Mahinmi and Scola to meet

[Bruno]

I brought up Michael Wright as an example of a guy who isn't even good enough to do much in the NBDL, yet can go to Europe and flourish because that's what short power forwards do in Europe.

A lot of short power forwards are succesfull in nba but they aren't the same kind of players : nba undersized PFs are mainly defenders and/or rebounders and/or jumpshooter and/or quick players.
Scola doesn't fit in these categories and I have a hard time to find a good nba player with Scola's skillset and body .

[timvp]

Garbajosa and Scola were in the same team in different times of their career, and their heights were meassured in the same place (Tau Ceramica's camp), Garbajosa was 2.05 and Scola was 2.06, 1 cm of edge in favor of Scola. ¿where do you get the 'fact' that Garbajosa is taller?

http://www.freeplayers.com/luisscola.html
http://www.fibaeurope.com/eurobasket2005/en/cid_SbGnUV12IgwUcAUu7UmfU1.teamID_362.compID_qMRZd YCZI6EoANOrUf9le2.season_2005.roundID_3769.playerI D_20157.html

Those two links show Garbajosa as an inch taller than Scola. Even if Garbajosa and Scola are the same height, that isn't saying much for Scola seeing how Garbajosa has been a bust.


What I'm saying that IT'S IMPOSSIBLE that Scola would 2 worse than those 2, I'm just showing THE WORST PERFORMANCE POSSIBLE for Scola playing in the NBA.

Garbajosa is a perimeter big -- which has shown to be able to transfer to the NBA. Scola is trying to become the first international short interior power forward in NBA history, while also becoming the highest paid second round draft pick in NBA history.

[ArgSpursFan]

A lot of short power forwards are succesfull in nba but they aren't the same kind of players : nba undersized PFs are mainly defenders and/or rebounders and/or jumpshooter and/or quick players.
Scola doesn't fit in these categories and I have a hard time to find a good nba player with Scola's skillset and body .

I think Karl Malone is/was 6.9 ,wasn´t he?

[Mr. Body]

Timvp is completely hopeless in this thread. :lol

[Bruno]

I think Karl Malone is/was 6.9 ,wasn´t he?

Malone was ten times stronger than Scola and was a good rebounder/defender.

[ploto]

... while also becoming the highest paid second round draft pick in NBA history.
Apples and oranges...

[timvp]

Timvp has irrational hate against Scola. It doesn't matter what you say to him.

Mr. Body either can't read or should just give up on scouting international bigmen.

Nice response to the post where I tried to lead you to the light.

[objective]

Scola is also 2 & 1/2 years younger than Garbajosa.

A reason Garbajosa has had trouble is because he's trying to hit NBA threes because he hit euro threes.

Scola has no such illusions about his range.

[Dartherus]

http://www.freeplayers.com/luisscola.html
http://www.fibaeurope.com/eurobasket2005/en/cid_SbGnUV12IgwUcAUu7UmfU1.teamID_362.compID_qMRZd YCZI6EoANOrUf9le2.season_2005.roundID_3769.playerI D_20157.html

Those two links show Garbajosa as an inch taller than Scola. Even if Garbajosa and Scola are the same height, that isn't saying much for Scola seeing how Garbajosa has been a bust.

I was talking about they both being meassured in the same training camp (where Scola was 1 cm taller), anyway, if you look at euroleague's site (more official than fibaeurope), you'll see Scola listed as 2.07 and Garbajosa 2.05, that's almost one inch of edge for Scola.

http://www.euroleague.net/competition/players/showplayer?gamecode=159&pcode=AJG

http://217.13.116.51/plantillas/jugador.jsp?id=AHV

Anyway, I don't know why do people keep labeling him as 'undersized' when his height is at least average compared with the starting PF of the NBA.

[Kori Ellis]

A lot of short power forwards are succesfull in nba but they aren't the same kind of players : nba undersized PFs are mainly defenders and/or rebounders and/or jumpshooter and/or quick players.
Scola doesn't fit in these categories and I have a hard time to find a good nba player with Scola's skillset and body .

That's kind of timvp's same point, which is why it's hard to tell if his game is going to translate well.

[timvp]

Garbo plays the 3, even though it isn't his best position, because the team needs him to.

He plays less than 25% of his time at small forward. But yeah, that's more of a reason why Scola is a risk. If Scola is a bust on the low block, he's not someone who the Spurs can move over to small forward.


His rebounding numbers look a lot better than the Spurs starting SF (who averages 4 per 48).

Nice excuse making for the worst rebounding big in the league.


And I would say his selection as Eastern Conference Rookie of the Month in December indicates that some appreciate what he does.

It's a bad sign for the Raptors that he's edging out Bustnani for any rookie honors. And Gabajosa winning awards goes to show you how weak this rookie class is, especially in the East.


He also was rather sick for a while and lost about 10 or 15 pounds. He is just now getting back to full strength.

Brezecitis?

[timvp]

What I'd add is, if some GM issued a 12 mill/3year contract on Garbajosa, why some Spurs fans say a player better suited for NBA like Scola (better scorer, faster, stronger and more athletic, and 3 years younger) is not worth of a 10 mill/3year contract....or how Scola is a more risky option than Garbajosa , a player able to get the rookie of the month as soon as he was at full shape ...¿could somebody explain?

Again, free agent vs. second round draft pick.

[timvp]

Apples and oranges...

Second round draft picks and second round draft picks are apples and oranges?

:dizzy

[ploto]

He plays less than 25% of his time at small forward.

Not in the past month since Bosh came back from his injury. He plays the majority of his minutes at the 3- with Bosh, Rasho, and Andrea (when desperate Humphries) at the 4/5.

[objective]

Anyway, I don't know why do people keep labeling him as 'undersized' when his height is at least average compared with the starting PF of the NBA.

anyone who is as big or bigger than Elton Brand, Carlos Boozer, Kenyon Martin, Udonis Haslem, Ben Wallace, or David Lee is soooooooo undersized.

Having 2 inches on Malik Rose makes him super undersized.

What's even more terrible is his hustle and energy. Or his blocking shots of NBA all-stars like Jermaine O'Neal and Elton Brand.

Better to have a zombie who can backtap offensive rebounds like Oberto.

[Mr. Body]

Not in the past month since Bosh came back from his injury. He plays the majority of his minutes at the 3- with Bosh, Rasho, and Andrea (when desperate Humphries) at the 4/5.

Timvp, you're getting completely owned in this thread. :oops You need to give it up. :drunk

[ploto]

It's a bad sign for the Raptors that he's edging out Bustnani for any rookie honors. And Gabajosa winning awards goes to show you how weak this rookie class is, especially in the East.

Given that Andrea won it the next month and they were BOTH chosen for the rookie All-Star team shows your bias.

Where's the Spurs good rookie? Oh yeah, NBDL.

[timvp]

Not in the past month since Bosh came back from his injury. He plays the majority of his minutes at the 3- with Bosh, Rasho, and Andrea (when desperate Humphries) at the 4/5.

You mean the last month where Garbajosa shot 32.6% from the field? :lmao

[Bruno]

That's kind of timvp's same point, which is why it's hard to tell if his game is going to translate well.

Yeah, I agree with timvp's POV. :)

[timvp]

Timvp, you're getting completely owned in this thread. :oops You need to give it up. :drunk

:lmao

You just owned yourself by agreeing with that post. Yeah, Garbajosa has really flourished in the last month by shooting 32%.

If you were half as good at scouting international bigs as you are at evading questions, you might be able to add something to this thread.

[Dartherus]

What I'd add is, if some GM issued a 12 mill/3year contract on Garbajosa, why some Spurs fans say a player better suited for NBA like Scola (better scorer, faster, stronger and more athletic, and 3 years younger) is not worth of a 10 mill/3year contract....or how Scola is a more risky option than Garbajosa , a player able to get the rookie of the month as soon as he was at full shape ...¿could somebody explain?
Again, free agent vs. second round draft pick.
I was talking about absolute VALUE, if Garbajosa has a 12 mill/3year contract, why they consider a player like Scola, more talented, slightly taller, faster, stronger and more athletic, and 3 years younger has less value?

You also admitted that Garbajosa plays only 25% of his time at SF, the rest plays PF or even Center at Toronto, and he does pretty well, being rookie of tha month lately.....

Also, Why a legit 6'9" is labeled as 'undersized' for NBA PF?

[Kori Ellis]

I was talking about absolute VALUE, if Garbajosa has a 12 mill/3year contract, why they consider a player like Scola, more talented, slightly taller, faster, stronger and more athletic, and 3 years younger has less value?

Also, Why a legit 6'9" is labeled as 'undersized' for NBA PF?

Garbajosa's value is different than Scola's value to the Spurs because one is on the open market and one isn't.

[Bruno]

You mean the last month where Garbajosa shot 32.6% from the field? :lmao

or the last month where he has been outrebounded by Ginobili. :spin

[timvp]

or the last month where he has been outrebounded by Ginobili. :spin

Watch out, Bruno, or else Mr. I-Watched-Robertas-Javtokas-in-a-highlight-reel-and-want-to-give-him-the-MLE might say you got owned.

:rollin

[Dartherus]

Watch out, Bruno, or else Mr. I-Watched-Robertas-Javtokas-in-a-highlight-reel-and-want-to-give-him-the-MLE might say you got owned.

:rollin

Timvp, you admitted that Garbajosa plays barely 25% of his time at SF, the rest plays PF or even Center at Toronto, and he does pretty well, being rookie of the month lately (even not being a great rebounder).....

Do you consider Garbajosa would do worse than Oberto or Elson at Spurs for going aside Tim?

Why then so much aversion for a player who is 3 years younger, more fundamentally sound, stronger, faster and more athletic (Garbo not even in his most wet dreams would have gotten the HUGE block Scola got on Jermaine, for just one small example), that is likeley to be 1/2 inch taller?

Also, why a legit 6'9" would be 'undersized' for NBA PF? what is the % of NBA PF taller than that?

Will u answer Timvp?

[MannyIsGod]

:lmao

Has Mr. Body ever posted a legit point? You know when you're arguing big men with Ploto on your side something is wrong. Very wrong.

[timvp]

Timvp, You admitted that Garbajosa plays barely 25% of his time at SF, the rest plays PF or even Center at Toronto, and he does pretty well, being rookie of the month lately (even not being a great rebounder).....

I said less than 25%.

And the EC rookie of the month has more to do with all the other rookies sucking and Garbajosa being older than it does to him actually being good. As a whole this season, Garbajosa has sucked.


Do you consider Garbajosa would do worse¨than Oberto or Elson at Spurs for going aside Tim?

Yes, much worse. He's a bad shooter and can't rebound. The Spurs are a bad rebounding team as it is and Garbajosa would make them way worse.


Why then so many aversion for a player 3 year younger, more fundamentally sound, stronger, faster and more athletic (Garbo not even in his most wet dreams would have gotten the HUGE block Scola got on Jermaine, for just one small example), that is likeley to be 1/2 inch taller?


My aversion is making him the highest paid second rounder in NBA history. If he'd come over for a V-Span type deal, I'd be all for it.


Also, why a legit 6'9" would be 'undersized' for NBA PF? what is the % of NBA PF taller than that?

Most scouts say Scola is closer to 6-foot-8, has short arms and isn't much of an athlete. That makes him undersized. You can be 6-foot-8 and play power forward, but you usually either need to have a huge wingspan or be a super athlete. Scola doesn't fit into either category.


Will u answer Timvp?

Yes.

[ArgSpursFan]

Charles Barkley was a PF for many years ,and he is 6.8.
I belive in Scola.
Charles Smith was 6.9 and He was a hell of a player on his prime years in NY.

[Bruno]

BTW, being rookie of the month in December isn't exactly the sign of being a good player. I remember two years ago a player who has won it (in the west) and ... ;)

[MannyIsGod]

Charles Barkley was a PF for many years ,and he is 6.8.
I belive in Scola.
Charles Smith was 6.9 and He was a hell of a player on his prime years in NY.:lmao @ using a Charles Smith comparison to try to convince Spurs fans. I think you just made Timvp's point for him.

And Scola is nowhere near the talent Barkely was.

[AFBlue]

WHO IS THE BETTER OPTION FOR NEXT YEAR AND AT WHAT COST?!?!?! I still haven't heard anything on this. Roll the dice on Scola...I sincerely doubt he's equal or worse than Elson/Oberto and any PF the Spurs might be able to pick up in the offseason.

[JPB]

He would definitely be an upgrade. Now that's a question of money.

[timvp]

WHO IS THE BETTER OPTION FOR NEXT YEAR AND AT WHAT COST?!?!?! I still haven't heard anything on this. Roll the dice on Scola...I sincerely doubt he's equal or worse than Elson/Oberto and any PF the Spurs might be able to pick up in the offseason.

We'll have to wait to see what options are picked up and whether any players are bought out. It's tough to tell in February what players are going to be available in August.

For the money Scola wanted, the Spurs could have had players like Reggie Evans and Trevor Ariza this summer. They decided instead to go with Francisco Elson.

Next summer if there is nothing available on the market and players like Mahinmi and Butler don't look promising, I'd be all for going after Scola. But I'm not going to pull a Mr. Body and say the Spurs should offer a blank check to any international bigman who has a highlight reel made in his honor.

[Dartherus]

Most scouts say Scola is closer to 6-foot-8, has short arms and isn't much of an athlete.
Most scouts? who? what I say if what I personally saw listed in printed paper after training camps. Another way to see is seeing him IN LIVE ACTION, side by side with Garbajosa, he seemed slightly taller, side by side with Oberto, he seemed the same size, and his arms are long, I'd bet, from seeing him in court, that his wingpan is claerly bigger than his height....

Again, not trying to discredit the scouts who could have said that he's 6'8", just posting my PERSONAL experience of seeing him in videos and in live games. You can also confirm that for yourself watching the games (that he isn't undersized at all and he IS atheltic, depsite in euro games he DOESN'T USE athleticism a lot, but it's because of his style, not because he can't), instead of relying in a written report.

[AFBlue]

We'll have to wait to see what options are picked up and whether any players are bought out. It's tough to tell in February what players are going to be available in August.

For the money Scola wanted, the Spurs could have had players like Reggie Evans and Trevor Ariza this summer. They decided instead to go with Francisco Elson.

Next summer if there is nothing available on the market and players like Mahinmi and Butler don't look promising, I'd be all for going after Scola. But I'm not going to pull a Mr. Body and say the Spurs should offer a blank check to any international bigman who has a highlight reel made in his honor.

It's not that tough...there's a listing of free agents and potential free agents on ESPNs website....a team-by-team breakdown. I understand that we're unsure of the "restricted" or "option" players, but I'd be willing to say that none of them will match up.

I'm also for the Spurs being fiscally responsible, but the $5.2M should get spent with the real problems the Spurs have, and the bigger issue is that the Spurs would practically give Scola (who COULD be the starting PF next year) to another team, because he has little to no trade value and it only gets lower as he gets older...

[Kori Ellis]

You can also confirm that for yourself watching the games (that he isn't undersized at all and he IS atheltic, depsite in euro games he DOESN'T USE athleticism a lot, but it's because of his style, not because he can't), instead of relying in a written report.

Just FYI, we've all watched Scola play. Tons of Euroleague games are broadcast here.

[ArgSpursFan]

:lmao @ using a Charles Smith comparison to try to convince Spurs fans. I think you just made Timvp's point for him.

And Scola is nowhere near the talent Barkely was.

you´re right,He may be able to do more for the spurs tham what Charles Smith did.
And by the way,who honestly though that manu was gonna become what he is for the spurs when they drafted him in 1999??
So stop the Scola´s downplaying thread and get more real dude.
ohh, I forgot we have Matt Bonner now,we don´t need Scola.hahahaha :lol

[AFBlue]

We'll have to wait to see what options are picked up and whether any players are bought out. It's tough to tell in February what players are going to be available in August.

For the money Scola wanted, the Spurs could have had players like Reggie Evans and Trevor Ariza this summer. They decided instead to go with Francisco Elson.

Next summer if there is nothing available on the market and players like Mahinmi and Butler don't look promising, I'd be all for going after Scola. But I'm not going to pull a Mr. Body and say the Spurs should offer a blank check to any international bigman who has a highlight reel made in his honor.

Here, I'll help you out...

I took the liberty of editing out all non-bigs...


Updated: Feb. 2, 2007, 9:59 AM ET
2007 NBA Free Agent List

ESPN.com has the complete list of free agents, along with players who have various contract provisions to guarantee all or part of their salary for next season.

