Lowered Expectations in Iraq

[Oh, Gee!!]

U.S. officials rethink hopes for Iraq democracy

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Nightmarish political realities in Baghdad are prompting American officials to curb their vision for democracy in Iraq. Instead, the officials now say they are willing to settle for a government that functions and can bring security.

A workable democratic and sovereign government in Iraq was one of the Bush administration's stated goals of the war.

But for the first time, exasperated front-line U.S. generals talk openly of non-democratic governmental alternatives, and while the two top U.S. officials in Iraq still talk about preserving the country's nascent democratic institutions, they say their ambitions aren't as "lofty" as they once had been.

"Democratic institutions are not necessarily the way ahead in the long-term future," said Brig. Gen. John "Mick" Bednarek, part of Task Force Lightning in Diyala province, one of the war's major battlegrounds.

The comments reflect a practicality common among Western diplomats and officials trying to win hearts and minds in the Middle East and other non-Western countries where democracy isn't a tradition.

The failure of Iraq to emerge from widespread instability is a bitter pill for the United States, which optimistically toppled the Saddam Hussein regime more than four years ago. Millions of Iraqis went to the polls to cast ballots, something that generated great promise for the establishment of a democratic system.

But Iraqi institutions, from the infrastructure to the national government, are widely regarded as ineffective in the fifth year of the war.

Read rest of story here:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/08/22/iraq.democracy/index.html

[hater]

they want to change their goal to:
"a government that functions and can bring security."

:lol

isnt' that what they had under Saddam??

fucking retarded

[Oh, Gee!!]

lolz

[ggoose25]

"Democratic institutions are not necessarily the way ahead in the long-term future," said Brig. Gen. John "Mick" Bednarek

:lmao :rollin

I couldve told you that before invading. These people are not ready for democracy. Shit even our own country can't run a fair democracy.

[xrayzebra]

:lmao :rollin

I couldve told you that before invading. These people are not ready for democracy. Shit even our own country can't run a fair democracy.

What a stupid assine statement. Not ready for democracy.
What are they ready for?


Damn glad we didn't have people like you when we were
fighting for our independence.

[ChumpDumper]

What are they ready for?Partition and ethnic cleansing. The latter is already happening.

After that democracy would be much easier. Might even have three of them instead of one.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Damn glad we didn't have people like you when we were
fighting for our independence.

That's the key difference: we were fighting for our independence.

[clambake]

Damn glad we didn't have people like you when we were
fighting for our independence.

you are the only one left that was here in 1776.

[ggoose25]

What a stupid assine statement. Not ready for democracy.
What are they ready for?


Damn glad we didn't have people like you when we were
fighting for our independence.

They need to be ruled by someone to keep their asses in check because they obviously can't do it, and we can't either.

The real stupidity is not on my part. I'm not the one who advocated going in trying to instill a democracy amongst people who have been at each others throats for 2000 years. They don't want to work together or compromise, both of which are vital to a functioning democracy. Wake the hell up!

Sorry to burst your bubble ray, but democracy isn't for everyone. It's the best form of government, and it works great in the Western world but it doesn't work everywhere. But of course your American hubris is blinding you from seeing that.

[ggoose25]

Partition and ethnic cleansing. The latter is already happening.

After that democracy would be much easier. Might even have three of them instead of one.
exactly.

[ggoose25]

And let me say that I would love to see a democratic Iraq. I wish they were ready to get along. Some might say that I'm just a defeatist. That I actually want them to fail only to see Bush's face in the mud. How dumb.

Its in our best interest to succeed. I don't care one way or the other how, or who gets the credit.

But I'm a realist. A functioning democracy is not in Iraq's near future. I suspect Petraeus' report to admit such unless Bush doctors it like he tried with the Surgeon General.

[Wild Cobra]

We know that most of the people want democracy. The older people remember a time before Saddam Hussain took over and executed the previous government. The younger people have now had a taste of democracy. They just still live in fear.

Much of what we have is similar to gang run parts of our inner cities. We simple have such things on a larger scale in Iraq, and the people are afraid of the gangs. Like these 'no snitch' policies people honor here.

Someday, as long as patriots here and there work together for freedom. They will have it. They won't have a system quite like ours, and their final results still may be a theocracy based system. What matters is a democracy that works for their culture.

You nay-sayers can say all you want. It just shows how pathetic you are.

There is progress. Yes it's slow, but it is there. As long as the average trend is progress... those who speak of defeat and leaving simply appear as ignorant children who are always saying "I want it now mommy."

Those of you to the left should listen to some right leaning talk radio. Over the last few years, I have head so many interviews with soldiers that you never hear on the mainstream media and from the leftist pundits. Most of our soldiers are proud to do their job over there. The news doesn’t cover them in proportion. All we seem to see are the dissenters.

These soldiers have the true heart of our nation. Those of you who want to ‘cut and run’ are just a cancer on our society.

Lower expectations? I don't see it that way. I see it as slower progress than desired. That has been obvious for some time now hasn't it.

As long as there is progress and hope. Us true Americans will support the efforts. The rest of you can suck each other off.

[ggoose25]

o rly?

[ChumpDumper]

Fuck you, you piece of shit.

I can't stand it when some asshole calls himself a true American because he happens to not question a policy of the present government.

Fuck you. With all the antennas from your farm.

[Wild Cobra]

Fuck you, you piece of shit.

I can't stand it when some asshole calls himself a true American because he happens to not question a policy of the present government.

Fuck you. With all the antennas from your farm.
I have questioned several policies. You obviously are so biased in you views, you cannot see anything but hatred.

