ESPN Top 10 Centers

[whottt]

It's from the Thomson-Gale library archives. Still searching for a byline.


You do that...




....Your mother's blood encrusted year old tampon wrote it.



You wrote it? That's even worse than Wikipedia.





Go fuck yourself.

I'm not done fucking you yet.

[lefty]

Shaq = way overrated ; take away his brute strength and his elbowing in the face , and u are left with nothing.

Sure, Jordan took advantage of his athleticism ; Iverson uses his quickness ; but those guys can do other things too...

And don't get me started on the "Shaq has become an excellent passer over the years , wow..." I mean, when a much smaller guy comes to help, Shaq is supposed to make an adequate pass to an open guy, so nothing amazing there; when it comes to passing, he is no Walton or Sabonis....

Speaking of Sabonis, if it wasn't for political reasons, he should have joined the Blazers earlier, when he was younger and healtier ; we all aknowledge his talents and the way he sees the game ; when I was living in Europe, I watched Sabonis (Euroleague games) : the guy was running and dunking like D-Rob, no kidding !!!! combine that with his amzing talents, and Jordan wouldn't have won shit in the early 90's

[whottt]

Go read my post in this thread :reading


I read it...it's Beno level of Drob defense. But you're showing signs of improvement.

I give you props because I know that to truly advocate Drob you put the knife in the back of one of your favorites. But it still a ways off from reality.


I cannot belive people when evaluating C cannot see the difference guys like Wade, Kobe, Drexler etc meant to their bigmen over guys like Vinny and AJ.

[whottt]

John Lucas was trying to increase Robinson's competetive fire, because Dave didn't give a shit about scoring titles, or NBA titles for that matter. It sort of backfired because Robinson was used up for the playoffs, and the Spurs got eliminated by an inferior squad (again). This time a team of guys that got a lot of rest at the end of the year.



Worst take in the history of Spurs talk...


You must be on some serious fucking crack if you think Drob was the reason that 93-94 team lost in the playoffs.

Vinny Del Negro was the fucking starting PG on that team.

Did you look at who David's guards were in that Clipper game?

Vinny Del Nego and Lloyd Daniels?


And you think that team lost to an inferior team?

That had Karl Malone, John Stockton, Jeff Hornacek, Tom Chambers?


Worst post ever. Take the side arguing against Drob please...if you think that team was inferior to the Spurs squad.

Don't let the fact that Drob carried that lump of shit to 50 wins misguide you...that's what Drob did, that none of these other guys could.

He was just good enough to get his shitty team in over their heads.

[SRJ]

whott is defending Dave admirably, but I'd just like to add that in 1994, when Robinson led the league in scoring, he led the team in assists. That particular double is quite rare. It shouldn't have happened considering the players Dave had to pass to.

[Don Quixote]

You must be on some serious crack if you think Drob was the reason that 93-94 team lost in the playoffs.

Vinny Del Negro was the starting PG on that team.

Did you look at who David's guards were in that Clipper game?

Vinny Del Nego and Lloyd Daniels?

And you think that team lost to an inferior team? That had Karl Malone, John Stockton, Jeff Hornacek, Tom Chambers?

Worst post ever. Take the side arguing against Drob please...if you think that team was inferior to the Spurs squad.

Don't let the fact that Drob carried that lump of plop to 50 wins misguide you...that's what Drob did, that none of these other guys could.

He was just good enough to get his crummy team in over their heads.

Great take.

Those teams under John Lucas were somewhat above average at best. They had David, Sean Elliott, Avery Johnson before he became a great player, and that's about it. It was thanks to Dave that they ever made the playoffs to begin with. Of course, those 50-win Spurs teams were still a whole lot better than those chumps up in Dallas at the time.

[Don Quixote]

whott is defending Dave admirably, but I'd just like to add that in 1994, when Robinson led the league in scoring, he led the team in assists. That particular double is quite rare. It shouldn't have happened considering the players Dave had to pass to.

Did we mention the quadruple-double against the Pistons that year? Or was it the year before? I remember listening to that game on the radio as a teenager. No one's done it since.

[Spurminator]

The 1994 San Antonio Spurs Playoff Roster:



Playoffs
Glossary

+-----------------------------------------------------------+------------+------------------+
| Total | Shooting | Per Game |
+-----------------------------------------------------------+------------+------------------+
Name | G MP FG FGA 3P 3PA FT FTA TRB AST STL BLK TO PF PTS| FG% 3P% FT%| MP TRB AST PTS|
+----------------------+--+----+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+----+---+---+---+----+----+----+
David Robinson | 4 146 30 73 0 1 20 27 40 14 3 10 9 14 80| 41 0 74| 37 10.0 3.5 20.0|
Dale Ellis | 4 114 17 43 5 17 3 5 10 1 3 0 4 6 42| 40 29 60| 29 2.5 0.3 10.5|
Negele Knight | 4 108 13 41 0 3 11 12 6 12 3 0 7 9 37| 32 0 92| 27 1.5 3.0 9.3|
Willie Anderson | 4 106 14 37 1 1 4 7 8 12 5 2 4 7 33| 38 100 57| 27 2.0 3.0 8.3|
Terry Cummings | 4 72 11 22 0 0 10 12 25 2 5 3 4 10 32| 50 83| 18 6.3 0.5 8.0|
Vinny Del Negro | 4 93 12 27 2 4 3 5 7 18 1 0 6 6 29| 44 50 60| 23 1.8 4.5 7.3|
Dennis Rodman | 3 114 12 24 0 5 1 6 48 2 6 4 6 14 25| 50 0 17| 38 16.0 0.7 8.3|
Lloyd Daniels | 4 66 8 20 4 8 2 2 9 3 0 1 2 4 22| 40 50 100| 17 2.3 0.8 5.5|
Antoine Carr | 3 37 5 11 0 0 8 9 1 3 1 2 0 7 18| 45 89| 12 0.3 1.0 6.0|
J.R. Reid | 4 56 6 21 0 0 3 5 12 3 1 2 1 10 15| 29 60| 14 3.0 0.8 3.8|
Jack Haley | 3 11 4 8 0 0 5 6 7 2 0 0 0 3 13| 50 83| 4 2.3 0.7 4.3|
Sleepy Floyd | 4 37 2 8 0 0 2 4 1 1 0 0 4 3 6| 25 50| 9 0.3 0.3 1.5|
+----------------------+--+----+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+----+---+---+---+----+----+----+

[whottt]

David Robinson lead the 93-94 Spurs in:

Probably easier to say what he didn't lead it in...

Rebounding
FT%
3PA
3P%(although he did come in fourth in that shooting 345%...may not be impressive unless you consider the fact that in that AJ never shot that from 3...and the number of threes Drob made that year is about equal to the number AJ made in his entire 19 year career being begged to shoot more than 2 feet outside of the basket by opposing teams).


That inferior Jazz team only had the NBA's all time leading passer, second leading scorer an All Star and a HOF level talent on it.

That's was Drob worst poseason performance ever...I wonder why...the Jazz literally would collapse they entire team on Drob when ever he got the ball.


And the only player on that team that wasn't shit was Rodman, but he was absolute shit in that series...and he was so busy trying to get in Madonna's pants Lucas suspended him for a game. He was showing up late to practice, showing up late for pre game, in the playoffs. Madonna and Rodman, nuff said.



To quote John Lucas...that team needed to be out of the playoffs.

[monosylab1k]

You do that...





You wrote it? That's even worse than Wikipedia.






I'm not done fucking you yet.

You fuck your mom's year old blood encrusted tampon?

[mardigan]

Damn that line up sucked, was that the year we traded Sean?

[whottt]

You fuck your mom's year old blood encrusted tampon?



Ok that was pretty funny :tu

Too bad you suck ass other than that.

[whottt]

Damn that line up sucked, was that the year we traded Sean?



It sucks worse than it seems...

That Terry Cummings was the one without knees.
That Willie Anderson was the one without shins.
That Sleepy Floyd was gooooooooooone, playing in his final season and on his last NBA legs.


And those were the good players on that team.

I mean Vinny Del Negro..a second string shooting guard at best, was the starting PG on that team.


I want to see Shaq and Hakeem and Kareem win a fucking title with that team. Fuck, I just want to see them make the playoffs with it....much less win 50+ games.

[monosylab1k]

Ok that was pretty funny :tu

Too bad you suck ass other than that.

thanks. i try. not the ass sucking part. the other one.

[mardigan]

It sucks worse that it seems...

That Terry Cummings was the one without knees.
That Willie Anderson was the one without shins.
That Sleepy Floyd was gooooooooooone, playing in his final season and on his last NBA legs.


And those were the good players on that team.

Yea I saw that Nigele Knight was the second leading scorer in the playoffs, I cant believe Dave was even able to take that team that far

[Spurminator]

I didn't remember that team being that bad.

I mean... Negele Fucking Knight!

John Lucas should have won Coach of the Decade for getting 55 wins out of that team.

[Don Quixote]

You have relations with your mom?

"Hold on ... yes, Mr. Cuban. Good to talk to you ... yes, I know! [laughter] I see you took my advice on the Youtube stock. Look, Mark, one of your children must have wandered over here from the kiddy table. Ya think you could come get him?

We were hoping for an intelligent Mavs fan, but we ended up with this one .... [laughter]. Yaknow, at first he was funny, but now he's getting a little carried away. Yeah, I know, but what can you do? These kids listen to their rap all day, surf the net, read Democratic Underground. [talking] I know! Anyhoo, Mark, yathink you can send us a couple of intelligent fans? We'd appreciate it."

[lefty]

Shaq = way overrated ; take away his brute strength and his elbowing in the face , and u are left with nothing.

Sure, Jordan took advantage of his athleticism ; Iverson uses his quickness ; but those guys can do other things too...

And don't get me started on the "Shaq has become an excellent passer over the years , wow..." I mean, when a much smaller guy comes to help, Shaq is supposed to make an adequate pass to an open guy, so nothing amazing there; when it comes to passing, he is no Walton or Sabonis....

Speaking of Sabonis, if it wasn't for political reasons, he should have joined the Blazers earlier, when he was younger and healtier ; we all aknowledge his talents and the way he sees the game ; when I was living in Europe, I watched Sabonis (Euroleague games) : the guy was running and dunking like D-Rob, no kidding !!!! combine that with his amzing talents, and Jordan wouldn't have won shit in the early 90's

[monosylab1k]

"Hold on ... yes, Mr. Cuban. Good to talk to you ... yes, I know! [laughter] I see you took my advice on the Youtube stock. Look, Mark, I'm in serious need of having a gigantic stick yanked out of my ass. Could you advise?

We were hoping that the lump of coal up there would be a diamond by now, but we've gotta wait a few weeks for that. Yaknow, at first I thought it was funny to take the moral high ground with Mavs fans...and then I realized that Spurs fans fling as much of the trash talking as anybody else. I need you to find a way to ban Democratic Underground...you see, they don't agree with my Republican political hero, Dick Cheney. He tells fellow politicians to "go fuck yourself" on the floor of Congress. [talking] I know! Exactly like the Mavs fan that I'm trying to take the high ground on! Except he's not some random guy on a message board, he's the Vice President! Anyhoo, Mark, yathink you can show me how to not be a hypocrite? I'd appreciate it."

fixed

[monosylab1k]

Ok that was pretty funny :tu

Too bad you suck ass other than that.

BTW can't find a byline. So fuck it, you win that one. I still somewhat stand by the article tho because it wasn't some BS wikipedia creation.

I still think the 71 points was cheap, and I'd still take Shaq over Robinson no matter what the numbers are. But let me restate one more time that I've always like Drob and his game. The guy was incredible. All i was saying was that he DID give a shit about that scoring title. That's all.

[Don Quixote]

fixed

Ah, little brother. So angry ...

Why are you so upset? Your team has won 16 straight. They're kicking everybody's butt.

I mean, if they sucked, I could understand the need to take a crap on some other team's message board. But they don't. They're winning, and they haven't choked yet. So bask in it. Enjoy it.

It's not like anyone's going to take away the Mav's prior titles, MVP awards, scoring titles, etc.

[lefty]

There yo go ; a little cheesy, but some highlights of young skinny healthy Sabonis

http://youtube.com/watch?v=JLu2SlE85tg

[monosylab1k]

Ah, little brother. So angry ...

Why are you so upset? Your team has won 16 straight. They're kicking everybody's butt.

I mean, if they sucked, I could understand the need to take a crap on some other team's message board. But they don't. They're winning, and they haven't choked yet. So bask in it. Enjoy it.

It's not like anyone's going to take away the Mav's prior titles, MVP awards, scoring titles, etc.

LOL do you even know what thread you're posting in? Read the title. We've been discussing DAVID ROBINSON and the TOP CENTERS. Someone made one throwaway diss about me being a Mavs fan, so I returned the favor. Other than that this has been about David Robinson and other great centers, and all the discussion and debate that it has spawned. Not shit to do with the failures of the Dallas Mavericks. So maybe I'm so "angry" because you have no clue where you're posting at, yet you insist on being a dick.

If you'd like to talk down to Mavs fans and actually be on-topic about it, there's plenty of threads in the NBA News forum. Have fun.

[Don Quixote]

And I'm okay with Shaq being as high as he was. You really think he wouldn't have averaged 50 pts., 25 boards a game in the 1960s? And I don't really care that some no-talent hip-hop with the initials SJ didn't vote for David.

While there are some people out there who wake up each day angry (over what? I dunno ... ), I don't define my happiness over what happens in Washington, or who likes my team, for that matter. This is America. Life is good.

Oh well ... this thread is pretty much dead. I will say that Mavs Fan, as usual, is good for a laugh. Gosh, it will be high comedy to see them choke in the playoffs again. Or, at best, they win. And we'll say, "So what? Little brother got his ring. Whoopdedo."

[mardigan]

David Robinson for President

[Don Quixote]

LOL do you even know what thread you're posting in? Read the title. We've been discussing DAVID ROBINSON and the TOP CENTERS. Someone made one throwaway diss about me being a Mavs fan, so I returned the favor. Other than that this has been about David Robinson and other great centers, and all the discussion and debate that it has spawned. Not jack to do with the failures of the Dallas Mavericks. So maybe I'm so "angry" because you have no clue where you're posting at, yet you insist on being a jerk.

If you'd like to talk down to Mavs fans and actually be on-topic about it, there's plenty of threads in the NBA News forum. Have fun.

You guys are a hoot.

So, what were David Robinson's career stats against the Mavericks? What were they in the '01 playoff series, which S.A. won 4-1? How about the '03 playoffs? Those, I think, would be relevant to the discussion.

