What is Bowen's worth?

[Timmy!]

No doubt he's 1 of the best def player...too bad his game is offset by his sh*tty offense. Ok so he's pretty good w/ the 3's but as a starter who averages more than 30 min per game & only scores around 5-6 pts., he's an offensive liabilty. It would be interesting to see the plus/minus stats with & without him on the court. Just wondering with SAS team def approach, would it be better to have an avg defender with better off game in the 3-spot?

[timvp]

This reminds me of when Spurs fans turned on David in his final couple years in the league. Now it's Bowen who gets blamed after every loss.

[Kori Ellis]

The Spurs aren't going to trade Bowen. Their bench needs to improve, their starting center needs to improve. The Big 3 plus Bowen are fine.

[johnpaulwall21]

bowens not in the same league as david, bowens minutes need to be reduced especially in the crunch time. and i think he definately needs to start comin off of the bench.

[Timmy!]

I didn't say that. just trying to figure out if he's helping to hurting the team w/ the minutes that he plays.

[Kori Ellis]

bowens not in the same league as david, bowens minutes need to be reduced especially in the crunch time. and i think he definately needs to start comin off of the bench.

Ridiculous.

[ChumpDumper]

:lol

Ok. Since Bowen is worthless, he can't be traded.

End of thread.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

timmay*

[Kori Ellis]

No doubt he's 1 of the best def player...too bad his game is offset by his sh*tty offense. Ok so he's pretty good w/ the 3's but as a starter who averages more than 30 min per game & only scores around 5-6 pts., he's an offensive liabilty. It would be interesting to see the plus/minus stats with & without him on the court. Just wondering with SAS team def approach, would it be better to have an avg defender with better off game in the 3-spot?

On the season, he has the second best total plus/minus on the team, right after Duncan.

[RC's Boss]

[QUOTE=ChumpDumper]:lol

Ok. Since Bowen is worthless, he can't be traded.

End of thread. :lmao

[T Park]

these bowen haters make me sick.....

[Pistons < Spurs]

I'm not suggesting the Spurs should trade or bench Bowen.

But out of curiosity, what do Spur fans think Bowen could realistically bring in a trade scenario? How much do you think the rest of league values him? Would there be many teams after him if he was on the block?

I don't personally think he's appreciated enough around the league. But because he's such a specialty type player, I don't know if there would really be alot of interest in him.

your thoughts?

[RC's Boss]

Bench is a problem, but I think the change needs to be at the 2 spot since we can't trade Bruce. Not sure if there's one out there, but we need a consistent 20ppg scorer on the perimeter that can play at least a little d. Off season that is.

[Kori Ellis]

I'm not suggesting the Spurs should trade or bench Bowen.

But out of curiosity, what do Spur fans think Bowen could realistically bring in a trade scenario? How much do you think the rest of league values him? Would there be many teams after him if he was on the block?

I don't personally think he's appreciated enough around the league. But because he's such a specialty type player, I don't know if there would really be alot of interest in him.

your thoughts?

Pretty much every GM in the league would want him. He's one of the top perimeter defenders in the game and he doesn't make much money.

[Timmy!]

On the season, he has the second best total plus/minus on the team, right after Duncan.

thanx...this what I was looking to find. I'm not trying to bash Bruce, just looking to see his efficiency. when there are nights where his man scores 30+ and he's scoring 6...you have to wonder.

[Kori Ellis]

thanx...this what I was looking to find. I'm not trying to bash Bruce, just looking to see his efficiency. when there are nights where his man scores 30+ and he's scoring 6...you have to wonder.


For some of the season, he was even ahead of Tim in +/-. Now, Duncan is first, Bowen's second and Parker's third in total +/-.

Look at the column in the far right.

http://www.popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/teamstats.cgi?team=SAS&type=totals

[anonymous coward]

this site is more realist

http://www.82games.com/0607/0607SAS.HTM

[Kori Ellis]

this site is more realist

http://www.82games.com/0607/0607SAS.HTM


Those are probably pretty similar to the per game stats on Popcorn Machine. I posted the link to the season totals, not the per games.

