ESPN Top 10 Centers

[GINNNNNNNNNNNNOBILI]

1. Abdul-Jabbar
2. Chamberlain
3. Russell
4. O'Neal
5. Olajuwon
6. Malone
7. Walton
8. Robinson
9. Mikan
10. Ewing

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dailydime-GreatestCenters

[Obstructed_View]

Glad Dave made it into the top ten. Hard to argue with the placement. I think Shaq is too high on the list, though.

[ggoose25]

Walton > Drob?

I never saw big bill play, so I'm at a biased disadvantage, but when I think of "great" centers, Walton just doesnt come to mind. Drob was a freak of nature and his stats are better than Walton's. I just dont get it

[dougp]

1. Abdul-Jabbar
2. Chamberlain
3. Russell
4. O'Neal
5. Olajuwon
6. Malone
7. Walton
8. Robinson
9. Mikan
10. Ewing

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dailydime-GreatestCenters

It should really be

1. Abdul-Jabbar
2. Chamberlain
3. Russell
5. Olajuwon
8. Robinson
4. O'Neal
6. Malone
7. Walton
9. Mikan
10. Ewing

I know the numbers are out of order, and I do wonder about Olaj and DRob, I think they should be tie'd but who knows. No way is O'Neal better than Robinson or Olaj, they're both a LOT more atheltic than the fat fuck.

[whottt]

Normally I'd be pissed at DRob's placement...

However, the bigger deal on this list is Wilt Chamberlain not being ranked #1.

These idiots are obviously placing Kareem's talent to play with Oscar Robertson and Magic Johnson over Wilt's ability to put up 50 and 35 per game.

RE: Walton

Bill Walton made the playoffs exactly 4 times in his entire career, the last 2 of which he was coming off the bench for the Celtics...aint no fucking way he was better than David Robinson, on his best day.


True, he did win that one title the year he had multiple All Stars on his team...

[2Cleva]

You know it was Hollinger and his stupid-ass calculator that gave Dwight Howard a top-10 vote.

[FromWayDowntown]

You know it was Hollinger and his stupid-ass calculator that gave Dwight Howard a top-10 vote.

I figured it was jeffdrums22

[Spurminator]

Good to see ESPN has come around. When Patrick Ewing retired, they listed the top 10 centers of all time and David Robinson was not among them. (Ewing was #10)

[SRJ]

This is actually pretty close, surprisingly. But what in fuck's name is Walton doing there? I'm sure he would have legitimately made the list if his feet weren't made out of eggshell, but this is too much credit for a short career.

1. Chamberlain
2. Abdul-Jabbar
3. Olajuwon
4. O'Neal
5. Robinson
6. M. Malone
7. Russell
8. Cowens
9. Ewing
10. Gilmore

[Agloco]

This list is a pile of shit......

Where the hell is Jack Sikma or Manute Bol?


:donkey :donkey

[mabber]

1. Abdul-Jabbar
2. Chamberlain
3. Russell
4. O'Neal
5. Olajuwon
6. Malone
7. Walton
8. Robinson
9. Mikan
10. Ewing

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dailydime-GreatestCenters

I'd put Chamberlain #1.

I'd put Robinson ahead of Moses & Walton. Walton was damn good but was always hurt. I have no clue about Mikan other than what I've heard & read about him.

[silk]

so there's nobody who thinks olajuwon was the best?

[whottt]

Olajuwon wasn't better than Wilt. And Kareem's numbers and rings are too strong to be any lower than #2. I'd say Hakeem is deserving of #3.

[whottt]

Good to see ESPN has come around. When Patrick Ewing retired, they listed the top 10 centers of all time and David Robinson was not among them. (Ewing was #10)


The smarter they get the more impressive Drob's career is going to become.

[Spurminator]

The vote breakout is interesting. Half of the voters ranked Russell as #1 all time, and only 5 voted Kareem #1, but Kareem still ended with the better score.

Other interesting votes:

- John Hollinger believes Shaq is the number one center of all time.

- Jamal Mashburn ranked Robinson and Olajuwan above Shaq

[ggoose25]

the dream could not be stopped. give him a top 5.

walton on the other hand fucking rigged the list. goddamn abc-epsn sports

[Taco]

Teams: San Antonio Spurs (1989-2003)
Titles: 2 (1999, 2003)

Honors: 10-time NBA All-Star, MVP (1995), Rookie of the Year (1990), Defensive Player of the Year (1992)

The player: A taller, more skilled version of Russell, Robinson possessed all the gifts -- he blocked shots, rebounded, scored and defended. The Admiral brought incredible quickness to the center position and competed at a supreme level with grace.

He also won a scoring title in 1994. But perhaps his greatest accomplishment was switching from an offensive force to a defensive presence to get his two rings

[mabber]

so there's nobody who thinks olajuwon was the best?

I could make an argument for him to be ahead of Shaq but definitely not ahead of Russell.

[whottt]

Anyone want to take a look at Walton's numbers VS Drob's and say they'd take Walton over DRob?

This list is a joke.

[Jimcs50]

My Top 10


1. Chamberlain
2. Russell
3.Abdul-Jabbar
4. Olajuwon
5. Malone
6. O'Neal
7. Robinson
8. Walton
9. Mikan
10. Ewing

[ambchang]

Walton was great in college, injuries destroyed his career, and this list should reflect that. I can't understand how 2.5 years of dominance would rank Walton that high on the list.
Shaq is way way too high, no way is he > Olajuwon and Malone.
This list once again showed that when it comes to ranking, offense > defense, I mean, where the hell is Nate Thurmond?

[K-State Spur]

LOL at Scoop Jackson. He has Hakeem as #2 and Robinson not even in his top 10.

[monosylab1k]

Maybe this is blasphemy, but i think Kareem is definitely overrated. Yeah, the skyhook and shot blocking were great, but the guy was all finesse. I think if he went head-to-head against Shaq with both men in their primes, that Shaq would just abuse the hell out of him and dominate him. Same with Chamberlain, and maybe Russell.

[Obstructed_View]

On their best days, I'd take Walton over Robinson. Just because he had injuries doesn't mean he wasn't fucking awesome when he wasn't. If lack of injury was important then Parrish or Cookie Monster should be on the list.

[Obstructed_View]

LOL at Scoop Jackson. He has Hakeem as #2 and Robinson not even in his top 10.
Certainly you aren't surprised by that, right?

[Supergirl]

If Malone (Karl, I presume) makes a list of best centers then Duncan should too, and he'd be in the top 5 at least.

D-Rob > Bill Walton.

[whottt]

If Malone (Karl, I presume) makes a list of best centers then Duncan should too, and he'd be in the top 5 at least.

D-Rob > Bill Walton.



Moses Malone...

[whottt]

On their best days, I'd take Walton over Robinson. Just because he had injuries doesn't mean he wasn't fucking awesome when he wasn't. If lack of injury was important then Parrish or Cookie Monster should be on the list.



On his best day he wasn't as good as Drob.

Not defensively, not offensively...not any ly period.

[ggoose25]

If Malone (Karl, I presume) makes a list of best centers then Duncan should too, and he'd be in the top 5 at least.

D-Rob > Bill Walton.

sorry supergirl, it was Moses Malone

[ShoogarBear]

Walton got Kerr'd on this list. Way too high for a limited time of productivity.

[tlongII]

At his peak, Walton was the best center I've ever seen.

[ShoogarBear]

Gulliver was the tallest man the Lilliputians ever saw.

[Obstructed_View]

On his best day he wasn't as good as Drob.

Not defensively, not offensively...not any ly period.

Yeah, just look at all the hall of famers Walton needed to help him win the '77 NBA title.

[Obstructed_View]

At his peak, Walton was the best center I've ever seen.
You're about as unbiased as whottt. Stay off my side. Walton's peak was in Los Angeles.

[Fillmoe]

the dream is 5th?


GET THE FUCK OUTTA HERE!!!! ewing is 10th....... BSPN is on some bullshit

[nkdlunch]

where's Rasho?

[Fillmoe]

LOL at Scoop Jackson. He has Hakeem as #2 and Robinson not even in his top 10.


pretty much on point....

[ambchang]

Maybe this is blasphemy, but i think Kareem is definitely overrated. Yeah, the skyhook and shot blocking were great, but the guy was all finesse. I think if he went head-to-head against Shaq with both men in their primes, that Shaq would just abuse the hell out of him and dominate him. Same with Chamberlain, and maybe Russell.
Olajuwon and Robinson both had finesse games, and they both faced Shaq in their respective primes and Shaq's as well, Shaq was the one destroyed in those games.

[sprrs]

Olajuwon wasn't better than Wilt. And Kareem's numbers and rings are too strong to be any lower than #2. I'd say Hakeem is deserving of #3.

a legit argument can be made of placing Shaq higher then Hakeem. Sure he won his four titles with Kobe/Wade, but he's still one of the most dominant players in the league.

[sprrs]

Olajuwon and Robinson both had finesse games, and they both faced Shaq in their respective primes and Shaq's as well, Shaq was the one destroyed in those games.

That probably has more to do with the types of games they have. It's a tough call, but if I were starting a franchise, I would take a young Shaq over a young Hakeem just because he was harder to match up with because of his mass and strength.

[mabber]

That probably has more to do with the types of games they have. It's a tough call, but if I were starting a franchise, I would take a young Shaq over a young Hakeem just because he was harder to match up with because of his mass and strength.

I would as well.

[Spurminator]

Tim Duncan is the best Power Forward of all time and the fourth best Center of all time.

[monosylab1k]

Olajuwon and Robinson both had finesse games, and they both faced Shaq in their respective primes and Shaq's as well, Shaq was the one destroyed in those games.

Shaq didn't hit his prime until he was with the Lakers.

[whottt]

How did Ewing grab the 10 spot anyway? Damn sure wasn't because of rings...or dominating the others, or winning.


If the Knicks had ever had a C with actual talent...none of the guys on this list would stand a chance of being #1.

[whottt]

Shaq didn't hit his Kobe Bryant and Phil Jackson until he was with the Lakers.


Fixed that for you...

[mavsfan1000]

Only the biggest spurs homer would put Robinson over Shaq. As for the all time list I can't make considering I haven't watched the games way back than. Olajuwon though is overrated as he had 2 or 3 great years and than faded while Shaq has been a constant.

[phxspurfan]

1. Chamberlain
2. Abdul-Jabbar
3. Olajuwon
4. O'Neal
5. Robinson
6. M. Malone
7. Russell
8. Cowens
9. Ewing
10. Gilmore


this is dumb. you guys are forgetting too many big names. It goes like this:

1. Ostertag
2. Smits
3. Bradley
4. Cartwright
5. Kwame Brown
6. Oliver Miller
7. Longley
8. Bateer
9.
10.
there is no 9 or 10 because these are by far and away the best.

[whottt]

Only the biggest spurs homer would put Robinson over Shaq.

Shaq could only go 2-1 against old Drob...with Kobe, and PJ and Horry.

Young Drob wiped his ass with Shaq.

[Spurminator]

As for the all time list I can't make considering I haven't watched the games way back than. Olajuwon though is overrated as he had 2 or 3 great years and than faded

By "way back then" you must mean pre-1994.

[monosylab1k]

Fixed that for you...

And Kareem didn't have Magic, Worthy, Robertson, Riley, etc?

[dirk4mvp]

I'm assuming Walton is on the list due to his awesome play by play commentary abilities.

[lefty]

Hey, Walton was a great, great player ; if it wasn't for his injuries, he could have dominated the L for many years. When he was healthy, he gave Jabbar a really hard time

[RC's Boss]

Olajuwon wasn't better than Wilt. And Kareem's numbers and rings are too strong to be any lower than #2. I'd say Hakeem is deserving of #3.
I agree w/ that, but I'll say this, if they were playing w/ Hakeem in his prime, he would roast any of the mofos on this list.

[RC's Boss]

I would as well.
not me

[monosylab1k]

Shaq could only go 2-1 against old Drob...with Kobe, and PJ and Horry.

Young Drob wiped his ass with Shaq.

Like this? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy-0RWbbzd8)

[Viva Las Espuelas]

Shaq could only go 2-1 against old Drob...with Kobe, and PJ and Horry.

