Enough, LeBron is not even the 3rd best wing in the NBA

[RobinsontoDuncan]

All I have been hearing/reading is how great LeBron James is since his one shining moment in Game 5 against Detroit. Before the series started everyone here thought James would tear Bruce a new asshole, they thought he could singlehandedly cause headaches for the Spurs, and they thought his team should be taken seriously. People on this forum actually think the Cavaliers could beat the Spurs.

Alright, does anyone here really think this LeBron is better than Kobe Bryant? There isn't a single thing LeBron can do that Kobe probably could not do a little bit better. LeBron is shooting just .425 in these playoffs and in his last 9 games he has broken 30 points only twice. Kobe Bryant has been put in a similar position with his team for the past 3 seasons and he has never had that rough of a stretch....and you could make the argument that Kobe Bryant's teammates are worse.Factor in that Kobe plays in a tougher conference, and I see no comparison. Kobe is a much better shooter, he is much smarter with the basketball, he can also pass very well, and he is a much better defender than LeBron.

Would a Spurs/Lakers match up honestly concern anyone here? Hell a weaker Spurs team beat them when they had Shaq and Kobe (and '03 Kobe > '07 LeBron).

Dwayne Wade. He is just as good of a passer as LeBron (check his stats in the playoffs last year) he is a much better shooter (doesn't take much) and he is just as good at both getting to the rim and finishing. Overall, Wade is a much more efficient, and ultimately a better player. Frankly I cant think of one thing that LeBron does that you cant argue Wade does just as well if not better, maybe LeBron is a better rebounder, but Wade gets a lot of boards in big games too.

Carmelo Anthony. He gets a bad wrap on this board because of his off court issues, but its pretty easy to see that he is a much more dangerous scorer than LeBron. In the 5 games he played against the spurs he averaged over 28 points per game (that's more than lebron has averaged in any series) shooting 48 percent from the field, and that's against a team that plays defense. Carmelo is just as explosive (if not moreso) and a much better shooter from all over the court than LeBron. (and dont forget he is apparently the most clutch player in the league, hitting the highest field goal percentage of any NBA player in the end of games). Carmelo doesnt control the ball as much as LeBron so we do see passing as a major part of his game, but against the spurs in the playoffs he grabbed a lot of boards and played relatively well on the defensive end.

LeBron to me is the essence of an overhyped, decent player on a shitty team. I guarantee that Carmelo would shit on the cavs in a 7 game series, and I highly doubt the Cavs could have beaten a single team the Spurs played in the western conference playoffs.

The best wing players in the league according to me:
1) Kobe
2) Wade
3) Carmelo

Don't let the hype confuse you

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Hell I wonder if Manu couldn't be a better player than LeBron if he was the star of his team

[Texas_Ranger]

LeBron >>>>>>>>> Melo.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

LeBron >>>>>>>>> Melo.


way to back up your argument there, i can see your basketball knowledge and it is quite overwhelming.

[KidCongo]

Melo plays with AI which take scoring pressure off him and LeBron has a much better all round game. He is still a great player but not as great as LBJ IMO atm.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Ummmmm...Carmelo put up more points per game before AI got to Denver.

[Hook Dem]

I don't think anyone here is dissing Lebron. It's just that he has been hyped up so much by the media that he can not accomplish what is expected of him singlehandedly.

[Thunder Dan]

The thing that is different with Lebron when it compares to Melo and Wade is that Lebron's team is trash other than him. Dwayne Wade has Shaq who draws a double alot. Shit, Damon Jones looked like an All-Star with Shaq, now he sees anywhere from 1 second to 2 minutes playing time a game. So if you hold all else equal Lebron should be up in those 3, not saying he is the best, but saying that your not looking at the whole picture. You get no argument from me as Kobe being 1, but remember Kobe wasn't that great his first couple years in the NBA, and Lebron IS 22, probably younger than you.

[MrChug]

Melo>>>>Lebron?

Shit...even I wouldn't go THAT far.

No, I think the Wade and Kobe point is well taken and I agree. But not Melo. Dude hasn't proven he can do shit in the NBA. He has MORE THAN ENOUGH talent surrounding him and they didn't even put up a fight against us, IMO.

[ambchang]

You have a good argument for Kobe, but I would not say Kobe is a better passer than Lebron. Lebron has that vision in a basketball player that really can't be taught. He understands spacing on the floor very well, and his leadership comes with the trust in his teammates, no matter how much they suck. The same cannot be said for Kobe.
Wade is a good decision maker, and I would say on the same level as Lebron. However, having an over the hill Shaq is still better than having Z on your team, any day. As much as the Mavs tried to defend Wade, they still didn't have their whole defense designed around him, like the Pistons and the Spurs are trying to do, and I would go out and say that the Spurs this year are a MUCH better defensive team than Melo last year.
As for Melo, he can score and do nothing else. In the Spurs series, Melo was largely single teamed because the Spurs know that he can only hurt them with scoring, and cannot score enough to beat the Spurs single handledly. The attention was on AI, with multiple waves of defenders going at him, make him take difficult shots while cutting off his passing lanes.
James is seeing the same defensive scheme right now, and he is struggling mightily with it. But still, it's just one game. Given how well he responded in the Pistons series, I will not be surprised he will have a string of enormous games vs. the Spurs in the series, and getting a couple of wins in the process.
I will rank the wings:
1) Kobe
2a) Lebron
2b) Wade
3) AI
4) T-Mac (when not injured)
5) Melo

Of course, that is not counting PGs like Kidd and Nash, given we are talking strictly wings. And no, AI ain't no PG.

[Thunder Dan]

You have a good argument for Kobe, but I would not say Kobe is a better passer than Lebron. Lebron has that vision in a basketball player that really can't be taught. He understands spacing on the floor very well, and his leadership comes with the trust in his teammates, no matter how much they suck. The same cannot be said for Kobe.
Wade is a good decision maker, and I would say on the same level as Lebron. However, having an over the hill Shaq is still better than having Z on your team, any day. As much as the Mavs tried to defend Wade, they still didn't have their whole defense designed around him, like the Pistons and the Spurs are trying to do, and I would go out and say that the Spurs this year are a MUCH better defensive team than Melo last year.
As for Melo, he can score and do nothing else. In the Spurs series, Melo was largely single teamed because the Spurs know that he can only hurt them with scoring, and cannot score enough to beat the Spurs single handledly. The attention was on AI, with multiple waves of defenders going at him, make him take difficult shots while cutting off his passing lanes.
James is seeing the same defensive scheme right now, and he is struggling mightily with it. But still, it's just one game. Given how well he responded in the Pistons series, I will not be surprised he will have a string of enormous games vs. the Spurs in the series, and getting a couple of wins in the process.
I will rank the wings:
1) Kobe
2a) Lebron
2b) Wade
3) AI
4) T-Mac (when not injured)
5) Melo

Of course, that is not counting PGs like Kidd and Nash, given we are talking strictly wings. And no, AI ain't no PG.


Over the Hill Shaq> over the hill Z

plus I think Vince Carter should be on there somewhere

[KidCongo]

Kobe is above them all bearing in mind he has longer time to develop. Wade is a great player and probably just a bit ahead after winning finals last year. If LeBron can lead his team to finals victory (Which i would love to happen) he would catapult ahead of Wade IMO.

[KidCongo]

Over the Hill Shaq> over the hill Z

plus I think Vince Carter should be on there somewhere

Vince chokes in playoffs...

[Thunder Dan]

Vince chokes in playoffs...


I don't think the argument is best swingmen in the playoffs. If that were the case Melo's name would probably never be mentioned

[RobinsontoDuncan]

I will rank the wings:
1) Kobe
2a) Lebron
2b) Wade
3) AI
4) T-Mac (when not injured)
5) Melo


No way you can put LeBron ahead of wade, even when Shaq has been injured and it has been just wade he has consistantly preformed better both in the regular season and the playoffs.

And none of the arguments about why LeBron is better than carmelo make any sense, he averages 4 apg and he doesn't handle the ball all that much.

If Carmelo held the ball for 14 of every 24 seconds im sure he could make a few nice passes. We doubled AI because he is a PG and loves to dominate the ball so we tried to force him into turnovers, the same way we did against phoenix and Utah.

LeBron is the Cavs PG, so he gets all the pressure.

That certainly doesnt mean he's better than Melo.

(Oh and btw, Carmelo hasnt done anything in the playoffs because he has never got to play pushover teams like the raptors, wizards, or nets.

[Thunder Dan]

No way you can put LeBron ahead of wade, even when Shaq has been injured and it has been just wade he has consistantly preformed better both in the regular season and the playoffs.

And none of the arguments about why LeBron is better than carmelo make any sense, he averages 4 apg and he doesn't handle the ball all that much.

If Carmelo held the ball for 14 of every 24 seconds im sure he could make a few nice passes. We doubled AI because he is a PG and loves to dominate the ball so we tried to force him into turnovers, the same way we did against phoenix and Utah.

LeBron is the Cavs PG, so he gets all the pressure.

That certainly doesnt mean he's better than Melo.

(Oh and btw, Carmelo hasnt done anything in the playoffs because he has never got to play pushover teams like the raptors, wizards, or nets.

Lebron doesn't play point, and the fact that you claim he does throws out any credibility of your arguments to say he isn't a good swingman

[RobinsontoDuncan]

LeBron is the PG of the Cavs the same way Duncan is the PG of the spurs, the offense runs through him

[Thunder Dan]

LeBron is the PG of the Cavs the same way Duncan is the PG of the spurs, the offense runs through him

as does the Heat's offense runs through Shaq, then he passes out when doubled, the Wade is quick enough to get out of closing defenders. See Lebron just has 2 guys on him at all times, if not three, and if they have a guy on him, they have 2 guys spying on him for when he does get the ball. Wade has a luxury of Shaq. Not saying Wade isnt a great player, but your not being fair to the arument. Again, nobody is going to double team Z, and the rest of the Cavs fall somewhere inbetween shit and decent, most migrating towards the former.

It amazes me to see all the Nuggets love when they havn't done anything ever. They cry that Denver doesn't geographically fall in the eastern United States, then complain that Ohio isn't considered the West. Then they try to make arguements that the leftovers of the 2003 draft are better than Lebron, who again, plays on a shitty ass team.

[samikeyp]

I'd put LeBron over Wade and Melo. Just my .02

[SA210]

Hell I wonder if Manu couldn't be a better player than LeBron if he was the star of his team
If Manu was on another team and was the the #1 guy, I believe we would realllly see greatness. As the #1 option, Manu would get lots of triple doubles, highlights, clutch play and would be the ultimate leader being unselfish and knowing when to take over.

Charles Barkley has said that on another team Manu would average 25 points a game. I believe that. He'd be a huge star. I don't care what any doubters say. Manu Ginobili lead his team to the Olympic Gold over the USA. That really means something. Boys got more skill than even some Spurs fans give him credit for.

[Thunder Dan]

This is Denver fans:

You know when you win a contest of some sort, but you don't win the first prize, say a Ferarri you get the 2nd prize say a Buick Lemans, or the third prize a Dodge Dart, your try to justify why getting a Dodge dart is better than a Ferrari for like better gas milage, or less taxes, or lower insurance costs, but you know you would rather have the Ferrari, its like that.

[ambchang]

No way you can put LeBron ahead of wade, even when Shaq has been injured and it has been just wade he has consistantly preformed better both in the regular season and the playoffs.

