Duncan vs. KG facts.

[da_suns_fan__]

According to Statsoverload.com, in head-to-head matchups between the Timberwolves and Spurs, Garnett has averaged 21.7 points to Duncan's 20.3, outrebounded him 12.1 to 11.2, averaged 5.1 assists to Duncan's 2.8 and shot 52.6 percent to Duncan's 49.1.

Oh, and Duncan had 251 fouls in those games. Garnett has been whistled 215 times.

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/columns/articles/0624p2main0625-ON.html

So much for Duncan "owning Garnett". :lol :lol



Heres the latest on the MARION for KG swap:

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/cs-070624smith,1,5654789.column?coll=cs-bulls-headlines


T'wolves finally see light
After many years of prodding, Garnett deal seems in stars

Sam Smith, Chicago Tribune, June 25, 2007

"...Timberwolves general manager Kevin McHale is said to be
interested in only a limited number of prospects in this
draft. Minnesota has the No. 7 pick and McHale supposedly
wants a higher pick, which hurts the Bulls at No. 9. That's
why there is serious talk of a deal with the Celtics, who
have No. 5. Some insist that deal isn't dead yet, and talk
of another trade continues to have legs.

All the particulars aren't established, but the basics are
the Suns get Garnett, the Celtics get Shawn Marion and the
Timberwolves get the No. 5 pick, the Hawks' unprotected
first-round pick for next season, which the Suns hold, the
Suns' two firsts this year (No. 24 and 29) and the expiring
contracts of Kurt Thomas and Theo Ratliff.

The holdup supposedly has been Marion's reluctance to go to
Boston—he has an opt-out clause after next season. But this
is unlike Garnett's refusal. There's a huge market for
Garnett; not so Marion. The Celtics would hold Marion's
"Bird contract" rights. They'd be the only team that could
realistically make up the $17.8 million Marion would give up
if he opts out.

This is a deal that makes sense all around, especially now
that Kobe Bryant has reopened a dialogue with the Lakers and
speculation has the Lakers making an offer to Minnesota for
Garnett. He lives in Malibu and he and Bryant are said to
talk frequently, getting together recently to discuss
playing together.

But the Lakers don't have the draft picks to entice
Minnesota, and you can be sure the Suns wouldn't want to see
Bryant and Garnett together in their division.

You also could see the Mavs getting involved—Garnett for
Dirk Nowitzki? Minnesota finally seems to understand it's
time to move forward.

The Timberwolves would have two top 7 picks this year, and
with the '08 Atlanta pick they would have a good chance to
be in the lottery next year. They also would have oodles of
salary cap room coming up for big free agents due on the
market. And even if big-time guys aren't going to Minnesota,
saving $60 million isn't bad.

I'd have to commend Minnesota management. And it would be
worth a shot for Boston. The Celtics looked better playing
quicker and smaller with Al Jefferson at center at the end
of last season, and there's no way they're moving Paul
Pierce, who's 30, has a huge contract and is a favorite of
owner Wyc Grousbeck.

A front line of Pierce, Marion and Jefferson would be
intriguing and capable of fulfilling GM Danny Ainge's dream
of playing fast. And where would Marion go? Who under the
salary cap is going to invest their future in a 30-year-old
Marion in 2008?

OK, I'm in..."

[ChumpDumper]

If it's stats you want, go with KG.

If you want championships, go with Duncan.

[SAtown]

Garnett has only stepped out of the first round of the playoffs once in his career. Who gives a shit how he's done vs Duncan in a bunch of regular season matchups? I hope you didn't waste too much time posting this

[da_suns_fan__]

If it's stats you want, go with KG.

If you want championships, go with Duncan.

Knew THAT was coming!!!

"Ok ok...so Duncan doesn't outplay KG, but we meant that Duncan owns KG when it comes to rings".

:lol :lol

[Spurminator]

2002 Forum.

[da_suns_fan__]

Garnett has only stepped out of the first round of the playoffs once in his career. Who gives a shit how he's done vs Duncan in a bunch of regular season matchups? I hope you didn't waste too much time posting this

"You smell that, Rabbit?"

"Fear."

[ChumpDumper]

Duncan > KG :lol :lol

[ChumpDumper]

Duncan never owned KG statistically, this is well known to people who actually followed KG before his name was mentioned in a rumor for the Suns.

The natural response is "So what?"

You have to prove why it matters, because it hasn't mattered for a decade.

[da_suns_fan__]

And yet, Everyone knows and loves KG while most people don't have a clue who Tim Duncan is.

Why is that?

[FromWayDowntown]

And yet, Everyone knows and loves KG while most people don't have a clue who Tim Duncan is.

Why is that?

People dislike champions, I guess.

[E20]

Here's some facts:

TD > KG.

TD's career Stats > KG's

TD's rings > KG's

TD's accolades > KG's

TD's Sportmanship > KG's

TD > KG

[ChumpDumper]

And yet, Everyone knows and loves KG while most people don't have a clue who Tim Duncan is.

Why is that?And why does that matter?

[monosylab1k]

And yet, Everyone knows and loves KG while most people don't have a clue who Tim Duncan is.

What?

[E20]

And yet, Everyone knows and loves KG while most people don't have a clue who Tim Duncan is.

Why is that?
Why does that matter? And why does Tim Duncan get more votes in the All-Star game than Kevin Garnett?

[da_suns_fan__]

Why does that matter? And why does Tim Duncan get more votes in the All-Star game than Kevin Garnett?

They must not teach arithmetic in Podunk, Texas.

http://www.insidehoops.com/all-star-voting-results.shtml

:lol :lol

[ChumpDumper]

Still waiting for sunfan's explanation why individual stats and fan recognition mean anything when it comes to winning NBA championships.

[da_suns_fan__]

Still waiting for sunfan's explanation why individual stats and fan recognition mean anything when it comes to winning NBA championships.


Who said it did?

Spurs fans claimed that Duncan owned KG every time he played him. I completely DESTROYED that theory.

[PM5K]

Waiting for an explanation as to why one player gets more credit than another similar player statistically when one player is surrounded by All-Star and Finals MVP caliber players and the other is surrounded by bums....

[ChumpDumper]

Who said it did?So it doesn't?
Spurs fans claimed that Duncan owned KG every time he played him.You'll have to link that. I haven't really seen that here.

[monosylab1k]

They must not teach arithmetic in Podunk, Texas.

http://www.insidehoops.com/all-star-voting-results.shtml

:lol :lol

wow!... 1.6 million votes for beloved "America's Baller" Kevin Garnett and 1.4 million for the virtual unknown Tim Duncan....now THAT is a huge difference....

[Marcus Bryant]

Let me know when KG is able to win a championship, let alone four.

[lebomb]

Tim Duncan Makes His Team And Teammates Better, Kg Doesnt


/thread :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes

[Spurminator]

And I still say Clyde Drexler > Michael Jordan.

[ducks]

duncan has had draft picks kg has not
but kg does not want it late duncan does

[da_suns_fan__]

So it doesn't?You'll have to link that. I haven't really seen that here.


It doesn't matter if KG winds up in Phoenix. Duncan has owned him for his entire career, and a change of address won't change that.

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72195&page=2&pp=26

[lebomb]

duncan has had draft picks kg has not



KG was surrounded by a pretty good team about 4-5yrs ago...with Joe Smith (before his decline) and they STILL couldnt get it done.



:rolleyes

[ChumpDumper]

Duncan has owned him for his entire careerThe type of ownage wasn't specified, so in several very real aspects, this statement is true.

[Spurminator]

Career ownership <> Statistical superiority in games played against each other.

I mean, duh.

[E20]

They must not teach arithmetic in Podunk, Texas.

http://www.insidehoops.com/all-star-voting-results.shtml

:lol :lol
Okay that was my bad, I mixed up 2006 and 2007. In 2006 TD started and KG did not.

http://www.nba.com/allstar2006/

Tim Duncan has started in every All-Star game he's played, while KG hasn't.

[lebomb]

Ok.....simple question.

Who would you rather have as your PF...........Tim or KG.

To me its an absolute NO brainer.....Tim D. period.

[monosylab1k]

Joe Smith (before his decline)

:lol

Joe Smith was in decline the day he got drafted. If Joe Smith is the second best player on a team, that team can't be good.

[Xylus]

Ok.....simple question.

Who would you rather have as your PF...........Tim or KG.

To me its an absolute NO brainer.....Tim D. period.
I think he was responding to people saying that Duncan owns Garnett in head-to-head matchups, not which player is better.

[FromWayDowntown]

I also suspect that part of the reason that KG has better numbers in that matchup than Duncan does is that KG plays way more minutes in regular season games than Duncan ever does.

In fact, I went back and checked. In 10 years of regular season matchups between the teams, Duncan has played more minutes per game than Duncan in only 2 seasons (00-01 and 02-03). In some seasons, the difference isn't even close:

98 -- Duncan 37.3; Garnett 40.0 (Garnett +2.7 mpg)
99 -- Duncan 37.8; Garnett 39.0 (Garnett +1.2 mpg)
00 -- Duncan 40.0; Garnett 40.0 (EVEN)
01 -- Duncan 44.8; Garnett 42.8 (Duncan +2.0 mpg)
02 -- Duncan 37.0; Garnett 37.3 (Garnett +0.3 mpg)
03 -- Duncan 42.3; Garnett 42.0 (Duncan +0.3 mpg)
04 -- Duncan 37.3; Garnett 39.0 (Garnett +1.7 mpg)
05 -- Duncan 32.0; Garnett 34.3 (Garnett +2.3 mpg)
06 -- Duncan 33.5; Garnett 38.7 (Garnett +5.2 mpg)
07 -- Duncan 34.0; Garnett 44.0 (Garnett +10.0 mpg)

Is it really that surprising that a guy who plays more minutes would have superior numbers? I suppose, if anything, it's probably a testament to Duncan that he's as close as he is to Garnett over that time without having had the benefit of those extra minutes that KG plays against the Spurs. It might not be much in some seasons, but extra time on the floor certainly creates additional opportunities to put up numbers; and it's not inconceivable that in some of those relatively close years, Garnett's extra minute or two is sufficient for him to grab another board and score another bucket, which in the end is really the only difference between the players in those categories.

[lebomb]

I think he was responding to people saying that Duncan owns Garnett in head-to-head matchups, not which player is better.

1pt here.....1 rebound there......so what. TD won about 95% of those games......LMAO. :lol

[mardigan]

duncan has had draft picks kg has not

Oh, you mean like the late 1st and late 2nd that turned out to be Parker and Ginobil? The T-Wolves could have drafted both of those players.
When was the last time the SPurs had a high 1st round pick?
Meanwhile, the T-Wolves get pretty good picks ever year, and just waste them. So that little excuse is bullshit

[E20]

I also suspect that part of the reason that KG has better numbers in that matchup than Duncan does is that KG plays way more minutes in regular season games than Duncan ever does.

In fact, I went back and checked. In 10 years of regular season matchups between the teams, Duncan has played more minutes per game than Duncan in only 2 seasons (00-01 and 02-03). In some seasons, the difference isn't even close:

98 -- Duncan 37.3; Garnett 40.0 (Garnett +2.7 mpg)
99 -- Duncan 37.8; Garnett 39.0 (Garnett +1.2 mpg)
00 -- Duncan 40.0; Garnett 40.0 (EVEN)
01 -- Duncan 44.8; Garnett 42.8 (Duncan +2.0 mpg)
02 -- Duncan 37.0; Garnett 37.3 (Garnett +0.3 mpg)
03 -- Duncan 42.3; Garnett 42.0 (Duncan +0.3 mpg)
04 -- Duncan 37.3; Garnett 39.0 (Garnett +1.7 mpg)
05 -- Duncan 32.0; Garnett 34.3 (Garnett +2.3 mpg)
06 -- Duncan 33.5; Garnett 38.7 (Garnett +5.2 mpg)
07 -- Duncan 34.0; Garnett 44.0 (Garnett +10.0 mpg)

Is it really that surprising that a guy who plays more minutes would have superior numbers? I suppose, if anything, it's probably a testament to Duncan that he's as close as he is to Garnett over that time without having had the benefit of those extra minutes that KG plays against the Spurs. It might not be much in some seasons, but extra time on the floor certainly creates additional opportunities to put up numbers; and it's not inconceivable that in some of those relatively close years, Garnett's extra minute or two is sufficient for him to grab another board and score another bucket, which in the end is really the only difference between the players in those categories.
Duncans career stats are still slightly better even with the less minutes he's played.

[PM5K]

KG was surrounded by a pretty good team about 4-5yrs ago...with Joe Smith (before his decline) and they STILL couldnt get it done.



:rolleyes

They've never had a good team, they've had a semi decent team when they lost to the Lakers in the Western Conference Finals, the same Lakers team that beat us 4-2 in the semis.

An important thing to note though is that while Garnett's numbers stayed virtually the same the next year, Cassell's and Sprewell's both declined in many categories, and let's not forget their joke of a coach who has continued to show how much of a joke he is in Detroit, Flip Saunders...

[da_suns_fan__]

I also suspect that part of the reason that KG has better numbers in that matchup than Duncan does is that KG plays way more minutes in regular season games than Duncan ever does.