Young Drob wiped his ass with Shaq.The Admiral always frustrated Shaq. I remember when Shaq challened him to a boxing match.

[AFBlue]

I'm assuming Walton is on the list due to his awesome play by play commentary abilities.

:lol

I love his ESPN Sportsnation chats and his appearances on the morning talk shows. The guy gets in like 4 questions in a one-hour session. I remember last year around this time, he waxed poetic through a 15 minute segment of Mike & Mike about ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

GOAT!

[FromWayDowntown]

Only the biggest spurs homer would put Robinson over Shaq. As for the all time list I can't make considering I haven't watched the games way back than. Olajuwon though is overrated as he had 2 or 3 great years and than faded while Shaq has been a constant.

Yup. Pretty much:


Year Ag Tm Lg G MP FG FGA 3P 3PA FT FTA ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TO PF PTS
+---------------+----+----+----+----+---+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+---+---+---+---+----+
1985 22 HOU NBA 82 35.5 8.3 15.3 0.0 0.0 4.1 6.7 5.4 6.5 11.9 1.4 1.2 2.7 2.9 4.2 20.6
1986 23 HOU NBA 68 36.3 9.2 17.5 0.0 0.0 5.1 7.9 4.9 6.6 11.5 2.0 2.0 3.4 2.9 4.0 23.5
1987 24 HOU NBA 75 36.8 9.0 17.8 0.0 0.1 5.3 7.6 4.2 7.2 11.4 2.9 1.9 3.4 3.0 3.9 23.4
1988 25 HOU NBA 79 35.8 9.0 17.5 0.0 0.1 4.8 6.9 3.8 8.3 12.1 2.1 2.1 2.7 3.1 4.1 22.8
1989 26 HOU NBA 82 36.9 9.6 19.0 0.0 0.1 5.5 8.0 4.1 9.4 13.5 1.8 2.6 3.4 3.4 4.0 24.8
1990 27 HOU NBA 82 38.1 9.8 19.6 0.0 0.1 4.7 6.5 3.6 10.4 14.0 2.9 2.1 4.6 3.9 3.8 24.3
1991 28 HOU NBA 56 36.8 8.7 17.1 0.0 0.1 3.8 4.9 3.9 9.8 13.8 2.3 2.2 3.9 3.1 3.9 21.2
1992 29 HOU NBA 70 37.7 8.4 16.8 0.0 0.0 4.7 6.1 3.5 8.6 12.1 2.2 1.8 4.3 2.7 3.8 21.6
1993 30 HOU NBA 82 39.5 10.3 19.5 0.0 0.1 5.4 7.0 3.5 9.6 13.0 3.5 1.8 4.2 3.2 3.7 26.1
1994 31 HOU NBA 80 41.0 11.2 21.2 0.1 0.2 4.9 6.8 2.9 9.1 11.9 3.6 1.6 3.7 3.4 3.6 27.3
1995 32 HOU NBA 72 39.6 11.1 21.5 0.0 0.2 5.6 7.5 2.4 8.4 10.8 3.5 1.8 3.4 3.3 3.5 27.8
1996 33 HOU NBA 72 38.8 10.7 20.8 0.0 0.2 5.5 7.6 2.4 8.4 10.9 3.6 1.6 2.9 3.4 3.4 26.9

And he only averaged 25.9 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 3.2 apg, and 3.3 bpg in 145 career playoff games.

And he was only All-NBA First Team on 6 occasions, while making the 2nd Team 3 times and the 3rd Team 3 times. (most of which came in an era where he was competing, first, with guys like Jabbar, and later with guys like Shaq, Robinson, and Ewing). And he was only named 5 times to the First Team All-Defense selections and 4 times to the Second Team All-Defense. And he only had 12 All-Star appearances.

Other than a couple of years, though, he really wasn't very good at all.

[RC's Boss]

Yup. Pretty much:


Year Ag Tm Lg G MP FG FGA 3P 3PA FT FTA ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TO PF PTS
+---------------+----+----+----+----+---+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+---+---+---+---+----+
1985 22 HOU NBA 82 35.5 8.3 15.3 0.0 0.0 4.1 6.7 5.4 6.5 11.9 1.4 1.2 2.7 2.9 4.2 20.6
1986 23 HOU NBA 68 36.3 9.2 17.5 0.0 0.0 5.1 7.9 4.9 6.6 11.5 2.0 2.0 3.4 2.9 4.0 23.5
1987 24 HOU NBA 75 36.8 9.0 17.8 0.0 0.1 5.3 7.6 4.2 7.2 11.4 2.9 1.9 3.4 3.0 3.9 23.4
1988 25 HOU NBA 79 35.8 9.0 17.5 0.0 0.1 4.8 6.9 3.8 8.3 12.1 2.1 2.1 2.7 3.1 4.1 22.8
1989 26 HOU NBA 82 36.9 9.6 19.0 0.0 0.1 5.5 8.0 4.1 9.4 13.5 1.8 2.6 3.4 3.4 4.0 24.8
1990 27 HOU NBA 82 38.1 9.8 19.6 0.0 0.1 4.7 6.5 3.6 10.4 14.0 2.9 2.1 4.6 3.9 3.8 24.3
1991 28 HOU NBA 56 36.8 8.7 17.1 0.0 0.1 3.8 4.9 3.9 9.8 13.8 2.3 2.2 3.9 3.1 3.9 21.2
1992 29 HOU NBA 70 37.7 8.4 16.8 0.0 0.0 4.7 6.1 3.5 8.6 12.1 2.2 1.8 4.3 2.7 3.8 21.6
1993 30 HOU NBA 82 39.5 10.3 19.5 0.0 0.1 5.4 7.0 3.5 9.6 13.0 3.5 1.8 4.2 3.2 3.7 26.1
1994 31 HOU NBA 80 41.0 11.2 21.2 0.1 0.2 4.9 6.8 2.9 9.1 11.9 3.6 1.6 3.7 3.4 3.6 27.3
1995 32 HOU NBA 72 39.6 11.1 21.5 0.0 0.2 5.6 7.5 2.4 8.4 10.8 3.5 1.8 3.4 3.3 3.5 27.8
1996 33 HOU NBA 72 38.8 10.7 20.8 0.0 0.2 5.5 7.6 2.4 8.4 10.9 3.6 1.6 2.9 3.4 3.4 26.9

And he only averaged 25.9 ppg, 11.2 rpg, 3.2 apg, and 3.3 bpg in 145 career playoff games.

And he was only All-NBA First Team on 6 occasions, while making the 2nd Team 3 times and the 3rd Team 3 times. (most of which came in an era where he was competing, first, with guys like Jabbar, and later with guys like Shaq, Robinson, and Ewing). And he was only named 5 times to the First Team All-Defense selections and 4 times to the Second Team All-Defense. And he only had 12 All-Star appearances.

Other than a couple of years, though, he really wasn't very good at all.
You can't consider Hakeem overrated if you REALLY watched him play. Nice way to prove a point.

[mavsfan1000]

93-96 is when Olajuwon made his mark. After that though he wasn't really that good. He definitely wasn't a Shaq on the offensive end that fouled everyone out. He had some solid players on that team. Kenny Smith, Sam Cassell, Robert Horry, Clyde Drexler, Vernon Maxwell, and Mario Elie. Shaq had Kobe and that is about it. Medvedenko? :lmao

[Spurminator]

It's amazing how he blocked enough shots in those 3 years to become the NBA's all time leader.

[whottt]

Like this? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy-0RWbbzd8)


Ever notice how other C's are measured by what they did against Drob?

Sabonis
Hakeem
Shaq



No one ever remember DRob winning the Gold Medal against Sabonis(when half his team wasn't sick)

No one remembers Drob PWNTING Hakeem head to head at a 30-12 clip, even with Hakeem being suppported by Barkley, and Pippen and Drexler.

No one remember Shaq's o-fer against Drob his first 3 years in the league...the trip doubles and near quads he laid on Shaq's one dimensional ass.

Post your All Star Dunk....shoulda watched Shaq's first All Star Game.


There aren't that many clips of Drob because Spurs games didn't get a lot of national PT...that's why you can take everything said about him(including by broadcasters who I gurantee didn't see him play that much) with a grain of salt.

[RC's Boss]

93-96 is when Olajuwon made his mark. After that though he wasn't really that good. He definitely wasn't a Shaq on the offensive end that fouled everyone out. He had some solid players on that team. Kenny Smith, Sam Cassell, Robert Horry, Clyde Drexler, Vernon Maxwell, and Mario Elie. Shaq had Kobe and that is about it. Medvedenko? :lmao
crack kills

[Spurminator]

93-96 is when Olajuwon made his mark. After that though he wasn't really that good.

And how about the decade before that?

[Extra Stout]

On their best days, I'd take Walton over Robinson. Just because he had injuries doesn't mean he wasn't fucking awesome when he wasn't. If lack of injury was important then Parrish or Cookie Monster should be on the list.
Bill Walton never even averaged 19 points a game in any season, not even his MVP campaign in 1977-78. Until his feet were finally fixed in 1985, he never played more than 65 games in a season.

In Walton's prime, his game was like Hakeem Olajuwon's in his decline.

Walton's "best days" were few and far between in the NBA, and his "great" pro career is a myth extrapolated from his achievements in college.

[mavsfan1000]

And how about the decade before that?
And the titles before that?

[whottt]

Walton's "best days" were few and far between in the NBA, and his "great" pro career is a myth extrapolated from his achievements in college.


But but...finals MVP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just like Chauncey Billups!

[aaronstampler]

LOL at Scoop Jackson. He has Hakeem as #2 and Robinson not even in his top 10.

He probably doesn't think Dave was black enough.

[whottt]

And the titles before that?


Speaking of titles.............

[Extra Stout]

93-96 is when Olajuwon made his mark. After that though he wasn't really that good. He definitely wasn't a Shaq on the offensive end that fouled everyone out. He had some solid players on that team. Kenny Smith, Sam Cassell, Robert Horry, Clyde Drexler, Vernon Maxwell, and Mario Elie. Shaq had Kobe and that is about it. Medvedenko? :lmao
Did you watch basketball while Shaq and Kobe were winning championships?

[Extra Stout]

And the titles before that?


I guess Dirk sucks then.

[monosylab1k]

No one remembers Drob PWNTING Hakeem head to head at a 30-12 clip, even with Hakeem being suppported by Barkley, and Pippen and Drexler.

Unfortunately, EVERYONE remembers Hakeem kicking the shit out of Drob in the WCF.

I'm not saying Robinson wasn't great cuz he obviously was. But there's no way you can put him over Hakeem or Shaq. In my non-Spurs fan opinion.

[Extra Stout]

He probably doesn't think Dave was black enough.
I loved Scoop's article where he says that the security problems during the All-Star Game in Vegas were a myth propagated by white racism.

[mavsfan1000]

Did you watch basketball while Shaq and Kobe were winning championships?
Yep. I also watched titles while Hakeem got championships. Lucky for Hakeem that the bulls didn't have Jordan or Hakeem would be ringless.

[monosylab1k]

I loved Scoop's article where he says that the security problems during the All-Star Game in Vegas were a myth propagated by white racism.

Not even Al Sharpton plays the race card as much as Scoop Jackson. I was shocked that he didn't blame the white man for Tim Hardaway's homophobia. Or did he?

[whottt]

I'm not saying Robinson wasn't great cuz he obviously was. But there's no way you can put him over Hakeem or Shaq. In my non-Spurs fan opinion.


Hmmmm....

Why is Shaq over him?

Robinson teams were 2-1 against Shaq's in the post season...including a sweep. Hakeem didn't sweep DRob, he swept Shaq.

Drob has a winning record against Shaq...

Drob owned Shaq's ass for a scoring title...

Lead the League in rebounding and blocks(which Shaq never did).


Why?

Oh because he played in LA, dunked a lot, never got called for offensive fouls, and has had an All NBA guard just about every year of his career.


Just foul Shaq.....problem solved.

[Extra Stout]

No one remembers Drob PWNTING Hakeem head to head at a 30-12 clip, even with Hakeem being suppported by Barkley, and Pippen and Drexler.
I remember the days when Spurs fans had to hang their hats on the regular season. That was a long time ago.