And none of the arguments about why LeBron is better than carmelo make any sense, he averages 4 apg and he doesn't handle the ball all that much.

If Carmelo held the ball for 14 of every 24 seconds im sure he could make a few nice passes. We doubled AI because he is a PG and loves to dominate the ball so we tried to force him into turnovers, the same way we did against phoenix and Utah.

LeBron is the Cavs PG, so he gets all the pressure.

That certainly doesnt mean he's better than Melo.

(Oh and btw, Carmelo hasnt done anything in the playoffs because he has never got to play pushover teams like the raptors, wizards, or nets.
What are you talking about? Lebron averaged 25.7/9.2/8.5 vs. the Pistons. Sure the Pistons didn't perform up to expectations, but they are definitely a good team. And when he had to play pushover teams, he averaged 24.7/7.3/8.5 vs the Nets, and 27.8/8.5/7.5 vs. the Wiz, for a playoff average of 25.1/8.2/8 in the whole playoffs, these are SICK numbers, even against JV league.
Melo against the Spurs w single coverage? 26.8/8.6/1.2. And why does it not make any sense? You measured Kobe's and Wade's passing ability vs. Lebron, why can't we measure Melo's when he truly sucked in that department? Is Melo is better scorer? That is arguable, but he is definitely not as good a passer, or leader for that matter. You have to come up with a consistent criteria to measure these players, you can't say that Wade > Lebron because he won more, Kobe > Lebron because he has more moves, and Carmelo > Lebron because he scores more. I can use the same method and say that Lebron > Wade because he rebounds more and has a better shooting percentage, and Lebron > Kobe because he passes more and rebounds better.
Last point, the reason Melo doesn't handle the rock as often as James, despite playing a similar position, probably tells you why he is not as good as Lebron.

[ambchang]

If Manu was on another team and was the the #1 guy, I believe we would realllly see greatness. As the #1 option, Manu would get lots of triple doubles, highlights, clutch play and would be the ultimate leader being unselfish and knowing when to take over.

Charles Barkley has said that on another team Manu would average 25 points a game. I believe that. He'd be a huge star. I don't care what any doubters say. Manu Ginobili lead his team to the Olympic Gold over the USA. That really means something. Boys got more skill than even some Spurs fans give him credit for.
Manu is way too out of control and inconsistent to be a franchise player, and he doesn't have the durability to battle for 35 to 38 minutes the whole season. I would put him on the Joe Johnson level as a franchise guy.

[michaelwcho]

Melo and Kobe came into the NBA with polished offensive skills. You don't really learn that stuff in the NBA, you already have it. As Chuck said: "If you can't shoot by now, you never will". People like LeBron and Parker and Bruce can improve their shot, but they will never reach the transcendent money level of someone like Kobe (IMO). Of course, Jordan did improve his shot quite a bit.

I think it's fair to say Kobe is better than LeBron at this point. Everyone got excited about LeBron putting up 40, but let's not forget that Kobe recently put up 80.

It could be argued that what Kobe accomplished with the dredges of the Lakers the last few years is comparable to what LeBron has done. Yeah, he got to the finals, but who's impressed? The question is, did he beat the Pistons or did they decline? Perhaps the only way to truly answer that is to beat the Spurs, or at least put up a damn good fight.

I'm not so sure that Melo, given his own Eastern conference team, wouldn't perform just as well as Wade or LeBron. He seems a little less mentally with it and professional, so maybe not. But he is right on their level. I disagree with the poster about Iverson. We didn't try to stop Melo because we couldn't stop Melo--we knew we could stop Iverson so we did that.

[bdictjames]

Yeah but Melo doesn't play defense.

I'd put Lebron in front of Wade as well, but Kobe's untouchable in that 1 spot.

[Leetonidas]

It's a tossup really. I mean Wade is a great player and I think I'd take him over LeBron simply because he's a better free-throw shooter. Carmello I don't know though. He can hit from anywhere, yes, but he's soft and doesn't have a killer instinct. Melo and Kobe are probably the best scorers but Wade and James can get it done in other ways.

So I think it's a tie right now as far as Wade and James are concerned. But Kobe is untouchable as the #1 wing in the NBA.

[Cleveland Steamer]

I would take LeBron over all those other chumps. Combination of youth, size and skills unmatched by any in the NBA.

[HooperPrince]

This is Denver fans:

You know when you win a contest of some sort, but you don't win the first prize, say a Ferarri you get the 2nd prize say a Buick Lemans, or the third prize a Dodge Dart, your try to justify why getting a Dodge dart is better than a Ferrari for like better gas milage, or less taxes, or lower insurance costs, but you know you would rather have the Ferrari, its like that.


that pretty funny , but I don't know if Melo is as far down as a Dodge Dart, if Lebron is a Ferrari :clap

[O-Factor]

The Spurs OWN lebron, like they own Amare

[Cleveland Steamer]

The Spurs OWN lebron, like they own Amare
After one game? I doubt it, LeBron will still average close to 30 in this series

[samikeyp]

Unless its a one-game series....no one is owning anything yet.

[JoeTait75]

D-Wade can't shoot, has or has had a security blanket of Shaq and a couple of other future HOF players, and gets his scoring numbers padded by the ridiculous calls he gets.

Carmelo is a great scorer but doesn't distribute and can't get a pretty damned talented team out of the first round. Plus he's a knucklehead.

Kobe is the best pure player of the four, but he doesn't lead, and as much as he's lauded for his 4th-quarter heroics, he goes 1-on-5 and shoots his team out of games too. And the way he quit in Game 7 against PHX last year was damn near shameful.

LeBron does more with less than the other three, and puts up his numbers despite almost never having someone else create easy offense for him.

LBJ >>>> the rest

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

I disagree with the poster about Iverson. We didn't try to stop Melo because we couldn't stop Melo--we knew we could stop Iverson so we did that.

finally, someone gets it :elephant

[Thunder Dan]

The Spurs OWN lebron, like they own Amare

Here is a Private Message this idot (O-Factor) sent to me, notice how the bold relates to his last post, and pretty much every post he has:

Your a cavs fan that would be happy if the Spurs won the finals huh? You are nothing but a piece of shit troll. We come here for intelligent analysis of the finals and people like you start shit and get pissed when we go on the offensive. Simple as that. Look I've come across your posts and no one is a bigger asshole than you. But there are some of us can be bigger assholes. You don't like me messaging you? Too bad prick.


this guy hasn't an objective bone in his body

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

Yeah but Melo doesn't play defense.

I'd put Lebron in front of Wade as well, but Kobe's untouchable in that 1 spot.

:lol and Lebron plays defense? :drunk

When they go head to head, Lebron doesnt even want to man up on Melo. He always pansies out and one of his teammates takes Melo :smokin But on the other hand, Melo has asked in past games to man up on James and loves the challenge of it.

Lebron wouldn't know D if it hit him on the head.

Lebron vs Denver this season - 24ppg (40% shooting, 14% from 3)

Melo vs Cleveland - 27ppg (63% shooting) only one game though, he missed the 2nd game

[O-Factor]

After one game? I doubt it, LeBron will still average close to 30 in this series

It doesn't matter what Lebron averages in these 4 games of the series. We are still going to own him. He wont win a game in this series, that much is obvious!

[O-Factor]

Here is a Private Message this idot (O-Factor) sent to me, notice how the bold relates to his last post, and pretty much every post he has:

Your a cavs fan that would be happy if the Spurs won the finals huh? You are nothing but a piece of shit troll. We come here for intelligent analysis of the finals and people like you start shit and get pissed when we go on the offensive. Simple as that. Look I've come across your posts and no one is a bigger asshole than you. But there are some of us can be bigger assholes. You don't like me messaging you? Too bad prick.


this guy hasn't an objective bone in his body


Glad you are getting my message out. I stand by every word of it....Its kind of hard to be objective when we completely controlled every facet of the game, and that is because we were rusty, especially offensively. You don't like it, too bad, this is a Spurs forum!

[Thunder Dan]

Glad you are getting my message out. I stand by every word of it....Its kind of hard to be objective when we completely controlled every facet of the game, and that is because we were rusty, especially offensively. You don't like it, too bad, this is a Spurs forum!


you have never posted one thing that shows any knowledge about basketball. You just ra-ra the Spurs in every post, and I'm not just talking about your posts against the Cavs, its the Suns, the Mavs, anyone who isn't the Spurs. Your a complete idiot and have never posted anything with any sort of intelligence ever. It doesn't suprise me seeing that you are either a)12-15 years old, b) a older uneducated gent. say 25-32 who lives with his parents working a dead end job and lives only for the Spurs and nothing else. Somehow I know one of those hit it right on the head.

Typical post by you:

"The Suns suck, we own them period"

[Jayem]

http://damnhomie.ytmnd.com/

make sure sound is on

:lol

[Dro210]

How the hell is Melo on that list? He's one of the top offensive players in the league, but he doesn't play an ounce of defense. Both ends are equally important.

and since that dunk on Sheed... LeBron is better than Wade, somethin switched on in his head at that moment, he's a completly different player. He's just got no chance in this series. Wade woulda got swept too

[RobinsontoDuncan]

and since that dunk on Sheed... LeBron is better than Wade, somethin switched on in his head at that moment, he's a completly different player. He's just got no chance in this series. Wade woulda got swept too


WTF are you talking about, he had a mediocre game 6 and a shitty game 1 on thursday.

BTW, you say Melo doesn't play defense? Has anyone ever accused James of playing defense?

[timvp]

If I'm starting a team and can pick any wing right now, I'd pick LeBron hands down. It's not even close.

LeBron can score. He's a very good rebounder. He has turned in to a very good defender recently. He gets blocks and steals. But above all, LeBron is one of the best passers I've ever seen from a guy his size. He has amazing court vision and is a very willing passer.

LeBron's intangibles are off the charts. He's a great leader who is all about winning. His teammates love him and will go to war for him. LeBron is damn smart on the court and off of it. He's been in the spotlight since he was 15 so he can handle pressure.

Wade is a great player but he's injury prone. Kobe is the best scorer in the game but he's a horrible leader and a horrible teammate ... and he's a very unwilling passer. Carmelo is probably the second best scorer in the league but he doesn't play defense, isn't a good passer and doesn't have many intangibles.

There are some horrible takes in this thread. LeBron has an off game so Spurs fans throw him under the bus :lol

If you gave GMs the option of picking any wing in the league, almost all of them would take LeBron.

[Dro210]

Melo is a damn human turnstile.... He's one of the worst defenders in the NBA along with Steve Nash...... Bron may not be All-NBA, but he's sure as hell alot better than Melo.

Game 6 wasn't a poor performance just because he didn't put up 48 again. It's not even about that. It's about him finally realizing that 'hey, i'm lebron james... im supposed to be doing this shit'...... he finally gets that... the sky is the limit for him now. Trust me.... one day...... sports people will universally look back on that play (the dunk on sheed) and say that's when it all started. LeBron up until that exact point had only played like a shell of himself. If you had really been paying attention to him over the years, you would have seen that happen right before your eyes too.

but like I said, he has no chance in this series.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Timvp, take everything you just said, and think about just how much more applicable it is to D Wade. Injury prone? Becuase of one injury?

Wade is as good if not better as a passer than lebron.