[RC's Boss]

Pretty much every GM in the league would want him. He's one of the top perimeter defenders in the game and he doesn't make much money.
which means we'd get shit 4 him. so he stays :tu

[RC's Boss]

my battery went out on my keyboard. this on-screen one sucks soiled ass

[anonymous coward]

Those are probably pretty similar to the per game stats on Popcorn Machine. I posted the link to the season totals, not the per games.

practically nothing similar

[Timmy!]

this site is more realist

http://www.82games.com/0607/0607SAS.HTM

Ok help me out here (I flunked statistics in school) but how is it that he ranked 1st/2nd in Kori's link to 6th and in the red here?

[Kori Ellis]

practically nothing similar

Are the 82games.com stats per 48 minutes or what?

Most NBA teams are using the popcorn machine stats this year, that's why I usually go there.

[ChumpDumper]

How can you claim one list is more "realist" if you don't know what they are saying?

[Kori Ellis]

NBA.com shows Bowen third after Duncan and Parker.

http://www.nba.com/statistics/lenovo/lenovo_sort.jsp?pcomb=1&season=22006&split=9&team=Spurs

[timvp]

practically nothing similar

Uh, yeah it is. Popcorn has Bowen over Parker by 10 points in the +/- stats. Levono and 82games have Parker +3 over Bowen.

In other words, all three sites show that Bowen is as important to this team as anyone in the Big 3.

[Kori Ellis]

Ok help me out here (I flunked statistics in school) but how is it that he ranked 1st/2nd in Kori's link to 6th and in the red here?


Here's the +/- for the Spurs on 82games.com per 48 minutes

http://www.82games.com/0607/0607SAS1.HTM

I don't know what that other link is showing.

[anonymous coward]

Are the 82games.com stats per 48 minutes or what?

Most NBA teams are using the popcorn machine stats this year, that's why I usually go there.

i dont know, but i think it reflect better the reality

[ChumpDumper]

You're supposed to say "I don't know what it is, but I think they reflect better the reality."

[timvp]

The "production" category that 82games has is worthless when it comes to the Spurs because most of the time Bowen is guarding the other team's shooting guards. So that inflates Manu's "production" and decreases Bowen's.

"Production" measures the PER of the player versus the average PER of the opponents at the same positions. On some teams that could be a useful stat. But not for the Spurs.

[Kori Ellis]

i dont know, but i think it reflect better the reality
Read my post right above this.

The link you provided isn't +/- stats. Otherwise the Spurs would be losing every game with all those players in the negative.

[Budkin]

Bowen is the fucking man, nuff said!

[Que Gee]

bowens not in the same league as david, bowens minutes need to be reduced especially in the crunch time. and i think he definately needs to start comin off of the bench.

I don't know that he needs to come off the bench...BUT, there are certain teams that there is no reason he needs to play as many minutes as he does, and Fin/Barry should play more. Tonight is an example. There isn't anyone on the Jazz, that Bowen needs to run around and guard....So, sit him more, play the "offensive game" and let Barry and Finley run around.

[RC's Boss]

You're supposed to say "I don't know what it is, but I think they reflect better the reality."
:lol down boy i think english isn't their primary language

[Kori Ellis]

I don't know that he needs to come off the bench...BUT, there are certain teams that there is no reason he needs to play as many minutes as he does, and Fin/Barry should play more. Tonight is an example. There isn't anyone on the Jazz, that Bowen needs to run around and guard....So, sit him more, play the "offensive game" and let Barry and Finley run around.

So Finley/Barry should have guarded AK47 and Harpring?

[anonymous coward]

Read my post right above this.