[Spurminator]

And the titles before that?


:lmao

Do you really want to go down the path of basing an evaluation of a player on NBA Championships, Mav fan?

How about 5 selections each on the All-NBA and All-Defensive teams? How about an NBA Finals record for blocked shots in a game?

You do realize Akeem Olajuwon and Hakeem Olajuwon are the same person?

[K-State Spur]

Shaq deserves to be at the top of this list. He would have dominated any generation and could easily score 100 points a game if he played when Wilt did.

If Shaq had played when Wilt did, he would have been called for 6 offensive fouls on the first 6 possessions of the game.

[whottt]

I remember the days when Spurs fans had to hang their hats on the regular season. That was a long time ago.


Do you remember Hakeem not even making the playoffs? (Hint: he had AJ as a PG)

Stick that in your regular season and smoke it.


Come to think of it...I can remember Kareem, Wilt, Ewing and Shaq not making the playoffs too...when healthy in their primes.

Yeah...regular season is over-rated.

[Extra Stout]

Not even Al Sharpton plays the race card as much as Scoop Jackson. I was shocked that he didn't blame the white man for Tim Hardaway's homophobia. Or did he?
Scoop Jackson is to Ralph Wiley as Rasho Nesterovic is to David Robinson.

[Extra Stout]

Do you remember Hakeem not even making the playoffs? (Hint: he had AJ as a PG)

Stick that in your regular season and smoke it.


Come to think of it...I can remember Kareem, Wilt, Ewing and Shaq not making the playoffs too...when healthy in their primes.

Yeah...regular season is over-rated.
Yeah... missing the playoffs cancels out those Finals MVP's.

[monosylab1k]

Drob owned Shaq's ass for a scoring title...

Oh are you talking about the year that in the final game of the season, everyone else on the Spurs took the night off offensively so that Drob could score 71 points and beat Shaq? That scoring title?

I like this little note here about that game - In that game, Spurs coach John Lucas had his team commit fouls toward the end of the game to get Robinson more shot attempts allowing him to win the scoring title.

If it's not done within the natural flow of the game, it cheapens the game. Robinson got a cheapened scoring title that year, bottom line.

Like I already said, I'm not interested in trying to detract from how great Robinson was. I really like him alot and thought he was great. But if I'm building a team and I have my choice between Robinson or Shaq at center, I'm taking Shaq every time.

[monosylab1k]

Do you remember Hakeem not even making the playoffs? (Hint: he had AJ as a PG)

Stick that in your regular season and smoke it.


Come to think of it...I can remember Kareem, Wilt, Ewing and Shaq not making the playoffs too...when healthy in their primes.

Yeah...regular season is over-rated.

Shaq missed the playoffs once - his rookie year.

Hardly his "prime".

[whottt]

Yeah... missing the playoffs cancels out those Finals MVP's.


Ironically enough...it's the Houston Rockets that are listed as the NBA champions those years...not the Hakeem Olajuwon's.

[whottt]

Shaq missed the playoffs once - his rookie year.

Hardly his "prime".


My bad...he did make the playoffs all those other years...it's just that he got swept so much I forgot...

[monosylab1k]

Scoop Jackson is to Ralph Wiley as Rasho Nesterovic is to David Robinson.

Yeah, I forgot about Wiley. But at least he was somewhat well respected. Scoop Jackson's got no credibility or respect whatsoever. He's even getting punked by Jason Whitlock.

[mavsfan1000]

My bad...he did make the playoffs all those other years...it's just that he got swept so much I forgot...
Oh yeah Shaq and a 19 year old Kobe vs Duncan and David Robinson. Sounds fair. :rolleyes

[Spurminator]

I like this little note here about that game - In that game, Spurs coach John Lucas had his team commit fouls toward the end of the game to get Robinson more shot attempts allowing him to win the scoring title.


Can this be validated?

Obviously no one saw it on TV, but I've only read one recap that mentions that (and I assume it's yours too because it's quoted directly).

[Spurminator]

Oh yeah Shaq and a 19 year old Kobe vs Duncan and David Robinson. Sounds fair.

The 1999 Lakers had 4 players who were All Stars the previous year. (No ASG in 1999)

[whottt]

Oh are you talking about the year that in the final game of the season, everyone else on the Spurs took the night off offensively so that Drob could score 71 points and beat Shaq? That scoring title?

I like this little note here about that game - In that game, Spurs coach John Lucas had his team commit fouls toward the end of the game to get Robinson more shot attempts allowing him to win the scoring title.



Pretty amazing since the Spurs only commited 17 fouls in that entire game and no player had more than 3 fouls.


Where'd you get that bullshit from? Wikipedia?

I'd like to talk to the guy who wrote it...Spursfans have been looking for a copy of that game for ever since the game wasn't on TV....




If it's not done within the natural flow of the game, it cheapens the game. Robinson got a cheapened scoring title that year, bottom line.


Full of shit much?

Does it bother you knowing that you are attempting to argue based entirely on...your ass?



Like I already said, I'm not interested in trying to detract from how great Robinson was. I really like him alot and thought he was great. But if I'm building a team and I have my choice between Robinson or Shaq at center, I'm taking Shaq every time.



Better not...if you're Orlando...you might just wind up royally fucked.

[whottt]

Oh yeah Shaq and a 19 year old Kobe vs Duncan and David Robinson. Sounds fair. :rolleyes


What about every other year?

[Extra Stout]

Ironically enough...it's the Houston Rockets that are listed as the NBA champions those years...not the Hakeem Olajuwon's.
And the Spurs were never listed as NBA champions in any year until Tim Duncan came aboard.

[mavsfan1000]

I can't believe I'm defending Shaq but it is clear that Shaq is better career wise than David Robinson. Any non homer would see it.

[whottt]

And the Spurs were never listed as NBA champions in any year until Tim Duncan came aboard.


And to think...Mario Elie had the balls to call them soft that year.

[monosylab1k]

Pretty amazing since the Spurs only commited 17 fouls in that entire game and no player had more than 3 fouls.


Where'd you get that bullshit from? Wikipedia?

I'd like to talk to the guy who wrote it...Spursfans have been looking for a copy of that game for ever since the game wasn't on TV....

Full of shit much?

Does it bother you knowing that you are attempting to argue based entirely on...your ass?

Better not...if you're Orlando...you might just wind up royally fucked.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EPF/is_n23_v97/ai_20454706

one of a few articles i've found about it. Not wikipedia. that one was written in 1998. if you'd like more i'll post them.

There's even an article written in Robinson's own words saying that the entire focus of the Spurs game was to put the scoring title out of reach for Shaq. And if the team is napping the entire game and then starts foul in the end to lengthen the game, 17 fouls could be alot. like i said, a cheap way to get the scoring title.

Again, I was always a big fan of Robinson, so being in a debate where I'm trying to criticize him isn't exactly something I want to do. But whatever.

[itzsoweezee]

1. Chamberlain
2. Abdul-Jabbar
3. Russell
4. Olajuwon
5. Robinson
6. O'Neal

i have no idea how good a player malone was, but these are the guys i think you could say are better than robinson. although i think oneal, robinson, and olajuwon are all about even. olajuwon gets overhyped just because of that one playoff series (you know which i'm talking about)

[dbreiden83080]

Hakeem is definately better than David i am not so sure about Shaq. Wilt is the best ever that is not even close.

I'll go

1)Wilt
2)Jabbar
3)Hakeem
4)Shaq
5)Russell

[mabber]

Oh are you talking about the year that in the final game of the season, everyone else on the Spurs took the night off offensively so that Drob could score 71 points and beat Shaq? That scoring title?

I like this little note here about that game - In that game, Spurs coach John Lucas had his team commit fouls toward the end of the game to get Robinson more shot attempts allowing him to win the scoring title.

If it's not done within the natural flow of the game, it cheapens the game. Robinson got a cheapened scoring title that year, bottom line.

Like I already said, I'm not interested in trying to detract from how great Robinson was. I really like him alot and thought he was great. But if I'm building a team and I have my choice between Robinson or Shaq at center, I'm taking Shaq every time.

You and just about everyone that is or has ever been a GM. I'm more of a fan of Robinson but I just couldn't see not taking Shaq if starting a team.

[Extra Stout]

No big man could guard Robinson 1 on 1, but when teams had time to scheme against the Spurs in the playoffs and could push Robinson away from the rim, he did not have the polished offensive skills to be efficient enough in the halfcourt offense for the Spurs to beat the best teams.

[Extra Stout]

And to think...Mario Elie had the balls to call them soft that year.
Mario remembered playing all those DRob-led teams throughout the 1990's.

[RC's Boss]

And the titles before that?
Magic, Michael, and Bird

[Spurminator]

one of a few articles i've found about it.

Could you post some of the others, because that's the only one I found. Not saying you're lying, I'm actually interested in reading more.

[slayermin]

As usual, Bill Russell is way overrated.

My top ten.
Kareem
Wilt
Shaq
Hakeem
Admiral
Moses Malone
Russell
Walton
Mikan
Cowens

[mabber]

1. Chamberlain
2. Abdul-Jabbar
3. Russell
4. Olajuwon
5. Robinson
6. O'Neal

i have no idea how good a player malone was, but these are the guys i think you could say are better than robinson. although i think oneal, robinson, and olajuwon are all about even. olajuwon gets overhyped just because of that one playoff series (you know which i'm talking about)

Malone was a dominant rebounder and could score with the best of him. His defense was average. He really wasn't tall enough or able to jump very high to be a good shot blocker. He was all about strength and positioning.

[SilverPlayer]

I can't believe I'm defending Shaq but it is clear that Shaq is better career wise than David Robinson. Any non homer would see it.


I'd take Dave any day of the week over Shaq. A healthy young David's game would school the best of shaq's game all game long. David was way the hell too quick when he was young to be stopped by Shaq. The early games are the best you can go on even though Shaq's not at his peak yet, he was still breaking rims. And Shaq always ended up on the losing side of the game, with a talented Orlando team.

[whottt]

Mario remembered playing all those DRob-led teams throughout the 1990's.


That's not what he said after they won. In fact he said just the opposite.

[dallaskd]

amare?

[Extra Stout]

I'd take Dave any day of the week over Shaq. A healthy young David's game would school the best of shaq's game all game long. David was way the hell too quick when he was young to be stopped by Shaq. The early games are the best you can go on even though Shaq's not at his peak yet, he was still breaking rims. And Shaq always ended up on the losing side of the game, with a talented Orlando team.
You are correct that Shaq would have been too slow to stay in front of Robinson when David faced the basket with the hall. Karl Malone also was too slow to do that.

If only double-teams had been outlawed in the 1990's, the Spurs would have racked up titles.

[dbreiden83080]

As usual, Bill Russell is way overrated.

My top ten.
Kareem
Wilt
Shaq
Hakeem
Admiral
Moses Malone
Russell
Walton
Mikan
Cowens

He is totally overated. Russell played on the best team for a decade he had so much around him. People always say he beat Wilt all the time in the big game. Wilt would own Russell just like he did everyone else, dropping 40 and 50 on him with regularity. Wilt wins every bit the titles that Russell did with the same people around him. He was the most dominant force the game has ever known.

[slayermin]

Olajuwon was a monster on both ends and had an incredible low post game. If you think the West was strong now, it was just as strong in the early and mid 90's.

[Extra Stout]

That's not what he said after they won. In fact he said just the opposite.
The opposite of what?

He reiterated that when he was a Rocket, he thought the Spurs were soft and heartless.

Of course we all know that wasn't true of the 1999 team. Part of that was because guys like Elie and Kersey lit a fire under Dave's ass and held him accountable.

[SilverPlayer]

You are correct that Shaq would have been too slow to stay in front of Robinson when David faced the basket with the hall. Karl Malone also was too slow to do that.

If only double-teams had been outlawed in the 1990's, the Spurs would have racked up titles.


Or you give David a Hornacek instead of Del Negro and you got yourself a title team.

[dbreiden83080]

Olajuwon was a monster on both ends and had an incredible low post game. If you think the West was strong now, it was just as strong in the early and mid 90's.

