The Traded Reviewed Again

[timvp]

The Knicks were hit with a $45 million luxury tax bill on Friday for their 2006-07 payroll. That same day, San Antonio made a move to ensure that they incur little or no tax next season. Ordinarily that would make the Spurs look smart, but consider the move. They traded the rights to Euroball star Luis Scola and young pivotman Jackie Butler to the Houston Rockets for Greek point guard Vassilis Spanoulis, a 2009 second-round draft choice, and cash.

The move probably sends the foreigners in different directions. Spanoulis clashed with former Rocket coach Jeff Van Gundy and sulked at the end of the Houston bench for most of the season. Even after Van Gundy was let go, he failed to change his tune and asked out of his contract. His agent foreshadowed the deal by announcing that his client could start for the Spurs, and he'd still rather return to Europe. Perhaps that illustrated the problem. Even if Tony Parker and Eva Longoria decide to take a yearlong honeymoon, Spanoulis was coming nowhere near the Spurs' starting lineup. And the Spurs will likely grant him his wish and use the cash obtained in the deal to buy him out.

Meanwhile, the Rockets made out like bandits. Scola has long been regarded as one of the best Euros waiting to get into the NBA. And he has not waited patiently. Drafted by the Spurs in 2002, Scola wanted in, but San Antonio refused to buy out his contract in the Spanish leagues. Frustrated, his agent said "in the country of liberty, my client is a prisoner."

If he's half as good at hoops as he is at playing the press, Scola will be a star, but he isn't the real steal. It's Butler. As Knicks' faithful know, Butler was one of the few memorable aspects of the Larry Brown debacle. A Development League find by team president Isiah Thomas, Butler averaged 15.8 points and 9.9 boards per 40 minutes of action. With the Knicks locked into centers Eddy Curry and Jerome James, the Spurs were able to slip in last summer and ink Butler to a threeyear, $8 million dollar deal that the Knicks chose not to match (if they had, their luxury tax bill would have been higher). However, Butler, at 6-foot-10-inches and 265 pounds on a good day, showed up out of shape for San Antonio and spent the year at the end of the bench. The trade to Houston, where he figures to get major minutes at the power forward spot, is his new lease on NBA life.

Although this trade seems to strengthen a key rival, the Spurs can be given a bit of leeway, as they are the NBA champions.

http://www.nysun.com/article/58534

While this take may be a little over the top, I think it's closer to hitting its mark than other takes where the writers think the Spurs can do no wrong.

[Streakyshooter08]

The thing is, I really had the hope, that the Spurs FO knew somthing the fans did not. And I still hope they do make a move that makes this trade look a little better...

[jag]

It seems "over the top" because it only hits the mark for those who feel that this trade was a huge mistake.

It seems that everyone wants to either say that this trade was a complete bust, or that the spurs make no mistakes.

I think there's a happy medium. There's no guarantee Scola is going to be the next big thing and lead the rockets over the spurs in the playoffs, so why act like it?

The spurs FO may may mistakes, but for those on here(spurstalk) to act like they could do any better is a joke.

For people to say that they are worthless, and incompetent after seeing what they've accomplished up to this point is sheer stupidity.

[timvp]

The spurs FO may may mistakes, but for those on here(spurstalk) to act like they could do any better is a joke.

In this specific case, I don't think that's true. Unless somehow Butler and Scola bust or the Spurs use the money to do something else, a dead person could have made a better trade than the Spurs just made.

[jag]

In this specific case, I don't think that's true. Unless somehow Butler and Scola bust or the Spurs use the money to do something else, a dead person could have made a better trade than the Spurs just made.


You act as if Scola and Butler ARE a sure thing, you also act as if the offseason has completed.

If no other moves are made, then we go into next season with a championship roster and the Trade was a terrible one. But I wouldnt go replacing the FO with dead people just yet.

[timvp]

You act as if Scola and Butler ARE a sure thingWhere did I say that? By saying IF they are busts doesn't mean I think they are sure things. Chances are probably one of them is good while one of them fails to live up to expectations.


, you also act as if the offseason has completed. It could be. The Spurs are now under the luxury tax. They could roll into the season with the roster they have plus Mahinmi.


If no other moves are made, then we go into next season with a championship roster and the Trade was a terrible one. But I wouldnt go replacing the FO with dead people just yet.I'm not following what you are saying but the Spurs chances of winning the championship didn't increase or decrease with this trade. That said, you don't do a trade that has no upside and gives the other team a risk free acquisition.

[Bruno]

So, this writer is saying that Rockets will play "major minutes" with a Butler/Yao frontcourt. :rolleyes

[jag]

Where did I say that? By saying IF they are busts doesn't mean I think they are sure things.


Unless somehow Butler and Scola bust

"unless somehow" sounds a little bit different than "if" they bust. I'm quoting you, not pulling things out of thin air.

The fact that they are currently making offers to players shows that this offseason isnt over. I'm not saying that the FO doesnt make mistakes, i'm just saying that people need to wait and let it play out.

This trade might not look the best, but dont act like you know what the FO is doing, or not doing, right.

[timvp]

Unless somehow Butler and Scola bust

If you are going to bold the first part, you have to bold the "and" as well. What are the chances that Scola and Butler are both busts the rest of their career? Probably much less than the chance that one of them becomes a quality starter in the league.

[jag]

If you are going to bold the first part, you have to bold the "and" as well. What are the chances that Scola and Butler are both busts the rest of their career? Probably much less than the chance that one of them becomes a quality starter in the league.

Agreed, but lets wait and see WHY they let go of Scola and butler go for so little before we declare the spurs FO and holt incompetent.

[timvp]

Agreed, but lets wait and see WHY they let go of Scola and butler go for so little before we declare the spurs FO and holt incompetent.Yeah, I've said that all along.

But as of now with no other move justifying it, The Trade is going to be a hard one for Spurs fans to digest until they see what, if anything, follows it.

[whottt]

The Rockets have 4 slow bigmen timvp...I think Butler is the fastest one....hell it might be Mutombo.

At least your boy Bonner is going to get on the court though...and Oberto is as fast as any of them.

Elson is going to look like he comes from a different planet against these guys...

[jag]

Yeah, I've said that all along.

But as of now with no other move justifying it, The Trade is going to be a hard one for Spurs fans to digest until they see what, if anything, follows it.

I'll also have a tough time digesting it if the worst possible scenario comes to fruition, i expect that from all spurs fans...

but i'm not going to act like the last 10 years didnt happen, and happen with this same core of FO personnel.

[whottt]

What this all boils down to is that you think a second round pick would have been better than the 7 mil or what ever...

I think the Spurs were legitimately interested in Vassilis, ...and figured a shot at signing him is better than anyone else they were being offered, I am 100% certain of that after seeing the kid play...and if not...the money is better than the second round pick...since the last second round pick make our roster was the 99 pick.


I just don't get the outrage over this trade...except you guys think we could get more than we got...and don't like the Rockets....or else you wanted to get nothing. And you'd rather develop guys that don't fit, or hold on to ones that don't want to be here, or don't have skills to complement the existing core...

What?

What more could we have gotten?

And how are any of the trades we turned down less of a threat to our title chances than Scola on the Rockets?

Giving the Cavs a PG(help with Bibby) or SCola? That scares me more...giving one to the Bulls? That scares me more.


You know what the #1 thing we can do to help us...even agains the Rockets and Cavs is?

Get someone to put on TMac and Banzi and LeBron etc...what guy did we turn down that could help us there?


Hey...I read the Sonics are going after PJ Brown...why not Butler? Or Scola? How come no Chuck Hayes if Butler and Scola are so good?