The link you provided isn't +/- stats. Otherwise the Spurs would be losing every game with all those players in the negative.

did you see the other teams stats?, remember that they are mesuared by the same bar

[Kori Ellis]

did you see the other teams stats?, remember that they are mesuared by the same bar

Yeah, I guess you still don't understand the production stats aren't the +/- stats.

[Nero]

Please can we stop saying Fin/Barry as if they're fungible? One is one of the worst 5 spot-up shooters in the L while the other is one of top 5 spot up shooters in the L. TYTY

[Timmy!]

I don't know that he needs to come off the bench...BUT, there are certain teams that there is no reason he needs to play as many minutes as he does, and Fin/Barry should play more. Tonight is an example. There isn't anyone on the Jazz, that Bowen needs to run around and guard....So, sit him more, play the "offensive game" and let Barry and Finley run around.

Exactly...so maybe we give up a few more pts. with Bowen on the bench but score more to make up the diff and win a few more close games. No one is looking to trade Bowen but maybe manage/tweak his playing time in certain match-ups situations to get more out of our offense.

[ChumpDumper]

I say we get another swingman who might actually be able to justify taking minutes from Bowen someday.

[anonymous coward]

How can you claim one list is more "realist" if you don't know what they are saying?
how the fuck, you know that?

[ChumpDumper]

how the fuck, you know that?Because you said you asked what they meant.

Did you forget that?

Need a link?

[RC's Boss]

Fight

[Nero]

I say we get another swingman who might actually be able to justify taking minutes from Bowen someday.

Exactly. Is Bowen a great player? No. Could we use a SF who could hold his own rebounding and contribute a little more to the offense? yes. Do we have such a swingmen? Absolutely not.

[spurs_in_7]

stop banning me fucking bitch and let me defend my ass, fucking slut

[Kori Ellis]

stop banning me fucking bitch and let me defend my ass, fucking slut

:wtf
Who are you talking to?

[Timmy!]

stop banning me fucking bitch and let me defend my ass, fucking slut

Whoa! Tourette?

[Ronaldo McDonald]

No doubt he's 1 of the best def player...too bad his game is offset by his sh*tty offense. Ok so he's pretty good w/ the 3's but as a starter who averages more than 30 min per game & only scores around 5-6 pts., he's an offensive liabilty. It would be interesting to see the plus/minus stats with & without him on the court. Just wondering with SAS team def approach, would it be better to have an avg defender with better off game in the 3-spot?

Bowens worth I think depends on not so much what he does as a player because you know what you're going to get out of him- there are no surprises-but instead how many top-tier teams there are in the league, that are willing to give up some young potential or an expiring contract for a guy who's in his mid-thirties and on the downslope of his career, to have a better chance at winning a championship.

Right now there are only about 4, maybe 5 teams that I can think of that MIGHT be slightly interested in him. Whereas in the mid 90's he would have definitely been more valuable because of the higher concentration of high-caliber teams that would have risked giving up potential/expiring contracts for him.

Right now I wouldn't know who would take him. What I do know is SA wouldn't get much in return.

[RC's Boss]

Whoa! Tourette?
:lol

[ploto]

Popcorn does totals which obviously are impacted by minutes played. But then again we all know that some guy can have some crazy two minutes of garbage time that throws off his whole per 48 stats. We also know that some guys play primarily against the best players on the opponent, so it is not a clear measure to compare players on the same team. If you have good +/- stats and you cover the best perimeter scorer on the opponent night in and hight out, you are clearly very valuable to your team.

[Kori Ellis]

Popcorn does totals which obviously are impacted by minutes played. But then again we all know that some guy can have some crazy two minutes of garbage time that throws off his whole per 48 stats.

Popcorn also has per game and per 48. You can just click it.

[2centsworth]

Bowen's offense ranks about 7-10 on the list of things the spurs need to change or improve. His rebounding is about 3-4 on the list.

Spurs are in dire need of a center or power forward who can rebound and get cheap baskets. Then followed right after that they need a legit backup PG.