Well there was not that one big team out there though that you had to get bye. In the east in the 90's it was always the Bulls year in and year out. Knicks and Pacers were always very strong as was Orlando when Shaq was there.

[whottt]

No big man could guard Robinson 1 on 1, but when teams had time to scheme against the Spurs in the playoffs and could push Robinson away from the rim, he did not have the polished offensive skills to be efficient enough in the halfcourt offense for the Spurs to beat the best teams.


Yeah...Drob should have lead the NBA in 3 point shooting like Hakeem did when he finally started winning titles. Fucking choker. ..Hakeem taught Elie and Horry how to shoot threes.

[Extra Stout]

He is totally overated. Russell played on the best team for a decade he had so much around him. People always say he beat Wilt all the time in the big game. Wilt would own Russell just like he did everyone else, dropping 40 and 50 on him with regularity. Wilt wins every bit the titles that Russell did with the same people around him. He was the most dominant force the game has ever known.
Wilt was not always willing to sacrifice his statistics for the good of the team.

[whottt]

AJ + Vinny > Magic, Oscar, Kobe, Wade, Penny, Cassell, Drexler, Pippen, Manu Parker...

Got it.

[Extra Stout]

Yeah...Drob should have lead the NBA in 3 point shooting like Hakeem did when he finally started winning titles. Fucking choker. ..Hakeem taught Elie and Horry how to shoot threes.
Well, I guess one guy was better at creating opportunities for teammates out of double-teams than the other was.

Interesting how much better the Spurs got at the inside-out game once it was Duncan in the post rather than Robinson...

[whottt]

The opposite of what?

He reiterated that when he was a Rocket, he thought the Spurs were soft and heartless.

Of course we all know that wasn't true of the 1999 team. Part of that was because guys like Elie and Kersey lit a fire under Dave's ass and held him accountable.


Good thing Mario wasn't watching the Series VS LA and Portland that year, he might have concluded Duncan was the soft one.

[mabber]

He is totally overated. Russell played on the best team for a decade he had so much around him. People always say he beat Wilt all the time in the big game. Wilt would own Russell just like he did everyone else, dropping 40 and 50 on him with regularity. Wilt wins every bit the titles that Russell did with the same people around him. He was the most dominant force the game has ever known.

I agree with Wilt being the best center but it's funny how he gets a pass on not being able to shoot free throws but Shaq doesn't. I guess it's because most people on this forum never saw Wilt play (and miss free throws). Also, there's a lot of hate toward Shaq on here for some reason. I only saw Wilt play toward the end of his career. I recall him playing in the NBA finals in '71 I believe when I was 8 years old. That was a great team. Wilt, West, Goodrich, Harrison and I believe it was the year that Elgin Baylor retired either before hand or during it.

[Extra Stout]

Kenny Smith + Vernon Maxwell = borderline Hall-of-Famers

[bdictjames]

Walton works for ESPN, whatd you guys expect?

[whottt]

Interesting how much better the Spurs got at the inside-out game once it was Duncan in the post rather than Robinson...

Yeah...because Elie couldn't hit outside shots with the Rockets...


But yeah...you are right, I keep forgetting that Duncan is 2-0 against Karl Malone.

[LAKERS4LIFE]

Andrew Bynum

The Next Great Center

http://www.nba.com/media/bynum_180_060116.jpg

[dbreiden83080]

Wilt was not always willing to sacrifice his statistics for the good of the team.

He did not have the people around him that Russell did. Wilt had little choice but to take it on his shoulders and be the man all the time. Russell just had to play great D and rebound for most of his career because he had the best team around him for a decade and Wilt did win 2 titles lets not forget.

[Extra Stout]

Good thing Mario wasn't watching the Series VS LA and Portland that year, he might have concluded Duncan was the soft one.
Yes, I clearly remember Duncan gutlessly scoring 70 points in the two games in LA, and outscoring the Lakers by himself for extended stretches of games.

I suppose because he scored 5 points in one blowout game in Portland, he should give back his Finals MVP.

How'd Dave do his second year in the league? Oh yeah, he lost in the first round against a team featuring monsters like Alton Lister and Jim Petersen up front.

[whottt]

Good thing Shaq, Hakeem and Kareem were never worried about numbers like Wilt...just think, if Wilt hadn't cared about numbers he might have lead the NBA in assists or something.

Next thing people will be saying is if only Wilt could have shot FT's as good as Russell.

[Ockham]

Though there is admittedly some minority dissent in this thread, I'm surprised at how the majority seems to think that Chamberlain is the obvious pick at #1. I'll admit that statistically, he's untouchable, but we know that stats aren't everything. (Compare Karl Malone and Tim Duncan, for example.)

I don't think it's obviously false to put Chamberlain at #1, but it's certainly not an easy choice: Abdul-Jabbar won 6 MVP's and 6 titles, 2 finals MVP's, and was a perrennial first-team All NBA and All-Defense member. And his stats aren't anything to sneeze at, for that matter.

Plus, Jabbar let others flourish around him, while Chamberlain was notoriously selfish---the biographies (and even autobiography) I've read paints Chamberlain as cartoonishly self-centered and a locker-room cancer. Both had good players around them for much of their career, but Jabbar capitalized much more. Jabbar was much better in the clutch. And Jabbar was a decent free throw shooter, which meant you could go to him when the game was on the line and not fear the hack attack, unlike with Chamberlain.

I still understand if you want to rank Chamberlain as #1, but it's still very much a live debate, not an open and shut case.

I'll say this: were I starting a team and I had to pick one of these in their prime, I'd pick Kareem.

[whottt]

Yes, I clearly remember Duncan gutlessly scoring 70 points in the two games in LA, and outscoring the Lakers by himself for extended stretches of games.

I suppose because he scored 5 points in one blowout game in Portland, he should give back his Finals MVP.


And you evidentally don't remember the Spurs having to run the offense through Robinson because Duncan was ineffective against the D. It was kind of like 2001...almost.

[ambchang]

Shaq didn't hit his prime until he was with the Lakers.
That is a fallacy. Shaq's prime spanned from 94 to 03, peaking in 2000, he simply got better teammates and coaching after 99.
I would say his passing got better after 95, 96, but he has always been a tough matchup.
His game has always been overrated some bit, yes he was dominant, and yes he was one of the toughest matchup in the history of the league, but he rarely gives 100% (see his playoffs), is only about average on defense, and was never as dominant a rebounder and scorer as he should / could be. How can a man of his agility, size and atheleticism only lead the league in scoring once, shot blocking zero times and rebounding zero times?

[monosylab1k]

Andrew Bynum

The Next Great Center

Maybe so. But will he be better than this guy? I doubt it.

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/4151/greg20odenll7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[whottt]

Offensively? Oden isn't in Bynum's league and likely will never be.

[ambchang]

Only the biggest spurs homer would put Robinson over Shaq. As for the all time list I can't make considering I haven't watched the games way back than. Olajuwon though is overrated as he had 2 or 3 great years and than faded while Shaq has been a constant.
Have you even watched Robinson and Hakeem in their primes? Because you have, you wouldn't say that. Shaq is not the MDE, because he wasn't even the most dominant throughout his career, Jordan and Hakeem were both more dominant than Shaq was.
Shaq just benefitted from having face off guys like ..... who did he face at his so-called prime?

[LAKERS4LIFE]

That is a fallacy. Shaq's prime spanned from 94 to 03, peaking in 2000, he simply got better teammates and coaching after 99.
I would say his passing got better after 95, 96, but he has always been a tough matchup.
His game has always been overrated some bit, yes he was dominant, and yes he was one of the toughest matchup in the history of the league, but he rarely gives 100% (see his playoffs), is only about average on defense, and was never as dominant a rebounder and scorer as he should / could be. How can a man of his agility, size and atheleticism only lead the league in scoring once, shot blocking zero times and rebounding zero times?


SHAQ = 4 Titles

[dbreiden83080]

Have you even watched Robinson and Hakeem in their primes? Because you have, you wouldn't say that. Shaq is not the MDE, because he wasn't even the most dominant throughout his career, Jordan and Hakeem were both more dominant than Shaq was.
Shaq just benefitted from having face off guys like ..... who did he face at his so-called prime?

This is true because when Shaq was on his best Laker teams. The best of the prior Era, D-Rob, Ewing, Hakeem were no longer in their primes.

[mavsfan1000]

Have you even watched Robinson and Hakeem in their primes? Because you have, you wouldn't say that. Shaq is not the MDE, because he wasn't even the most dominant throughout his career, Jordan and Hakeem were both more dominant than Shaq was.
Shaq just benefitted from having face off guys like ..... who did he face at his so-called prime?
Yes I watched them in their primes.

[Cry Havoc]

It's sad to me that a player like Shaq could be considered a top 5 Center All-Time.

He cannot hit a shot outside of 8 feet. He was over 60% FTs one time in his career, if memory serves. As was said earlier, he has never led the league in rebounding or shot blocking. For someone who's vaunted himself as MDE, it strikes me as a bit odd that a 7'1" with the size and athleticism to box out anyone was not leading the league every year in defense.

Instead, Shaq's career consists of nothing else but being the heaviest player on the court, someone who can literally knock over the opposing team's center time after time and dunk the ball. Does he get called for a charge? Nope, because more often than not he'd get an and-1 on the play. Shaq has no appreciable skills other than being immensely huge center with good footwork and above average passing. But hey, at least he's really, really lazy.

"If Shaq was 6'3" he would be a starting Point Guard in this league." - Bill Walton

[whottt]

Shaq's good at one thing...high PCT shooting, which is offset considerably by his piss poor ft shooting.

[Bob Lanier]

I can't believe I'm defending Shaq but it is clear that Shaq is better career wise than David Robinson. Any non homer would see it.
No kidding.

Kareem, Wilt, and Hakeem are pretty clearly the best three. If you wanted a second tier after that, I'd include Russell, Shaq, and pre-NBA Sabonis. Then there are 10 or 15 other players you could make a case for the final four spots (including Duncan and Robinson), and I don't have any particular interest in selecting them.

[whottt]

If it was so easy to score 50 ppg in Wilt's era...how come no one else did it?

How come no one did it before?

How come no one has done it since?

[Bob Lanier]

Now there's a loaded question if I've ever heard one.

[whottt]

You'd think someone else would have at least mixed in a 40ppg season....

[peskypesky]

1. Kareem
2. Chamberlain
3. Russell
4. O'Neal
5. Olajuwon
6. Malone
7. Robinson
8. Reed
9. Walton
10. Parrish

[whottt]

Why not put Russell at #1?

Everyone forgets at how talented he was at pulling 5+HOF teamates out of his ass every year of his career...

[mardigan]

If we are talking pure talent, its hard to argue that Hakeem wasnt the most skilled center of all time, followed by D-Rob and Kareem, no one had ever seen big men with the skills they have. Shaq and Wilt were just dominating beaststhat were just to big and strong for anyone to stop, doesnt equate to talent. Russell played on Super teams without much oposition, but its hard to argue with 11 rings and a college national title.

[Spurminator]

Everyone forgets at how talented he was at pulling 5+HOF teamates out of his ass every year of his career...

Chicken/Egg?

[Bob Lanier]

Tommy Point to whottt for bringing up the magnificent Sam Jones and Frank Ramsey.

[mardigan]

If it was so easy to score 50 ppg in Wilt's era...how come no one else did it?

How come no one did it before?

How come no one has done it since?

Same reason no one has ever averaged a triple double a game like Big O, they were better than everyone else

[Ockham]

If we are talking pure talent, its hard to argue that Hakeem wasnt the most skilled center of all time, followed by D-Rob and Kareem, no one had ever seen big men with the skills they have. Shaq and Wilt were just dominating beaststhat were just to big and strong for anyone to stop, doesnt equate to talent. Russell played on Super teams without much oposition, but its hard to argue with 11 rings and a college national title.

Just a note: Chamberlain was an absolute freak of an athlete. He was ridiculously fast, strong, well-conditioned; he had, if I remember correctly, some state track records in high school (including high jump and shot put, perhaps in addition to running events); and he had a fade away and finger roll in addition to a power game. He wasn't the 1960's version of Shaq.

[whottt]

Chicken/Egg?