[ChumpDumper]

I said "a policy" numbnuts.

And I am biased against assholes like you, because you're an asshole.

[Jamtas#2]

While I think fighting to instill a democracy is a noble idea, I really feel that unless the fight begins with the people themselves, it isn't held in the same regard. This analogy might be a bit of a stretch, but do you think that a child that is handed a great job by their father appreciates the job as much as someone who worked hard to earn the position?

[ggoose25]

For being a "libertarian", WC sure is adamant about telling people whats good for them.

[clambake]

For being a "libertarian", WC sure is adamant about telling people whats good for them.
He gets a hard on when he's listening to other people die for what HE believes in. That's some sacrifice. Sipping coffee from the back of a command center or plowing the back 40 of an antenna farm. Now he applauds bush for making characterizations between Iraq and VN. I think we all know what Bush know's about VN.

how to avoid it.

[ChumpDumper]

The invasion of Iraq was a poor decision executed horribly. The political calendar and the condition of the military will not allow us to stay much longer. It's not even a question of if or when we are going to leave now -- we've put ourselves into a position where we won't be able to control the events in Iraq even if we want to. We're going to start drawing down next spring -- then we just cross our fingers.

[xrayzebra]

They need to be ruled by someone to keep their asses in check because they obviously can't do it, and we can't either.

The real stupidity is not on my part. I'm not the one who advocated going in trying to instill a democracy amongst people who have been at each others throats for 2000 years. They don't want to work together or compromise, both of which are vital to a functioning democracy. Wake the hell up!

Sorry to burst your bubble ray, but democracy isn't for everyone. It's the best form of government, and it works great in the Western world but it doesn't work everywhere. But of course your American hubris is blinding you from seeing that.


People like you also said Japan couldn't have a
democracy. But they do.

Might like to give the Iraqi's a little time. And by
the way, I misspoke. We have a Republic not a
democracy.

I am certainly happy you folks aren't running our country.
Although you support people just like yourself who
know what is best for everyone. Except you.

[xrayzebra]

The invasion of Iraq was a poor decision executed horribly. The political calendar and the condition of the military will not allow us to stay much longer. It's not even a question of if or when we are going to leave now -- we've put ourselves into a position where we won't be able to control the events in Iraq even if we want to. We're going to start drawing down next spring -- then we just cross our fingers.

Get over it Chump. We did invade. And we cannot afford
to leave with our tails stuck between our legs. We will
win, in spit of people like you. We are winning and
even dimm-o-craps are admitting it. And even if the
dimm-o-craptic nominee, Billary, wins she has already
said we cant leave.

[ChumpDumper]

People like you also said Japan couldn't have a
democracy. But they do.Yes, we had over 300,000 troops occupy the home islands we didn't even have to invade.
Might like to give the Iraqi's a little time.You said that four years ago.
I am certainly happy you folks aren't running our country.Yeah, you don't want to go after Osama and the real Al Qaeda. Yo should thank your lucky stars we have leaders who agree with you and have distracted us from that the last four years.

[Wild Cobra]

While I think fighting to instill a democracy is a noble idea, I really feel that unless the fight begins with the people themselves, it isn't held in the same regard. This analogy might be a bit of a stretch, but do you think that a child that is handed a great job by their father appreciates the job as much as someone who worked hard to earn the position?
I agree with that. I’m sure if I were an ignorant lemming, just hearing the main stream media, I would feel this was hopeless too. Over my years, I have learned how they lie, and you to find the truth. I also listen to a wide range of views from both the left and right talk radio.

This is not a lost cause. Only continuing propaganda from the left will lose this war over there. The people are standing up more and more.

Consider this. Those people are scared. Every time they hear the USA may pull out, those who may stand up and fight will continue to hide. Those in real danger are the ones who do stand up. They are more than willing to stand up when they see hope. Take that hope away, and they will do the best they can to stay safe.

What is their biggest fear? That our leftist pundits will win the war of propaganda. If we pull out prematurely, every Iraqi that supported freedom will be rounded up and executed.

You get that you lefties … Your ilk could become responsible for the execution of millions!

[ChumpDumper]

Get over it Chump. We did invade. And we cannot afford
to leave with our tails stuck between our legs.We can't afford to stay either.
We will
win, in spit of people like you.What does that even mean anymore?
We are winningIn what way are we winning right now?
And even if the
dimm-o-craptic nominee, Billary, wins she has already
said we cant leave.There will be some presence in the area, probably in Kudistan after the partition. It would take two or three years to get all our crap out of the country in the best of circumstances anyway -- so yes, we can't leave in that respect.

[ChumpDumper]

I agree with that. I’m sure if I were an ignorant lemming, just hearing the main stream media, I would feel this was hopeless too. Over my years, I have learned how they lie, and you to find the truth. I also listen to a wide range of views from both the left and right talk radio.

This is not a lost cause. Only continuing propaganda from the left will lose this war over there. The people are standing up more and more.What people?

Sunnis?

Shiites?

Kurds?


Consider this. Those people are scared. Every time they hear the USA may pull out, those who may stand up and fight will continue to hide. Those in real danger are the ones who do stand up. They are more than willing to stand up when they see hope. Take that hope away, and they will do the best they can to stay safe.So what will they do when the inevitable draw down begins next spring?


What is their biggest fear? That our leftist pundits will win the war of propaganda. If we pull out prematurely, every Iraqi that supported freedom will be rounded up and executed.Nah, the Sunnis will be rounded up in the Shiite areas and vice-versa if they haven't already left.