[timvp]

Hell I wonder if Manu couldn't be a better player than LeBron if he was the star of his team

:rolleyes

I like Manu as much as anybody but he's in a system now that maximizes all his skills. He plays next to Bowen so he rarely ever has to guard anyone of consequence one on one. He has Duncan in the post and Parker driving the lane to open the perimeter for him. He's in a free flowing offense that let's him drive whenever he wants. And when teams prepare for the Spurs, their first two priorities are figuring out a way to handle Tim and keep Parker out of the lane.

What you see now is Manu at his peak. In no other situation would he be better. Spurs fans like to pretend he's like a Michael Jordan who Pop is mean to so he only gets to play 30 minutes a game. That's all Manu can play and be able to keep his energy from game to game. And that's without having many defensive responsibilities or teams gearing their entire defense to stop him.

Manu is a great player but he's not LeBron and he's not a player that could go to his own team and be a 30 points, 7 rebound and 7 assist superstar.

[timvp]

Timvp, take everything you just said, and think about just how much more applicable it is to D Wade. Injury prone? Becuase of one injury?

Uh, Wade has been hurt in three out of his four playoffs. He turned an ankle his rookie season, in '05 he got hurt in the ECF leading to the Heat not making the Finals and this year he had a hurt shoulder and when he got back, his knee flared up.


Wade is as good if not better as a passer than lebron.

:lol

On what planet? Wade is a really good passer but he also has much better teammates. LeBron has a natural ability to pass the ball that you find once in a generation in a player his size.

On top of that, LeBron is three years younger, has much more potential that he can reach and has much better size.

[T Park]

Lebron >>>>>> Wade

any day of the week

Wade is great but is constantly got something wrong with him.

He also doesnt play well with injuries like an Allen Iverson.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Jesus Christ you Cleveland posters are a bunch of homers, there is no way you can call LeBron a better shooter than Wade.

Wade Field goal percentage's per year
03-04 .465
04-05 .478
05-06 .495
06-07 .491

Career playoffs shooting percentage= .479


Here's LeBron's shooting percentages
03-04 .417
04-05 .472
05-06 .480
06-07 .476

career playoff shooting percentage .449

[Dro210]

^LeBron's also shot over 1,000 more 3's in his career than Wade. Which is gonna make a pretty good dent in any field goal % comparison

[timvp]

^LeBron's also shot over 1,000 more 3's in his career than Wade. Which is gonna make a pretty good dent in any field goal % comparison

If you look at true shooting percentage, Wade and LeBron are pretty much tied throughout their career.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

^LeBron's also shot over 1,000 more 3's in his career than Wade. Which is gonna make a pretty good dent in any field goal % comparison


which just makes wade smarter considering he has never really trailed James much as far as PPG are concerned. How can you say a guy that scores the same amount points more efficiently as a less talented player?

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Right now I still put Kobe ahead of LeBron, because while LeBron's a better "overall player" the clutch rating of Kobe gives him the edge.
I mean really....if it comes down to lebron jacking up a shot against the Spurs to beat us, I am not NEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRLLLLLLLLLL LLLLYYYY as nervous and jacked up as I am if Kobe takes that shot. Kobe has had more clutch shots in one season than LeBron has in his entire career. I know LeBron's younger than me, but he's still experienced already. He had one of the most amazing performances in the playoffs of all time, but if you can name one other player in this league who could do what he did, it would be Kobe. (Unless the team getting owned is the spurs, then maybe TMac coulda done it :lol)

Kobe scares me because he has a killer instinct I have never seen in a wing EVER.
Overall, Lebron owns him, but if you put kobe in a position to win an important game, I give him the edge over LeBron in that same position. So, imo, that puts Kobe ahead of LeBron. For now.

[Dro210]

If you look at true shooting percentage, Wade and LeBron are pretty much tied throughout their career.


I did the math real quick..... If you take away the 3pt numbers out of the FG percentages, and here's what you get for their careers....

Wade: .497
Bron: .493


Yea, Wade's so much of a better shooter!! lmao

[RobinsontoDuncan]

I did the math real quick..... If you take away the 3pt numbers out of the FG percentages, and here's what you get for their careers....

Wade: .497
Bron: .493


Yea, Wade's so much of a better shooter!! lmao


Dude everyone on this thread has been saying Wade cant shoot. Did you take an argumentation class with Karl Rove or something?

[Dro210]

which just makes wade smarter considering he has never really trailed James much as far as PPG are concerned. How can you say a guy that scores the same amount points more efficiently as a less talented player?

Career PPG...

Wade: 23.8
Bron: 26.7

Wade's played about 60 less games (due to injury) that's why there's a descrepency in the amount of shots taken. As far as 3 pt. shots go... Wade doesn't take as many cause he can't make 'em. Simple as that. He shoots a horrible 25% for his career.


Where exactly are you trying to go with this?????

[timvp]

Right now I still put Kobe ahead of LeBron, because while LeBron's a better "overall player" the clutch rating of Kobe gives him the edge.
I mean really....if it comes down to lebron jacking up a shot against the Spurs to beat us, I am not NEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRLLLLLLLLLL LLLLYYYY as nervous and jacked up as I am if Kobe takes that shot. Kobe has had more clutch shots in one season than LeBron has in his entire career. I know LeBron's younger than me, but he's still experienced already. He had one of the most amazing performances in the playoffs of all time, but if you can name one other player in this league who could do what he did, it would be Kobe. (Unless the team getting owned is the spurs, then maybe TMac coulda done it :lol)

Kobe scares me because he has a killer instinct I have never seen in a wing EVER.
Overall, Lebron owns him, but if you put kobe in a position to win an important game, I give him the edge over LeBron in that same position. So, imo, that puts Kobe ahead of LeBron. For now.

Well, yeah if you have one fourth quarter or a couple possessions to win a game, Kobe might be the player to have at any position.

But Kobe is such a horrible teammate, leader and passer that he can't carry his team to situations that require being clutch anymore. Nowadays, Kobe clutch is against the Grizzlies in the regular season.

Without Shaq, all the flaws have been exposed in Kobe's game. Without a second superstar, Kobe probably can't even lead a team out of the first round anymore. Put LeBron on the Lakers with those teammates and Phil Jackson as coach, and the Lakers might would have beaten the Suns in the first round.

[Dro210]

Dude everyone on this thread has been saying Wade cant shoot. Did you take an argumentation class with Karl Rove or something?

What are you talkin about... I'm not arguing anything. I'm just stating facts.

and who said Wade can't shoot? He's deadly from 18 in

and wtf is Karl Rove?

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Well, yeah if you have one fourth quarter or a couple possessions to win a game, Kobe might be the player to have at any position.

But Kobe is such a horrible teammate, leader and passer that he can't carry his team to situations that require being clutch anymore. Nowadays, Kobe clutch is against the Grizzlies in the regular season.

Without Shaq, all the flaws have been exposed in Kobe's game. Without a second superstar, Kobe probably can't even lead a team out of the first round anymore.
Tru dat, and if this were a "who would you start a franchise with" thread I'd definetly pick James and agree with all of yall. But, to me, that Killer Instinct is just so damn cool I have to give Kobe the edge.

But it is a very slight edge.


Speaking of Kobe's passing....remember his no-look passes against the spurs? Ahhh memories :lmao

[RobinsontoDuncan]

The discrepency in career points per game are from Wade's rookie season when he didnt get as many touches as LeBron. If you evaluate the two from their second seasons on you'll see almost no discrepency.

And wade's performances in the playoffs have been leaps and bounds above LeBron's playoff performances.

Even in 2005 when he was injured against the heat he had a pretty good series overall, and he hasnt been as poor of a shooter.

The best thing about wade is he doesnt stand with the ball for 14 seconds at the top of the key before settling for an offbalance jumper.

[timvp]

The best thing about wade is he doesnt stand with the ball for 14 seconds at the top of the key before settling for an offbalance jumper.

Yeah because he has the most dominant bigman in the history of the NBA as a teammate. LeBron has Eric Snow.

[Marcus Bryant]

I think the Lakers go farther with LeBron instead of the concierge rapist.

[Dro210]

Wade has always had a good team.... LeBron still doesn't have a good team.

Or a coach that knows what to do with him (imo). That's why he's standing there for 14 seconds. I know this is an exaggeration, but when you watch the Cavs, it's like Mike Brown's game plan was "just go out there, play tough defense. And Bron, make something happen on offense, ok? ok... break!" Then everybody goes out there and is just watching LeBron. Not moving, hardly setting picks, just waiting like 4 Bruce Bowens for their open shot. Then when he passes it to 'em, that's it... it's like "oh shit, lebron passed me the ball, i better shoot it"... no extra passes, no getting it back to Bron... nothin.

That's gotta be hard to work with.

[michaelwcho]

Wade has always had a good team.... LeBron still doesn't have a good team.

Or a coach that knows what to do with him (imo).
That's gotta be hard to work with.

I wonder how much of that is just player control. LeBron made the comment that as long as they played D, they would be allowed to do whatever they wanted on O. We see the results.

Can you imagine someone on the Spurs saying that? It seems our boys follow orders almost like military recruits, whereas the norm is coaches begging their players to play right. Maybe that's why it seems we can beat teams more talented than us consistently.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

I think my detractors here are not understanding the point of this thread (TimVP Dro210)

Im not arguing that LeBron isnt going to change the game, that he doesnt have the potential to be better than Kobe or Wade. What I am saying is that LeBron is not better than either right now.

Say what you will, but there is no way LeBron wins the championship if he was on the heat last year and not wade, he doesnt rise to the occasion consistantly enough (wheras wade has been a dominant 30 ppg scorer when his team needs it whenever he has been out there, with LeBron you just know he could possibly be like that)

Im not ducks, i dont hate LeBron, im just oblivious. Until he actually preforms that way i dont think he deserves the credit he gets, not just on this forum but in the media.

The fact remains that at 22 kobe bryant was one hell of a better player in the playoffs than Lebron is now.

[Kori Ellis]

The fact remains that at 22 kobe bryant was one hell of a better player in the playoffs than Lebron is now.

And he was playing with Shaq and much better teammates than LeBron has.

[timvp]

I think my detractors here are not understanding the point of this thread (TimVP Dro210)

Im not arguing that LeBron isnt going to change the game, that he doesnt have the potential to be better than Kobe or Wade. What I am saying is that LeBron is not better than either right now.

Say what you will, but there is no way LeBron wins the championship if he was on the heat last year and not wade, he doesnt rise to the occasion consistantly enough (wheras wade has been a dominant 30 ppg scorer when his team needs it whenever he has been out there, with LeBron you just know he could possibly be like that)

Im not ducks, i dont hate LeBron, im just oblivious. Until he actually preforms that way i dont think he deserves the credit he gets, not just on this forum but in the media.

The fact remains that at 22 kobe bryant was one hell of a better player in the playoffs than Lebron is now.

Do you realize that everyone in your post that you're comparing LeBron to had Shaq on their team? Wade last year and Kobe at 22 had Shaq. That's a huuuuuuuuge part of the equation.

When defending against a team with Shaq, your first, second and third priorities are stopping Shaq from dunking. That's why literally every place Shaq has gone, a superstar shooting guard has emerged. Penny, Kobe and now Wade. Penny and Kobe were both exposed when Shaq left.

You are acting like you are comparing these guys in a vacuum when in fact it's a totally unfair comparison. Put Shaq on any team and a superstar will emerge just because of the fact that defenses have to focus all their efforts at stopping the man in the middle.