[ploto]

Popcorn also has per game and per 48. You can just click it.
Ouch- those don't bode well for the Matt Bonner fan club.

[LEONARD]

Mavs send George to the Spurs for Bowen? I don't know...

[Viva Las Espuelas]

I think Bowen isn't doing that good because we don't have a consistent center. Consistent meaning the player and quality of play covering the 5 spot. I don't recall him having a so-so year since he's been with us. He had Dave then Rasho. I'm not comparing Rasho to Dave. I think he's overcompensating for lack of a true, consistent center and not concentrating on his game that he's know for.

[wildbill2u]

For some of the season, he was even ahead of Tim in +/-. Now, Duncan is first, Bowen's second and Parker's third in total +/-.

Look at the column in the far right.

http://www.popcornmachine.net/cgi-bin/teamstats.cgi?team=SAS&type=totals
I went to the site and found some interesting infomation you didn't present.

The column in the far right only tells you the +/- POINTS Differential when he's in the game, usually with the Big Three so that stat is somewhat biased in his favor. Besides, it's not very applicable when you figure that in some blowout games our first team is out and the scrubs in while the other team has its best out there trying to comeback.

Much more interesting is the stats/rating you don't mention:

Help Value (which is rebounds, blocks, steals, TOs per minute) Of all the roster, he is better than only Butler and is a very far behind most of the other players.

Productivity (which adds Points to Help Value) Again, he is the lowest rated Spur with the exception of Butler. Outside the Big Three, most of the rest are in the .50s range. Bowen is .36

Efficiency Rating: Adds up everything in the stats. Once again, Bowen is next to dead last Butler.

These stats say he's behind Beno and Williams, not to mention the rest of the bench, in every category.

Stats aren't everything, but its pretty obvious that Bowen isn't giving us much but defense. And when you are giving up 20-30 points differential against a great player, I'd rather let that guy try for 50 and wear himself out defending his counterpoint on the Spurs for a change.

No one ever mentions that most teams leave Bowen alone because he isn't much of a threat. They can afford to play 5 on our 4 and let him have his occasional 3.

I like Bowen's defense--but this site was an eye opener that confirmed what I'd been intuitively thinking. Bowen's defensive abilities may not be good enough to overcome his other liabilities.

[Kori Ellis]

I would never expect Bowen to have good numbers in Productivity or Efficiency Rating.

The guy was asking about +/-, which is what I posted. Everyone knows that Bowen is a bad rebounder and a limited scorer.

When/If there's ever a guy on the Spurs worth taking Bowen's place in the starting lineup, I'd agree with everything you said. But right now, the Spurs don't have that guy. For three years, everyone here has been rallying for a Bowen replacement to eventually take over. The Spurs haven't found that guy.

But right now, I think the swing spots are hardly a worry compared to the other holes in the Spurs lineup - starting center, backup point guard.

[rascal]

I went to the site and found some interesting infomation you didn't present.

The column in the far right only tells you the +/- POINTS Differential when he's in the game, usually with the Big Three so that stat is somewhat biased in his favor. Besides, it's not very applicable when you figure that in some blowout games our first team is out and the scrubs in while the other team has its best out there trying to comeback.

Much more interesting is the stats/rating you don't mention:

Help Value (which is rebounds, blocks, steals, TOs per minute) Of all the roster, he is better than only Butler and is a very far behind most of the other players.

Productivity (which adds Points to Help Value) Again, he is the lowest rated Spur with the exception of Butler. Outside the Big Three, most of the rest are in the .50s range. Bowen is .36

Efficiency Rating: Adds up everything in the stats. Once again, Bowen is next to dead last Butler.

These stats say he's behind Beno and Williams, not to mention the rest of the bench, in every category.

Stats aren't everything, but its pretty obvious that Bowen isn't giving us much but defense. And when you are giving up 20-30 points differential against a great player, I'd rather let that guy try for 50 and wear himself out defending his counterpoint on the Spurs for a change.