You get that you lefties … Your ilk could become responsible for the execution of millions!Yeah, that thinking really motivated us to act in in Rwanda and Darfur, didn't it? If you're going to wear the white hat, you got to wear it all the time.

[xrayzebra]

You get that you lefties … Your ilk could become responsible for the execution of millions!

Not according to the Noted Viet Nam veteran
John Kerry, who you remember was wounded four or five
times on his three or four month tour in Viet Nam.

According to him nothing like that occurred just some of
the people were sent to re-education centers and some of
those are doing very well now. Of course he doesn't like
our re-education centers in Cuba or elsewhere. And you
know John Kerry wouldn't lie, now would he?

[ggoose25]

People like you also said Japan couldn't have a
democracy. But they do.

Might like to give the Iraqi's a little time. And by
the way, I misspoke. We have a Republic not a
democracy.

I am certainly happy you folks aren't running our country.
Although you support people just like yourself who
know what is best for everyone. Except you.

Oh that right. Japan had an insurgency made up of religious zealots ready to kill us and each other. I forgot.

I'm sure the emperor staying in place and asking his people to "bear the unbearable" had no effect either. Where is that kind of leadership from Maliki?

[Jamtas#2]

I agree with that. I’m sure if I were an ignorant lemming, just hearing the main stream media, I would feel this was hopeless too. Over my years, I have learned how they lie, and you to find the truth. I also listen to a wide range of views from both the left and right talk radio.

This is not a lost cause. Only continuing propaganda from the left will lose this war over there. The people are standing up more and more.

Consider this. Those people are scared. Every time they hear the USA may pull out, those who may stand up and fight will continue to hide. Those in real danger are the ones who do stand up. They are more than willing to stand up when they see hope. Take that hope away, and they will do the best they can to stay safe.

What is their biggest fear? That our leftist pundits will win the war of propaganda. If we pull out prematurely, every Iraqi that supported freedom will be rounded up and executed.

You get that you lefties … Your ilk could become responsible for the execution of millions!

I'm not sure if you were calling me a leftie... if so then I'd like to know where that is coming from.
My brother served in Iraq for several years. I'm quite aware what it is really like over there from my conversations with him. He is very against how it is portrayed in the media and gets very upset with the talk of activists who only believe stories that fit the viewpoint they already have. While there he never felt like the Iraqis didn't want him or other soldiers around.
My viewpoint has nothing to do with saying we should crawl out and abandon our efforts. I'm just saying that democracy will not be taken in as quickly or embraced as much by those who have it handed to them. Our own country is proof of that. The amount of political apathy we have nowadays is (in my opinion) a direct result in the fact that we are so comfortable with our way of life that we take our democracy for granted. Our voter turnout should be evident of that.

[ggoose25]

The execution of millions is on George W. Bush's head, and everyone that voted for him.

His incompetence has cost innumerable American and Iraqi lives.

His over stretching of the military will cost us even more American lives the next time a terrorist attacks.

[ggoose25]

We need more posters like Jamtas. Good call.

[Wild Cobra]

You get that you lefties … Your ilk could become responsible for the execution of millions!
Yeah, that thinking really motivated us to act in in Rwanda and Darfur, didn't it? If you're going to wear the white hat, you got to wear it all the time.
Yep, like I said, you lefties...

Both these incident that lead to genocide had us in play with those governments while Clinton was Commander in Chief. We went in, and left.

As I recall, we didn't really have much to do with Rwanda, but in Darfur, president Clinton totally failed in our attempts.

Battle of Mogadishu (1993) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mogadishu_%281993%29):


The Battle of Mogadishu led to a profound shift in American foreign policy, as the Clinton administration became increasingly reluctant to use military intervention in Third World conflicts (such as the massacre of an estimated 800,000 to 1,071,000 ethnic Tutsis and moderate Hutus by Hutu militia groups in Rwanda in 1994), and affected America's actions in the Balkans during the later half of the 1990s. President Clinton preferred to use the "air power alone" tactic and hesitated to use U.S. ground troops in fighting the Bosnian Serb Army in Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1995 and the Yugoslav Army in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (specifically, the province of Kosovo) in 1999, out of fear of losing American soldiers in combat, as well as fear of repeating what happened in Mogadishu in 1993.

Need I say more?

[ChumpDumper]

but in Darfur, president Clinton totally failed in our attempts.

Battle of Mogadishu (1993):Darfur started in 2003 and is still going on, dipshit.

Nothing like a blatant lie to bolster your "nonpartisan" argument, you sack of shit.

Either that or you are too stupid to find it on a map.

Need I say more?

[clambake]

Yep, like I said, you lefties...Need I say more?

Yes, you need to say more you neocon hack. Always falling back on clinton is a sure sign of defeatism. We don't blame reagan for pulling out of lebenon. You see, he was the last of intelligence representing the republican party. I guess now you'd blame carter for that?

[ChumpDumper]

:drunk

[ggoose25]

WC's schtick is getting really old. He tries to come off as a non partisan libertarian, but all he does is defend the neocons. At least ray doesn't try to mask his opinions as unbiased.

[ChumpDumper]

Yep, like I said, you lefties...

Both these incident that lead to genocide had us in play with those governments while Clinton was Commander in Chief. We went in, and left.

As I recall, we didn't really have much to do with Rwanda, but in Darfur, president Clinton totally failed in our attempts.