Kobe is a very good player, Wade is a very good player, Penny was a very good player. But none of the three are as good as Shaq made them look. None of those three can win a championship with a team built around them. LeBron is 4 wins away from doing that.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

He was also playing tougher competition with higher expectations and more distractions. Kobe Bryant was facing down Bruce in 2001-02 and delivering the goods (maybe my math isnt great but wasnt he 23 that year?) when was the last time LeBron had that kind of defence to worry about?

Team success not withstanding, Kobe Bryant was playing much better ball by the same time in his career than LeBron is now, just because he had shaq on his team shouldnt discredit his better FT%, his better range, his more consistant shooting, and the fact that he played smarter, more consistant basketball.

[timvp]

He was also playing tougher competition with higher expectations and more distractions. Kobe Bryant was facing down Bruce in 2001-02 and delivering the goods (maybe my math isnt great but wasnt he 23 that year?) when was the last time LeBron had that kind of defence to worry about?

Team success not withstanding, Kobe Bryant was playing much better ball by the same time in his career than LeBron is now, just because he had shaq on his team shouldnt discredit his better FT%, his better range, his more consistant shooting, and the fact that he played smarter, more consistant basketball.

Much smarter? LeBron has a higher basketball IQ than Kobe has ever had.

And you take Shaq off those teams and the Lakers don't even make the playoffs.

[timvp]

And Steve Smith had a better FT%, better range and was a more consistent shooter. Does that make him better than LeBron too?

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Do you realize that everyone in your post that you're comparing LeBron to had Shaq on their team? Wade last year and Kobe at 22 had Shaq. That's a huuuuuuuuge part of the equation.

When defending against a team with Shaq, your first, second and third priorities are stopping Shaq from dunking. That's why literally every place Shaq has gone, a superstar shooting guard has emerged. Penny, Kobe and now Wade. Penny and Kobe were both exposed when Shaq left.

You are acting like you are comparing these guys in a vacuum when in fact it's a totally unfair comparison. Put Shaq on any team and a superstar will emerge just because of the fact that defenses have to focus all their efforts at stopping the man in the middle.

Kobe is a very good player, Wade is a very good player, Penny was a very good player. But none of the three are as good as Shaq made them look. None of those three can win a championship with a team built around them. LeBron is 4 wins away from doing that.

Shaq in 2006 wasnt a very dominant player, wade got them where they went and shaq went along for the ride.

And you must have skimmed over my post timvp, all im saying is that right now, LeBron isnt the best wing player in the league

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Much smarter? LeBron has a higher basketball IQ than Kobe has ever had.

And you take Shaq off those teams and the Lakers don't even make the playoffs.


what? Kobe has had a worse supporting cast the past two season than he had in the championship years (newsflash LJ, they made the playoffs)

[Marcus Bryant]

Let me know when Ilgauskas starts making movies, becomes deputized, and cuts a track with the Fu Schnickens or whatever.

[T Park]

let me know the last time shaq went 1 of 8 in a finals game like Big Z.

RobinsontoDuncan your so far off its not even funny, quit while your ahead.

[timvp]

Shaq in 2006 wasnt a very dominant player, wade got them where they went and shaq went along for the ride.

You still had to make stopping 2006 Shaq your number 1 priority if you were another team. You don't stop Shaq and he was still dominant enough to beat you.

With that much energy and focus on one player, that leaves wings open to operate. From Penny, to Kobe and now Wade.


And you must have skimmed over my post timvp, all im saying is that right now, LeBron isnt the best wing player in the league

I'm saying he is. What wing could you put on the Cavs in replace of LeBron and expect them to make the Finals? You put Kobe on the Cavs and he'd just go on every radio station in the country crying about how little talent he has in his supporting cast. Wade, if he wasn't injured, doesn't have the size or stamina to play the role LeBron is playing. Put Carmelo on the Cavs and they might have given the Celtics and Grizzlies a run for their money.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Much smarter? LeBron has a higher basketball IQ than Kobe has ever had.

How do you come to that conclusion btw

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Kobe has practically the same team as LeBron, and there is no way in hell you hold Kobe to less than 35 a game in the leastern conference playoffs

[timvp]

what? Kobe has had a worse supporting cast the past two season than he had in the championship years (newsflash LJ, they made the playoffs)

No way. Those Lakers best players outside of Shaq and Kobe were Fisher, Horry and Fox. Odom by himself is better than those three.

[timvp]

How do you come to that conclusion btw

By watching him play. He thinks and reacts to situations as well as an wing in the league.

[timvp]

Kobe has practically the same team as LeBron, and there is no way in hell you hold Kobe to less than 35 a game in the leastern conference playoffs

Where is the Odom on the Cavs?

And the Lakers have this coach named Phil Jackson who might be something one day . :smokin

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Odom is maddeningly inconsistant and he has been injured for how much of this season?

Ultimatly my argument will come down to this, you cannot stop Kobe from getting 30 points if he wants to score 30. Frankly, the same cant be said about LeBron.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

By watching him play. He thinks and reacts to situations as well as an wing in the league.


Is that the reason why he has been shooting .425 this playoffs and his 4th quarter decision making is so frequently questioned?

[timvp]

Odom is maddeningly inconsistant and he has been injured for how much of this season?

Ultimatly my argument will come down to this, you cannot stop Kobe from getting 30 points if he wants to score 30. Frankly, the same cant be said about LeBron.

I've already said Kobe is the best scorer in the league. That's no contest.

But scoring and shooting aren't the only things to look at when coming up with the "best wing in the league". LeBron is the better rebounder, passer, gets more blocks and steals, is the better teammate, is the better leader, is more coachable and has more untapped potential.

And Odom is only inconsistent when he's playing with a guy who doesn't pass him the ball . . .

[timvp]

Is that the reason why he has been shooting .425 this playoffs and his 4th quarter decision making is so frequently questioned?

What does basketball IQ have to do with shooting percentage?

And the decision making you are speaking of is when LeBron had the audacity to pass to an open teammate who could have won a game with a three. If Marshall hits that shot, everyone is celebrating LeBron's pass.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

shooting percentage has everything to do with basketball IQ...it means you arent taking good shots. And there's more than that pass to donyell marshall that has been questioned, the fact that lebron loves to settle for jump shots instead of attacking the basket is pretty frequently sited as a cause for concern.

Rebounding and assists are great, but when your on a team that struggles to score points (lakers and cavs) and you have 14 points 7 assists and 7 rebounds you're not as valuble as a player that gets 30 points 5 assists and 5 rebounds

[timvp]

shooting percentage has everything to do with basketball IQ

Horry has the highest basketball IQ on the Spurs and he shot 35% this season.

How is that explained?

[duncan228]

Horry has the highest basketball IQ on the Spurs...

Is there a formula for "basketball IQ" or is it a matter of personal interpertation?

Don't mean to interrupt the conversation, but I've always wanted to know.

Thanks.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Horry has the highest basketball IQ on the Spurs and he shot 35% this season.

How is that explained?


Easily explained: Timvp is quick to hand out superlatives but slow on backing them up with analysis. Horry also knows his role, and that is primarily behind the 3 point line this year.

[timvp]

Easily explained: Timvp is quick to hand out superlatives but slow on backing them up with analysis. Horry also knows his role, and that is primarily behind the 3 point line this year.

So Horry doesn't have a high basketball IQ?

[timvp]

Is there a formula for "basketball IQ" or is it a matter of personal interpertation?

Don't mean to interrupt the conversation, but I've always wanted to know.

Thanks.

No, there's no formula. You can't really quantify it with numbers. It's just an observation.

But almost everyone who has ever watched Horry play has agreed that he has off the charts basketball IQ.

[Marcus Bryant]

Hmmm, who would be better at maximizing LeBron's talents: Phil Jackson or Mike Brown with offensive genius Hank Egan whispering in his ear? One wonders...

[RobinsontoDuncan]

so while all of you focus on making excuses for why LeBron doesn't preform as well as Kobe or Wade im sitting here dumbfounded.


Ok so he has a bad coach, great. Does that change the fact that he doesn't preform as well as the other players i mentioned? No. Maybe he could, but he isn't.

[Testing]

:rolleyes

I like Manu as much as anybody but he's in a system now that maximizes all his skills. He plays next to Bowen so he rarely ever has to guard anyone of consequence one on one. He has Duncan in the post and Parker driving the lane to open the perimeter for him. He's in a free flowing offense that let's him drive whenever he wants. And when teams prepare for the Spurs, their first two priorities are figuring out a way to handle Tim and keep Parker out of the lane.

What you see now is Manu at his peak. In no other situation would he be better. Spurs fans like to pretend he's like a Michael Jordan who Pop is mean to so he only gets to play 30 minutes a game. That's all Manu can play and be able to keep his energy from game to game. And that's without having many defensive responsibilities or teams gearing their entire defense to stop him.

Manu is a great player but he's not LeBron and he's not a player that could go to his own team and be a 30 points, 7 rebound and 7 assist superstar.


You are really downplaying the intangibles guys like Wade and Kobe have brought. Lebron took his team past the Wizards, Nets, and Pistons to the Finals. The highlight was obviously his play in Game 5 against the Pistons where he showed that when he wants to he is nearly unstoppable.

I have seen Wade do what Lebron did in Game 5 for 4 straight games in the NBA Finals. I have seen Kobe do what Lebron did in Game 5 for 3 straight years against your very Spurs team from 2000-2003.

Lebron is everything you said and more, there's no disputing that. However, Wade and Kobe play much better defense than Lebron and have proven over the course of an entire series at the biggest stage of the NBA that they can step up there game even more. Not saying Lebron won't do that, but let's wait until he does before we annoit him the best wing player.....

[duncan228]

No, there's no formula. You can't really quantify it with numbers. It's just an observation.

But almost everyone who has ever watched Horry play has agreed that he has off the charts basketball IQ.

Thanks for answering. I assumed it was observation, but on this board I learn all kinds of things I didn't know about basketball. I wanted to be sure I wasn't missing something.

I agree Horry is brilliant in his decisions on the court.
But I always thought Duncan's basketball IQ was "off the charts" the most on this team.

Just my Duncan favoritism showing? :spin Is Horry's better than Duncan's?

[Testing]

Also, Timvp: I love how you automatically annoit Lebron the better passer. I guess you missed those Lakers games towards the end of the season where Kobe was having 30, 9, and 6 games and the Lakers were still losing. Kobe is a very underrated passer, problem is his assist totals don't reflect it since he has Smush Parker, Odom, and Kwame Brown either fumbling his passes or missing their shots.

Also it's important to note, Kobe HAS to score 30+ points for his team to win....that's how bad the rest of that team is. Lebron doesn't have to...he had a horrendous Game 1 against the Spurs....yet the Cavs only lost by 9 and were down by 5 at halftime with Lebron scoring 0. If that were the Lakers and Kobe had 0 points at halftime.......how much do you think the Spurs would have been up by? My point being that it's easy for a great player to look even greater when he has halfway decent teammates. Lebron's teammates are highly underrated.

[Marcus Bryant]

Also, Timvp: I love how you automatically annoit Lebron the better passer. I guess you missed those Lakers games towards the end of the season where Kobe was having 30, 9, and 6 games and the Lakers were still losing. Kobe is a very underrated passer, problem is his assist totals don't reflect it since he has Smush Parker, Odom, and Kwame Brown either fumbling his passes or missing their shots.