No one ever mentions that most teams leave Bowen alone because he isn't much of a threat. They can afford to play 5 on our 4 and let him have his occasional 3.

I like Bowen's defense--but this site was an eye opener that confirmed what I'd been intuitively thinking. Bowen's defensive abilities may not be good enough to overcome his other liabilities.


Great post. Bowen is more of a liability now since the spurs are getting very little offensively from the 5 and the bench. His defense does not make up for his deficiencies in other areas.

[wildbill2u]

Bowen's so far behind everyone else in those ratings that you'd think we'd be giving some time to Williams and maybe starting Finley. I know that sounds ridiculous but my God, he's such a liability in every other phase of the game. With the higher scoring allowed by the rules changes, his defensive ability has less value.

It's not like he's a drop-dead shut down guy any more. Hell, let Kobe try to go for 80--and get their team out of sync.

And there's a reason why Bowen is often found alone in the corner for his occasional three. The other teams are ignoring him and playing their five on our four, trying to take our Big Three out of their game.

[T Park]

I see the old Bowen sucks crowd is Back out. Sickening.

[timvp]

Stats aren't everything, but its pretty obvious that Bowen isn't giving us much but defense.

It took stats to tell you that?

Bowen is a lockdown perimeter defender. That's it. He's not going to do anything else for you. It's been that way since he's gotten here and it'll be that way until he leaves.

Bowen has been good enough to help this team win two championships. He's still shutting people down at the same rate as he has over the years. If he's lost a step, it hasn't effected his bottomline yet. All of his defensive productivity stats are the same or better than they've been in recent years.

Bowen is not the problem. Just like Tim, Tony and Manu aren't the problem.

You'd think Spurs fans would be able to notice the chinks in the armor. There are a lot of them (backup PG, center, backup center, backup SF, etc.), but instead Spurs fans try to pin the blame on one of the few things this team has going right.

[Spurs Brazil]

Bruce is great.

We need CENTERS

Bruce is not the problem

[wildbill2u]

I don't think he sucks. He's just the focal point of a problem at SF that everyone has complained about for years. And when you look at the comparative stats to the rest of our players, it is an eye opener.

On most teams, most of whom have a better all-round player at that position, he'd be a defensive specialist from the bench. I don't know of another one-dimensional defensive SF that starts in this league.

The lack of rebounding, offense and defense from our changes at the Center position simply makes our other deficiencies at SF more glaring and harder to cover up in games.

[timvp]

+/- Stats for the Last 10 Games
B. Bowen +78
T. Duncan +76
T. Parker +58
M. Ginobili +34
B. Barry +24
M. Bonner +15
R. Horry +9
F. Oberto -2
J. Butler -5
E. Williams -6
F. Elson -9
B. Udrih -12
J. Vaughn -18
M. Finley -48


And Bowen is the problem?

Oka-aa-aa--aaa-a-aaa-ay. :dizzy

[LEONARD]

Go Fin!! :fro

[timvp]

I don't think he sucks. He's just the focal point of a problem at SF that everyone has complained about for years.
People have complained about getting a backup Long Small Forward to eventually replace Bowen. I haven't seen many people complaining about Bowen throughout the years.


And when you look at the comparative stats to the rest of our players, it is an eye opener.
His stats are better than they were during the championship years. Of course his offensive and efficiency stats are going to look ugly. He doesn't do anything but stand in the corner and shoot threes.

But the Spurs don't need anything else out of a small forward. They have the best power forward of all-time and two All-Star guards. You can't trot five players out there who need to get the ball to be effective.


On most teams, most of whom have a better all-round player at that position, he'd be a defensive specialist from the bench. I don't know of another one-dimensional defensive SF that starts in this league.
I don't know another SF in the league who has multiple championship rings. I also don't know any other SF in the league who have been first or second team All-Defense as many times as Bowen has.