Ask Kupchak how that not trading to a divisional rival thing turned out for him...


Spurs FO, even limited by Holt>timvp and MB imitating GhostWriter


Holting Pattern Redux < the first time I read it.


There was never anything wrong with the Holting Pattern...it was that blind mad pursuit of the Second Superstar that screwed us up and nearly every blunder by the FO you guys point out...is tied into the pursuit of Kidd. I see absolutely nothing wrong with what the Spurs have done here. Cap space is a good thing...it's let's you get guys like Robert Horry etc...when Kidd stands you up. Plenty of teams with bloated payrolls and tons of over-rated star players around the NBA...me? I'll take 3 titles in 5 years...just about as good as any NBA team has ever been.

[Supergirl]

Same rep that Butler came to the Spurs with, yet Pop wasn't impressed. I think Butler and Milicic are a lot a like - lots of potential, yet mysteriously no coach seems to be able to manifest that potential. If Pop and Larry Brown can't bring it out in Butler, I don't think Van Gundy will be able to.

[GhostofAlfrederickHughes]

Same rep that Butler came to the Spurs with, yet Pop wasn't impressed. I think Butler and Milicic are a lot a like - lots of potential, yet mysteriously no coach seems to be able to manifest that potential. If Pop and Larry Brown can't bring it out in Butler, I don't think Van Gundy will be able to.van Gundy got canned. Butler is now Rick Adelman's project.

[Solid D]

I just see the trade as the Spurs having two assets that didn't fit quite right and getting rid of them to open up a slot for one player who does fit them. If Ludden is right and they knew Spanoulis would forfeit the $1.9M commitment, the cash doesn't have to go to the buyout and the Spurs are now freer to get a player that fits them, even if another move is needed.

I may be wrong about this and the Spurs may not make another player move, but I would be very disappointed in the closet-cleaning of at least one Armani.

[ShoogarBear]

In this specific case, I don't think that's true. Unless somehow Butler and Scola bust or the Spurs use the money to do something else, a dead person could have made a better trade than the Spurs just made.Once again, it doesn't really matter what Butler and Scola do, a dead person could have done better because of their worth right now.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Agreed, but lets wait and see WHY they let go of Scola and butler go for so little before we declare the spurs FO and holt incompetent.

I think we've already established that 6 million dollars is why they let them go.

[SAGambler]

Odd, but here is what comes to mind about Butler.

It's the old commercial. The guy is sitting at a table in a Chinese Restaurant with an all-you-can-eat buffet. The Chinese guy comes over to the table and says "Big Boy..You leave now..You been here for fo our".

I think that's what they see as the problem with Butler, not being able to keep the weight off. The first SL game I watched he seemed to be huffing and puffing before the end of the 1st quarter. I think they just decided he would never be able to keep in shape and that isn't going to cut it on a Spurs squad.

Scola, I think it just came down to the fact they had put up with the demands to be brought over, knowing they had no place for him to fit on the roster, so they took what they could get for him and hoped they could find a piece they needed.

I think Butler will probably never reach his potential in the NBA.

Scola, well, we'll just have to wait and see if he is as good as many think he will be.

[BacktoBasics]

I look at it this way. Yes the Spur could have gotten more in return. When I say more I mean at least some marginal talent but it would have come with a contract. That marginal talent probably wouldn't have done that much for this team other than soak up a roster spot for a couple of year while eating some of the cap space to boot.

I don't think mid level to upper level talent was ever available in any trade scenario. So rather than have another contract on the books with a player that has mediocore to long shot talent they simply choose to have nothing and look to the future with less in cap space and a free roster spot.

Scola wasn't coming anyway the bridge was burned at some point.

[sandman]

I just see the trade as the Spurs having two assets that didn't fit quite right and getting rid of them to open up a slot for one player who does fit them. If Ludden is right and they knew Spanoulis would forfeit the $1.9M commitment, the cash doesn't have to go to the buyout and the Spurs are now freer to get a player that fits them, even if another move is needed.

I may be wrong about this and the Spurs may not make another player move, but I would be very disappointed in the closet-cleaning of at least one Armani.

Observations from living in Houston:

Local media/fans are creaming their shorts over both Scola and Butler, talking about how they will both be major components to making a championship run. They are very much excited about the POTENTIAL of both players, and unfortunately, they are setting expectations based on that potential. You know, like some Spurs fans this last year.

Yes, Scola is a proven international player. Yes, Butler showed in NY that he has game (at least in the Eastern Conf.). However, through all the crowing I am hearing here in Houston about how the Rockets got one over on the Spurs, it ALMOST seems as if they completely and utterly fail to realize that neither of these players contributed one iota to the championship run this last year.

IMO, the Spurs did not weaken their team for this year because of that fact. Did we weaken the future of the team? We won't know that until we get down the road a bit. That is the thing about potential: it can kick you in the balls. I think that some of the contention with trading away both bigs was that the Spurs consistently pick in the lower range of the first round, and there are only so many time we can get lucky with late picks.

Scola seems like one of those lucky picks, but to your point, it did not seem like he was going to be a good fit for the Spurs for some reason. Butler, as a FA pickup, was obviously not progressing as they thought he should. It doesn't make either of them scrubs; nor are they both sure things that will haunt us forever. In a situation where the Spurs needed to either keep playing the gamble of getting lucky in late rounds, or setting themselves up both financially and with the roster spots to go after a big FA signing, it would seem that they chose the FA route, even it won't be until next year.

And for what it is worth, the Rockets still won't make it out of the first round for two reasons:

1. Their PG's are Mike James and Skip To My Lou

2. A glacier could outrun most of the Rocket's big men

[wildbill2u]

While this take may be a little over the top, I think it's closer to hitting its mark than other takes where the writers think the Spurs can do no wrong.
Re Butler: "Scola will be a star, but he isn't the real steal. It's Butler. .. The trade to Houston, where he figures to get major minutes at the power forward spot, is his new lease on NBA life."

Do you see Butler as a PF --and further getting major minutes there when they have Scola? Did this really hit the mark.

[BacktoBasics]

Re Butler: "Scola will be a star, but he isn't the real steal. It's Butler. .. The trade to Houston, where he figures to get major minutes at the power forward spot, is his new lease on NBA life."

Do you see Butler as a PF --and further getting major minutes there when they have Scola? Did this really hit the mark.
How many new leases on life does this guy need?

[sandman]

Re Butler: "Scola will be a star, but he isn't the real steal. It's Butler. .. The trade to Houston, where he figures to get major minutes at the power forward spot, is his new lease on NBA life."

Do you see Butler as a PF --and further getting major minutes there when they have Scola? Did this really hit the mark.

Seriously, this groupthink is being propogated all over town here in Houston. Houston is the third team to see the "potential" in Butler, never mind that he could not crack perhaps the weakest center rotation on a championship team since the Bulls teams that had Purdue, Wennington and Longely.

[ArgSpursFan]

what scares me the most about this trade is that the rockets front court with Yao and Scola playing Well( I mean not spectacular)will become way more efective tham last year.
Think of this:When the Rockets face the Spurs,they are gonna put Scola on Oberto(who has been the X factor for the spurs in the last playoffs)and he knows Fabri very very well,and Yao on Timmy.
So those matchups can go down like this:
Scola>Fabri(unfortunely) :depressed
Yao & Timmy(a push)

[whottt]

I know you didn't just say Yao VS Timmy = a push.

Oberto VS Scola is the push.

Tmac is the only Rocket that is going to have an advantage against his man.

Duncan Yao is most certainly is not a push...it's decidedly in favor of Duncan and since Yao is the better offensive player out of he and Scola(and arguably TMac as well)...I think it'll be just great to have Duncan foul Yao out of the game.