Also it's important to note, Kobe HAS to score 30+ points for his team to win....that's how bad the rest of that team is. Lebron doesn't have to...he had a horrendous Game 1 against the Spurs....yet the Cavs only lost by 9 and were down by 5 at halftime with Lebron scoring 0. If that were the Lakers and Kobe had 0 points at halftime.......how much do you think the Spurs would have been up by? My point being that it's easy for a great player to look even greater when he has halfway decent teammates. Lebron's teammates are highly underrated.


Did his team win Game 1?

LeBron's teammates < Kobe's. Not even close.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

oh and for all of you that take defense into consideration, there is no debate and "testing" is right, Kobe shits on LeBron as far as defense is concerned

[Marcus Bryant]

Maybe Kobe shits on resort interns too.

[Dro210]

shooting percentage has everything to do with basketball IQ

lol... so by that calculation Mikey Moore is the most basketball smart player in the league right now..... (joking) :smokin



so while all of you focus on making excuses for why LeBron doesn't preform as well as Kobe or Wade im sitting here dumbfounded.


Ok so he has a bad coach, great. Does that change the fact that he doesn't preform as well as the other players i mentioned? No. Maybe he could, but he isn't.

Those other players couldn't win a game against the Spurs either by themselves..... He's performed well against everybody else, he's done what he had to do to win. It's just over for him now. He's gonna be a monster next year tho.


Also it's important to note, Kobe HAS to score 30+ points for his team to win....that's how bad the rest of that team is. Lebron doesn't have to...he had a horrendous Game 1 against the Spurs....yet the Cavs only lost by 9 and were down by 5 at halftime with Lebron scoring 0. If that were the Lakers and Kobe had 0 points at halftime.......how much do you think the Spurs would have been up by? My point being that it's easy for a great player to look even greater when he has halfway decent teammates. Lebron's teammates are highly underrated.

In general, that's because the Cavs are a pretty good defensive team, and they play at a slower pace..... Lakers would get blown out because we would score 100+ and they would score the same 76 the Cavs got. The Cavs defense keeps 'em in games.

in this game the Spurs didn't hit any outside shots

and the Spurs slacked off hard at the end of the game, allowing the lead to get down to the 9 that makes so many people seem to think was a 'close game'

[implacable44]

The thing that is different with Lebron when it compares to Melo and Wade is that Lebron's team is trash other than him. Dwayne Wade has Shaq who draws a double alot. Shit, Damon Jones looked like an All-Star with Shaq, now he sees anywhere from 1 second to 2 minutes playing time a game. So if you hold all else equal Lebron should be up in those 3, not saying he is the best, but saying that your not looking at the whole picture. You get no argument from me as Kobe being 1, but remember Kobe wasn't that great his first couple years in the NBA, and Lebron IS 22, probably younger than you.


so let me get this straight ? - Damon Jones looked like an All-star with Wade and Shaq but with Lebron he cannot even get on the court? Do you somehow think that validates Lebron's greatness? To me it is the exact opposite. Damon Jones -- Larry Hughes - both of them far worse off as Cavs...Lebron has not done anything to benefit either one of them

[implacable44]

Did his team win Game 1?

LeBron's teammates < Kobe's. Not even close.


Who does Kobe have that would support this statement ?

[Marcus Bryant]

Um, Odom, for starters.

[Dro210]

so let me get this straight ? - Damon Jones looked like an All-star with Wade and Shaq but with Lebron he cannot even get on the court? Do you somehow think that validates Lebron's greatness? To me it is the exact opposite. Damon Jones -- Larry Hughes - both of them far worse off as Cavs...Lebron has not done anything to benefit either one of them

Damon Jones doesn't play because he's a defensive liability and that's what the Cavs are focused on. Gibson shoots just as good and is better on D, and Eric Snow is alot better on D... Therefore they see the minutes that would go to Jones.

Hughes.... Man, I don't know what his problem is. His whole game was his athleticism, I guess all the injuries he's had has slowed him down alot.

[implacable44]

Um, Odom, for starters.

Odom is crap dude - average player -- What does Odom do that say Scrub Hughes can't do ?

Z is better than Bynum
Donyell Marshall is better than Luke
Anyone is better than Smush
Sasha is better than Brian Cook
The Lakers roster is a joke.

[implacable44]

Damon Jones doesn't play because he's a defensive liability and that's what the Cavs are focused on. Gibson shoots just as good and is better on D, and Eric Snow is alot better on D... Therefore they see the minutes that would go to Jones.

Hughes.... Man, I don't know what his problem is. His whole game was his athleticism, I guess all the injuries he's had has slowed him down alot.

Pat Riley doesn't focus on defense? My point is -- I don't think Lebron has made anyone on that roster a better player. I mean hughes is worse -Damon Jones is worse- Z is worse (injuries)... Donyell Marshall is the same - Gooden is debatable.

[Testing]

Um, Odom, for starters.


:lol You're kidding, right? I bet you've watched maybe 3 Lakers games all season.


Odom is a great player (when he's not hampered with some injury or the other which is about 30% of the time). However, he's the equivalent of Larry Hughes for Lebron. Lebron has shooters that the Cavs surround him with: Donyell Marshell, Gibson, Gooden, etc.

Kobe basically has one "shooter" who the Lakers can put on the floor with him: Cook...which isn't saying much. Smush Parker is not a shooter, Sasha Vuijic/Farmar etc are too young and inexperienced to be considered for this.

[Testing]

Pat Riley doesn't focus on defense? My point is -- I don't think Lebron has made anyone on that roster a better player. I mean hughes is worse -Damon Jones is worse- Z is worse (injuries)... Donyell Marshall is the same - Gooden is debatable.

Exactly. Again I say, who did they go through in the East?

Past two years, Kobe has had to take his team past the Suns......You think Lebron could have gotten the Cavs out of the first round if they had to face the Suns past two years? In a series against the Suns, you'd think he'd be able to make his team-mates look better?

[genghisrex]

If I had to choose between building a team around Lebron or Wade, I'd choose both in SpursTalk Dynasty Fantasy League 1.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

most of the posters here defending the great king james dont know jack shit about the lakers or the amount of support kobe gets. the truth is the two rosters are damn near equivalent as far as talent is concerned

[Dro210]

Pat Riley doesn't focus on defense? My point is -- I don't think Lebron has made anyone on that roster a better player. I mean hughes is worse -Damon Jones is worse- Z is worse (injuries)... Donyell Marshall is the same - Gooden is debatable.

Yea, well Mike Brown is no Pat Riley to say the least... Riley, like Pop and unlike Brown, realizes there's different players and different plays for different situations, and you need to coach the game accordingly

Bron has DEFINATLY made Gibson a better player tho, just by giving him his vote of confidence it's done wonders for his game. He's not afraid to take the shot or drive it to the basket (which he really didn't even do much at Texas).... as for the other players, probably not, Gooden and Varajao maybe. I wasn't really disagreeing with you, I was just sayin that's the reason why Jones doesn't play much.

[implacable44]

Exactly. Again I say, who did they go through in the East?

Past two years, Kobe has had to take his team past the Suns......You think Lebron could have gotten the Cavs out of the first round if they had to face the Suns past two years? In a series against the Suns, you'd think he'd be able to make his team-mates look better?


lebron would not have gotten his team in the playoffs

[implacable44]

most of the posters here defending the great king james dont know jack shit about the lakers or the amount of support kobe gets. the truth is the two rosters are damn near equivalent as far as talent is concerned


amen -- i would venture to say Lebron's team is a little better.

[timvp]

You are really downplaying the intangibles guys like Wade and Kobe have brought. Lebron took his team past the Wizards, Nets, and Pistons to the Finals. The highlight was obviously his play in Game 5 against the Pistons where he showed that when he wants to he is nearly unstoppable.

I have seen Wade do what Lebron did in Game 5 for 4 straight games in the NBA Finals. I have seen Kobe do what Lebron did in Game 5 for 3 straight years against your very Spurs team from 2000-2003.


And they both Kobe and Wade played with Shaq in those years. It's not magic that whenever Shaq is on the floor, a superstar stud emerges at shooting guard.

From Chris Jackson, to Penny Hardaway, to Kobe Bryant, to Dwyane Wade.

Do you think it's all just one big coincidence?

[implacable44]

Yea, well Mike Brown is no Pat Riley to say the least... Riley, like Pop and unlike Brown, realizes there's different players and different plays for different situations, and you need to coach the game accordingly

Bron has DEFINATLY made Gibson a better player tho, just by giving him his vote of confidence it's done wonders for his game. He's not afraid to take the shot or drive it to the basket (which he really didn't even do much at Texas).... as for the other players, probably not, Gooden and Varajao maybe. I wasn't really disagreeing with you, I was just sayin that's the reason why Jones doesn't play much.


I don't know if you can credit the tits game to Lebron - I mean he was getting his shots all on his own out there -- he is monta ellis of the East. I guess Lebron might give him some confidence but to hear folks say it- they always knew man boob could play,

[timvp]

Also, Timvp: I love how you automatically annoit Lebron the better passer. I guess you missed those Lakers games towards the end of the season where Kobe was having 30, 9, and 6 games and the Lakers were still losing. Kobe is a very underrated passer, problem is his assist totals don't reflect it since he has Smush Parker, Odom, and Kwame Brown either fumbling his passes or missing their shots.

LeBron is 50,000 times the passer Kobe has ever been or will ever be.


Also it's important to note, Kobe HAS to score 30+ points for his team to win....that's how bad the rest of that team is. Lebron doesn't have to...he had a horrendous Game 1 against the Spurs....yet the Cavs only lost by 9 and were down by 5 at halftime with Lebron scoring 0. If that were the Lakers and Kobe had 0 points at halftime.......how much do you think the Spurs would have been up by? My point being that it's easy for a great player to look even greater when he has halfway decent teammates. Lebron's teammates are highly underrated.

That's because LeBron can make his teammates better even when he isn't scoring. If Kobe isn't scoring, he's close to worthless.

[Dro210]

most of the posters here defending the great king james dont know jack shit about the lakers or the amount of support kobe gets. the truth is the two rosters are damn near equivalent as far as talent is concerned

Kobe has a horrible team.... So does LeBron.... There's really no edge.

Bron does have better shooters tho imo, which, combined with his style of play and passing ability.... I think gives the Cavs a better chance of beating teams than the Lakers.

[ducks]

hughes is greater then smush
gibson looks to be more promising then anything lakers currently have
lakers are always on tv in yuma land
odom is never agressive enough
kobe wants him to be
if lakers faced what cavs faced in playoffs they would be in finals right now
james is great but he is still learning
he needs more experience and make his decisions faster
he is gaining my respect slowerly
what kobe and wade have on james is playoff experience

[timvp]

oh and for all of you that take defense into consideration, there is no debate and "testing" is right, Kobe shits on LeBron as far as defense is concerned

Did you not see LeBron hold Prince to 16-66 for the series? Who did Kobe guard on the Suns?

LeBron was a bad defender a few seasons ago. That's old news now.

[implacable44]

And they both Kobe and Wade played with Shaq in those years. It's not magic that whenever Shaq is on the floor, a superstar stud emerges at shooting guard.

From Chris Jackson, to Penny Hardaway, to Kobe Bryant, to Dwyane Wade.

Do you think it's all just one big coincidence?

woah == Chris Jackson was at LSU long before Shaq showed up and he set evey frosh scoring record available -- (EXAG.. but you get the point) - he did not make Chris Jackson - Jackson was already well established.