Key: ETO = Early Termination Option, P = Player Option, T = Team Option

Atlanta Hawks

Restricted: Esteban Batista

Unrestricted: Stanislav Medvedenko

Boston Celtics

Unrestricted: Michael Olowokandi

Charlotte Bobcats

Restricted: Ryan Hollins (T)

Unrestricted: Primoz Brezec (P), Jake Voskuhl (P)
Chicago Bulls

Restricted: Martynas Andriuskevicius, Andres Nocioni, Mike Sweetney

Unrestricted: Malik Allen, P.J. Brown

Cleveland Cavaliers

Restricted: Anderson Varejao

Unrestricted: Scot Pollard

Dallas Mavericks

Restricted: None

Unrestricted: Austin Croshere, DeSagana Diop (T),

Denver Nuggets

Restricted: None

Unrestricted: Eduardo Najera (ETO), Jamal Sampson

Detroit Pistons

Unrestricted: Dale Davis, Antonio McDyess (P), Chris Webber

Golden State Warriors

Restricted: Zarko Cabarkapa,

Houston Rockets

Unrestricted: Dikembe Mutombo

Indiana Pacers

Restricted: Maceo Baston (P)

Los Angeles Lakers

Unrestricted: Chris Mihm

Memphis Grizzlies

Restricted: Lawrence Roberts

Unrestricted: Jake Tsakalidis

Miami Heat

Restricted: Earl Barron

Unrestricted: Michael Doleac (P),

Milwaukee Bucks

Unrestricted: Brian Skinner (T)

Minnesota Timberwolves

Unrestricted: Eddie Griffin (P)

New Jersey Nets

Unrestricted: Mikki Moore

New Orleans Hornets

Restricted: Brandon Bass

Unrestricted: Marc Jackson

New York Knicks

Unrestricted: Kelvin Cato, Malik Rose (ETO)

Orlando Magic

Restricted: Darko Milicic

Unrestricted: Pat Garrity (ETO), Bo Outlaw

Philadelphia 76ers

Restricted: Shavlik Randolph (P)

Unrestricted: Alan Henderson, Joe Smith

Phoenix Suns

Restricted: Pat Burke

Unrestricted: Sean Marks, Kurt Thomas (P)

Portland Trail Blazers

Unrestricted: Jamaal Magloire,

Sacramento Kings

Unrestricted: Vitaly Potapenko, Corliss Williamson

Seattle SuperSonics

Unrestricted: Danny Fortson

Toronto Raptors

Restricted: Pape Sow

Utah Jazz

Unrestricted: Rafael Araujo

Washington Wizards



Unrestricted: Calvin Booth, Michael Ruffin

[Mr. Body]

But I'm not going to pull a Mr. Body and say the Spurs should offer a blank check to any international bigman who has a highlight reel made in his honor.

When did I say this? Don't tell me you've gone AHF-level retarded all a sudden. Classic. Quote the myths of a fuzzy-headed mental defective. Very smart, timvp. You've gotten completely obliterated in this thread.

[timvp]

When did I say this? Don't tell me you've gone AHF-level retarded all a sudden. Classic. Quote the myths of a fuzzy-headed mental defective. Very smart, timvp. You've gotten completely obliterated in this thread.

:lol Says the guy who gets so owned he can't even reply to my posts.

You wanted to give big money to Javtokas. You want to give big money to Scola. Add it up.

The only people agreeing with your warped views are Argentina homers and Raptor fans who used to be Spurs fans until the Spurs let traded Rasho.

[T Park]

:lol

[ChumpDumper]

I say invite Scola and Fizer to summer league and let God sort it out.

[AFBlue]

The only people agreeing with your warped views are Argentina homers and Raptor fans who used to be Spurs fans until the Spurs let traded Rasho.

Umm...I'm neither, but I agree with Mr. Body more for lack of options than my insistance that Scola will be dominant.

Did you check the list?

Varajao peaked my interest, but God only knows how much the Spurs would have to overpay for an energy guy...since he's restricted. See anyone else?

[Mr. Body]

:lol Says the guy who gets so owned he can't even reply to my posts.

You wanted to give big money to Javtokas. You want to give big money to Scola. Add it up.

The only people agreeing with your warped views are Argentina homers and Raptor fans who used to be Spurs fans until the Spurs let traded Rasho.

When didn't I reply to your posts? If I missed something, it might be because I have a life.

I advocated about $2M for Javtokas at the most. This was during the risky move for both Elson and Butler. I didn't think Elson was that good and Javtokas was prepared to play for us. I did think Butler was good. Was wrong about that. The 'big money' I'm advocating for Scola is $3M/yr for 3 years. That's hardly big money. It was AHF who started this 'blank check' business which you've apparently picked up like an STD.

I think you've wrapped your puffy lips around AHF's flaccid cock one too many times, or he's contained your tiny penis beneath the huge sheafs of his flabby ass one too many times while discussing your bizarre fantasies about what happens on this board. I want none of it. You're usually a smart guy, but you're being incredibly stupid here.

So kiss my ass. I'll see you on some other thread where you're not an idiot.

:wakeup

[timvp]

When didn't I reply to your posts?
Try reading the thread. Maybe then the forum wouldn't have to continually keep correcting you.

It gets old.


If I missed something, it might be because I have a life.
So much of a life that you have over 500 posts on the 12th man of some scrub Greek team.


I advocated about $2M for Javtokas at the most.

BS.

You had a melt down and were whining for weeks that the Spurs should have given Javtokas the money they gave Elson. All because you watched a highlight reel.

So not only do you want the Spurs to make Scola the highest paid second round draft pick of all time, you want the Spurs to make Javtokas the second highest paid second round draft pick of all time.

There's a reason why everything you post about never happens.


This was during the risky move for both Elson and Butler. I didn't think Elson was that good and Javtokas was prepared to play for us. I did think Butler was good. Was wrong about that.

More classic flip flopping. You loved Javtokas. Now that he's not playing, you act like he doesn't exist.

You were high on Butler. Now that he's not playing, you act like he sucks.

Grow a spine. If you actually have a take somewhere in your posts, stick by it.


The 'big money' I'm advocating for Scola is $3M/yr for 3 years. That's hardly big money.

Again, that'd make him the highest paid second round draft pick of all-time.


It was AHF who started this 'blank check' business which you've apparently picked up like an STD.

Must have been a lucky guess, because I avoid reading your posts when you enter meltdown stage. Then again, you are the main advocate for making Scola and Javtokas the two richest second round draft picks ever.

When in reality, Scola is worth in the neighborhood of 3-years, $6M and Javtokas is worth a minimum contract. The Spurs obviously agree with my stance. I don't know anyone who agrees with your take.


I think you've wrapped your puffy lips around AHF's flaccid cock one too many times, or he's contained your tiny penis beneath the huge sheafs of his flabby ass one too many times while discussing your bizarre fantasies about what happens on this board.

:lmao

Homosexual meltdown in progress. You're the one coming in here trying to say I'm owned when Garbajosa shot 32% in his breakout month. I say the words "blank check" and you breakout in some hardcore gay porn fantasy.

Relax.


I want none of it. You're usually a smart guy, but you're being incredibly stupid here.

So kiss my ass. I'll see you on some other thread where you're not an idiot.

:wakeup

I'm being incredibly stupid because I agree with the Spurs about not making Scola and Javtokas the two richest second round draft picks in NBA history? You fail to even grasp the concept that there is a difference between the market value of a second round pick and a free agent, so you aren't going to see where the Spurs are coming from unless you do.

When the subject isn't international bigmen, you usually have pretty good points. But you might want to brush up on the facts in this thread if you want to bring an actual take.

Thanks.

[SequSpur]

i'm tired of people talking shit to sequ and then turn around and steal sequ's philosophy...

pisses me off.

[Josepatches]

International players like Scola would never be second round of the draft if they did not have contract with european teams.This contract does that some FIBA players are second round because NBA teams cannot incorporate them to the roster until they finish his contract or they can pay to the teams where they play enough money to make these teams let them go to the NBA.If you want them and they are free then you have to pay by their talent,not the position of the draft because some Euro teams can offer him two much money too.

[Pugglekicker_21]

i would really like to see scola in a spurs uni, buts its not happening for a while.

[Josepatches]

you´re right,He may be able to do more for the spurs tham what Charles Smith did.

Charles Smith is playing pretty good in Europe and I'm pretty sure that he could play in the NBA but...It's the same than Anthony Parker.He didn't have many chances to play in his first years in the NBA and he went to Europa.Now he is an important player in Toronto.There are many US players in Europe (where they are stars) with enough talent to play in the NBA but NBA teams choose european players worse than them to play in the NBA.Amazing but we are lucky here






And by the way,who honestly though that manu was gonna become what he is for the spurs when they drafted him in 1999??

I did.Even I thought that he could be more important than what he was in his first years

[ArgSpursFan]

International players like Scola would never be second round of the draft if they did not have contract with european teams.This contract does that some FIBA players are second round because NBA teams cannot incorporate them to the roster until they finish his contract or they can pay to the teams where they play enough money to make these teams let them go to the NBA.If you want them and they are free then you have to pay by their talent,not the position of the draft because some Euro teams can offer him two much money too.

Finally,Somebody with some commun sence in this board.
(Besides me)

[ArgSpursFan]

Garbajosa's value is different than Scola's value to the Spurs because one is on the open market and one isn't.

I thought that a player´s value was Seted by the player´s skills and stats,mostly from his last or current season
Example:beno´s value last year was twicest bigger tham as today,I think.
Eventhough he already has a contract signed two or three years ego.

[ArgSpursFan]

Try reading the thread.

So not only do you want the Spurs to make Scola the highest paid second round draft pick of all time, you want the Spurs to make Javtokas the second highest paid second round draft pick of all time.There's a reason why everything you post about never happens.


Again, that'd make him the highest paid second round draft pick of all-time.

When in reality, Scola is worth in the neighborhood of 3-years, $6M and Javtokas is worth a minimum contract. The Spurs obviously agree with my stance. I don't know anyone who agrees with your take.



I'm being incredibly stupid because I agree with the Spurs about not making Scola and Javtokas the two richest second round draft picks in NBA history?

Thanks.

is it what I´m feeling or you´re getting a little Racist on this Thread ?
cause It looks like you don´t want or HATE a non American player to be the highest paid 2nd. round pick

I´m gonna break something down to you.
Scola signed a 14 M EUROS contract with his actual team.
thats about US$ 28 M , in a country where Soccer is the most popular sport by far.
So if the spurs don´t make it up to him by offering a better contract in order to HELP HIM OUT, to pay the buy out,he won´t come to the NBA.
he doesn´t need Holt´s Alms or charity,cause he´s already rich.

[mountainballer]

Garbajosa's value is different than Scola's value to the Spurs because one is on the open market and one isn't.

and that is the point that makes the Spurs strategy so hard to accept.

a team either uses a 2nd rounder on a young player, sign him immediatly or at least after one year to a small contract and try to develope him.
or
if the team waits 3 or more years, while the player developes somewhere else, they pay him his market value later.
like this category of FAs is payed nowadays. (see Nocioni, Calderon, Garbajosa, Jasikevicious etc.). I bet everyone here would love to see the Spurs pay Nocioni 4 million per year or Calderon 2.3, if they would play for the Spurs right now.

the Spurs strategy is trying to get both advantages. they draft a player (somtimes players who were just in the draft because of the age rule), no matter in they have a buyout (Manu, Scola) and wait for some years how this player developes.
so the risk you have to take in any young player, is left with the other team.
when the player is ready to come, they offer a contract far below the market value, just because they own his rights.
in other words: the worst thing for a player in Europe to happen is to turn 22 and be drafted by the Spurs. this means, he will either never come to the NBA, or lose quite some millions.
does really anybody think this strategy will help the Spurs long term? looking at the Spurs moves of the last years, we can be very thankfull, that Manu is a Spur.
he came here not because of the Spurs wanting him badly because of all his qualities, he came here instead of the Spurs lowballing him.
many people now use this as an argument, why Spurs draftees must not get more than Manu got.

[leemajors]

is it what I´m feeling or you´re getting a little Racist on this Thread ?
cause It looks like you don´t want or HATE a non American player to be the highest paid 2nd. round pick

I´m gonna break something down to you.
Scola signed a 14 M EUROS contract with his actual team.
thats about US$ 28 M , in a country where Soccer is the most popular sport by far.
So if the spurs don´t make it up to him by offering a better contract in order to HELP HIM OUT, to pay the buy out,he won´t come to the NBA.
he doesn´t need Holt´s Alms or charity,cause he´s already rich.

maybe you're just being obtuse. there's no reason to pay scola that much for what he is. it has nothing to do with his nationality.

[ArgSpursFan]

maybe you're just being obtuse. there's no reason to pay scola that much for what he is. it has nothing to do with his nationality.

or may be I´m just being real about it,and while you all think that the spurs would be making Scola a favor by bringing him to the NBA,the real thing is that ,Scola can be the guy that the spurs need to eather buck up Tim Duncan and Also play along with him on the paint and get more points in the paint,something that´s been a real issue this year.

[JPB]

and that is the point that makes the Spurs strategy so hard to accept.

a team either uses a 2nd rounder on a young player, sign him immediatly or at least after one year to a small contract and try to develope him.
or
if the team waits 3 or more years, while the player developes somewhere else, they pay him his market value later.
like this category of FAs is payed nowadays. (see Nocioni, Calderon, Garbajosa, Jasikevicious etc.). I bet everyone here would love to see the Spurs pay Nocioni 4 million per year or Calderon 2.3, if they would play for the Spurs right now.

the Spurs strategy is trying to get both advantages. they draft a player (somtimes players who were just in the draft because of the age rule), no matter in they have a buyout (Manu, Scola) and wait for some years how this player developes.
so the risk you have to take in any young player, is left with the other team.
when the player is ready to come, they offer a contract far below the market value, just because they own his rights.
in other words: the worst thing for a player in Europe to happen is to turn 22 and be drafted by the Spurs. this means, he will either never come to the NBA, or lose quite some millions.
does really anybody think this strategy will help the Spurs long term? looking at the Spurs moves of the last years, we can be very thankfull, that Manu is a Spur.
he came here not because of the Spurs wanting him badly because of all his qualities, he came here instead of the Spurs lowballing him.
many people now use this as an argument, why Spurs draftees must not get more than Manu got.

really good point. Really.

[VaSpursFan]

I thought that a player´s value was Seted by the player´s skills and stats,mostly from his last or current season
Example:beno´s value last year was twicest bigger tham as today,I think.
Eventhough he already has a contract signed two or three years ego.

scola because he was drafted in the second round is bound by the NBA salary structure for draft picks. there is no way to get around this...it's all covered in the NBA collective bargaining agreement. there is a sliding scale for salaries starting with the #1 pick.

now if Scola was a free agent, he's not bound by the restrictions of the agreement in terms of salary structure.

[ArgSpursFan]

scola because he was drafted in the second round is bound by the NBA salary structure for draft picks. there is no way to get around this...it's all covered in the NBA collective bargaining agreement. there is a sliding scale for salaries starting with the #1 pick.

now if Scola was a free agent, he's not bound by the restrictions of the agreement in terms of salary structure.

So you are telling me that the spurs screwed scola,in another words.
But I think 3.5 M p/year is allowed for a second rounder,isn´t it?

[Kori Ellis]

is it what I´m feeling or you´re getting a little Racist on this Thread ?
cause It looks like you don´t want or HATE a non American player to be the highest paid 2nd. round pick

I´m gonna break something down to you.
Scola signed a 14 M EUROS contract with his actual team.
thats about US$ 28 M , in a country where Soccer is the most popular sport by far.
So if the spurs don´t make it up to him by offering a better contract in order to HELP HIM OUT, to pay the buy out,he won´t come to the NBA.
he doesn´t need Holt´s Alms or charity,cause he´s already rich.

You just called timvp racist against non-Americans/Argentineans when he has an Argentinean grandfather? :td

[Aikita]

You just called timvp racist against non-Americans/Argentineans when he has an Argentinean grandfather? :td

That's weak. I have an Armenian grandfather, and I just don't like Armenians.
Maybe that's the reason he hates Argentineans.

[Kori Ellis]

That's weak. I have an Armenian grandfather, and I just don't like Armenians.
Maybe that's the reason he hates Argentineans.

:lol

Yeah except I'm married to him and I'd know if he hates his (now deceased) grandfather and that part of his heritage. :lol

timvp is Domincan for the most part. He's not of "American" descent and isn't racist against non-Americans. So let's just keep the racist accusations in check. Okay?

[cheguevara]

:lol

Yeah except I'm married to him and I'd know if he hates his (now deceased) grandfather and that part of his heritage. :lol

timvp is Domincan for the most part. He's not of "American" descent and isn't racist against non-Americans. So let's just keep the racist accusations in check. Okay?

Dominican? mmm. Kori does timvp dance merengue? if not, he's not really Dominican :smokin

[VaSpursFan]

So you are telling me that the spurs screwed scola,in another words.
But I think 3.5 M p/year is allowed for a second rounder,isn´t it?

i wouldn't say screwed. they did their classic draft and stash manuever. all teams are allowed to do this, the spurs just seem to do it a lot.

i'm not sure what the sliding scale for the draft picks are but i would assume somewhere in the $5mill per year range for the #1 pick so...$3.5 million for a second rounder would be too much. A late first rounder might not make $3.5 mill per. again, the agreement clearly spells out the salary scale...i'm not a GM so i can't give you the intimate details.

[Mr. Body]

in other words: the worst thing for a player in Europe to happen is to turn 22 and be drafted by the Spurs. this means, he will either never come to the NBA, or lose quite some millions.
does really anybody think this strategy will help the Spurs long term?

I've made this same point before and people didn't get the point. It probably won't happen often enough for the Spurs to be perceived as not giving market value. The market is just too big for a single team to establish that kind of reputation; there will always be players that want to come to the NBA.

I've also made the point that the Spurs were very happy to take Mahinmi in the late first round and probably would have done so even if they had, say, a pick in the high second round (and he would have stayed in). That is, with that pick they may have recognized the problem of drafting an international player with a second round pick and letting him develop. It's precisely as you say: if he blows up, it gets expensive. So they instead liked the idea of locking Mahinmi into an inexpensive deal so, feeling good about his prospects, once he finally comes over, he'll be just as cheap as when they first drafted him. Of course Mahinmi was there because they asked him to be and he'd be picked in the first round, but there were other motives.

Last draft the Spurs punted, so we don't know what their policy on these picks are now. I could see them take a flier on a European project with a late pick (a Nemanja Aleksandrov type), but they have to know the risk of drafting European projects now. There's a fine line to tread between letting them develop and grabbing them before they're out of your (underwhelming) price range. Scola is clearly worth more money than they (or assorted people on this board) are willing to pay. That's to the team's overall detriment.