And you can't defend intelligence...which is what Oberto has in abundance...Oberto doesn't have any set moves he uses with regularity...it's mostly rebounding and situational putbacks...

And if Scola actually plays D...it'll be a first. Ditto if he crashes the boards...if he was willing to crash the boards...he'd be here now.


And I know you aren't saying Oberto is going to defend Scola...Duncan will defend Scola...and destroy him....Oberto or Elson, will defend Yao..

I wouldn't count on Yao defending Duncan...it'll be Scola...and then you are going to understand what defense, or lack of it, is.

[ArgSpursFan]

I didn´t said who was gonna get scola,I said who Scola was going to get on D,And that´s fabricio,you can count on that.

[whottt]

That would mean Yao guards Duncan...that is not going to happen because Yao is a more valuable player...they will not waste him on defending Duncan, since he cannot stop Duncan anyway, they will waste the less valuable player...Scola.

Yao = #1 pick, franchise C.
Scola = 57th pick...not a franchise anything.


I hope you're right though...I hope they do put Yao on Duncan.

[ArgSpursFan]

That would mean Yao guards Duncan...that is not going to happen because Yao is a more valuable player...they will not waste him on defending Duncan, since he cannot stop Duncan anyway, they will waste the less valuable player...Scola.

Yao = #1 pick, franchise C.
Scola = 57th pick...not a franchise anything.

yeah,right...just like manu,huh? :fro

[L.I.T]

I must be missing something here.

When you have a great offensive pivot, a guy who attracts a lot of attention in the half-court, hasn't the best combination been to plug a 'rugged', defensive rebounding big next to him who can occasionally hit the mid-range jumper and play smart? This is supposed to be the guy who will body up on the other teams primary big on defense and keep the other team honest on the offensive end.

For example, Horace Grant/AC Green next to Shaq, or Robinson next to Duncan (and Oberto/Nazr/Rasho to a certain extent), Otis Thorpe and Olajuwon, Oakley with Ewing.

Scola will definitely help with taking offensive pressure off of Yao. But the tough, defensive presence? As has been indicated, not bloody likely.

[whottt]

yeah,right...just like manu,huh? :fro


You insult Manu by comparing his talent to Scola's. You insult him greatly.

[ArgSpursFan]

You insult Manu by comparing his talent to Scola's. You insult him greatly.

you actually did by saying that a late second round pick don´t mean shit.
Sorry Wottt,keep trying.

[whottt]

I must be missing something here.

When you have a great offensive pivot, a guy who attracts a lot of attention in the half-court, hasn't the best combination been to plug a 'rugged', defensive rebounding big next to him who can occasionally hit the mid-range jumper and play smart? This is supposed to be the guy who will body up on the other teams primary big on defense and keep the other team honest on the offensive end.

For example, Horace Grant/AC Green next to Shaq, or Robinson next to Duncan (and Oberto/Nazr/Rasho to a certain extent), Otis Thorpe and Olajuwon, Oakley with Ewing.

Scola will definitely help with taking offensive pressure off of Yao. But the tough, defensive presence? As has been indicated, not bloody likely.



In defense of ArgSpursFan...believe it or not...he's not saying Scola is a great defensive player...he's saying he could defend Oberto, because he knows his game, and probably because there's some kind of Argie rivalry there...and he's probably right about that. But he's mistaken IMO, if he thinks the Rockets aren going to waste Yao on Duncan...who he can't come close to stopping.

Adelman values offense more than defense...he's not going to waste his most effieicent scorer in a futle attempt to stop Duncan IMO...that would be extremely uncommon in todays NBA on deep teams...that's why Duncan and Shaq are seldom matched up..even when they were the best defensive bigs on their respective teams.

[whottt]

you actually did by saying that a late second round pick don´t mean shit.
Sorry Wottt,keep trying.



Manu wasn't a good player when he was taken with that pick, in 1999, 4 years before he made it to the NBA...and he improved exponentially. Scola hasn't really gotten much better at all. Scola is probably first round talent...but he's not anywhere near number one pick talent. Yao isn't exactly up to #1 pick talent either...unless he's being compared to Scola.



Manu is a better basketball player than Yao...and Yao is better than Scola.

[hater]

No doubt Scola will guard Duncan and will get killed.

but Yao/Scola on offense will be fun to watch

[whottt]

but Yao on offense will be fun to watch

Fixed...

You do realize Duncan has graded out as the best defensive player in the NBA for 2 years straight now...

Do you honestly think Scola is going to do anything against the anchor of the best NBA defense in history?

[whottt]

And Oberto has his problems with traditional NBA C's...but he's eaten International C's for lunch...Oberto punked Okur...the much bigger Okur.


Who do you think guards all those guys in international play during crunch time for team Argie? It's not Scola...it's Oberto.

[AFBlue]

Below is Marc Stein's take on the deal from a chat on ESPN.com....FWIW.


Mike, San Antonio: What do you think of the Spurs' Scola/Butler trade? I thought they gave both of those assets up for too little (nothing in fact).

Marc Stein: (11:14 AM ET ) They definitely did not want to trade him to Houston. Scola was close to going to Cleveland in that Bibby three-way. But SA simply felt it could not pass up on overall savings of $7 million so took the gamble of sending Scola to a neighbor. The Spurs were a mere $200K over the tax line last season, but that meant they didn't receive the payment ($1.8 million for '06-07) that teams got back for staying under the tax line.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=16556

[hater]

Fixed...

You do realize Duncan has graded out as the best defensive player in the NBA for 2 years straight now...

Do you honestly think Scola is going to do anything against the anchor of the best NBA defense in history?

you obviously don't pay attention to Duncan on D. he always helps on D. so Scola who is crafty will get his. Scola is also a good passer so I see this team working good on O after a while of getting used to.

[whottt]

I can't believe I am having to explain the greatness of Manu to an Argentine...

Here's the deal Argie Baby...

You national team isn't jack shit without Manu on it...he makes every thing on it go. And when he is gone...it's run will be over....unless you guys got a another Argie I haven't seen yet that compares to Manu.

Manu is the NBA Champion, the Olympic Champion, the European Champion...not Scola. He won an Olympic Medal...on Manu's team...when Manu got hurt in the 2002 WC...Argentina didn't do shit...no World Championship.


Manu = European MVP, Euroleague Finals MVP, Olympic MVP...and he made a pretty good run at the 05 Finals MVP.

Scola can't hold Manu's jock.

[sandman]

I didn´t said who was gonna get scola,I said who Scola was going to get on D,And that´s fabricio,you can count on that.

Nah, they will make him defend Duncan so that Yao can guard the lesser offensive big man, which is Oberto in the case of the Spurs. This will be for two reasons:

1. Yao is not quick (yes, I realize that is a vast understatement) and would be better suited to guard Oberto who trolls around the lane for backdoors and putbacks, versus Duncan who can move out to about 18 feet with consistency. While Oberto can pop to the high post and hit that shot if needed, that is generally not where he is looking for his opportunities.

2. Yao will be the main offensive option on this team, and his size/conditioning/general ploddingness does not allow him to exert too much effort on the defensive end and still be a productive offensive player. For his height he is not an exceptional rebounder or shot blocker.

In a sense, Scola and Yao play the same type of basketball. Gifted offensively, but average in defense and rebounding. IMO, they will not compliment each other in the way that a DRob and Duncan did with the whole offense/defense scheme. Doesn't make either of them a bad player, just that they play the same game.