For that matter, how has Shaq fared against Dallas over his career? How did Hakeem do? I'm sure someone here has access to those stats.

[lefty]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=JLu2SlE85tg :madrun :madrun :madrun :madrun

[monosylab1k]

You guys are a hoot.

So, what were David Robinson's career stats against the Mavericks? What were they in the '01 playoff series, which S.A. won 4-1? How about the '03 playoffs? Those, I think, would be relevant to the discussion.

For that matter, how has Shaq fared against Dallas over his career? How did Hakeem do? I'm sure someone here has access to those stats.

Probably kicked the shit out of the Mavs. not probably, definitely did. Both of them. The Mavericks sucked for a very long time. That's not some hidden mystery. I didn't bring up a thing about how good the Mavs are/were. Moving on...

[lefty]

Damn, I must have the power of invisibility....

[mardigan]

Damn, I must have the power of invisibility....

Everyones to busy fighting

[Don Quixote]

Probably kicked the poop out of the Mavs. not probably, definitely did. Both of them. The Mavericks sucked for a very long time. That's not some hidden mystery. Moving on...

Oh, now Mavs Fan wants to move on, now that we're talking about how 3 of the greatest centers beat them like red-headed sisters repeatedly in the 90s and into the 21st century. So I take it we should go back to bringing up crude insults involving our relatives or feminine hygiene, or copying some anti-Republican screed someone got off the internet?

I have a good idea for a relevant study: The 10 greatest games played against the Mavs by David, Hakeem, Shaq, and ... Ewing. Anyone have the stats for those?

[monosylab1k]

Oh, now Mavs Fan wants to move on, now that we're talking about how 3 of the greatest centers beat them like red-headed sisters repeatedly in the 90s and into the 21st century.

No, I want to move on because there's nothing else to discuss. They beat the hell out of the Mavericks. End of story. You tell me what possible stance anybody could take against this? If you want to rehash it, go ahead. And nobody will give a shit, because it doesn't matter.


So I take it we should go back to bringing up crude insults involving our relatives or feminine hygiene, or copying some anti-Republican screed someone got off the internet?

No, we should go back to bringing up lame fake letters to Mark Cuban or copying some anti-Democrat screed someone got off Fox News.

[DOMINATOR]

id just like to say Mavsfan1000 is an ignorant moron.

olajuwon the only player in history to win the MVP, Finals MVP and DPOY in the same season. no one can defend the dream shake.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRGAF0

Kareem
Wilt
Olajuwon
Russell
Shaq
Robinson
Malone
walton
mikan
ewing

[spur219]

Its like this:
1: Wilt Chamberlain
2. Abdul Jabbar
3.Bill Russel
4. Olajuwon
5. Shaq
6. DROB
7. Ewing
8. Malone
9. Walton
10. Mikan

this is the real order.

[lefty]

Hakeem got away with LOTS of travelings

[Cry Havoc]

1. Wilt
2. Russel
3. Jabbar
4. Hakeem
5. Malone
6. Drob
7. Shaq
8. Ewing

Not sure about Mikan, though I don't feel Walton deserves to even be on this list.

[lefty]

1. Sabonis
2. Jabbar
3. Russell
4. Chamby
5. Wes Unseld
6. Walton
7. D-Rob
8. Dave Cowens
9. Hakeem
10. Ewing
11. Yinka Dare :lol

[monosylab1k]

1. Sabonis
2. Jabbar
3. Russell
4. Chamby
5. Wes Unseld
6. Walton
7. D-Rob
8. Dave Cowens
9. Hakeem
10. Ewing
11. Yinka Dare :lol

hahaha...

12. Eric Montross

[lefty]

hahaha...

12. Eric Montross

Damn, I forgot about that one

[resistanze]

^^ You sure you're not basing your ranking of Hakeem by his Toronto Raptors days?

[mardigan]

Better list, 10 worst centers of all time, good luck beating this.....


1)Dwayne Schintzius
2)Todd Fuller (drafted ahead of Kobe and Nash)
3)Oliver Miller
4)Mengke Bateer
5)Gheorge Muresan (especially because of My Giant, best movie ever)
6)Keith Closs
7)Greg Kite
7)Jim McIlvane
8)Joe Klein
9)Eric Montross
10)Shawn Bradley

Honorable mention..Jack Haley, Brad Lohaus (even though Brad wasnt terrible, just goofy as shit)

[lefty]

^^ You sure you're not basing your ranking of Hakeem by his Toronto Raptors days?
Nope

[lefty]

Better list, 10 worst centers of all time, good luck beating this.....


1)Dwayne Schintzius
2)Todd Fuller (drafted ahead of Kobe and Nash)
3)Oliver Miller
4)Mengke Bateer
5)Gheorge Muresan (especially because of My Giant, best movie ever)
6)Keith Closs
7)Greg Kite
7)Jim McIlvane
8)Joe Klein
9)Eric Montross
10)Shawn Bradley

Honorable mention..Jack Haley, Brad Lohaus (even though Brad wasnt terrible, just goofy as shit)

Good list; but u forgot Sam Bowie drafted ahead of Michael Jordan :lol

BUT Muresan had some great games, but he had lots of physical problems

[monosylab1k]

Better list, 10 worst centers of all time, good luck beating this.....


1)Dwayne Schintzius
2)Todd Fuller (drafted ahead of Kobe and Nash)
3)Oliver Miller
4)Mengke Bateer
5)Gheorge Muresan (especially because of My Giant, best movie ever)
6)Keith Closs
7)Greg Kite
7)Jim McIlvane
8)Joe Klein
9)Eric Montross
10)Shawn Bradley

Honorable mention..Jack Haley, Brad Lohaus (even though Brad wasnt terrible, just goofy as shit)

LOL great list. Actually you could make a top 10 worst centers list and have nothing but Mavs centers on there. Shawn Bradley, Cherokee Parks, Greg Dreiling, Loren Meyer, Chris Anstey, Uwe Blab, etc.

[mardigan]

I didnt include Bowie because he was at least somewhat productive, but he sucked donkey balls

[lefty]

I didnt include Bowie because he was at least somewhat productive, but he sucked donkey balls

But Muresan was good, if it wasn't for the injuries.... he had some great games...

[mardigan]

LOL great list. Actually you could make a top 10 worst centers list and have nothing but Mavs centers on there. Shawn Bradley, Cherokee Parks, Greg Dreiling, Loren Meyer, Chris Anstey, Uwe Blab, etc.

I will leave Parks out of it because he had sweet tats. Spurs have had some bad ones too, Dwayne, Parks, Bill Curley, Purdue.....

[mardigan]

But Muresan was good, if it wasn't for the injuries.... he had some great games...

Yea I just looked up his stats, in 96 he averaged 15 points, 10 rebounds and 2 blocks in 73 games and still had time to star in Billy Crystals best movie ever

[lefty]

Yep, he even had a f 30 points, 14 rebounds and 6 blocks performance ; and he led the league in FG% for 2 seasons .

[lefty]

Oh and also a career high 9 blocks (3 times)

[Bob Lanier]

Shawn Bradley was a rotation player and frequently at least a part-time starter in the NBA for what? 11, 12 years?

He was a joke, but he was by no means one of the worst centers ever to play the game. DJ Mbenga would cut his nuts off to have the career that Shawn Bradley had.

Or the ones Oliver Miller and Gheorghe had, for that matter.

[mardigan]

Shawn Bradley was a rotation player and frequently at least a part-time starter in the NBA for what? 11, 12 years?

He was a joke, but he was by no means one of the worst centers ever to play the game. DJ Mbenga would cut his nuts off to have the career that Shawn Bradley had.

Joe Klein played 15 years but it didnt mean he didnt suck monkey balls. Ill give you that he was a good shot blocker, but as far as talent he was crap

[monosylab1k]

DJ Mbenga would cut his nuts off to have the career that Shawn Bradley had.

He'd cut his nuts off more for an extra six inches of height.

Bradley's ineptitude is multiplied by the fact that he was half a foot taller than anybody he faced, and he was still terrible. Take away his height advantage and Bradley wouldn't have been talented enough to be a backup in the CBA.

[mardigan]

He'd cut his nuts off more for an extra six inches of height.

Bradley's ineptitude is multiplied by the fact that he was half a foot taller than anybody he faced, and he was still terrible. Take away his height advantage and Bradley wouldn't have been talented enough to be a backup in the CBA.

Bang bang!!

[Bob Lanier]

Irrelevant.

There are dozens, hundreds of NBA centers who have never played past their rookie/free agent contracts. I don't care why they didn't play and mediocre guys like Bradley did; the fact remains that he played 20 000 minutes and more than 800 games in the Association and unless you want to establish a much higher cut-off point than I thought, you can't reasonably say he's one of the ten worst centers ever to play in the NBA.

And to be honest, I don't think DJ Mbenga is, either, but he's a hell of a lot closer to that mark than Bradley ever was.

[Agloco]

Better list, 10 worst centers of all time, good luck beating this.....


1)Dwayne Schintzius
2)Todd Fuller (drafted ahead of Kobe and Nash)
3)Oliver Miller
4)Mengke Bateer
5)Gheorge Muresan (especially because of My Giant, best movie ever)
6)Keith Closs
7)Greg Kite
7)Jim McIlvane
8)Joe Klein
9)Eric Montross
10)Shawn Bradley

Honorable mention..Jack Haley, Brad Lohaus (even though Brad wasnt terrible, just goofy as shit)


You forgot Mike Smrek and Greg "Cadillac" Anderson. two of the worst in history IMO.

[mardigan]

Irrelevant.

There are dozens, hundreds of NBA centers who have never played past their rookie/free agent contracts. I don't care why they didn't play and mediocre guys like Bradley did; the fact remains that he played 20 000 minutes and more than 800 games in the Association and unless you want to establish a much higher cut-off point than I thought, you can't reasonably say he's one of the ten worst centers ever to play in the NBA.

And to be honest, I don't think DJ Mbenga is, either, but he's a hell of a lot closer to that mark than Bradley ever was.
Not irrevelant when talking about talent, which Bradley had none of

[ArgSpursFan]

11:Vlade Divac
12:Sabonis

[lefty]

11:Vlade Divac
12:Sabonis
:donkey

[ambchang]

don't know if this has been posted...

Scoop Jackson's reason for not picking Robinson and going with Walton

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=jackson/070307




Sick if you ask me :wtf

Hmmm, I never new Lanier won ROY, DPOY, MVP, lead the league in scoring, rebounding and blocked shots. Nor was I aware that Malone won a championship w/o Dr. J, McAdoo winning anything before the Lakers, or Ewing winning ..... well, anything, championships OR awards.
I never knew Scoop is this stupid, I should by him a textbook on logic.

[mardigan]

11:Vlade Divac
12:Sabonis

Whys everyone keep coming down on Sabonis?

[whottt]

If Sabonis wanted to be ranked higher he shouldn't have ducked the NBA for 5 years.

Sabonis is Bill Walton on steroids. Sabonis was not a great scorer, even before his knees got screwed...he was a great passer, probably the greatest ever, but he played D like a lazier version of Shaq.

[whottt]

don't know if this has been posted...

Scoop Jackson's reason for not picking Robinson and going with Walton

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=jackson/070307




Sick if you ask me :wtf


What a douchebag...he obviously didn't look at the numbers.

Father knew best...and he didn't even have to think about it.

[Capt Bringdown]

don't know if this has been posted...

Scoop Jackson's reason for not picking Robinson and going with Walton

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=jackson/070307

Sick if you ask me :wtf

His stated reason for leaving Robinson off the top 10 is because DROB didn't win a ring before Duncan arrived.
If I'm not mistaken, Jabaar wasn't able to get to the finals on his own as well. Didn't he have help from 2 of the best point guards in NBA history?
Shaq has had help from Kobe and Dwade.
Russell was surrounded by All Stars his entire career.
Chamberlain was on 2 of the greatest championship squads of all time, flanked by the likes of HOFers like Hall Greer, Elgin Baylor and Gail Goodrich.
Hakeem had Clyde for one title.
Moses had Doctor J, as already mentioned.

Of course we all know why this columnist left the Admiral off the list: he's perceived in some very stupid circles as not being black enough.
How could anyone possibly leave D-Rob off a top ten list in favor of over-rated stiffs like Patrick Ewing?
Oh, I forgot, Patrick went to Georgetown, was coached by John Thompson, and played in NY.
F'n jackass.

[mardigan]

If Sabonis wanted to be ranked higher he shouldn't have ducked the NBA for 5 years.

Sabonis is Bill Walton on steroids. Sabonis was not a great scorer, even before his knees got screwed...he was a great passer, probably the greatest ever, but he played D like a lazier version of Shaq.

He didnt skip it, I though he was locked in a Scola contract like situation

[Cry Havoc]

Not irrevelant when talking about talent, which Bradley had none of

And yet he made a pretty solid career out of what he did have, which is size and the ability to block shots. You can't say anyone who was as long-lived in the NBA as Bradley was one of the worst players, or even worst centers. How many teams would kill to have that kind of presence in the middle in these center-starved days, even if he was anemic on the offensive side?

[whottt]

He didnt skip it, I though he was locked in a Scola contract like situation


Not for the entire time...he stayed over there of his own voilition for a number of years...I think it was after he won a 4th or 5th title he said all he left to do was come to the NBA...


At one point he couldn't play over here because he was from the Soviet Union...and the Soviets wouldn't let him. But after it broke up he could have come over here and elected not too.

[Bob Lanier]

If Sabonis wanted to be ranked higher he shouldn't have ducked the NBA for 5 years.

Sabonis is Bill Walton on steroids. Sabonis was not a great scorer, even before his knees got screwed...he was a great passer, probably the greatest ever, but he played D like a lazier version of Shaq.
He also made David Robinson his bitch, so perhaps going after an easier target like Ewing would be in order.

[monosylab1k]

don't know if this has been posted...

Scoop Jackson's reason for not picking Robinson and going with Walton

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=jackson/070307




Sick if you ask me :wtf

Bill Simmons also gave his reasons for abstaining from the voting process in his latest article. He also claims that, in his prime, nobody in history was better than Walton.

[lefty]

If Sabonis wanted to be ranked higher he shouldn't have ducked the NBA for 5 years.

Sabonis is Bill Walton on steroids. Sabonis was not a great scorer, even before his knees got screwed...he was a great passer, probably the greatest ever, but he played D like a lazier version of Shaq.

Well, Sabonis did it all ; scoring, passing, blocking, rebounding, when younger and healthier, the guy could run and dunk like D-Rob !!! combine that with his talents :dizzy :dizzy :dizzy http://youtube.com/watch?v=JLu2SlE85tg

Regarding his situation in Europe, some said it was his contract, some said it was his coach and some said it was political...