In fact, I went back and checked. In 10 years of regular season matchups between the teams, Duncan has played more minutes per game than Duncan in only 2 seasons (00-01 and 02-03). In some seasons, the difference isn't even close:

98 -- Duncan 37.3; Garnett 40.0 (Garnett +2.7 mpg)
99 -- Duncan 37.8; Garnett 39.0 (Garnett +1.2 mpg)
00 -- Duncan 40.0; Garnett 40.0 (EVEN)
01 -- Duncan 44.8; Garnett 42.8 (Duncan +2.0 mpg)
02 -- Duncan 37.0; Garnett 37.3 (Garnett +0.3 mpg)
03 -- Duncan 42.3; Garnett 42.0 (Duncan +0.3 mpg)
04 -- Duncan 37.3; Garnett 39.0 (Garnett +1.7 mpg)
05 -- Duncan 32.0; Garnett 34.3 (Garnett +2.3 mpg)
06 -- Duncan 33.5; Garnett 38.7 (Garnett +5.2 mpg)
07 -- Duncan 34.0; Garnett 44.0 (Garnett +10.0 mpg)

Is it really that surprising that a guy who plays more minutes would have superior numbers? I suppose, if anything, it's probably a testament to Duncan that he's as close as he is to Garnett over that time without having had the benefit of those extra minutes that KG plays against the Spurs. It might not be much in some seasons, but extra time on the floor certainly creates additional opportunities to put up numbers; and it's not inconceivable that in some of those relatively close years, Garnett's extra minute or two is sufficient for him to grab another board and score another bucket, which in the end is really the only difference between the players in those categories.

What about the fewer number of fouls?

And you haven't shown how many minutes they've averaged against EACH OTHER, have you?

[lebomb]

They've never had a good team, they've had a semi decent team when they lost to the Lakers in the Western Conference Finals, the same Lakers team that beat us 4-2 in the semis.

An important thing to note though is that while Garnett's numbers stayed virtually the same the next year, Cassell's and Sprewell's both declined in many categories, and let's not forget their joke of a coach who has continued to show how much of a joke he is in Detroit, Flip Saunders...

True....but remember, back then.....it was the Timberwolves the Spurs were most worried about in our division....it wasnt Houston, or Dallas or the Jazz yet.

[Spurminator]

What about the fewer number of fouls?

Maybe KG should be more intense on the defensive end.

[E20]

What about the fewer number of fouls?

And you haven't shown how many minutes they've averaged against EACH OTHER, have you?
90% of the time they don't even guard eachother, they guard the other big.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

I also suspect that part of the reason that KG has better numbers in that matchup than Duncan does is that KG plays way more minutes in regular season games than Duncan ever does.

In fact, I went back and checked. In 10 years of regular season matchups between the teams, Duncan has played more minutes per game than Duncan in only 2 seasons (00-01 and 02-03). In some seasons, the difference isn't even close:

98 -- Duncan 37.3; Garnett 40.0 (Garnett +2.7 mpg)
99 -- Duncan 37.8; Garnett 39.0 (Garnett +1.2 mpg)
00 -- Duncan 40.0; Garnett 40.0 (EVEN)
01 -- Duncan 44.8; Garnett 42.8 (Duncan +2.0 mpg)
02 -- Duncan 37.0; Garnett 37.3 (Garnett +0.3 mpg)
03 -- Duncan 42.3; Garnett 42.0 (Duncan +0.3 mpg)
04 -- Duncan 37.3; Garnett 39.0 (Garnett +1.7 mpg)
05 -- Duncan 32.0; Garnett 34.3 (Garnett +2.3 mpg)
06 -- Duncan 33.5; Garnett 38.7 (Garnett +5.2 mpg)
07 -- Duncan 34.0; Garnett 44.0 (Garnett +10.0 mpg)

Is it really that surprising that a guy who plays more minutes would have superior numbers? I suppose, if anything, it's probably a testament to Duncan that he's as close as he is to Garnett over that time without having had the benefit of those extra minutes that KG plays against the Spurs. It might not be much in some seasons, but extra time on the floor certainly creates additional opportunities to put up numbers; and it's not inconceivable that in some of those relatively close years, Garnett's extra minute or two is sufficient for him to grab another board and score another bucket, which in the end is really the only difference between the players in those categories.

"The winnah... and still champeen of using simple facts to kill stupid arguments: FWD!"

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

And since you probably still have the box scores open, FWD, could you tell us FG%, please?

[da_suns_fan__]

And since you probably still have the box scores open, FWD, could you tell us FG%, please?

Read the original post, dubass.

Duncan loses again.

[Spurminator]

You wouldn't happen to have head to head records would you? Playoffs included, of course.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Read the original post, dubass.

Duncan loses again.

I noticed MPG wasn't listed in your stats quote.

[E20]

There are extraneous factors besides head-to-head stats.

[E20]

Read the original post, dubass.

Duncan loses again.
By your link TD > KG in FG%

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but how can the "head-to-head" matchup be valid if TD and KG have two different numbers of games?

D-S-F, where are those extra 13 games and who did TD go "head-to-head" with?

[ShoogarBear]

Here's a head-up-ass matchup: 2007 Sun Fan vs. 2006 Mav Fan.

[PM5K]

T-Wolves get pretty good picks ever year, and just waste them. So that little excuse is bullshit



First of all, you seem to forget that thanks to Joe Smith and Kevin Mchale the TWolves lost their first round picks for five years, including the year that Tony Parker was drafted, and as far as I know Kevin doesn't actually pick the players the TWolves draft..

[Infamous]

Here are the facts.

T'Wolves has one of the worst GM's in the NBA.

Tim Duncan has always been surrounded with a GREAT supporting cast.

Kevin Garnett HASN'T, his BEST supporting cast was in 2004, why couldn't they win it all that year you say? Well..they got eliminated by the Lakers, THE SAME YEAR THE SPURS GOT ELIMINATED BY THE LAKERS. The same team the Spurs were always eliminated by the Shaq-Kobe era excluding 99 and 03.

Give Garnett a great coach like Pop, give him guards that can penetrate, shooters, dirty work players, and Garnett will win championships.

[samikeyp]

Spurs fans claimed that Duncan owned KG every time he played him.

I am a Spurs fan and have never said that so your implication that all Spurs fans think that is a lie.


So much for Duncan "owning Garnett".

And for Garnett "owning" Duncan which has been posted before and it what you are implying.


Knew THAT was coming!!!

"Ok ok...so Duncan doesn't outplay KG, but we meant that Duncan owns KG when it comes to rings".

So....Championships don't matter?

[ChumpDumper]

:lol Now lakerfan chimes in just as the KG-to-LA article comes up.

Like clockwork.

[samikeyp]

When the NBA decides championships by one on one player matchups....this thread will become relevant.

[Extra Stout]

And yet, Everyone knows and loves KG while most people don't have a clue who Tim Duncan is.

Why is that?
We keep trying to explain to you Suns fans that you win NBA games by scoring more points than the other team, not by winning a fan vote.

[ShoogarBear]

Well..they got eliminated by the Lakers, THE SAME YEAR THE SPURS GOT ELIMINATED BY THE LAKERS. The same team the Spurs were always eliminated by the Shaq-Kobe era excluding 99 and 03.And 00. So 3 out of 6 = always. But who needs math, anyway? Or a point?

Also, no way that a team with Tim Duncan + four guys with pulses ever misses the playoffs.

[FromWayDowntown]

You wouldn't happen to have head to head records would you? Playoffs included, of course.

If you're asking me, in fact, I do -- at least T'Wolves v. Spurs in the TD/KG era:

Since 1997-98, the Spurs are 29-17 (.630) against the T'Wolves. I don't have time right now to take out games in which either Garnett or Duncan did not play, but I'm not sure that there have been too many of those -- less than 5 total, I suspect.

[PM5K]

So....Championships don't matter?

They don't when the playing field isn't fair, there is no way Kevin could be expected to win a Championship with the teammates he had, when was the last time the TWolves were a favorite to win a Championship?

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

If you're asking me, in fact, I do -- at least T'Wolves v. Spurs in the TD/KG era:

Since 1997-98, the Spurs are 29-17 (.630) against the T'Wolves. I don't have time right now to take out games in which either Garnett or Duncan did not play, but I'm not sure that there have been too many of those -- less than 5 total, I suspect.

For some reason, there are 13 missing games according to D-S-F's link.

[samikeyp]

They don't when the playing field isn't fair, there is no way Kevin could be expected to win a Championship with the teammates he had, when was the last time the TWolves were a favorite to win a Championship?

The playing field is fair. The T-Wolves front office has the same resources and same rules and structure the Spurs front office has when it comes to fielding a team. Don't blame the Spurs because the T-Wolves have morons for front office personell.

Bottom line is this....all that matters is winning a title. That is the (or at least should be) the only goal any team or player has. If its not, then those who don't believe that have no business being in pro sports.

[Spurminator]

If you're asking me, in fact, I do

Sorry, I was really asking Sun Fan... I assume he hasn't responded because he's trying to find out where they keep track of wins and losses.

[PM5K]

The playing field is fair. The T-Wolves front office has the same resources and same rules and structure the Spurs front office has when it comes to fielding a team. Don't blame the Spurs because the T-Wolves have morons for front office personell.

Bottom line is this....all that matters is winning a title. That is the (or at least should be) the only goal any team or player has. If its not, then those who don't believe that have no business being in pro sports.

That isn't the bottom line, we aren't comparing the Spurs to the TWolves, we are comparing Kevin Garnett to Tim Duncan.

[samikeyp]

That isn't the bottom line, we aren't comparing the Spurs to the TWolves, we are comparing Kevin Garnett to Tim Duncan.

I agree with that but I was responding to you responding to my earlier post.

[samikeyp]

Oh and for the record and the subject of this thread....

I have always believed that Garnett is the better athlete, but Duncan is the better basketball player.

[mardigan]

First of all, you seem to forget that thanks to Joe Smith and Kevin Mchale the TWolves lost their first round picks for five years, including the year that Tony Parker was drafted, and as far as I know Kevin doesn't actually pick the players the TWolves draft..
No, Im not forgetting.
Im remembering since 98 the Wolves drafting in the 1st round, Rasho with the 17th pick in 98, Wally Sczerbiak with the 6th pick and William Avery with the 14th pick in the sam draft,Ndubi Ebi with the 26th pick in 03, Rashad Mcants in 05 with the 14th pick. Foye seems like the only decent pick they have made in almost 10 years, and even that looks bad after they traded the rookie of the year away.
And I think any idiot realizes that KG didnt make those picks, but the claim that Duncan has had picks while KG has hasnt is a pretty stupid claim. Its not either players fault that they have the front offices that they do

[Spurminator]

Also, no way that a team with Tim Duncan + four guys with pulses ever misses the playoffs.

And that's why, frankly, this debate was over in 2005 at the latest.

Seriously, I defy anyone to name four NBA players that, combined with Duncan, would not be expected to make the Playoffs.

[AnkleBreaker21]

ask anybody in the league, nobody in their right mind would take kg over timmy.

[samikeyp]

And that's why, frankly, this debate was over in 2005 at the latest.

I would agree with that. Up until that point....Garnett's teams had no problem making the playoffs...it was advancing that was their issue, with the exception of 2004.

[PM5K]

If I had to choose I'd probably pick Tim Duncan like many here would, but it's annoying because every time this conversation comes up, and it comes up from time to time, it always ends with people saying that because Tim Duncan has more Championships he's the better player, and I don't see how a team accolade makes one individual player better than another.

[Spurs rock]

Duncan 4 rings
KG 0

That's the only stat that matters.

[AnkleBreaker21]

all this bitching on here about tim from a bitter bitter cry baby sun's fan, wtf

[whottt]

No one seems to want to play with KG, and a lot of his ex-teamates seem to dislike him intensely....

Everyone is always jumping off that ship...

[PM5K]

And that's why, frankly, this debate was over in 2005 at the latest.

Seriously, I defy anyone to name four NBA players that, combined with Duncan, would not be expected to make the Playoffs.

Trenton Hassell - Marko Jaric - Michael Olowokandi - Wally Szczerbiak

[ShoogarBear]

If I had to choose I'd probably pick Tim Duncan like many here would, but it's annoying because every time this conversation comes up, and it comes up from time to time, it always ends with people saying that because Tim Duncan has more Championships he's the better player, and I don't see how a team accolade makes one individual player better than another.Would Michael Jordan be the greatest player of all time if he didn't have six championships?

[PM5K]

Duncan 4 rings
KG 0

That's the only stat that matters.

Idiot...

[samikeyp]

If I had to choose I'd probably pick Tim Duncan like many here would, but it's annoying because every time this conversation comes up, and it comes up from time to time, it always ends with people saying that because Tim Duncan has more Championships he's the better player, and I don't see how a team accolade makes one individual player better than another.

Most people believe that having 4 rings isn't the only reason they think he is better. I think people see it as one of the reasons.

[Spurminator]

Minnesota is 41-49 against Eastern Conference teams in the last three years.

[AnkleBreaker21]

i think if we had garnet instead of duncan all these years, i doubt we would have 4 rings, or shit we might have not made it out of the first round

[Spurminator]

Trenton Hassell - Marko Jaric - Michael Olowokandi - Wally Szczerbiak


Are you kidding? That team plus Duncan is 5th seed at worst.

Can you imagine Wally shooting off a Duncan double team? Deadly.

Hassell's defense would be a lot more successful if he play up on his man and force him baseline because of Duncan's interior presence.

You can do a lot worse than that.

[mardigan]

Trenton Hassell - Marko Jaric - Michael Olowokandi - Wally Szczerbiak
Except players like Jaric and even Olowakandi put up much better numbers before they got to Minny, and upon arrival became much, much worse for some reason

[Leetonidas]

You must be fucking retarded if you don't know who Tim Duncan is. Ask anyone on the street and they'll tell you he's that boring PF for the Spurs.