Dwayne wade was already a player before Shaq went to the Heat and Kobe would have been too - with or without Shaq - Kobe would have been Kobe.

I will let the nickel slide because his game went south -- way south - injuries - confidence I don;t know what it was but his game left with Shaq.

[timvp]

Odom is crap dude - average player -- What does Odom do that say Scrub Hughes can't do ?



:lmao

implacable44 should stick to being the PC police.

[ducks]

james d is better
mike brown told him he needs to buy into it
that is why cavs d is as good as it is

[implacable44]

50,000 times the passer? don't overstate it or anything.

[timvp]

most of the posters here defending the great king james dont know jack shit about the lakers or the amount of support kobe gets. the truth is the two rosters are damn near equivalent as far as talent is concerned

Yeah you have a Lakers homer and a guy who thinks Beno Udrih played a huge role in the Pistons series in 2005 on your side.

You need to figure out there is a difference between finding the best wing and finding the best scorer.

[Dro210]

I don't know if you can credit the tits game to Lebron - I mean he was getting his shots all on his own out there -- he is monta ellis of the East. I guess Lebron might give him some confidence but to hear folks say it- they always knew man boob could play,

Most of his shots come from LeBron driving and kicking out ala Tony to Bruce.... I don't know where the driving ability came from, I never remember him being that good at it at UT........ but that vote of confidence thing is huge imo, especially coming from your superstar as a rookie.

I think I know where you're coming from with your Ellis comparision, but their games really arn't too similar.

[implacable44]

:lmao

implacable44 should stick to being the PC police.


your mom what?

get an IQ - then get a basketball IQ that has to do with something besides regurgitating what you hear on sports talk and ESPN and then come back and talk to me.

[Marcus Bryant]

:lol You're kidding, right? I bet you've watched maybe 3 Lakers games all season.


Odom is a great player (when he's not hampered with some injury or the other which is about 30% of the time). However, he's the equivalent of Larry Hughes for Lebron. Lebron has shooters that the Cavs surround him with: Donyell Marshell, Gibson, Gooden, etc.

Kobe basically has one "shooter" who the Lakers can put on the floor with him: Cook...which isn't saying much. Smush Parker is not a shooter, Sasha Vuijic/Farmar etc are too young and inexperienced to be considered for this.

Odom is a superior player to Hughes without a doubt. And I've seen a fair number of Laker games this season.

[implacable44]

Yeah you have a Lakers homer and a guy who thinks Beno Udrih played a huge role in the Pistons series in 2005 on your side.

You need to figure out there is a difference between finding the best wing and finding the best scorer.


don't misquote people - i said beno got pt in the crunch because parker bithced up like he has every year in his career but this one ...so far.

matter of fact -- if i remember - you were one of the anuses on this board crying out for jason kidd to come in because parker always bitched up -- typical of the french but that is another story...

[timvp]

your mom what?


At least I don't have one dad and 12 moms. what?

[timvp]

don't misquote people - i said beno got pt in the crunch because parker bithced up like he has every year in his career but this one ...so far.

And that revisionist quote is still wrong.


matter of fact -- if i remember - you were one of the anuses on this board crying out for jason kidd to come in because parker always bitched up -- typical of the french but that is another story...

:lol

You must be thinking of a different timvp because this one was always against Kidd.

[implacable44]

Odom is a superior player to Hughes without a doubt. And I've seen a fair number of Laker games this season.

odom is not superior to hughes. Odom is crap -- especially in the triangle - where as he would be a better player in a different system but how can you see he is superior to hughes? He has never averaged 20 ppg. - they are a wash if you ask me. ODom is the Jake Plummer of the NBA - -all that potential....

[implacable44]

At least I don't have one dad and 12 moms. what?


well we do have something in common -- neither do I -- but then -- you dont know who your dad is so....

[timvp]

well we do have something in common -- neither do I -- but then -- you dont know who your dad is so....

I would ask you if you remember which one of your moms forgot to abort but that'd be stooping to your level.

:smokin

[implacable44]

And that revisionist quote is still wrong.



:lol

You must be thinking of a different timvp because this one was always against Kidd.

I didnt quote anything - the basis of that whole conversation was -- TP bitches up -- every year. You can't debate it because it is true- this year beign the exception (so far - lets just hope they dont knock him on his ass again).

Pop turned to Beno -- this year to Vaughn and I hope -- I really hope that he goes to another team where he doesn't have a Duncan.

[Dro210]

Saying Hughes is better than Odom is ludacris

There's more to basketball than scoring

[timvp]

odom is not superior to hughes.

If you truly believe that, you should retire from the internets.

Odom averages more points, rebounds, assists and shoots better from the floor, line and three. Any human with a half point of basketball IQ would know that Odom > Hughes.

WTF?

[implacable44]

I would ask you if you remember which one of your moms forgot to abort but that'd be stooping to your level.

:smokin


but then..... I refuse to point out the obvious....
Are you revealing your true nature again ? Al Sharpton ? Sen. Byrd ? Bigot ?

[Dro210]

Pop turned to Beno -- this year to Vaughn and I hope -- I really hope that he goes to another team where he doesn't have a Duncan.


Fuck no... Fuck that.... Fuck you....

and when have we ever turned to Vaughn this year? Are you kidding me? Pop cringes as much as we do when that fool goes in the game.

[timvp]

I didnt quote anything - the basis of that whole conversation was -- TP bitches up -- every year. You can't debate it because it is true- this year beign the exception (so far - lets just hope they dont knock him on his ass again).

Pop turned to Beno -- this year to Vaughn and I hope -- I really hope that he goes to another team where he doesn't have a Duncan.

Since you such a basketball expert this means so much.

[timvp]

but then..... I refuse to point out the obvious....
Are you revealing your true nature again ? Al Sharpton ? Sen. Byrd ? Bigot ?

:cry

You pull the mom card and then can't hang. Typical.

[implacable44]

Fuck no... Fuck that.... Fuck you....

and when have we ever turned to Vaughn this year? Are you kidding me? Pop cringes as much as we do when that fool goes in the game.

Vaughn doesn't get on the floor ?

[implacable44]

:cry

You pull the mom card and then can't hang. Typical.


you have nothing for me

[implacable44]

Since you such a basketball expert this means so much.


In the words of my college coach - I have forgotten more about basketball than you will ever know.

[Dro210]

Vaughn doesn't get on the floor ?


So you expect Parker to play 48 minutes every game?

Well.... I guess that explains alot

[timvp]

Vaughn doesn't get on the floor ?

Good point because Parker would play 48 if he was worth his salt.

[implacable44]

So you expect Parker to play 48 minutes every game?

Well.... I guess that explains alot



nope.

[timvp]

In the words of my college coach - I have forgotten more about basketball than you will ever know.

You should have listened to your college coach when he was trying to tell you that you know nothing about basketball.

[implacable44]

If you truly believe that, you should retire from the internets.

Odom averages more points, rebounds, assists and shoots better from the floor, line and three. Any human with a half point of basketball IQ would know that Odom > Hughes.

WTF?

Odom is crap. Bet you if the Lakers offered hughes for Odom (without checking salaries) they would do it.

[Dro210]

^That's because Mitch Kupcake is an idiot.

[timvp]

Odom is crap. Bet you if the Lakers offered hughes for Odom (without checking salaries) they would do it.

I don't even have a response for a take that bad.

[implacable44]

You should have listened to your college coach when he was trying to tell you that you know nothing about basketball.


He didnt say it to me.
You can't play... you can't critique - you can't explain an offense - or a defense. You are a typical message board clown. Regurgitate things you hear - find loads of stats between while your porn downloads in limewire quote those stats -- yet you probably couldn't hit a 10 footer or make a left handed lay up.

[implacable44]

I don't even have a response for a take that bad.


Lets see - Hughes averaged 20 ppg 7 boards 4 assits and 2 steals as a Wizard. He goes to Cleveland and all the sudden he can't play ?

[timvp]

yet you probably couldn't hit a 10 footer

Shooting contest. Player who loses retires from the forum.

Deal? Name the place.

[Kori Ellis]

He didnt say it to me.
You can't play... you can't critique - you can't explain an offense - or a defense. You are a typical message board clown. Regurgitate things you hear - find loads of stats between while your porn downloads in limewire quote those stats -- yet you probably couldn't hit a 10 footer or make a left handed lay up.


timvp buries you in basketball knowledge - I'm sure 99% of people on earth would attest to that if they talked to you both.

As for basketball skills, he has very good 3 point range, but that's neither here nor there. :lol

If you think Larry Hughes > Lamar Odom, you should retire from watching basketball permanently, because obviously you are blind or just stupid.

Go back to just hating Parker and Bowen. It's a better schtick.

[implacable44]

in a heart beat. i would feel terrible if I didnt tell you to ask around with some folks who know me though - I would feel the integrity of this challenge was tainted.

[Dro210]

I smell a Spurstalk basketball game in the near future.... If so, count me in

I'm goin Steve Jacks all over implacable... lol... (im not talkin about the palace brawl either)

[timvp]

in a heart beat. i would feel terrible if I didnt tell you to ask around with some folks who know me though - I would feel the integrity of this challenge was tainted.

I already asked your college coach and he said you have missed more shots than he has taken in his life.

[ShoogarBear]

Well, yeah if you have one fourth quarter or a couple possessions to win a game, Kobe might be the player to have at any position.
For clutchness, Kobe and Wade both have greater credentials than LeBron so far (even accounting for the Shaq factor), and clearly both are better FT shooters. Kobe is also a better defender when he wants to be. In every other aspect LeBron is better than both, and has every indication of improving in the areas where he is weaker.

What I wanna find out now is how clutch a shooter timvp is . . . :fro

[Dro210]

Woooooooo... Spurstalk basketball is gonna be serious!

Where would we play?

[implacable44]

I tell you what - next time I am in San Antonio - I will get the key to that polygamist church - you know -- where we have those rooms to house all the wives in while we worship -- anyhow - I will get the key to one of two buildings - either the building in Windcrest or the one off 410 and Babcock and we will go play.

[timvp]

I tell you what - next time I am in San Antonio - I will get the key to that polygamist church - you know -- where we have those rooms to house all the wives in while we worship -- anyhow - I will get the key to one of two buildings - either the building in Windcrest or the one off 410 and Babcock and we will go play.

Will Beno be there?

[ShoogarBear]

james d is better
mike brown told him he needs to buy into it
that is why cavs d is as good as it isHow did everyone miss this?

*faints*

(p.s. :tu ducks, 3 more wins to go!)

[Kori Ellis]

Woooooooo... Spurstalk basketball is gonna be serious!

Where would we play?

In the offseason, I'll organize another Spurstalk 3-on-3 tournament. We rent out a gym and then I run a double-elimination 16 team tourney and give out prizes and stuff.

[ducks]

How did everyone miss this?

*faints*

(p.s. :tu ducks, 3 more wins to go!)


james is great but he is still learning
he needs more experience and make his decisions faster
he is gaining my respect slowerly
what kobe and wade have on james is playoff experience
you missed this also

thanks shoogarbear
:fro

[florige]

In the offseason, I'll organize another Spurstalk 3-on-3 tournament. We rent out a gym and then I run a double-elimination 16 team tourney and give out prizes and stuff.


Another one?? How much is it?

[Kori Ellis]

Another one?? How much is it?

It doesn't cost anything - timvp and I pay for the gym and give prizes.

We didn't have one this past season, but we've had four or five of them in the past.