[whottt]

He also made David Robinson his bitch, so perhaps going after an easier target like Ewing would be in order.


Getting outscored and outrebounded = making someone his bitch?

[whottt]

Well, Sabonis did it all ; scoring, passing, blocking, rebounding, when younger and healthier, the guy could run and dunk like D-Rob !!!

He could never run like Drob...he was 7'3 300lbs and he when he ran the earth rumbpled...

David Robinson was probably the fastest player in the NBA early in his career.


combine that with his talents :dizzy :dizzy :dizzy http://youtube.com/watch?v=JLu2SlE85tg

Regarding his situation in Europe, some said it was his contract, some said it was his coach and some said it was political...


Try not to use Youtube clips as a substitute for knowledge...

Drob lead the NBA in slam dunks 3 years in a row...you'll be lucky if you can find more than one or two dunks on youtube by him.

[Despot]

don't know if this has been posted...

Scoop Jackson's reason for not picking Robinson and going with Walton

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=jackson/070307




Sick if you ask me :wtf

Noone noticed this from the article:


David Robinson!?!" I think I exasperated back. David Robinson never got to the NBA Finals until Tim Duncan got there and even when he did get that first ring he did it against the Knicks when Patrick wasn't playing.

Shocked he didn't mention the asterisk, as it seems he was just looking for a reason to discount Robinson. I agree with the poster above that mentioned it is moronic to discount David because he had the help of another star. How many other players on that list were able to get a ring without the help of another star? Someone needs to e-mail him and alert him to his stupidity.

(I'm putting one of these smilies only cause my wife wanted me too...) :lmao

[lefty]

He could never run like Drob...he was 7'3 300lbs and he when he ran the earth rumbpled...

David Robinson was probably the fastest player in the NBA early in his career.




Try not to use Youtube clips as a substitute for knowledge...

Drob lead the NBA in slam dunks 3 years in a row...you'll be lucky if you can find more than one or two dunks on youtube by him.

So, apparently u haven't seen the full video....

And don't get me started on knowledge, I lived in Europe and watched games of Euroleague featuring Sabonis ("recent" or reruns of his 80's games) ; he was much lighter back then
Damn, Skinny Sabonis could have taken D-Rob anytime. Well, he did :

Brian Meehan, a columnist for The Oregonian, followed Sabonis' career over the course of decades. Recalling the 1988 Olympics, when Sabonis' Soviet team beat a United States team with the likes of David Robinson, Meehan notes one play when a healthy Sabonis reacted to a teammate's missed shot: Sabonis slashed towards the rim, jumped over Robinson, and slammed the ball home. Meehan is of the opinion that it was the play of Arvydas in the '88 Olympics that influenced Team USA to use professional players in the Olympics, thus the "Dream Teams" of 1992 and 1996. Meehan ranks Sabonis as the 6th best all-time center behind, in no particular order, Hakeem Olajuwon, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Shaquille O'Neal, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

U don't know what u're talking about, so please don't say anything.....

[whottt]

It's a highlight clip...

I can show you one where James White looks like the next Jordan...

[lefty]

It's a highlight clip...



I can show you one where James White looks like the next Jordan...

Mmm...Sabonis was already an established pro basketball star back then, unlike James White

Yes it's a highlight clip ; and that was nothing compared to what he was able to do back then........

Brian Meehan, a columnist for The Oregonian, followed Sabonis' career over the course of decades. Recalling the 1988 Olympics, when Sabonis' Soviet team beat a United States team with the likes of David Robinson, Meehan notes one play when a healthy Sabonis reacted to a teammate's missed shot: Sabonis slashed towards the rim, jumped over Robinson, and slammed the ball home. Meehan is of the opinion that it was the play of Arvydas in the '88 Olympics that influenced Team USA to use professional players in the Olympics, thus the "Dream Teams" of 1992 and 1996. Meehan ranks Sabonis as the 6th best all-time center behind, in no particular order, Hakeem Olajuwon, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Shaquille O'Neal, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

[whottt]

Brian Meehan, a columnist for The Oregonian, followed Sabonis' career over the course of decades. Recalling the 1988 Olympics, when Sabonis' Soviet team beat a United States team with the likes of David Robinson, Meehan notes one play when a healthy Sabonis reacted to a teammate's missed shot: Sabonis slashed towards the rim, jumped over Robinson, and slammed the ball home. Meehan is of the opinion that it was the play of Arvydas in the '88 Olympics that influenced Team USA to use professional players in the Olympics, thus the "Dream Teams" of 1992 and 1996. Meehan ranks Sabonis as the 6th best all-time center behind, in no particular order, Hakeem Olajuwon, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Shaquille O'Neal, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.



He's right...it was Sabonis that caused the Dream Team to use NBA players...since Sabonis and 2/3 rds of Team USSR were playing in pro leagues and scrimmaging against NBA Teams.


Here's the deal...Sabonis got Drob once for a Gold Medal, Sabonis also got outscored and outrebounded in that game, in which team USA was missing two starters...


Drob got Sabonis 3 times for a Gold Medal, including once before the Dream Team Era...he also got him once for a championship.


PWNT. And Drob was just as old and broken down as Sabonis.

Oberto got Duncan too in the Olympics...he also made J O'Neal and Elton Brande look like punks in the WC...how's that turning out now?

[lefty]

Comparing Oberto to Sabas? :donkey :donkey

My point is that when healthy (he put weight because of his many injuries) and skinny, he was as good as any great NBA center ; and he had that outside jumper and astonishing passing game too ; in a word (well, 5): he was the ultimate center. If he could have joined the NBA in his early 20's, it would have been amazing.

[whottt]

Here ya go Lefty...check out this dude...another Lithuanian. People are calling him EuroWilt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNwkeNIOkOo

[lefty]

Here ya go Lefty...check out this dude...another Lithuanian. People are calling him EuroWilt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNwkeNIOkOo

Yeah I know that guy
:lol

So what? Arvydas was for real ; heck, D-Rob and Shaq admired him ; they will never admire Oberto

[whottt]

Sabonis = 1 Olympic Gold Medal playing with some pros including some future NBA players against a college team.

Oberto = 1 Olympic Gold Medal playing with some pros and including some future NBA players against an NBA team.

Therefore...

Oberto>Sabonis

And Tim Duncan admires Oberto...

Since Tim Duncan = Greatest PF of all time

And since Shaq only = 6th greatest C of all time...

Tim Duncan > Shaq

And therefore Tim Duncan admiring Oberto > Anyone else but Wilt admiring Sabonis.

[bobbyjoe]

Oh, now Mavs Fan wants to move on, now that we're talking about how 3 of the greatest centers beat them like red-headed sisters repeatedly in the 90s and into the 21st century. So I take it we should go back to bringing up crude insults involving our relatives or feminine hygiene, or copying some anti-Republican screed someone got off the internet?

I have a good idea for a relevant study: The 10 greatest games played against the Mavs by David, Hakeem, Shaq, and ... Ewing. Anyone have the stats for those?

http://www.eskimo.com/~pbender/playoffs/1988/box4-28

http://www.eskimo.com/~pbender/playoffs/1988/box4-30

http://www.eskimo.com/~pbender/playoffs/1988/box5-3

http://www.eskimo.com/~pbender/playoffs/1988/box5-5

These are boxscores from the Rockets-Mavericks Playoff series in 1988. For the series, Akeem averaged 37.5 ppg and 17 boards a game on 58% FG.

Bear in mind, Hakeem was only good for 3-4 yrs and these stats are from games where Hakeem wasn't anything special, so I can only imagine what he dropped down when he was actually a good player for that 3-4 yr run!

Was Jordan really that good besides the 6 yrs he won titles?! :blah

I mean where are the titles the other yrs?!

[bobbyjoe]

I like Tim Legler's list the best.

[slayermin]

If Russell came up today, you'd recognize him as Dennis Rodman without all the nonsense. Now Rodman was great in his way, but would you take him ahead of Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Shaq, Dave, etc.?

Me neither.

And I would pick the following players before I picked Russell.

Magic
MJ
TD
Bird
Oscar

Don't get me wrong, Bill Russell is the greatest defensive force to ever play in the NBA. But if he was the focal point of your offense, you would be lucky to score 70 points.


Bob Pettit led the NBA in desire in 1958, as we all know, so it's no wonder the Hawks defeated the Celtics and Russell's off-year in desire that season.

Nice. A Bob Pettit reference.

In regards to George Mikan, he was the best player for a six year span. His last seasons came right before the Celtic dominance. I get the league wasn't as integrated as it is now but the league had talented players.

I think you would have to think of Mikan in terms of choosing between TD and Dwight Howard. Though Howard will probably have an incredible career, you wouldn't pick him over TD. And it would be tough not to pick a Patrick Ewing or a Nate Thurmond over Mikan to start your franchise. But something has to be said about a player that wins. And Mikan was a winner.

As far as the Shaq/Admiral argument, I hate Shaq. I hated Shaq when he was in Orlando when the sarge would round up the Shaq posse and leave the game early when they didn't agree with the refs. I hated Shaq when he made up stories about how the Admiral snubbed him in highschool. I hated Shaq when he was playing out his bitch feud with Kobe in the press. I hated his lame ass movies except for Blue Chips. I hated his "What's Up Doc?" video. And I still can't stand him.

But I think he is the third best center of all-time because when he was motivated (in his prime), he was unstoppable. If the Admiral played better with his back to the basket, Admiral wins in a mile. But because Shaq physically dominated in the low post like no other since Wilt, he edges Olajuwon and Admiral, imo.

[Obstructed_View]

Fuck this shit. Whottt, I'm changing my vote. Some of these motherfuckers love to repeat that "Hakeem dominated Robinson" line as an argument against him. Robinson was 32-16 against Olajuwon head to head. Robinson was 30-7 against Ewing.

[SRJ]

In regards to George Mikan, he was the best player for a six year span. His last seasons came right before the Celtic dominance. I get the league wasn't as integrated as it is now but the league had talented players.

I think you would have to think of Mikan in terms of choosing between TD and Dwight Howard. Though Howard will probably have an incredible career, you wouldn't pick him over TD. And it would be tough not to pick a Patrick Ewing or a Nate Thurmond over Mikan to start your franchise. But something has to be said about a player that wins. And Mikan was a winner.

As far as the Shaq/Admiral argument, I hate Shaq. I hated Shaq when he was in Orlando when the sarge would round up the Shaq posse and leave the game early when they didn't agree with the refs. I hated Shaq when he made up stories about how the Admiral snubbed him in highschool. I hated Shaq when he was playing out his bitch feud with Kobe in the press. I hated his lame ass movies except for Blue Chips. I hated his "What's Up Doc?" video. And I still can't stand him.

But I think he is the third best center of all-time because when he was motivated (in his prime), he was unstoppable. If the Admiral played better with his back to the basket, Admiral wins in a mile. But because Shaq physically dominated in the low post like no other since Wilt, he edges Olajuwon and Admiral, imo.

I couldn't put Mikan in my top ten, and for me it's hard to locate a proper place for him or other late 40's/early 50's stars - Andy Philip, Dolph Schayes, Slater Martin, Neil Johnston, Dick McGuire, Jim Pollard to name a handful - because the game was vastly different then. They didn't keep official rebounding stats. The lane was six feet wide. There was no shot clock for years. Perimeter shooting looked absolutely nothing like it does now, and if FG% is any kind of reliable indicator, the two-hand set shot wasn't especially effective.

From what little Mikan footage I've seen, athletically he looks a little like Danny Manning plus some nifty little post moves, minus a jump shot. (Although big men were probably waived if they tried to shoot jumpers back in those days)

I know it's not fair to Mikan and a few others, but I do tend to leave stars from his era out of my lists - the reason being I just don't know enough. The records are incomplete, the game was almost totally different, and video footage from that time is awful hard to come by. Relative to his own era Mikan was as dominant as anyone, but I really doubt he was that good. If Mikan was 22 years old today, would he even get drafted? I don't know.

As for Shaq, I had him fourth after Wilt, Kareem, and Hakeem, just ahead of Dave. Shaq has had sidekicks named Kobe and Wade (and Penny before he got hurt) helping him along, while Olajuwon had an aging (but still effective) Drexler and THE! Otis Thorpe playing second fiddle. That's why I have Hakeem third and Shaq fourth.

[slayermin]

They didn't keep official rebounding stats. The lane was six feet wide. There was no shot clock for years. Perimeter shooting looked absolutely nothing like it does now, and if FG% is any kind of reliable indicator, the two-hand set shot wasn't especially effective.

I have to agree with the stats, especially the FG Pct. But he shot free throws well so I wonder how accurate the FG Percentages were back then.

Anyway, I did find this cool article about Mikan.

Mikan Article (http://espn.go.com/classic/obit/s/2005/0602/2074322.html)

[slayermin]

As for Shaq, I had him fourth after Wilt, Kareem, and Hakeem, just ahead of Dave. Shaq has had sidekicks named Kobe and Wade (and Penny before he got hurt) helping him along, while Olajuwon had an aging (but still effective) Drexler and THE! Otis Thorpe playing second fiddle. That's why I have Hakeem third and Shaq fourth.

I forgot to respond to this part. I think it's easy to overlook the shooters Hakeem had on his team. They had arguably the greatest collection of clutch shooters ever assembled. Offensively, Olajuwon was smoother and more imaginitive down low but defenses had more problems with Shaq.

[mabber]

He could never run like Drob...he was 7'3 300lbs and he when he ran the earth rumbpled...

David Robinson was probably the fastest player in the NBA early in his career.






:lol

[lefty]

Sabonis = 1 Olympic Gold Medal playing with some pros including some future NBA players against a college team.

Oberto = 1 Olympic Gold Medal playing with some pros and including some future NBA players against an NBA team.

Therefore...

Oberto>Sabonis

And Tim Duncan admires Oberto...

Since Tim Duncan = Greatest PF of all time

And since Shaq only = 6th greatest C of all time...

Tim Duncan > Shaq

And therefore Tim Duncan admiring Oberto > Anyone else but Wilt admiring Sabonis.
:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

[Ockham]

I know I missed the Scoop Jackson criticism earlier, but I just read his article and I can't resist: He had both Patrick Ewing and Bob McAdoo ranked ahead of Robinson. That's unconscionable! And look at his reason for excluding Robinson:

"David Robinson never got to the NBA Finals until Tim Duncan got there and even when he did get that first ring he did it against the Knicks when Patrick wasn't playing."

I guess Scoop would be more impressed if Robinson won with a second-rate cast like McAdoo did, with hacks like Magic Johnson, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, and James Worthy, all in their primes.