KG is not a leader. He is not a winner. Tim is a leader. Tim is a winner.

If we're going to go by stats then I guess Amare Stoudemire is better than Tim Duncan.

You're a fucking idiot. Retire your username, dumbass.

[FromWayDowntown]

For some reason, there are 13 missing games according to D-S-F's link.

Showing my work:

1997-98: SA 3-1
1998-99: Tied 2-2
1999 WCFR: SA 3-1
1999-00: Minn 1-3
2000-01: SA 3-1
2001 WCFR: SA 3-1
2001-02: Tied 2-2
2002-03: Tied 2-2
2003-04: Tied 2-2
2004-05: SA 2-1
2005-06: SA 4-0
2006-07: SA 2-1

From that, I get SA 29, MIN 17.

[PM5K]

Are you kidding? That team plus Duncan is 5th seed at worst.

Can you imagine Wally shooting off a Duncan double team? Deadly.

Hassell's defense would be a lot more successful if he play up on his man and force him baseline because of Duncan's interior presence.

You can do a lot worse than that.

So you think that team would be better than the 05-06 Clippers?

[samikeyp]

Honestly I am still a little surprised. I used to regard KG as one of those players that just by himself can get you 50 wins and a playoff spot. The last three seasons, I was wrong.

[Sec24Row7]

Antonio McDyess scares KG...watch him run. Same BS that Melo did... throw a punch and run...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRzShd5jQzg

[Leetonidas]

Here are the facts.

T'Wolves has one of the worst GM's in the NBA.

Tim Duncan has always been surrounded with a GREAT supporting cast.

Kevin Garnett HASN'T, his BEST supporting cast was in 2004, why couldn't they win it all that year you say? Well..they got eliminated by the Lakers, THE SAME YEAR THE SPURS GOT ELIMINATED BY THE LAKERS. The same team the Spurs were always eliminated by the Shaq-Kobe era excluding 99 and 03.

Exactly, which is why Tim doesn't have to score as much. He is not the only go-to player on the Spurs, while on the T-Wolves, Garnett is their first, second, and third option.

[mavs>spurs2]

I'm just curious to see how KG does with a decent team for the first time in his career. And an old washed up version of Sprewell and Cassel doesn't count as having good teammates.

[samikeyp]

The same team the Spurs were always eliminated by the Shaq-Kobe era excluding 99 and 03.

Actually it was quite a different team which eliminated SA in 01 and 02...that Lakers team was better than the 04 version, they finished the job. In 04..they were just finished.

[ChumpDumper]

I'm just curious to see how KG does with a decent team for the first time in his career.Been there, done that.

Lost.

[PM5K]

Except players like Jaric and even Olowakandi put up much better numbers before they got to Minny, and upon arrival became much, much worse for some reason

Olowokandi was never too special to begin with, and was injury plagued in Minnesota.

Jaric was also never that great to begin with, and he got less minutes in Minnesota and his field goal percentage dropped, which has nothing to do with Kevin, Jaric was ten points and six assists at his best, not all that impressive for a starter...

[JamStone]

Duncan wants to make KG feel better about himself so when they play against each other, Duncan handicaps himself and makes his shot tougher by wearing his championship rings on his shooting hand, thereby slightly skewing his shooting touch. He has also strapped his Finals MVP trophies to his legs, thereby giving him a disadvantage at getting rebounds.

[samikeyp]

Olowokandi was never too special to begin with, and was injury plagued in Minnesota.

Hey now!

He was a #1 pick! Of course he was special!

Sincerly,
Pervis Ellison, LaRue Martin and Joe Barry Carroll.
:lmao

[Spurs rock]

Idiot...

Fag.

[Leetonidas]

Wasn't Francisco Elson the one who called Kevin Garnett a homo?

[PM5K]

Fag.

I prefer the term homosexual...

[Spurminator]

So you think that team would be better than the 05-06 Clippers?

Definitely.

[mardigan]

Olowokandi was never too special to begin with, and was injury plagued in Minnesota.

Jaric was also never that great to begin with, and he got less minutes in Minnesota and his field goal percentage dropped, which has nothing to do with Kevin, Jaric was ten points and six assists at his best, not all that impressive for a starter...
Garnett has never made one player he played with better. Meanwhile, Duncan turns late 1st and late 2nd round picks into all-stars. I think that really sums it up

[CubanMustGo]

OK, not too many KG supporters would say that David Robinson > Tim Duncan.

Yet David Robinson DID get a team that could legitimately be described as "DRob + four scrubs" out of the first round more often than not. So, by that measure, DRob >> KG.

Therefore, since TD >= DRob, ipso facto TD >>> KG, Q.E.D.

[Sec24Row7]

If the lakers get KG for ODOM/Bynum... wooptie...


KG is the same type of player as ODOM... like ODOM on steroids... and where did he get them?

Yet another example of Star power over substance...

Who are their role player contributors?

I mean... they have more than the Cavs...

I like Mihm and Walton...

But... jesus... there isnt anyone else...

[PM5K]

Definitely.

I disagree...

[Spurminator]

Therefore, since TD >= DRob, ipso facto TD >>> KG, Q.E.D.

You forgot to say "vis a vis." ;)

[Extra Stout]

In the 2001-02 season, the San Antonio Spurs surrounded Tim Duncan with a David Robinson slowed by an injured back, a scrawny rookie Tony Parker, an immobile Steve Smith, 85-year-old Terry Porter, Danny Ferry, Bruce Bowen, Malik Rose, and Antonio Daniels.

Charles "Spider" Smith started 22 games at small forward for that team.
Mark Bryant started 3 games for that team.

The 2001-02 Spurs went 58-24.

Anybody floating the "KG just didn't have a good enough supporting cast" argument can shove it up their ass.

[PM5K]

Garnett has never made one player he played with better. Meanwhile, Duncan turns late 1st and late 2nd round picks into all-stars. I think that really sums it up

So you don't think Tony and Manu would be All-Start anywhere else?

[Spurminator]

So you don't think Tony and Manu would be All-Start anywhere else?

Not in 2003.

[samikeyp]

So you don't think Tony and Manu would be All-Start anywhere else?

I do. I think their numbers would be better elsewhere because they would be the #1 option on a lot of teams.

[Spurs rock]

I prefer the term homosexual...

Homosexual.

[mavs>spurs2]

Been there, done that.

Lost.

Please tell me you're not talking about 04. That's just hilarious.

[OldDirtMcGirt]

Let me know when KG is able to win a championship, let alone four.

Let me know when KG has a decent supporting cast. I agree that Duncan is better than Garnett, but it's not a huge margin, and Garnett has been viciously screwed over by ownership.

[td4mvp21]

Garnett can put up all the meaningless stats he wants. Duncan's got the rings. Suck it bitches.

[Xylus]

Garnett can put up all the meaningless stats he wants. Duncan's got the rings. Suck it bitches.
Fascinating. :dramaquee

Garnett, Ginobili, Parker would be one hell of a Big Three, especially if Pop was coaching.

[Extra Stout]

Independent of comparisons to Duncan, I rate Kevin Garnett as the fourth-best power forward of all-time, just behind the fat guy on TNT, and just ahead of the incompetent GM of the Timberwolves.

[mavs>spurs2]

Garnett can put up all the meaningless stats he wants. Duncan's got the rings. Suck it bitches.

You do realize that if Duncan was in Garnett's situation, he would also have no rings? Not saying that KG would have 4 if he was with the Spurs, but he would at least have a couple. Don't blame the man for what's out of his control.

[mardigan]

You do realize that if Duncan was in Garnett's situation, he would also have no rings? Not saying that KG would have 4 if he was with the Spurs, but he would at least have a couple. Don't blame the man for what's out of his control.
Or Foye would have been rookie of the year, Hudson would have led the league in 3 pointers, Hassell would have been a defensive player of the year award candidate, Ricky Davis would average over 20, and Eddie Griffin would have never have been caught yanking it

[OldDirtMcGirt]

Or Foye would have been rookie of the year, Hudson would have led the league in 3 pointers, Hassell would have been a defensive player of the year award candidate, Ricky Davis would average over 20, and Eddie Griffin would have never have been caught yanking it

You forgot that Duncan would bring peace to the Middle East and fix world hunger.

[mavs>spurs2]

Or Foye would have been rookie of the year, Hudson would have led the league in 3 pointers, Hassell would have been a defensive player of the year award, Ricky Davis would average over 20, and Eddie Griffin would have never have been caught yanking it

Hudson is streaky

Hassel is a good defender, not great

Ricky Davis is nothing more than a glorified And 1 baller.

And I really don't see what Duncan would have done to stop Griffin from "yanking it" unless Duncan was sucking him off himself.

But nice try though.

[Spurminator]

Garnett, Ginobili, Parker would be one hell of a Big Three, especially if Pop was coaching.

Would they?

I know this is all speculation, just like saying Duncan could make the Playoffs with Garnett's 2006 team, but does KG+Manu+Parker sound like a Championship team to you?

Would KG and Parker even get along?

[mardigan]

Hudson is streaky

Hassel is a good defender, not great

Ricky Davis is nothing more than a glorified And 1 baller.

And I really don't see what Duncan would have done to stop Griffin from "yanking it" unless Duncan was sucking him off himself.

But nice try though.
http://www.usingenglish.com/glossary/sarcasm.html

[OldDirtMcGirt]

Would they?

I know this is all speculation, just like saying Duncan could make the Playoffs with Garnett's 2006 team, but does KG+Manu+Parker sound like a Championship team to you?

Would KG and Parker even get along?

I think it sounds like a championship team. Of course nothing is guarnateed, but with Pop coaching I'd definitely say they'd be a serious contender.

And why wouldn't Parker and KG get along? KG is a pretty good teammate and a pretty patient superstar.

[td4mvp21]

Fascinating. :dramaquee

Garnett, Ginobili, Parker would be one hell of a Big Three, especially if Pop was coaching.

What's fascinating is a Suns fan arguing whether KG is better than Duncan-shouldn't you be bitching about losing to the Spurs? However it is good to know you are taking a break from that.


Anyway, I think it's ridiculous how the teammate argument always comes up. Duncan never had tremendous talent around him until 04-05 (with the exception of Robinson in 97-98, 98-99, 99-00). Duncan won one ring those years. After 2000, Robinson was so injured all the time and was not the same player. Tell me who Duncan had in: 2001-2002, 2002-2003, and 2003-2004, that was a consistent scorer who produced something every night? No one. KG had Hudson and Wally Sczerbiack, Wally was even an all-star one of those years I believe. They were much more consistent than Tony Parker was. KG didn't make it out of the first round, even with those players. Duncan made it to the second in 01-02, and 03-04. He won a 'ship in 02-03. So shut the fuck up about teammates. Garnetts had some, he just chokes when it matters. Duncan wins when it matters. You're going to sit here and argue when Duncan has won so much more than Garnett? Maybe if it was once or twice more than Garnett, sure, you could make an argument. But Duncan has obliterated anything Garnett has ever done. 2 MVPS, 4 Rings, 3 Finals MVPs, etc. The list goes on.

[Spurminator]

KG is a pretty good teammate

I'm not sure I understand where this perception comes from. KG has feuded with teammates on several occasions, and I have a hard time characterizing someone who would punch a rookie for outplaying him in a pickup game as a "good teammate."

He and Wally never got along, and I know Wally isn't exactly a Clubhouse Brent Barry, but I can imagine Tim Duncan making it work somehow. Rasho Nesterovic took a paycut to get out of Minnesota, and it wasn't because of the weather...

[Xylus]

What's fascinating is a Suns fan arguing whether KG is better than Duncan-shouldn't you be bitching about losing to the Spurs? However it is good to know you are taking a break from that.
I never said KG is better than Duncan.

Nor have I bitched about losing to the Spurs.

Do you even know who you're talking to?

[FromWayDowntown]

Let me know when KG has a decent supporting cast. I agree that Duncan is better than Garnett, but it's not a huge margin, and Garnett has been viciously screwed over by ownership.

Until 2005, Duncan had played with 1 guy who had made an All-Star team within the prior 2 years (David Robinson) and at most with 2 guys who had made an All-Star team within the 4 previous years (Robinson and Elliott (1996)).

In 2004, Garnett played in a starting lineup that had 4 guys (Garnett, Sprewell, Cassell, and Szczerbiak) who fit that bill -- each of those guys had made an All-Star team within the prior 4 years. KG played with 3 All-Stars for 3 seasons. His casts probably haven't always been as good as Duncan's historically, but during that time, it's impossible (IMO) to say that Garnett had a worse supporting cast.

[dbreiden83080]

Still dreaming about KG huh Suns fans. Not likely to happen.

[td4mvp21]

I never said KG is better than Duncan.

Nor have I bitched about losing to the Spurs.

Do you even know who you're talking to?

The first part was directed towards you. The second everyone in the threat that wants to say that KG is better or as good as Duncan. Yep, I do know who I'm talking to.

[ChumpDumper]

Please tell me you're not talking about 04. That's just hilarious.I'm talking about his entire career.

It has been hilarious if you can remember back that far.

[Xylus]

The first part was directed towards you. The second everyone in the threat that wants to say that KG is better or as good as Duncan. Yep, I do know who I'm talking to.
Clearly, you don't. Otherwise you wouldn't feel the need to put fabricated words in my mouth.