[Kori Ellis]

i wouldn't say screwed. they did their classic draft and stash manuever. all teams are allowed to do this, the spurs just seem to do it a lot.

i'm not sure what the sliding scale for the draft picks are but i would assume somewhere in the $5mill per year range for the #1 pick so...$3.5 million for a second rounder would be too much. A late first rounder might not make $3.5 mill per. again, the agreement clearly spells out the salary scale...i'm not a GM so i can't give you the intimate details.

Rookie Scale - 1st pick salary starts at $3.7M. Last pick of the first round (30) starts at $744K. There's no scale for 2nd round picks.

[VaSpursFan]

Rookie Scale - 1st pick salary starts at $3.7M. Last pick of the first round (30) starts at $744K. There's no scale for 2nd round picks.

thanks for clarifying that.

maybe there is no official scale for a second rounder it would set a weird precedent to give a second rounder a yearly salary thats on par with the #1 pick...which is why the spurs won't offer scola that much. but then again i don't know much about the CBA and this may have been done already. all i know, is that the spurs are wise not paying a second draft pick more that a first round draft pick.

[Mr. Body]

thanks for clarifying that.

maybe there is no official scale for a second rounder it would set a weird precedent to give a second rounder a yearly salary thats on par with the #1 pick...which is why the spurs won't offer scola that much. but then again i don't know much about the CBA and this may have been done already. all i know, is that the spurs are wise not paying a second draft pick more that a first round draft pick.

There is no pay scale for second rounders, but I have no idea why people keep confusing Luis Scola with a second round pick. They got him for one years ago, but he's hardly at that level now.

[ArgSpursFan]

You just called timvp racist against non-Americans/Argentineans when he has an Argentinean grandfather? :td

I don´t think He really cares.+He´s not the only guy in america who has Inmigrants grandparents,or even great grandparents,most of americans do,(exept the natives indians).

[Kori Ellis]

I don´t think He really cares.+He´s not the only guy in america who has Inmigrants grandparents,or even great grandparents,most of americans do,(exept the natives indians).

How about immigrant parents?
To accuse someone of being racist against non-Americans because they don't think Scola is worth more than $2M a year is stupid.

[ArgSpursFan]

How about immigrant parents?
To accuse someone of being racist against non-Americans because they don't think Scola is worth more than $2M a year is stupid.

It´s not just about scola,he brought another non-american second rounder as well,so don´t think this is an american-argentinian discussion
i really felt that non-americans players don´t deserve a chance to get more money tham others.And that includes guys from Argentina,brazil,Servia or from wherever,not just Argentinians.

[cheguevara]

timvp hates argentines cause he thinks argentines only know soccer and beef. get over it or move to another site.

[timvp]

:lmao

I'm racist against Argentinians and Lithuanians because I can see where the Spurs are coming from? :rollin

That is awesome.

I think that Scola's market value is something in the range of $5-6M over three years. I think that Javtokas' market value is the league minimum.

And guess what? The Spurs obviously agree with me. And more than that, NBA history and every current NBA team agrees with me. If Scola was so obviously worth $10-12M, a team would have traded for him and signed him. The Spurs have offered him in trades for a while now and I haven't even heard of a team interested at all.

For the 10th time in this thread I'll repeat that I want Scola on the Spurs. He's an intriguing prospect. However, I can see why the Spurs would be hesitant to give him an unprecedented contract. Same with Javtokas. He would be a Spur right now if he would have come for his market value - a one year, minimum contract.

If it makes me racist to understand why the Spurs didn't cave to Scola's and Javtokas' demands, then I guess I'm racist.

You guys can live in some fairy land where second round picks with no bargaining position get paid as much as the first overall pick the draft, but the Spurs, the rest of the NBA and timvp will live in reality.

[AFBlue]

For the 10th time in this thread I'll repeat that I want Scola on the Spurs. He's an intriguing prospect. However, I can see why the Spurs would be hesitant to give him an unprecedented contract.

Not impressed with anyone on the list??? :lol

[ArgSpursFan]

:lmao

I'm racist against Argentinians and Lithuanians because I can see where the Spurs are coming from? :rollin

That is awesome.

.

you are NOt the spurs TIMVP,you are just another fan like me or anybody else.
We´ll see what the spurs think after this season.
peace out

[timvp]

you are NOt the spurs TIMVP,you are just another fan like me or anybody else.
We´ll see what the spurs think after this season.
peace out

Did I say I was the Spurs? I said I can see where the Spurs are coming from.

Are the Spurs racist too?

[ArgSpursFan]

Did I say I was the Spurs? I said I can see where the Spurs are coming from.

Are the Spurs racist too?

Thanx god no.
and thanx god you´re only a fan too

[timvp]

Thanx god no.
and thanx god you´re only a fan too

They aren't racist even though their thinking on the market value of Scola and Javtokas are the same figures I've posted?

So timvp is racist for agreeing with the Spurs. But the Spurs aren't racist for actually doing the deed.

Got it.

[Mr. Body]

If Scola was so obviously worth $10-12M, a team would have traded for him and signed him. The Spurs have offered him in trades for a while now and I haven't even heard of a team interested at all.


The problem is not that he's not worth that amount, but that there has been a double cost to teams: 1) the amount to trade for his rights; and 2) the amount to sign him at any rate. If he were a free agent asking for $9-10M/3 years, he'd be playing in the NBA right now. But it's hard to give up that amount plus what the Spurs have been asking for.

[timvp]

The problem is not that he's not worth that amount, but that there has been a double cost to teams: 1) the amount to trade for his rights; and 2) the amount to sign him at any rate.

But if Scola was Charles Barkley or Karl Malone or whoever else he's been compared to in this thread, wouldn't teams be lining up to try to get him away from the Spurs? The Spurs have offered him to teams to just move up in the draft and have been shot down.


If he were a free agent asking for $9-10M/3 years, he'd be playing in the NBA right now.

:clap:clap:clap

He gets it, folks. He really gets it.


But it's hard to give up that amount plus what the Spurs have been asking for.
True. Especially for an unproven talent. If he were the obvious superstar that some paint him to be, some team out there would trade ten spots in the draft for him.

But he's not an obvious superstar and that's why he isn't worth much to other teams and that's why the Spurs aren't going to budge on their offer of $5-6M.

[ArgSpursFan]

timvp hates argentines cause he thinks argentines only know soccer and beef and basketball. get over it or move to another site.

fixed Mr. Guevara

[AFBlue]

The problem is not that he's not worth that amount, but that there has been a double cost to teams: 1) the amount to trade for his rights; and 2) the amount to sign him at any rate. If he were a free agent asking for $9-10M/3 years, he'd be playing in the NBA right now. But it's hard to give up that amount plus what the Spurs have been asking for.

Which leads to the logical conclusion that the Spurs should pay him his $3M, bring him over next year (as the best available option), let him establish his true market value, and then the Spurs can proceed from there with making the decision as to whether he's a long-term piece or a trade asset.

Pay the man his piddly $3M, bring him over, and start his ass next to Tim Duncan...based on what's available, it's low risk (little opportunity cost being surrendured).

[timvp]

Which leads to the logical conclusion that the Spurs should pay him his $3M, bring him over next year (as the best available option), let him establish his true market value, and then the Spurs can proceed from there with making the decision as to whether he's a long-term piece or a trade asset.

Pay the man his piddly $3M, bring him over, and start his ass next to Tim Duncan...based on what's available, it's low risk (little opportunity cost being surrendured).

The Spurs have offered him more than that. But he wanted three to four times that to come over.

[Kori Ellis]

Which leads to the logical conclusion that the Spurs should pay him his $3M, bring him over next year (as the best available option), let him establish his true market value, and then the Spurs can proceed from there with making the decision as to whether he's a long-term piece or a trade asset.

Pay the man his piddly $3M, bring him over, and start his ass next to Tim Duncan...based on what's available, it's low risk (little opportunity cost being surrendured).

If the Spurs can't trade for a PF or if they give up on Jackie Butler, then I think bringing him here for 3 year/$10M deal (with the third year as a team option) is a solution, if his buyout is actually a reasonable amount. However, I think they'll continue to look to trade and look at other NBA free agents first.

[Mr. Body]

:clap:clap:clap

He gets it, folks. He really gets it.


That's what I've been saying all along. Have we been arguing about nothing?

Ah... no, I remember. You're saying he should be strong-armed by the team into accepting a cheaper deal and be happy about it or something. That may well happen, but probably not.

[AFBlue]

If he were the obvious superstar that some paint him to be, some team out there would trade ten spots in the draft for him.

But he's not an obvious superstar and that's why he isn't worth much to other teams and that's why the Spurs aren't going to budge on their offer of $5-6M.

If he were an obvious superstar he'd be asking for a 5yr $80M...

$3M is relatively cheap for a potentially solid starter...even if he ends up being a bench guy (15-20mpg) it's not a HORRIBLE contract. Again, what better option do the Spurs have?

[timvp]

Not impressed with anyone on the list??? :lol

Of the players on that list you posted, I'd be interested in the following players for the right price:

Ryan Hollins
Andres Nocioni
P.J. Brown
Anderson Varejao
DeSagana Diop
Antonio McDyess
Brian Skinner
Darko Milicic
Joe Smith
Kurt Thomas

If Scola holds steady on his demand for $10-12M, I'd see if one of those players could be had for their actual market value.

[Mr. Body]

Scola shouldn't/wouldn't come over for $1M a year 'to establish his trade value'. He can make a better living sticking with Tau, who won't count him so cheaply.

[ArgSpursFan]

But if Scola was Charles Barkley or Karl Malone or whoever else he's been compared to in this thread, wouldn't teams be lining up to try to get him away from the Spurs? The Spurs have offered him to teams to just move up in the draft and have been shot down.



But he's not an obvious superstar and that's why he isn't worth much to other teams and that's why the Spurs aren't going to budge on their offer of $5-6M.

Like I said before and i say it again,He may not worth 3.5 M a year,but He aint a full to be paying his buy out by him self,the spurs need to help him out if they really want him,may be they didn´t do it in the past cause timmy was still young,horry wasn´t sucking this bad and They thought with Elson/oberto was enough for the roster.
but,I think this off season we´ll see what´s gonna happen for real.
I also don´t think the spurs tryed to get rid of Scola´s rights,but if they did,they tried to get a good proven player with more NBA experience tham Scola in exchange and that´s why they couldn´t do it.
Cause they know that they won´t let Scola´s rights go for nothing.

[timvp]

That's what I've been saying all along. Have we been arguing about nothing?

Ah... no, I remember. You're saying he should be strong-armed by the team into accepting a cheaper deal and be happy about it or something. That may well happen, but probably not.

I guess he doesn't get it.

Do you really think that Vassilis Spanoulis couldn't have gotten more than the three-year, $5M deal (third year team option) he got with the Rockets?

If Spanoulis was on the open market, he would have gotten as much as Scola would on the open market. If not more.

[timvp]

Like I said before and i say it again,He may not worth 3.5 M a year
Which is reason enough to be hesitant in giving it to him then, right? Or is that racist too?


,but He aint a full to be paying his buy out by him self,the spurs need to help him out if they really want him

The Spurs can only help with a small portion dictated by the CBA.


,may be they didn´t do it in the past cause timmy was still young,horry wasn´t sucking this bad and They thought with Elson/oberto was enough for the roster.
Or they thought Scola wasn't worth the money.


but,I think this off season we´ll see what´s gonna happen for real.
I can guarantee you the Spurs won't give him more than $10M to come over. You can either believe me or what for it to happen.


I also don´t think the spurs tryed to get rid of Scola´s rights,but if they did,they tried to get a good proven player with more NBA experience tham Scola in exchange and that´s why they couldn´t do it.
Cause they know that they won´t let Scola´s rights go for nothing.
The Spurs have offered him to teams just to move up in the draft about ten spots. And still, there has never been anything close to a bite.

Maybe the whole NBA is racist.

[ArgSpursFan]

I guess he doesn't get it.

Do you really think that Vassilis Spanoulis couldn't have gotten more than the three-year, $5M deal (third year team option) he got with the Rockets?

If Spanoulis was on the open market, he would have gotten as much as Scola would on the open market. If not more.

So,basically you´re saying that,foreings need to work harder and cheaper to proof themself, and them, if everybody is happy with them, them they should get more money?

[AFBlue]

If the Spurs can't trade for a PF or if they give up on Jackie Butler, then I think bringing him here for 3 year/$10M deal (with the third year as a team option) is a solution, if his buyout is actually a reasonable amount. However, I think they'll continue to look to trade and look at other NBA free agents first.

Or they could shelf Oberto in favor of Scola. Oberto is a team-oriented guy and even if he doesn't exercise his player option to get out of the current contract, he has no quams with riding the pine....he did it all the first year.

[Kori Ellis]

So,basically you´re saying that,foreings need to work harder and cheaper to proof themself, and them, if everybody is happy with them, them they should get more money?

Not just foreigners, any unproven talent.

[AFBlue]

Scola shouldn't/wouldn't come over for $1M a year 'to establish his trade value'. He can make a better living sticking with Tau, who won't count him so cheaply.

Let me clarify to you and TIMVP....I meant $3M per year. Basically in agreement with the proposed contract by Kori...

[timvp]

So,basically you´re saying that,foreings need to work harder and cheaper to proof themself, and them, if everybody is happy with them, them they should get more money?

Where the hell are you getting this? In what planet is a 3-year, $6M contract slave labor?

That's what first round draft picks get. I'm basically saying I'd give Scola a contract that'd pay him as much as a lottery pick. And actually it's better than a regular rookie contract, because those last four years.

So no, I'm saying Scola should get paid like a lottery pick, except become a free agent one year sooner.

[AFBlue]

Of the players on that list you posted, I'd be interested in the following players for the right price:

Ryan Hollins - talk about unproven...
Andres Nocioni - at least worth MLE if not more
P.J. Brown - another aged veteran?
Anderson Varejao - a fan favorite in cleveland and restricted
DeSagana Diop - will be looking to cash in on new bod, rep
Antonio McDyess - will be looking for one last payday
Brian Skinner - not bad, but good play of late ups his value
Darko Milicic - young, talented...at least MLE
Joe Smith - Didn't you bash the idea of getting him in the "reasonable trade" thread
Kurt Thomas - another aged veteran?

If Scola holds steady on his demand for $10-12M, I'd see if one of those players could be had for their actual market value.

Some of those are likely priced out of range, some are old, and some are no upgrade over current roster peeps....face it, there is no Reggie Evans in this group.

BTW...having gone to Baylor, I like Skinner...but that has less to do with his talent level and more to do with allegiance to my alma mater. He's a good workhorse though.

[ArgSpursFan]

Where the hell are you getting this? In what planet is a 3-year, $6M contract slave labor?
.

I never said Slave labor,but you brought it up though.

[diego]

For the 10th time in this thread I'll repeat that I want Scola on the Spurs. He's an intriguing prospect. However, I can see why the Spurs would be hesitant to give him an unprecedented contract. Same with Javtokas. He would be a Spur right now if he would have come for his market value - a one year, minimum contract.



I didnt bother to read the racist bit because its clear argspursfan went overboard and said something stupid.

but scola and javotkas are different situations. scola is a proven player, you'll be hardpressed to get a player through the draft or freeagency with his resume (top performer in euroleague and international play- for your sake lets assume that is equivalent to being a college star). the only thing better is proven NBA performers, and SA is almost always going to lack the money to compete for the attractive pieces (some other irresponsible owner is always going to offer more than us). javotkas on the other hand had a good year in the lithuanian league after getting hurt, the spurs reportedly made him a fair offer, but he refused for more money. as far as i know, scola hasnt refused any offer from the spurs, his agent bitched because he couldnt field offers from other teams. Scola is screwed because of that contract he signed nearly a decade ago at age 16. I firmly believe the spurs are going to bring him in now, remember also that scola didnt extend his contract this time, despite a huge offer. scola isnt a perfect fit for the spurs needs right now, but he can still strengthen the frontcourt and provide bench scoring, I'm 100% sure of it.

Of course, if the spurs end up winning theyll probably be able to get him (or whoever else) cheaper than if they crash and burn in the 1st round. I really dont think there's a better option than scola in our draftpick-range, nor through trade pieces, nor through freeagency (is the FO going to enter bidding wars? i doubt it. we have little capspace and several needs).

[Kori Ellis]

I didnt bother to read the racist bit because its clear argspursfan went overboard and said something stupid.

but scola and javotkas are different situations. scola is a proven player...

As much as you or me or anyone else might consider Scola a proven player, obviously the Spurs don't consider him proven enough to warrant the salary he has wanted.

So unless the Spurs viewpoint on that changes this season, then this upcoming summer it will just be the same.

[ArgSpursFan]

I didnt bother to read the racist bit because its clear argspursfan went overboard and said something stupid.

but scola and javotkas are different situations. scola is a proven player, you'll be hardpressed to get a player through the draft or freeagency with his resume (top performer in euroleague and international play- for your sake lets assume that is equivalent to being a college star). the only thing better is proven NBA performers, and SA is almost always going to lack the money to compete for the attractive pieces (some other irresponsible owner is always going to offer more than us). javotkas on the other hand had a good year in the lithuanian league after getting hurt, the spurs reportedly made him a fair offer, but he refused for more money. as far as i know, scola hasnt refused any offer from the spurs, his agent bitched because he couldnt field offers from other teams. Scola is screwed because of that contract he signed nearly a decade ago at age 16. I firmly believe the spurs are going to bring him in now, remember also that scola didnt extend his contract this time, despite a huge offer. scola isnt a perfect fit for the spurs needs right now, but he can still strengthen the frontcourt and provide bench scoring, I'm 100% sure of it.