Scola will get the task of defending Duncan, but in all honesty neither would be shutting Timmy down. It is just not their strength. I realize that you are an Argie fan, but it is not realistic that they are going to risk foul trouble on Yao guarding Duncan just to let Scola guard someone whom he knows how to play against. This is Yao's team.

[whottt]

you obviously don't pay attention to Duncan on D. he always helps on D. so Scola who is crafty will get his. Scola is also a good passer so I see this team working good on O after a while of getting used to.



:yawn


And you must not have watched a Spurs game in the Duncan era.

The only guys Duncan can't handle are Shaq...and anyone faster than he is...which excludes every big man on the Rockets Team.

[Streakyshooter08]

I can see the 7 mio saving but I just don't understand that there was NO team in the east that would have taken Butler/Scola for nothing...

[whottt]

I'm tellin ya...the longer I see Mutombo on the Rockets bench and Scola off of it...the better. Ditto Chuck Hayes and Scola.

[sandman]

I'm tellin ya...the longer I see Mutombo on the Rockets bench and Scola off of it...the better.

Some of these Scola lovers seem to think that he will be the given the better defensive assignments and still put up the same level of offensive numbers that he does in Europe. They do realize that Yao is The Man on this team, right? Anything Scola gets will be secondary to that statement.

He will be an important cog in the Rocket's plan, just like he would have been in SA. But on either team, he is/was never going to be The Man.

[whottt]

Arg...after Duncan gets hold of Scola...and pays him back for the 2004 Olympics...I reccomend you give him Kenyon Martin's phone number so he can talk to someone who will understand what it's like to the property of Tim Duncan.

[whottt]

Some of these Scola lovers seem to think that he will be the given the better defensive assignments and still put up the same level of offensive numbers that he does in Europe. They do realize that Yao is The Man on this team, right? Anything Scola gets will be secondary to that statement.

He will be an important cog in the Rocket's plan, just like he would have been in SA. But on either team, he is/was never going to be The Man.



Everyone is giving Scola credit for Manu's achievements...I know. Even the Argies are doing it...when their careers obviously speak for themselves....

One guy wins no matter where he goes, championships, whether it be as a star, or a supporting player, off the bench, or in the starters slot, he always finds a way to make his teams the best...and the other guy has only won when he's been on Manu's team. The rest of the time he has faltered.

One guy is the Man(u)...and the other guy isn't.

[ArgSpursFan]

Arg...after Duncan gets hold of Scola...and pays him back for the 2004 Olympics...I reccomend you give him Kenyon Martin's phone number so he can talk to someone who will understand what it's like to the property of Tim Duncan.

Duncan is the best PF ever,on Offense and D.Not questions about it.
But,Does Scola make the Rockets better tham what they were?I think He does.
reasons why:
1-He wont be the main guy.That takes pressure out of him,just like in the Arg.national team.
2-High BBIQ.Adelmar knows that,and will try to explote that out of him and Yao too.
3-Big Heart.The guy is a warrior,He gives 110% night in and out,like most of Argies in the NBA.

Of course He wont be a franshise player,but he can be a 15/7 guy,and If Adelmar can make him a better passer tham what He alreay is,can average 3/4 apg also.

[whottt]

The thing is....in the 2002 WC...when Manu got injured...who stepped up out of Scola and Oberto? On offense....Oberto did, not Scola. Scola was yonger then..but still, he didn't step up...he stepped down. Oberto stepped up.

Scola hasn't done any kind of stepping up without Manu...Can he play better on Manu's team? Sure...but so can my grandma...that doesn't mean they are equal.

[ArgSpursFan]

The thing is....in the 2002 WC...when Manu got injured...who stepped up out of Scola and Oberto? On offense....Oberto did, not Scola. Scola was yonger then..but still, he didn't step up...he stepped down. Oberto stepped up.

Scola hasn't done any kind of stepping up without Manu...Can he play better on Manu's team? Sure...but so can my grandma...that doesn't mean they are equal.

Don´t forget that Scola is way younger tham Fabricio.
In 2002 Oberto was on his Prime and Scola was only 21.
Right now Scola has the same age tham Oberto in 2002.So watch out.

[sandman]

Everyone is giving Scola credit for Manu's achievements...I know. Even the Argies are doing it...when their careers obviously speak for themselves....

One guy wins no matter where he goes, championships, whether it be as a star, or a supporting player, off the bench, or in the starters slot, he always finds a way to make his teams the best...and the other guy has only won when he's been on Manu's team. The rest of the time he has faltered.

One guy is the Man(u)...and the other guy isn't.

I wanted Scola to come to the Spurs because I thought that he could have been a great addition to what we already had - a championship level team. I have been weighing in on these threads because there are some who think that we gave the Rockets the thing that they were missing to make them a championship level team. That is simply not the case. They got an offensive minded power forward to go with their offensive minded center to run an offensive minded scheme. Quite simply, they do not have a balanced roster because they lack the team speed to run an uptempo style. They are hoping to run a high post big man passing game to make up for their lack of speed and defense. That right there is enough to say that the Rockets have not propelled themselves into the Finals talk. The deal is sealed when people start making comments about Butler this season getting serious minutes on this team.

[sandman]

Don´t forget that Scola is way younger tham Fabricio.
In 2002 Oberto was on his Prime and Scola was only 21.
Right now Scola has the same age tham Oberto in 2002.So watch out.

What exactly are your expectations for Scola on this team? That he will supercede either TMac or Yao as a scoring option? That he will be the formidable defensive presence that they need to anchor their defense? That he will add toughness and bang bodies?

Because if he doesn't do any one of those things, I am not sure what to watch out for. Does he have the potential to be a really good player? Sure. Sean Elliott was a really good player, but everyone knew that he was third fiddle to DRob and Duncan. Sean never dominated, he complimented. You are setting expectations too high if you think this will be Scola's team.

[whottt]

Duncan is the best PF ever,on Offense and D.Not questions about it.
But,Does Scola make the Rockets better tham what they were?I think He does.
reasons why:
1-He wont be the main guy.That takes pressure out of him,just like in the Arg.national team.
2-High BBIQ.Adelmar knows that,and will try to explote that out of him and Yao too.
3-Big Heart.The guy is a warrior,He gives 110% night in and out,like most of Argies in the NBA.

Of course He wont be a franshise player,but he can be a 15/7 guy,and If Adelmar can make him a better passer tham what He alreay is,can average 3/4 apg also.


He might make them better offensively...but they are a bad offensive team, their success last year was because of their defense. They are totally and completely changing direction....going from a defensive team to an offensive team....he helps them, but it's not going to be enough to make them Champions. Not right now anyway...some of their guys young guys may step up...I don't know...Bonzi can play like a SuperStar at times...he's the one that makes the most nervous...we should have held out for him in the trade. Just to get him off their freaking roster.

I just don't see it...it's like replacing Oberto with Scola and expecting the Spurs to be better because Scola is a better offensive player/worse defensive player...the Spurs don't win championships because of their offense so how much good is going to do to help it...at the expense of what does win them championships...their D?

[Mr. Body]

:lol

Defenders of The Trade trying to make out like this has made Houston worse.

[whottt]

:lol

Defenders of The Trade trying to make out like this has made Houston worse.


It makes their defense worse...and they are a defensive team. Is it really so hard to understand?

[ArgSpursFan]

What exactly are your expectations for Scola on this team? That he will supercede either TMac or Yao as a scoring option? That he will be the formidable defensive presence that they need to anchor their defense? That he will add toughness and bang bodies?

Because if he doesn't do any one of those things, I am not sure what to watch out for. Does he have the potential to be a really good player? Sure. Sean Elliott was a really good player, but everyone knew that he was third fiddle to DRob and Duncan. Sean never dominated, he complimented. You are setting expectations too high if you think this will be Scola's team.