Mercy, how has Scoop Jackson's head not exploded from all the cognitive dissonance?

[monosylab1k]

he did it against the Knicks when Patrick wasn't playing

One could argue that the Spurs would have beaten the Knicks with alot more ease if Ewing WAS playing. The guy had a major history of disappearing in big games. There's even the "Ewing Theory" named after him because his team always seemed to do alot better without him.

[ambchang]

One could argue that the Spurs would have beaten the Knicks with alot more ease if Ewing WAS playing. The guy had a major history of disappearing in big games. There's even the "Ewing Theory" named after him because his team always seemed to do alot better without him.
Not so much for disappearing, but so much more for stagnating the offense when he was there. Ewing's slow on offense.

[mardigan]

One could argue that the Spurs would have beaten the Knicks with alot more ease if Ewing WAS playing. The guy had a major history of disappearing in big games. There's even the "Ewing Theory" named after him because his team always seemed to do alot better without him.

Larry Johnson didnt play in that series either, it was basically Allan Houston and Sprewell vs. the Spurs, Im amazed they actually did as well as they did

[lefty]

Not so much for disappearing, but so much more for stagnating the offense when he was there. Ewing's slow on offense.

True ; and the Knicks got better without him during their 1999 Finals run, because they could run better

[lefty]

Fuck this shit. Whottt, I'm changing my vote. Some of these motherfuckers love to repeat that "Hakeem dominated Robinson" line as an argument against him. Robinson was 32-16 against Olajuwon head to head. Robinson was 30-7 against Ewing.

It's not a one-on-one game ; others factors count too : teamamtes, coaches, etc... I remember a game where Robinson destroyed Ewing ; still, the Knicks won

[SRJ]

Larry Johnson didnt play in that series either, it was basically Allan Houston and Sprewell vs. the Spurs, Im amazed they actually did as well as they did

If you're referring to the 1999 NBA Finals, you're incorrect. Johnson played in all five games and here's his line:

37 MPG
28% FG%
61.5% FT%
7.6 PPG
4.8 RPG
1.4 APG
1.2 SPG
0.2 BPG
1.6 TOPG

[mardigan]

If you're referring to the 1999 NBA Finals, you're incorrect. Johnson played in all five games and here's his line:

37 MPG
28% FG%
61.5% FT%
7.6 PPG
4.8 RPG
1.4 APG
1.2 SPG
0.2 BPG
1.6 TOPG

Hmm, for some reason I seemed to remember him being hurt, my fault

[monosylab1k]

Hmm, for some reason I seemed to remember him being hurt, my fault

Well that year was his last, if I remember correctly. And his back problems were so bad at that point that he was a complete shell of his former self.

[SRJ]

Well that year was his last, if I remember correctly. And his back problems were so bad at that point that he was a complete shell of his former self.

Johnson played two more seasons, but yeah, you are right about his back issues. He was pretty ineffective after that, and probably wouldn't have gotten so much playing time had he not established himself the way he had.

[mardigan]

He was she shit though when he was Grandmama, someone should post a sweet pic of that

[ggoose25]

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o74/ggoose25/2001-10-10-grandmama-inside.jpg

[mardigan]

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o74/ggoose25/2001-10-10-grandmama-inside.jpg

Well done sir, well done

[bobbyjoe]

It's not a one-on-one game ; others factors count too : teamamtes, coaches, etc... I remember a game where Robinson destroyed Ewing ; still, the Knicks won

Also, the Spurs had a run of 12 straight wins against Houston when Duncan arrived. At this point it was 35 yr old Dave vs. 38 yr old Hakeem.

Putting stock in those games when both Dave and Hakeem were winding down but the Spurs dominated the series because Houston was rebuilding and SA had a young superstar in Duncan is nuts. Same with New York vs. SA. I dont recall DRob dominating Ewing in the individual matchups, though he may have outplayed him.

If you go back and look at basketball reference.com and see the boxscores from the HOU/SA games when Dave and Hakeem were younger, Hakeem had the individual edge more often than not.

If you were to just go with W-L, then Duncan <<Malone, because Malone was 2-0 against him lifetime in the playoffs.

[ambchang]

Also, the Spurs had a run of 12 straight wins against Houston when Duncan arrived. At this point it was 35 yr old Dave vs. 38 yr old Hakeem.

Putting stock in those games when both Dave and Hakeem were winding down but the Spurs dominated the series because Houston was rebuilding and SA had a young superstar in Duncan is nuts. Same with New York vs. SA. I dont recall DRob dominating Ewing in the individual matchups, though he may have outplayed him.

If you go back and look at basketball reference.com and see the boxscores from the HOU/SA games when Dave and Hakeem were younger, Hakeem had the individual edge more often than not.

If you were to just go with W-L, then Duncan <<Malone, because Malone was 2-0 against him lifetime in the playoffs.
Hakeem played 12 games against the Spurs for the Rockets after Duncan arrived? Didn't he go to Toronto in like 98 or 99?

[bobbyjoe]

Hakeem played 12 games against the Spurs for the Rockets after Duncan arrived? Didn't he go to Toronto in like 98 or 99?

No, he went to Toronto in 2002.

From 98-05 the Spurs owned the Rockets, before the teams split this year. DRob had virtually nothing to do with this, so to use the teams W-L record in the context of a Hakeem-Drob discussion without considering the obvious is silly.

If you want to look at the W-L records of the Spurs-Rockets head to head from the time Robinson entered the league to the tiem Duncan arrived, you'd see that they played each other pretty evenly, the main difference being that Houston got the big wins in the playoff series.

I think the Spurs did have a slight edge in reg season in that time but nothing like 30-12. 30-12 is severely fattened up by the games from 98,99,00, and 01.

As far as the individual #'s in the head to head's, Hakeem had an edge, albeit not domination in the reg season. Postseason everyone knows. It's too bad the team's only got to only play once considering how good both were in that era.

[lefty]

No, he went to Toronto in 2002.

From 98-05 the Spurs owned the Rockets, before the teams split this year. DRob had virtually nothing to do with this, so to use the teams W-L record in the context of a Hakeem-Drob discussion without considering the obvious is silly.

If you want to look at the W-L records of the Spurs-Rockets head to head from the time Robinson entered the league to the tiem Duncan arrived, you'd see that they played each other pretty evenly, the main difference being that Houston got the big wins in the playoff series.

I think the Spurs did have a slight edge in reg season in that time but nothing like 30-12. 30-12 is severely fattened up by the games from 98,99,00, and 01.

As far as the individual #'s in the head to head's, Hakeem had an edge, albeit not domination in the reg season. Postseason everyone knows. It's too bad the team's only got to only play once considering how good both were in that era.

Nope, 2001

[bobbyjoe]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/olajuha01.html

2002.

[ambchang]

So what is the record of DRob vs. Hakeem head to head from 1989 to 1996 (DRob was injured in 97)?

[Phenomanul]

Larry Johnson didnt play in that series either, it was basically Allan Houston and Sprewell vs. the Spurs, Im amazed they actually did as well as they did


And a pretty good center in Marcus Camby.

[TDMVPDPOY]

15 pages good read!!

[Phenomanul]

People outside of San Antonio (and newer Spurs fans) don't appreciate how great a player David Robinson really was (especially before his back injury).

Talent-wise David ran circles around Shaq. Until his back went out (which fortunately for Spurs fans coincided with the arrival of Tim Duncan).

As far as the original list is concerned however, why does everyone use Olojuwon's perceived ownage of Robinson in the '95 playoffs as a reason to place him above Robinson but then turn around and discredit his sweeping of Shaq in the finals that very year to place him below? Truly inconsistent logic.

Before the question gets asked... the ownage is percieved because overall Hakeem's team was superior to Robinson's weak supporting cast. It shouldn't surprise anyone that the Rockets won even if the Spurs record that year was better. The Rockets had a better team that year hands down. The respective careers of its clutch shooters would later prove that outcome as the rule and not the exception.

Cassell, Elie, Horry, K. Smith were way clutcher than any other shooter on the Spurs squad. So much in fact that Rodman detrimentally went out of character in that series and decided to become a 3pt shooter himself..... an act that hurt his team far more than he realized. If memory serves correct it was Elie, Horry and Cassell who shot the daggers in the series - not Olojuwon - who rarely faced a double team due to the fact that every time he did - his shooters made the Spurs pay. Robinson, on the other hand, was double and triple-teamed the entire series. The Rockets basically dared the Spurs shooters to beat them, and the Spurs failed miserably. Using said series to gauge Robinson's and Olojuwon's placement on such a list, therefore would be skewed on several fronts.

[lefty]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/olajuha01.html

2002.

2001
http://www.nba.com/history/players/olajuwon_stats.html

00-01 HOU 58 55 26.6 .498 .000 .621 2.10 5.30 7.40 1.2 1.21 1.52 1.40 2.40 11.9
01-02 TOR 61 37 22.6 .464 .000 .560 1.60 4.40 6.00 1.1 1.21 1.48 1.61 2.40 7.1

[bobbyjoe]

People outside of San Antonio (and newer Spurs fans) don't appreciate how great a player David Robinson really was (especially before his back injury).

Talent-wise David ran circles around Shaq. Until his back went out (which fortunately for Spurs fans coincided with the arrival of Tim Duncan).

As far as the original list is concerned however, why does everyone use Olojuwon's perceived ownage of Robinson in the '95 playoffs as a reason to place him above Robinson but then turn around and discredit his sweeping of Shaq in the finals that very year to place him below? Truly inconsistent logic.

Before the question gets asked... the ownage is percieved because overall Hakeem's team was superior to Robinson's weak supporting cast. It shouldn't surprise anyone that the Rockets won even if the Spurs record that year was better. The Rockets had a better team that year hands down. The respective careers of its clutch shooters would later prove that outcome as the rule and not the exception.

Cassell, Elie, Horry, K. Smith were way clutcher than any other shooter on the Spurs squad. So much in fact that Rodman detrimentally went out of character in that series and decided to become a 3pt shooter himself..... an act that hurt his team far more than he realized. If memory serves correct it was Elie, Horry and Cassell who shot the daggers in the series - not Olojuwon - who rarely faced a double team due to the fact that every time he did - his shooters made the Spurs pay. Robinson, on the other hand, was double and triple-teamed the entire series. The Rockets basically dared the Spurs shooters to beat them, and the Spurs failed miserably. Using said series to gauge Robinson's and Olojuwon's placement on such a list, therefore would be skewed on several fronts.

Because O'Neal and Olajuwon played a much closer fight. Hakeem did outplay Shaq but didnt dominate him to anywhere near the degree he did Robinson. Also O'Neal was a 3rd yr player in 95 whereas DRob and Hakeem both met right in their peak seasons in 1995, so their matchup was much more defining. 2 player's at their absolute peaks battling for a chance to go to the NBA Finals.

O'Neal also ended up playing at a level equal to if not higher than Hakeem from 00-02. This is why you cant only use the 95 Rocks-Magic series in rating them. For DRob, he clearly never played at the level of Hakeem 93-95 and O'Neal 00--02 which is why not one of the 20 ESPN analysts rated DRob over these 2. He was clearly a cut below.

The reason guys like Horry and Elie and Cassell got wide open 3's on Houston's miid 90's teams was Hakeem. They did not have a creator on that team like a Nash, Kobe, or D Wade. It was all dump it to Hakeem, let teams collapse the middle, and then kickouts for open spot up J's.

Hakeem averaged 5.5 assists a game during that 95 WCF series with SA so the "he wasnt doubled" argument is pure BS. That's more than double his career average in assists. It's also to Hakeem's credit that he developed a shot like a quick turn to the baseline and launch a fadeaway move which was effective even against double teams. DRob had no such move.

He was just a much better playoff performer than David Robinson, no question about it. In the ployoffs, DRob was like a Garnett. Versatile, great player but no go to moves in crunch time.

BTW, per basketball reference.com, the Spurs record against the Rockets from 89-96 was 19-15 in the regular season and 2-4 in the postseason so 21-19 overall. They have the boxscores from everyone of those games and you can see that Hakeem usually got the better of the individual matchups...

[Phenomanul]

Because O'Neal and Olajuwon played a much closer fight. Hakeem did outplay Shaq but didnt dominate him to anywhere near the degree he did Robinson. Also O'Neal was a 3rd yr player in 95 whereas DRob and Hakeem both met right in their peak seasons in 1995, so their matchup was much more defining. 2 player's at their absolute peaks battling for a chance to go to the NBA Finals.

O'Neal also ended up playing at a level equal to if not higher than Hakeem from 00-02. This is why you cant only use the 95 Rocks-Magic series in rating them. For DRob, he clearly never played at the level of Hakeem 93-95 and O'Neal 00--02 which is why not one of the 20 ESPN analysts rated DRob over these 2. He was clearly a cut below.

The reason guys like Horry and Elie and Cassell got wide open 3's on Houston's miid 90's teams was Hakeem. They did not have a creator on that team like a Nash, Kobe, or D Wade. It was all dump it to Hakeem, let teams collapse the middle, and then kickouts for open spot up J's.

Hakeem averaged 5.5 assists a game during that 95 WCF series with SA so the "he wasnt doubled" argument is pure BS. That's more than double his career average in assists. It's also to Hakeem's credit that he developed a shot like a quick turn to the baseline and launch a fadeaway move which was effective even against double teams. DRob had no such move.

He was just a much better playoff performer than David Robinson, no question about it. In the ployoffs, DRob was like a Garnett. Versatile, great player but no go to moves in crunch time.

BTW, per basketball reference.com, the Spurs record against the Rockets from 89-96 was 19-15 in the regular season and 2-4 in the postseason so 21-19 overall. They have the boxscores from everyone of those games and you can see that Hakeem usually got the better of the individual matchups...

It's not "pure BS" as you claim... did you even see the series??? Unfortunately, for me I have the entire series recorded (sadistic I know) and have seen each game at least 3 times...

If a team sends a double-team your way that is very different from being double or triple teamed on an entire possesion like David was. Before he got the ball, while he made his move to the basket, or before he passed the ball out - Robinson saw double coverage continously. David was primarily guarded by Horry and either Kenny or Elie would slide over to guard him; Olojuwon guarded the paint effectively and provided weak side help. That will shutdown anybody.

Robinson, on the other hand, was forced into guarding Olojuwon straight-up most of the series. Every time Rodman helped - Rodman's man would drain a jumper. Every time Del Negro helped - his man would drain a jumper. Every time Cummings helped - his man would drain a jumper. Every time AJ helped - his man would drain another. You get the point.