Of course, if the spurs end up winning theyll probably be able to get him (or whoever else) cheaper than if they crash and burn in the 1st round. I really dont think there's a better option than scola in our draftpick-range, nor through trade pieces, nor through freeagency (is the FO going to enter bidding wars? i doubt it. we have little capspace and several needs).

i like what you just said,besides the ¨I´d say something stupid part¨but,honetly how much you think scola worths,considering that HE is gonna have to pay a big part of his buy out?not 3.5 M p/year?

[timvp]

Some of those are likely priced out of range, some are old, and some are no upgrade over current roster peeps....face it, there is no Reggie Evans in this group.

BTW...having gone to Baylor, I like Skinner...but that has less to do with his talent level and more to do with allegiance to my alma mater. He's a good workhorse though.

I'd take a couple of those players as one-year stop gaps if the bigs this year suck in the playoffs and Butler and Mahinmi show no promise. Of course, like I've said all along, if Scola would come for his market value, I'd place him high on the list.

But also remember, the Spurs only have the MLE to spend and bigman isn't the only concern on this team. The Spurs need a backup point guard and help on the wing. You can't just limit it to bigmen.

[SequSpur]

Scola, the highest paid 2nd rounder in the history of the NBA! :lmao

[timvp]

I didnt bother to read the racist bit because its clear argspursfan went overboard and said something stupid.

but scola and javotkas are different situations. scola is a proven player, you'll be hardpressed to get a player through the draft or freeagency with his resume (top performer in euroleague and international play- for your sake lets assume that is equivalent to being a college star). the only thing better is proven NBA performers, and SA is almost always going to lack the money to compete for the attractive pieces (some other irresponsible owner is always going to offer more than us). javotkas on the other hand had a good year in the lithuanian league after getting hurt, the spurs reportedly made him a fair offer, but he refused for more money. as far as i know, scola hasnt refused any offer from the spurs, his agent bitched because he couldnt field offers from other teams. Scola is screwed because of that contract he signed nearly a decade ago at age 16. I firmly believe the spurs are going to bring him in now, remember also that scola didnt extend his contract this time, despite a huge offer. scola isnt a perfect fit for the spurs needs right now, but he can still strengthen the frontcourt and provide bench scoring, I'm 100% sure of it.

Of course, if the spurs end up winning theyll probably be able to get him (or whoever else) cheaper than if they crash and burn in the 1st round. I really dont think there's a better option than scola in our draftpick-range, nor through trade pieces, nor through freeagency (is the FO going to enter bidding wars? i doubt it. we have little capspace and several needs).


Good post. I agree with 99% of that. And I'm sure you would agree that Javtokas isn't worth more than a minimum contract to begin with, while Scola is worth more than ten times that.

Scola could very well be the Spurs' best option this year. However, the Spurs aren't going to give him $10-12M to come over. But if the reports are true that his buyout will be lowered this summer, then perhaps that won't me an issue.

If Scola's buyout is less than $2M as some are saying, I don't see him passing on a three-year, $6M deal.

[Mr. Body]

I guess he doesn't get it.

Do you really think that Vassilis Spanoulis couldn't have gotten more than the three-year, $5M deal (third year team option) he got with the Rockets?

If Spanoulis was on the open market, he would have gotten as much as Scola would on the open market. If not more.

The difference in this case - ignoring the fact that these are two different men - is that if Scola ever winds up playing for the Spurs, he'll wind up playing for them too late, because they need him right now. If he's not on this team because of cheapness, then that's a tragedy and mistake.

[timvp]

The difference in this case - ignoring the fact that these are two different men - is that if Scola ever winds up playing for the Spurs, he'll wind up playing for them too late, because they need him right now. If he's not on this team because of cheapness, then that's a tragedy and mistake.

The Spurs weren't going to make a desperation move, especially one that had no guaranteed outcome. If you remember correctly, even if the Spurs would have caved in and offered Scola the contract he wanted, Scola still would have had to work a buyout with his former team. So the Spurs could have offered Scola the money and have it blow up in their face.

Either way, you didn't answer my question. Do you think V-Span would have gotten the same contract he did from the Rockets if he were on the open market.

Thanks.

[ArgSpursFan]

As much as you or me or anyone else might consider Scola a proven player, obviously the Spurs don't consider him proven enough to warrant the salary he has wanted.

So unless the Spurs viewpoint on that changes this season, then this upcoming summer it will just be the same.

A few things to have in mind this coming summer kori.
1st:Scola´s buy out will be lower tham last summer.
2nd:Spurs will need him more tham last year and the year before,because of the ¨too old¨ spurs bench.
3rd:Most likely Scola Will be the Euroleague MVP of the year and he is gonna feel like he´s got nothing else to proof in Europe+He is getting older.
not mentioning IF spurs don´t pass the playoffs 2nd.round this year with the current roster.

If both parts can give up a little bit of cheapness and money expectations,Scola with get his buy out from Tau
And I belive he´ll sign a US$ 3 M p/year at least.

[Mr. Body]

I really don't care about Spanoulis. I don't know much about him and he's barely on my radar. When guards get paid the same as big men, ask me again.

[timvp]

I really don't care about Spanoulis. I don't know much about him and he's barely on my radar.
If you don't know much about comparable players that comprise the same market that Scola does, don't be surprised if you don't understand why the Spurs didn't cave.

[ploto]

I still don't think it is all about money any more between Scola and the Spurs.

[timvp]

I still don't think it is all about money any more between Scola and the Spurs.

True. Don't forget about the racism involved.

[ArgSpursFan]

True. Don't forget about the racism involved.

don´t worry he´ll get a facke S.S card to go to work :smokin

[ShoogarBear]

If Luis Scola was a U.S. player, the Spurs would never have drafted him.

:spin

[Mr. Body]

If you don't know much about comparable players that comprise the same market that Scola does, don't be surprised if you don't understand why the Spurs didn't cave.

Read the post after I edited it: Spanoulis is a shooting guard. Sort of a point guard. He's a combo guard. Whatever. Dime a dozen in this league, so your comparison with an elite scoring big man is bogus.

[pad300]

:lmao

I'm racist against Argentinians and Lithuanians because I can see where the Spurs are coming from? :rollin

That is awesome.

I think that Scola's market value is something in the range of $5-6M over three years. I think that Javtokas' market value is the league minimum.

...

You guys can live in some fairy land where second round picks with no bargaining position get paid as much as the first overall pick the draft, but the Spurs, the rest of the NBA and timvp will live in reality.

TIMVP, while I understand where you and the Spurs are coming from, this business of no bargaining position is just garbage. Let's talk a little about economics for a second.

1) Market value is what some participant in the Market will pay for something.

2) While it used to be true that the Market for high priced basketball players was confined to the NBA, the Europeans have some money too. It spends as well as anybody else's.

3) There is no doubt in my mind that if Scola wants to, he can sign a contract in spain for something on the order of 14 million euros over 7 years. (alhtough this would likely be the last contract of his career). Therefore, his opportunity cost to come to the NBA is 2 million euros/year + buyout costs. For this to make economic sense to him personally, NBA Salary * (1 - US tax rate) = 2 million euro + annualized buyout costs. Top US tax rate ~ 1/3. Annualized buy estimated at 1 million dollars us annually (including the impact of the Spurs $500,000). Euro to Dollar conversion 1 Euro ~ 1.3 US Dollars.

Do The math
NBA Salary = [(1-1/3)^-1] * (2000000*1.3 + 1000000) = (3/2)*(3600000)
NBA Salary = 4800000

Yeah, that's right, to make economic sense FOR HIM, his starting salary has to approach 4.8 million ANNUALLY. And the decision is HIS, you can't kidnap the man at gunpoint and force him to play in the NBA. At the salary you're proposing, he has about 2.8 million reasons a year to stay in Europe. He's clearly willing to give us a discount (My understanding is that he is asking for roughly 3.5 Million per year), because he wants to play in the NBA.

4) "No bargaining position" - :p:

Yeah Right. You want him, your gonna have to pay some. He can walk away anytime he wants, play in Europe and make BIGTIME money, living very comfortably. If you want him on the court, be prepared to stump up.

PS. Assuming he keeps his discout the same ~ 1.3 million US, and his buyout drops to 800K at the last year of his contract, effectively nothing.
Economic NBA Salary = [(1-1/3)^-1] * (2000000*1.3 + 0) = (3/2)*(2000000)
Economic NBA Salary = 3000000
NBA Salary = 3000000- Discount = 3000000-1300000 = 1700000.
He will likely come over for your proposal of $6 million for 3 years.

[ArgSpursFan]

Read the post after I edited it: Spanoulis is a shooting guard. Sort of a point guard. He's a combo guard. Whatever. Dime a dozen in this league, so your comparison with an elite scoring big man is bogus.

hey,don´t worry about that,he is still cheap man.let´s bring him onboard too,who cares if he plays 1,2,3 spot anyways?
We can actually make him do Holt´s mansion housekeeping too.

[Mr. Body]

Nice post, pad. Some on this board think players can be gladly trapped into contracts and not 1) piss off those players; and 2) piss off a number of other involved people in the basketball business. But you're correct on this issue. I don't know if it's worth debating here, however. Timvp and others argue it as if they've got some sort of moral high ground. They don't. It's business, and they don't understand it.

[timvp]

TIMVP, while I understand where you and the Spurs are coming from, this business of no bargaining position is just garbage. Let's talk a little about economics for a second.

1) Market value is what some participant in the Market will pay for something.

2) While it used to be true that the Market for high priced basketball players was confined to the NBA, the Europeans have some money too. It spends as well as anybody else's.

3) There is no doubt in my mind that if Scola wants to, he can sign a contract in spain for something on the order of 14 million euros over 7 years. (alhtough this would likely be the last contract of his career). Therefore, his opportunity cost to come to the NBA is 2 million euros/year + buyout costs. For this to make economic sense to him personally, NBA Salary * (1 - US tax rate) = 2 million euro + annualized buyout costs. Top US tax rate ~ 1/3. Annualized buy estimated at 1 million dollars us annually (including the impact of the Spurs $500,000). Euro to Dollar conversion 1 Euro ~ 1.3 US Dollars.

Do The math
NBA Salary = [(1-1/3)^-1] * (2000000*1.3 + 1000000) = (3/2)*(3600000)
NBA Salary = 4800000

Yeah, that's right, to make economic sense FOR HIM, his starting salary has to approach 4.8 million ANNUALLY. And the decision is HIS, you can't kidnap the man at gunpoint and force him to play in the NBA. At the salary you're proposing, he has about 2.8 million reasons a year to stay in Europe. He's clearly willing to give us a discount (My understanding is that he is asking for roughly 3.5 Million per year), because he wants to play in the NBA.

4) "No bargaining position" - :p:

Yeah Right. You want him, your gonna have to pay some. He can walk away anytime he wants, play in Europe and make BIGTIME money, living very comfortably. If you want him on the court, be prepared to stump up.

PS. Assuming he keeps his discout the same ~ 1.3 million US, and his buyout drops to 800K at the last year of his contract, effectively nothing.
Economic NBA Salary = [(1-1/3)^-1] * (2000000*1.3 + 0) = (3/2)*(2000000)
Economic NBA Salary = 3000000
NBA Salary = 3000000- Discount = 3000000-1300000 = 1700000.
Nice use of math but what you forgot to factor in is Scola's second contract in the NBA. If he explodes on the scene as many in this thread are predicting, his second contract in the NBA is going to dwarf anything he could get anywhere in the world.

Even if Scola himself thinks there is only a 50/50 chance that he would garner anything close to a Manu type contract, it's worth the risk to Scola. If he bombs out, he still can cash back in on a Euro team.

Add to the equation a 50% possibility that he's going to get a Manu contract and then let me know what makes more sense, signing a 3-year $6M or signing a long-term contract in Europe.

Thanks.


He will likely come over for your proposal of $6 million for 3 years.

Exactly.

:smokin

[timvp]

Nice post, pad. Some on this board think players can be gladly trapped into contracts and not 1) piss off those players; and 2) piss off a number of other involved people in the basketball business. But you're correct on this issue. I don't know if it's worth debating here, however. Timvp and others argue it as if they've got some sort of moral high ground. They don't. It's business, and they don't understand it.

Says the guy who isn't aware of similar situations happening in the NBA.

[Mr. Body]

Nice use of math but what you forgot to factor in is Scola's second contract in the NBA. If he explodes on the scene as many in this thread are predicting, his second contract in the NBA is going to dwarf anything he could get anywhere in the world.


Explode for a second contract? On whose guarantee? There's no showing that Nocioni is going to get anything more than the MLE this summer from Chicago, which ain't a lot more than he's making now. Taking off money now because of a moderate chance of making more down the line is foolish.

[timvp]

Taking off money now because of a moderate chance of making more down the line is foolish.

Sincerely,

Manu "Dime a dozen guard" Ginobili

[Mr. Body]

Says the guy who isn't aware of similar situations happening in the NBA.

That players are trapped into contracts isn't surprising. Of course it happens. But to say we've got a butterfly net around Scola in this instance is a bit wishy-washy, since he can just as easily finish out his career as a Euroleague Hall of Famer and get laudations everywhere. Scola is just as likely to sit out a year of professional ball in order to abolish the Spurs' rights to him and then sign with whomever he wants. Money-wise that's probably the way to go.

Meanwhile, all for $1M/year, you would rather not have him play with this Spurs this year, next year, or ever.

[Mr. Body]

Sincerely,

Manu "Dime a dozen guard" Ginobili

Go find me another Ginobili. This team sucks now, so be quick about it.

[jcrod]

I'm not going to read this whole thread, but if Scola is good low post player, we need him. Everybody always says it wouldn't work because he is a low post player and would get in the way of Tim. But if you notice when Tim is not in there, we need a low post player. So I only see him helping us, he sure can't be any worse than what we currently have.

[timvp]

Explode for a second contract? On whose guarantee?

Um, that's how it works in the NBA. You play well and you are rewarded. You don't get a big contract before stepping foot on an NBA court.

And if you would have kept reading that post you quoted and picked up a calculator, it makes economic sense for Scola to not cash in on his first deal as long as he believes he will get a second contract in the league.

[timvp]

Go find me another Ginobili. This team sucks now, so be quick about it.

The Spurs should panic and sign Scola and Javtokas to the two biggest deals in NBA history, while ignoring that players more highly regarded are signing for less in similar situations. And the Spurs should do this with their only money available to spend in the summer.

:dramaquee

[pad300]

Nice use of math but what you forgot to factor in is Scola's second contract in the NBA. If he explodes on the scene as many in this thread are predicting, his second contract in the NBA is going to dwarf anything he could get anywhere in the world.

Even if Scola himself thinks there is only a 50/50 chance that he would garner anything close to a Manu type contract, it's worth the risk to Scola. If he bombs out, he still can cash back in on a Euro team.

Add to the equation a 50% possibility that he's going to get a Manu contract and then let me know what makes more sense, signing a 3-year $6M or signing a long-term contract in Europe.

Thanks.



Exactly.

:smokin

The problem with factoring the second contract in is that there is no chance in hell he gets a Manu level contract. He'd be 30 when the 1st 3 year contract expires. Manu was 25 when he hit became a restricted FA. You don't give 5 or 6 year contracts to anything short of superstars when their 30 (ie he has to match say Elton Brand... good luck on Scola). The second NBA contract will be for less than the MLE, if he even gets that. Meanwhile, If he bombs, he's stuck here for 3 years sitting on the end of the bench, and reducing his value in Europe all the while, as he is getting older. Not to mention the possibility of having an accident (hit by a car say), and never getting another contract.

When his buyout comes down, he may come over for the money your offering, IF he is still willing to offer us a discount to play in the NBA, AND the Spurs haven't pissed him off enough shoving BS in his face for the last 3 years... Chance the FO is willing to take I guess. :wtf

BTW as far Javtokas is concerned, there is very similar math. The Spurs are clearly trying to lowball both players. We'll see if it works out in the long run.

[ShoogarBear]

4) "No bargaining position" - :p:

Yeah Right. You want him, your gonna have to pay some. He can walk away anytime he wants, play in Europe and make BIGTIME money, living very comfortably. If you want him on the court, be prepared to stump up.

PS. Assuming he keeps his discout the same ~ 1.3 million US, and his buyout drops to 800K at the last year of his contract, effectively nothing.
Economic NBA Salary = [(1-1/3)^-1] * (2000000*1.3 + 0) = (3/2)*(2000000)
Economic NBA Salary = 3000000
NBA Salary = 3000000- Discount = 3000000-1300000 = 1700000.
He will likely come over for your proposal of $6 million for 3 years.You ignore the fact that the Spurs have an equation to determine his worth, too. The most significant factor in their equation is the probability that Sola will turn out to be an impact player (top 7 on the roster) in the NBA. You guys seem to think that number is 0.9. In reality it is probably more like 0.5.

Proven player in Europe != proven player in the NBA.

[Kori Ellis]

The Spurs are clearly trying to lowball both players. We'll see if it works out in the long run.

You call it lowballing. But maybe the Spurs just don't believe that they are as good as some people think they are.



When his buyout comes down, he may come over for the money your offering, IF he is still willing to offer us a discount to play in the NBA, AND the Spurs haven't pissed him off enough shoving BS in his face for the last 3 years... Chance the FO is willing to take I guess.

Shoving what BS in his face?