Battle of Mogadishu (1993) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mogadishu_%281993%29):


The Battle of Mogadishu led to a profound shift in American foreign policy, as the Clinton administration became increasingly reluctant to use military intervention in Third World conflicts (such as the massacre of an estimated 800,000 to 1,071,000 ethnic Tutsis and moderate Hutus by Hutu militia groups in Rwanda in 1994), and affected America's actions in the Balkans during the later half of the 1990s. President Clinton preferred to use the "air power alone" tactic and hesitated to use U.S. ground troops in fighting the Bosnian Serb Army in Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1995 and the Yugoslav Army in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia (specifically, the province of Kosovo) in 1999, out of fear of losing American soldiers in combat, as well as fear of repeating what happened in Mogadishu in 1993.

Need I say more?Quoted for posterity. I'm sure he's going to edit it.

[clambake]

Quoted for posterity. I'm sure he's going to edit it.
I doubt it. He knows who to blame for mistakes.


Chump is a cut and run lemming (lemming is one of my favorite words)

[ChumpDumper]

Clinton made him think Darfur is in Ethiopia!


And he made me think Mogadishu is in Ethiopia too!

Damn him!

[ggoose25]

:lol

[ggoose25]

He says we like to bash Bush! He makes stuff up just to bash Clinton :rollin

The hypocrisy is unreal

[ChumpDumper]

Is this the kind of guy we want farming our antennas?

[Wild Cobra]

I'm not sure if you were calling me a leftie... if so then I'd like to know where that is coming from.

I wasn't calling you a lefty, but expanding on my agreement with you.

[clambake]

Is this the kind of guy we want farming our antennas?
Now that was fucking hilarious. Have you seen that dumbass picture he posted? He's certainly proud of that place. How many rolls of tin foil does it take to get reception on one of those farms?

[Wild Cobra]

Quoted for posterity. I'm sure he's going to edit it.
Yea right. I'm happy with what I said, unless I made a spelling error or mistatement. Re-reading it, I have no plans to change it. Why would you think so? The only time I have made major changes to a posting was immediately after posting a major mistake. Not after time went by without explaining in the comments what the change was.

[ChumpDumper]

Yea right. I'm happy with what I said, unless I made a spelling error or mistatement. Re-reading it, I have no plans to change it. Why would you think so? The only time I have made major changes to a posting was immediately after posting a major mistake. Not after time went by without explaining in the comments what the change was.:lmao :lmao :lmao

Thanks.

You made my day, dumbass.

[ChumpDumper]

Re-reading it, I have no plans to change it. Why would you think so? The only time I have made major changes to a posting was immediately after posting a major mistake.This goes some way to explain why you think no "major mistakes" were made in Iraq.

[ChumpDumper]

I mean Azerbaijan.

[ChumpDumper]

We don't blame reagan for pulling out of lebenon.You mean Bulgaria.

[Wild Cobra]

Clinton made him think Darfur is in Ethiopia!


And he made me think Mogadishu is in Ethiopia too!

Damn him!
Ha Ha... So I made a mistake.

Glad I could amuse you all. Bask in your glory, I don't make very many like that.

I never really followed the Darfur incident. I heard horrors about it and other places, but didn't take time for it as we have not really been involved these last several years. Time for me to brush up on geography.

[clambake]

You mean Bulgaria.
:lmao

[ChumpDumper]

I never really followed the Darfur incident.No shit.

Yet you can post authoritatively that it was all Clinton's fault though it happened two years after he left office.

And review said post after being shown it was in error and claim nothing was wrong.

[clambake]

Ha Ha... So I made a mistake.

Glad I could amuse you all. Bask in your glory, I don't make very many like that.

I never really followed the Darfur incident. I heard horrors about it and other places, but didn't take time for it as we have not really been involved these last several years. Time for me to brush up on geography.
This year the government paid me $20,000 not to farm antennas.

[ggoose25]

For someone who loves to call people lemmings that follow propaganda and don't do the "real research"..... wow

[clambake]

I never really followed the Darfur incident. I heard horrors about it and other places, but didn't take time for it as we have not really been involved these last several years.
You mean you didn't hear about any of the good things? It's people like you that will cause it's defeat.

[ChumpDumper]

Wild Cobra has further lowered the expectations of neocon discourse in this forum.

[Wild Cobra]

Now that was fucking hilarious. Have you seen that dumbass picture he posted? He's certainly proud of that place. How many rolls of tin foil does it take to get reception on one of those farms?
Whatever. Hold a roll of tin foil anywhere near one of the antennas when the transmitter is keys, you might feel it! Hold a flourescent tube too close to one, it'll light up! Near? Too close? Never tried it, but probably within the width of a football field.

Notice that I used a huge RLP? (rotatable log periodic) You don't find those very many places, and the rest of the antenna types just don't show up on google resolution satellte. The best I found of another antenna was the shadow it cast from the 105 ft. tower.

Make all the fun you want. It just really shows your ignorance to the subject matter. I enjoy the laugh.

FYI, from United States Antenna Products, LLC (http://www.usantennaproducts.com/antenna_lineup.html):


AS-3515/GRC
5985-00-121-4334
3.0 - 30.0 MHz 25 kW CW/50 kW PEP The Model 5000 antenna system consists of one Model LP-1005 antenna array, one Model T-3002 100 foot (30.48 meters) dual tower and rotating mast assembly, and a Model R-3503 rotator.

1005-CA
Part of AS-3515/GRC
5985-01-121-4334
3.0 - 30.0 MHz 25 kW CW/50 kW PEP 19 element rotatable log periodic. The Model LP-1005-CA is the only log periodic of its kind, with unprecedented transmit capability over the full 3 through 30 MHz bandwidth and a 2 through 30 MHz receive capability. Previously this could only be achieved with a large rhombic or wire log antennas requiring several acres for installation.