Let's see...Bob Cousy...nope, he was Bob Cousy before Russell got there.

Sam and KC Jones...uh nope.

Bill Sharman and Ed McCauley? Uh nope.

Havlicek...well I guess if Russell was so good Havlicek won a title without him...


Boston not only had $$$ but they also had immense power and the ability to leverage other teams out of players...

[Agloco]

I'm STILL waiting for some Jack Sikma or Manute Bol lovin'........................

Where the hell is it? :donkey :donkey

[peskypesky]

1. Kareem
2. Chamberlain
3. Russell
4. O'Neal
5. Olajuwon
6. Malone
7. Robinson
8. Reed
9. Walton
10. Parrish

As a Spurs fan, I HATED Shaq a few years ago. HATED! But you know what, it's because I hated his sheer physical dominance and the fact that he was on the enemy team. With his 4 rings, he now goes into the elite category of the top 4. I remember watching him in his prime, and his power, athleticism, speed and ferocity were awesome.

Malone goes ahead of Robinson for similar reasons, and also for longevity and his Finals MVP. Walton would've been higher but injuries came a-calling.

Reed had two Finals MVP's, so I can't see how anyone could leave him off this list.

And Parrish has just always been under-rated.

Ewing? No rings....Sorry....

[Bob Lanier]

Jack Sikma compares favorably to KG and David Robinson as an impact player.

[Bob Lanier]

Ewing? No rings....Sorry....
Beno Udrih: one ring.
John Stockton: zero rings.

Advantage: Beno!

[whottt]

Chauncy Billups = 1 Finals MVP

Ben Wallace = 0

Billups > Wallace

[Obstructed_View]

Yep. I also watched titles while Hakeem got championships. Lucky for Hakeem that the bulls didn't have Jordan or Hakeem would be ringless.
Goddamn dude you are so fucking stupid it defies the imagination. This is the second completely idiotic post you've made. Pointing out that Hakeem went downhill in his 13th season in the league was fucking GENIUS.

[Sec24Row7]

Bill Russel doesnt belong on that list... Niether do Walton or Mikan

[peskypesky]

Beno Udrih: one ring.
John Stockton: zero rings.

Advantage: Beno!

Are you just mad that I left you off the list, Bob? I really wanted to include you and Nate Thurmond, but couldn't fit you in to the top 10. But you were great in your prime.

[Sec24Row7]

Russel is up there because of rings... some of which came with 8 teams in the league...

Mikan the same...

Walton... because he has an office down the hall...

None of them deserve to be ranked where they are.

Russell was 6'9".

If Ben Wallace was by some freak rip in time was put in his place, then HE would be considered a top 3 center of all time.

[exstatic]

And the titles before that?
Oh, so NOW it's about titles?

[exstatic]

amare?
:lol:rollin:lol:rollin:lol:rollin:lol:rollin:lol
:lol:rollin:lol:rollin:lol:rollin:lol:rollin:lol

[exstatic]

Dave's all around game is SO much better than Shaq's ever was that it isn't funny. Shaq does one thing: use his immense girth to run over people. If there was anyone on the list that had 2-3 good seasons, he's the one. A huge chunk of this late career is without any other dominant center playing against him.

[polandprzem]

Russel is up there because of rings... some of which came with 8 teams in the league...

Mikan the same...

Walton... because he has an office down the hall...

None of them deserve to be ranked where they are.

Russell was 6'9".

If Ben Wallace was by some freak rip in time was put in his place, then HE would be considered a top 3 center of all time.

WTF?


If you would put LeBron James in a time machine and send him back to 1955 (McFlY) he would be considered the best player in history period!


IMO Russ should be at no 1 spot.Team sport.

[mardigan]

WTF?


If you would put LeBron James in a time machine and send him back to 1955 (McFlY) he would be considered the best player in history period!


IMO Russ should be at no 1 spot.Team sport.

He would be called Oscar Robertson

[mardigan]

Bill Russel doesnt belong on that list... Niether do Walton or Mikan

Yea right, a guy that averaged 15 points and 22 rebounds with 11 rings doesnt belong on the list. Not to mention that they didnt even keep stats on blocks back then, or he would probably hold that record as well

[peskypesky]

Yea right, a guy that averaged 15 points and 22 rebounds with 11 rings doesnt belong on the list. Not to mention that they didnt even keep stats on blocks back then, or he would probably hold that record as well

agree

[whottt]

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EPF/is_n23_v97/ai_20454706

one of a few articles i've found about it. Not wikipedia. that one was written in 1998. if you'd like more i'll post them.

There's even an article written in Robinson's own words saying that the entire focus of the Spurs game was to put the scoring title out of reach for Shaq. And if the team is napping the entire game and then starts foul in the end to lengthen the game, 17 fouls could be alot. like i said, a cheap way to get the scoring title.

Again, I was always a big fan of Robinson, so being in a debate where I'm trying to criticize him isn't exactly something I want to do. But whatever.




The entire Spurs team totaled 17 fouls in that game. Total...for the entire fucking game. Not a single Spurs player had more than 3 fouls.

17 fouls is an enormously low total....

Additionally, you are flat out lying about David Robinson's comments about that game...he says the Clippers were fighting like hell, and he had the scratches on his arms to prove it...

And guys guarding him, one of them fouled out, another had 5 fouls, and another had 4 fouls.

[mardigan]

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/8895/71sco.htm

In this he does say that the team wanted him to get the scoring title, but like Whott said he had to fight for his points.

[whottt]

Box score from David's 71 point game:




San Antonio (112) @ LA Clippers (97) 04/24/94


San Antonio (112)

POS MIN FGM-FGA FTM-FTA TGM-TGA ORB-TRB AS ST BL TO PF TP
Cummings,Terry F 22 2-10 1- 2 0- 0 6-12 2 0 0 1 0 5
Rodman,Dennis F 36 4- 5 0- 0 0- 0 3-17 3 1 1 2 1 8
Robinson,David C 44 26-41 18-25 1- 2 4-14 5 0 2 8 2 71
Del Negro,Vinny G 26 1- 3 0- 0 0- 0 0- 2 6 4 0 2 2 2
Daniels,Lloyd G 25 2- 7 0- 0 0- 2 0- 2 1 2 1 3 2 4
Knight,Negele 24 3- 6 0- 0 0- 0 0- 0 5 0 1 0 2 6
Floyd,Sleepy 23 1- 5 1- 4 1- 2 1- 5 6 0 0 4 3 4
Carr,Antoine 24 2- 2 0- 0 0- 0 0- 1 0 1 0 0 1 4
Reid,J.R. 12 2- 6 2- 2 0- 0 3- 4 0 0 0 1 2 6
Haley,Jack 4 1- 2 0- 0 0- 0 0- 1 0 0 0 0 2 2
TOTALS 240 44-87 22-33 2- 6 17-58 28 8 5 21 17 112

FG %: .506 FT %: .667 Three %: .333 Team Rebs: 10 Team TOs: 0


LA Clippers (97)

POS MIN FGM-FGA FTM-FTA TGM-TGA ORB-TRB AS ST BL TO PF TP
Wilkins,Dominique F 21 6-17 3- 4 1- 3 0- 1 2 1 0 1 2 16
Vaught,Loy F 25 7-10 2- 2 0- 0 2- 4 1 0 0 0 4 16
Spencer,Elmore C 5 0- 0 0- 0 0- 0 0- 1 0 0 1 1 2 0
Jackson,Mark G 16 1- 6 0- 0 0- 1 2- 3 6 2 0 0 0 2
Harper,Ron G 20 2- 6 0- 0 0- 0 0- 3 0 1 1 4 0 4
Martin,Bob 20 1- 2 0- 0 0- 0 0- 4 1 0 2 1 4 2
Outlaw,Charles 27 2- 5 0- 0 0- 0 3- 6 0 1 3 1 6 4
Dehere,Terry 28 10-17 4- 4 2- 3 2- 3 2 1 0 2 0 26
Grant,Gary 14 2- 4 0- 0 0- 0 0- 1 4 2 0 2 0 4
Ellis,Harold 27 6-15 2- 4 0- 1 1- 6 0 2 0 0 5 14
Williams,John 19 1- 4 0- 0 0- 2 0- 4 2 2 0 2 2 2
Woods,Randy 18 1- 9 4- 6 1- 8 2- 3 5 2 0 2 3 7
TOTALS 240 39-95 15-20 4-18 12-39 23 14 7 16 28 97

FG %: .411 FT %: .750 Three %: .222 Team Rebs: 8 Team TOs: 0

San Antonio 20 17 32 43 -- 112
LA Clippers 19 16 32 30 -- 97

Officials: HOLLINS, MIDDLETON, FINE
Attendance: 16005 Time of Game: 2:09



Now here's the box score from Shaq's game played later that same day...



New Jersey (91) @ Orlando (120) 04/24/94


New Jersey (91)

POS MIN FGM-FGA FTM-FTA TGM-TGA ORB-TRB AS ST BL TO PF TP
Brown,P.J. F 17 2- 6 0- 0 0- 0 3- 4 0 1 0 0 3 4
Coleman,Derrick F 30 10-15 4- 6 1- 2 1- 5 7 0 2 3 2 25
Benjamin,Benoit C 22 3- 9 0- 0 0- 0 1- 2 0 0 1 2 3 6
Edwards,Kevin G 24 2- 6 0- 0 0- 1 0- 1 3 3 0 1 1 4
Anderson,Kenny G 25 6-12 3- 5 2- 4 1- 3 8 3 1 4 4 17
Morris,Chris 26 0- 3 0- 0 0- 0 4- 8 2 1 2 1 1 0
Williams,Jayson 21 1- 6 4- 6 0- 0 1- 5 0 2 0 0 3 6
Wesley,David 18 1- 5 0- 0 0- 1 0- 2 3 2 1 5 0 2
Gilliam,Armon 19 2- 6 2- 6 0- 0 3- 6 0 0 0 1 2 6
Newman,Johnny 23 4- 8 2- 2 1- 2 2- 2 0 0 1 0 3 11
Mahorn,Rick 7 2- 2 1- 2 0- 0 1- 2 0 0 1 1 0 5
Walters,Rex 8 2- 5 1- 2 0- 0 0- 0 2 0 0 1 0 5
TOTALS 240 35-83 17-29 4-10 17-40 25 12 9 19 22 91

FG %: .422 FT %: .586 Three %: .400 Team Rebs: 9 Team TOs: 0


Orlando (120)

POS MIN FGM-FGA FTM-FTA TGM-TGA ORB-TRB AS ST BL TO PF TP
Krystkowiak,Larry F 28 4- 8 1- 2 0- 0 1- 2 0 1 0 6 2 9
Scott,Dennis F 37 7-14 4- 4 2- 6 0- 2 7 1 0 1 1 20
O'Neal,Shaquille C 41 12-21 8-14 0- 0 5-22 2 0 2 1 2 32
Anderson,Nick G 35 8-16 2- 2 3- 8 3- 4 5 5 0 4 2 21
Hardaway,Anfernee G 34 4-10 4- 8 0- 2 2- 7 8 3 1 4 1 12
Avent,Anthony 19 1- 4 2- 2 0- 0 2- 7 2 0 1 2 3 4
Skiles,Scott 14 3- 6 0- 0 1- 2 0- 1 4 1 0 0 1 7
Bowie,Anthony 13 0- 3 0- 0 0- 0 5- 6 1 1 1 1 3 0
Royal,Donald 11 3- 5 3- 4 0- 0 2- 2 1 0 0 0 3 9
Green,Litterial 5 2- 4 0- 0 0- 0 1- 2 1 0 0 0 0 4
Hammink,Geert 3 1- 3 0- 0 0- 0 1- 1 1 0 0 0 1 2
TOTALS 240 45-94 24-36 6-18 22-56 32 12 5 19 19 120

FG %: .479 FT %: .667 Three %: .333 Team Rebs: 16 Team TOs: 0

New Jersey 27 20 23 21 -- 91
Orlando 36 22 28 34 -- 120

Officials: SALVATORE, MADDEN, KINSEY
Attendance: 15291 Time of Game: 2:05



Please note...Shaq's team commited 2 more fouls than DRob's...they played after Drob...Shaq didn't score half of what David did...inspite of his team commiting 2 more fouls.