The Spurs win championships with their defense. Bowen is their best perimeter defender. Without Bowen, this team's defense would be horrible.

[wildbill2u]

No one has addressed the issue of why the other teams leave Bowen alone, preferring to play their five on our four--or maybe our three if their defensive scheme is designed to concentrate on our Big Three.

So his lack of offensive capability makes it more difficult for our Big Three to operate as effectively as they might. That isn't a stat that can be qualitatively judged with any accuracy, but it is a problem.

[Fillmoe]

http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/307687/2/istockphoto_307687_chump_change_leftover.jpg

[Kori Ellis]

+/- Stats for the Last 10 Games
B. Bowen +78
T. Duncan +76
T. Parker +58
M. Ginobili +34
B. Barry +24
M. Bonner +15
R. Horry +9
F. Oberto -2
J. Butler -5
E. Williams -6
F. Elson -9
B. Udrih -12
J. Vaughn -18
M. Finley -48


And Bowen is the problem?

Oka-aa-aa--aaa-a-aaa-ay. :dizzy

What the hell Finley?

[angel_luv]

What the hell Finley?


Maybe he is really on Cuban's pay roll. :lol

[LEONARD]

Maybe he is really on Cuban's pay roll. :lol

All part of Cuban's plan... :fro

[wildbill2u]

+/- Stats for the Last 10 Games
B. Bowen +78
T. Duncan +76
T. Parker +58
M. Ginobili +34
B. Barry +24
M. Bonner +15
R. Horry +9
F. Oberto -2
J. Butler -5
E. Williams -6
F. Elson -9
B. Udrih -12
J. Vaughn -18
M. Finley -48


And Bowen is the problem?

Oka-aa-aa--aaa-a-aaa-ay. :dizzy
+/- stats merely show the point differential when you play your minutes. In Bowens case, all his minutes are with the Big Three so of course his +/- pont differential figures are going to be high.

He never plays without those guys because his other liabilities are so high that he'd really drag down our productivity and efficiency if you played him with the bench players.

Those +/- stats are the least reliable method of evaluation in my opinion.

[timvp]

In Bowens case, all his minutes are with the Big Three so of course his +/- pont differential figures are going to be high.

A) If that was the case, then way isn't Oberto's +/- better? Bowen plays a lot of time with one or two members of the Big Three. Oberto, over the last ten games, has played almost all his minutes with the Big Three.

B) Explain the following stats:

When Paired With Robert Horry
Bowen +47
Duncan +26
Parker +20
Ginobili +2

When Paired With Francisco Elson
Bowen +13
Duncan +10
Parker +7
Ginobili -10

When Paired With Michael Finley
Bowen +7
Duncan +6
Parker -19
Ginobili -28

When Paired With Brent Barry
Duncan +44
Bowen +31
Parker +26
Ginobili +25

So when paired with the four main bench players, Bowen's +/- is higher than that of any of the Big Three.

But I thought Bowen's +/- were inflated because of playing with the Big Three?

Guess not.

:hat

[bdictjames]

We dont need offense, we could get it from Tony, Manu and Duncan.

[Timmy!]

I went to the site and found some interesting infomation you didn't present.

The column in the far right only tells you the +/- POINTS Differential when he's in the game, usually with the Big Three so that stat is somewhat biased in his favor. Besides, it's not very applicable when you figure that in some blowout games our first team is out and the scrubs in while the other team has its best out there trying to comeback.

Much more interesting is the stats/rating you don't mention:

Help Value (which is rebounds, blocks, steals, TOs per minute) Of all the roster, he is better than only Butler and is a very far behind most of the other players.

Productivity (which adds Points to Help Value) Again, he is the lowest rated Spur with the exception of Butler. Outside the Big Three, most of the rest are in the .50s range. Bowen is .36

Efficiency Rating: Adds up everything in the stats. Once again, Bowen is next to dead last Butler.