[dbreiden83080]

What is with this crap about the Celts getting a good deal if they get Marion for their 5th pick. Marion is a guy you want if you are built to win right now, they won 24 games last year for god's sake. They need someone young to try and develop, Marion in my opinion is not that good anyway. Especially at his current price and when he opts out you know he is going to still want a lot of money. How many times does Bowen have to own him in the playoffs before people realize that?

[OldDirtMcGirt]

Until 2005, Duncan had played with 1 guy who had made an All-Star team within the prior 2 years (David Robinson) and at most with 2 guys who had made an All-Star team within the 4 previous years (Robinson and Elliott (1996)).

In 2004, Garnett played in a starting lineup that had 4 guys (Garnett, Sprewell, Cassell, and Szczerbiak) who fit that bill -- each of those guys had made an All-Star team within the prior 4 years. KG played with 3 All-Stars for 3 seasons. His casts probably haven't always been as good as Duncan's historically, but during that time, it's impossible (IMO) to say that Garnett had a worse supporting cast.

In '03-'04, Wally World only played in 28 games and started a whopping zero. Sprewell is a lunatic who averaged 17 points on 40% shooting. Not my idea of an all star caliber player. Cassell is the only good player in that bunch, and even he had an unspectacular season before going down to injury against the Lakers.

You can't even compare Duncan's supporting cast.

[td4mvp21]

In '03-'04, Wally World only played in 28 games and started a whopping zero. Sprewell is a lunatic who averaged 17 points on 40% shooting. Not my idea of an all star caliber player. Cassell is the only good player in that bunch, and even he had an unspectacular season before going down to injury against the Lakers.

You can't even compare Duncan's supporting cast.

Actually, Cassell had the best season of his career that year. He even put up 2 40 point games in the playoffs before his injury.

[MadDog73]

So, are SunsFan and LakersFan ready to say they'd take KG over TD?

'Cause until they say that, I say they're full of shit.

[OldDirtMcGirt]

So, are SunsFan and LakersFan ready to say they'd take KG over TD?

'Cause until they say that, I say they're full of shit.

I don't know anybody who'd say that. But KG does play Timmy pretty well.

[OldDirtMcGirt]

Actually, Cassell had the best season of his career that year. He even put up 2 40 point games in the playoffs before his injury.

Yeah, you're right. I was thinking about the '04-'05 season. My bad.

Regardless, one good player does not make a supporting cast. And Garnett put up ungodly numbers that year too, but I don't know anybody who picked them over the Lakers, even if Cassell was healthy the whole series.

[MadDog73]

I don't know anybody who'd say that. But KG does play Timmy pretty well.


Still, by the tone of this whole thread, you'd think KG owned TD or something.

Meh. As long as Spurs are the best team, it really doesn't matter where KG goes... he still has to get by the Spurs, which are greater than the sum of their parts.

[td4mvp21]

Yeah, you're right. I was thinking about the '04-'05 season. My bad.

Regardless, one good player does not make a supporting cast. And Garnett put up ungodly numbers that year too, but I don't know anybody who picked them over the Lakers, even if Cassell was healthy the whole series.

I think they could have if Cassell was healthy. I think Garnett had his opportunities, though, and his team didn't win. I mean, that was the only year his team even got out of the first round!

[Spurminator]

Regardless, one good player does not make a supporting cast.

Spreewell was good in 2004.

I wouldn't cite 2004 to argue against Garnett's case... He was very good that year and received a well-deserved MVP award. But that was not the only season where there was a sufficient enough supporting cast for a supposed Tim Duncan calibur player to make noise in the postseason.

[PM5K]

Until 2005, Duncan had played with 1 guy who had made an All-Star team within the prior 2 years (David Robinson) and at most with 2 guys who had made an All-Star team within the 4 previous years (Robinson and Elliott (1996)).

In 2004, Garnett played in a starting lineup that had 4 guys (Garnett, Sprewell, Cassell, and Szczerbiak) who fit that bill -- each of those guys had made an All-Star team within the prior 4 years. KG played with 3 All-Stars for 3 seasons. His casts probably haven't always been as good as Duncan's historically, but during that time, it's impossible (IMO) to say that Garnett had a worse supporting cast.

As mentioned, his first season with Cassell and Sprewell which was 03-04 they went to the Western Conference Finals, farther than the Spurs had been that year.

Now go back and look at the next years statistics, between the two of them Spree and Cassell dropped 10PPG and virtually every other stat dropped between the two of them, and Cassell missed 23 games...

Meanwhile Kevins stats were virtually identical...

[Creation88]

don't even mention kg in the same conversation as Tim Duncan. that's an insult.

[Spurminator]

It's with good reason that people cite Duncan's Championship success, despite it sounding oversimplistic. I think in this day and age, Championships are undervalued and often taken for granted.

You can say whatever you want about the supporting casts of Duncan and Garnett, but one of those players was able to carry his team to the Championship four times while the other has made it past the first round once. One of those players is a perennial Championship contender while the other struggles to be a Postseason contender.

Regardless of who has had better teammates, that is a SUBSTANTIAL difference in success, and the fact that we can even DEBATE who has had better suporting casts shows how wide the gap is between the two players on an individual level.

Tim Duncan has won four Championships without the help of another All-NBA teammate. No one is saying Kevin Garnett isn't a great, Hall of Fame player. But Duncan is simply on another level. We're talking all-time elite here.

Duncan has a better coach, and he currently has better teammates, but we're talking about a nearly 30 game average difference in the past three years' regular seasons, and I think it takes a wild imagination to believe KG would have similar success if the roles were reversed.

[K-State Spur]

And yet, Everyone knows and loves KG while most people don't have a clue who Tim Duncan is.

Why is that?

If by "don't have a clue who he is" you mean that most media and fans refer to him as the greatest power forward of all-time.

And if by "everybody knows and loves" you mean that nobody refers to him as the best power forward in his own conference.

Then yes - you are correct.

[AnkleBreaker21]

don't even mention kg in the same conversation as Tim Duncan. that's an insult.
:clap :clap :clap :clap :clap

[DAINTX]

Duncan and KG are both great players. That is an absolute given. Arguing one is significantly superior to the other is an exercise in futility because so many team factors are different. I'd take TD based on the fact that he's won championshiops as a team leader...there is no guesswork there, just outstanding performances in crunch time. But they are very close in so many physical and skill attributes.....picking between them comes down to individual preference. And NOBODY knows how they would work out if each had spent the last 10 years on the other's team. The one thing that is apparent is that some disgruntled Suns fan, finding yet another way to whine, has desparately looked for a topic is manipulate so that he can somehow imagine he is subtlely denigrating a great player like Tim Duncan, a sure HOFer, and by extension, the Spurs team. If there is any "owning", it's the Spurs owning the Suns. That record is very clear.

[Findog]

Duncan > KG, it's not Duncan >>>>> KG. That said, their supporting casts have been very different.

[Spurminator]

I would say it's at least three ">'s" in Duncan's favor.

[Findog]

I would say it's at least three ">'s" in Duncan's favor.

Homer :p:

[OldDirtMcGirt]

I would say it's at least three ">'s" in Duncan's favor.

Duncan is the best power forward of all time, although both players are all time greats (Kevin Garnett, if traded to a contender like Phoenix or Chicago, has a real chance to be the second greatest power forward of all time).

[mjnxn]

And why wouldn't Parker and KG get along? KG is a pretty good teammate and a pretty patient superstar.

Because he hits teamates in practice, right?

[TDMVPDPOY]

TD IS one ring away from a knuckle buster

[bdictjames]

KG has never gotten along perfectly with anyone in his career.

Hell Duncan would make Ricky Davis and Mike James a star if that were his teammates. All Duncan does is command double-teams and fundamental stuff, people know his role. As for Garnett, he does everything, so his teammates cant adjust to that easily

[mavs>spurs2]

I'm talking about his entire career.

It has been hilarious if you can remember back that far.

The man has never in his career had a decent supporting cast.

[toosmallshoes]

Tim Duncan Makes His Team And Teammates Better, Kg Doesnt


/thread :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes

That's a great point. If the Lakers, Minny, Pacers, Celtics trade goes through the Lakers will have not one, but two amazingly talented players who don't make their teammates better. I see that team turning out like a conversation where both people are just waiting for their turn to speak.

[Obstructed_View]

Still waiting for sunfan's explanation why individual stats and fan recognition mean anything when it comes to winning NBA championships.
I'm puzzled as to why you would think a Suns fan would know anything about what it takes to win an NBA championship. Funny that he left out Duncan's 27-14 record head to head with Garnett. We already know the Suns can't win even with more talent. What's KG bring to the conversation again?

[Obstructed_View]

The man has never in his career had a decent supporting cast.
Yet the ONLY team he was ever on that made it past the first round of the playoffs wasn't the most talented. Just so happens that Cassell and Sprewell are winners. Please see my earlier quote about talent. KG has a shitload of it, but that's all he's got.

[Findog]

Yet the ONLY team he was ever on that made it past the first round of the playoffs wasn't the most talented.

Most talented in comparison to what? That was certainly the most talented T-Wolves team. The KG-Marbury-Googs trio was a bit wet behind the ears.

[Brutalis]

If the Wolves are all about themselves, cannot win on a consistent basis, have a bad front office, or whatever... then it's Garnett alone who would know. So any talk on who is a better player in an NBA career you really can't mention Duncan along with Garnett for the simple fact that if you're a good player and want to win, you can try at least one team other than the Wolves he believes in so much.

It's his own fault, and will be compared to players like Kemp, Larry Johnson, Patrick Ewing, and so forth fame wise. Leave the Hakeem, Malone, Duncan, Robinson talk for the legends.

[Brutalis]

sorry if i just owned and killed this threads esophogas

[exstatic]

KG's balls retract up into his abdomen in the fourth Q, so I can see exactly why Sunfan has a Jones for him. He'd fit right in.

KG and Duncan have met twice in the playoffs. 2-0 Duncan.

KG has only advanced past the first round once, and has missed the playoffs for the last several years. A Duncan team has never failed to make the playoffs, and when he plays, they have never failed to advance out of the first round.

[TDMVPDPOY]

a pic of rasho holding championship trophy ends this debate straight away

td won with rasho

now why did KG couldnt?

[mavs>spurs2]

^None of that has anything to do with Duncan's supporting cast throughout his entire career..... :rolleyes

[dbreiden83080]

KG has only advanced past the first round once, and has missed the playoffs for the last several years. A Duncan team has never failed to make the playoffs, and when he plays, they have never failed to advance out of the first round.

That is a big thing for me with KG. I am not asking him to win a title but in the last few years he can't even lead those Wolves teams to an 8 seed. Duncan would have got them in the playoffs i know he would have.

[dav4463]

Danny White had better stats than Roger Staubach. Who do you want as Cowboys quarterback?

There are intangibles that makes one a champion. Tim Duncan has it. Kevin Garnett does not.

[conqueso]

According to Statsoverload.com, in head-to-head matchups between the Timberwolves and Spurs, Garnett has averaged 21.7 points to Duncan's 20.3, outrebounded him 12.1 to 11.2, averaged 5.1 assists to Duncan's 2.8 and shot 52.6 percent to Duncan's 49.1.

Oh, and Duncan had 251 fouls in those games. Garnett has been whistled 215 times.

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/columns/articles/0624p2main0625-ON.html

So much for Duncan "owning Garnett". :lol :lol

Duncan vs. Garnett career stats: Regular Season

(min) - (pts) - (reb) - (fgm)/(fga) - (PF)
***************Duncan****************Garnett****** **
1997/11/11: 35 - 22 - 09 - 09/13 - 4 *** 39 - 14 - 04 - 06/15 - 2
1997/11/15: 41 - 15 - 17 - 05/08 - 4 *** 38 - 26 - 06 - 09/20 - 4
1998/02/14: 36 - 28 - 19 - 10/20 - 4 *** 40 - 25 - 11 - 11/22 - 4
1998/03/18: 37 - 20 - 12 - 07/14 - 3 *** 43 - 16 - 10 - 07/21 - 3
1999/02/06: 37 - 22 - 14 - 07/18 - 4 *** 32 - 19 - 16 - 08/23 - 6
1999/02/09: 42 - 08 - 11 - 02/10 - 2 *** 43 - 12 - 12 - 06/25 - 4
1999/02/22: 40 - 10 - 12 - 04/10 - 2 *** 42 - 14 - 11 - 07/19 - 4
1999/04/14: ***************************DNP (flu)*******
2000/01/04: 43 - 27 - 19 - 10/17 - 1 *** 39 - 21 - 11 - 10/21 - 4
2000/01/27: 37 - 20 - 14 - 08/19 - 3 *** 39 - 26 - 08 - 12/25 - 2
2000/02/27: **DNP (lower ab strain)***********************
2000/03/02: **DNP (lower ab strain)***********************
2000/11/02: 39 - 24 - 09 - 10/15 - 4 *** 40 - 21 - 11 - 10/21 - 5
2000/11/17: 44 - 22 - 14 - 11/25 - 3 *** 45 - 32 - 12 - 12/18 - 5
2001/02/16: 47 - 26 - 12 - 07/19 - 2 *** 45 - 31 - 16 - 12/24 - 5
2001/03/14: 49 - 23 - 20 - 08/14 - 3 *** 41 - 24 - 13 - 08/20 - 5
2001/11/24: 45 - 21 - 18 - 07/20 - 2 *** 42 - 17 - 12 - 05/17 - 4
2002/02/04: 22 - 13 - 09 - 06/07 - 2 *** 24 - 08 - 06 - 04/09 - 1
2002/02/23: 39 - 25 - 06 - 10/20 - 2 *** 41 - 30 - 11 - 13/21 - 2
2002/03/01: 42 - 25 - 11 - 11/24 - 1 *** 42 - 17 - 10 - 06/12 - 4
2002/11/11: 40 - 20 - 09 - 09/22 - 4 *** 39 - 14 - 14 - 05/17 - 1
2003/01/27: 39 - 17 - 10 - 05/17 - 5 *** 36 - 34 - 10 - 14/19 - 3
2003/03/12: 41 - 18 - 14 - 08/17 - 2 *** 43 - 17 - 13 - 06/19 - 3
2003/03/21: 49 - 29 - 12 - 12/21 - 0 *** 50 - 24 - 18 - 12/21 - 5
2004/01/14: 45 - 36 - 20 - 14/26 - 1 *** 36 - 22 - 10 - 09/19 - 5
2004/02/22: 40 - 25 - 14 - 08/24 - 3 *** 42 - 28 - 10 - 12/27 - 5
2004/03/18: 27 - 22 - 10 - 06/15 - 0 *** 39 - 28 - 12 - 09/15 - 4
2004/03/23: 37 - 26 - 08 - 12/23 - 3 *** 39 - 27 - 10 - 10/20 - 1
2004/12/23: 38 - 19 - 10 - 08/23 - 1 *** 41 - 15 - 10 - 04/16 - 4
2005/03/16: 35 - 25 - 14 - 10/21 - 2 *** 33 - 12 - 11 - 05/15 - 2
2005/04/20: 23 - 03 - 06 - 01/08 - 1 *** 29 - 15 - 11 - 06/17 - 2
2005/12/15: 38 - 13 - 09 - 05/15 - 5 *** 40 - 24 - 21 - 10/19 - 2
2006/01/06: 39 - 12 - 14 - 05/19 - 3 *** 38 - 18 - 17 - 06/15 - 6
2006/01/28: 37 - 28 - 16 - 11/24 - 2 *** 38 - 23 - 10 - 09/13 - 3
2006/04/16: **********************DNP (right knee tendinitis)
2006/12/13: 36 - 24 - 05 - 11/18 - 2 *** 41 - 19 - 12 - 06/15 - 0
2007/01/03: 45 - 24 - 13 - 11/19 - 4 *** 47 - 27 - 17 - 09/23 - 3
2007/04/13: *************************DNP (right quad)***