[duncan228]

It doesn't cost anything - timvp and I pay for the gym and give prizes.

We didn't have one this past season, but we've had four or five of them in the past.

You guys continually amaze me.
You give so much of yourselves, your time, your money.
Your heart.

I'm glad I found ST. It's been wonderful getting to "know" you two.

[florige]

You guys continually amaze me.
You give so much of yourselves, your time, your money.
Your heart.

I'm glad I found ST. It's been wonderful getting to "know" you two.



Yeah thats real cool, I thought sure there would be some charge. Just a friendly tournament with prizes. Nothing wrong with that. So who here at Spurs talk has the "stand out" type of b-ball game on the court?

[Dro210]

In the offseason, I'll organize another Spurstalk 3-on-3 tournament. We rent out a gym and then I run a double-elimination 16 team tourney and give out prizes and stuff.

Sweet.... Me, GINNNNNNNNOBILI...... and its already over :fro

[Cry Havoc]

most of the posters here defending the great king james dont know jack shit about the lakers or the amount of support kobe gets. the truth is the two rosters are damn near equivalent as far as talent is concerned

So if the two rosters are equal....


And Kobe's team ate it in the first round...


And LeBron's team is in the NBA -FINALS-....


Then clearly Kobe is the better player because he scores more. :lol

Your logic is beyond bizarre.


As far as the comparisons go, wow, Wade is a better player because he scores a lot? Give LeBron that many free throws in ANY game, that many phantom calls (and I say this as a staunch anti-Mavs fan) and see what kind of silly numbers he puts up.

Kobe would have NEVER made that pass in Game 1. He NEVER would have trusted the ball to Gibson and found he has a shooter there.

Kobe plays better defense, but so what? If I was a rookie right now and I had a choice to follow LeBron or Kobe into battle next season, I'm not even going to think twice about it. James is a teammate. Kobe is all about individual effort. You can tally up his 81 point game all you want, that just proves that he has zero faith in his teammates. Marshall may have missed that shot, but LeBron showed that he has a lot of trust in his teammates.


As for the fact that the Spurs dismantled him in game 1, let's see...

A first time Finals player...

With nary another good player on the team...

Getting triple teamed...

I mean hell, we have NEVER covered a player like we blanketed James in Game 1, at least not while I've been around. Maybe Shaq, but he's a post player, so it's a completely different animal. You think Kobe's going to drive against three Spurs?

No. We know that whenever we play Kobe, we can pretty much let him handle the ball to oblivion and watch his teammates self-destruct out of frustration. It does them no good to get open, since Kobe would gladly try to slip through a double-team before passing anyway.


The fact remains that at 22 kobe bryant was one hell of a better player in the playoffs than Lebron is now.

This might be true. Now, if only you could find 4 decent players who want to be on the same court with Kobe.

Meanwhile, LeBron has players lining up to talk about what an amazing leader he is.

I know you turn a blind eye to that kind of stuff, but it still means something.

[tim_duncan_fan]

I just have to say one thing:

Anybody that does not believe Kobe Bryant is the best wing player in the game is being blinded by one of these factors

1. He's kicked your team's butt and you cant get over it

2. You cant get over that trial

3. You're blinded by some other player's overrated stardom

The only legitimate challenge to KB24 is D-Wade. And I know people are going to say something about the shaq factor, but remeber this guy led his team into the playoffs his rookie season, something "the chosen one" didn't do. He came into the league clutch.

This is the list:

1. Kobe (probably a consensus among everybody excepted blinded haters)

2. D-Wade (consistently shows up big, unlike bron)

3. Carmello (also degraded by some because of issues irrelevant to his play)

4. LeBron

What Lebron's fans dont realize is that they wouldn't be nearly as impressed with him as they are now if ESPN didn't tell them to be impressed by him.

[tim_duncan_fan]

This might be true. Now, if only you could find 4 decent players who want to be on the same court with Kobe.

Meanwhile, LeBron has players lining up to talk about what an amazing leader he is.

I know you turn a blind eye to that kind of stuff, but it still means something.

This is exactly the type of thing I just finished typing about. Just because Kobe's team mates didn't walk around with his dick in their mouths, it doesn't mean he wasn't/isn't a great player. Remeber, MJ wasn't a saint either and I guarantee you LeBron isn't exactly Mother Teresa either.



I guess I had 2 things to say.

[Cry Havoc]

This is exactly the type of thing I just finished typing about. Just because Kobe's team mates didn't walk around with his dick in their mouths, it doesn't mean he wasn't/isn't a great player. Remeber, MJ wasn't a saint either and I guarantee you LeBron isn't exactly Mother Teresa either.



I guess I had 2 things to say.


Are you fucking kidding? Jordan might have ridden his teammates, sure, but he wasn't afraid to put the ball in their hands, even if it meant they lost. Jordan developed friendships and/or relationships with his players. He fought with them not because he was deriding their ability as players, but because he was willing them to be BETTER, to focus better, to play better, not because they were taking away "his" chance at a title.

It makes all the difference in the world if your teammates have respect for you and like you as a teammate. Are you really going to argue this point? Kobe's teammates aren't "walking around with his dick in their mouths" because he wouldn't want to get the damn thing polluted with their "unathletic germs".

Jordan's teammates, every single one of them that lasted longer than a season, would tell you that they would follow him into battle, that he was a teammate who wanted to win.

You think Kobe's teammates would say the same? Bullshit. There have been numerous articles written about Kobe stating what a loner he is, that he doesn't work on bonds with his teammates, that he doesn't seek to work with them outside of when his "job" merits it.

Kobe is a total egomaniac. He doesn't even know what he wants as a player, telling a media outlet that he would like to be traded before ever bringing it up with his coach or GM. What the hell do you rate a basketball player on? You think a player can be a great teammate if everyone else on his team hates him? You think there is a SINGLE Laker who wants to set foot on the court with Kobe, who just basically denounced them as so worthless that he's willing to whine to an external source that they aren't doing enough?

The fact that Kobe is even considered a GOOD player is beyond me. He's a cancer unlike no other. If his 81 point game wasn't enough of an example of how much he's in this for himself, this recent trade drama, which distracted and detracted from the NBA playoffs should have sealed it up. It put the final nail in the coffin that Kobe is just like TO, he has to make waves and be noticed or his alpha dog complex starts working itself up.


This is the list:

1. Kobe (probably a consensus among everybody excepted blinded haters)

2. D-Wade (consistently shows up big, unlike bron)

3. Carmello (also degraded by some because of issues irrelevant to his play)

4. LeBron

So let's see if I have this right:

1. Kobe - Took All-star Odom and notched him down to barely a role player. Has done NOTHING in the playoffs since Shaq left. Is an obvious headcase and individual self-promoting shithead.

2. Wade - Wow, so he won a title with Shaq on his team? That sounds a lot like the first guy that was mentioned. How did he do in the playoffs this year?

3. Melo - Um, what exactly has this guy done to EVER merit a comparison to James? Inferior passer, defender, rebounder. James on the Nuggets would challenge the Spurs for WC dominance.

4. James - Let's see. He took the Cavs to the NBA finals. His second best player is either Larry Hughes or Z. He'd probably kill to have Odom on his team.

But have you ever heard LeBron get on his teammates for being less talented than he is? No. Have you ever heard him ask for a trade? No. He's in the Finals with a squad that didn't have a sniff at a 2nd all-star player this year.

And he's younger than everyone else mentioned. So your statement about him "never showing up" is flawed to the extreme. Like, it's not even comprehensible that a player who's barely old enough to drink is being shit on for not winning a title yet in the era of Shaq and Duncan. Good Lord, people.

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

where the heck do you guys the idea that james plays D? If he plays D, then so does Melo.

[Cry Havoc]

where the heck do you guys the idea that james plays D? If he plays D, then so does Melo.

Yeah, I mean he was only 11th in steals for the regular season for the entire league. :rolleyes

He's only averaging nearly 2 a game in the playoffs. He also had 8.2 rebounds per game, which is considered a solid defensive stat.

Most of all though, he's not a complete fucking sieve like Melo is on defense. James has made it clear he's going to improve his entire game, not just score a bunch of points. Carmelo has shown little desire to develop his game beyond winning the scoring title.

[timvp]

where the heck do you guys the idea that james plays D? If he plays D, then so does Melo.

Look at what happened to Tayshaun Prince in the ECF.

[michaelwcho]

matter of fact -- if i remember - you were one of the anuses on this board crying out for jason kidd to come in because parker always bitched up -- typical of the french but that is another story...

If you knew anything about French history, you wouldn't say such a ridiculous thing. They have been bathed in blood and fighting wars since Montezuma reigned.

[michaelwcho]

[QUOTE=Cry Havoc]Are you fucking kidding? Jordan might have ridden his teammates, sure, but he wasn't afraid to put the ball in their hands, even if it meant they lost. Jordan developed friendships and/or relationships with his players. He fought with them not because he was deriding their ability as players, but because he was willing them to be BETTER, to focus better, to play better, not because they were taking away "his" chance at a title.


Jordan's teammates, every single one of them that lasted longer than a season, would tell you that they would follow him into battle, that he was a teammate who wanted to win.

QUOTE]

Where are you getting this crap? Have you read The Jordan Rules!? That dude was a tyrant. It took him ___6 years___ to find a way to learn how to win while keeping up his treasured 32 points a game.

[Cry Havoc]

Where are you getting this crap? Have you read The Jordan Rules!? That dude was a tyrant. It took him ___6 years___ to find a way to learn how to win while keeping up his treasured 32 points a game.

The year Kobe averages 8 assists per game and shoots over 50%, I'll change my attitude. However, even with Shaq, whom his ego-battle should have clued everyone in to the type of player he is, he only averaged 5 assists per game. He averaged 43% shooting with 4.4 assists this year.

Kobe's highest assist average in a SINGLE season is lower than LeBron James' career average. How is this even debatable that Kobe is a decent teammate when compared to LeBron?

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I do not think it is impossible for Kobe to lead a shitty team without Shaq to the finals if he were in the Eastern conference, ESPECIALLY if his team was in this year's eastern conference, and even moreso if he played the wizards at any point in his playoff run.

I know its a dead horse, but it is what it is.

[gaKNOW!blee]

Kobe
Lebron
Wade
Melo

[michaelwcho]

The year Kobe averages 8 assists per game and shoots over 50%, I'll change my attitude. However, even with Shaq, whom his ego-battle should have clued everyone in to the type of player he is, he only averaged 5 assists per game. He averaged 43% shooting with 4.4 assists this year.

Kobe's highest assist average in a SINGLE season is lower than LeBron James' career average. How is this even debatable that Kobe is a decent teammate when compared to LeBron?
I'm not disagreeing, I was just disagreeing with what you said about Jordan. Jordan was just as bad as Kobe, just smarter in the PR department. Kobe is a very unusual person who doesn't get on with his teammates too well. The book "The Show" about the Lakers, has a lot of interesting interviews with them.

I think LeBron is a great teammate and seems to be a decent guy too. I think Kobe is ultimately more talented, but I think LeBron has a better chance of having more impact on the game.

By the way, that book I mentioned does not paint a pretty picture of Shaq, either. Apparently he was pretty shitty to Kobe right from the start. They were probably equally at fault.