This is the kind of fucking bullshit people always do to David Robinson.

Shaq is the one that wanted to win a scoring title...David didn't give a shit about winning one.






Anything else you want to add?


And there's nothing loaded about David's totals either...

He shot over 50%...too bad he was having a shitty day from the FT line...and too bad about those 8 to's...

[polandprzem]

He would be called Oscar Robertson
Yup

cause Oscar had such power and leap to demolish the defense

[mardigan]

I was just looking at Big O s stats, they are absolutely staggering

[polandprzem]

I was just looking at Big O s stats, they are absolutely staggering

and?

[polandprzem]

Are here people that want to compare the stats through ages?

Then :lol

[mardigan]

And nothing, just talking

[mardigan]

Are here people that want to compare the stats through ages?

Then :lol

Why wouldnt you compare stats through the ages, basketball hasnt changed much since the late 60s, athletic ability included

[polandprzem]

Why wouldnt you compare stats through the ages, basketball hasnt changed much since the late 60s, athletic ability included

Including athletic ability?

The wtf of a day


Yup basketball hasn't changed - the teams scoring the same amount of points. There were fastbreaks before Auerbach and Mikan was an average player considerating stats.

[polandprzem]

btw - who was the first powerdunker?

And how much power dunks were in 60s and now?

[polandprzem]

BTW - havew you seen those games? (60's)

[mardigan]

So your trying to tell me Wilt would suck if he played now, that Dr J. wouldnt be able to jump all of the sudden, right...
And Mikan didnt play in the late 60s.

[mardigan]

BTW - havew you seen those games? (60's)

Only highlights considering Im only 25, but I do know that Wilt could still dominate 90% of the centers in the league right now, and that players like Erving, Robertson, Unseld, Reed, Archibald and McAdoo would still have been pretty damn good no matter what era they had played in

[polandprzem]

So your trying to tell me Wilt would suck if he played now, that Dr J. wouldnt be able to jump all of the sudden, right...
And Mikan didnt play in the late 60s.

No I'm just saying that if you would put players like james or Shaq into a time machine and send them to, for instance 1955 they would dominate the game game as nobody would do (from the '50 '60) in their time.

[polandprzem]

Only highlights considering Im only 25, but I do know that Wilt could still dominate 90% of the centers in the league right now, and that players like Erving, Robertson, Unseld, Reed, Archibald and McAdoo would still have been pretty damn good no matter what era they had played in

Would they consider to be as good as they were? (legacy wise)

[mardigan]

No I'm just saying that if you would put players like james or Shaq into a time machine and send them to, for instance 1955 they would dominate the game game as nobody would do (from the '50 '60) in their time.

Oh, well that of course I agree with you on, my whole point even bringing Oscar up in the first place was that I really think there are certain players that play this game that would have dominated no matter what. And the reason I brought up his stats was just because I had never really looked at them and they blew my mind

[mardigan]

Would they consider to be as good as they were? (legacy wise)

Maybe not all of them, and Wilt wouldnt be putting up 50 and 25 every game, but I think its reasonable that evne if he had played now, I would think he would put up half of those #, which would still probably put him in the hof. And maybe I went a little overboard saying that the game hasnt changed much, because overall no doubt the athletes have all gotten stronger and faster. But I do think there are certain players (like Dr J and Tiny Archibald) that still would have been the shit now

[polandprzem]

nope - it is a matter of training, medicine, basketball experience and all that making the players much better physicly.

As for talent, you can't measure that

[mardigan]

Yea your right about that, doctors and trainers, even equipment is light years ahead of what it was, so I guess, your right, Im wrong

[hitmanyr2k]

Dave's all around game is SO much better than Shaq's ever was that it isn't funny. Shaq does one thing: use his immense girth to run over people. If there was anyone on the list that had 2-3 good seasons, he's the one. A huge chunk of this late career is without any other dominant center playing against him.

A differing opinion....

"People think it's all power with Shaq, but they're wrong," says 86-year-old Pete Newell, the big-man guru who coached against Wilt and who schooled Shaq at his offseason camp in the early '90s. "Here's what I've seen [O'Neal] do in one game: Bank off the glass. Little lob hook in the paint. Step-back move on the baseline. Quick spin move when he comes out on the other side to shoot. And a neat step-through move when he was doubled or tripled. You go over the history of centers and can you remember anyone, except maybe Hakeem Olajuwon, showing all that? And Hakeem didn't have the power game. I don't like to rate players according to who's best, but none of the great centers had Shaq's moves and counters, and none of them, including Wilt, had his strength."



http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/jack_mccallum/news/2002/06/12/insider/

[polandprzem]

so yes Mikan belongs to that list

[polandprzem]

Yea your right about that, doctors and trainers, even equipment is light years ahead of what it was, so I guess, your right, Im wrong

:wow

:worthy:

[mardigan]

But I wasnt talking about all that, just pure talent translating to todays game

[timvp]

If I'm rating the top ten centers of all-time, there are two ways you can do it. You can just look at what the center overall accomplishments were, which would reward straight up championships and team domination and have players like Russell, Kareem, Mikan and Shaq at the top of the list.

And then you could list the best centers by the most talented. In this, you'd have to take into accounts aspects a player can't control (teammates, coaches, owners, injuries, market size, etc.) and examine why the players were either successful or unsuccessful at winning championships. If you do this, I think players like Chamberlain, Robinson, Olajuwon, Thurmond and maybe even Walton come out looking better.

In the first scenario, I'd probably put the top five as:
1. Russell
2. Abdul-Jabbar
3. O'Neal
4. Mikan
5. Olajuwon

In the second scenario, I'd rank them:
1. Chamberlain
2a. Olajuwon
2b. Robinson
4. O'Neal
5. Abdul-Jabbar

Russell might be the most accomplished winner in sports history, but he played with so many Hall of Famers that you have to take that into account. The Celtics wouldn't have been nearly as successful without him, but Russell needed the Hall of Famers to win championships, as well.

Abdul-Jabbar was great, but playing with the arguably the two best point guards of all-time has to be taken into account. O'Neal is dominant, but then again, he had the best shooting guard in the league on his team in each of his four championships.

On pure talent, I think easily the top three talented centers were Chamberlain, Olajuwon and Robinson. If you would have put any of these three players into situations where they played with multiple Hall of Famers or with the best guards in the league, they would have dominated. Chamberlain's teammates could rarely compare to what Russell had. Olajuwon probably had the best teammates of the three, but he had a lot of years where he had no talent around him. Robinson had the least talent around him in his prime than perhaps any dominant bigman in history, but did win when the talent (read: Duncan, Tim) arrived.

[Bob Lanier]

Why wouldnt you compare stats through the ages, basketball hasnt changed much since the late 60s
The style and pace certainly has. The game has slowed down as defensive strategy has evolved and improved, among other things.

[mardigan]

The style and pace certainly has. The game has slowed down as defensive strategy has evolved and improved, among other things.

I know I already said that I was wrong about this statement. All i was trying to say was that there were certain players of yester year that would still be great in todays game

[hitmanyr2k]

If I'm rating the top ten centers of all-time, there are two ways you can do it. You can just look at what the center overall accomplishments were, which would reward straight up championships and team domination and have players like Russell, Kareem, Mikan and Shaq at the top of the list.

And then you could list the best centers by the most talented. In this, you'd have to take into accounts aspects a player can't control (teammates, coaches, owners, injuries, market size, etc.) and examine why the players were either successful or unsuccessful at winning championships. If you do this, I think players like Chamberlain, Robinson, Olajuwon, Thurmond and maybe even Walton come out looking better.

In the first scenario, I'd probably put the top five as:
1. Russell
2. Abdul-Jabbar
3. O'Neal
4. Mikan
5. Olajuwon

In the second scenario, I'd rank them:
1. Chamberlain
2a. Olajuwon
2b. Robinson
4. O'Neal
5. Abdul-Jabbar

Russell might be the most accomplished winner in sports history, but he played with so many Hall of Famers that you have to take that into account. The Celtics wouldn't have been nearly as successful without him, but Russell needed the Hall of Famers to win championships, as well.

Abdul-Jabbar was great, but playing with the arguably the two best point guards of all-time has to be taken into account. O'Neal is dominant, but then again, he had the best shooting guard in the league on his team in each of his four championships.


I was with you until about here. In Shaq's defense Kobe Bryant didn't really blow up until the 2nd title run. That first title was mostly a result of Shaq's dominance...he was a monster putting up 30+ point and 20+ rebound (sometimes 40 and 20) games while Kobe was pretty much an inconsistent rising star that mixed good games with horrible ones.

[mardigan]

He averaged 21 points, 4 assists and 4 rebounds their first title run, pretty decent. The next year he blew up though, so I guess 3 out of 4 championships he had the best shooting guard

[polandprzem]

If I'm rating the top ten centers of all-time, there are two ways you can do it. You can just look at what the center overall accomplishments were, which would reward straight up championships and team domination and have players like Russell, Kareem, Mikan and Shaq at the top of the list.

And then you could list the best centers by the most talented. In this, you'd have to take into accounts aspects a player can't control (teammates, coaches, owners, injuries, market size, etc.) and examine why the players were either successful or unsuccessful at winning championships. If you do this, I think players like Chamberlain, Robinson, Olajuwon, Thurmond and maybe even Walton come out looking better.

In the first scenario, I'd probably put the top five as:
1. Russell
2. Abdul-Jabbar
3. O'Neal
4. Mikan
5. Olajuwon

In the second scenario, I'd rank them:
1. Chamberlain
2a. Olajuwon
2b. Robinson
4. O'Neal
5. Abdul-Jabbar

Russell might be the most accomplished winner in sports history, but he played with so many Hall of Famers that you have to take that into account. The Celtics wouldn't have been nearly as successful without him, but Russell needed the Hall of Famers to win championships, as well.

Abdul-Jabbar was great, but playing with the arguably the two best point guards of all-time has to be taken into account. O'Neal is dominant, but then again, he had the best shooting guard in the league on his team in each of his four championships.

On pure talent, I think easily the top three talented centers were Chamberlain, Olajuwon and Robinson. If you would have put any of these three players into situations where they played with multiple Hall of Famers or with the best guards in the league, they would have dominated. Chamberlain's teammates could rarely compare to what Russell had. Olajuwon probably had the best teammates of the three, but he had a lot of years where he had no talent around him. Robinson had the least talent around him in his prime than perhaps any dominant bigman in history, but did win when the talent (read: Duncan, Tim) arrived.

Not agreeing on that part about Russ.
Celtics had Auerbach Cousy Sharman and McCauley but were not able to win championship. Russell changed that and they became the best teat in history. Just because of the infuence of Bill leadership.

As for Wilt - how come he lost the Finals against Knicks? with Baylor and west in the lineup. Because he had no such desire to the game as Bill had. He was playing in that decisive game like in a pick up game. All team doid it and Knoicks took advantage of it.

[Agloco]

That is a fallacy. Shaq's prime spanned from 94 to 03, peaking in 2000, he simply got better teammates and coaching after 99.
I would say his passing got better after 95, 96, but he has always been a tough matchup.
His game has always been overrated some bit, yes he was dominant, and yes he was one of the toughest matchup in the history of the league, but he rarely gives 100% (see his playoffs), is only about average on defense, and was never as dominant a rebounder and scorer as he should / could be. How can a man of his agility, size and atheleticism only lead the league in scoring once, shot blocking zero times and rebounding zero times?


Specialists abounded in Shaqs prime time days. Dennis Rodman going off for lord knows how many rebounds per night, Jordan scoring 30+ per night, and Dikembe Mutombo blocking everything in sight for years doesn't exactly make it easy to lead in any category consistently.

Shaq has had solid numbers throughout. Just because he's not number one on a stat sheet more than once doesn't mean a thing.

When was the last time Tim Duncan lead the league in any major statistical category?

[Ockham]

On pure talent, I think easily the top three talented centers were Chamberlain, Olajuwon and Robinson. If you would have put any of these three players into situations where they played with multiple Hall of Famers or with the best guards in the league, they would have dominated. Chamberlain's teammates could rarely compare to what Russell had. Olajuwon probably had the best teammates of the three, but he had a lot of years where he had no talent around him. Robinson had the least talent around him in his prime than perhaps any dominant bigman in history, but did win when the talent (read: Duncan, Tim) arrived.