Games: 33

TOTALS
AVERAGES (per game)
AVERAGES (per 48 min)

Duncan:
1284 min - 692 pts - 410 reb - 268 fgm/585 fga (.458) - 84 PF
38.9 mpg - 20.96 ppg - 12.4 rpg - 8.12 fgm/17.73 fga (.458) - 2.55 PF
25.87 pt48 - 15.33 rb48 - 10.02 fgm48/21.87 fga48 - 3.14 PF48

Garnett:
1306 min - 700 pts - 386 reb - 278 fgm/623 fga (.446) - 113 PF
39.58 mpg - 21.21 ppg - 11.7 rpg - 8.42 fgm/18.88 fga (.446) - 3.42 PF
25.73 pt48 - 14.19 rb48 - 10.22 fgm48/22.90 fga48 - 4.15 PF48

CONCLUSIONS:
1. Statsoverload.com is full of shit. Do the math.
2. DSF is a fucking moron for buying into that bullshit.
3. Duncan shoots better against Garnett than Garnett shoots against Duncan by more than 1%
4. Duncan scores slightly more per 48 minutes, yet...
5. Duncan takes more than one fewer shot per 48 minutes.
6. Duncan rebounds significantly more per 48 minutes.
7. Duncan has one fewer foul per 48 minutes.
8. I owned DSF harder than Duncan owns Garnett :lol :lol

[Brutalis]

:clap :clap :clap
:ihit :ihit :ihit
:nope :nope :nope
:dizzy :dizzy :dizzy

[RogerIsEatingASandwich]

KG vs. TD, I thought this shit was settled a long time ago......

TD>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>KG

[conqueso]

Duncan vs. Garnett career stats: Regular Season

(min) - (pts) - (reb) - (fgm)/(fga) - (PF)
***************Duncan****************Garnett****** **
1997/11/11: 35 - 22 - 09 - 09/13 - 4 *** 39 - 14 - 04 - 06/15 - 2
1997/11/15: 41 - 15 - 17 - 05/08 - 4 *** 38 - 26 - 06 - 09/20 - 4
1998/02/14: 36 - 28 - 19 - 10/20 - 4 *** 40 - 25 - 11 - 11/22 - 4
1998/03/18: 37 - 20 - 12 - 07/14 - 3 *** 43 - 16 - 10 - 07/21 - 3
1999/02/06: 37 - 22 - 14 - 07/18 - 4 *** 32 - 19 - 16 - 08/23 - 6
1999/02/09: 42 - 08 - 11 - 02/10 - 2 *** 43 - 12 - 12 - 06/25 - 4
1999/02/22: 40 - 10 - 12 - 04/10 - 2 *** 42 - 14 - 11 - 07/19 - 4
1999/04/14: ***************************DNP (flu)*******
2000/01/04: 43 - 27 - 19 - 10/17 - 1 *** 39 - 21 - 11 - 10/21 - 4
2000/01/27: 37 - 20 - 14 - 08/19 - 3 *** 39 - 26 - 08 - 12/25 - 2
2000/02/27: **DNP (lower ab strain)***********************
2000/03/02: **DNP (lower ab strain)***********************
2000/11/02: 39 - 24 - 09 - 10/15 - 4 *** 40 - 21 - 11 - 10/21 - 5
2000/11/17: 44 - 22 - 14 - 11/25 - 3 *** 45 - 32 - 12 - 12/18 - 5
2001/02/16: 47 - 26 - 12 - 07/19 - 2 *** 45 - 31 - 16 - 12/24 - 5
2001/03/14: 49 - 23 - 20 - 08/14 - 3 *** 41 - 24 - 13 - 08/20 - 5
2001/11/24: 45 - 21 - 18 - 07/20 - 2 *** 42 - 17 - 12 - 05/17 - 4
2002/02/04: 22 - 13 - 09 - 06/07 - 2 *** 24 - 08 - 06 - 04/09 - 1
2002/02/23: 39 - 25 - 06 - 10/20 - 2 *** 41 - 30 - 11 - 13/21 - 2
2002/03/01: 42 - 25 - 11 - 11/24 - 1 *** 42 - 17 - 10 - 06/12 - 4
2002/11/11: 40 - 20 - 09 - 09/22 - 4 *** 39 - 14 - 14 - 05/17 - 1
2003/01/27: 39 - 17 - 10 - 05/17 - 5 *** 36 - 34 - 10 - 14/19 - 3
2003/03/12: 41 - 18 - 14 - 08/17 - 2 *** 43 - 17 - 13 - 06/19 - 3
2003/03/21: 49 - 29 - 12 - 12/21 - 0 *** 50 - 24 - 18 - 12/21 - 5
2004/01/14: 45 - 36 - 20 - 14/26 - 1 *** 36 - 22 - 10 - 09/19 - 5
2004/02/22: 40 - 25 - 14 - 08/24 - 3 *** 42 - 28 - 10 - 12/27 - 5
2004/03/18: 27 - 22 - 10 - 06/15 - 0 *** 39 - 28 - 12 - 09/15 - 4
2004/03/23: 37 - 26 - 08 - 12/23 - 3 *** 39 - 27 - 10 - 10/20 - 1
2004/12/23: 38 - 19 - 10 - 08/23 - 1 *** 41 - 15 - 10 - 04/16 - 4
2005/03/16: 35 - 25 - 14 - 10/21 - 2 *** 33 - 12 - 11 - 05/15 - 2
2005/04/20: 23 - 03 - 06 - 01/08 - 1 *** 29 - 15 - 11 - 06/17 - 2
2005/12/15: 38 - 13 - 09 - 05/15 - 5 *** 40 - 24 - 21 - 10/19 - 2
2006/01/06: 39 - 12 - 14 - 05/19 - 3 *** 38 - 18 - 17 - 06/15 - 6
2006/01/28: 37 - 28 - 16 - 11/24 - 2 *** 38 - 23 - 10 - 09/13 - 3
2006/04/16: **********************DNP (right knee tendinitis)
2006/12/13: 36 - 24 - 05 - 11/18 - 2 *** 41 - 19 - 12 - 06/15 - 0
2007/01/03: 45 - 24 - 13 - 11/19 - 4 *** 47 - 27 - 17 - 09/23 - 3
2007/04/13: *************************DNP (right quad)***

Games: 33

TOTALS
AVERAGES (per game)
AVERAGES (per 48 min)

Duncan:
1284 min - 692 pts - 410 reb - 268 fgm/585 fga (.458) - 84 PF
38.9 mpg - 20.96 ppg - 12.4 rpg - 8.12 fgm/17.73 fga (.458) - 2.55 PF
25.87 pt48 - 15.33 rb48 - 10.02 fgm48/21.87 fga48 - 3.14 PF48

Garnett:
1306 min - 700 pts - 386 reb - 278 fgm/623 fga (.446) - 113 PF
39.58 mpg - 21.21 ppg - 11.7 rpg - 8.42 fgm/18.88 fga (.446) - 3.42 PF
25.73 pt48 - 14.19 rb48 - 10.22 fgm48/22.90 fga48 - 4.15 PF48

CONCLUSIONS:
1. Statsoverload.com is full of shit. Do the math.
2. DSF is a fucking moron for buying into that bullshit.
3. Duncan shoots better against Garnett than Garnett shoots against Duncan by more than 1%
4. Duncan scores slightly more per 48 minutes, yet...
5. Duncan takes more than one fewer shot per 48 minutes.
6. Duncan rebounds significantly more per 48 minutes.
7. Duncan has one fewer foul per 48 minutes.
8. I owned DSF harder than Duncan owns Garnett :lol :lol

Looking over that again, I have absolutely NO IDEA where statsoverload.com comes up with those absurd numbers, especially for the fouls. For the 8 playoff games they've played against each other, Duncan would have to have gotten 167 fouls, or 20.9 fouls per game. Even if you also included the games that Duncan played in where KG was a DNP (there are 3, and they obviously aren't head-to-head games), that would be 15.2 fouls per game.

I'm sorry DSF...statsoverload is full of shit. It actually kind of offends me that they can get off printing LIES like that, but it's pretty funny that IDIOTS like you don't verify your facts before you start making ridiculous claims.

Go home. Stop propagating your deceits around here you fucking prevaricator.

[dbreiden83080]

This debate is dumb. Timmy is a top 10 player of all time. KG is maybe in the top 50. Once you win 4 titles guys like KG were put in your rearview mirror a long time ago.

[conqueso]

This debate is dumb. Timmy is a top 10 player of all time. KG is maybe in the top 50. Once you win 4 titles guys like KG were put in your rearview mirror a long time ago.

Of course the debate is dumb. DSF is grasping at straws because he's blinded by his hatred of the Spurs. He's obviously jealous of the four rings. Unfortunately, those straws are illusory; the FACTS prove that, even if you ignore championships, Duncan has the edge. Fuck statsoverload, DSF, and all the haters. Duncan's better...live with it.

[conqueso]

2004/01/14: 45 - 36 - 20 - 14/26 - 1 *** 36 - 22 - 10 - 09/19 - 5

And btw, wasn't that KG's MVP season when Duncan dropped 36 and 20 on his retarded ass? Fuck KG.

[Switchman]

2008 Starting Four
PF: Duncan
SF: Garnett
SG: Ginobili
PG: Parker

In awe of a KG TD comination, the league grants KG the ability to wear the number 212 making NBA history.

Book it.

[td4mvp21]

Of course the debate is dumb. DSF is grasping at straws because he's blinded by his hatred of the Spurs. He's obviously jealous of the four rings. Unfortunately, those straws are illusory; the FACTS prove that, even if you ignore championships, Duncan has the edge. Fuck statsoverload, DSF, and all the haters. Duncan's better...live with it.
I think da suns fan is just mouse trying stir up shit.

[conqueso]

I think da suns fan is just mouse trying stir up shit.

If that's true, let's mark this down as the 500th time I've fucked mouse in the ass, no kiss no lube

[Marcus Bryant]

The measure of the greatness of a NBA player in this day and age is whether or not he by himself is good enough to carry a team into the postseason. Garnett is not that player. He doesn't have the post game of TD and he pales in comparison defensively. He's a phenomenal offensive talent, but that is not enough.

He missed 6 games last season and his team lost 50. That's inexcusable for an alleged "great player". I recall when DRob had absolute dogshit for a supporting cast and his team still managed to make it to the 2nd round of the playoffs. The only time DRob missed the postseason was when he played in only 6 games, not when he only missed 6 games.

The fundamental problem is that those who can only understand the game through the aid of offensive statistics automatically assume that one player is greater than the other if his scoring average is higher.

If you replaced Garnett with TD before the start of last season that Wolves team makes the playoffs, without a doubt.

[Texas_Ranger]

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g253/Ivan21_2006/fullj.jpg

[OldDirtMcGirt]

The measure of the greatness of a NBA player in this day and age is whether or not he by himself is good enough to carry a team into the postseason. Garnett is not that player. He doesn't have the post game of TD and he pales in comparison defensively. He's a phenomenal offensive talent, but that is not enough.

He missed 6 games last season and his team lost 50. That's inexcusable for an alleged "great player". I recall when DRob had absolute dogshit for a supporting cast and his team still managed to make it to the 2nd round of the playoffs. The only time DRob missed the postseason was when he played in only 6 games, not when he only missed 6 games.