[BWJACKETS]

All I have been hearing/reading is how great LeBron James is since his one shining moment in Game 5 against Detroit. Before the series started everyone here thought James would tear Bruce a new asshole, they thought he could singlehandedly cause headaches for the Spurs, and they thought his team should be taken seriously. People on this forum actually think the Cavaliers could beat the Spurs.

Alright, does anyone here really think this LeBron is better than Kobe Bryant? There isn't a single thing LeBron can do that Kobe probably could not do a little bit better. LeBron is shooting just .425 in these playoffs and in his last 9 games he has broken 30 points only twice. Kobe Bryant has been put in a similar position with his team for the past 3 seasons and he has never had that rough of a stretch....and you could make the argument that Kobe Bryant's teammates are worse.Factor in that Kobe plays in a tougher conference, and I see no comparison. Kobe is a much better shooter, he is much smarter with the basketball, he can also pass very well, and he is a much better defender than LeBron.

Would a Spurs/Lakers match up honestly concern anyone here? Hell a weaker Spurs team beat them when they had Shaq and Kobe (and '03 Kobe > '07 LeBron).

Dwayne Wade. He is just as good of a passer as LeBron (check his stats in the playoffs last year) he is a much better shooter (doesn't take much) and he is just as good at both getting to the rim and finishing. Overall, Wade is a much more efficient, and ultimately a better player. Frankly I cant think of one thing that LeBron does that you cant argue Wade does just as well if not better, maybe LeBron is a better rebounder, but Wade gets a lot of boards in big games too.

Carmelo Anthony. He gets a bad wrap on this board because of his off court issues, but its pretty easy to see that he is a much more dangerous scorer than LeBron. In the 5 games he played against the spurs he averaged over 28 points per game (that's more than lebron has averaged in any series) shooting 48 percent from the field, and that's against a team that plays defense. Carmelo is just as explosive (if not moreso) and a much better shooter from all over the court than LeBron. (and dont forget he is apparently the most clutch player in the league, hitting the highest field goal percentage of any NBA player in the end of games). Carmelo doesnt control the ball as much as LeBron so we do see passing as a major part of his game, but against the spurs in the playoffs he grabbed a lot of boards and played relatively well on the defensive end.

LeBron to me is the essence of an overhyped, decent player on a shitty team. I guarantee that Carmelo would shit on the cavs in a 7 game series, and I highly doubt the Cavs could have beaten a single team the Spurs played in the western conference playoffs.

The best wing players in the league according to me:
1) Kobe
2) Wade
3) Carmelo

Don't let the hype confuse you

You came up with all of that based on one game? Man, you must be really smart!

Come on man, your entire post is a joke. James has one bad game and you think he isn't good. Watch, he will come back with a big game and let's see if the Cavs don't win Game 2. Certainly if he performs well the Cavs have a chance to win any one of these games, as a team they just didn't know how to deal with the hype of the finals in game one.

[ChumpDumper]

Lebron is a very good basketball player.

[BWJACKETS]

I do not think it is impossible for Kobe to lead a shitty team without Shaq to the finals if he were in the Eastern conference, ESPECIALLY if his team was in this year's eastern conference, and even moreso if he played the wizards at any point in his playoff run.

I know its a dead horse, but it is what it is.

You are entitled to your own opinion, but if it was so easy than why haven't there been any teams in the East who have done exactly what you have said? Hell, look at Gilbert Arenas in Washington. Arenas may not be quite as good as Kobe but he is that same kind of player who can just shoot the lights out, and furthermore he has Butler and Jamison, two guys who comprise a much better #2 and #3 option than Kobe has in LA. The fact of the matter is, you have to have a good team rather than a good player to make it to the finals out of either conference, it just isn't easy to waltz right into the NBA Finals any way you break it down.

[tim_duncan_fan]

You are entitled to your own opinion, but if it was so easy than why haven't there been any teams in the East who have done exactly what you have said?


The simple answer to this question is that the only players in the East even close to Kobe are surprise, surprise: Wade and James.

Wade won last year and was injured this year and that injury left only James to run through the conference.

[MadDog73]

LeBron is the PG of the Cavs the same way Duncan is the PG of the spurs, the offense runs through him

Jesus, you make SpursFans look stupid.

Aren't you the same guy who called out Duncan a few playoffs ago?

The Spurs offense runs through Tony Parker, who outscored Tim in the first game of the Finals, and is consistently the second best scorer AFTER Tim.

Yes, Tim gets the ball, he's the Spurs best player, but the offense still runs through Parker.

[MadDog73]

so while all of you focus on making excuses for why LeBron doesn't preform as well as Kobe or Wade im sitting here dumbfounded.


And where are Kobe and Wade now?

Dumbfuck.

[Thunder Dan]

Let me know when Ilgauskas starts making movies, becomes deputized, and cuts a track with the Fu Schnickens or whatever.

haha, I think the Big Z is waiting until after his basketball career to start his rap career

[tim_duncan_fan]

And where are Kobe and Wade now?

Dumbfuck.


Wade was held back by a couple of injuries and Kobe plays in a much more competitive conference.

[Thunder Dan]

Hypothetical Questions

1)If Z was say, a 7'1 325lb Center in his prime, and kept any other player from getting doubled or triple teamed, would Lebron look like a better player in your eyes?

2) If Lebron played with the same person listedn above, as well as very seasoned vets. such as: Gary Payton(who doesn't start, but would for the Cavs), Antoine Walker, and Alonzo Mourning (who is also better than Z). Would Lebron look better than he does right now?

Your not holding all else equal. It might appear that Lebron isn't as good as everyone you mention, but you can only be so good when your team is shit. It's like if Tom Brady or Peyton Manning were playing for the Browns or Cardinals..do you think they would appear to be as good as they are?

[Thunder Dan]

so let me get this straight ? - Damon Jones looked like an All-star with Wade and Shaq but with Lebron he cannot even get on the court? Do you somehow think that validates Lebron's greatness? To me it is the exact opposite. Damon Jones -- Larry Hughes - both of them far worse off as Cavs...Lebron has not done anything to benefit either one of them

a dominate center that commands doubles in the paint helps outside shooters (Damon Jones) and slashers (Larry Hughes). you should have learned that in Basketball 101.


Damon Jones doesn't play because he's a defensive liability and that's what the Cavs are focused on. Gibson shoots just as good and is better on D, and Eric Snow is alot better on D... Therefore they see the minutes that would go to Jones.

Hughes.... Man, I don't know what his problem is. His whole game was his athleticism, I guess all the injuries he's had has slowed him down alot.

Your right about his defense, but the reason he played and Miami was becuase he shot a high three point percentage down the stretch of the 2005 season. The reason the Cavs don't play him is becuase he hasn't hit a three since down the stretch of the 2005 season with Miami.

Hence his nickname given to him by the TNT Crew "The Monster that Shaq Built"

[MadDog73]

Wade was held back by a couple of injuries and Kobe plays in a much more competitive conference.

Well, if Kobe or Wade > Lebron, that shit shouldn't matter.

FACT: Right now, LeBron > Kobe.

That's not saying he's better in the regular season, or will be better next year.

But LeBron > fishing.

[tim_duncan_fan]

Well, if Kobe or Wade > Lebron, that shit shouldn't matter.


Of course it matters. Injuries can and do hamper players and Kobe plays against stronger teams in the playoffs. These guys are better than LeBron. The Spurs couldn't even dream of holding Kobe to 14 points.

You're right though LeBron>fishing and right now Kobe and Wade are fishing.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Jesus, you make SpursFans look stupid.

Aren't you the same guy who called out Duncan a few playoffs ago?

The Spurs offense runs through Tony Parker, who outscored Tim in the first game of the Finals, and is consistently the second best scorer AFTER Tim.

Yes, Tim gets the ball, he's the Spurs best player, but the offense still runs through Parker.


Watch much Spurs basketball there chief?

Put your foot in your mouth much?

[RobinsontoDuncan]

So who still thinks LeBron is better than kobe?

[Cry Havoc]

So who still thinks LeBron is better than kobe?

Kobe's numbers this year in the NBA finals are slightly worse than LeBron's: 0 points, 0 boards, 0 steals, 0 assists, 0 blocks, in 0 minutes.

So yeah, give me the 22 year old who's struggling with his first finals over the egomaniac who has no clue how to lead a TEAM of players any fucking day of the week.

[thewatcher]

kobe = Lejoke James x 30

[PlaneFast]

Easy way to answer who's better:

If you had to trade Tim Duncan for a player, straight up, who would it be?

Carmelo, Wade, LeBron, or Kobe?

Right now, I'd choose LeBron, easy. He's young, can score, makes teammates better. His only issue for me is ego, but we are talking superstars here.

In fact, if I Cleveland offered LeBron for Duncan today, I'd take it in a heartbeat.

Tim's getting old. Drop BronBron into the Spurs system (which they've been trying to emulate in Cleveland) and we'd have another 4 championships in 9 years. I don't thing Tim would last that long.

Would I trade for Carmelo? Hell no. Wade? Hell no. I'm amazed any of you guys even consider them in the same class as LeBron (other than the same draft class). LBJ is guaranteed HOF. Wade/Carmelo, not so.

PlaneFast.com

[milkyway21]

team leaders while on bench - notice the difference:
http://photo.worldnews.com/PhotoArchive//2007/01/24/66cd5ea445b787057c166c3738325e46-grande.jpg
LeBron biting his nails...

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20070611/thumb.9b6d91a8c2724b4b8a83a36d21514668.nba_finals_ cavaliers_spurs_basketball_saa224.jpg
Duncan cheering for his Spurs.

LeBron still needs to study leadership skills from Duncan.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Kobe's numbers this year in the NBA finals are slightly worse than LeBron's: 0 points, 0 boards, 0 steals, 0 assists, 0 blocks, in 0 minutes.

So yeah, give me the 22 year old who's struggling with his first finals over the egomaniac who has no clue how to lead a TEAM of players any fucking day of the week.


Your intellectual prowess is overwhelming.

Obviously the Lakers aren't in the finals, they play in the western conference (the spurs are representing that particular conference in the finals)

In order to get to the finals they would have to beat the Spurs and Suns and Jazz, something the Cavaliers could not do either.




Oh and BTW, this isnt a discussion of who's younger, its a discussion of who's better. The point of this thread is that LeBron doesn't deserve the hype because there are players in the league right now that play his position that are better than he is

[ducks]

kobe and the lakers would easily have been to the finals facing the exact teams cavs faced

[mathbzh]

I don't care, none can match the Spurs.

[hater]

Melo plays with AI which take scoring pressure off him and LeBron has a much better all round game. He is still a great player but not as great as LBJ IMO atm.

Melo gave us headaches in 2005 when AI was not in the picture.

Melo >>>> Lebronze

[hater]

Duncan > Kobe > Melo > Lebron > Wade

[MadDog73]

Do people still think Tony doesn't run the offense?



And I don't think we've seen the last of LeBron. He'll score 30+ in Cleveland.

[ambchang]

Melo gave us headaches in 2005 when AI was not in the picture.

Melo >>>> Lebronze
No he didn't. Melo had 19.2/5.4/2 in 2005 on 42% shooting in 5 games. In fact, people can't stop talking about how Melo had the Spurs figured out this year without realizing that it was AI who was the focus of the Spurs defense.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Care to change your position Timvp?

[Thunder Dan]

Lebron almost had a triple double last night, why would anyone changes their mind to say he sucks? If anything was proven last night it was that his supporting cast sucks ass and it's amazing he does as well as he does with that garbage on the floor.