I see Scola giving the Rockets something that they didn´t have:a big heart and a couple of big balls.
When you have a guy who gives 110 % night in and night out,it motivates the rest of the team to do so.
He wont be the main guy,and he loves that.
He probably be the 3rd or 4rd scoring option,but I see Him passing the ball well,and averaging about 4 apg.

[whottt]

:lol

Defenders of The Trade trying to make out like this has made Houston worse.


It's good to see you have such a sense of humor...Robertas...it helps you get through the rough times...

[ArgSpursFan]

It makes their defense worse...and they are a defensive team. Is it really so hard to understand?

they wanna be more offensive this year.

[sandman]

I see Scola giving the Rockets something that they didn´t have:a big heart and a couple of big balls.
When you have a guy who gives 110 % night in and night out,it motivates the rest of the team to do so.
He wont be the main guy,and he loves that.
He probably be the 3rd or 4rd scoring option,but I see Him passing the ball well,and averaging about 4 apg.

Sounds like you could be describing Oberto...

[sandman]

:lol

Defenders of The Trade trying to make out like this has made Houston worse.

Nonsense. No one is saying that he has made them worse. He made their defense worse, because he is not a shot blocker or a rebounder. Those are something critical for a power forward, especially when the center on the team is not known for those qualities either. I don't care how much this team will be able to score, pass, move without the ball. Their front line is defensively very weak. As PHX how that same scheme has worked out for them, and they are MUCH quicker than the Rockets.

[Mr. Body]

It's good to see you have such a sense of humor...Robertas...it helps you get through the rough times...

:lol

Give it up. Javtokas would have been better than Butler, wouldn't he?

Yeah, thought so.

Meanwhile, you contort yourself to defend this trade, coming up with truly bizarre reasons to do so.

[whottt]

they wanna be more offensive this year.


It's like needing a better piece for your car engine to win a race, and adding a shiny new horn instead. The horn may be prettier and make more noise than the engine piece...but it's not going to make the engine better.

[sandman]

:lol

Give it up. Javtokas would have been better than Butler, wouldn't he?

Yeah, thought so.

Meanwhile, you contort yourself to defend this trade, coming up with truly bizarre reasons to do so.

Is it really defending the trade, or just pointing out the excessiveness of the extremes of some opinions here. We all wanted Scola to be a Spur, but quite frankly his departure did not make the Spurs any less of a championship level team, nor did his arrival in Houston vault them to the top of the Vegas odds. There is a happy medium. Spurs risked the future with the trade and Houston got a good complementary player.

[whottt]

:lol

Give it up. Javtokas would have been better than Butler, wouldn't he?

Yeah, thought so.

Meanwhile, you contort yourself to defend this trade, coming up with truly bizarre reasons to do so.

Ehh...I don't see anything that was a lot better they could have done..and if nothing else getting Butler's salary off the books for next season helps us have more money if we can't do anything this year...

It didn't make the Rockets better in the way they needed to get better IMO...adding offense at the expense of their defense doesn't make them more threatening...adding offense while maintaining the defense is what would have made them more threatening...and the offensive upgrade isn't going to be near what you think it will be...

Do you think Scola is going to be as good a Juwan Howard? And don't say Juwan chokes...because Scola does too.

[hater]

It makes their defense worse...and they are a defensive team. Is it really so hard to understand?

their defense will be 10x worse. but 99% because of the fact that VanGundy is gone, not because of Scola :rolleyes

[whottt]

:lol

Give it up. Javtokas would have been better than Butler, wouldn't he?



Not for 3 mil per hear he wouldn't have been. He would't have gotten off the bench either...

I agree he has the skill set the Spurs need more than Butler...but once we got Elson Javtokas had nothing to offer us that Elson couldn't. They are both boneheads with athleticism...and Elson has the experience...he also hasn't had his body destroyed a motorcycle wreck. I liked Javtokas....more than Butler...but Elson was what made him redundant. Elson does everything better.

[whottt]

their defense will be 10x worse. but 99% because of the fact that VanGundy is gone, not because of Scola :rolleyes

That's a fair statement...I'd say it's more like 75% 25%...I don't think their D will be 10 times worse though, Adelman's not an idiot.

[sandman]

their defense will be 10x worse. but 99% because of the fact that VanGundy is gone, not because of Scola :rolleyes

Exactly. Adleman runs a different scheme that is more offensive minded, which is good for players like Yao and TMac that are offensive minded players. One would think that they would look for the 4 spot to be manned by a banger to help keep some semblance of defensive legitimacy. Right now between Yao, TMac, Scola, James and Battier, Shane is the only one who can play defense at a high level.

[AFBlue]

That's a fair statement...I'd say it's more like 75% 25%...I don't think their D will be 10 times worse though, Adelman's not an idiot.

And my ultimate point is that their offense will improve more than their defense will suffer...making them a better team overall.

But to label them a "defensive team" isn't right.

They WERE a "defensive team", but I would say that stereotyped pigeonhole goes out the window with them hiring Adelman and bringing in more offensive firepower.

[lotr1trekkie]

"Scola wiil be a star, 20 and 10, all star, rookie of the year, better than Zab etc." Wake up! If the Spurs really wanted him for what Houston is giving him we would have done it BUT---the Spurs don't need someone to come in for Tim which would have been Scola's position. We have Horry. Scola isn't a center like Fab. Scola would have sat on the bench behind Horry and Bonner until he adapted to our system. If Scola was good enough to start for us that would make Tim the center. OK, geniuses, sign Luis the Great and unload Zab and Elson. Tim always wanted to give way to a PF better than him. As for Butler he was traded so Yao could beat someone down the court during drills. Houston has also bit on Bonzi NotsoWells and Mike[ 5 team] James. The Spurs main problem is filling up the IR. White and Williams really showed next to nothing in both summer leagues. Ely and Big Baby are gone. WE all know that Mahinmi sucks. I just hope that someof the listers start to use their homeground vocabulary when they include Popovich in their insults. No MAJOR decisions are made without his approval. If Pop thought that Scola should be here this year he would be! Show some spine and go after Pop for these decisions.

[whottt]

And my ultimate point is that their offense will improve more than their defense will suffer...making them a better team overall.


And their offense isn't going to be improved as much as you think it will be...because they weren't built to be an offensive team....offensive teams get up and down the court, and the Rockets franchise player can't do that.

And...

Defense wins championships...giving up defense for offense hasn't been successful a single time that I can remember...giving up offense for defense, is something that has been.

Sin,

US

And Dallas as they got more competitive against us, and the Suns.

They didn't have a championship defense anyway....and they were a bad offensive team.




But to label them a "defensive team" isn't right.

They WERE a "defensive team", but I would say that stereotyped pigeonhole goes out the window with them hiring Adelman and bringing in more offensive firepower.

Again...Yao aint Amare...or even Vlade. They aren't going to be putting up 110 a game if Yao is playing 35 mins per game....unless they know how to score 4 on 5.

[whottt]

It's like replacing Bruce Bowen with Michael Finley...no thanks.

[pad300]

Lets have a quick review of the real world shall we -

Scola's replacing either A) Juwan Howard or B) Chuck Hayes in the starting lineup (assuming he doesn't bust). Howard is old (33 last season), has bad knees, and was never renowned as a defender. His main claim to fame is being massively overpaid for slightly above average production by a stupid GM...Chuck Hayes is a great kid, has a real nose for rebounds, and a non-stop motor. That said he's 6'6". He's also not the saviest, most skilled guy around. He's no defensive beast either (his opponents PER while playing PF is 16.5, http://www.82games.com/0607/06HOU10C.HTM).