His buyout was outrageous. Should the Spurs have paid him a max deal just so he could get to the NBA?

[pad300]

You ignore the fact that the Spurs have an equation to determine his worth, too. The most significant factor in their equation is the probability that Sola will turn out to be an impact player (top 7 on the roster) in the NBA. You guys seem to think that number is 0.9. In reality it is probably more like 0.5.

Proven player in Europe != proven player in the NBA.

Please review the post your are quoting - Neither the Spurs NOR Scola determine his market worth -

1) Market value is what some participant in the Market will pay for something.

2) While it used to be true that the Market for high priced basketball players was confined to the NBA, the Europeans have some money too. It spends as well as anybody else's.

THE MARKET IS NOT LIMITED TO THE SPURS OFFER. This is a fact! Deal with it!

[ArgSpursFan]

You call it lowballing. But maybe the Spurs just don't believe that they are as good as some people think they are.
Shoving what BS in his face?

His buyout was outrageous. Should the Spurs have paid him a max deal just so he could get to the NBA?

But ,they knew it when they drafted him+If he is not all that,why did they drafted him/them anyways?

[ChumpDumper]

THE MARKET IS NOT LIMITED TO THE SPURS OFFER. This is a fact! Deal with it!Then he'll rot in Europe and we'll sign Marcus Fizer. Deal with it.

[Kori Ellis]

But ,they knew it when they drafted him+If he is not all that,why did they drafted him/them anyways?

When Scola got drafted, I believe that Scola, his agent and the Spurs thought that eventually he'd be able to negotiate a reasonable buyout with Tau.

As for why they drafted him, they drafted him because thought he was a good player. But every second round pick doesn't make it to the NBA. Drafting is an educated guess, sometimes you are right - sometimes you are wrong. I'm not saying that the Spurs don't think he's good at all. I'm saying that they obviously don't think he's good enough to get the money he wanted in past summers. If they did, he'd be here already.

Again this summer they will evaluate again. If they thinks he's good enough, they think getting another big man is a pressing need, and the amount of money they are willing to offer him is enough for him to pay his buyout, then he'll be here. If not, then he won't.

[timvp]

The problem with factoring the second contract in is that there is no chance in hell he gets a Manu level contract. He'd be 30 when the 1st 3 year contract expires. Manu was 25 when he hit became a restricted FA.

First of all, Manu was 27 going on 28 when he signed his deal. Second of all, Scola can have the third year at a player option. Then he'd be 29 and in his prime. Team's can only offer 5 year contracts nowadays, meaning they'd have him from 29 to 33.


You don't give 5 or 6 year contracts to anything short of superstars when their 30 (ie he has to match say Elton Brand... good luck on Scola). The second NBA contract will be for less than the MLE, if he even gets that.

If Scola plays even as well as Nocioni does, he gets paid. Bigmen in the NBA make a lot of money, even if they are older.


Meanwhile, If he bombs, he's stuck here for 3 years sitting on the end of the bench, and reducing his value in Europe all the while, as he is getting older. Not to mention the possibility of having an accident (hit by a car say), and never getting another contract.

Those are the risks all rookies take when entering the league. The Spurs aren't in the business of making sure everyone they sign is getting the most money possible.


When his buyout comes down, he may come over for the money your offering, IF he is still willing to offer us a discount to play in the NBA, AND the Spurs haven't pissed him off enough shoving BS in his face for the last 3 years... Chance the FO is willing to take I guess. :wtf

If Scola can't handle the business part of the game, he won't be able to handle the first time Pop rips into him. Survival of the fittest.


BTW as far Javtokas is concerned, there is very similar math. The Spurs are clearly trying to lowball both players. We'll see if it works out in the long run.

Similar math? Javtokas was a free agent. He wanted the Spurs to give him big money up front. The Spurs laughed and let him sign in Greece.

[pad300]

You call it lowballing. But maybe the Spurs just don't believe that they are as good as some people think they are.




Shoving what BS in his face?

His buyout was outrageous. Should the Spurs have paid him a max deal just so he could get to the NBA?


1) Lowballing - Offering significantly less money than other buyers...

2) "Shoving what BS in his face?" a) Lowballing him. b) the amount of crap that has been tossed around in the Media regarding whose fault it is that he's not here... In particular, there have been comments made to the Media, ie In Public, about his skills and abilities on the court to cover the FO's ass when negotiations were not successful the last 2 years.

[Kori Ellis]

1) Lowballing - Offering significantly less money than other buyers...

There aren't any other NBA buyers. If there were other NBA buyers and the Spurs offered him a low contract, then that would be lowballing. He's not on the open market.

[ShoogarBear]

Please review the post your are quoting - Neither the Spurs NOR Scola determine his market worth -

1) Market value is what some participant in the Market will pay for something.

2) While it used to be true that the Market for high priced basketball players was confined to the NBA, the Europeans have some money too. It spends as well as anybody else's.

THE MARKET IS NOT LIMITED TO THE SPURS OFFER. This is a fact! Deal with it!Uh, in sports, market worth is dependent upon how a team, or a limited small number of teams, projects the present and future value of that player contributing to the team success, whether it be defined in wins or ticket sales or whatever value measurement the team uses.

The Spurs and every other NBA team don't give a fat damn how much some European team is paying him until they believe his abilities translate into impact on the NBA stage.

If you don't understand this concept, then it is no wonder that you are lost in this conversation.

[ArgSpursFan]

When Scola got drafted, I believe that Scola, his agent and the Spurs thought that eventually he'd be able to negotiate a reasonable buyout with Tau.

As for why they drafted him, they drafted him because thought he was a good player. But every second round pick doesn't make it to the NBA. Drafting is an educated guess, sometimes you are right - sometimes you are wrong. I'm not saying that the Spurs don't think he's good at all. I'm saying that they obviously don't think he's good enough to get the money he wanted in past summers. If they did, he'd be here already.

Again this summer they will evaluate again. If they thinks he's good enough, they think getting another big man is a pressing need, and the amount of money they are willing to offer him is enough for him to pay his buyout, then he'll be here. If not, then he won't.

I understand your point and that´s why i´ve been waiting for 3 years for Scola to come to the spurs.
but,this guy is getting better and better every year,is not that he was good 3 years ago and now he became a crapy player.
I really think that the main thing is that the spurs thought they wouldn´t had to spend 3.5 M p/year with Timmy at his best +Horry and another big guy on the roster.
But this season is showing that they were wrong,by being so conservative about Scola´s money expectations.

[pad300]

Then he'll rot in Europe and we'll sign Marcus Fizer. Deal with it.

Chump, I really don't much care. If I was running the Spurs, neither he nor Oberto would be here. I just really object to the stupidity of people around here, who don't understand math or economics, and expect Oberto to take whatever the Spurs offer him, for their perosonal entertainment. Why people insist that the world should be fair (or better) to them while everyone else should suck it up is completely beyond me. Why people think Scola has a moral obligation, rather than taking the money and running in Europe, I'm not sure...

[ShoogarBear]

The stupidity is with people who don't understand that this is not free-market economics, it's more akin to a risk-benefit analysis on both sides.

[ArgSpursFan]

Chump, I really don't much care. If I was running the Spurs, neither he nor Oberto would be here. I just really object to the stupidity of people around here, who don't understand math or economics, and expect Oberto to take whatever the Spurs offer him, for their perosonal entertainment. Why people insist that the world should be fair (or better) to them while everyone else should suck it up is completely beyond me. Why people think Scola has a moral obligation, rather than taking the money and running in Europe, I'm not sure...

Spurs signed Oberto cause he was cheaper tham Scola and has some BBIQ,but they never realized that for being so cheap they were getting Nothing,comparing of what Scola could´ve done for the spurs so far this season.

[pad300]

Similar math? Javtokas was a free agent. He wanted the Spurs to give him big money up front. The Spurs laughed and let him sign in Greece.

Yeah, the Math is similar,
Buyout ~ 0
European Salary ~ 1000000 Euro Annually (This is the number I recall hearing, if someone has a better number let me know)

Economic NBA Salary = [(1-1/3)^-1] * (1000000*1.3 + 0) = (3/2)*(1300000)
Economic NBA Salary ~ 1800000

The Spurs offered him the NBA minimum ~ 412000 in 06-07 for someone with zero years NBA experience. 412000 * 4 < 18000000. This is a big time lowball.

PS. By Similar math, I mean similar equation structure, not values...

[timvp]

Yeah, the Math is similar,
Buyout ~ 0
European Salary ~ 1000000 Euro Annually (This is the number I recall hearing, if someone has a better number let me know)

Economic NBA Salary = [(1-1/3)^-1] * (1000000*1.3 + 0) = (3/2)*(1300000)
Economic NBA Salary ~ 1800000

The Spurs offered him the NBA minimum ~ 412000 in 06-07 for someone with zero years NBA experience. 412000 * 4 < 18000000. This is a big time lowball.

PS. By Similar math, I mean similar equation structure, not values...

European teams were offering Manu more than the Spurs were offering. European teams were offering Spanoulis more money than the Rockets were offering. European teams were offering Arvydas Sabonis more than the Blazers were offering. European teams were offering Mehmet Okur more money than the Pistons were (2-year, $2M).

NBA teams don't compete with European teams. If they did, Manu, Spanoulis, Sabonis, Okur and others would have never joined the NBA.

[Kori Ellis]

Yeah, the Math is similar,
Buyout ~ 0
European Salary ~ 1000000 Euro Annually (This is the number I recall hearing, if someone has a better number let me know)

Economic NBA Salary = [(1-1/3)^-1] * (1000000*1.3 + 0) = (3/2)*(1300000)
Economic NBA Salary ~ 1800000

The Spurs offered him the NBA minimum ~ 412000 in 06-07 for someone with zero years NBA experience. 412000 * 4 < 18000000. This is a big time lowball.

PS. By Similar math, I mean similar equation structure, not values...

But the Spurs (and every other NBA team) aren't in the business of offer contracts to meet the player's market value in Europe. Javtokas (in the Spurs eyes) was worth a minimum contract in the NBA -- they don't care how much he makes or doesn't make in Europe.

[pad300]

The stupidity is with people who don't understand that this is not free-market economics, it's more akin to a risk-benefit analysis on both sides.

Yes it is... :bang :bang :bang

Scola is free to accept offers from the Spurs, or any team not in the NBA. You cannot force him to come to the US and play for the Spurs.

The Spurs are free to offer Scola any salary they want. He cannot force them to offer him a salary larger than they are willing to pay.

Both sides are free to take whatever positions they want. The market is artificially limited by forcing other NBA teams out of it, but inside that limitation it is still a free market, NONE of participants are constrained beyond their own decisions...

Until the Spurs come up with an offer that is acceptable to Scola, he's not coming here. The Spurs may be willing to accept that. But anyone who thinks that the Spurs have Scola over a barrel and can force him to accept a contract he doesn't like is a fucking moron.

The same applies to Javtokas. You cannot force they guy to accept your contract offer.

They may choose to come to the US for less money, on the hopes of a big contract later on. BUT you cannot force them into that decision. It's their life, they get to chose.

[timvp]

Maceo Baston is another strike against the theory that the Spurs have to outbid European teams for talent. Baston is 30 going on 31. Maccabi, where he'd been playing for years, offered him a long-term contract that would have made him one of the highest paid players in Europe.

Instead, he signed with the Pacers for the league minimum. Javtokas, in a similar situation, picked signing a one-year contract in Greece over a minimum contract. And Baston has a much better European resume than Javtokas has.

[Kori Ellis]

But anyone who thinks that the Spurs have Scola over a barrel and can force him to accept a contract he doesn't like is a fucking moron.

Umm, no one has said that.

[timvp]

But anyone who thinks that the Spurs have Scola over a barrel and can force him to accept a contract he doesn't like is a fucking moron.

Nobody is saying that.

The Spurs have a price that they think Scola is worth. If Scola doesn't deem that fair or if it's not enough to buyout his contract, it's his decision to stay in Europe. The Spurs can't do anything about that other than try to trade him, but then again, there are no teams out there lining up to pay Scola the money he wants.

[ChumpDumper]

Until the Spurs come up with an offer that is acceptable to Scola, he's not coming here. The Spurs may be willing to accept that. But anyone who thinks that the Spurs have Scola over a barrel and can force him to accept a contract he doesn't like is a fucking moron.As long as Scola wants to play in the NBA, they do have him over a barrel.

[ArgSpursFan]

May be the NBA needs somebody like scola who stands by his position/expectations and wait until the money HE WANTS is on the table.
Sometimes you end up spending more money and loosing alot more,when you are cheap in this life.

[ShoogarBear]

Yes it is... :bang :bang :bang

Scola is free to accept offers from the Spurs, or any team not in the NBA. You cannot force him to come to the US and play for the Spurs.

The Spurs are free to offer Scola any salary they want. He cannot force them to offer him a salary larger than they are willing to pay.

Both sides are free to take whatever positions they want. The market is artificially limited by forcing other NBA teams out of it, but inside that limitation it is still a free market, NONE of participants are constrained beyond their own decisions...

Until the Spurs come up with an offer that is acceptable to Scola, he's not coming here. The Spurs may be willing to accept that. But anyone who thinks that the Spurs have Scola over a barrel and can force him to accept a contract he doesn't like is a fucking moron.

The same applies to Javtokas. You cannot force they guy to accept your contract offer.

They may choose to come to the US for less money, on the hopes of a big contract later on. BUT you cannot force them into that decision. It's their life, they get to chose.Just because you have a choice between A or B doesn't make it free-market economics.

He can choose to play in the US, or he can choose to not play in the US. Those are his total range of options as far as the Spurs care. They don't give a damn if he's making $1 billion or $1 in Europe, if there's a probability he's going to wind up being another Oberto, that's the overriding factor into what they are willing to offer him.

It's a straightforward risk-benefit analysis, with the boundary contraints for the Spurs being:
-he won't sign at all
-he won't sign, they'll trade his rights and end up not getting value for him
-they'll sign him to a contract that way exceeds his NBA worth and be stuck with him

If not formally, I guarantee that the Spurs are at least informally placing weighting factors on all of these risks, with the primary factor being the third risk.

This is like have a discussion with a freshman who's just taken his first psychology course and now is trying to analyze everybody. What, did you just finish Economics 101 and are now trying to apply it to everything you see?

[ChumpDumper]

May be the NBA needs somebody like scola who stands by his position/expectations and wait until the money HE WANTS is on the table.

They already did.

His name was Maciej Lampe.
Sometimes you end up spending more money and loosing alot more,when you are cheap in this life.Cry me a river. The last person I'm going to have sympathy for is a guy who is holding out for $10 million to play a child's game.

[pad300]

Just because you have a choice between A or B doesn't make it free-market economics.

He can choose to play in the US, or he can choose to not play in the US. Those are his total range of options as far as the Spurs care. They don't give a damn if he's making $1 billion or $1 in Europe, if there's a probability he's going to wind up being another Oberto, that's the overriding factor into what they are willing to offer him.

It's a straightforward risk-benefit analysis, with the boundary contraints for the Spurs being:
-he won't sign at all
-he won't sign, they'll trade his rights and end up not getting value for him
-they'll sign him to a contract that way exceeds his NBA worth and be stuck with him

If not formally, I guarantee that the Spurs are at least informally placing weighting factors on all of these risks, with the primary factor being the third risk.

This is like have a discussion with a freshman who's just taken his first psychology course and now is trying to analyze everybody. What, did you just finish Economics 101 and are now trying to apply it to everything you see?

Just because the choices involved have relatively few options, doesn't make it a non-free market. If I want a Big Mac, I can either buy one from Macdonalds or not buy one. Gee - what a simple choice. A binary solution set. Is the US not a free-market economy?

If the Spurs want a PF, they have lots of choices... Including signing Scola. Scola has lots of choices about which team he plays for, including the Spurs (but not other NBA teams). Both side are weighing their risks, and assessing the potential benefits.

Similarly, if you've ever been offered a job more complicated than flipping burgers, you had the same choices that Scola does - accept the contract or find a different job (assuming your in a free labor market, like the US, and most of Europe). If it was the only fast food restaurant in town, well then, you aren't getting a job flipping burgers... The person who offered you the job took the same decision the Spurs are taking- either you would accept or not accept the contract.

It's a straightforward risk-benefit analysis, with the boundary contraints for your potential employer being:
-you won't sign with with him
-you will sign to a contract that way exceeds your business worth and be stuck with you
-You sign with him and are extremely beneficial to his business

[ShoogarBear]

Just because the choices involved have relatively few options, doesn't make it a non-free market. If I want a Big Mac, I can either buy one from Macdonalds or not buy one. Gee - what a simple choice. A binary solution set. Is the US not a free-market economy? Hoisted by your own petard.

If I want a hamburger I can buy one from McDonald's or Burger King or Wendy's or Whataburger or Chris Madrid's or Sonic or the local mom-and-pop grill. That's a free market economy.

If I specifically have to have a Big Mac, I can go to McDonald's or McDonald's or McDonald's. No other store can sell Big Macs by law. That's not a free market.

If Scola wants to play NBA basketball he can sign with the Spurs. Or the Spurs. Or the Spurs. That is not a free market economy.

McDonald's and Burger King and Wendy's and Whataburger and Chris Madrid's and Sonic are all in competition with each other.

The Spurs are not in competition with Euroleague teams. How Euroleague teams do has no bearing on how they do. For that matter they are also not in competition with ABA or WNBA teams either, so Scola is free to come over and negotiate with them if he wishes and the Spurs won't give a damn. The only thing that affects the Spurs is if Scola plays for another NBA team, and they have complete and total control over whether that happens.