TIMVP,

I'm a bit of a Russell apologist, so I have to challenge you at least a bit on the Chamberlain statement. Chamberlain played with Thurmond (1 HOF) on the Warriors, Arizin and Gola (2 HOF's) on the Sixers, and West and Baylor (2 HOF's) on the Lakers. That's a fair amount of talent, I'd say, and he had it for much of his career.

An interesting fact: in 1980, at some 35th anniversary celebration of the NBA, the 1966-1967 Sixers were voted the greatest team of all time. They had basically the same team in 1967-1968, but didn't come near their previous success, largely because of Chamberlain's attitude issues (according to biographies). I think we have good reason to doubt that Chamberlain would have won had he switched places with Russell, since by many counts, he was usually more interested in himself than he was in winning. And I think this has to count against a player in "greatest" debates.

But that's just my two cents.

[Agloco]

Jack Sikma compares favorably to KG and David Robinson as an impact player.

Finally........

What about my boy Manute Bol. He's the best 3 point shooter out of all of these fools.

[Sec24Row7]

It's like Blasphemy if you dont say Russel was the greatest player of all time...

NBA Politically correctness dictates it.

When one looks at the greatness of the celtics, you have to look at the era...

The league was so shallow it wasn't even funny.

The celtics had MANY of the best players...

By today's standards?

They had a point guard that couldnt dribble with his left hand, a center that today would be a hustle 4 that MIGHT start on a championship team today and 3 starters that couldnt dunk.

[Cry Havoc]

I think I read somewhere that Wilt's vertical was in the 38-43 inch range. Can anyone confirm this?

[5ToolMan]

Yep. I also watched titles while Hakeem got championships. Lucky for Hakeem that the bulls didn't have Jordan or Hakeem would be ringless.

Another view might say Mike was lucky he did not have to face a team with a true superstar center like Dream in the playoffs, or he would have had much fewer rings. The Rockets with Dream were one of the few teams than more than held their own against the Jordan and Pippin Bulls. I know it was just the regular season, but Dream's Rockets knew how to take it to the weak ass interior Bulls.

[jacobdrj]

On their best days, I'd take Walton over Robinson. Just because he had injuries doesn't mean he wasn't fucking awesome when he wasn't. If lack of injury was important then Parrish or Cookie Monster should be on the list.
You get in to some interesting territory if you do tha woulddda couldda shouldda...

Case-in-point: Sabonis: Had he come into the NBA sooner, he could have completely dominated. But he didn't, and just made Shaq look stupid considering that Sabonis had no knees against him.

Olijuwon is better than Shaq. Shaq never beat O anywhere near his prime. The MDE had someone whom he never dominated.

[monosylab1k]

Offensively? Oden isn't in Bynum's league and likely will never be.

And how would you know that? Remember, he's been playing all season with a fucked up wrist.

[monosylab1k]

Shaq is the one that wanted to win a scoring title...David didn't give a shit about winning one.

Oh really? Then why did Robinson take 41 shots and the next highest on the team had 10? Why did he go out and score 71 points in a meaningless fucking game when every other superstar in the league would be taking it easy and saving themselves for the playoffs? If he was all about the team and sportsmanship, why would he want to show up another team like that?

And Shaq played his final game AFTER Robinson did...if he REALLY was the one that wanted the scoring title, don't you think that HE would have jacked up 40+ shots and tried to beat Robinson's 71? He didn't even put up a fight.

[cornbread]

If you wanted a second tier after that, I'd include Russell, Shaq, and pre-NBA Sabonis.

The young Sabonis does not get enough love.

[Obstructed_View]

Oh really? Then why did Robinson take 41 shots and the next highest on the team had 10? Why did he go out and score 71 points in a meaningless fucking game when every other superstar in the league would be taking it easy and saving themselves for the playoffs? If he was all about the team and sportsmanship, why would he want to show up another team like that?

If the above questions aren't intended to be rhetorical, the answer would be "John Lucas".

[Obstructed_View]

pop should have brought him in 2000.
How would he have gone about doing that, just out of curiosity?

[SRJ]

As usual, Bill Russell is way overrated.

My top ten.
Kareem
Wilt
Shaq
Hakeem
Admiral
Moses Malone
Russell
Walton
Mikan
Cowens

Thank you, slayermin. IIRC, you and I agreed on this point on another Spurs board some time ago and caught all kinds of shit for it.

Bill Russell was great, no doubt, but he played with an entire wing of the Basketball Hall of Fame. Auerbach put together Dream Team after Dream Team back when teams didn't know how to assemble rosters, and Russell's legacy benefitted the most.

If Russell came up today, you'd recognize him as Dennis Rodman without all the nonsense. Now Rodman was great in his way, but would you take him ahead of Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Shaq, Dave, etc.?

Me neither.

[Quasar]

...
<SNIP>
...
In the second scenario, I'd rank them:
1. Chamberlain
2a. Olajuwon
2b. Robinson
4. O'Neal
5. Abdul-Jabbar
...
<SNIP>
...
I thought I was reading a post by Whott! :spin

Hehe I do agree with you all the way though but I'm biased - David Robinson is my favourite player of all time (with Manu a close second!)

[SRJ]

Not agreeing on that part about Russ.
Celtics had Auerbach Cousy Sharman and McCauley but were not able to win championship. Russell changed that and they became the best teat in history. Just because of the infuence of Bill leadership.

As for Wilt - how come he lost the Finals against Knicks? with Baylor and west in the lineup. Because he had no such desire to the game as Bill had. He was playing in that decisive game like in a pick up game. All team doid it and Knoicks took advantage of it.

Well, how did Russell lose 4 out of 5 in the 1967 playoffs to Wilt's team - a team the Celtics took 5 of 9 from during the year? I thought Russell's desire would carry them - or does it matter sometimes that the other team happens to be better?

No, no, you must be right, "attitude" and "desire" are much more important than "talent". Russell's desire must have been lacking in 1967. And his ankle injury in the 1958 Finals was no doubt the result of a desire deficit. Bob Pettit led the NBA in desire in 1958, as we all know, so it's no wonder the Hawks defeated the Celtics and Russell's off-year in desire that season.

[polandprzem]

Well, how did Russell lose 4 out of 5 in the 1967 playoffs to Wilt's team - a team the Celtics took 5 of 9 from during the year? I thought Russell's desire would carry them - or does it matter sometimes that the other team happens to be better?

No, no, you must be right, "attitude" and "desire" are much more important than "talent". Russell's desire must have been lacking in 1967. And his ankle injury in the 1958 Finals was no doubt the result of a desire deficit. Bob Pettit led the NBA in desire in 1958, as we all know, so it's no wonder the Hawks defeated the Celtics and Russell's off-year in desire that season.

Yes Dennis Rodman - no brainer :tu

[johngateswhiteley]

unbelievable...

1. chamberlain
2. olajuwon
3. russell
4. kareem
5. oneal
6. Robinson
7. malone

...after that i don't care.

[Don Quixote]

LOL at Scoop Jackson. He has Hakeem as #2 and Robinson not even in his top 10.

Scoop Jackson is of no consequence. He's not worth reading.

The only writers on Page 2 worth my time are Bill Simmons and Gregg Easterbrook. They're both liberals, but at least they are original and funny, and interesting. Jason Whitlock was great, too, until he got upset over something stupid that Scoop Jackson wrote.

I'm with Simmons on the issue, however. It's impossible to intelligently rank the all-time greatest because of the different eras involved. As he writes, "you mean to say that Hakeem wouldn't have averaged 45-25 in 1962?" Shoot, David would have dominated that era himself.

[Don Quixote]

Well, how did Russell lose 4 out of 5 in the 1967 playoffs to Wilt's team - a team the Celtics took 5 of 9 from during the year? I thought Russell's desire would carry them - or does it matter sometimes that the other team happens to be better?

No, no, you must be right, "attitude" and "desire" are much more important than "talent". Russell's desire must have been lacking in 1967. And his ankle injury in the 1958 Finals was no doubt the result of a desire deficit. Bob Pettit led the NBA in desire in 1958, as we all know, so it's no wonder the Hawks defeated the Celtics and Russell's off-year in desire that season.

Hear, hear.

Finally, someone here understands that talent, skill, and good coaching & execution matter at least as much as attitude and desire to win.

[monosylab1k]

If the above questions aren't intended to be rhetorical, the answer would be "John Lucas".

Robinson was the one on the court taking those shots. You don't think a superstar could tell some pissant below-average coach "No, I'd rather not do that"?

[mabber]

I think I read somewhere that Wilt's vertical was in the 38-43 inch range. Can anyone confirm this?

I've heard this as well. I saw him play volleyball a few times (after his basketball career was over) and he could get up. Can you imagine a 7footer that can jump at the net in a volleyball game? Wilt was an incredible athlete that had the biggest ego one could imagine.

[Obstructed_View]

Robinson was the one on the court taking those shots. You don't think a superstar could tell some pissant below-average coach "No, I'd rather not do that"?
Yeah, David Robinson was known for that. :rolleyes Now you are just being stupid.

If you don't want to know the answers to questions, don't fucking ask them.

John Lucas was trying to increase Robinson's competetive fire, because Dave didn't give a shit about scoring titles, or NBA titles for that matter. It sort of backfired because Robinson was used up for the playoffs, and the Spurs got eliminated by an inferior squad (again). This time a team of guys that got a lot of rest at the end of the year.

[Obstructed_View]

I've heard this as well. I saw him play volleyball a few times (after his basketball career was over) and he could get up. Can you imagine a 7footer that can jump at the net in a volleyball game? Wilt was an incredible athlete that had the biggest ego one could imagine.
Wilt is the reason there's an NBA rule stating you can't cross the free-throw line until the ball hits the rim. He could dunk his free throws.

[mardigan]

The young Sabonis does not get enough love.

NOt your vydas, not my vydas, but Arvydas. Sweet highlight reel, a little grainy, but shows Sabonis schooling a young D-Rob
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHhnDBlBMEE

[monosylab1k]

Yeah, David Robinson was known for that. :rolleyes Now you are just being stupid.

Ah, so he's classy enough to not try to go over the head of his coach, but not quite classy enough to stop himself from embarrassing his opponents by dropping 71 on them in a meaningless game for no reason except a scoring title? riiiiiiiight...

The bottom line is that he wanted that scoring title just as much as anybody else would want it. That's why he did what he did. Stoking his competitive fire for the playoffs, his coach, whatever, those are all bullshit excuses.

[mardigan]

Ah, so he's classy enough to not try to go over the head of his coach, but not quite classy enough to stop himself from embarrassing his opponents by dropping 71 on them in a meaningless game for no reason except a scoring title? riiiiiiiight...

The bottom line is that he wanted that scoring title just as much as anybody else would want it. That's why he did what he did. Stoking his competitive fire for the playoffs, his coach, whatever, those are all bullshit excuses.

It might have been meaningless, but no one wants to lose, and the Spurs where only up by 2 points going into the 4th. They then outscored theClipps by 13 that quarter to put the game away. And D-Rob still had 5 assists that game

[Spurminator]

Sure he wanted the scoring title. Shaq wanted it too. That's why he bitched and moaned about it for 5 years.

[ambchang]

Specialists abounded in Shaqs prime time days. Dennis Rodman going off for lord knows how many rebounds per night, Jordan scoring 30+ per night, and Dikembe Mutombo blocking everything in sight for years doesn't exactly make it easy to lead in any category consistently.

Shaq has had solid numbers throughout. Just because he's not number one on a stat sheet more than once doesn't mean a thing.

When was the last time Tim Duncan lead the league in any major statistical category?