I don't think anyone is disputing that Scola's better offensively. I'm not at all sure that he isn't a better option defensively. Remember, having Yao acting as backup in the paint is useful. Sure Yao lumbers, but he's A) HUGE and B) he actually tries hard, unlike half the bigmen in he NBA.

[sandman]

Lets have a quick review of the real world shall we -

Scola's replacing either A) Juwan Howard or B) Chuck Hayes in the starting lineup (assuming he doesn't bust). Howard is old (33 last season), has bad knees, and was never renowned as a defender. His main claim to fame is being massively overpaid for slightly above average production by a stupid GM...Chuck Hayes is a great kid, has a real nose for rebounds, and a non-stop motor. That said he's 6'6". He's also not the saviest, most skilled guy around. He's no defensive beast either (his opponents PER while playing PF is 16.5, http://www.82games.com/0607/06HOU10C.HTM).

I don't think anyone is disputing that Scola's better offensively. I'm not at all sure that he isn't a better option defensively. Remember, having Yao acting as backup is useful. Sure Yao lumbers, but he's A) HUGE and B) he actually tries hard, unlike half the bigmen in he NBA.

Would it be a correct premise to state that unless Scola scores more than Howard and Hayes combined, they essentially remained neutral at the position?

Howard - 5.0 PPG/4.4 RPG
Hayes - 3.7 PPG/6.4 RPG

Howard is already gone and Hayes is a free agent. Considering Scola would take the majority of minutes logged by both players, he would need to be at least a 10-10 guy just to keep up the same level of production. I don't doubt that he could probably get the 10 PPG, but the 10 RPG would be an unrealistic expectation, considering he has never done it.

[AFBlue]

And their offense isn't going to be improved as much as you think it will be...because they weren't built to be an offensive team....offensive teams get up and down the court, and the Rockets franchise player can't do that.



Actually agree with most of your post, but this point has false logic.

"Offensive teams" and "running teams" are not synonymous. They often go together, but all "offensive teams" are not also "running teams".

Secondly, I never said that Houston would be known as an "offensive" team. I simply said they wouldn't be known as a "defensive team".

They have a very good defender in Battier, a "bulldog" in Mike James, and a 7'5 300lb behemoth cloggin up the lane to the basket. So they won't be defensively inept.

And at each position they will have upgraded their offensive potential, especially at Coach. That coach will figure out a way to maximize offensive output from more than just Yao, who was the center of the offense under Van Gundy.

Bottom Line: They won't be an "offensive team" or a "defensive team"....they'll just be a "good team" or a "great team", depending on how they mesh.

[pad300]

Would it be a correct premise to state that unless Scola scores more than Howard and Hayes combined, they essentially remained neutral at the position?

Howard - 5.0 PPG/4.4 RPG
Hayes - 3.7 PPG/6.4 RPG

Howard is already gone and Hayes is a free agent. Considering Scola would take the majority of minutes logged by both players, he would need to be at least a 10-10 guy just to keep up the same level of production. I don't doubt that he could probably get the 10 PPG, but the 10 RPG would be an unrealistic expectation, considering he has never done it.

Just by being on the floor, he's going to make their offence considerably better. They have 2 guys who really need a double team to defend - TMac and Yao. They used to have 1 guy who you couldn't reliably double off of without getting burned - Battier. That left the defending team with 2 spots they could double off of - PG and and PF. Scola makes it 2 guys you can't reliably double off of without getting burned. 2 Doubles needed, only 1 player you can double off of... And Mike James is an upgrade over Alston... Yeah their offense will get better. He may only get 10 ppg and 6 rpg, but he'll help the floor spacing and flow enough that they will get significantly better on offence. I also doubt he's going to be much more of a defensive liability than Juwan Howard or Chuck Hayes, as posted above.

[sandman]

Just by being on the floor, he's going to make their offence considerably better. They have 2 guys who really need a double team to defend - TMac and Yao. They used to have 1 guy who you couldn't reliably double off of without getting burned - Battier. That left the defending team with 2 spots they could double off of - PG and and PF. Scola makes it 2 guys you can't reliably double off of without getting burned. 2 Doubles needed, only 1 player you can double off of... And Mike James is an upgrade over Alston... Yeah their offense will get better. He may only get 10 ppg and 6 rpg, but he'll help the floor spacing and flow enough that they will get significantly better on offence. I also doubt he's going to be much more of a defensive liability than Juwan Howard or Chuck Hayes, as posted above.

I think we both agree that he will be an effective player on a good team, unlike those who are calling this the worst trade the Spurs have ever made because they gave up the history of the franchise. Again, I won't go to the extreme and say that he won't help this team, but I'm not going to get into some man-crush suicide watch simply because we did not add another Argie to our team. No team makes every move perfectly. At least we can see the cap room/roster spot potentials that came about, without having to lose any of the primary/role players from the championship run.

[wildbill2u]

Actually agree with most of your post, but this point has false logic.

"Offensive teams" and "running teams" are not synonymous. They often go together, but all "offensive teams" are not also "running teams".

And at each position they will have upgraded their offensive potential, especially at Coach. That coach will figure out a way to maximize offensive output from more than just Yao, who was the center of the offense under Van Gundy.

Bottom Line: They won't be an "offensive team" or a "defensive team"....they'll just be a "good team" or a "great team", depending on how they mesh.
Houston's greatest needs were at PG and PF. They drafted Brooks, a short but very fast PG with scoring skills and picked up Scola so they have tried to shore up those areas.

Adelman likes to run and is more offensive minded than Van Gundy although VG had to work with what he had--and his two offensive stars were often off the court with injuries. Houstonians are expecting more offense and more entertainment with this crew although they may not be any better as other teams improve.

[sandman]

They have a very good defender in Battier, a "bulldog" in Mike James, and a 7'5 300lb behemoth cloggin up the lane to the basket. So they won't be defensively inept.

Not defensively inept. Of course not. But I don't believe that they will be defensively proficient either. Not a defensive team, but defensively proficient. James is a chucker, always has been. And that behemoth clogging the lane averaged less than 10 RPG and 1 BPG last season.

IMO, a motion offense with the big man passing out of the high post is the only thing that will get them winning more games this year because it will increase their scoring. They can't win by running and they can't win by defense. Wow, I just described the old Kings teams.

[pad300]

I think we both agree that he will be an effective player on a good team, unlike those who are calling this the worst trade the Spurs have ever made because they gave up the history of the franchise. Again, I won't go to the extreme and say that he won't help this team, but I'm not going to get into some man-crush suicide watch simply because we did not add another Argie to our team. No team makes every move perfectly. At least we can see the cap room/roster spot potentials that came about, without having to lose any of the primary/role players from the championship run.

I'll agree with the "effective player on a good team", I will say that I am nowhere near as sanguine about the trade. We may have layed the foundations for another Mavs level team in our division, which is REALLY bad. (former Rockets - 2 stars, 1 good roleplayer+ scrubs. Current Rockets - 2 Stars, 2 good roleplayers + scrubs, including an improved bench. Mavs - 1 Star, Dirk, 1 almost star, Howard, 2 good roleplayers, Terry and Harris, and a deep bench). We also got basically squat back for it - as it doesn't even really give us enough cap-space to maneuver. I my opinion, this was a very bad trade. Maybe not the worst in Spurs history, but a candidate for sure.

[wildbill2u]

According to the common wisdom of Houston fans, sportswriters and some statements from Adelman, they intend to move Yao out of the low post more and have him use his perimeter shooting skills.