If the Spurs want a PF, they have lots of choices... Including signing Scola. Scola has lots of choices about which team he plays for, including the Spurs (but not other NBA teams). That's the entire point. If you don't understand that the Spurs are not in competition with Euroleague teams and that the NBA is not a free-market economy, then you have no business discussing economics.

[nkdlunch]

If I specifically have to have a Big Mac, I can go to McDonald's or McDonald's or McDonald's. No other store can sell Big Macs by law. That's not a free market.


they don't have Wendy's in Spain

[ChumpDumper]

They don't have the NBA in Spain either.

[pad300]

Hoisted by your own petard.

If I want a hamburger I can buy one from McDonald's or Burger King or Wendy's or Whataburger or Chris Madrid's or Sonic or the local mom-and-pop grill. That's a free market economy.

If I specifically have to have a Big Mac, I can go to McDonald's or McDonald's or McDonald's. No other store can sell Big Macs by law. That's not a free market.

If Scola wants to play NBA basketball he can sign with the Spurs. Or the Spurs. Or the Spurs. That is not a free market economy.

McDonald's and Burger King and Wendy's and Whataburger and Chris Madrid's and Sonic are all in competition with each other.

The Spurs are not in competition with Euroleague teams. How Euroleague teams do has no bearing on how they do. For that matter they are also not in competition with ABA or WNBA teams either, so Scola is free to come over and negotiate with them if he wishes and the Spurs won't give a damn. The only thing that affects the Spurs is if Scola plays for another NBA team, and they have complete and total control over whether that happens.

That's the entire point. If you don't understand that the Spurs are not in competition with Euroleague teams and that the NBA is not a free-market economy, then you have no business discussing economics.


I'm Clueless? THE BUYER IN THIS TRANSACTION IS THE SPURS!!! THEY ARE PAYING HIM NOT HE'S PAYING THEM YOU LOW RENT WASTE OF OXYGEN MORON! SCOLA IS A UNIQUE PLAYER (as in individual, not special, or special education, like you) - HE'S THE MACDONALDS IN THE ANALOGY. HE IS SELLING HIS PLAY AS THE BIG MAC. NO OTHER PERSON CAN SELL HIS PLAY WITHOUT HIS PERMISSION. THE SPURS ARE THE GUYS GETTING HUNGRY AND ASKING THEMSELVES DO I WANT A BIG MAC OR NOT OR MAYBE SOMETHING ELSE?

The Spurs aren't in competition (in this case) with Euroleague teams? Who else is going to sign Scola's services? Have the Spurs decided to abandon signing Scola? If not, they are competing with Euroleague teams for his signature.

WHY DO YOU NOT GET THIS - SCOLA HAS OTHER OPTIONS THAN SIGNING WITH THE SPURS. IF THEY WANT HIM TO PLAY FOR THEM, THEY HAVE TO MAKE AN OFFER HE WILL ACCEPT.

JESUS H. CHRIST AT LEAST I UNDERSTAND THE DIFFENRENCE BETWEEN WHO'S SELLING AND WHO'S BUYING.

[ChumpDumper]

Fizer would play for a Big Mac.

[timvp]

WHY DO YOU NOT GET THIS - SCOLA HAS OTHER OPTIONS THAN SIGNING WITH THE SPURS. IF THEY WANT HIM TO PLAY FOR THEM, THEY HAVE TO MAKE AN OFFER HE WILL ACCEPT.

Again . . .

European teams were offering Manu more than the Spurs were offering. European teams were offering Spanoulis more money than the Rockets were offering. European teams were offering Arvydas Sabonis more than the Blazers were offering. European teams were offering Mehmet Okur more money than the Pistons were (2-year, $2M).

NBA teams don't compete with European teams. If they did, Manu, Spanoulis, Sabonis, Okur and others would have never joined the NBA.

[Bruno]

Fizer would play for a Big Mac.

Taj Gray too. He is averaging 15/6 in the french league. The level is weaker than in Spain but it's still quite impressive for a young player who discovers the europe.

[ShoogarBear]

:lmao :lmao :rollin Yeah, Scola is the McDonald's. You're really losing it.

How many hits does TauCeramicaTalk.com or LuisScola.net get again?

What's more likely, the Spurs fortunes are improved by Scola coming over, or Scola's fortunes are improved by Scola coming over?

If Scola never comes over, there are 20-30 other players the Spurs could try to get and never have to think about him again. If Scola never comes over here, all he'll ever be remembered as is the guy who played with Manu and Nocioni.

[VaSpursFan]

if scola wants to ever make it to the NBA, he has to negotiate with the Spurs. Otherwise, he stays in Europe. This is quite simple. the spurs hold all the cards when it comes to Scola's NBA career unless they trade his rights. The have ALL the leverage in these negotiations. Scola really has no bargaining power.

[AFBlue]

I'd take a couple of those players as one-year stop gaps if the bigs this year suck in the playoffs and Butler and Mahinmi show no promise. Of course, like I've said all along, if Scola would come for his market value, I'd place him high on the list.

But also remember, the Spurs only have the MLE to spend and bigman isn't the only concern on this team. The Spurs need a backup point guard and help on the wing. You can't just limit it to bigmen.

The Spurs also have three or four draft picks, and though some of those may not yield immediate contributors, I'm sure the Spurs can find someone to fill at least one of their gaping holes with these picks.

I do see your point though, there is much to worry about in the off-season and only so much to utilize in fixing those problems. It's why I'm such a big advocate of fixing at least one of the situations, via trade, before 22 Feb. If the Spurs grab a guy like Carlos Arroyo, who is signed through next season, the could net a decent backup pg for the rest of this year and not have to worry about using valuable cap-space and/or draft picks addressing an immediate need at PG.

Bottom line: You're not wrong, the Spurs could go into next season with Oberto and Elson again and not be worse off....AS LONG AS THEY USE THE CAP MONEY SAVED NOT BRINGING SCOLA OVER TO MAKE SIGNIFICANT ACQUISITIONS!

[pad300]

Again . . .

European teams were offering Manu more than the Spurs were offering. European teams were offering Spanoulis more money than the Rockets were offering. European teams were offering Arvydas Sabonis more than the Blazers were offering. European teams were offering Mehmet Okur more money than the Pistons were (2-year, $2M).

NBA teams don't compete with European teams. If they did, Manu, Spanoulis, Sabonis, Okur and others would have never joined the NBA.

Sure they're competing - they are offering the chance for a NBA big contract down the road. They are offering the prestige of playing in the "best" league in the world. They are offering a chance to emigrate to the US. These are all inducements for players to sign here. They are also very difficult to asses in terms of Dollar value, but they have value. The player gets to decide how much he values these things. In Scola's case in particular, his chance of a big NBA contract down the road is much lower than Okur, or Spanoulis, or Manu.

Sabonis have a hope of a big NBA contract(similarly to Scola) - he came over at 30 (1995). Accoding to Patricia's NBA salaries, he was payed 2.2 million. Portlands total salaries that year was 23.9 million - slightly over the 23 million dollar cap. He came over for a contract that was ~ 10% of the total salary bill. Given the financial state of Euro basketball at the time, that was at least equivalent money to what he would get in Europe (I would guess significantly more...Which is why he came over).
The same percentage for Scola would be roughly 6.5 million per year... But Scola is much less of a player than Sabonis.
Still, the reason Sabonis came is because it made financial sense to HIM. The young guys are hoping/gambling/wanting a big follow on contract. For Scola, it's a lousy gamble, because he's too old to get that big follow on contract. He's not too stupid to figure that out, nor is his agent. If the Spurs want him, they're not going to get a gigantic discount (greater than say 30%) over what Euroleague will pay him. Similarly for Javtokas - he's 27 this year. If he had taken a 2 year vet min contract with the Spurs, he'd be an FA at 29. He's not going to get that huge follow on contract... Therefore, it's lousy business sense to discount your services by 75% or so.
Either of them might decide he wants to play in the NBA enough to come really cheap, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

[ChumpDumper]

For Scola, it's a lousy gamble, because he's too old to get that big follow on contract. He's not too stupid to figure that out, nor is his agent.Then he'll never come over. End of thread.

[timvp]

Since when do NBA proven 29-year-old bigmen not get big bucks on the open market? A 30-year-old Jerome James last year signed a 5-year, $30M contract. And to get that, James just had a handful of good games. Eric Dampier got his gigantic $60M contract when he was 30.

Bigmen usually reach their prime in their earlier 30's. If Scola or Javtokas came to the NBA and played well, they'd get paid beyond their wildest European dreams.

[ChumpDumper]

Quick question.

What is the highest salary in Europe this season?

[timvp]

Quick question.

What is the highest salary in Europe this season?

Theodoros Papaloukas is the highest paid European player.

He signed a 3-year, $7M deal.

Huuuge competition. :rolleyes

[timvp]

The second highest paid player in Europe is Arvydas Macijauskas. The same guy who was the laughing stock of the NBA last year.

[ChumpDumper]

And has any second rounder ever been signed to more than a three year, $2.7 million deal?

[pad300]

What's more likely, the Spurs fortunes are improved by Scola coming over, or Scola's fortunes are improved by Scola coming over?

If Scola never comes over, there are 20-30 other players the Spurs could try to get and never have to think about him again. If Scola never comes over here, all he'll ever be remembered as is the guy who played with Manu and Nocioni.

Are Scola's fortunes going to be improved by Scola coming over? I'd say unlikely unless he gets something on the level of the contract he's asking for (3.5 million for 3 years)
Assumptions - 5% effective interest on accumulated value. Exchange rate remains 1.3 Dollars/Euro. Effective US tax rate 1/3. Scola plays till 34. In Europe, he gets a 7 year, 14 million euro contract(euro contracts are post taxes). In the NBA he has 2 career paths - he comes over for $6 million/ 3 years (TIMVP's suggestion) or he comes over for 10.5 million/3 years (Scola's camp). Afterwards he gets a 4 year, 18 million dollar contract from someone (my guess at a realistic follow up contract - roughly 1/2 the MLE by then).

Cumulative Time value of Money
Year Europe TIMVP Plan Scola Plan
2008 2600000 1333333.333 2333333.333
2009 5330000 2733333.333 4783333.333
2010 8196500 4203333.333 7355833.333
2011 11206325 7413500 10723625
2012 14366641.25 10784175 14259806.25
2013 17684973.31 14323383.75 17972796.56
2014 21169221.98 18039552.94 21871436.39

For the TIMVP plan to make sense, he has to get a follow on contract of $23 million over 4 years.

As far as Fame goes, already really famous in Argentina and Europe. But he's never going to be a big name in the US.

Addtionally, assuming he came over for this year with a 3.5 million buyout (effectively losing 1 million per year for the 1st 3 years). He still plays to 34, and gets a 5 year contract for 26.25 million after his 1st NBA contract. He is assumed to make 2 million euros this yearin europe.
Cumulative Time value of Money
Year Europe TIMVP Plan Scola Plan
2014 24827683.08 20680868.58 24704346.21

for it to pay off on the TIMVP plan, the five year contract must be for more than $31.25 million. He'd have to be awesome to get that kind of money at that age...

[timvp]

He'd have to be as good as Jerome James or half as good as Eric Dampier.

[picnroll]

How much is Manu making relative to what he'd make in Europe. If Scola believes in himself come over and prove he can play and he'll get paid just like Manu did. If he doesn't believe in himself stay in Europe for the safe money.

[Kori Ellis]

For the TIMVP plan to make sense, he has to get a follow on contract of $23 million over 4 years.

So you don't think he's good enough to earn that kind of contract?

That's peanuts for a big man.

[ShoogarBear]

He'd have to be as good as Jerome James or half as good as Eric Dampier.He'd have to be 75% as good as Rasho.

[ChumpDumper]

So you have to ask yourself--

Is Scola as good as Matt Harpring?

[timvp]

So you have to ask yourself--

Is Scola as good as Matt Harpring?

Harpring got a 4-year, $25M deal this summer at the age of 30. And that was after microfracture surgery and a couple other major injuries.

Scola would be a young 30 because playing in Europe is easier than playing in the NBA. If he is anything decent (10 points, 5 rebounds), he's going to bank whenever he becomes an NBA free agent.

[pad300]

So you don't think he's good enough to earn that kind of contract?

That's peanuts for a big man.

For a 30 year old who's been playing 3 years in the NBA as 4th option (at best, behind Tim, Tony, Manu) in the Spurs system, (assuming we get nobody over the next 3 years who might displace him for scoring opportunities eg. a 3 who can score). He's not going to put up staggering numbers. He won't have any magical "upside". He's never been a dominant rebounder,nor a dominant defender. He's a post scorer when most of the opportunities are going to go to Duncan. I'd say it's a pretty big gamble for him. He'd be useful for the spurs right now, because our bigs beside TD suck donkey nuts. He'd be a great post option when TD is sitting - but that makes him a backup, which is even worse for his big contract prospects...

I think he's a pretty good player. I think he'd be worth the 3.5 million/year. But, I can't see him getting more than 5 million a year for for 5 years or 6 million for 4years.

PS. TIMVP - James and Dampier are C's. C's get overpaid. Scola's a smallish power forward. Smallish power forwards rarely get overpaid. Seriously, name a boderline undersized PF who got overpaid at 30... The closest I come is Marshall for the Cavs. But he has/had a good 3 pt shot(.403 3Pt%), was a good rebounder, and had a career year starting for Toronto (39 mpg, 16.2 ppg) the previous year. It also helped he's a) not undersize, and b) the Cav's were desperate for 3 point shooters. He got less than the MLE. Judging by the results, they still overpaid (only mildly though).

[VaSpursFan]

Are Scola's fortunes going to be improved by Scola coming over? I'd say unlikely unless he gets something on the level of the contract he's asking for (3.5 million for 3 years)
Assumptions - 5% effective interest on accumulated value. Exchange rate remains 1.3 Dollars/Euro. Effective US tax rate 1/3. Scola plays till 34. In Europe, he gets a 7 year, 14 million euro contract(euro contracts are post taxes). In the NBA he has 2 career paths - he comes over for $6 million/ 3 years (TIMVP's suggestion) or he comes over for 10.5 million/3 years (Scola's camp). Afterwards he gets a 4 year, 18 million dollar contract from someone (my guess at a realistic follow up contract - roughly 1/2 the MLE by then).

Cumulative Time value of Money
Year Europe TIMVP Plan Scola Plan
2008 2600000 1333333.333 2333333.333
2009 5330000 2733333.333 4783333.333
2010 8196500 4203333.333 7355833.333
2011 11206325 7413500 10723625
2012 14366641.25 10784175 14259806.25
2013 17684973.31 14323383.75 17972796.56
2014 21169221.98 18039552.94 21871436.39

For the TIMVP plan to make sense, he has to get a follow on contract of $23 million over 4 years.

As far as Fame goes, already really famous in Argentina and Europe. But he's never going to be a big name in the US.

Addtionally, assuming he came over for this year with a 3.5 million buyout (effectively losing 1 million per year for the 1st 3 years). He still plays to 34, and gets a 5 year contract for 26.25 million after his 1st NBA contract. He is assumed to make 2 million euros this yearin europe.
Cumulative Time value of Money
Year Europe TIMVP Plan Scola Plan
2014 24827683.08 20680868.58 24704346.21

for it to pay off on the TIMVP plan, the five year contract must be for more than $31.25 million. He'd have to be awesome to get that kind of money at that age...

i'm not trying to pick on you..but your post basically says that Scola has to decide if he wants to accept the Spurs offer, otherwise he will stay in Europe because it's the prudent economic decision. Scola has no bargaining power because 1 team owns his rights and determines his fair market value. In order for Scola to ever play in the NBA (unless the Spurs trade his rights), he has to accept whatever the Spurs are willing to pay. It's really quite simple, in this market he only has one option and with no one to bid up his services, he's at the mercy of the Spurs. It sucks but it is what it is.

[timvp]

Seriously, name a boderline undersized PF who got overpaid at 30

Matt Harpring would be a power forward on a lot of teams in the league.

But again, smallish power forwards aren't looked upon too highly in the NBA, which is another reason why giving Scola the richest contract in NBA history for a second rounder isn't a good idea. You are trying to hype him up out of one side of your mouth and then talk him down out of the other. Either he's a stud worth his $3.5M or he's a smallish power forward who'd be lucky to stick in the NBA. Pick a side.

And also, your calculations are off. First of all, not all European contracts have the tax taken out. Second of all, most European contracts have team options after each season. So a 7-year, $14M contract is basically a 1-year, $2M contract. If Scola got injured, he'd never see the other $12M.

[pad300]

i'm not trying to pick on you..but your post basically says that Scola has to decide if he wants to accept the Spurs offer, otherwise he will stay in Europe because it's the prudent economic decision. Scola has no bargaining power because 1 team owns his rights and determines his fair market value. In order for Scola to ever play in the NBA (unless the Spurs trade his rights), he has to accept whatever the Spurs are willing to pay. It's really quite simple, in this market he only has one option and with no one to bid up his services, he's at the mercy of the Spurs. It sucks but it is what it is.

It's quite possible that he may stay in Europe. I'm not sure that I would bring him over if I was the Spurs FO - it is my estimate that as a player he's worth the 3.5 million, but the opportunity cost might not be worth it. Currently, I see a need to do some significant retooling and the salary space might be needed. What gets me is the people who think he should take 2 million and be grateful...

