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I wonder if Manu couldn't be a better player than LeBron if he was the star of his team
All I have been hearing/reading is how great LeBron James is since his one shining moment in Game 5 against Detroit. Before the series started everyone here thought James would tear Bruce a new asshole, they thought he could singlehandedly cause headaches for the Spurs, and they thought his team should be taken seriously. People on this forum actually think the Cavaliers could beat the Spurs.
Alright, does anyone here really think this LeBron is better than Kobe Bryant? There isn't a single thing LeBron can do that Kobe probably could not do a little bit better. LeBron is shooting just .425 in these playoffs and in his last 9 games he has broken 30 points only twice. Kobe Bryant has been put in a similar position with his team for the past 3 seasons and he has never had that rough of a stretch....and you could make the argument that Kobe Bryant's teammates are worse.Factor in that Kobe plays in a tougher conference, and I see no comparison. Kobe is a much better shooter, he is much smarter with the basketball, he can also pass very well, and he is a much better defender than LeBron.
Would a Spurs/Lakers match up honestly concern anyone here? a weaker Spurs team beat them when they had Shaq and Kobe (and '03 Kobe > '07 LeBron).
Dwayne Wade. He is just as good of a passer as LeBron (check his stats in the playoffs last year) he is a much better shooter (doesn't take much) and he is just as good at both getting to the rim and finishing. Overall, Wade is a much more efficient, and ultimately a better player. Frankly I cant think of one thing that LeBron does that you cant argue Wade does just as well if not better, maybe LeBron is a better rebounder, but Wade gets a lot of boards in big games too.
Carmelo Anthony. He gets a bad wrap on this board because of his off court issues, but its pretty easy to see that he is a much more dangerous scorer than LeBron. In the 5 games he played against the spurs he averaged over 28 points per game (that's more than lebron has averaged in any series) shooting 48 percent from the field, and that's against a team that plays defense. Carmelo is just as explosive (if not moreso) and a much better shooter from all over the court than LeBron. (and dont forget he is apparently the most clutch player in the league, hitting the highest field goal percentage of any NBA player in the end of games). Carmelo doesnt control the ball as much as LeBron so we do see passing as a major part of his game, but against the spurs in the playoffs he grabbed a lot of boards and played relatively well on the defensive end.
LeBron to me is the essence of an overhyped, decent player on a ty team. I guarantee that Carmelo would on the cavs in a 7 game series, and I highly doubt the Cavs could have beaten a single team the Spurs played in the western conference playoffs.
The best wing players in the league according to me:
1) Kobe
2) Wade
3) Carmelo
Don't let the hype confuse you
I wonder if Manu couldn't be a better player than LeBron if he was the star of his team
LeBron >>>>>>>>> Melo.
way to back up your argument there, i can see your basketball knowledge and it is quite overwhelming.
Melo plays with AI which take scoring pressure off him and LeBron has a much better all round game. He is still a great player but not as great as LBJ IMO atm.
Ummmmm...Carmelo put up more points per game before AI got to Denver.
I don't think anyone here is dissing Lebron. It's just that he has been hyped up so much by the media that he can not accomplish what is expected of him singlehandedly.
The thing that is different with Lebron when it compares to Melo and Wade is that Lebron's team is trash other than him. Dwayne Wade has Shaq who draws a double alot. , Damon Jones looked like an All-Star with Shaq, now he sees anywhere from 1 second to 2 minutes playing time a game. So if you hold all else equal Lebron should be up in those 3, not saying he is the best, but saying that your not looking at the whole picture. You get no argument from me as Kobe being 1, but remember Kobe wasn't that great his first couple years in the NBA, and Lebron IS 22, probably younger than you.
Melo>>>>Lebron?
...even I wouldn't go THAT far.
No, I think the Wade and Kobe point is well taken and I agree. But not Melo. Dude hasn't proven he can do in the NBA. He has MORE THAN ENOUGH talent surrounding him and they didn't even put up a fight against us, IMO.
You have a good argument for Kobe, but I would not say Kobe is a better passer than Lebron. Lebron has that vision in a basketball player that really can't be taught. He understands spacing on the floor very well, and his leadership comes with the trust in his teammates, no matter how much they suck. The same cannot be said for Kobe.
Wade is a good decision maker, and I would say on the same level as Lebron. However, having an over the hill Shaq is still better than having Z on your team, any day. As much as the Mavs tried to defend Wade, they still didn't have their whole defense designed around him, like the Pistons and the Spurs are trying to do, and I would go out and say that the Spurs this year are a MUCH better defensive team than Melo last year.
As for Melo, he can score and do nothing else. In the Spurs series, Melo was largely single teamed because the Spurs know that he can only hurt them with scoring, and cannot score enough to beat the Spurs single handledly. The attention was on AI, with multiple waves of defenders going at him, make him take difficult shots while cutting off his passing lanes.
James is seeing the same defensive scheme right now, and he is struggling mightily with it. But still, it's just one game. Given how well he responded in the Pistons series, I will not be surprised he will have a string of enormous games vs. the Spurs in the series, and getting a couple of wins in the process.
I will rank the wings:
1) Kobe
2a) Lebron
2b) Wade
3) AI
4) T-Mac (when not injured)
5) Melo
Of course, that is not counting PGs like Kidd and Nash, given we are talking strictly wings. And no, AI ain't no PG.