That should mean that Scola will be expected to rebound more and work low in the paint a la Oberto.

[Mr. Body]

They can't win by running and they can't win by defense. Wow, I just described the old Kings teams.

A pretty damn good team a few calls from the Finals that was a greater threat to the Lakers than we were for three years.

[sandman]

I'll agree with the "effective player on a good team", I will say that I am nowhere near as sanguine about the trade. We may have layed the foundations for another Mavs level team in our division, which is REALLY bad. (former Rockets - 2 stars, 1 good roleplayer+ scrubs. Current Rockets - 2 Stars, 2 good roleplayers + scrubs, including an improved bench. Mavs - 1 Star, Dirk, 1 almost star, Howard, 2 good roleplayers, Terry and Harris, and a deep bench). We also got basically squat back for it - as it doesn't even really give us enough cap-space to maneuver. I my opinion, this was a very bad trade. Maybe not the worst in Spurs history, but a candidate for sure.

I understand the argument about planning for the future versus trying to win now, but how does this trade make the 2007-2008 Spurs a worse team? It doesn't. Does it make the Rockets a better team? On paper, sure. But a new coach, a new scheme, two new starters and two franchise players that are injury prone does not translate into a 60 win season and vault them into the Spurs/Mavs/Suns talk. Maybe 2-3 years from now it all makes a difference, but not this year. And quite frankly, I'm looking for the repeat and 5 in 10 years to validate the dynasty talk.

[sandman]

A pretty damn good team a few calls from the Finals that was a greater threat to the Lakers than we were for three years.

Way to focus on the three years out of the last 9 that we were not champs or a play away from being the champs.

Some of you are looking too hard for something to complain about...

[sandman]

According to the common wisdom of Houston fans, sportswriters and some statements from Adelman, they intend to move Yao out of the low post more and have him use his perimeter shooting skills.

That should mean that Scola will be expected to rebound more and work low in the paint a la Oberto.

Considering that rebounding has never been his strong suit, it will be interesting to see if he can be effective in this area.

[justanotherspursfan]

And my ultimate point is that their offense will improve more than their defense will suffer...making them a better team overall.

But to label them a "defensive team" isn't right.

They WERE a "defensive team", but I would say that stereotyped pigeonhole goes out the window with them hiring Adelman and bringing in more offensive firepower.
Their offense was horribly ineffective last year, because JVG sucks at offense. Given a creative offensive mind, they have all the tools to be a superior scoring team, and Adelman's likely good enough once this year's team meshes.

The real key will be piecing together a decent defense, especially for the playoffs. I don't think they're likely to accomplish that this year, given the guys they have. They may be better this year than last year, but I don't see any reason to think they're going to be a real threat to us for another year or two.

[Solid D]

Aaron Brooks could be an exciting rookie for the Rockets. He's small but he can really play. That doesn't equate to team success, necessarily, but I think he's a better offensive player than Skip to my Lou (not defensively). Brooks could play a nice change of pace scorer/creator option off the bench. Forget Mike James at the lead guard. That he ain't.

[Booharv]

Once again, it doesn't really matter what Butler and Scola do, a dead person could have done better because of their worth right now.

Agreed.

[pad300]

I understand the argument about planning for the future versus trying to win now, but how does this trade make the 2007-2008 Spurs a worse team? It doesn't. Does it make the Rockets a better team? On paper, sure. But a new coach, a new scheme, two new starters and two franchise players that are injury prone does not translate into a 60 win season and vault them into the Spurs/Mavs/Suns talk. Maybe 2-3 years from now it all makes a difference, but not this year. And quite frankly, I'm looking for the repeat and 5 in 10 years to validate the dynasty talk.

This franchise's success has always been built on keeping the long and short term in balance. See how we lost SJax, by not being willing to outbid ourselves. See how we dumped Rasho, Nazr, and Malik. See how we tend to roll late 2nds forward a draft (see Milwaukee last year and Toronto this year). See how our drafting tends to be very speculative, looking for good long term prospects we can watch develop in Europe (Mahinmi, Javtokas, Scola, Sanikidze, Splitter)...

This trade didn't help in the short term, in that it brought nothing back, not even enough salary cap room to maneuver. It didn't fill any short term needs, eg. the long awaited "long SF". It expended at least 1 asset (Scola) and maybe 2 (Butler). It also generated minimal long term benefits, a 2009 second round pick.

The other thing the Spurs recent success has been built on is not throwing away assets. Need to dump Malik's contract - Bring in Nazr for immedate big man help, in a trade many thought we won in the short term, and even in the long term looks roughly even; especially with Malik costing the Knicks something like $14 million this year... Rasho's contract gets turned into Bonner, Williams and a 2nd round pick...

In general, success in the NBA seems to be built on keeping the bigger picture in view, and weighing both short and long term benefits. This trade brought in little of either, apparently being excuted for the owners (NOT the organizations) financial benefit only.

As far as the transformation of the rockets talk; just look at what happened to the Mavs. Pre Avery : soft choking bitches. Add new head coach (Avery), New starters (Terry, Dampier). That season they finally got some guts, coming back against the Rockets, and playing well against a strong Suns team. From that year on, we have to worry about them in the playoffs, not just writing them off as another series win. In one year, with 2 new starters. The next year, they beat us and go to the finals. After that, well, they meet the Warriors, but we'll see if they bounce back.

[sandman]

This franchise's success has always been built on keeping the long and short term in balance. See how we lost SJax, by not being willing to outbid ourselves. See how we dumped Rasho, Nazr, and Malik. See how we tend to roll late 2nds forward a draft (see Milwaukee last year and Toronto this year). See how our drafting tends to be very speculative, looking for good long term prospects we can watch develop in Europe (Mahinmi, Javtokas, Scola, Sanikidze, Splitter)...

This trade didn't help in the short term, in that it brought nothing back, not even enough salary cap room to maneuver. It didn't fill any short term needs, eg. the long awaited "long SF". It expended at least 1 asset (Scola) and maybe 2 (Butler). It also generated minimal long term benefits, a 2009 second round pick.

The other thing the Spurs recent success has been built on is not throwing away assets. Need to dump Malik's contract - Bring in Nazr for immedate big man help, in a trade many thought we won in the short term, and even in the long term looks roughly even; especially with Malik costing the Knicks something like $14 million this year... Rasho's contract gets turned into Bonner, Williams and a 2nd round pick...

In general, success in the NBA seems to be built on keeping the bigger picture in view, and weighing both short and long term benefits. This trade brought in little of either, apparently being excuted for the owners (NOT the organizations) financial benefit only.

As far as the transformation of the rockets talk; just look at what happened to the Mavs. Pre Avery : soft choking bitches. Add new head coach (Avery), New starters (Terry, Dampier). That season they finally got some guts, coming back against the Rockets, and playing well against a strong Suns team. From that year on, we have to worry about them in the playoffs, not just writing them off as another series win. In one year, with 2 new starters. The next year, they beat us and go to the finals. After that, well, they meet the Warriors, but we'll see if they bounce back.

Depending on how you look at it, I counted around 10 good personnel moves that you documented from the last few years when we have been winning championships. Seems to me that we could look at the bigger picture when it comes to a brain fart transaction like the Scola deal and realize that the good FO decisions have vastly outweighed the bad ones. We don't win 3 in 5 years because our FO is screwing up on a consistent basis.

As far as the Rockets go, there are too many assumptions:

That a new coach and a new scheme will improve the Rockets won-loss record. They won 50+ last season. It would be a very large assumption to get to 60 wins, which is what it will take to overcome the Elite 3.