Besides you seem to be making the argument for me. "Horry and Elie and Cassell" made their shots. The Spurs' shooters didn't. It has nothing to do with Olojuwon's open looks being much better than those created by Robinson's passing skills because the Spurs were getting the same sort of looks (the fact that you assume those shots have everything to do with the post passer negates the significance of the fact that the shooter still has to hit the shot). In fact, by the 3Q of Game 1 the Rockets sagged off of the Spurs shooters in hope that they would continue with their barrage of bricks. So much so, that crazy Rodman thought he was the 'Rifleman'.

Rodman shot more threes in that series than he did during the entire season. I had my quota of "what the hell do you think you're doing" moments yelling at the TV - specifically at Rodman. Who seemed much crazier than ever (a weird combination of undiscipline, and detached disinterest).

Also, you like many others before you have failed to identify Robinson's "go-to" move. It was so effective; most didn't realize what it was. It was his ability to get to the foul line. Robinson was so much faster and much more athletically gifted than his peers that he could get there at will. The problem in the Rockets series was that he was forced away from the ball much of the series. This again, because he was double or triple teamed much farther from the basket than he was used to... and naturally from that distance his "go-to" move was inherently less effective.

But feel free to describe Shaq's "go-to" move.... one which doesn't involve an offensive foul of some kind (whether it's called or not). You basically have regurgitated everything the mass media has told you to think on the matter - because Shaq has and continues to be a 'media-darling'.

Say what you want about Robinson... but Shaq would never have led that team anywhere as far as Robinson took it.

[bobbyjoe]

It's not "pure BS" as you claim... did you even see the series??? Unfortunately, for me I have the entire series recorded (sadistic I know) and have seen each game at least 3 times...

If a team sends a double-team your way that is very different from being double or triple teamed on an entire possesion like David was. Before he got the ball, while he made his move to the basket, or before he passed the ball out - Robinson saw double coverage continously. David was primarily guarded by Horry and either Kenny or Elie would slide over to guard him; Olojuwon guarded the paint effectively and provided weak side help. That will shutdown anybody.

Robinson, on the other hand, was forced into guarding Olojuwon straight-up most of the series. Every time Rodman helped - Rodman's man would drain a jumper. Every time Del Negro helped - his man would drain a jumper. Every time Cummings helped - his man would drain a jumper. Every time AJ helped - his man would drain another. You get the point.

Besides you seem to be making the argument for me. "Horry and Elie and Cassell" made their shots. The Spurs' shooters didn't. It has nothing to do with Olojuwon's open looks being much better than those created by Robinson's passing skills because the Spurs were getting the same sort of looks (the fact that you assume those shots have everything to do with the post passer negates the significance of the fact that the shooter still has to hit the shot). In fact, by the 3Q of Game 1 the Rockets sagged off of the Spurs shooters in hope that they would continue with their barrage of bricks. So much so, that crazy Rodman thought he was the 'Rifleman'.

Rodman shot more threes in that series than he did during the entire season. I had my quota of "what the hell do you think you're doing" moments yelling at the TV - specifically at Rodman. Who seemed much crazier than ever (a weird combination of undiscipline, and detached disinterest).

Also, you like many others before you have failed to identify Robinson's "go-to" move. It was so effective; most didn't realize what it was. It was his ability to get to the foul line. Robinson was so much faster and much more athletically gifted than his peers that he could get there at will. The problem in the Rockets series was that he was forced away from the ball much of the series. This again, because he was double or triple teamed much farther from the basket than he was used to... and naturally from that distance his "go-to" move was inherently less effective.

But feel free to describe Shaq's "go-to" move.... one which doesn't involve an offensive foul of some kind (whether it's called or not). You basically have regurgitated everything the mass media has told you to think on the matter - because Shaq has and continues to be a 'media-darling'.

Say what you want about Robinson... but Shaq would never have led that team anywhere as far as Robinson took it.

You did not watch the series if you think Horry was the primary defender on David Robinson. That is flat out not true. The Rockets defended DRob with Hakeem and when Hakeem went out they put Charles Jones on him.

Horry was on Rodman or Elliott all series long. Did Houston double team David? Yes. But the Spurs doubled Hakeem as well. Hence the doubling of his career assist average and all the wide open 3's for Horry, Cassell, Elie, etc. The difference was that Hakeem torched DRob with upfakes and consistently got David to go flying. Then he got easy layups or kicked out to open shooters when the Spurs had to help.

In that series, the supporting casts at worst netted themselves out. It was Olajuwon's domination of Robinson which was the clear difference in the series.

Robinson was outscored by 12 ppg by Hakeem and for the series the Rockets only outscored SA by 1.7 ppg.

So all Spurs but Robinson outscored all Rockets but Hakeem by over 10 points a game. Avery Johnson averaged something like 20 and 10 that series and destroyed Kenny Smith of Houston.

If not for the Spurs supporting cast' domination of Houston, that series was a sweep. What Hakeem did to David in that series was just wrong. It was punishment.

As for a go to move, you just proved my point by saying Robinson's go-to move was a FT.

A Free Throw is not a go to move.

Kareem's skyhook, Hakeem's baseline turnaround, DUncan's bankshot, O'Neal's power to the basket move, McHale's up and under, those are go to moves. Moves that when the game is close late and the defense is tight and the refs are swallowing their whistles these guys can consistently get that shot off and you can't defend it, just hope it doesnt go in.

Robinson NEVER developed a move like this. Not a jumphook. Not a turnaround. He had an awkward post game.

If you think he's better than O'Neal, that's fine, not one person outside of SA, Texas would agree, not one. Do you think he's better than Michael Jordan and Larry Bird too? You might as well throw those in while you're at it.

DRob's 94-95 cast is better than many that Shaq O'Neal won with. He had a HOF player in Rodman and a fellow all star with Elliott. Vinny Del Negro and Chuck Person were quality outside shooters and AJ was an underrated PG. Shaq 00-02 wins 70 games and a title with this group.

Shaq and Rodman on the same team wouldnt be fair. WIth Shaq's power game, Rodman would make a killing snaring offensive boards as the D converged on him.

[bobbyjoe]

If you're going to call David Robinson the Greatest Center Ever, you may as well call him the Greatest Player Ever, because both are equally as utterly ludicrous.

[Purple & Gold]

David Robinson was a damn good player, but not nearly as good as you guys make him out to be. No way he's even a top 5 center.

[whottt]

Hey Bobbyjoe...

Drob averaged about 16 FT per game in that series VS about 8 for Hakeem...and those were just the fouls they called. And if you go back and look at their head to head matchups you will find one other common denominator...Hakeem having an assload of fouls in each game.

All you are proving to me is that Tomjonavich must have been a shitty coach, which I would find ironic since Pop basically modeled the early Duncan era Spurs after them...and the next time I see Duncan being the primary defender on dominant bigman in a playoff series will be the first.

Hakeem was doubled, but not as much as Drob was...and if you watch, Robinson does most of his scoring damage against Hakeem, not against the doubles.

Fact.


Guess...what Hakeem wasn't that much of a better C than Drob, and that one playoff series with his defending champion veteran tested team + Clyde Drexler in tow...is the only thing you have to hang your fucking hat on.

Period.


Deal with it.


PS: That's more than the Shaq fans have to hang their hats on though...they hang their hats on Drob kicking Shaq's ass time and time again up until he was a cripple, then they claim bode.

I love watching LakerFan piss on Kobe though....I guess they think Vinny>Kobe too..

Don't ya Lakerfan?

I am not directing that at bobbyjoe of course, because if he's a LakerFan I'm David Robinson...he's got 87 posts and everyone of them is doing the same thing...Hakeem Olajuwon.

[Phenomanul]

DRob's 94-95 cast is better than many that Shaq O'Neal won with.

He had a HOF player in Rodman and a fellow all star with Elliott. Vinny Del Negro and Chuck Person were quality outside shooters and AJ was an underrated PG.

You've lost all credibility whatsoever on the subject. Del Negro?

Go ahead.... look up his numbers.


Shaq 00-02 wins 70 games and a title with this group.

Now I know you must be smokin' some of that green stuff....

Penny, Kobe, and Wade are way better team-mates than any DRob ever had before Timmy's arrival. You must be delusional to compare All-NBA 1st Teamers with the likes of Elliott, Del Negro, Person, or Cummings.

And you keep ignoring the clutchness factor. The Lakers enjoyed having the likes of Horry, Fisher, in their clutch prime and still rather productive shooters like Shaw, Harper, and Rice. Those guys were series closers. They were a 'go-to' move in and of themselves. David never (Repeat NEVER) enjoyed the company of playing with such clutch shooters... Again not 'till Duncan attracted players like Kerr, Elie and Daren Jackson.



Shaq and Rodman on the same team wouldnt be fair. WIth Shaq's power game, Rodman would make a killing snaring offensive boards as the D converged on him.


You act as if Rodman gave a crap about that series. He played as if he were on Houston's payroll not San Antonio's.

You exaggerate my stance by bringing players like Jordan or Bird into the mix. 1) They're not centers. 2) Ergo, they're not comparable and 3) Your facetiousness detracts from the argument. It's like trying to compare Yao Ming with Chris Paul :huh

[whottt]

I'd take Brent Barry, even now, over Vinny at his peak. Better passer, better athlete, better shooter. Better defender too.

[slayermin]

I'd take Brent Barry, even now, over Vinny at his peak. Better passer, better athlete, better shooter. Better defender too.

We probably win the title in '95, '02, and '04 with Barry. I know. I'm reaching.

[baseline bum]

I don't deny that Olajuwon just completely outplayed David in that series, but you cannot count Rodman as much of a plus for the Spurs then. He whined, got suspended a game by the team, he refused to play any kind of transition defense, and he jacked up horrible three point shots over and over. The guy jacked up three threes in the first quarter of game 2, which got his ass benched for the whole second half. Rodman did not give a shit. And BTW, you did have Shaq and Rodman together. He didn't give a shit in LA either, and got cut after like 12 games because he pulled the same act he did in SA.

The whole world took notice of how worthless Rodman was and how detrimental his act was to the Spurs, and he was very close to exiting the NBA at the time. Only the Bulls showed any interest in him whatsoever. The fact that all the Spurs could get for him was Will Perdue (note that this is in the days before the luxury tax basically imposed the hard cap that makes teams do ridiculous trades now) tells you what the rest of the NBA thought of Rodman. The only reason he ever made it three more years was he had two of the strongest personalities in league history keeping him in check, and as soon as he left Phil Jackson and Michael Jordan, he was back to being good old San Antonio Rodman, which brought him two quick cuts from LA and Dallas, and an exit from the league.

[slayermin]

It didn't help when all those damn Rocket fans filled the dome for game five. Damn, that brings back some bad memories.

[bobbyjoe]

I don't deny that Olajuwon just completely outplayed David in that series, but you cannot count Rodman as much of a plus for the Spurs then. He whined, got suspended a game by the team, he refused to play any kind of transition defense, and he jacked up horrible three point shots over and over. The guy jacked up three threes in the first quarter of game 2, which got his ass benched for the whole second half. Rodman did not give a shit. And BTW, you did have Shaq and Rodman together. He didn't give a shit in LA either, and got cut after like 12 games because he pulled the same act he did in SA.

The whole world took notice of how worthless Rodman was and how detrimental his act was to the Spurs, and he was very close to exiting the NBA at the time. Only the Bulls showed any interest in him whatsoever. The fact that all the Spurs could get for him was Will Perdue (note that this is in the days before the luxury tax basically imposed the hard cap that makes teams do ridiculous trades now) tells you what the rest of the NBA thought of Rodman. The only reason he ever made it three more years was he had two of the strongest personalities in league history keeping him in check, and as soon as he left Phil Jackson and Michael Jordan, he was back to being good old San Antonio Rodman, which brought him two quick cuts from LA and Dallas, and an exit from the league.

Rodman was washed up by the time he came to the Lakers. He was old by the time the Bulls 2nd 3peat was over and the stints with Dallas/LA would be like if Pippen tried to come back now.

Charles Barkley was known to jack up low % 3 pointers too, but that doesnt mean he wasnt an asset.

I dont care how crazy he is, guys like Rodman who are such great rebounders and defenders are assets.

Look at the job Rodman did on the Bulls when he frustrated Karl Malone, Shaq in 96, and Alonzo Mourning in the playoffs. He was like a Bruce Bowen, getting in people's head's with borderline dirty play.

No way do the Bulls from 96-98 win 3 titles without what Rodman brought them. The Spurs didnt have the leadership from DRob or Bob Hill like he received from MJ and Phil Jackson in Chicago and that was the main difference as far as Rodman going off the edge less in CHI than he did in SA.

If Shaq had a younger Rodman like DRob did, the team would just bludgeon you in the paint with Rodman cleaning up the mess when Shaq didnt power the ball into the basket.

If you look at Shaq's supporting casts in LA, besides Kobe, the team didnt have much. Horry was strictly a 3 point shooter. DFish and Fox weren't strong players and Shaw was old and slow. Ho Grant was well past his prime and ineffective.

I think Robinson's 95 supporting cast with Elliott, Rodman, AJ, Person at least equals a couple of the casts from Shaq's LA years.

If anyone really thinks that any NBA GM would think twice about a 94-95 DRob vs. a 00-02 Shaq, they're just in denial.

Shaq is arguably the greatest Center EVER. DRob is arguably top 7 or 8. No one puts DRob in the top 5.

[bobbyjoe]

You've lost all credibility whatsoever on the subject. Del Negro?

Go ahead.... look up his numbers.


Now I know you must be smokin' some of that green stuff....

Penny, Kobe, and Wade are way better team-mates than any DRob ever had before Timmy's arrival. You must be delusional to compare All-NBA 1st Teamers with the likes of Elliott, Del Negro, Person, or Cummings.

And you keep ignoring the clutchness factor. The Lakers enjoyed having the likes of Horry, Fisher, in their clutch prime and still rather productive shooters like Shaw, Harper, and Rice. Those guys were series closers. They were a 'go-to' move in and of themselves. David never (Repeat NEVER) enjoyed the company of playing with such clutch shooters... Again not 'till Duncan attracted players like Kerr, Elie and Daren Jackson.



You act as if Rodman gave a crap about that series. He played as if he were on Houston's payroll not San Antonio's.

You exaggerate my stance by bringing players like Jordan or Bird into the mix. 1) They're not centers. 2) Ergo, they're not comparable and 3) Your facetiousness detracts from the argument. It's like trying to compare Yao Ming with Chris Paul :huh

So Elliott (Mem Day Miracle) wasnt clutch?

How about DRob? DRob was clutch? Cmon now.