The fundamental problem is that those who can only understand the game through the aid of offensive statistics automatically assume that one player is greater than the other if his scoring average is higher.

If you replaced Garnett with TD before the start of last season that Wolves team makes the playoffs, without a doubt.

First of all, hypotheticals are ridiculous. Personally, I don't think that Duncan would've taken the Wolves team to the playoffs. Not a slight on Duncan, I think he's the best player in the league, but it's foolish to assume that a big man can simply carry his team to the playoffs.

Garnett's points per game is hardly his defining statistics. He has the most complete game in the league, and is a world class defensive talent as well.

Kobe can carry his team to the playoffs by jacking up a ton of shots, averaging thirty, and getting his team to a seventh or eighth seed so they can get their butts whooped. That to me does not define greatness by any means.

[OldDirtMcGirt]

Duncan vs. Garnett career stats: Regular Season

(min) - (pts) - (reb) - (fgm)/(fga) - (PF)
***************Duncan****************Garnett****** **
1997/11/11: 35 - 22 - 09 - 09/13 - 4 *** 39 - 14 - 04 - 06/15 - 2
1997/11/15: 41 - 15 - 17 - 05/08 - 4 *** 38 - 26 - 06 - 09/20 - 4
1998/02/14: 36 - 28 - 19 - 10/20 - 4 *** 40 - 25 - 11 - 11/22 - 4
1998/03/18: 37 - 20 - 12 - 07/14 - 3 *** 43 - 16 - 10 - 07/21 - 3
1999/02/06: 37 - 22 - 14 - 07/18 - 4 *** 32 - 19 - 16 - 08/23 - 6
1999/02/09: 42 - 08 - 11 - 02/10 - 2 *** 43 - 12 - 12 - 06/25 - 4
1999/02/22: 40 - 10 - 12 - 04/10 - 2 *** 42 - 14 - 11 - 07/19 - 4
1999/04/14: ***************************DNP (flu)*******
2000/01/04: 43 - 27 - 19 - 10/17 - 1 *** 39 - 21 - 11 - 10/21 - 4
2000/01/27: 37 - 20 - 14 - 08/19 - 3 *** 39 - 26 - 08 - 12/25 - 2
2000/02/27: **DNP (lower ab strain)***********************
2000/03/02: **DNP (lower ab strain)***********************
2000/11/02: 39 - 24 - 09 - 10/15 - 4 *** 40 - 21 - 11 - 10/21 - 5
2000/11/17: 44 - 22 - 14 - 11/25 - 3 *** 45 - 32 - 12 - 12/18 - 5
2001/02/16: 47 - 26 - 12 - 07/19 - 2 *** 45 - 31 - 16 - 12/24 - 5
2001/03/14: 49 - 23 - 20 - 08/14 - 3 *** 41 - 24 - 13 - 08/20 - 5
2001/11/24: 45 - 21 - 18 - 07/20 - 2 *** 42 - 17 - 12 - 05/17 - 4
2002/02/04: 22 - 13 - 09 - 06/07 - 2 *** 24 - 08 - 06 - 04/09 - 1
2002/02/23: 39 - 25 - 06 - 10/20 - 2 *** 41 - 30 - 11 - 13/21 - 2
2002/03/01: 42 - 25 - 11 - 11/24 - 1 *** 42 - 17 - 10 - 06/12 - 4
2002/11/11: 40 - 20 - 09 - 09/22 - 4 *** 39 - 14 - 14 - 05/17 - 1
2003/01/27: 39 - 17 - 10 - 05/17 - 5 *** 36 - 34 - 10 - 14/19 - 3
2003/03/12: 41 - 18 - 14 - 08/17 - 2 *** 43 - 17 - 13 - 06/19 - 3
2003/03/21: 49 - 29 - 12 - 12/21 - 0 *** 50 - 24 - 18 - 12/21 - 5
2004/01/14: 45 - 36 - 20 - 14/26 - 1 *** 36 - 22 - 10 - 09/19 - 5
2004/02/22: 40 - 25 - 14 - 08/24 - 3 *** 42 - 28 - 10 - 12/27 - 5
2004/03/18: 27 - 22 - 10 - 06/15 - 0 *** 39 - 28 - 12 - 09/15 - 4
2004/03/23: 37 - 26 - 08 - 12/23 - 3 *** 39 - 27 - 10 - 10/20 - 1
2004/12/23: 38 - 19 - 10 - 08/23 - 1 *** 41 - 15 - 10 - 04/16 - 4
2005/03/16: 35 - 25 - 14 - 10/21 - 2 *** 33 - 12 - 11 - 05/15 - 2
2005/04/20: 23 - 03 - 06 - 01/08 - 1 *** 29 - 15 - 11 - 06/17 - 2
2005/12/15: 38 - 13 - 09 - 05/15 - 5 *** 40 - 24 - 21 - 10/19 - 2
2006/01/06: 39 - 12 - 14 - 05/19 - 3 *** 38 - 18 - 17 - 06/15 - 6
2006/01/28: 37 - 28 - 16 - 11/24 - 2 *** 38 - 23 - 10 - 09/13 - 3
2006/04/16: **********************DNP (right knee tendinitis)
2006/12/13: 36 - 24 - 05 - 11/18 - 2 *** 41 - 19 - 12 - 06/15 - 0
2007/01/03: 45 - 24 - 13 - 11/19 - 4 *** 47 - 27 - 17 - 09/23 - 3
2007/04/13: *************************DNP (right quad)***

Games: 33

TOTALS
AVERAGES (per game)
AVERAGES (per 48 min)

Duncan:
1284 min - 692 pts - 410 reb - 268 fgm/585 fga (.458) - 84 PF
38.9 mpg - 20.96 ppg - 12.4 rpg - 8.12 fgm/17.73 fga (.458) - 2.55 PF
25.87 pt48 - 15.33 rb48 - 10.02 fgm48/21.87 fga48 - 3.14 PF48

Garnett:
1306 min - 700 pts - 386 reb - 278 fgm/623 fga (.446) - 113 PF
39.58 mpg - 21.21 ppg - 11.7 rpg - 8.42 fgm/18.88 fga (.446) - 3.42 PF
25.73 pt48 - 14.19 rb48 - 10.22 fgm48/22.90 fga48 - 4.15 PF48

CONCLUSIONS:
1. Statsoverload.com is full of shit. Do the math.
2. DSF is a fucking moron for buying into that bullshit.
3. Duncan shoots better against Garnett than Garnett shoots against Duncan by more than 1%
4. Duncan scores slightly more per 48 minutes, yet...
5. Duncan takes more than one fewer shot per 48 minutes.
6. Duncan rebounds significantly more per 48 minutes.
7. Duncan has one fewer foul per 48 minutes.
8. I owned DSF harder than Duncan owns Garnett :lol :lol

Per 48 minute statistics are completely useless. They measure imaginary things.

[OldDirtMcGirt]

That is a big thing for me with KG. I am not asking him to win a title but in the last few years he can't even lead those Wolves teams to an 8 seed. Duncan would have got them in the playoffs i know he would have.

Well it's difficult to debate things when the reason is "I know he would have".

[SRJ]

A lot to chew on in this thread - I think conqueso's post puts the baby to bed, but let's just have a look.

Taking da suns fan's numbers at their face value (and we cannot, but let's do it for the sake of this exercise) what does it even mean?


DA SUNS FAN'S STATS:

Garnett: 21.7, 12.1, 5.1, 52.6
Duncan: 20.3, 11.2, 2.8, 49.1

I have a couple of points of contention in connection with these stats:

1) The gaps in these numbers are not vast. In fact, they're insignificant: 1.4 points, 0.9 rebounds, 2.3 assists, and 2.7 FG% points is hardly a resounding victory considering that the Spurs have won the great majority of the games. These narrow statistical edges are supposed to offset 27-14?

2) Is the whole idea of Spurs victories predicated on Duncan out-statisticizing (I just made up a new word!) his opponent? Let's just consider a hypothetical Wolves-Spurs game - Spurs 91, Wolves 86, 2:07 left to go. Gregg Popovich diagrams a play during a timeout:


POP: Okay. We need to create some separation here to hold them off. Tim, you've got 18 points on 5-11, 8 rebounds, 2 assists, and a block. Garnett has 23 on 8-14, 11 recounds, 5 assists, a block, and two steals. Now, we'll run 4-down, and you need to get a basket or assist out of it. You close that stat gap with KG and we'll win this thing.

See, that doesn't seem likely. Simple strategy based upon personnel dictates that Tim will try to use his superior squad to it's full effect, while Garnett will see the ball more than Duncan because his teammates are less able to make plays than Duncan's teammates are.

As a matter of fact, Duncan was on the opposite end of this in 2002. He damn near averaged 30 and 20 against the Lakers in the second round of the playoffs, but the Spurs lost four out of five in that series. One man cannot beat a team, and that's what Garnett has run into against the Spurs for the most part.

I'll take KG on my team any old time, and all in all he has had a career that 99.98% of us would sell our mothers for. But I fail to see what a meager head-to-head statistical advantage proves in this instance.

[Ockham]

I posted this months back in another forum, but I think it's relevant here:

There’s always a tension in these "greater player" debates: on the one hand, you want to count winning percentage, playoff success, and championships, while on the other, you know that these are team accomplishments. That’s why these kinds of debates often devolve into arguments like this:

“Yeah, well if ____ had been on the ______’s, he would have won ____ rings too!”
“No he wouldn’t!”
“Yes he would!”

This happens a lot, I’ve noticed, with Duncan/Garnett debates. But whenever it happens, the annoying thing is that there doesn’t seem to be a fully satisfying empirical or rational way to go about supporting your side, either way.

So here’s how I’ve tried to deal with this sort of move lately. While we may not be able to know how Garnett would have performed as a Spur (or for that matter how Chamberlain would have performed as a Celtic, etc.), we can do the following. We can investigate how “chemistry-friendly” players were during their careers: were they able to flourish with only certain players around them, or did they show the ability to flourish in many different kinds of circumstances? If they were extremely chemistry-friendly, and they were successful, then it’s more likely that they would have had success anywhere. If they weren’t chemistry-friendly, or less so, then success in other sorts of circumstances is at least doubtful.

So, for example, Magic Johnson is as chemistry-friendly as it gets: not only did he flourish on drastically different Laker teams, he was the best player on college and high school basketball championship teams. Bill Russell rates highly here as well, not just because of his success with very different Celtic squads, but because he led college teams to championships. Interestingly, Jordan doesn’t do as well on this feature. (This doesn’t mean that Jordan isn’t greater overall than Russell or Magic. But it’s an interesting fact nonetheless.)

If we apply this to the Duncan/KG debate, I think it’s helpful. We’ll never know exactly how KG would have done in a Spurs jersey, nor exactly what TD would have done had he been stuck in Minnesota. But we do know that Duncan has led 3 very different Spurs teams to 4 championships, showing that he can win, as the best player on the team, in different sorts of circumstances. We have little to no evidence that KG can do this. I think this helps to resolve the tension somewhat.

[ambchang]

I'm just curious to see how KG does with a decent team for the first time in his career. And an old washed up version of Sprewell and Cassel doesn't count as having good teammates.
I believe Cassell made the All Star team in 04, and Sprewell averaged 17 ppg that year, hardly washed up.

[Capt Bringdown]

Let KG have his whimpering little fans and their petty research projects.

[Nathan Explosion]

Just read this, courtesy of ESPN TrueHoop.

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-24-69/Bill-Simmons--Here-s-Your-Ammo.html

I just got a very interesting email, though, from a basketball fan who is also a marketing professor who does applied econometric research at the University of Southern California. Kenneth Wilbur writes:

Duncan tends to stand closer to the basket while his teammates have the ball. Garnett usually stands farther away.

Thus, when a teammate drives for a lay-up, Garnett's defender is better able to help defend against the driving offensive player. This makes Garnett's teammates more likely to be going 1-on-2, while Duncan's teammates are going 1-on-1. Duncan's defender is less likely to help, since Duncan is just a short pass away from a high-percentage dunk attempt.

Win Score, PER, and other systems do not observe where a player stands when other players attempt to shoot. Thus they may misattribute performance among individual players.

There are many other unobserved aspects of play that could have similar effects. For example: willingness to set a pick, deliver a hard foul, move without the ball, and many aspects of team defense. People who know basketball would probably agree that Duncan is better than Garnett in many of these areas.

Some suggestive evidence is available from changes in teammate performance when they join or leave Garnett's or Duncan's teams. Players' roles and abilities change over time, so take this with a grain of salt. But you can see some evidence for Simmons' argument.

Marko Jaric
.414 FG% w/ Clippers in 04-05
.399 FG% w/ T-wolves in 05-06

Mike James
.469 FG% w/ Raptors in 05-06
.432 FG% w/ T-wolves in 06-07

Ricky Davis
.464 FG% w/ Celtics in 05-06
.429 FG% w/ T-Wolves in 05-06

All three are "slasher" types who are potentially affected by the unobserved positioning variable discussed above.

The larger point is that Win Score, PER, and the rest of current-generation basketball statistics should be seen as a complement to informed basketball observation, but they ARE NOT a substitute for experts' basketball observations. (Though they are may be better than many casual fans' basketball observations.) It is possible to correct the deficiencies in these statistical measures, but doing so will require much better data and a more sophisticated class of models.

[Obstructed_View]

I believe Cassell made the All Star team in 04, and Sprewell averaged 17 ppg that year, hardly washed up.
But what people are missing is that Cassell and Spre don't win because they are talented, they win because they are driven to win. The reason that KG won with those guys is that he had someone to win games for him because he's never demonstrated an ability to do it. That's why I always refer to him as the best role player in the NBA.