Over the Hill Shaq> over the hill Z
plus I think Vince Carter should be on there somewhere
Kobe is above them all bearing in mind he has longer time to develop. Wade is a great player and probably just a bit ahead after winning finals last year. If LeBron can lead his team to finals victory (Which i would love to happen) he would catapult ahead of Wade IMO.
Vince chokes in playoffs...
I don't think the argument is best swingmen in the playoffs. If that were the case Melo's name would probably never be mentioned
No way you can put LeBron ahead of wade, even when Shaq has been injured and it has been just wade he has consistantly preformed better both in the regular season and the playoffs.
And none of the arguments about why LeBron is better than carmelo make any sense, he averages 4 apg and he doesn't handle the ball all that much.
If Carmelo held the ball for 14 of every 24 seconds im sure he could make a few nice passes. We doubled AI because he is a PG and loves to dominate the ball so we tried to force him into turnovers, the same way we did against phoenix and Utah.
LeBron is the Cavs PG, so he gets all the pressure.
That certainly doesnt mean he's better than Melo.
(Oh and btw, Carmelo hasnt done anything in the playoffs because he has never got to play pushover teams like the raptors, wizards, or nets.
Lebron doesn't play point, and the fact that you claim he does throws out any credibility of your arguments to say he isn't a good swingman
LeBron is the PG of the Cavs the same way Duncan is the PG of the spurs, the offense runs through him
as does the Heat's offense runs through Shaq, then he passes out when doubled, the Wade is quick enough to get out of closing defenders. See Lebron just has 2 guys on him at all times, if not three, and if they have a guy on him, they have 2 guys spying on him for when he does get the ball. Wade has a luxury of Shaq. Not saying Wade isnt a great player, but your not being fair to the arument. Again, nobody is going to double team Z, and the rest of the Cavs fall somewhere inbetween and decent, most migrating towards the former.
It amazes me to see all the Nuggets love when they havn't done anything ever. They cry that Denver doesn't geographically fall in the eastern United States, then complain that Ohio isn't considered the West. Then they try to make arguements that the leftovers of the 2003 draft are better than Lebron, who again, plays on a ty ass team.
I'd put LeBron over Wade and Melo. Just my .02
If Manu was on another team and was the the #1 guy, I believe we would realllly see greatness. As the #1 option, Manu would get lots of triple doubles, highlights, clutch play and would be the ultimate leader being unselfish and knowing when to take over.
Charles Barkley has said that on another team Manu would average 25 points a game. I believe that. He'd be a huge star. I don't care what any doubters say. Manu Ginobili lead his team to the Olympic Gold over the USA. That really means something. Boys got more skill than even some Spurs fans give him credit for.
This is Denver fans:
You know when you win a contest of some sort, but you don't win the first prize, say a Ferarri you get the 2nd prize say a Buick Lemans, or the third prize a Dodge Dart, your try to justify why getting a Dodge dart is better than a Ferrari for like better gas milage, or less taxes, or lower insurance costs, but you know you would rather have the Ferrari, its like that.
What are you talking about? Lebron averaged 25.7/9.2/8.5 vs. the Pistons. Sure the Pistons didn't perform up to expectations, but they are definitely a good team. And when he had to play pushover teams, he averaged 24.7/7.3/8.5 vs the Nets, and 27.8/8.5/7.5 vs. the Wiz, for a playoff average of 25.1/8.2/8 in the whole playoffs, these are SICK numbers, even against JV league.
Melo against the Spurs w single coverage? 26.8/8.6/1.2. And why does it not make any sense? You measured Kobe's and Wade's passing ability vs. Lebron, why can't we measure Melo's when he truly sucked in that department? Is Melo is better scorer? That is arguable, but he is definitely not as good a passer, or leader for that matter. You have to come up with a consistent criteria to measure these players, you can't say that Wade > Lebron because he won more, Kobe > Lebron because he has more moves, and Carmelo > Lebron because he scores more. I can use the same method and say that Lebron > Wade because he rebounds more and has a better shooting percentage, and Lebron > Kobe because he passes more and rebounds better.
Last point, the reason Melo doesn't handle the rock as often as James, despite playing a similar position, probably tells you why he is not as good as Lebron.
Manu is way too out of control and inconsistent to be a franchise player, and he doesn't have the durability to battle for 35 to 38 minutes the whole season. I would put him on the Joe Johnson level as a franchise guy.
Melo and Kobe came into the NBA with polished offensive skills. You don't really learn that stuff in the NBA, you already have it. As Chuck said: "If you can't shoot by now, you never will". People like LeBron and Parker and Bruce can improve their shot, but they will never reach the transcendent money level of someone like Kobe (IMO). Of course, Jordan did improve his shot quite a bit.
I think it's fair to say Kobe is better than LeBron at this point. Everyone got excited about LeBron putting up 40, but let's not forget that Kobe recently put up 80.
It could be argued that what Kobe accomplished with the dredges of the Lakers the last few years is comparable to what LeBron has done. Yeah, he got to the finals, but who's impressed? The question is, did he beat the Pistons or did they decline? Perhaps the only way to truly answer that is to beat the Spurs, or at least put up a damn good fight.
I'm not so sure that Melo, given his own Eastern conference team, wouldn't perform just as well as Wade or LeBron. He seems a little less mentally with it and professional, so maybe not. But he is right on their level. I disagree with the poster about Iverson. We didn't try to stop Melo because we couldn't stop Melo--we knew we could stop Iverson so we did that.
Yeah but Melo doesn't play defense.
I'd put Lebron in front of Wade as well, but Kobe's untouchable in that 1 spot.
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