[whottt]

Rodman was washed up by the time he came to the Lakers. He was old by the time the Bulls 2nd 3peat was over and the stints with Dallas/LA would be like if Pippen tried to come back now.

Charles Barkley was known to jack up low % 3 pointers too, but that doesnt mean he wasnt an asset.

I dont care how crazy he is, guys like Rodman who are such great rebounders and defenders are assets.

Look at the job Rodman did on the Bulls when he frustrated Karl Malone, Shaq in 96, and Alonzo Mourning in the playoffs. He was like a Bruce Bowen, getting in people's head's with borderline dirty play.

No way do the Bulls from 96-98 win 3 titles without what Rodman brought them. The Spurs didnt have the leadership from DRob or Bob Hill like he received from MJ and Phil Jackson in Chicago and that was the main difference as far as Rodman going off the edge less in CHI than he did in SA.

If Shaq had a younger Rodman like DRob did, the team would just bludgeon you in the paint with Rodman cleaning up the mess when Shaq didnt power the ball into the basket.


False...Rodman was waived for missing practice and being a distraction.

Link: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/news/1999/04/15/rodman_waived/


And when Phil Jackson was asked if he wanted Rodman once becoming coach of the Lakers, he said point blank that the team was too young and inexperienced to handle Rodman's antics. While the Bulls had won 3 championships prior and had both Pippen and Jordan to overshadow him and set an example.

Way to go LAKER FAN...

You expect me to believe you were watching in 94-95 when you weren't even watching your own team in 99?


And I know you didn't seriously just compare the 3 point shooting of Charles Barkley to Dennis Rodman...




If you look at Shaq's supporting casts in LA, besides Kobe, the team didnt have much. Horry was strictly a 3 point shooter.

And Duncan defender par excellence...

Horry was signed by the Spurs because of his ability to defend Duncan, IE so the Lakers wouldn't have it...even Duncan sad so.

How can you discount Horry when he's hit huge game winning, IMO, series deciding shots for Duncan, Hakeem, and Shaq?

Drob had Elliott choking FT's.




I think Robinson's 95 supporting cast with Elliott, Rodman, AJ, Person at least equals a couple of the casts from Shaq's LA years.

If anyone really thinks that any NBA GM would think twice about a 94-95 DRob vs. a 00-02 Shaq, they're just in denial.

The Magic would...




Shaq is arguably the greatest Center EVER. DRob is arguably top 7 or 8. No one puts DRob in the top 5.


Show me one time Shaq outplayed Drob prior to his back injury...

Hell in 01 when the Spurs ran the offense through Drob in game 3 Drob had Shaq's ass in foul trouble. And that was old broken down DRob, Shaq still wasn't fast enough to defend him. No one was. Not even guys like Webber were fast enough...not even when he was old.

None of those guys were fast enough to guard Drob, including Hakeem, he'd foul them out. He was also the best FT shooter of any of them.

That's once reason why he got doubled and tripled more than any of them...because the multiple defenders coverd up the fouls. And unlike Hakeem and Shaq and Duncan...Drob's teamates never made them pay. He didn't have the agressive teamates that those guys did.

He didn't have Cassell coming off the bench for 30 points...shit his starting guards didn't score like that, much less his back ups.

[whottt]

And Rodman was waived by the Mavs for talking shit about Cuban....

He never lost the ability to rebound at a level to keep him in the NBA...he was just too much of a distraction and cancer to be an asset to any team that didn't have...oh Michael Jordan and his 3 rings leading it.

[SRJ]

I think it's a shame Hakeem and Dave only had one playoff shot at each other. One series, while decisvely in Hakeem's favor, just isn't enough. Dirk and Tim have squared off three times in the playoffs. Hell, Malone and Jordan got two cracks at each other from opposite conferences. Bird and Magic did it three times in the Finals. Only one series is a little unfair.

I can't find David's statistics from the 1995 WCF, but IIRC David played well himself but just got outplayed. Statistically speaking, is this true?

[whottt]

David's FG% sucked...other than that his numbers were decent...not as good as Hakeem's scoring but pretty good. Not just for that series, but for that entire playoff run.

Not as bad as 93-94 but pretty bad.

David's FG% started sucking once the AJ and Vinny era was ushered in...prior to that, in the Strickland and Willie Anderson era his FG% was excellent...

Including 91, when his 68% FG shooting tops anything ever done by Shaq, Hakeem or Duncan for a playoff series....or Wilt, or Kareem, for that matter.

Drob became "soft" and all of a sudden couldn't score right around the time his guards started to suck and he started getting doubled and tripled routinely in the post season.

Basically the Spurs were a one man team and if you geared a team to stop David Robinson you could stop the Spurs. It's just that simple.

And Hakeem started winning titles once he was surrounded with a cast that would punish anyone that doubled or tripled him(EG: the 93-94 Rockets setting the record for 3 pointers made and taken in a season).

Rocket fan would like you to believe that Hakeem made all those guys the great shooters that they were...Horry, Elie etc.

[whottt]

SRJ...

Here's Drob's numbers from the 94-95 Playoffs

PPG - 25.3
RB - 12.1
FG%: - 45

In that particular series I believe Drob put up about 23 and 11 on 43% shooting.


To further prove how Drob gets the shaft...

These are Duncan's numbers from our last title:

PPG - 23.6
RB - 12.4
FG% - 46


Need I say more?


Now let's take a look at Drob's numbers prior to AJ and Vinny

1990
PPG - 24.4
RB - 12.0
FG% - 53

1991
PPG - 25.8
RB - 13.5
FG% - 69

With AJ and or Vinny:
1993
PPG - 23.1
RB - 12.6
FG% - 46

1994(Vinny at PG)
PPG - 20.0
RB - 10.0
FG% - 41

1995
Already posted

1996
PPG - 23.1
RB - 10.1
FG% - 52

You can see clearly see a huge dip in his FG% when all of a sudden he had a PG who not only couldn't make a shot outside of a layup...but wouldn't even attempt it. And that was the better guard of the two...


Most people like to say Drob didn't want to win...but I think if you look at his numbers when he actually had halfway decent NBA caliber guards you will see that he was anything but soft...and anything but a disappontment...

He was either leading his team to the biggest single seaosn turnaround in NBA history and taking his team to 7 games against an eventual finalist...or being pretty much unstoppable by a single defender and scoring at a PCT that makes even Shaq blush.



It definitely hurt him...not having guards that could break a d down or punish double teams with their perimeter shooting.

Like I say...I wanna see what these other mofos do with Vinny and AJ. The only evidence we have is Hakeem not even making hte playoffs with AJ.


AJ and Vinny were not NBA caliber starting guards...period...and you can pretty much look at their careers outside of the Spurs and Drob and see what the results were...both numbers wise and team performance wise.

Hakeem didn't even make the playoffs the year he had AJ....and a lot of other years he was more worried about getting paid than playing...so much for love of the game.

Meanwhile Drob and Kareem are the only players in NBA history to lead a post season in rebounds and blocks...


A Drob lead team was never swept...can't say that about Hakeem, Shaq, Kareem...Hakeem had more first round exits than DRob. And what may surprise many fans is that the Spurs had a winning post season record in the Drob era...aint easy with that cast.


When DRob went out with injury, it was the largest negative turnaround in NBA history...the Spurs had a losing record bigtime in games Drob missed during his prime.

Drob is clearly the most under-rated player in the modern era of NBA history...including by fans of his own team.

And when you look at the head to head matchups...he pretty much bitchslapped all these guys...Hakeem matched up with him the best statistically...but Hakeem also had a game smackdam in his prime where he was held to 6 points by Drob.

He was putting up trip doubles and near quads on Shaq...laying 52 points on Zo Mourning...

Leading hte NBA in FTA, Dunks, Scoring, Rebounding, BLocks...

He was an insanely gifted player who does not get the credit he deserves.

[SRJ]

Thanks, whott...

BTW, as a huge Robinson fan myself, I could accept certainly accept criticisms of the Admiral - except for that "soft" bullshit. No one who said it ever defined it (meaning they just didn't like DRob), and for those who believed it had something to do with a disinclination toward physical play, that's pure idiocy. David spent the vast majority of his basketball career colliding with something. Hell, he averaged over 10 boards a game while Dennis Rodman was his teammate - does that sound like Alvan Adams to you? Not me.

[whottt]

Thanks, whott...

BTW, as a huge Robinson fan myself, I could accept certainly accept criticisms of the Admiral - except for that "soft" bullshit. No one who said it ever defined it (meaning they just didn't like DRob), and for those who believed it had something to do with a disinclination toward physical play, that's pure idiocy. David spent the vast majority of his basketball career colliding with something. Hell, he averaged over 10 boards a game while Dennis Rodman was his teammate - does that sound like Alvan Adams to you? Not me.



Werd up...soft players don't lead the NBA in FTA multiple times and rank among the all time leaders in what was a very abbreviated prime.

And straight on about Rodoman too...

Drob gave his response to Rodman by leading the NBA in rebounds the year after Rodman was traded away.


Soft players just don't lead the NBA in categories like Rebounding and FTA multiple times...

To quote Charles Barkley...rebounding is about desire...Drob lead the league in that category twice.


And for a guy with no offensive game it sure is funny how he was the first center in 30 years to lead the NBA in scoring and the only other Center besides Wilt to score 70+ points in a game...

One last bit of trivia then I am done...

Drob won the IBM award given to the player who did the most to help his team win just about every year of his prime, and in the relatively new science of basketball winshares and Wins, Drob, Malone, Stockton and Jordan are the only players in the top 5 of both...the supporting casts speak for themselves.

And Drob remains the only player aside from MJ to win a scoring title, MVP, and a DPOY award.

Diffierence is that MJ's team won 55 games annualy whether he was retired, or not, and still challenged for the finals when he left...Drob's set the record for the biggest single season slide in NBA history.

[whottt]

How about DRob? DRob was clutch? Cmon now.

Drob wasn't clutch on offense, but he also wasn't a choker. IF he took a game winner he'd make about half of them and miss about half of them. He was streaky with his J.

Whether he was clutch or not...he drew mutiple defenders in crunch time because if they weren't on him he was going to be at the basket or at the FT line.

Drob wasn't the guy making no look passes out of bounds(or screwing up the play) and missing the game winning FT's(as an 80% career FT shooter).

And Drob didn't have Robert Horry and Mario Elie hitting game winners for him...he had them hitting them against him.

Drob didn't have Cassell coming off the bench for 30 in a game 5...he didn't have Fisher setting an NBA Conference Finals Record for 3PT PCT...

He had the guy giving those numbers up.


You can make an argument for Hakeem...he whupped up on all the C man to man when he had the team to do so(including Shaq), and his career numbers own everyone but Kareem or Wilt...

But I think if you stick AJ and Vinny on the Champion Rockets as the best guards Hakeem doesn't win shit...I doubt he even makes the playoffs.


And Shaq has probably had the best guards in NBA history outside of Kareem...Kobe Bryant and Dwayne Wade? You are freaking insane if you don't think those guys make a difference to Drob's career.

[whottt]

BTW...here's the best youtube clip I can find of Drob in his prime...

It includes his 360 dunk.

It's also got some nice footage of Elliott in his prime.

[hitmanyr2k]

Werd up...soft players don't lead the NBA in FTA multiple times and rank among the all time leaders in what was a very abbreviated prime.

And straight on about Rodoman too...

Drob gave his response to Rodman by leading the NBA in rebounds the year after Rodman was traded away.


Soft players just don't lead the NBA in categories like Rebounding and FTA multiple times...

To quote Charles Barkley...rebounding is about desire...Drob lead the league in that category twice.


And for a guy with no offensive game it sure is funny how he was the first center in 30 years to lead the NBA in scoring and the only other Center besides Wilt to score 70+ points in a game...

One last bit of trivia then I am done...

Drob won the IBM award given to the player who did the most to help his team win just about every year of his prime, and in the relatively new science of basketball winshares and Wins, Drob, Malone, Stockton and Jordan are the only players in the top 5 of both...the supporting casts speak for themselves.

And Drob remains the only player aside from MJ to win a scoring title, MVP, and a DPOY award.

Diffierence is that MJ's team won 55 games annualy whether he was retired, or not, and still challenged for the finals when he left...Drob's set the record for the biggest single season slide in NBA history.


You can list accomplishments until you're blue in the face. Yeah, D-Rob did all that but not once did he lead his team to a title. bobbyjoe is absolutely correct in saying that Robinson is another version of Kevin Garnett. Another jumpshooting 7 footer. He can get you all the numbers in the world but he wasn't going to deliver a championship with his kind of game. The guy had NO go-to moves when games got tight. I still question how in the hell he never developed that aspect of his game in all those years. Built like a brickhouse and no back-to-the-basket game.

What do Shaq, Hakeem, and Duncan all have in common? Strong post games and rings. They could dominate the paint, wear down defenses, and get a high percentage shot for themselves or their teammates any time they wanted. D-Rob (before Duncan), Garnett, Karl Malone and the rest of those jumpshooting big men have nothing because all they had was a jumpshot to rely on when things got tough. And when pressure time came the basket got smaller for those kind of players.

[Cry Havoc]

You can list accomplishments until you're blue in the face. Yeah, D-Rob did all that but not once did he lead his team to a title. bobbyjoe is absolutely correct in saying that Robinson is another version of Kevin Garnett. Another jumpshooting 7 footer. He can get you all the numbers in the world but he wasn't going to deliver a championship with his kind of game. The guy had NO go-to moves when games got tight. I still question how in the hell he never developed that aspect of his game in all those years. Built like a brickhouse and no back-to-the-basket game.

What do Shaq, Hakeem, and Duncan all have in common? Strong post games and rings. They could dominate the paint, wear down defenses, and get a high percentage shot for themselves or their teammates any time they wanted. D-Rob (before Duncan), Garnett, Karl Malone and the rest of those jumpshooting big men have nothing because all they had was a jumpshot to rely on when things got tough. And when pressure time came the basket got smaller for those kind of players.

Because obviously, Duncan and Shaq would win six rings with Vinny Del Negro as the starting point guard. :spin

[whottt]

bobbyjoe is absolutely correct in saying that Robinson is another version of Kevin Garnett. Another jumpshooting 7 footer.


:lol

[hitmanyr2k]

Because obviously, Duncan and Shaq would win six rings with Vinny Del Negro as the starting point guard. :spin

Yeah, because Derek Fisher's 5 points, 2 assists, and 1 rebound were so key during the Lakers first title run :lol Seriously, ask yourself who the hell would Derek Fisher be without Shaq? In fact ask yourself what would an aging Ron Harper, a perennial loser in Rick Fox, scrub Brian Shaw, Robert Horry, an over-the-hill Glen Rice, old ass A.C. Green and an inconsistent rising star in Kobe Bryant be without Shaq? You put that group with David Robinson and they don't win shit that year. That first Laker title was a product of Shaq's supreme dominance. The guy got double and triple-teamed and STILL found ways to score.