These stats say he's behind Beno and Williams, not to mention the rest of the bench, in every category.

Stats aren't everything, but its pretty obvious that Bowen isn't giving us much but defense. And when you are giving up 20-30 points differential against a great player, I'd rather let that guy try for 50 and wear himself out defending his counterpoint on the Spurs for a change.

No one ever mentions that most teams leave Bowen alone because he isn't much of a threat. They can afford to play 5 on our 4 and let him have his occasional 3.

I like Bowen's defense--but this site was an eye opener that confirmed what I'd been intuitively thinking. Bowen's defensive abilities may not be good enough to overcome his other liabilities.

This IS a great post and confirms what I've been also feeling intuatively. I'm glad this thread has evolved into a cerebral discussion. So leaving out trades and acquisitions out of it (keeping our current line-up as is). Would we be better off shaving some of Bruce's time to someone else to provide a little more horsepower on the offensive end?

Slight tangent but remeber a few seasons back when Barry was our backup point during the playoffs....has this been discussed as another potential tweak?

[Kori Ellis]

When Paired With Michael Finley
Bowen +7
Duncan +6
Parker -19
Ginobili -28

Parker and Ginobili hate Finley. :lmao

[Timmy!]

We dont need offense, we could get it from Tony, Manu and Duncan.

Have you been watching our recent games? :drunk

[Ronaldo McDonald]

What the hell Finley?

No shit. What's even more impressive (but in a good way) is the production differential between him and Barry.

[nkdlunch]

I was gonna start a thread last night that Bowen looked lost out there last night. Mainly because he didn't have a superstar to guard. Not critisizing Bowen, just what I saw

[wildbill2u]

A) If that was the case, then way isn't Oberto's +/- better? Bowen plays a lot of time with one or two members of the Big Three. Oberto, over the last ten games, has played almost all his minutes with the Big Three.

B) Explain the following stats:

When Paired With Robert Horry
Bowen +47
Duncan +26
Parker +20
Ginobili +2

When Paired With Francisco Elson
Bowen +13
Duncan +10
Parker +7
Ginobili -10

When Paired With Michael Finley
Bowen +7
Duncan +6
Parker -19
Ginobili -28

When Paired With Brent Barry
Duncan +44
Bowen +31
Parker +26
Ginobili +25

So when paired with the four main bench players, Bowen's +/- is higher than that of any of the Big Three.

But I thought Bowen's +/- were inflated because of playing with the Big Three?

Guess not.

:hatNot the right stats. These point differential stats don't show who else was on the court, simply that he occasionally plays with other players. This is simply a misdirection from the acknowledged problem of efficiency and productivity.

Bowen's individual efficiency and productivity stats speak louder than how he plays with other individuals because they are based on 48 minutes of playing time regardless of who he is on the court with.

Point differential +/- stats are sort of like the stat that says you can drown in a lake that averages a inch deep. True--but it doesn't accurately tell the whole story.

If Bowen was in fact, our second or third best player as you say his +/- stats indicate, he'd be great trade bait to a team that wanted to win now with a low salaried player. And he'd be a perrenial All-star ahead of Parker and Manu. Alas, that isn't the case.

You'll never persuade me that the +/- stats are the best indicator of a players ability and I'll never persuade you to look beyond them so lets just agree to disagree.

[timvp]

:lol

Alright then believe whatever you want. You said that his numbers are inflated because he plays with the Big Three. I show that he is just as effective playing with the bench players and you shoot it down.

I guess if you want to judge a defensive player by his offensive effeciency stats, there's not much I can do. But it's rather odd to try to point out limitations in his game as if this wasn't his sixth season with the team. Everybody knows what he can and can't do ... and it's proven to be enough to win championships.

Bottomline is the Spurs outscore the opponents when Bowen is on the court, no matter who he is on the court with. But I guess outscoring opponents isn't as important as some made up stats that judge a players offensive effeciency.