So which time period would you call Shaq’s prime years? I define it as 94 to 03.
The standings are as follows:

REB. Lead Shaq
1994 Rodman 2nd
1995 Rodman 3rd
1996 Rodman N/A
1997 Rodman N/A
1998 Rodman N/A
1999 Webber N/A
2000 Mutombo 2nd
2001 Mutombo 3rd
2002 Wallace N/A
2003 Wallace N/A

Blocks Lead Shaq
1994 Mutombo 4th
1995 Mutombo N/A
1996 Mutombo N/A
1997 Mutombo N/A
1998 Camby N/A
1999 Mourning N/A
2000 Mourning 3rd
2001 Ratliff 4th
2002 Wallace N/A
2003 Ratliff N/A

Scoring Lead Shaq
1994 Robinson 2nd
1995 Shaq 1st
1996 Jordan 3rd
1997 Jordan 3rd
1998 Jordan 2nd
1999 Iverson 2nd
2000 Shaq 1st
2001 Iverson 3rd
2002 Iverson 2nd
2003 McGrady 4th

An N/A standing means that either Shaq placed lower than 5th, or he didn’t play enough games to qualify. These are taken on a per game basis, not total.

First off, my mistake, Shaq lead the league in scoring twice, not once. But then when you look at the stats, there are a high % of years where Shaq didn’t finish in top 5 in rebounds and/or blocks, and in scoring, finished only 2nd to Jordan once.

As for Duncan, he was a PF and no, he is not blessed with the same size, agility and speed of Shaq (well, maybe speed), and was never expected to lead the league in any statistical category. Compare Shaq’s career to, say Robinson or Olajuwon would be more appropriate. Even though both of those players shared their prime years with Jordan and Rodman at their respective peaks, Robinson still managed to lead the league in rebounding once and scoring once (blocks once as well), and Olajuwon lead the league in rebounding and blocks as well.

[monosylab1k]

Sure he wanted the scoring title. Shaq wanted it too. That's why he bitched and moaned about it for 5 years.

Okay well that's fine. I have no problem with that. I think the way he did it was cheap, but even then it's not a big deal.

I just don't get how people can insist that he didn't give a shit about the scoring title (he obviously did). And how saying that Robinson might actually care about a personal statistic somehow becomes more offensive than raping Princess Diana's corpse.

[Spurminator]

I think the way he did it was cheap, but even then it's not a big deal.

It's debatable... 71 points on 41 shots is damned impressive, no matter how you look at it. That number of FGA has been matched or eclipsed 11 times in the last 20 years, and only Kobe beat 71 points.

[mardigan]

And how saying that Robinson might actually care about a personal statistic somehow becomes more offensive than raping Princess Diana's corpse.


WHOA!!!

[Obstructed_View]

Okay well that's fine. I have no problem with that. I think the way he did it was cheap, but even then it's not a big deal.

I just don't get how people can insist that he didn't give a shit about the scoring title (he obviously did). And how saying that Robinson might actually care about a personal statistic somehow becomes more offensive than raping Princess Diana's corpse.
Good God, are you bipolar or something? You really need to get your panties out of your crack.

Robinson got caught up in the scoring thing. hell, the fucking Clippers were rooting for him by the end of the game. Robinson's career should tell you he didn't give a shit about things like that, and Lucas made a big deal about the scoring title to make a point with his team and with his superstar. Shaq scored like 50 the night before, so Luke wanted to make a statement.

I was trying to tell you what was going on, are you actually reading any of this?

[alamo50]

O'Neal in front of Hakeem is just plain and simple stupid.

Walton in front of David must be a typ-o.

[monosylab1k]

I was trying to tell you what was going on, are you actually reading any of this?

It's debatable. But I DID read this...


Robinson's career should tell you he didn't give a shit about things like that.

...and this...


Robinson got caught up in the scoring thing.

...I believe that the street term for this is "contradiction". So he doesn't give a shit, but WAIT A MINUTE he got caught up in the moment and DID give a shit...hmm...But wait, there's more...


Lucas made a big deal about the scoring title to make a point with his team and with his superstar.

So first he doesn't give a shit, then he does, BUT NO he doesn't really give a shit because it's his coach that made him do it!

How about that law about the simplest possible answer being the right one? That being "David Robinson gave a shit about the scoring title, so he did what he had to do to make sure he got it." Doesn't mean he's any less classy of a guy. It really doesn't.

[Obstructed_View]

Wow, so reading comprehension is not your strong suit.

Ah. Mavs fan. Should have noticed earlier. You certainly proved you belong in their company.

BTW, Occam's razor isn't a law. It certainly proves that David Robinson was a ball hog his entire career. Didn't he average 40 shots per game one season?

[whottt]

Monosylable...did you or did you not see the number of fouls the Spurs commited in that game...do you still want to post a link from that article?

Secondly...don't give me this shit like Shaq didn't care about scoring titles, that's all he tried to do his first 10 years in the league was win one...and it wasn't that easy for him to do.

Lastly...he did have a game where he went out and scored as many points as he could...ironically, the same year he won a scoring title....he couldn't get 70.


He could not score easier that Drob...Drob was every bit as good at dunking, plus Drob could hit free throws, plus he had a J.

Shaq can dunk or do baby hooks and you can foul him and he can't hit FT's.

Not as good of a scorer as DRob.
Not as good of a passer.
Not as good of a shotblocker.
Not as good of a rebounder.

Drob holds a huge advantage against him head to head in the pre Duncan era.

He has winning record against him for his career.

And Drob's teams were 2-1 VS Shaq's in the playoffs...

I don't see what else you have to add, unless you want to post bs links from wikipedia.

[whottt]

And I'd just like to say this...

Fuck Sabonis.

I have heard this shit forever...

Sabonis would have been better than Drob...

Blah...that's all evey fucking euro that thinks he knows basketball has been saying.


Fact: Drob outscored and outrebounded Sabonis in that Olympic game...in which team USA lost it's starting guard and PF. While Team USSR had basically a freaking pro team featuring several players that were already playing in pro leagues and who would go on to play in the NBA.

Not to mention the fact that Team USSR scrimmaged against the Portland Trailblazers in preparation for that tourney.


Second Fact:

Drob owned Sabonis for a Gold Medal in the 86 Wold Championships....which at the time were more prestigious due to the fact that weren't subject to the boycotts so prevalent in the Olympics.


That's the fact...Euros need to stop saying the 88 Olympics prove Sabonis was better, when in fact...Sabonis got outscored, and out rebounded. That team USA was a weak team to begin with...and they were down 2 starters.

[monosylab1k]

Wow, so reading comprehension is not your strong suit.

My reading comprehension is just fine. Your writing skills are somewhat lacking, however.

You're the one that contradicted yourself three times in one post.

[timvp]

And Drob's teams were 2-1 VS Shaq's in the playoffs...
:reading

[whottt]

:reading



You going to count 02?



Go ahead...

99 Sweep
01 Ugly Sweep
03 PWNT

Go ahead and count 02...everyone else is a cheap ass bitch when it comes to Drob...you might as well be too.

[monosylab1k]

Secondly...don't give me this shit like Shaq didn't care about scoring titles, that's all he tried to do his first 10 years in the league was win one...and it wasn't that easy for him to do.

When the fuck did i EVER say that Shaq didn't care about scoring titles? It's pretty well documented that Shaq likes numbers and accolades. He's not ashamed to admit it.

ALL I SAID was that David Robinson DID give a shit about the scoring title. That's fuckin' all. If he didn't give a shit, then 71 points wouldn't have happened.

And my link didn't come from Wikipedia, dumbfuck. You didn't even look, did you?

Typical Spurs fan bullshit. Hey, why don't you tell me about all three of your rings that you won back whenever the fuck it was.

[timvp]

You going to count 02?



Go ahead...

99 Sweep
01 Ugly Sweep
03 PWNT

Go ahead and count 02...everyone else is a cheap ass bitch when it comes to Drob...you might as well be too.

:lol

I've been defending David Robinson on the internets since back when you were just a gleam in the coyote's eyes. But changing facts doesn't really help matters. Robinson missed two of the five games, but not sure how that counts as 2-1.

[mardigan]

And I'd just like to say this...

Fuck Sabonis.

I have heard this shit forever...

Sabonis would have been better than Drob...

Blah...that's all evey fucking euro that thinks he knows basketball has been saying.


Fact: Drob outscored and outrebounded Sabonis in that Olympic game...in which team USA lost it's starting guard and PF. While Team USSR had basically a freaking pro team featuring several players that were already playing in pro leagues and who would go on to play in the NBA.

Not to mention the fact that Team USSR scrimmaged against the Portland Trailblazers in preparation for that tourney.


Second Fact:

Drob owned Sabonis for a Gold Medal in the 86 Wold Championships....which at the time were more prestigious due to the fact that weren't subject to the boycotts so prevalent in the Olympics.


That's the fact...Euros need to stop saying the 88 Olympics prove Sabonis was better, when in fact...Sabonis got outscored, and out rebounded. That team USA was a weak team to begin with...and they were down 2 starters.


Damn dude chill out, no one is saying he was better than D-Rob, just that he was a lot better before he got to the NBA

[monosylab1k]

Monosylable...did you or did you not see the number of fouls the Spurs commited in that game...do you still want to post a link from that article?

...someone basing his argument on the total number of fouls called...hmm who is sounding like a Mavs fan now? :lol

[monosylab1k]

Damn dude chill out, no one is saying he was better than D-Rob, just that he was a lot better before he got to the NBA

Seriously, I think every here agrees that Robinson was a great player (How could you say otherwise?) and undoubtedly a top 10 center of all time....but this guy's got his nose so far up Drob's ass that he's ejaculating over the scent of his kidneys.

[whottt]

...someone basing his argument on the total number of fouls called...hmm who is sounding like a Mavs fan now? :lol



You sound like a Mavsfan...because you are too much of a douche to realize that the amount of fouls in that game against the Spurs was extremely low..

I'd die of shame if I ever posted a link as lame as that wiki article.

[whottt]

:lol

I've been defending David Robinson on the internets since back when you were just a gleam in the coyote's eyes. But changing facts doesn't really help matters. Robinson missed two of the five games, but not sure how that counts as 2-1.


Um...the fact that he probably shouldn't have even been on the basketball court.

I remember in one of those games his dunk attempt made Oberto look like Sergei Bubka.


IF he missed nearly half of the 5 games...how can you give say he takes responsiblity for the loss?

Secondly...he was coming back from a serious injury that left him with no feeling in his legs.

That's wasn't Drob in that partial series...me personally...I would have liked to have seen what happened in that series(in which the Spurs had a double digit lead entering the 4th of just about every game) with a healthy Drob.

True, Malik had probably his best playoff series as a Spur in that series...but I still think the Spurs D would have held up better in the 4ths if Drob had been able to play.


Ok fair enough...even being cheap...that leaves the playoff mark at 2-2.



I guess we should give Shaq some bonush points though...after all, he only had Kobe Bryant...it's not like he had the greatest guard tandem in NBA history like Drob did.

[monosylab1k]

You sound like a Mavsfan...because you are too much of a douche to realize that the amount of fouls in that game against the Spurs was extremely low..

I'd die of shame if I ever posted a link as lame as that wiki article.

...not a wiki article, come back to me when you actually have an argument.

[whottt]

Who wrote it?

[Don Quixote]

Typical Spurs fan bullplop. Hey, why don't you tell me about all three of your rings that you won back whenever the flip it was.

Dang, dude. You're getting all worked up over what a couple of morons said.

Spurs fans, however, are going to laugh freaking hard when either (a) the Mavs choke in the playoffs again, or (b) the Mavs actually manage not to choke and win it this time, only to have Spurs fans and the sports world in general forget all about it two weeks later. Or diss it, saying that they won because the East was weak, so and so was hurt, and so on. Either way, it's going to be hilarious.

It's awesome to see Little Brother all red-faced.

[whottt]

Who wrote it?



*tumbleweeds blow through thread*

[whottt]

By the way...you need to tell that guy he needs to talk to Linda Cohn...according to her it just happened because the Clips played no D.

[timvp]

2-1.5 is fair.


I guess we should give Shaq some bonush points though...after all, he only had Kobe Bryant...it's not like he had the greatest guard tandem in NBA history like Drob did.

Go read my post in this thread :reading

[monosylab1k]

*tumbleweeds blow through thread*

It's from the Thomson-Gale library archives. Still searching for a byline.

But, to reduce things to your level, here you go...

....Your mother's blood encrusted year old tampon wrote it. Go fuck yourself.