In the next year (which is the earliest we would get him), if I was the FO, I would be running a youth movement and I'm not sure Scola fits with that. I'd make an exception for Grant Hill at the Min. I might also make an exception for Javtokas, as we really need a decent defensive big other than TD. I'm not sure our need for another scoring big is desperate... I'd really be looking for younger guys. Currently we have 4 picks in what looks to me to be a hugely deep draft - I'd expect to get 2 or 3 useful bodies. At that point, empty roster spots are going to be at a premium...

[pad300]

Matt Harpring would be a power forward on a lot of teams in the league.

But again, smallish power forwards aren't looked upon too highly in the NBA, which is another reason why giving Scola the richest contract in NBA history for a second rounder isn't a good idea. You are trying to hype him up out of one side of your mouth and then talk him down out of the other. Either he's a stud worth his $3.5M or he's a smallish power forward who'd be lucky to stick in the NBA. Pick a side.

And also, your calculations are off. First of all, not all European contracts have the tax taken out. Second of all, most European contracts have team options after each season. So a 7-year, $14M contract is basically a 1-year, $2M contract. If Scola got injured, he'd never see the other $12M.

Taken in reverse order. If he gets a significant injury, he's screwed here too, as he'll not get that big 2nd contract.

I think your going to extremes in your perception of Scola. I figure he'll stick and be useful - call it 25 mpg (7 to 10 beside Duncan, the rest as Duncan's backup), 17 pp/48, 10 rb/48(roughly Udonis Haslem, slightly more points, less rebounds, better FG%, less shot attempts. Udonis does get 30+ MPG though). Currently U-Has gets ~ 5 million per year, so 3.5 is a decent bargain. At 30 years old though, unless U-Has picks it up, he's not getting another $5 million per year contract (well, the Heat might give it to him as a loyalty bonus for long service, much like Harping). He'll transition to a backup player at 4 million per year on a 4 or 5 year contract.
By contrast, Marshall, in his last season with TO, was scoring 21 pp/48, getting 12.6 rb/48, shooting 3's really well, and playing 39 minutes per night. Marshall got less than 5 million per year and IIRC only got 4 years.
Scola will be a backup, playing 25 mpg, scoring and rebounding less than Marshall, and not having a special skill like a PF who can shoot 3's from the perimeter. Therefore, he's not going to get as much money, even accounting for inflation. It gets worse if the spurs improve their 3 spot offensively - it would take shoots from him. It gets worse if the Spurs get something in the draft or trade or FA,or from Mahnimi, Butler, or Javtokas that takes either C minutes from Duncan - sliding him full time to the PF (leaving only 15 MPG for Scola) or worst case, the best available player in the draft happens to be a PF good enough to challenge him for minutes at the backup.
I can't see it being worth Scola's while to come over starting at 6$ million / 3years. He's just leaving to much money on the table. He thinks it's worth it at 10.5/3, the FO doesn't.

[Kori Ellis]

Why do you always reference per 48 when talking about players?

As Pop said once, those kinds of stats are useless. There's reasons why certain guys only play 10 mpg.

[ChumpDumper]

I can't see it being worth Scola's while to come over starting at 6$ million / 3years. He's just leaving to much money on the table.How much more would he make in Spain?

[Kori Ellis]

So basically you think that he'll average 8.8 p and 5 r in 25 mpg? Elson and Oberto average 5 and 5 in 20 minutes (so 6.25/6.25 in 25). So you think Scola is just about their equivalent?

[pad300]

Why do you always reference per 48 when talking about players?

As Pop said once, those kinds of stats are useless. There's reasons why certain guys only play 10 mpg.

I don't alway use per 48, and there are reasons why some guys only play 10 mpg (lousy defence, foul trouble). In this case, the reason Scola would only be playing 20-25 MPg would be that I predict he would not be a great fit beside TD. Which is why he'd be forced into the backup role behind TD. Scola would for example, fit much better on the Jazz, with Okur's shooting range at C, while Scola would be the primary post scorer. In a situation like that, I can see Scola starting, and playing 30-35 MPG. At which point, he might well get a larger contract at 30. I still can't really see him getting more than 25million/5years. At that age, people might overpay for 7 ft C's, but not for 6'8" PF's...

[ChumpDumper]

Scola would for example, fit much better on the JazzThe let's trade him for Matt Harpring.

[pad300]

How much more would he make in Spain?

Well, my understanding is his current contract was 14 million Euro's/10 years, starting as a unproven 17 year old. He's now a 2 time Euroleague MVP, local fan favorite, in his prime, and there's been 10 years of inflation. I figure he'd get a minimum of 14 million Euros/7 years. At 1.3 US$/Euro, and Euro contracts being announced post taxes, theapproximate equivalent annual salary

NBA Equivalent Salary = [(1-(1/3))^-1]*(2000000*1.3) = 1.5*2600000 ~ 3.9 million per year.

Assuming no buyout to be paid to his current club.
The real question is how big of a contract can he expect after his "rookie" NBA contract. I think he's gambling big if he thinks more than $20 million over 5 years, due to the factors I outlined in previous posts. At that point, he's leaving at least 3 or 4 million on the table. If it goes bad, and he gets say an Elson level contract at 30, say 10.5 million for 3 years? Then I'd say he's leaving 15-20 million. If he hits it out of the park - $30 million over 5 years, he's making maybe 5 to 10 million...

[Kori Ellis]

Well, my understanding is his current contract was 14 million Euro's/10 years, starting as a unproven 17 year old.

Where did you hear that?

I always heard from people in the Argentinean media that his original contract was 10 year/7M Euros.

[pad300]

So basically you think that he'll average 8.8 p and 5 r in 25 mpg? Elson and Oberto average 5 and 5 in 20 minutes (so 6.25/6.25 in 25). So you think Scola is just about their equivalent?

As you say, there's reasons some people only play 20 MPG. In Elson and Oberto's cases, I think they are both pretty limited. For example, with the Nuggets, Elson got 20 MPG as well. With there usual starting C (camby) suffering his typical high injury level. Whereas Scola, would be caught somewhat in a bad fit crunch. On another team, he might get 30-35 mpg. It's just our PF slot is really strong (assuming TD plays PF).

The question I think you are getting at, is a backup player worth 3.5 million/year. I don't think that is overpaying for the 3ed big. In an Ideal world...
Ranking, Salary per year
1st Big - $14 million
2nd Big - $5-6 Million (MLE money), 2nd starter (for a different team , Scola fits here)
3ed Big - 1/2 the MLE (2.5-3.5 million), 1st big off the bench (Scola fits here for us)
4th -6ths bigs - Vet Min (max 2 million)

Total Expenditure on Bigs ~ 28 Million

2 Starting Wings ~ 12-14 million
2 Backups ~ 5-7 Million
2 Warm bodies ~ Vet minimum ($3 million forthe pair, max)

Total Expenditure on Wings ~ 22 Million,

Starting PG, (~10 million)
Backup PG, (2-4 million)
3d PG Vet Min (up to 2 Million)

Total Expenditure on PGs ~ 15 Million,

Overall Payroll - 65 million

Slightly over Lux tax, having a rookie contract or 2 in the top 10 players would help a lot...

I think in the modern NBA, to be strongly competitive you need to be pushing the Lux tax. You can stay under the tax with at least 1 rook contract in your top 10 players. The spurs cheat a little, with under investment in their starting wings (Bowen is cheap) and the second big spot...

[pad300]

Where did you hear that?

I always heard from people in the Argentinean media that his original contract was 10 year/7M Euros.

Internet discussion like this one. I've yet to find an equivalent for Patricia's NBA salaries for Europe. (or anything even close).

BTW, do you know if there is anyone out there who keeps track of NBA front office people? It would be really interesting to see if Isiah has a favourite US scout we could pirate. I find it hard to believe that he's so good at spotting talent in the draft, but can't seem to evaluate it in trades...

[Kori Ellis]

Internet discussion like this one. I've yet to find an equivalent for Patricia's NBA salaries for Europe. (or anything even close).

BTW, do you know if there is anyone out there who keeps track of NBA front office people? It would be really interesting to see if Isiah has a favourite US scout we could pirate. I find it hard to believe that he's so good at spotting talent in the draft, but can't seem to evaluate it in trades...

On this page it lists all the Knicks scouts, their directors of scouting, etc.

http://www.nba.com/knicks/news/knicks_team_directory.html

[pad300]

On this page it lists all the Knicks scouts, their directors of scouting, etc.

http://www.nba.com/knicks/news/knicks_team_directory.html


Yeah, but that's only the current guys. The real question is there any commonality with Isiah's Toronto guys in 1994 to 1998, and Indiana in 2000-2003. I don't think that there is anyone but the NBA itself with the historical info...

[ArgSpursFan]

If Scola never comes over, there are 20-30 other players the Spurs could try to get and never have to think about him again.

True,nobody is saying that Scola is the best PF in the world.But at the same time,HOW MUCH DO YOU THINK THE SPURS WOULD PAY FOR ANOTHER PF NOT SCOLA WHO CAN PLAY AT THE SAME BALL LEVEL THAM HIM?
that could cost the spurs from 5M to at least 8M p/year for a half way decent player at most.
but they won´t pay 3.5 M for him cause he comes from Europe,Stupid

[ArgSpursFan]

As far as Fame goes, already really famous in Argentina and Europe. But he's never going to be a big name in the US.

I beat you thought the same shit when the spurs drafted a nobody called Manu ginobili back in 99 in a SECOND round pick as well.

[JPB]

I don't care if he would become or not a big name in the NBA. I'm more interested in what he could bring to the court.

[ArgSpursFan]

Listen,After all the quotes I´ve been reading on this threads,arguin for a 1.5M a year deference between what Scola wants and what ths spurs would pay him.How much you Honestly think the spurs could loose IF the team don´t get pass the playoffs 1st.round?as far as Home games tikets,TV rights(world wide),Merchandising,playoffs league pass etc,etc,etc,etc
Think about it,sometimes aint to good to be cheap.

[ArgSpursFan]

I don't care if he would become or not a big name in the NBA. I'm more interested in what he could bring to the court.

So,you like matt Bonner better right?.
get a life

[AFBlue]

True,nobody is saying that Scola is the best PF in the world.But at the same time,HOW MUCH DO YOU THINK THE SPURS WOULD PAY FOR ANOTHER PF NOT SCOLA WHO CAN PLAY AT THE SAME BALL LEVEL THAM HIM?
that could cost the spurs from 5M to at least 8M p/year for a half way decent player at most.
but they won´t pay 3.5 M for him cause he comes from Europe,Stupid

The point is that no one knows what level he will be able to play at in the NBA because it's a different stage. I think he'll be solid, but there IS some associated risk involved.

You might be right (Scola could be a solid starter and worth $5-8M per year) or you might be wrong (Scola is a classic role guy or worse worth $3M or less), but it really doesn't matter....

It's a calculated risk, but one that the Spurs FO should take for lack of better options.

[JPB]

So,you like matt Bonner better right?.
get a life

:dizzy

I don't get you here, I was defending your boy...

[ArgSpursFan]

:dizzy

I don't get you here, I was defending your boy...
sorry dude,my bad :dizzy
kind of busy at work couldn´t read right
I apologize

[AFBlue]

Listen,After all the quotes I´ve been reading on this threads,arguin for a 1.5M a year deference between what Scola wants and what ths spurs would pay him.How much you Honestly think the spurs could loose IF the team don´t get pass the playoffs 1st.round?as far as Home games tikets,TV rights(world wide),Merchandising,playoffs league pass etc,etc,etc,etc
Think about it,sometimes aint to good to be cheap.

Being "cheap" as you call it has been the Spurs FO mantra. You may not like it, but it's the reality of the situation. The Spurs just favor a cautious, conservative approach when it comes to contracts.

[ArgSpursFan]

Being "cheap" as you call it has been the Spurs FO mantra. You may not like it, but it's the reality of the situation. The Spurs just favor a cautious, conservative approach when it comes to contracts.

You right,that´s why they reather look at players like Scola tham other guys that would cost them a fortune.
But like I said,SOMETIMES when you go from cheap to real cheap+knowing that your roster is getting older and older,specially your bigs guys,you may end up loosing way more tham the money you ¨THINK¨you saved.

[ArgSpursFan]

oh,BTW,I agree with the spurs being conservatives as far as money investments on their roster,I really think they´ve being very smart over the years,but i think there´s a diference between being conservatives tham being cheap.
In my personal opinion they got cheap with Scola.may be becase they always did and paid what they wanted to 2nd rounders,not known in the US kind of players.
But reality sais that the spurs bench(mostly on big guys)is the worse in the NBA right now(as far as 0.500+wins teams )

[AFBlue]

oh,BTW,I agree with the spurs being conservatives as far as money investments on their roster,I really think they´ve being very smart over the years,but i think there´s a diference between being conservatives tham being cheap.
In my personal opinion they got cheap with Scola.may be becase they always did and paid what they wanted to 2nd rounders,not known in the US kind of players.
But reality sais that the spurs bench(mostly on big guys)is the worse in the NBA right now(as far as 0.500+wins teams )

They didn't pay Scola because they thought they were good with what they had....and to be fair, they had a lot of "potential" suitors for the "other big" spot.

I think the struggle to cement someone at that position this season will have them looking closely in the off-season to finding a better solution....and IMO, Scola is that solution (at least for the short-term).

It's also important to note the thin line between being "smart" and being "cheap" when it comes to contract decisions. "Smart" was letting Nazr go, but maybe it was "cheap" not to pay Scola. The Spurs have done a good job at staying on the right side of that line for the most part.

[ArgSpursFan]

They didn't pay Scola because they thought they were good with what they had....and to be fair, they had a lot of "potential" suitors for the "other big" spot.

I think the struggle to cement someone at that position this season will have them looking closely in the off-season to finding a better solution....and IMO, Scola is that solution (at least for the short-term).

It's also important to note the thin line between being "smart" and being "cheap" when it comes to contract decisions. "Smart" was letting Nazr go, but maybe it was "cheap" not to pay Scola. The Spurs have done a good job at staying on the right side of that line for the most part.

They should´ve thought that Timmy wasn´t 25 no more in the offseason,don´t you think?
This is not becoming a Duncan hate thread,please don´t get me wrong,but we all know that Timmy would take care of the paint by him self (with guys like Oberto and Elson) if he was still 25 this year.

[AFBlue]

They should´ve thought that Timmy wasn´t 25 no more in the offseason,don´t you think?
This is not becoming a Duncan hate thread,please don´t get me wrong,but we all know that Timmy would take care of the paint by him self (with guys like Oberto and Elson) if he was still 25 this year.

I don't really think Tim Duncan's status should have had anything to do with signing Scola in the off-season. If Timmy really was injured or "declining", adding Scola would be like putting a bandaid on a broken leg. While I think Scola is a better option than any "other big" the Spurs have currently and a potentially solid starter, I don't think the Spurs have any dilusions that he'll be Tim Duncan's statistical replacement. I think the Spurs FO has every confidence that Tim Duncan will be able to play at a high level for at least a few more years.

I do think it was a miscalculation on their part to consider Elson/Oberto as a suitable tandem to work alongside Duncan, and it's one that they will/should look to remedy in the off-season....IMO Scola is that remedy.

[mountainballer]

Being "cheap" as you call it has been the Spurs FO mantra. You may not like it, but it's the reality of the situation. The Spurs just favor a cautious, conservative approach when it comes to contracts.

yes, we know that. the problem is, that things have changed a lot from 2002 till now.
two reasons:
1: Euro teams started handing out contracts, that are similar or even better, than thoses NBA minimum or LLE contracts are.
yes, to make the quan, you still have to go to the NBA, but if you are a star player in Europe, you can also make enough money for your whole life, if you sign one of thoses 5-10 million dollar contracts, the premium players are offered nowadays. (if I remember right, that is close to the quan, wasn't it 11 million that Rod finally got? ok, it's some years back)
if Spurs keep offering half of the money this players can get in Europe, arguing that they own their rights, they just won't persue them to sign any more. usually a player also wants to go to a team, that really wants him. the European team do want thoses players and show it in money and in love and not just by let the bookkeeper make a call.

2: scouting of NBA scouts in Europe has developed a lot during the last 5 years (also a result of the Spurs draft success with Euros 1999-2002). the Manus and Scolas of the future won't fall to the second round any more.
Spurs FO hasn't reacted to this by intensifying scouting at home AND by taking (and paying) what they already have. Scola will be last player of this calibre, who will fall to the Spurs hands in the 2nd round.
Sanikidze and Karaulov are the new reality. (add Beno, even a 1st rounder though)
Duhon could be a Spur, Ariza could be a Spurs (if they didn't let Atlanta pick Sanikidze) and with the totally wasted Karaulov pick they could have also drafted Butler, who they two years later decided to favour over Scola.
Spurs FO have to realize, that the golden days of overlooked Euro talent are over. they had their share in Manu, Giricek, Tony and Scola. they missed the opportunity to get more out of the Giricek rights, because then they also refused to sign him. he would have signed an even worse contract than Manu did back in 2002. some months later, they could have traded him for much more than the 2nd rounder they got from Grizzlies.

and back to the beginning.
yes, Spurs are cheap. but you have to be cheap and smart.
Spurs were smart till 2002. they still live from the smart moves of that days.
unluckyly they lost the smart part and not the cheap.
to be just cheap and not smart will rather make you the Clippers of 2000.

[AFBlue]

yes, we know that. the problem is, that things have changed a lot from 2002 till now.
two reasons:
1: Euro teams started handing out contracts, that are similar or even better, than thoses NBA minimum or LLE contracts are.
yes, to make the quan, you still have to go to the NBA, but if you are a star player in Europe, you can also make enough money for your whole life, if you sign one of thoses 5-10 million dollar contracts, the premium players are offered nowadays. (if I remember right, that is close to the quan, wasn't it 11 million that Rod finally got? ok, it's some years back)
if Spurs keep offering half of the money this players can get in Europe, arguing that they own their rights, they just won't persue them to sign any more. usually a player also wants to go to a team, that really wants him. the European team do want thoses players and show it in money and in love and not just by let the bookkeeper make a call.