[SequSpur]

It took stats to tell you that?
Bowen is not the problem. Just like Tim, Tony and Manu aren't the problem.


Bowen is a major part of the problem when you don't have the big man in the middle watching his back anymore. Not only can Bowen not stop anyone anymore, he can't put up points on the other end to counter shit.

Bowen is a problem.

[timvp]

Bowen is a major part of the problem when you don't have the big man in the middle watching his back anymore. Not only can Bowen not stop anyone anymore, he can't put up points on the other end to counter shit.

Bowen is a problem.

And with that, I rest my case.

:smokin

[SequSpur]

And with that, I rest my case.

:smokin

:lol

I have always like Bowen, but I don't need any stats to see that he helps opposing guards get allstar votes and he clearly should not be touching the ball in an offensive set.

Also, his jordanesque ball handling skills are unwatchable.

But yeah, you win.

[RC's Boss]

He can't chase people basline anymore b/c only Tim is there. We picked our poison and chose to go w/ faster centers instead of Rasho who was an ok shot blocker. I don't miss that contract and slow foot speed though.

[wildbill2u]

:lol

Alright then believe whatever you want. You said that his numbers are inflated because he plays with the Big Three. I show that he is just as effective playing with the bench players and you shoot it down.

I guess if you want to judge a defensive player by his offensive effeciency stats, there's not much I can do. But it's rather odd to try to point out limitations in his game as if this wasn't his sixth season with the team. Everybody knows what he can and can't do ... and it's proven to be enough to win championships.

Bottomline is the Spurs outscore the opponents when Bowen is on the court, no matter who he is on the court with. But I guess outscoring opponents isn't as important as some made up stats that judge a players offensive effeciency.
TIMVP you obviously don't even look at all the things that go into these ratings on the site your wife and you picked as giving good comparison stats. Put your cursor on the headings and the items that go to make them up will pop up.

Go back and look up what the Help value is (rebounds, TOs assists, steals, etc.). It has nothing to do with offense. Productivity adds the players points to the HV. Efficiency Rating adds everything up.

It's not as easy to equate the value of a player based on a constantly changing interaction with other players as you seem to think the +/- figure indicates.

But the individual player's Help Value, Productivity and Efficiency ratings per 48 minutes measures solely his personal contributions per 48 minutes. Bowen's individual stats are crummy.

He plays good defense, but the game is changing to a more mobile and higher scoring game. Not many games nowadays have both teams in the 80s so a defensive player isn't as effective or easy to hide as he once was.

"Holding" some player to 25 points while scoring 2 puts a hell of a lot of pressure on the other players to take up the slack. Give TD 25 points, TP 20 and Manu 20, and you've still only got a total of 65 points so thirty or more points have to come from somewhere. With Bowen getting 35 minutes it isn't getting done.

[thewatcher]

TIMVP you obviously don't even look at all the things that go into these ratings on the site your wife and you picked as giving good comparison stats. Put your cursor on the headings and the items that go to make them up will pop up.

Go back and look up what the Help value is (rebounds, TOs assists, steals, etc.). It has nothing to do with offense. Productivity adds the players points to the HV. Efficiency Rating adds everything up.

It's not as easy to equate the value of a player based on a constantly changing interaction with other players as you seem to think the +/- figure indicates.

But the individual player's Help Value, Productivity and Efficiency ratings per 48 minutes measures solely his personal contributions per 48 minutes. Bowen's individual stats are crummy.

He plays good defense, but the game is changing to a more mobile and higher scoring game. Not many games nowadays have both teams in the 80s so a defensive player isn't as effective or easy to hide as he once was.

"Holding" some player to 25 points while scoring 2 puts a hell of a lot of pressure on the other players to take up the slack. Give TD 25 points, TP 20 and Manu 20, and you've still only got a total of 65 points so thirty or more points have to come from somewhere. With Bowen getting 35 minutes it isn't getting done.


exactly my thoughts :clap