And I don't think the Vinny/Avery combination was any worse than the TP/Claxton combination in 2003. And let's not forget Parker wasn't exactly consistent in 2005 either...especially in the Finals. Couldn't hit a jumpshot to save his life.

[baseline bum]

Rodman was washed up by the time he came to the Lakers.

Bullshit. Rodman averaged 11.2 rebounds in 28 minutes a night in his 23 games in LA. He was waived because he was a fucking nutcase who killed that locker room and didn't want to play defense.


Charles Barkley was known to jack up low % 3 pointers too, but that doesnt mean he wasnt an asset.

Barkley started shooting the three in Houston. I used to live there, and watched tons of his games. The difference is, Barkley had range and could hit a three if you left him open. Charles ended up being a pretty good shooter from 15-20 feet out late in his career.


I dont care how crazy he is, guys like Rodman who are such great rebounders and defenders are assets.

Rodman refused to defend Horry. Horry was getting all kinds of lobs in transition in game 2 of that series. He didn't play any brand of defense in that series. It was like he said fuck it, Horry's a tough matchup, so I ain't guarding him.


Look at the job Rodman did on the Bulls when he frustrated Karl Malone, Shaq in 96, and Alonzo Mourning in the playoffs. He was like a Bruce Bowen, getting in people's head's with borderline dirty play.

No one doubts his natural talent, or ability to play when he wants to. He wanted to in Chicago, because if he didn't, Jordan would kill him.


If Shaq had a younger Rodman like DRob did, the team would just bludgeon you in the paint with Rodman cleaning up the mess when Shaq didnt power the ball into the basket.

Like I just showed before, Rodman was still killing on the glass. If he was so washed up, how come he put up 14.3 boards per game the next year in Dallas?


If you look at Shaq's supporting casts in LA, besides Kobe, the team didnt have much. Horry was strictly a 3 point shooter. DFish and Fox weren't strong players and Shaw was old and slow. Ho Grant was well past his prime and ineffective.

Yeah... Fisher sucked when he shot 75% from the three point line against the Spurs in the 2001 WCF. Don't give me that garbage about Horry being just a three-point shooter. I watched about 75% of Lakers games in the three-peat (I moved to LA the year they won the first of those), and Horry was your best interior defender, and the team's #2 rebounder. He was by far one of the best sixth men I've ever seen.


I think Robinson's 95 supporting cast with Elliott, Rodman, AJ, Person at least equals a couple of the casts from Shaq's LA years.

When has Shaq ever had a bad supporting cast? 96-98 he had Eddie Jones and Nick Van Exel, when they were All-Stars. By 99, Kobe had developed into a top 5 guard, and by 2000 he was a top 3 guard. By 2001 he was the best guard in the league. Plus, you had Rice in 99 and then in 2000, who was considered the best mid-range shooter in the game when he was acquired.

That supporting cast sure sucked when they won you game 7 of the WCF vs Portland.... you know, the one Shaq never showed up in until that lob from Kobe (after the Lakers had already made the comeback and taken the lead). The one where Rice was killing Portland on the block.

Not to mention the clutch shooting of Ron Harper in 2000. Kobe and Fisher won you the series in 2001. Fox was an absolute lock-down defensive player in 2001. By 2002, Kobe was an MVP-level player, and Rob was still saving your asses with his late-game heroics. Fast-forward to 2003, and you have a #2 guy who sets the record for the most 40-point games in a row in NBA history. Some shitty support for Shaq, huh? The very next season you start four Hall of Famers.


If anyone really thinks that any NBA GM would think twice about a 94-95 DRob vs. a 00-02 Shaq, they're just in denial.

That's maybe the only thing I agree with you on here. Of course '00 and '01 Shaq was better than David in his two best years (94 and 95).

[Cry Havoc]

Yeah, because Derek Fisher's 5 points, 2 assists, and 1 rebound were so key during the Lakers first title run :lol Seriously, ask yourself who the hell would Derek Fisher be without Shaq? In fact ask yourself what would an aging Ron Harper, a perennial loser in Rick Fox, scrub Brian Shaw, Robert Horry, an over-the-hill Glen Rice, old ass A.C. Green and an inconsistent rising star in Kobe Bryant be without Shaq? You put that group with David Robinson and they don't win shit that year. That first Laker title was a product of Shaq's supreme dominance. The guy got double and triple-teamed and STILL found ways to score.

And I don't think the Vinny/Avery combination was any worse than the TP/Claxton combination in 2003. And let's not forget Parker wasn't exactly consistent in 2005 either...especially in the Finals. Couldn't hit a jumpshot to save his life.

Kobe's numbers that year: 22.5 PPG, 6.3 RPG, 4.9 APG on 47% shooting. Hardly inconsistant.

And if you'll recall, that Laker team wasn't exactly five or six dimensional. They had Shaq, Kobe, and a bunch of three point shooters who could play decent defense at that point in their careers.

[baseline bum]

Rocket fan would like you to believe that Hakeem made all those guys the great shooters that they were...Horry, Elie etc.

Don't forget the NBA rule change where the line was like 2 feet closer from 93-94 until 94-95 also.

[baseline bum]

And I don't think the Vinny/Avery combination was any worse than the TP/Claxton combination in 2003. And let's not forget Parker wasn't exactly consistent in 2005 either...especially in the Finals. Couldn't hit a jumpshot to save his life.

AJ was a good player, though never as good as even 2003 Parker. Del Negro was garbage. He was like Stojakovic lite. If you wanted 19 point in February against the Clippers, Vinny was your man. Then, he'd follow that up with three 5-7 point games. Del Negro was extremely inconsistent, except in the playoffs, when he was consistently worthless. Vinny Del Negro is the crap they signed when they were too cheap to pay Strickland.

[hitmanyr2k]

Kobe's numbers that year: 22.5 PPG, 6.3 RPG, 4.9 APG on 47% shooting. Hardly inconsistant.

And if you'll recall, that Laker team wasn't exactly five or six dimensional. They had Shaq, Kobe, and a bunch of three point shooters who could play decent defense at that point in their careers.

In the playoffs every single one of his numbers dropped (21 ppg, 4.5 assists, 4.5 rebs on 44% shooting). The further the playoffs went the worse he got. Take a look at his numbers against Portland in the WCF and against Indiana in the Finals. He had some very good games mixed with some absolutely terrible ones. There was nothing consistent about him.

[ambchang]

What do Shaq, Hakeem, and Duncan all have in common? Strong post games and rings. They could dominate the paint, wear down defenses, and get a high percentage shot for themselves or their teammates any time they wanted. D-Rob (before Duncan), Garnett, Karl Malone and the rest of those jumpshooting big men have nothing because all they had was a jumpshot to rely on when things got tough. And when pressure time came the basket got smaller for those kind of players.
You gotta love post-up big men like Larry Bird, and hate jump shooting big men like Charles Barkley.

[Purple & Gold]

All this talk about Robinson being under appreciated is funny as hell. He's considered a top 10 center ever, what else do you guys want. That's pretty damn good. The first three are interchangeable. It's a matter of preference between Kareem, Wilt, and Russell. After that comes Hakeem and Shaq. I would also put Malone above Robinson. As for Walton even though he was very dominant in his little time, had a very short healthy pro career. That's the only one I could see you complain about. All this talk that he got shafted and is under appreciated is ridiculous.

[hitmanyr2k]

You gotta love post-up big men like Larry Bird, and hate jump shooting big men like Charles Barkley.

Try substituting Larry Bird with Kevin McHale and you may be on to something.

[ambchang]

Try substituting Larry Bird with Kevin McHale and you may be on to something.
So you are saying McHale led the Celtics to those 3 championship rather than Bird? Afterall, Bird doesn't have a strong postup game, and that was supposed to be strongly correlated to a player's ability to lead his team to rings.

[hitmanyr2k]

So you are saying McHale led the Celtics to those 3 championship rather than Bird? Afterall, Bird doesn't have a strong postup game, and that was supposed to be strongly correlated to a player's ability to lead his team to rings.

Any idiot knows Bird had a deep team at his disposal and Kevin Mchale's low post game was damn near unstoppable. Just because Mchale doesn't get his name in the lights like Bird doesn't mean shit. Fact is the Celtics HAD a legit low post threat...one of the best of their era. Hell, even Bird had a post game...wasn't as prolific as Mchale's but he had one nonetheless. It still doesn't excuse David Robinson for being lazy and not adding to his game over the years. Mchale didn't start out with a devastating low post game. He developed it and became a better player for it. Ditto for Hakeem Olajuwon. Had Robinson put in the work and refined his game to be a more rounded player maybe his ranking would be a bit higher.

[Dalhoop]

I would post on this thread, but you seem to be argueing about who is 5th-6th all time, I would be happy with either

[Phenomanul]

So Elliott (Mem Day Miracle) wasnt clutch?

How about DRob? DRob was clutch? Cmon now.

One shot (a good one at that)....

Does not surpass the same sort of heroics that the Lakers received out of Horry and Fisher.

Is Shaq considered a clutch player??? The thought is completely laughable. Duncan on the other hand has hit his share of Game winners. DRob had 3 or 4 game winners throughout his career but none during the playoffs... again due to the perfected strategy of forcing everyone else but Robinson to beat you.

[monosylab1k]

Funny how perspective skews history....all of a sudden Drob is leading a high school team to the WCF, and everybody Shaq has ever played with is a future Hall Of Famer.

[whottt]

Funny how perspective skews history....all of a sudden Drob is leading a high school team to the WCF,


He took a team from the Naval Academy to the Great 8...




and everybody Shaq has ever played with is a future Hall Of Famer.


Shaq has played with an All NBA guard every single year of his career but one...

I mean Penny, Kobe, Wade...

Do you think Vinny or AJ are their caliber?

His first Laker Teams were the fucking All Star Team just about...

And he got swept and got his ass kicked worse by the Jazz than Drob did.

[whottt]

Funny how perspective skews history....all of a sudden Drob is leading a high school team to the WCF, and everybody Shaq has ever played with is a future Hall Of Famer.



And btw...the perspective has always been skewed.

It starts with the fact that the Spurs were not National TV much and the only thing people judge by is some series VS the Rockets and Jazz...


And it ends with the fact that Drob wasn't black enough for the black leadership of the NBA.


The teams he took to the playoffs and his incomparable versatility speak for themselves...


DRob is a constant victim of lies and distortion...

Like Shaq saying he idolized Drob until Drob turned him down for an autograph in highshool...

When Drob wasn't even in the NBA when Shaq was in highschool.

[ambchang]

Any idiot knows Bird had a deep team at his disposal and Kevin Mchale's low post game was damn near unstoppable. Just because Mchale doesn't get his name in the lights like Bird doesn't mean shit. Fact is the Celtics HAD a legit low post threat...one of the best of their era. Hell, even Bird had a post game...wasn't as prolific as Mchale's but he had one nonetheless. It still doesn't excuse David Robinson for being lazy and not adding to his game over the years. Mchale didn't start out with a devastating low post game. He developed it and became a better player for it. Ditto for Hakeem Olajuwon. Had Robinson put in the work and refined his game to be a more rounded player maybe his ranking would be a bit higher.
And any idiot would know that the DRob does NOT have the same deep team at his disposal with AJ as his starting point guard, Del Negro as his starting SG (sometimes PG), Elliott as his SF, and an insane Rodman as his PF. In fact, some of those Spurs teams were so bad, Lloyd Daniels was supposed to be the saviour, and Negele Knight started for them a few times.
So Bird not having a low post game is not because he was lazy, but when Robinson doesn't have one, it's because he's lazy. And we are talking about the same Robinson who continued to work on his game year in and year out and kept his body in tip top condition, the same Robinson who defended Shaq 1 on 1 with a floating particle in his back, and the same Robinson who worked tirelessly on his ball-handling and defense, as well as added a semi-hook to his repetoire is lazy, while Shaq, who routinely misses chunks of the season because of his "company time' philosophy, who runs in every season out of shape and had to work his game through the season is not just because he has a post game.
Whether you have a post game or not is not because of how often you worked on it, just like Shaq will never be a good FT shooter because he doesn't have that touch. It has nothing to do with laziness, and coming out with personal attacks on the integrity of Robinson does not excuse you from your stupidity in stating how all big men having low post games will win them rings regardless of their supporting cast.

[monosylab1k]

And btw...the perspective has always been skewed.

It starts with the fact that the Spurs were not National TV much and the only thing people judge by is some series VS the Rockets and Jazz...


And it ends with the fact that Drob wasn't black enough for the black leadership of the NBA.


The teams he took to the playoffs and his incomparable versatility speak for themselves...


DRob is a constant victim of lies and distortion...

Like Shaq saying he idolized Drob until Drob turned him down for an autograph in highshool...

When Drob wasn't even in the NBA when Shaq was in highschool.


http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n22/nickford_2006/violin.gif

[whottt]

Dirk :lmao

[hitmanyr2k]

And any idiot would know that the DRob does NOT have the same deep team at his disposal with AJ as his starting point guard, Del Negro as his starting SG (sometimes PG), Elliott as his SF, and an insane Rodman as his PF. In fact, some of those Spurs teams were so bad, Lloyd Daniels was supposed to be the saviour, and Negele Knight started for them a few times.

Is that supposed to be an excuse? If he doesn't have a deep team then he's going to have to be that much better to get his team over. Did Tim Duncan have a deep team in '03? No. Did Duncan have a deep team in '05? No.


So Bird not having a low post game is not because he was lazy, but when Robinson doesn't have one, it's because he's lazy.

Did you miss the part where I said "Hell, even Bird had a post game...wasn't as prolific as Mchale's but he had one nonetheless...." ?


And we are talking about the same Robinson who continued to work on his game year in and year out and kept his body in tip top condition, the same Robinson who defended Shaq 1 on 1 with a floating particle in his back, and the same Robinson who worked tirelessly on his ball-handling and defense, as well as added a semi-hook to his repetoire is lazy, while Shaq, who routinely misses chunks of the season because of his "company time' philosophy, who runs in every season out of shape and had to work his game through the season is not just because he has a post game.

Yeah, Shaq got a bit lazy after he won a title but up until he won a title he worked on his game all the time. Improved his passing skills, improved his footwork and had an array of moves around the basket to coincide with his prime. Shaq could have stayed a dunking machine collecting stats in the regular season but he didn't.