[xrayzebra]

Wild Cobra has further lowered the expectations of neocon discourse in this forum.

Oh, well we still have your brilliance to carry us through the
day. You know like all the name calling. And so original
on top of that.

And on top of that people like you, Pelosi, Reed, Kennedy
and Kerry have more blood on your hands from the aid
and comfort you give to the enemy than George Bush
will ever have. AQ even quotes our most wonderful
Dimm-o-craps in their little web broadcast.

[boutons_]

The Repug political operatves in Iraq still have "lofty" goals? Goals of lofty profits of US/UK oilcos?

Going back to one of dubya's bumper-sticker-deep slogans, Iraq ain't standing up.
Iraq is supine and very probably will never be united again.

How many more $Ts and 10s of 1000s of US casualties before dubya will stand down?

No matter how successful is the surge, Iraq is broken and divided in dozens of ways.

It's so transparent what the WH is doing. Screw around militarily until 20 Jan 2009 and keep saying "we are winning", then start swift-boating the next administration for losing Iraq.

[Wild Cobra]

Wild Cobra has further lowered the expectations of neocon discourse in this forum.
Haven't you noticed I don't use the term neocon regularly, or agree with neocon policies?

[ChumpDumper]

Haven't you noticed I don't use the term neocon regularly, or agree with neocon policies?You agree on the one that counts.

[Wild Cobra]

This year the government paid me $20,000 not to farm antennas.
Really? They paid me $28,315.98 in 1992!

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x262/Wild_Cobra/DD-214-mod.jpg

[ChumpDumper]

Oh, well we still have your brilliance to carry us through the
day. You know like all the name calling. And so original on top of that.Kettle.


And on top of that people like you, Pelosi, Reed, Kennedy
and Kerry have more blood on your hands from the aid
and comfort you give to the enemy than George Bush
will ever have. AQ even quotes our most wonderful
Dimm-o-craps in their little web broadcast.Wake me when they quote SpursTalk, m'kay?

[ChumpDumper]

And yes, x, yours is exactly the type of bullshit demagoguery (look it up) that our time and geographically challenged, non-neocon neocon tried to pull earlier -- and yes, it deserves a good name-calling.

Dick.

[Wild Cobra]

And on top of that people like you, Pelosi, Reed, Kennedy
and Kerry have more blood on your hands from the aid
and comfort you give to the enemy than George Bush
will ever have. AQ even quotes our most wonderful
Dimm-o-craps in their little web broadcast.
How true. I just wish these traitors would be brought to justice.

[ChumpDumper]

So you're saying Bush is incompetent in his prosecution of traitors.

[ChumpDumper]

The funniest thing is, none of you are serious about this traitor talk. Not enough to do anything about it.

Just like the Bush administration didn't take Iraq seriously enough to send enough troops to secure the country or even plan for anything but the rosiest post-invasion scenario.

[Wild Cobra]

The funniest thing is, none of you are serious about this traitor talk. Not enough to do anything about it.
I take that viewpoint serious. I just know it wouldn't do any good to try to prosecute such a thing.


Just like the Bush administration didn't take Iraq seriously enough to send enough troops to secure the country or even plan for anything but the rosiest post-invasion scenario.
To a point, I agree with that. There are several problems with increasing the tropp levels to such a degree. It would be really hard to make happen with the defeatist attitudes flying around now, especially since the democrats control the spending authorizations now.

[ChumpDumper]

I take that viewpoint serious.You don't at all. You're full of shit. It's just one of the buzzwords people like to throw around to put opponents on the defensive and avoid real discussion.
To a point, I agree with that. There are several problems with increasing the tropp levels to such a degree.The time to increase troop levels was 2001-2003.
It would be really hard to make happen with the defeatist attitudes flying around now, especially since the democrats control the spending authorizations now.Sorry, the Republican president signed off on a stupid war plan that cut the initial troop level by almost two-thirds.

His fault.

And considering he was selling it as the war to ensure the very preservation of the USA, not serious.

[Wild Cobra]

You don't at all. You're full of shit.
Wow, you aren't stupid enough that you think you know my thought process better than I, are you?


It's just one of the buzzwords people like to throw around to put opponents on the defensive and avoid real discussion.
No, it has been well discussed in circles how their defeatest attitude is emboldening the enemy. Do you deny that happens?


The time to increase troop levels was 2001-2003.Sorry, the Republican president signed off on a stupid war plan that cut the initial troop level by almost two-thirds.

His fault.
With hindsight being 20/20, I will agree with that assessment. How accurate is your crystal ball? Mine doesn't work as well as I would like it to.


And considering he was selling it as the war to ensure the very preservation of the USA, not serious.
Yes, with a series of vialble possiblilities. Funny how he used intelligence gathered during the Clinton administaration and everyone want to blame him for it. How many democrats voted for the war authorization? This was a team effort. Don't stop you blame at president Bush. What about yesterday's new 19 page report blaming the intelligence communities, especially under George Tenant, for 9/11? Shows just how reliable the intelligence was. Maybe we shouldn't have gone in. Still, now that we are there, we have a job to finish rather than tucking tail.

[ChumpDumper]

Wow, you aren't stupid enough that you think you know my thought process better than I, are you?I know you are full of shit. It's not rocket science.



No, it has been well discussed in circles how their defeatest attitude is emboldening the enemy. Do you deny that happens?I don't think they needed any emboldening, truly. And I think this war and the mistakes made in it did more to embolden the enemy and create more enemies than freaking Nancy Pelosi ever could.