2: scouting of NBA scouts in Europe has developed a lot during the last 5 years (also a result of the Spurs draft success with Euros 1999-2002). the Manus and Scolas of the future won't fall to the second round any more.
Spurs FO hasn't reacted to this by intensifying scouting at home AND by taking (and paying) what they already have. Scola will be last player of this calibre, who will fall to the Spurs hands in the 2nd round.
Sanikidze and Karaulov are the new reality. (add Beno, even a 1st rounder though)
Duhon could be a Spur, Ariza could be a Spurs (if they didn't let Atlanta pick Sanikidze) and with the totally wasted Karaulov pick they could have also drafted Butler, who they two years later decided to favour over Scola.
Spurs FO have to realize, that the golden days of overlooked Euro talent are over. they had their share in Manu, Giricek, Tony and Scola. they missed the opportunity to get more out of the Giricek rights, because then they also refused to sign him. he would have signed an even worse contract than Manu did back in 2002. some months later, they could have traded him for much more than the 2nd rounder they got from Grizzlies.

and back to the beginning.
yes, Spurs are cheap. but you have to be cheap and smart.
Spurs were smart till 2002. they still live from the smart moves of that days.
unluckyly they lost the smart part and not the cheap.
to be just cheap and not smart will rather make you the Clippers of 2000.

I put "cheap" in quotations because I feel that the Spurs have been more "fiscally responsible" and "smart" than "cheap" on the whole. I'm not going to say their haven't been missteps, but I personally still put trust in the FO to make the "smart" decision. That may change, but for now it's the way I feel...

I completely agree with you on point #2 about the changing international scouting environment. The Spurs were just better at scouting international talent in 2002, which is why Scola slipped all the way to the second round. If Scola were to come out now, I could make the argument that he goes mid-late first round (a drastic improvement over his 2002 selection) simply based on other teams ramping up their international scouting.

I disagree with you on your first point though. Though there are some players content to spend most of their careers overseas, I think Luis is one of those that wants to prove himself on the NBA stage. He was pissed two years ago that the Spurs didn't end up bringing him over and I think that's because he REALLY wanted to come over. I doubt that has changed, even with the increased salary that he could be offered overseas.

[Dartherus]

QUOTE OF JOHN THOMPSON IN 2001, ABOUT SCOLA'S HEIGHT

"As far as Luis goes. I watched him work out and get measured at 6-9 and liked what I saw, but many scouts weren't nearly as impressed as I was. AS far as his height. He is a legit 6-9, but no taller. Even the pictures you sent actually prove that. Kornegay is actually closer to 6-7 1/2 without shoes, BUT if you look OBVIOUSLY his legs are spread out and only an inch shorter. If his legs were straight, he'd be just a half an inch shorter or less than Scola. In other picture Dion, who is actually around 6-8 even, had his head bent. Trust me on heights, every scout I have ever met says I have a unique ability to judge accurate height of a player, even by looking at a picture. It probably comes from a few medical classes when I was getting my psychology degree. I don't know. IF I was listing Luis, I would easily say
6-9 1/3 with shoes, but around 6-8 1/2 without shoes."

6-9 1/3 (that would be 2.07, what is listed in Euroleague's site) with shoes (as NBA players are listed)....do you still think he would be 'undersized'?

[JPB]

QUOTE OF JOHN THOMPSON IN 2001, ABOUT SCOLA'S HEIGHT

"As far as Luis goes. I watched him work out and get measured at 6-9 and liked what I saw, but many scouts weren't nearly as impressed as I was. AS far as his height. He is a legit 6-9, but no taller. Even the pictures you sent actually prove that. Kornegay is actually closer to 6-7 1/2 without shoes, BUT if you look OBVIOUSLY his legs are spread out and only an inch shorter. If his legs were straight, he'd be just a half an inch shorter or less than Scola. In other picture Dion, who is actually around 6-8 even, had his head bent. Trust me on heights, every scout I have ever met says I have a unique ability to judge accurate height of a player, even by looking at a picture. It probably comes from a few medical classes when I was getting my psychology degree. I don't know. IF I was listing Luis, I would easily say
6-9 1/3 with shoes, but around 6-8 1/2 without shoes."

6-9 1/3 (that would be 2.07, what is listed in Euroleague's site) with shoes (as NBA players are listed)....do you still think he would be 'undersized'?

Not really, specially in small ball NBA. He could compensate with his mobility and technical skills anyway.

[AFBlue]

Not really, specially in small ball NBA. He could compensate with his mobility and technical skills anyway.

A legit point that I brought up not to far back. It's not like every team (especially in today's small-ball era) trots out the "twin towers". I think he could survive despite great height or length.

[ShoogarBear]

True,nobody is saying that Scola is the best PF in the world.But at the same time,HOW MUCH DO YOU THINK THE SPURS WOULD PAY FOR ANOTHER PF NOT SCOLA WHO CAN PLAY AT THE SAME BALL LEVEL THAM HIM?The point is we don't know what level Scola can play at in the NBA until he actually does it.

[ChumpDumper]

Resolved: Scola is the best player on the face of the earth.

Resolved: Scola will never be a Spur.

[ArgSpursFan]

Resolved: Scola is the best player on the face of the earth.

Resolved: Scola will never be a Spur.

1 item=not true
2 item=either

[Solid D]

Pau Orthez looks like a collection of Spurs' Summer League alumni. By my count, they have no fewer than 5 players who have toiled for the Spurs in Boston or Salt Lake City over the past few summers.

Michael Wright, Pau's leading scorer, played in the frontcourt for the Spurs in Boston one summer alongside Udonis Haslem. Wright was a bit undersized, height-wise and struggled in the post against taller Bigs back then. He has taken the bulk of the minutes in the post for Pau Orthez - minutes Ian Mahinmi would have played, had Ian shown a more mature game.

Britton Johnsen, a summer league stand-out at the RMR is Pau's second leading scorer at 11.5 ppg. Thin but tall, this SF actually plays the 4 for Pau alongside Wright.

Melvin Sanders, joined the team late but statistically is now Pau's third leading scorer. We all know Melvin and what he can do.

Ricardo Greer, is Pau's leading rebounder at 5.9 rpg, which isn't saying much for Pau, but says something for Ricardo considering he's a 6'5" (196 cm) guard/wing. Ricardo played with Devin Brown in Boston at the Reebock Summer League Series for the Spurs but didn't see major minutes there.

Ian Mahinmi is beginning to see more PT for Pau but that remains to be seen as Euroleague competition heats up in Top-16 play starting on Valentine's Day. Ian seems to contribute defensively but his offensive progress has been slow. Ian was a fouling machine for the Spurs last summer.

[Kori Ellis]

QUOTE OF JOHN THOMPSON IN 2001, ABOUT SCOLA'S HEIGHT

"As far as Luis goes. I watched him work out and get measured at 6-9 and liked what I saw, but many scouts weren't nearly as impressed as I was. AS far as his height. He is a legit 6-9, but no taller. Even the pictures you sent actually prove that. Kornegay is actually closer to 6-7 1/2 without shoes, BUT if you look OBVIOUSLY his legs are spread out and only an inch shorter. If his legs were straight, he'd be just a half an inch shorter or less than Scola. In other picture Dion, who is actually around 6-8 even, had his head bent. Trust me on heights, every scout I have ever met says I have a unique ability to judge accurate height of a player, even by looking at a picture. It probably comes from a few medical classes when I was getting my psychology degree. I don't know. IF I was listing Luis, I would easily say
6-9 1/3 with shoes, but around 6-8 1/2 without shoes."

6-9 1/3 (that would be 2.07, what is listed in Euroleague's site) with shoes (as NBA players are listed)....do you still think he would be 'undersized'?

I can find another quote on the internet somewhere that says he's close to 6'7. *shrug* But either way, he's not a 6'10 PF. And since he doesn't compensate for that lack of height with amazing hops, that's why people call him undersized. I think that's all people are saying.

[timvp]

Pau Orthez looks like a collection of Spurs' Summer League alumni. By my count, they have no fewer than 5 players who have toiled for the Spurs in Boston or Salt Lake City over the past few summers.

Michael Wright, Pau's leading scorer, played in the frontcourt for the Spurs in Boston one summer alongside Udonis Haslem. Wright was a bit undersized, height-wise and struggled in the post against taller Bigs back then. He has taken the bulk of the minutes in the post for Pau Orthez - minutes Ian Mahinmi would have played, had Ian shown a more mature game.

Britton Johnsen, a summer league stand-out at the RMR is Pau's second leading scorer at 11.5 ppg. Thin but tall, this SF actually plays the 4 for Pau alongside Wright.

Melvin Sanders, joined the team late but statistically is now Pau's third leading scorer. We all know Melvin and what he can do.

Ricardo Greer, is Pau's leading rebounder at 5.9 rpg, which isn't saying much for Pau, but says something for Ricardo considering he's a 6'5" (196 cm) guard/wing. Ricardo played with Devin Brown in Boston at the Reebock Summer League Series for the Spurs but didn't see major minutes there.

Ian Mahinmi is beginning to see more PT for Pau but that remains to be seen as Euroleague competition heats up in Top-16 play starting on Valentine's Day. Ian seems to contribute defensively but his offensive progress has been slow. Ian was a fouling machine for the Spurs last summer.

Add Aaron Miles to the list. He was close to signing (http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48809) with the Spurs before the season started. And too bad he didn't, because Miles would be the backup point guard right now.

I wonder if the NBA will close this loophole that lets the Spurs operate a foreign minor league program. Not only do they have all these connections, but the head coach of Pau-Orthez also helped coach the Spurs team in summer league a couple years back.

:hat

[objective]

wasn't it reported a couple of years ago that the Spurs had entered into some kind of formal relationship with an Italian team?

I can't find a link right now, but I do remember it. Wonder whatever happened, if there was any there there.

[timvp]

wasn't it reported a couple of years ago that the Spurs had entered into some kind of formal relationship with an Italian team?

I can't find a link right now, but I do remember it. Wonder whatever happened, if there was any there there.

I think the Italian team leaked to the media it when the Spurs wanted to keep it private. Then the Spurs came out and said that it was a bogus report.

Reading between the lines, the Spurs ended the relationship once it hit the media and then moved on to a new team that could keep a secret.

[Holt's Cat]

Hmmm...what makes the Spurs better today? It's great that the team works so hard at finding diamonds in the rough and turning them into role players but this team's window is this year and next.

[Solid D]

Add Aaron Miles to the list. He was close to signing (http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48809) with the Spurs before the season started. And too bad he didn't, because Miles would be the backup point guard right now.

I wonder if the NBA will close this loophole that lets the Spurs operate a foreign minor league program. Not only do they have all these connections, but the head coach of Pau-Orthez also helped coach the Spurs team in summer league a couple years back.

:hat

I remembered that the Spurs had worked him out but I didn't think he ever played for the Spurs' summer league squads. Aaron is good but he doesn't have the experience that fellow KU alumn Jacque Vaughn has. I do wonder how well Aaron would have done in the Spurs system.

[Dartherus]

QUOTE OF JOHN THOMPSON IN 2001, ABOUT SCOLA'S HEIGHT

"As far as Luis goes. I watched him work out and get measured at 6-9 and liked what I saw, but many scouts weren't nearly as impressed as I was. AS far as his height. He is a legit 6-9, but no taller. Even the pictures you sent actually prove that. Kornegay is actually closer to 6-7 1/2 without shoes, BUT if you look OBVIOUSLY his legs are spread out and only an inch shorter. If his legs were straight, he'd be just a half an inch shorter or less than Scola. In other picture Dion, who is actually around 6-8 even, had his head bent. Trust me on heights, every scout I have ever met says I have a unique ability to judge accurate height of a player, even by looking at a picture. It probably comes from a few medical classes when I was getting my psychology degree. I don't know. IF I was listing Luis, I would easily say
6-9 1/3 with shoes, but around 6-8 1/2 without shoes."

6-9 1/3 (that would be 2.07, what is listed in Euroleague's site) with shoes (as NBA players are listed)....do you still think he would be 'undersized'?

I can find another quote on the internet somewhere that says he's close to 6'7. *shrug* But either way, he's not a 6'10 PF. And since he doesn't compensate for that lack of height with amazing hops, that's why people call him undersized. I think that's all people are saying.
My point is, how many of those 'internet quotes' were about real basketball people who WERE IN THE TRAINING CAMPS? If you read the whole quote, it's a person who WAS in the camp and saw him in person, and the info is coincident with whtat was gotten in the Spanish training camp. Until now, I've yet to see one of the 'undersized' claims come from people who had really had acces to real training camp measurements.

What I have clear is that he's a LEGIT 6'9" (6'9 1/3 " with shoes, according to John Thompson). That alone, without considering his athleticism or vertical, is what I'm talking about. Is a 6'9" 240 PF, undersized? have you compared with most NBA PF? how many of them are LEGIT (not just listed in nba.com website) 6'9" or bigger ?

About his 'lack of athleticism? have you watched the HUGE block on Jermaine? how much 'lack of athleticism' was needed for that block?

Could it be possible that his STYLE (not dunking so often, because of relying more his GREAT post moves and fundamentals) make some people think that he can't jump?

My point is that players that can be even starters in NBA (like Oberto and Garbajosa to keep the same examples used before) are just his same Height, and Scola is stronger, faster and more athletic than them...so, why Garbajosa and Oberto are not 'undersized' and Scola is? that's what I truly don't get why it's so easy to put the 'undersized' label, ¿does anyone know?

[Kori Ellis]

Here's an old report on Scola that probably began his reputation of being undersized.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nbadraft/tracker/player?playerId=18336


Scouts think Scola may be a lot closer to 6-foot-7. He doesn't have the speed the most NBA post players have, nor does he have a long-range jumper that would allow him to play small forward in the pros.

[objective]

while Scola doesn't leap or run like Stromile Swift . . .

He is clearly above Oberto in athleticism, no doubt..

[timvp]

Mso, why Garbajosa and Oberto are not 'undersized' and Scola is? that's what I truly don't get why it's so easy to put the 'undersized' label, ¿does anyone know?

They are all three considered undersized. While Scola might be 6-foot-9 with shoes, his wingspan (which is oftentimes more important for NBA bigmen) isn't overly impressive. And while he's considered a good athlete in Europe, he'd be only an average athlete in the NBA.

I'm not saying he couldn't be a very good NBA player one day ... but compared to NBA power forwards, he has a below average wingspan, a below average standing reach, average height and average athleticism.

There's a pretty good chance that right now he's better than anyone on the Spurs outside of the big three. But then again, there's a chance that he won't be able to rebound, defend or score on the low block on the NBA level.

If money was no issue, I'd absolutely want him on the Spurs right now. But I understand what has prevented that from happening to this point.

[timvp]

He is clearly above Oberto in athleticism, no doubt..

I would like to the see a modern day NBA player who is less athletic.

[ArgSpursFan]

My point is, how many of those 'internet quotes' were about real basketball people who WERE IN THE TRAINING CAMPS? If you read the whole quote, it's a person who WAS in the camp and saw him in person, and the info is coincident with whtat was gotten in the Spanish training camp. Until now, I've yet to see one of the 'undersized' claims come from people who had really had acces to real training camp measurements.

What I have clear is that he's a LEGIT 6'9" (6'9 1/3 " with shoes, according to John Thompson). That alone, without considering his athleticism or vertical, is what I'm talking about. Is a 6'9" 240 PF, undersized? have you compared with most NBA PF? how many of them are LEGIT (not just listed in nba.com website) 6'9" or bigger ?

About his 'lack of athleticism? have you watched the HUGE block on Jermaine? how much 'lack of athleticism' was needed for that block?

Could it be possible that his STYLE (not dunking so often, because of relying more his GREAT post moves and fundamentals) make some people think that he can't jump?

My point is that players that can be even starters in NBA (like Oberto and Garbajosa to keep the same examples used before) are just his same Height, and Scola is stronger, faster and more athletic than them...so, why Garbajosa and Oberto are not 'undersized' and Scola is? that's what I truly don't get why it's so easy to put the 'undersized' label, ¿does anyone know?

It´s just because most of the folks in the forum haven´t watched Luis play against Guys like Jarmine,Tim D,Gabajoza and even Dirk and have a bad feeling about ¨not too tall PFs and Cs, because of what´s going on this year with Oberto.
They don´t realize that scola is 10 times stronger and faster and with more BBIQ tham Oberto.

[mountainballer]

They don´t realize that scola is 10 times stronger and faster and with more BBIQ tham Oberto.

10 times? wow. I guess most people here would be very happy with an increase of 10%.
:lol

[ArgSpursFan]

10 times? wow. I guess most people here would be very happy with an increase of 10%.
:lol

I know,funny thing is that the cheap spurs FO won´t pay for a 10 % increase,imagine a 10 times better player tham oberto,elson and bonner together.

[nkdlunch]

I would like to the see a modern day NBA player who is less athletic.

http://www.hoopsvibe.com/IMG/Zydrunas_Ilgauskas-arton21018-240x240.jpg

[ArgSpursFan]

while Scola doesn't leap or run like Stromile Swift . . .

He is clearly above Oberto in athleticism, no doubt..

thing is Swift is athletic but he has NO BRAIN,Luis does.

[ChumpDumper]

6' 9 1/3"!