Whether you have a post game or not is not because of how often you worked on it

Bullshit lol. That's the dumbest thing I've ever read here. Tell that to Hakeem or Mchale and they'll laugh in your face. If you want to improve any aspect of your game you have to work on it tirelessly. You think Tony Parker's broke jumper got fixed all by itself? :lol He worked on it constantly in the off-season. You're telling me David Robinson couldn't have spent a couple of summers at Pete Newell's big man camp improving his footwork? Learning some back-to-the-basket moves? Anything?!?


just like Shaq will never be a good FT shooter because he doesn't have that touch. It has nothing to do with laziness, and coming out with personal attacks on the integrity of Robinson does not excuse you from your stupidity in stating how all big men having low post games will win them rings regardless of their supporting cast.

That was no personal attack on Robinson. It was the truth. In all his career his low post game was below average at best and I didn't see him taking any strides to make it better.

And I didn't say all big men with low post games WILL win rings. I'm saying all big men with dominant low post games HAVE won rings. Get it straight. Shaq, Duncan, and Hakeem all have won with supporting casts (Shaq 2000, Duncan '03, Hakeem '94) that no one gave a shit about. So forgive me if I don't cry for David Robinson and his "lack of" supporting cast.

[baseline bum]

And I didn't say all big men with low post games WILL win rings. I'm saying all big men with dominant low post games HAVE won rings. Get it straight. Shaq, Duncan, and Hakeem all have won with supporting casts (Shaq 2000, Duncan '03, Hakeem '94) that no one gave a shit about. So forgive me if I don't cry for David Robinson and his "lack of" supporting cast.

Shaq didn't have a supporting cast in 2000? Um, WTF? Glen Rice? Kobe Bryant? Robert Horry? Ron Harper? Oh yeah, Shaq carried the Lakers to that game 7 win against Portland with his 9 total shots. Before his 3 point shooters started hitting in the fourth, all Costas and Collins could talk about was how much of a no-show Shaq was again in what looked like the latest in a string of disappearing acts in elimination games. Shaw, Bryant, and Rice are the ones who brought LA back into that game.

Kobe Bryant singlehandedly beat the Pacers in OT in game 4 of the Finals after Shaq fouled out, so don't give me this no supporting cast garbage.

Do you think for a second that Pop wouldn't have traded shitty Vinny Del Negro to get 2000 Ron Harper on his last legs? That's basically what he did in 98 when he didn't even offer him a contract to pick up Mario Elie after the Rockets assumed he was done.

[whottt]

Shaq didn't have a supporting cast in 2000? Um, WTF? Glen Rice? Kobe Bryant? Robert Horry? Ron Harper? Oh yeah, Shaq carried the Lakers to that game 7 win against Portland with his 9 total shots. Before his 3 point shooters started hitting in the fourth, all Costas and Collins could talk about was how much of a no-show Shaq was again in what looked like the latest in a string of disappearing acts in elimination games. Shaw, Bryant, and Rice are the ones who brought LA back into that game.

Kobe Bryant singlehandedly beat the Pacers in OT in game 4 of the Finals after Shaq fouled out, so don't give me this no supporting cast garbage.


Damn...that's some good stuff there base. Well done. :tu

[ambchang]

Is that supposed to be an excuse? If he doesn't have a deep team then he's going to have to be that much better to get his team over. Did Tim Duncan have a deep team in '03? No. Did Duncan have a deep team in '05? No.

Nice showing that Duncan > Robinson, I have no problem with that, even though that weak supporting cast that Duncan had at least have a supporting cast that was built based on an inside out offense (Kerr, Jackson, Ginobili), vs. no one.
Problem is Duncan is not a centre.
And what was Robinson supposed to do? Shoot 3pters because he got crappy guards? Oh wait, he did. what about lead his team in assists? He did as well, lead the league in blocks, rebounds and blocks not enough for you? How about winning MVP and DPoY? Oh no, he has to work harder, and do things nobody could have done, because we all know Bill Russell won 11 rings in 13 years because of his awesome ability to excel with a so-so supporting cast by using his low-post scoring game.


Did you miss the part where I said "Hell, even Bird had a post game...wasn't as prolific as Mchale's but he had one nonetheless...." ?
No I didn't, and that is pure bullshit. Bird does not have a better post up game than DRob. How else would you explain Bird never having more than 500 FTA a season, where DRob routinely had 800 FTA in a season during his prime? Where did Robinson got his FTs from? Jumpshots?


Yeah, Shaq got a bit lazy after he won a title but up until he won a title he worked on his game all the time. Improved his passing skills, improved his footwork and had an array of moves around the basket to coincide with his prime. Shaq could have stayed a dunking machine collecting stats in the regular season but he didn't.

Show me the evidence, because Shaq stayed pretty consistent in his FTA, FG% and PPG throughout his career. And Robinson didn't work on his passing? He saw his Ast/TO ratio improving during his prime, and led his team in assists for a season, that really tells you how awesome his PG is btw.


Bullshit lol. That's the dumbest thing I've ever read here. Tell that to Hakeem or Mchale and they'll laugh in your face. If you want to improve any aspect of your game you have to work on it tirelessly. You think Tony Parker's broke jumper got fixed all by itself? :lol He worked on it constantly in the off-season. You're telling me David Robinson couldn't have spent a couple of summers at Pete Newell's big man camp improving his footwork? Learning some back-to-the-basket moves? Anything?!?
And Robinson didn't work on his game or kept himself in shape? How do you figure? Were you with him during the summer? Did you read reports about him sitting on his ass all summer?
Do some research before you go out and embarrass yourself.
http://www.shepherd.edu/2ramsweb/MBBBIGMAN2004.html


That was no personal attack on Robinson. It was the truth. In all his career his low post game was below average at best and I didn't see him taking any strides to make it better.
Oh my goodness, you didn't see evidence = truth? Hot diggidy damn, why do we need any professionals, let's just all go ask hitmanyr2k!


And I didn't say all big men with low post games WILL win rings. I'm saying all big men with dominant low post games HAVE won rings. Get it straight. Shaq, Duncan, and Hakeem all have won with supporting casts (Shaq 2000, Duncan '03, Hakeem '94) that no one gave a shit about. So forgive me if I don't cry for David Robinson and his "lack of" supporting cast.
Barkley anyone? From a guy who was routinely ousted in the 1st round, to MVP and a trip to the finals, guess what was different? No, it wasn't his low post game, it was because he got Kevin Johnson, Dan Marjele instead of nobody..
As for you assinine comment about Shaq 2000? It was already covered.
Fact is, Shaq didn't suddenly become better in 2000, it's because he's got a better coach and a team that was built around his strengths.

[SRJ]

Let's also bear in mind that, in Finals play, Shaq has dominated all-world centers like Rik Smits, Todd Macculloch, and Desagana Diop. In 2001 he did beat Dikembe Mutombo, that's pretty good.

Olajuwon went through Ewing, Robinson, and Shaq in 1994 and 1995. That's another reason Olajuwon is third on my list and Shaq is fourth.

[hitmanyr2k]

Shaq didn't have a supporting cast in 2000? Um, WTF? Glen Rice? Kobe Bryant? Robert Horry? Ron Harper? Oh yeah, Shaq carried the Lakers to that game 7 win against Portland with his 9 total shots. Before his 3 point shooters started hitting in the fourth, all Costas and Collins could talk about was how much of a no-show Shaq was again in what looked like the latest in a string of disappearing acts in elimination games. Shaw, Bryant, and Rice are the ones who brought LA back into that game.

Glen Rice, Kobe, Horry, and Harper all had the same thing in common....inconsistency. These guys showed up every now and then. Shaq was constant 90% of the time. Shaq started that run against the Blazers in Game 7. He had been doubled and tripled the entire game and didn't force the issue. In the 4th qtr he forced the issue and scored half his points down the stretch and assisted on those baskets.


Kobe Bryant singlehandedly beat the Pacers in OT in game 4 of the Finals after Shaq fouled out, so don't give me this no supporting cast garbage.

Oooooh...one OT lol. That's just about ALL Kobe did the entire Finals. How did he follow up his Game 4 performance?

Game 5 - (4-20 shooting)
Game 6 - (8-27 shooting)

That's called inconsistency. What did Kobe do before Game 4. He had a whopping 14 points (2nd highest scorer), 3 rebs, and 5 assists in Game 1 while Shaq had 40 points, 19 rebs, 4 assists, and 3 blks. Game 2 Kobe goes down in the first qtr. Shaq again with 40 points, 24 rebs, and 3 blks. Kobe didn't even play in Game 3.



Do you think for a second that Pop wouldn't have traded shitty Vinny Del Negro to get 2000 Ron Harper on his last legs? That's basically what he did in 98 when he didn't even offer him a contract to pick up Mario Elie after the Rockets assumed he was done.

The ONLY reason Phil wanted Harper on the team was because he was knew the triangle and could help out in limited minutes. He wasn't some juggernaut roleplayer. Otherwise Harper wouldn't have been a 2nd thought to any other team in the league.

And what was so shitty about Vinny Del Negro? In the '96 playoffs his averages in 10 games.....

14 ppg, 3 rebs, 3 assists, 46% shooting...59% (16 of 27) from 3 point land.

That's about on par with Duncan's BEST roleplayer in 2003. Duncan's best roleplayer was a freakin PG that scored 14 points with 3 assists, and 3 rebounds on 40% shooting and couldn't hit the side of a barn from 3 point land. Once again, excuse me if I don't cry for poor old Dave Robinson's lack of supporting cast.

[Bob Lanier]

Bird does not have a better post up game than DRob. How else would you explain Bird never having more than 500 FTA a season, where DRob routinely had 800 FTA in a season during his prime? Where did Robinson got his FTs from? Jumpshots?
I guess Dirk Nowitzki has a better post-up game than Bird, too.

[lefty]

Why are u talking about Bird?? He wasn't a center :dizzy

[ambchang]

I guess Dirk Nowitzki has a better post-up game than Bird, too.
didn't watch Dirk since 2004?

[ambchang]

Why are u talking about Bird?? He wasn't a center :dizzy
Sorry about being off topic, but some brilliant basketball analyst mentioned that a big man with no post game (or at least a post game as "weak" as Robinson) can never lead his team to a ring.
Bird was brought up to counter this ridiculous claim. I could have brought up Wes Unseld or Willis Reed, I suppose.

[hitmanyr2k]

Sorry about being off topic, but some brilliant basketball analyst mentioned that a big man with no post game (or at least a post game as "weak" as Robinson) can never lead his team to a ring.

Of course the same genius that brought up Larry Bird completely forgot he had one of the best low post scorers of his era on the same team.

And I have no idea why you even brought up Barkley either. A 6'5 forward is NOT a big man :lol

[ambchang]

Of course the same genius that brought up Larry Bird completely forgot he had one of the best low post scorers of his era on the same team.

And I have no idea why you even brought up Barkley either. A 6'5 forward is NOT a big man :lol

I didn't forget McHale was on the team, because that was a direct response to your following quote

You can list accomplishments until you're blue in the face. Yeah, D-Rob did all that but not once did he lead his team to a title. bobbyjoe is absolutely correct in saying that Robinson is another version of Kevin Garnett. Another jumpshooting 7 footer. He can get you all the numbers in the world but he wasn't going to deliver a championship with his kind of game. The guy had NO go-to moves when games got tight. I still question how in the hell he never developed that aspect of his game in all those years. Built like a brickhouse and no back-to-the-basket game.

What do Shaq, Hakeem, and Duncan all have in common? Strong post games and rings. They could dominate the paint, wear down defenses, and get a high percentage shot for themselves or their teammates any time they wanted. D-Rob (before Duncan), Garnett, Karl Malone and the rest of those jumpshooting big men have nothing because all they had was a jumpshot to rely on when things got tough. And when pressure time came the basket got smaller for those kind of players.

So are you saying it was McHale who carried those Celtics team to the 3 rings? Or are you going to say that Bird had a post up game. Afterall, YOU were the one who also said

So forgive me if I don't cry for David Robinson and his "lack of" supporting cast.
So why is Bird's supporting cast (ie McHale) all of a sudden important now? It doesn't matter. Either Mchale lead the Celtics to the 3 championships, or a supporting cast matter. It's one or the other.
And Barkley was a big man, he was 6'5", but he was 260 lbs, and built as one of the most physically unique PF in the league. Doesn't matter he wasn't tall enough, he had a fantastic back to basket game, and rebounds like nobody's business. He is as big as they come.
Weren't you telling me something about Robinson's work ethic?

[Bob Lanier]

I guess Dirk Nowitzki has a better post-up game than Bird, too.
didn't watch Dirk since 2004?
So, since the 2003-2004 season Dirk has shot 2188 free throw attempts in 297 games, for an average of 7.37 FTAs per game.

Tim Duncan has shot 2016 FTAs in 278 games over the same period, for an average of 7.25 FTAs per game.

Is Dirk Nowitzki simply more of a threat from the low post than Duncan is, or are you willing to accept that jumpshooting and slashing big men (like David Robinson) are capable of drawing fouls as capably as post-up players who have dependable go-to moves?

[ambchang]

So, since the 2003-2004 season Dirk has shot 2188 free throw attempts in 297 games, for an average of 7.37 FTAs per game.

Tim Duncan has shot 2016 FTAs in 278 games over the same period, for an average of 7.25 FTAs per game.

Is Dirk Nowitzki simply more of a threat from the low post than Duncan is, or are you willing to accept that jumpshooting and slashing big men (like David Robinson) are capable of drawing fouls as capably as post-up players who have dependable go-to moves?
I can do that or I can look at how Dirk shoots 0.43 FTs per FGA, vs. 0.46 for Duncan during the same period. Doesn't sound much, except in a game where the star player shoots 15 - 20 shots, it amounts to 25 to 30 FTAs a season.
Afterall, it's hard to get FTa without shooting.

[Cry Havoc]

So, since the 2003-2004 season Dirk has shot 2188 free throw attempts in 297 games, for an average of 7.37 FTAs per game.

Tim Duncan has shot 2016 FTAs in 278 games over the same period, for an average of 7.25 FTAs per game.

Is Dirk Nowitzki simply more of a threat from the low post than Duncan is, or are you willing to accept that jumpshooting and slashing big men (like David Robinson) are capable of drawing fouls as capably as post-up players who have dependable go-to moves?

Dirk plays with his back to the hoop about as often as David drove in from outside the 3 point line. Robinson was a complete player. He had a jumpshot, and play with his back to the hoop as well. But I'm not delusional enough to think he could slash like Dirk, but he was MUCH more of a post presence.