With hindsight being 20/20, I will agree with that assessment. How accurate is your crystal ball? Mine doesn't work as well as I would like it to.It was pretty damn accurate, since I said it wasn't enough all along. You dumbasses should've listened to Shinseki when you had the chance. It's not like Op Plan 1003 was a complete secret back in 2001 when Rumsfeld decided to gut it to showcase his pet theory.



Yes, with a series of vialble possiblilities. Funny how he used intelligence gathered during the Clinton administaration and everyone want to blame him for it.You are trying to blame Clinton for forcing Bush to invade Iraq. :lol


How many democrats voted for the war authorization? This was a team effort. No shit. The Democrats were cowards and congress shirked their responsibilities.


Don't stop you blame at president Bush.He bears the most responsibility. He is the president. The buck stops with him.


What about yesterday's new 19 page report blaming the intelligence communities, especially under George Tenant, for 9/11?Didn't matter what Tenet did or said after Rumsfeld formed his own intel apparatus under Doug Feith that told him whatever he wanted to hear.


Shows just how reliable the intelligence was. And how poor Bush's judgment was.


Maybe we shouldn't have gone in. Still, now that we are there, we have a job to finish rather than tucking tail.Nope. We're on our way out no matter what. The 2008 election will be won by whoever has the most attractive exit strategy.

If we were really serious about transforming, our actions should have reflected it.

[Holt's Cat]

Bush is the 21st century Clinton, no doubt.

[Jamtas#2]

I wasn't calling you a lefty, but expanding on my agreement with you.

Ok, thanks for clarifying. I was interpreting it in a different way.

[Jamtas#2]

As far as the emboldening the enemy... well it could be giving them pleasure to see Americans disagreeing with each other, but that is nothing unique to this time. I'm sure our enemies were having laughing fits when we were focusing our national time, money and energy to get to the truth if our president received a BJ and lied about it. I'm sure the Republicans who are so up in arms over the dems who oppose the current war won't be undermining or speaking out against Hillary should she (*shudder*) win the presidency. We don't live in the type of society that everyone will agree or keep quiet. Its not our way, (and especially not our politicians' way).
But by not being fully prepared for the war and thus running it very ineptly for years, the administration doesn't get to just tell everyone to believe them or else they are aiding the enemy. It is your every right to express that opinion, but our leaders need to be more responsible with their words.

[Wild Cobra]

As far as the emboldening the enemy... well it could be giving them pleasure to see Americans disagreeing with each other, but that is nothing unique to this time.
It does. My understanding is they show video clips of Pelosi, Murtha, and the likes on their web sites. Great propaganda coming from the mouths of US government personnel. Treasonous if you ask me.


I'm sure our enemies were having laughing fits when we were focusing our national time, money and energy to get to the truth if our president received a BJ and lied about it.
Maybe, I didn't follow the personal aspect of that era. Keep in mind that the situation started with a rightful lawsuit.


I'm sure the Republicans who are so up in arms over the dems who oppose the current war won't be undermining or speaking out against Hillary should she (*shudder*) win the presidency.
They probably will. I seriously doubt they will do it in a manner that aids and comforts the enemy, or demoralizes the troops.


We don't live in the type of society that everyone will agree or keep quiet. Its not our way, (and especially not our politicians' way).
Very true. What about nominal time, place, manner considerations? The vocal democrats are demoralizing our troops. This is not acceptable. Period.


But by not being fully prepared for the war and thus running it very ineptly for years, the administration doesn't get to just tell everyone to believe them or else they are aiding the enemy. It is your every right to express that opinion, but our leaders need to be more responsible with their words.
I don't know about inept. Things could and should have been done differently. Of the various viewpoints, president Bush picked a plan. I don't expect perfection in anyone. I do expect honesty and integrity. I see far more of that from the right than I do the left. Responsibility (lack of) is what infuriates me about the democrats. They only seem to care about their party first, screw the troops morale.

[ChumpDumper]

It does. My understanding is they show video clips of Pelosi, Murtha, and the likes on their web sites. Great propaganda coming from the mouths of US government personnel. Treasonous if you ask me.They probably use video clips of Bush calling the war on terra a crusade too. You want to string him up?



Maybe, I didn't follow the personal aspect of that era. Keep in mind that the situation started with a rightful lawsuit.Keep in mind that $50 million was spent for nothing.



They probably will. I seriously doubt they will do it in a manner that aids and comforts the enemy, or demoralizes the troops.I know you say you were in the military, but I just don't see the men and women of the armed forces being such pussies that they would be demoralized by politicians they apparently hate and that want to get them out of a war zone.



Very true. What about nominal time, place, manner considerations? The vocal democrats are demoralizing our troops. This is not acceptable. Period.I have a higher opinion of the will of the people in the military than you.



I don't know about inept. Things could and should have been done differently. Of the various viewpoints, president Bush picked a plan. I don't expect perfection in anyone. I do expect honesty and integrity. I see far more of that from the right than I do the left. Responsibility (lack of) is what infuriates me about the democrats. They only seem to care about their party first, screw the troops morale.I saw terrible incompetence from the president and his appointees in planning the war, the CPA officials who had no experience and/or no idea what they were doing, and from some officers who ignored the lessons of counterinsurgency learned in Vietnam. Now we have a decent commander in the theater and a competent SecDef, but there is too much the president, Rummy and and the "bad" generals did that can't be undone.

[Oh, Gee!!]

WASHINGTON (AP) - The Iraqi government will become more precarious over the next six to 12 months and its security forces have not improved enough to operate without outside help, intelligence analysts conclude in a new National Intelligence Estimate released Friday.
Despite uneven improvements, the analysts concluded that the level of overall violence is high, Iraq's sectarian groups remain unreconciled, and al-Qaida in Iraq is still able to conduct its highly visible attacks.

