be like Mike..."

Seriously, it's like he's got whatever Malik had the last two years.

They both need to realize that they are role players, and that means they have a role to play.

It's not to score 20 a night, it's not to make the flashy pass, it's not to break down the D to set people up.

In Bowen's case, we have plenty of slashers, creators, and guys to handle the offensive load in Duncan, Parker, Manu, and Barry. All we need him to do is play lock down perimeter defense and hit the corner three. Quit trying to be an all-around player Bruce, that's not what we're paying you for and it's not what we need from you.

Amuseddaysleeper

11-10-2004, 10:45 PM

Brent needs to start instead of bruce, regardless of brent's age, and I feel TD needs to play more minutes, last I checked he only averages 35 mpg. But then again maybe its best to rest TD a bit more, not sure how sturdy his knees are.

Aggie Hoopsfan

11-10-2004, 10:48 PM

No way you start Brent, he's the boost off the bench, and he can play anywhere from PG to SF if needed. You bring him off the bench wherever you need it.

If Bowen would just quit trying to develop an all-around game and focus on what he does well, he'd be fine.

T Park

11-10-2004, 10:53 PM

we have alot of players that that phrase could apply to.

Brodels

11-10-2004, 11:14 PM

He doesn't seem to be confident with his shot this season. He needs to catch the ball and let it fly if he's wide open from behind the three point line. It's that simple. He should't put the ball on the floor ever unless he absolutely has to.

If he would just catch it and shoot it when he's got some daylight he would be fine. Hopefully he'll realize that.

Aggie Hoopsfan

11-10-2004, 11:19 PM

It's not a confidence problem Brodels. I saw an interview at the start of the season where Bowen said he had been working on an "in between" game to compliment his three point shooting over the summer, and that he wanted to be able to take it to the bucket off the shot fake on the outside this year.

Someone *cough Pop cough* needs to tell him to knock off the game development shit and stick to D and the 3.

E20

11-10-2004, 11:28 PM

Give Bowen a year to develop that sort of game during practice bouts. Right now Bowen should be sticking to three's. If the defender is total garbage and if it looks like he has the step or can take him then he should, but right now calm down and get better on the dribble drive,pump fake, fadeaway game.

bigzak25

11-11-2004, 10:59 AM

well shit, we have people complaining that bruce can't contribute enough offensively and then others saying we only want your 3's and D.

i understand the point, but I have no problem with BB continuing his experiment with the in between game in November. If it's hurting more than it's helping, I'm sure Pop will get on his ass about it around mid season....

Shelly

11-11-2004, 11:11 AM

And here I thought he had a few pretty nice jump shots that went in last night????

ChumpDumper

11-11-2004, 11:26 AM

All Bruce's points were in between last night.

Make up your minds about what you want....

GoSpurs21

11-11-2004, 11:35 AM

some people just like to whine for whining sake

I too enjoyed Bruces offense last night

Marcus Bryant

11-11-2004, 11:44 AM

I'd say Bruce Bruce is about just right when it comes to his offense. In some respects it is good to have a guy like him who is content to spot up, make some cuts, and generally stay out of the way of his teammates. Sure, perhaps he occasionally passes up a shot he should have taken but given his ability and his role I think that is preferable to someone who will just fire at will. I also like the fact that he is willing to put the ball on the floor and attack the rim occasionally.

No player is perfect, but I don't think Bowen's flaws are that horrible.

BigVee

11-11-2004, 12:39 PM

I agree, as long as he makes a quick move and shoots. The problem is when he starts to yo-yo around like he thinks he is Dr. J.

Spurminator

11-11-2004, 12:47 PM

He missed a lot fewer shots than the person he was guarding... I'll take it.

Aggie Hoopsfan

11-11-2004, 01:01 PM

bigzak,

I'd argue we don't have enough shots to go aroudn on offense as it is, between Tim, Manu, Tony, Barry, and DBrown. You've gotta feed Rasho too.

Who would you rather have shooting? Manu/Tony/Barry, or Bowen.

Bowen did a decent job last night, but let's be honest - everyone on the Spurs team had a good game last night.

timvp

11-11-2004, 01:01 PM

I hate when Bowen puts the ball on the ground. He was best in his 2003 form when he either shot the corner three or passed the ball. When he puts the ball on the ground, his midrange shot is below average at best and he's not a skilled passer.

Also like 2003, Bowen can get out in the break and score some points. He's one of the faster players in the league at his position, so he should be able to get one or two fast break layups a game. I also wouldn't mind it if he drove the ball all the way to the rack and tried to finish. I have a problem with how he pump fakes the three and then drives to about ten feet out and stops. That doesn't do anything other than ruin the spacing on the floor.