David Robinson had way more talent than KG; his pre-Duncan numbers show it. It didn't translate into playoff success.

KG's never had an assassin's mindset, and surrounding him with all-stars isn't going to suddenly make him show up big in crunch time.

[Obstructed_View]

Per 48 minute statistics are completely useless. They don't support my argument.

[MONTENEGRINO]

If it matters, here is one vote from Europe, so - neutral.
Tim is way better and much more valuable player than KG, who is better only in marketing issues. There are no players who can compare with TD in matters of efficiency.
Tim Duncan won 4 rings. KG went in conference finals only 1 time...
Methinks that whole thread has no point at all...

[Spurminator]

Personally, I don't think that Duncan would've taken the Wolves team to the playoffs. Not a slight on Duncan, I think he's the best player in the league, but it's foolish to assume that a big man can simply carry his team to the playoffs.

I think it's completely safe to assume it, given what NBA History has shown us about big men on Tim Duncan's level. At the very least it's safe to assume Tim Duncan would not have failed to make the Playoffs three years in a row. Aside from KG, when was the last time an "elite" big man failed to lead his team to the Postseason three years in a row? Particularly in an Expansion era when more than HALF of the teams in the NBA qualify for Postseason play?

[SpursDynasty]

If it's stats you want, go with KG.

If you want championships, go with Duncan.

Yep, it's all about team ball and team defense, two things Garnett knows nothing about. I wish I could find that Ron Artest quote regarding Duncan kicking Garnett's ass and winning the damn championship or something like that...

[OldDirtMcGirt]

Yep, it's all about team ball and team defense, two things Garnett knows nothing about. I wish I could find that Ron Artest quote regarding Duncan kicking Garnett's ass and winning the damn championship or something like that...

Garnett is an excellent team player, and an excellent team defender. He just needs the team.

[Gino20]

Duncan is not called, "The best PF of all-time" for nothing. KG is a very good player, but Timmy D is a great player...

[OldDirtMcGirt]

Duncan is not called, "The best PF of all-time" for nothing. KG is a very good player, but Timmy D is a great player...

This is true. Duncan is probably a top ten player of all time, where as Garnett is like top 25. Both are great players, but Duncan is on another level.

[leemajors]

Garnett is an excellent team player, and an excellent team defender. He just needs the team.
he's not a bad defender, but i don't think he can be as effective an anchor in a defense like duncan is.

[td4mvp21]

he's not a bad defender, but i don't think he can be as effective an anchor in a defense like duncan is.

Exactly. Garnett can never have the same impact offensively AND defensively as Tim Duncan. Also, Garnett is a pretty good team player. He usually averages 4-5 apg. That should tell you that he doesn't have shitty teammates if he's able to consistently rack up the assists.

[Obstructed_View]

Rasho is an excellent team player, and an excellent team defender. He just needs the team.

[conqueso]

Per 48 minute statistics are completely useless. They measure imaginary things.

Are you completely retarded? Per 48 minute stats are the ONLY meaningful way to compare two similar players. For two players who are both good scorers, one's stats may be superior to the others, but only because THEY PLAY MORE MINUTES PER GAME. Taking similar players and projecting their stats over 48 minutes ELIMINATES ANY DISCREPANCY CAUSED BY MORE MINUTES PLAYED. It's leveling the playing field for statistical comparison.

So, for example, KG plays more minutes than Duncan, probably because he's on a team where he's the number one dude and they rely on his output more. Or possibly because the TWolves suck so bad that they average margin of victory is low. Duncan, on the other hand, need not play as much since the Spurs can get production from other areas, and also because they blow the fuck out of lousy teams and Duncan spends the fourth quarters chillin' on the bench laughing and joking around with the boys.

It's not fair to compare their overall stats to each other when they play different amount of minutes. That's why per 48 minute stats are vital. They aren't imaginary at all...it's the same as a stat like "Points per minute played," just multiplied by 48. So instead of comparing Duncan's .78 points per minute to Garnett's .76 points per minute or whatever, it's just extending that over the course of the game.

Eat a dick moron.

[ambchang]

Sigh, it seems like every couple of years, some troll comes in and rehash this topic, while getting the stat-conscious bunch to follow him/her.

For their careers statistics:
Garnett: 20.5 ppg, 4.5 apg, 11.4 rpg, 1.7 bpg, 1.4 spg, 2.6 TO, 2.5 F, 49.1% FG and 78% FT in 38.3 mpg.
Duncan: 21.8 ppg, 3.2 apg, 11.9 rpg, 2.5 bpg, 0.8 spg, 2.9 TO, 2.7 F, 50.9% FG and 68% FT in 37.5 mpg.

Since Duncan has slightly better stats in slightly less minutes, trolls will bring up head to head and falsify some information. According to basketball-reference.com, in the head to head matchups, Garnett did NOT outrebound Duncan, and only outscored him by 0.2 ppg, with more fouls, more turnovers, shot worse from the field, and a crappier record.

Spurs over Wolves 20-13 in regular season:
Garnett: 21.2 ppg, 11.7 rpg, 4.6 apg, 2.3 blks, 1.5 spg, 3.4 TO, 3.5 Fouls, 44.6 FG, 77.1 FT in 39.6 mpg.
Duncan: 21.0 ppg, 12.2 rpg, 3.4 apg, 1.9 blks, 0.5 spg, 2.5 TO, 2.5 Fouls, 45.8 FG, 61.9 FT in 38.9 mpg.

And in the playoffs, Spurs 6-2 over the Wolves:
Garnett: 21.5 ppg, 12 rpg, 4 apg, 1.8 blk, 1.4 spg, 2.4 TO, 2.9 fouls, 45.3 FG, 79.7 FT in 41.9 mpg.
Duncan: 20.6 ppg, 11.9 rpg, 3.4 apg, 2.5 blk, 0.9 spg, 2.3 TO, 2.8 PF, 46.4 FG, 69.6 FT in 40.5 mpg.

So Garnett got slightly better head to head numbers in the playoffs, which according to Garnett supporters, can overcome the record because Garnett got crappy teammates, but this is simply false.

Garnett had Marbury, Googs, Terrell Brandon, Sprewell, Cassell, and Sczerbiak as his teammates at one point or another, and frequently a few of them together.
Duncan had Robinson, Elliott, Parker and Ginobili. Not to mention an over the hill Elliott when Duncan joined, and Robinson only played 2 good years with Duncan (good meaning not frequently injured, which is not even close to his prime). Duncan won the championship with Robinson averaging 8.5 ppg, Parker in his 2nd year with Speedy Claxton coming in to save his ass during the playoffs, and a rookie Ginobili averaging less than 10 ppg, and this team that won the championship is supposed to have better talent than the 04 Wolves?

In 2001, Duncan had Derek Anderson as his team’s 2nd leading scorer, Robinson averaging 14.4 / 8.6, Antonio Daniels, Terry Porter, Ferry, Rose etc … and won 58 games, got the Midwest division title, and lost in the WCF to the Lakers. In the same year, Garnett had Terrell Brandon, Szczerbiak, Peeler, Billups and Rasho, and the Wolves won 45 games and got kicked out of the 1st round by, who else but the Spurs?

Duncan with his low post game opens up the 3 pt shooters and lanes to the basket, making a free flowing offense much more possible. Garnett, as good as he is, cannot do the same and is often dominant of the ball. Garnett is an excellent defender, but he cannot anchor the defense like Duncan could because of the styles they play.

[OldDirtMcGirt]

Are you completely retarded? Per 48 minute stats are the ONLY meaningful way to compare two similar players. For two players who are both good scorers, one's stats may be superior to the others, but only because THEY PLAY MORE MINUTES PER GAME. Taking similar players and projecting their stats over 48 minutes ELIMINATES ANY DISCREPANCY CAUSED BY MORE MINUTES PLAYED. It's leveling the playing field for statistical comparison.

So, for example, KG plays more minutes than Duncan, probably because he's on a team where he's the number one dude and they rely on his output more. Or possibly because the TWolves suck so bad that they average margin of victory is low. Duncan, on the other hand, need not play as much since the Spurs can get production from other areas, and also because they blow the fuck out of lousy teams and Duncan spends the fourth quarters chillin' on the bench laughing and joking around with the boys.

It's not fair to compare their overall stats to each other when they play different amount of minutes. That's why per 48 minute stats are vital. They aren't imaginary at all...it's the same as a stat like "Points per minute played," just multiplied by 48. So instead of comparing Duncan's .78 points per minute to Garnett's .76 points per minute or whatever, it's just extending that over the course of the game.

Eat a dick moron.

Per 48 minute statistics are bullshit. Literally. They don't measure actual production, they measure what might have been. You can just make the (valid) point that Garnett might have slightly better statistics because he played more minutes, but you can't for sure say that Duncan would be better if they both played forty-eight minute games. Some players are better conditioned to last more of a grind. There's no way you can come up with a statistic that measures things like how fatigued a player is and how that would affect their game. Forty-eight minute stats measure shit that never happened, and that's their problem.

24 points is 24 points, whether it comes in five minutes or fifty. It's what's on the scoreboard at the end of the game, not what could have happened if players were able to maintain the same statistical output over a full game (which they can't).

[FromWayDowntown]

24 points is 24 points, whether it comes in five minutes or fifty. It's what's on the scoreboard at the end of the game, not what could have happened if players were able to maintain the same statistical output over a full game (which they can't).

So, if Player A scores 24 points in 42 minutes and Player B scores 22 points in 37 minutes, are you saying that it's conclusive that Player A is the better scorer?

[MrChug]

This guy did all that research, gets flamed, looks like a moron, and the Suns STILL won't get KG.

...and even if they did, he wouldnt put you over the top.

[ShoogarBear]

Just read this, courtesy of ESPN TrueHoop.

http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-24-69/Bill-Simmons--Here-s-Your-Ammo.html

I just got a very interesting email, though, from a basketball fan who is also a marketing professor who does applied econometric research at the University of Southern California. Kenneth Wilbur writes:
If you go to the blog, Wilbur has a followup in the comments:


Here is a bit more support for the positioning claims I made above. According to NBA.com HotZones (http://www.nba.com/hotzones/popup.html): Duncan took 752 shots in the zone closest to the basket this year, making 61.3%... far more than Garnett , who only took 451 shots in the zone closest to the basket (making 58.1%). Even Tony Parker took more close-range shots than Garnett, 554 to 451 (making 63%).
Think about that. Tony Parker scores more in the paint than Kevin Garnett. Maybe that says more about TP than KG, but still.

[Cry Havoc]

If you go to the blog, Wilbur has a followup in the comments:


Think about that. Tony Parker scores more in the paint than Kevin Garnett. Maybe that says more about TP than KG, but still.

Duh. Parker is a better post-player than Garnett.

Sheesh, Shoog, do I have to spell everything out for you? :spin

[mavs>spurs2]

MrChugs sig is fuckin hilarious....you do know that KG and Duncan make about the same money right?

[Spurminator]

Only recently have their salaries even begun to look close, and there's still an above average role player salary's difference between the two.

Between 2000 and 2004, KG was making $12-16 more than Duncan every year.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/garneke01.html

[Obstructed_View]

MrChugs sig is fuckin hilarious....you do know that KG and Duncan make about the same money right?
Kevin Garnett's 128 million dollar contract when he was 22 set the stage for the lockout and changed the rules preventing Tim Duncan from cashing in after his rookie contract was up. Just do a little bit of research. Damn.

[Cry Havoc]

Kevin Garnett's 128 million dollar contract when he was 22 set the stage for the lockout and changed the rules preventing Tim Duncan from cashing in after his rookie contract was up. Just do a little bit of research. Damn.


I was with you up to that point. But you lost me there.

[conqueso]

Per 48 minute statistics are bullshit. Literally. They don't measure actual production, they measure what might have been. You can just make the (valid) point that Garnett might have slightly better statistics because he played more minutes, but you can't for sure say that Duncan would be better if they both played forty-eight minute games. Some players are better conditioned to last more of a grind. There's no way you can come up with a statistic that measures things like how fatigued a player is and how that would affect their game. Forty-eight minute stats measure shit that never happened, and that's their problem.

24 points is 24 points, whether it comes in five minutes or fifty. It's what's on the scoreboard at the end of the game, not what could have happened if players were able to maintain the same statistical output over a full game (which they can't).

Are you retarded? Did you actually READ what I posted? Or were you just not paying attention? I'll repeat...

IT'S NOT ABOUT SOME HYPOTHETICAL GAME WHERE BOTH PLAYED 48 MINUTES!!!! THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE STATISTIC!!! Fatigue is irrelevant because the MEANING derived from per 48's doesn't have anything to do with actually PLAYING 48 minutes. The point of the stat is to make varying statistics proportional. It takes the different amounts of time players spend on the court and EQUALIZES them by accounting for that difference. But you already accept this point. You say "You can just make the (valid) point that Garnett might have slightly better statistics because he played more minutes." THAT'S ALL THAT THE STATISTIC MEASURES!!! Forget about thinking what would actually happen if both of them played every minute of every game. The question is WHO IS MORE PRODUCTIVE IN THE TIME THEY ARE ON THE FLOOR. And you can't figure that out by just comparing raw numbers, because of the (valid) point that some players play more than others.

Anyway, it doesn't mean anything, the scoring stats slightly favor Garnett, assists and blocks moderately favor him, but EVERYTHING ELSE favors Duncan. Boards, fouls, FG%, TOs, wins, rings, whatever.