"Iraqi political leaders remain unable to govern effectively," the 10- page document concludes. A copy was obtained by The Associated Press in advance of its release Thursday
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8R6QKD00&show_article=1

[George Gervin's Afro]

Oh, well we still have your brilliance to carry us through the
day. You know like all the name calling. And so original
on top of that.

And on top of that people like you, Pelosi, Reed, Kennedy
and Kerry have more blood on your hands from the aid
and comfort you give to the enemy than George Bush
will ever have. AQ even quotes our most wonderful
Dimm-o-craps in their little web broadcast.


Let's see..Bush whored and ordered the unecessary war... today almost 4,000 killed..and ray blames the dems.. who is the enemy ray? the sunni's? shia?.Al-qaeda? saddam? cookie monster?

[George Gervin's Afro]

It does. My understanding is they show video clips of Pelosi, Murtha, and the likes on their web sites. Great propaganda coming from the mouths of US government personnel. Treasonous if you ask me.


Maybe, I didn't follow the personal aspect of that era. Keep in mind that the situation started with a rightful lawsuit.


They probably will. I seriously doubt they will do it in a manner that aids and comforts the enemy, or demoralizes the troops.


Very true. What about nominal time, place, manner considerations? The vocal democrats are demoralizing our troops. This is not acceptable. Period.


I don't know about inept. Things could and should have been done differently. Of the various viewpoints, president Bush picked a plan. I don't expect perfection in anyone. I do expect honesty and integrity. I see far more of that from the right than I do the left. Responsibility (lack of) is what infuriates me about the democrats. They only seem to care about their party first, screw the troops morale.


so to sum it up dissent aides the enemy.. so now we have the war whores telling us the only way to be patriotic is to keep your mouth shut... got it.

[Oh, Gee!!]

the only way to be patriotic is to keep your mouth shut... got it.

it's kind of a recurring theme amongst the talking heads on the radio and cable news: Singers (dixie chicks) should just sing, actors (tim robbins, sean penn, alec baldwin, etc.) should just act, and nobody should talk about the war except in glowing terms

[medstudent]

Yeah. Even the soldiers fighting the war can't say anything bad about it because they really don't know how it is throughout all of Iraq.

[Oh, Gee!!]

And simply posting on a website devoted to the San Antonio Spurs (of all things) gives aid and comfort. The most simple and effective way to be a "good" American is to turn off your brain and stop moving your lips (or fingers for our purpose).

[George Gervin's Afro]

it's kind of a recurring theme amongst the talking heads on the radio and cable news: Singers (dixie chicks) should just sing, actors (tim robbins, sean penn, alec baldwin, etc.) should just act, and nobody should talk about the war except in glowing terms


So I guess we could asume that the only folks who are allowed to publicly voice their opinions are talk radio hosts..no one else has the right or credibility to do so.. Welcome to America 2007 !

[xrayzebra]

so to sum it up dissent aides the enemy.. so now we have the war whores telling us the only way to be patriotic is to keep your mouth shut... got it.

Our Representatives in both houses voted to go to war.
And yes, dissent in this regard is wrong. You are suppose
to support you country once a decision has been made to
go to war.

The kind of crap that is going on now is what lost the war
in VN. And all AQ has to do is wait until we defeat our
selves with BS like you put out.

You, I suppose support sending troops to Darfur. Why,
no one there has attack us. We have no strategic interest
in that region. But you would probably insist look at
what is happening to the population. Oh, and Saddam
was the perfect ruler who would not only kill his
son-in-laws, but did in fact kill them and hundreds of
thousands more of his people. And we do have an
interest in that region. Like it or not, it is called: OIL!
Also AQ was in Iraq and he did have WMD. You with
you dumb argument will say AQ wasn't there and I
ask why weren't they. They are all over world, including
the U.S. And you say where is the WMD. I say, yes,
where is the WMD. He had it, we know, because he
used it, many times. What happen to it? That is
the question.

And yes I say you are un-patriotic. And make dumb
statements when you don't support your country in
trying to defeat someone we are at war with.

[Oh, Gee!!]

dissent is bad
OIL!
You are suppose to support you country
OIL!
The kind of hippy crap that lost the war in VN.
OIL!
AQ in Iraq
OIL!
WMD
OIL!
un-patriotic.
OIL!

[medstudent]

I think ray just eats the party line... hook and all

[George Gervin's Afro]

Our Representatives in both houses voted to go to war.
And yes, dissent in this regard is wrong. You are suppose
to support you country once a decision has been made to
go to war.

The kind of crap that is going on now is what lost the war
in VN. And all AQ has to do is wait until we defeat our
selves with BS like you put out.

You, I suppose support sending troops to Darfur. Why,
no one there has attack us. We have no strategic interest
in that region. But you would probably insist look at
what is happening to the population. Oh, and Saddam
was the perfect ruler who would not only kill his
son-in-laws, but did in fact kill them and hundreds of
thousands more of his people. And we do have an
interest in that region. Like it or not, it is called: OIL!
Also AQ was in Iraq and he did have WMD. You with
you dumb argument will say AQ wasn't there and I
ask why weren't they. They are all over world, including
the U.S. And you say where is the WMD. I say, yes,
where is the WMD. He had it, we know, because he
used it, many times. What happen to it? That is
the question.