Basically, he needs to watch old Sean Elliott tape. Elliott would either take that corner shot or attack the basket. He didn't settle for the in-between, off the dribble BS.

Marcus Bryant

11-11-2004, 01:08 PM

Who would you rather have shooting? Manu/Tony/Barry, or Bowen.

The flow of the offense, time left on the shot clock, and quality of the look factor in. Also are you saying that Bowen is not an accurate shooter? If this discussion was in regards to who you would want at the line then sure, Bowen would be close to the bottom of the list.

This discussion has the feel of last year's bitching about the one jumpshot Rose would take per game. Whatever it is, let it go man.

bigzak25

11-11-2004, 01:31 PM

I'd argue we don't have enough shots to go aroudn on offense as it is, between Tim, Manu, Tony, Barry, and DBrown. You've gotta feed Rasho too.

Who would you rather have shooting? Manu/Tony/Barry, or Bowen.

Manu and Barry can shoot whatever shot they feel is a good one...i give them free reign. Tony should not be shooting deep outside shots. Bruce should take what is given to him. I'm not looking for BB to be our second or even third scorer, but if he can continue to have efficient offensive games while still busting ass on D, I think that's what we all want. I will concede the fact that come playoffs, offensively, his 3 point shooting will be what we need the most, and if his 3pt % suffers from his in between game freelancing, then you are right.

As said, it's early, let see if he can develop some consistency here, and if not, I think we can trust in Pop to pull his reigns back.

Aggie Hoopsfan

11-11-2004, 01:52 PM

I don't have a problem with Bowen doing something if the shot clock is running down. I do have a problem with him taking drives early in the offensive possession, and I cringe anytime he puts the ball on the floor, particularly if he is going baseline, because you know that one-legged 10 foot half ass floater that never goes in is coming.

I'm sorry Marcus, we can't all be as knowledgeable as you about basketball :rolleyes

Marcus Bryant

11-11-2004, 01:55 PM

Bowen attacking the basket is a good thing because he is often likely to catch his defender napping. Sure, I'd like to see him attack the rack rather than pull up, but once again, we are the top of a molehill cum mountain.

bigzak25

11-11-2004, 02:25 PM

I don't have a problem with Bowen doing something if the shot clock is running down. I do have a problem with him taking drives early in the offensive possession,

I have to agree that this is definitely NOT the preferred option early in the shot clock. I'll have to watch that more carefully. As you said though, 10 secs or less, you gotta take what the D gives you.

Marcus Bryant

11-11-2004, 02:29 PM

Bowen's a good enough shot that if he has a good look early in the shot clock then he should take it. As for his drives, that is simply to keep the defense honest. During his career as a Spur he has been fairly wise as to when and how many times he puts the ball on the floor. While I am inclined to feel that he should attack the rim when he drives, one should be mindful of his FT%. In his case it might be preferable for him to take the pull up jumper...well, at least a good case could be made.

wildbill2u

11-11-2004, 02:49 PM

Dude, either shoot the three or pass the rock. Please quit trying to imitate Manu breaking down his man off the dribble.

That is all.

For years everyone yelled at Bowen that he was too one-dimensional. He neede to develop some offense--and the advice was always to learn to drive off the faked three and either go to the hole or hit the pull up jumper. This is, and was, logical advice--for a young player. But you can't teach an old dog, etc. etc. :nope

He's trying to do what everyone suggested. And may get desperate to do it as he gets older, loses a step on his defensive skills and faces more criticism.

Morphgizmo

11-11-2004, 03:05 PM

Bruce has a come a long way with regards to offensive versatility. But then again, that's not saying much.

It's not so much his 'shot selection' that bothers me as it is his decision making with the ball in hand. The ugliest play of the game last night involved him plowing over his defender en route to the basket while Barry stood in the corner all by himself.

I'm a big Bowen fan but I would rather he limit his offense to 16 feet and out. If the corner jumper is contested take one or two dribbles inside the arc for the 16-18 footer. If that's taken away just swing the ball back around to Manu/Duncan/Parker/Barry/Brown/Beno and let them be the creators.

bigzak25

11-11-2004, 03:14 PM

well said morph....

The ugliest play of the game last night involved him plowing over his defender en route to the basket while Barry stood in the corner all by himself.

eek....that was ugly....

Ghost Writer

11-11-2004, 03:41 PM

Bowen blows.

We've been over this.

Marcus Bryant

11-11-2004, 03:43 PM

So does Payton. Too bad we don't have him on the cap for two more seasons at the max.

Ghost Writer

11-11-2004, 03:51 PM

You won't bait me.

Payton is having a better season so far that your poster boy Parker.

And we didn't have to re-up Payton if we got him from Seattle. That was your stupid, untrue caveat.

Payton went to Milwaukee and walked to LA and now is in Boston.