Drop this argument. It's dumb. You know you're wrong. Just admit it already and move on.

[resistanze]

Just to add, you don't have to make it per 48 minutes. You can make it per 40 minutes like basketball-reference does, or per whatever you want.

It doesn't make a difference; if Duncan averages more ______ than Garnett (or vice-versa) per 48 minutes, he averages more per 40, 5 or 1 minute(s). That's the point you seem to be missing.

It got nothing to do with playing 48 actual minutes. Divide that stat by 48 and you can see how points/rebounds/blocks they get per minute.

[Obstructed_View]

I was with you up to that point. But you lost me there.
?? Did I misspell something? What did I do? :lol

[Brutalis]

I come back the next day and this is still going?

Seriously. Garnett don't compare, come the hell on already. Apples and oranges.

[spursfan09]

Man, Amare's stupidness is certainly rubbing off on Sun fans. Tim is already the best PF ever. For KG to even be mentioned, has to win about 4 championship just to catch up....

[samikeyp]

I would have to agree about the Per 48 Min stat being bullshit.

(Link removed because I need to read before I post! :lol)

You don't measure a player on what they could do, you measure a player by what they actually do.

The most overhyped and worthless stat ever.

[conqueso]

I would have to agree about the Per 48 Min stat being bullshit.

According to this list...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=nbascoring&sort=pts&league=nba&avg=48&qual=true&pos=r&season=2006&seasontype=2

Channing Frye is a better scorer than Kobe Bryant, Allen Iverson and Lebron James.

You don't measure a player on what they could do, you measure a player by what they actually do.

The most overhyped and worthless stat ever.

I agree that you can get some absurd results using the per X minute stats (take David Lee this past year for instance averaged 20 rebounds per 48). Hence, why I said the stat was helpful to compare similar players, i.e. players with similar or comparable raw stat totals. We can all agree that KG and TD are similar/comparable players. Hence, the stat is valid as applied to them.

Plus, you are making the same stupid, ridiculous mistake that Dirt was making. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this: IT'S NOT ABOUT WHAT THEY COULD DO!!!!!!!!!! GET THAT OUT OF YOUR HEAD!!!!!!! It's about what they ACTUALLY do, just translated into a form that makes the numbers actually meaningful in comparison. It's kinda like a scientific experiment where you CONTROL for a variable so that when you look at the end results, you know any differences had NOTHING to do with the existence of that condition.

Seriously, this concept isn't that difficult to understand.

[Spurminator]

I think per48 is fine when comparing players who play similar minutes. In the case of KG and Duncan, the difference in minutes is really related to different coaching philosophies... KG's coaches run him as many minutes as possible, Pop likes to rest Tim a lot durng the regular season.

If Tim was playing 35 mpg because he doesn't have the stamina to play 40, then I wouldn't use per48 to compare them, because KG's extra minutes should be accounted for as an advantage. Such is the case with Manu vs. other elite shooting guards. While Manu's production when he is on the court is as high and as efficient as anyone in the league, you wouldn't say he's a more valuable player than someone who puts up slightly inferior per48 stats but plays 41 mpg.

[da_suns_fan__]

I would have to agree about the Per 48 Min stat being bullshit.

According to this list...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=nbascoring&sort=pts&league=nba&avg=48&qual=true&pos=r&season=2006&seasontype=2

Channing Frye is a better scorer than Kobe Bryant, Allen Iverson and Lebron James.

You don't measure a player on what they could do, you measure a player by what they actually do.

The most overhyped and worthless stat ever.

DUMBASS!

You have "rookies" selected from last year. :lol

Here:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=nbascoring&sort=pts&order=true&league=nba&avg=48&qual=true&seasontype=2&pos=all&season=2007

[samikeyp]

Seriously, this concept isn't that difficult to understand.

I understand the concept...I just don't agree with it or that particular perameters of measuring players.

Some people, not you necessarily, use this stat as the holy grail of statistics and I just don't see it that way.

[samikeyp]

DUMBASS!

You have "rookies" selected from last year.

:lol very true My bad on not looking at what link I was using.

but I was just using it as an example. My opinion still remains. I don't see the per48 min as a valid or valuable stat. No matter how hard anyone tries to make me change my mind, I have just never bought into that stat.

[samikeyp]

Im not too dumb to realize that my sig is still valid. :)


Why do some Suns fans feel their team is above the rules?

No Suns fan will answer my question.

[da_suns_fan__]

Im not too dumb to realize that my sig is still valid. :)

Ah...well Mr. Textbook. Do you also feel that Duncan and Bowen should have been suspended for walking onto the court during an altercation?

[da_suns_fan__]

How do you like that every interview Parker's had, he gets asked "do you think you still would have won had the suspensions not happned"?

[samikeyp]

Ah...well Mr. Textbook. Do you also feel that Duncan and Bowen should have been suspended for walking onto the court during an altercation?

If there was an altercation, absolutely. If you can point out an altercation during which they walked onto the court, I would like to see it.

[ChumpDumper]

Ah...well Mr. Textbook. Do you also feel that Duncan and Bowen should have been suspended for walking onto the court during an altercation?There wasn't an altercation DUMBASS!

[samikeyp]

How do you like that every interview Parker's had, he gets asked "do you think you still would have won had the suspensions not happned"?

I like that fact that winning another title and the Finals MVP has increased Parker's interview requests.

[da_suns_fan__]

There wasn't an altercation DUMBASS!

So Duncan and Bowen, for no explicit reason, wandered onto the court?

Seriously? Were they drunk?
:drunk

[Shred]

So Duncan and Bowen, for no explicit reason, wandered onto the court?

Seriously? Were they drunk?
:drunk

How about a Top 10 reasons why Duncan and Bowen did go on the court? Handicap: There was no altercation, dammit!

[Shred]

There wasn't an altercation DUMBASS!

Yes, they were just going for a stroll, keeping their leg muscles warmed up!

[ChumpDumper]

So Duncan and Bowen, for no explicit reason, wandered onto the court?

Seriously? Were they drunk?
:drunkElson was undercut and fell to the floor. The guy who undercut him ran away. Duncan and Bowen stepped onto the court. Elson complained to the ref.

No altercation.

You are drunk. :drunk

Seriously.

[Shred]

Elson was undercut and fell to the floor. The guy who undercut him ran away. Duncan and Bowen stepped onto the court. Elson complained to the ref.

No altercation.

You are drunk. :drunk

Seriously.

Yeah, Duncan was concerned about the wet spot on the court after Elson hit the floor. It had nothing to do with any sort of imaginary altercation. (He was even carrying a towel, duh.)

[ChumpDumper]

Yeah, Duncan was concerned about the wet spot on the court after Elson hit the floor. It had nothing to do with any sort of imaginary altercation. (He was even carrying a towel, duh.)Describe the altercation in detail.

I told you what happened, now let's hear your made up story.

[Shred]

Describe the alleged altercation in detail.

I told you what happened, now let's hear your made up story.

I just got done agreeing with you, man! Jones undercut Elson, causing him to hit the floor, but that wasn't an altercation. It certainly was not the reason Duncan got off the bench. It's more like when Horry gave Nash the forearm shiver.



Uh, wait...let me think about that some more.

[ChumpDumper]

I just got done agreeing with you, man! Jones undercut Elson, causing him to hit the floor, but that wasn't an altercation.Ok, thanks for agreeing with me. Now quit your whining.

[samikeyp]

So Duncan and Bowen, for no explicit reason, wandered onto the court?

Seriously? Were they drunk?

No, they did step onto the court when they thought Elson was fouled. But there was no altercation. Elson thought Amare undercut him and so did the Spurs bench. Actually the smart one was Amare...he headed back up the court which is what he should have done while Elson was complaining to the ref. There is no rule against stepping onto the court when a foul is called. If Elson had gone after Amare instead of complaning to the ref and then Bowen and Duncan stepped on the court, suspensions would have been warranted and deserved.

[da_suns_fan__]

I just got done agreeing with you, man! Jones undercut Elson, causing him to hit the floor, but that wasn't an altercation. It certainly was not the reason Duncan got off the bench. It's more like when Horry gave Nash the forearm shiver.



Uh, wait...let me think about that some more.

:lol :lol

[samikeyp]

My question still stands though.

Why do some (not all..I won't pull the all fans cards like a lot of ignorant fools do) Suns fans think their team is above the rules?

[Spurminator]

I just got done agreeing with you, man! Jones undercut Elson, causing him to hit the floor, but that wasn't an altercation. It certainly was not the reason Duncan got off the bench. It's more like when Horry gave Nash the forearm shiver.



Uh, wait...let me think about that some more.


I know right? I mean, Raja Bell confronted Horry in both situations. It's practically a carbon copy incident.

[da_suns_fan__]

No, they did step onto the court when they thought Elson was fouled. But there was no altercation. Elson thought Amare undercut him and so did the Spurs bench. Actually the smart one was Amare...he headed back up the court which is what he should have done while Elson was complaining to the ref. There is no rule against stepping onto the court when a foul is called. If Elson had gone after Amare instead of complaning to the ref and then Bowen and Duncan stepped on the court, suspensions would have been warranted and deserved.

Ah...but thats just what Amare and Boris did.

:idiot

[ChumpDumper]

Ah...but thats just what Amare and Boris did.Except their dumbass teammate was trying to pick a fight with Horry.

[samikeyp]

but there was also an altercation involved...that is what makes it different.

My apologies, I should have been clearer.

There is no rule against stepping onto the court if a foul is called and nothing else happens.

[Shred]

No, they did step onto the court when they thought Elson was fouled. But there was no altercation. Elson thought Amare undercut him and so did the Spurs bench. Actually the smart one was Amare...he headed back up the court which is what he should have done while Elson was complaining to the ref. There is no rule against stepping onto the court when a foul is called. If Elson had gone after Amare instead of complaning to the ref and then Bowen and Duncan stepped on the court, suspensions would have been warranted and deserved.

Exactly what I'm saying. Just because you think there was a dirty play against your teammate and the other team's starting a fight, and you run on to the court, doesn't mean there's an altercation. You shouldn't get suspended for that.

Uh, wait...let me think about that for a second.

[Spurminator]

If we must rehash this ad nauseum, can we please stop including Boris Diaw in the discussion, as though his absence had any measurable negative effect on the Suns?

I mean, Boris fucking Diaw.

[Shred]

I know right? I mean, Raja Bell confronted Horry in both situations. It's practically a carbon copy incident.

Stoudemire and Diaw had already turned back toward the bench at the time of the "altercation" involving Bell.

[samikeyp]

Exactly what I'm saying. Just because you think there was a dirty play against your teammate and the other team's starting a fight, and you run on to the court, doesn't mean there's an altercation. You shouldn't get suspended for that.

Uh, wait...let me think about that for a second.

:lol

FWIW...I think its a shitty rule because, as far as I know, there is no set definition of what an "altercation" is and I think the rule is too rigid. I think it should be on a case by case basis.

[da_suns_fan__]

Except their dumbass teammate was trying to pick a fight with Horry.

And dumbasses Duncan and Bowen were trying to pick a fight with Jones, right?

:spin

[ChumpDumper]

Stoudemire and Diaw had already turned back toward the bench at the time of the "altercation" involving Bell.Nope.

[Spurminator]

Exactly what I'm saying. Just because you think there was a dirty play against your teammate and the other team's starting a fight, and you run on to the court, doesn't mean there's an altercation. You shouldn't get suspended for that.

Uh, wait...let me think about that for a second.

Who started a fight in the Elson incident?

[ChumpDumper]

And dumbasses Duncan and Bowen were trying to pick a fight with Jones, right?Nope.

[da_suns_fan__]

Are Spurs fans REALLY going to say that Boris Diaw ran to Nash in an effort to pick a fight with ANYONE?!

[ChumpDumper]

Are Spurs fans REALLY going to say that Boris Diaw ran to Nash in an effort to pick a fight with ANYONE?!We don't have to.

[Spurminator]

No we're going to say he left the bench during an altercation. And he did.

[Shred]

My question still stands though.

Why do some (not all..I won't pull the all fans cards like a lot of ignorant fools do) Suns fans think their team is above the rules?

It's not a question of being "above the rules." It's a question of fundamental fairness, and expecting some degree of discretion from the commissioner. "Zero tolerance" policies like that one are by definition unreasonable. Once upon a time, there was a saying in the NBA, "no harm, no foul." Zero tolerance does away with that. Zero tolerance is the 12 year old girl suspended for the school semester for giving her friend a Tylenol. It's the cop who tickets you for not using your turn signal to pull into your driveway. It's the mentality that the rule is an end, in and of itself, rather than a means to an end. It's the same mentality that fosters acceptance of authoritarianism and the police state. The commissioner should have done what's right, not blindly followed his own ludicrous zero tolerance policy, just like the DA who understands there's a difference between the poor man who steals a loaf of bread to feed his family and the rich man who steals it just to get away with it.

[da_suns_fan__]

I seriously just owned every Spurs fan in this thread.

Wasn't even that hard.

Off to lunch!

[ChumpDumper]

It's not a question of being "above the rules." It's a question of fundamental fairness, and expecting some degree of discretion in the commissioner.Meaning you expect the commissioner to put your team above the rules.

[ChumpDumper]

I seriously just owned every Spurs fan in this thread.I don't think you understand the meaning of that word.

Example: The Spurs owned the Suns in Game 6 even though the Suns had Amare and Boris and Horry was still suspended.

Let me know if you have any other problems.