That the new guys will mesh well by the end of the year, or at all for that matter. Team chemistry is a fickle thing. See: Payton and Malone on Lakers.

That the Rockets have improved and will make up ground on the Elite 3. Where have the Spurs/Mavs/Suns declined that would allow Houston to make that leap simply with internal improvement?

[spurster]

I see Whott is still trying to convince himself singlehandedly that this wasn't a bad trade.

I think a better angle is to note that no other NBA team was willing to made a better trade with the Spurs. If Scola is so good, then why wasn't the whole NBA knocking on the Spurs door. Well, there is uncertainty about whether Scola can perform on the NBA level, and also, there is a kind of unity in the NBA to not help the Spurs any.

I still think it's a bad trade, but the Spurs are too deep in bigmen and seem to be committed to a Duncan/Oberto/Bonner rotation to some extent this year, but much more after this year.

[objective]

As far as the Rockets go, there are too many assumptions:

That a new coach and a new scheme will improve the Rockets won-loss record. They won 50+ last season. It would be a very large assumption to get to 60 wins, which is what it will take to overcome the Elite 3.

That the new guys will mesh well by the end of the year, or at all for that matter. Team chemistry is a fickle thing. See: Payton and Malone on Lakers.

That the Rockets have improved and will make up ground on the Elite 3. Where have the Spurs/Mavs/Suns declined that would allow Houston to make that leap simply with internal improvement?


In general I would tend to agree with the chemistry part, but I feel your example is very poor. If Malone was as healthy against the Pistons as he was against the Spurs I think the Lakers win that finals. Even so, they still got to the finals. Not exactly a strong condemnation of less than hoped for chemistry.

[pad300]

Depending on how you look at it, I counted around 10 good personnel moves that you documented from the last few years when we have been winning championships. Seems to me that we could look at the bigger picture when it comes to a brain fart transaction like the Scola deal and realize that the good FO decisions have vastly outweighed the bad ones. We don't win 3 in 5 years because our FO is screwing up on a consistent basis.

As far as the Rockets go, there are too many assumptions:

That a new coach and a new scheme will improve the Rockets won-loss record. They won 50+ last season. It would be a very large assumption to get to 60 wins, which is what it will take to overcome the Elite 3.

That the new guys will mesh well by the end of the year, or at all for that matter. Team chemistry is a fickle thing. See: Payton and Malone on Lakers.

That the Rockets have improved and will make up ground on the Elite 3. Where have the Spurs/Mavs/Suns declined that would allow Houston to make that leap simply with internal improvement?


We may have layed the foundations for another Mavs level team in our division

Understand the meaning of the word "may" much? It is hardly a certainty, but putting the pieces in place for essentially no return was stupid.

As far as needing the Spurs/Mavs/Suns to decline for Houston to join the big league, who are you kidding. The Spurs were not a worse team from 02/03 (defeat to the Lakers) to 03/04 (Win it all), yet in that span, both Dallas transformed into serious contender (as I discussed above), and the Suns transformed from perenial also ran to consistent division winner (even if I don't think their style can win in the playoffs). I'll admit, the lakers fell off, but that didn't give either the Suns or Dallas any new players or coaching... THIS IS NOT A ZERO SUM GAME. Internal improvement can be enough. If the chemistry works out; in recent examples, it has worked out for Dallas, it has worked out for the Suns (added 2 startes: Nash & Q-rich and coach D'antoni at the midpoint of previous season). Houston wasn't a bad team last year. It wasn't a bad team the year before. They have had significant injury issues both those years. Adding a new coach and a starter at what may be their weakest position for no significant return, is STUPID. Anybody who thinks that this trade was vaguely a good idea needs to pull their head out of their ass and take a look around at recent history...

[ArgSpursFan]

Sounds like you could be describing Oberto...
why not?
do you see any diference between argentinians players?
of course they are not the same,but the hustle,temple,and big heart is something that they all have in comun.

[ArgSpursFan]

I see Whott is still trying to convince himself singlehandedly that this wasn't a bad trade.

I think a better angle is to note that no other NBA team was willing to made a better trade with the Spurs. If Scola is so good, then why wasn't the whole NBA knocking on the Spurs door. Well, there is uncertainty about whether Scola can perform on the NBA level, and also, there is a kind of unity in the NBA to not help the Spurs any.

I still think it's a bad trade, but the Spurs are too deep in bigmen and seem to be committed to a Duncan/Oberto/Bonner rotation to some extent this year, but much more after this year.
because the spurs weren´t asking averybody to trade scola,they wanted to get rid of butler,and Scola´s right were the sweet part of the deal.
No one but Houston wanted to take a gamble on Butler,that´s why Scola ended up 200 miles away from S.A.
BTW,there was a bunch of teams trying to get Scola´s rights,not just the Rockets.

[ShoogarBear]

I know you didn't just say Yao VS Timmy = a push.
I stopped reading at that point.

Duncan = never lost in the first round.

Yao = never won in the first round.

[sandman]

Anybody who thinks that this trade was vaguely a good idea needs to pull their head out of their ass and take a look around at recent history...

My argument was not that this was a bad trade. It was a horrible trade. On that we could not agree more. I have not been attempting to defend the trade, I have merely been opining that this trade did not make the Rockets an instant title contender. As Shoog pointed out in another thread, that we ended up with both Villi and Beno on the same team speaks volumes as to how we got owned in this trade.

We are assuming that the Rockets, with a new coach and a few new key players, will not only achieve last year's success but exceed it as well. I am just not convinced that this coming year will be any better than a 50 win team again. The few games extra games that they may win due to a more free flowing offense will be given right back because of integrating two rooks and a career journeyman with their existing roster, and everyone learning a new system. Does that mean that they will not continue to improve in coming years? Who knows, but the odds look like they are putting something good in place for a few years down the road.

And yes, I understand that standing pat is the same as moving backwards when it comes to trying to stay on top of the mountain, but since we are talking history, the Spurs have played with the rosters every year after winning a championship without success. Maybe standing pat this year was the best thing for this club. The Rockets may have closed the gap somewhat, but I for one am not willing to put money on them in a seven game series this coming year against the Spurs/Mavs/Suns.

[sandman]

why not?
do you see any diference between argentinians players?
of course they are not the same,but the hustle,temple,and big heart is something that they all have in comun.

Only in that you said Scola was better than Oberto, then proceeded to describe traits that easily apply to both players. Since hustle, heart and passing skills seem to be inherent in Argie big men, what basketball traits make Scola better than Oberto? I think that they are both marginal rebounders based on stats, but I do know that Oberto has a knack for offensive boards and tap outs. Does Scola play this same way, or is his superiority exclusively offensive? (seriously asking, because I have not seen Scola play much)

And yes, I love watching the Argie team play because of their passion, et al.

[biba]

Timvp, as you started again this discussion I suggest a poll!

Something like - you can rearrange it -:

The Butler/Scola move is :

- A Good move: tons of money and the Spurs got rid of 2 players who didn't fit in San Antonio and won't make Houston a contender

- An Average move: without much choice the FO made what they could at best. It traded Butler and his fat ass, got one free spot and money to maybe get one player. The gamble is on Scola: will he be a stud in the NBA?

- A Bad move: 1 of them could turn in a very good NBA player... for a division rival. In return? A free spot. Not that much.

- The Worst trade ever: Spurs got nothing for the best european player and a promising young center. And they made a fierce division rival an instant contender

[lotr1trekkie]

Prediction: Scola wil quickly become disallusioned in Houston as the YaoTracy and the 2 chuckers start taking 95% of the shots and he realizes he's just the garbage man. Call my play coach!! Don't hold your breathe Luis.