All we needed Payton was for a season or two of titles and then he'd be gone.

How's Hedo?

Rick Von Braun

11-11-2004, 03:53 PM

Good talk.

I think MB and Morphgizmo made good points.

We all wanted Bruce to add another dimension to his game. If Bruce takes it all the way to the basket, we may have even more problems. First, Bruce is not good at finishing near the rim (I've never seen him finishing strong at the rack in traffic). Moreover, if he takes the foul, his FT% is horrid (and it will put even more pressure on him).

I also share the feeling that when he puts the ball on the floor, something bad will happen. It is not about the mid-range jumper that he usually misses. It is more about the decision making when he does. When the pull up jumper is denied by good D, he starts dribbling with the ball and doesn't know what to do with it. This usually ends up in a turnover, or a forced pass with the clock expiring. In other words, bad possesion. If he misses the pull up jumper, so be it, he doesn't take so many of those. If the shot is denied though, kick it out immediately to Manu/Barry/TP, don't wait or try to create something.

A small statistical tidbit based on these observations. Bruce TO/48min are up from 1.65 in the 03-04 season, to 3.3 in the 04-05 season. The is very telling that he is trying to create something with the ball in his hands and failing badly.

I am not concerned though. I am quite sure he will realize this, or Pop will make him do it http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smispin.gif.

Marcus Bryant

11-11-2004, 03:56 PM

Sorry, that caveat was real since Payton had a trade kicker which he threatened to use at the time. Try again.

Parker is all of 22 years old. When Payton turned 22 he'd yet to play in a NBA game. Parker has 3 seasons of starting experience under his belt. You weren't able to assess his talent since what you know about the game begins and ends with the boxscore.

How's CWhitney?

Ghost Writer

11-11-2004, 03:58 PM

While I appreciate RVB's statistical analysis, you could put a 6-year-old in the front row of the SBC and by the second quarter he could tell you who is the worst starter on the Spurs.

Bowen ain't gonna expand his game at age 32.

That's like expecting Malik Rose to hit jumpshots after 8 years in the NBA.

Not gonna happen.

timvp

11-11-2004, 11:42 PM

Ghost, if Bowen hits close to 45% from both the field and from beyond the three-point line like he did in 2003, plus play the great perimeter defense ... he's an invaluable part of the team. I'll agree that so far this season (and for much of last season) Bowen has struggled. But once he understands his role, he should be able to get back to that level.

Kori Ellis

11-11-2004, 11:44 PM

(and for much of last season)

That's crap. Bowen struggled for the first two months of last season, like he does every year. And he struggled in a couple games in the Lakers series. That doesn't constitute "much" of last season.

timvp

11-11-2004, 11:56 PM

That's crap. Bowen struggled for the first two months of last season, like he does every year. And he struggled in a couple games in the Lakers series. That doesn't constitute "much" of last season.

I was actually being kind. It probably should have said ALL of last season. He shot worse from the field, worse from the three-point line, averaged less points, had the same number of assists yet higher turnover numbers and did so in more minutes than the previous season.

Against the Lakers, he shot 28% from the field. In 2003 against the Lakers, he shot 55.8% from the field and 65.4% from beyond the arc while averaging 11.2 points per game. You can actuall say that his dropoff cost the Spurs a championship.

It's like he concentrated on hitting free-throws at an improved rate (58%) and adding an "in-between" game, instead of just sticking with what brought the Spurs a championship.

Kori Ellis

11-12-2004, 12:02 AM

I admit he sucked against the Lakers. But the rest of your stuff is B.S.

Don't look for him to have another season shooting-wise like 2002-03 -- it's not going to happen. That was a fluke year.

His field goal percentage last year was higher than his field goal percentage in any of his other season other than 2002-03. The other number differences you speak of are very inconsequential -- there's not much difference between him averaging 6.9 points and 7.1 points.

Bowen's one-on-one defense hasn't dropped off at all. He will always get killed on the "Laker play" of last season because he (nor almost anyone else) can fight thru those kind of screens.

The only thing I agree with is that he needs not to go to his in between game so much. But all of you are bitching about that on the wrong night -- because against Golden State his in between game was actually effective.

timvp

11-12-2004, 12:09 AM

Well he better hope it wasn't a fluke, because without that type of production the Spurs don't win a championship and his starting job is on its last legs.

Okay enough of that ... :makeout

Kori Ellis

11-12-2004, 12:11 AM

Well he better hope it wasn't a fluke, because without that type of production the Spurs don't win a championship and his starting job is on its last legs.

Brent Barry's job is to hit 3's and give the offense a boost. Bowen's job is defend and knock down a couple shots every once in a while. If he sticks to basics, he's not going anywhere. Devin isn't even close to ready to take his job.