And yes I say you are un-patriotic. And make dumb
statements when you don't support your country in
trying to defeat someone we are at war with.


ok ray your entitled to your opnion.. your boy bush is STILL trying to justify this liberation experiment gone wild.. Seems to me that when you start wars their justification should be clear... what a nice little nazi you've become ray..from where i stand you have just told me that when the actions starts i should just shut up and blindly follow George 'Custar' Bush into little big horn...

[DarkReign]

I have yet to agree with WC, Ray or Yoni, but is it really fucking necessary to wage personal attacks?

What kind of third-grade bullshit forum is this?

I dont give a shit what WC or any of you people do for a living, I forst and foremost commend you all for not being drains on society and taking the time and effort to form ONE opinion, which most Americans lack in any and all number of threads in this section.

Hes an antennae farmer? First, I dont know what that is or even means. Second, why the fuck does it matter? Third, why the fuck would you try and use that against him in some way like he should be ashamed, you elitist pricks?

Hes a man with an opinion, an opinion completely opposite of mine, but a man nonetheless. Fucking act like adults.

I bet two to one that if we all met face-to-face, we would come away with completely different methods of arguing with one another in the post-meeting becauseit would humanize us. Unless youre an ignorant shit with no integrity or decency, then I dont give a shit what you did or what you say.

Most of you are excellent at attacking someones argument, sometimes in a crass way or whatever, but at least you have a point and counterpoint between "asshole, dimmocrap, Repugs, etc".

Attacking someones livelihood is the lowest of low and I am surprised that some would stopp to such a level.

/rant

[ChumpDumper]

You, I suppose support sending troops to Darfur. Why,
no one there has attack us.Neither did Iraq.

We have no strategic interest
in that region.

Sudan is China's largest overseas oil project. China is Sudan's largest supplier of arms, according to a former Sudan government minister. Chinese-made tanks, fighter planes, bombers, helicopters, machine guns and rocket-propelled grenades have intensified Sudan's two-decade-old north-south civil war.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21143-2004Dec22.html

Oil, Chinese arms and murderous militant Islamists who are actively slaughtering non-muslims and let Osama live there for five years -- no strategic interest at all, eh? You really aren't very smart. Can you find it on a map? Wild Cobra can't.


Also AQ was in Iraq and he did have WMD.AQ is a person now?

Where are "his" WMD? Show them to me. Rummy said right where they were. Why was he so wrong?


You with
you dumb argument will say AQ wasn't there and I
ask why weren't they. They are all over world, including
the U.S.And Sudan, right? That's in the world.


And you say where is the WMD. I say, yes,
where is the WMD. He had it, we know, because he
used it, many times. What happen to it? That is
the question.He destroyed them.

[medstudent]

they started it :baby

[Oh, Gee!!]

I have yet to agree with WC, Ray or Yoni, but is it really fucking necessary to wage personal attacks?

What kind of third-grade bullshit forum is this?

I dont give a shit what WC or any of you people do for a living, I forst and foremost commend you all for not being drains on society and taking the time and effort to form ONE opinion, which most Americans lack in any and all number of threads in this section.

Hes an antennae farmer? First, I dont know what that is or even means. Second, why the fuck does it matter? Third, why the fuck would you try and use that against him in some way like he should be ashamed, you elitist pricks?

Hes a man with an opinion, an opinion completely opposite of mine, but a man nonetheless. Fucking act like adults.

I bet two to one that if we all met face-to-face, we would come away with completely different methods of arguing with one another in the post-meeting becauseit would humanize us. Unless youre an ignorant shit with no integrity or decency, then I dont give a shit what you did or what you say.

Most of you are excellent at attacking someones argument, sometimes in a crass way or whatever, but at least you have a point and counterpoint between "asshole, dimmocrap, Repugs, etc".

Attacking someones livelihood is the lowest of low and I am surprised that some would stopp to such a level.

/rant

you've gotten soft lately.

[ChumpDumper]

I have yet to agree with WC, Ray or Yoni, but is it really fucking necessary to wage personal attacks?When he pulls the "true American" and treason cards, you bet it's necessary. I consider talk like that a personal attack on me and I will respond in kind.

Follow it up with a completely ignorant take on Darfur and a refusal to even find out what was so egregiously wrong with it when it's pointed out to him -- that's open season for ridicule.

[DarkReign]

I don't know about inept. Things could and should have been done differently. Of the various viewpoints, president Bush picked a plan. I don't expect perfection in anyone. I do expect honesty and integrity. I see far more of that from the right than I do the left. Responsibility (lack of) is what infuriates me about the democrats. They only seem to care about their party first, screw the troops morale.

Absolutely disagree. Iraq and its inception, execution and occupation could be labeled as nothing more than inept. There are far worse words to describe what Iraq is accurately.

The whole thing stinks. Just like Vietnam, Iraq was never meant to be won, its meant to be sustained so the military contractors continue their raping of our federal budget. Only the government has become more adaptable to the situation full-well knowing that 1000s of Americans coming home in body-bags isnt very good PR.

So they hire out the work to mercenaries and the locals who have no damn work. They die everyday, 100s probably every week. But they arent American, so they arent counted. You would say they are the ones "standing up", when in actuality they are an arm of the American governement in its endeavor to prolong the single most profitable venture in the investment world.

I dont expect you to agree with me. Nor would I ever. You call people lemmings with regularity and truly believe your government has all of these great intentions for the world. Which is complete and utter lemming bullshit.

It doesnt matter if this were Bush or Clinton, they are puppets. Puppets on very, very short strings. They are the "face-men" of an otherwise corrupt government with no desire for anything but a) control and b) money (which go hand in hand).

Shortly after Kennedy made a very short and sweet statement that there was in fact, a handful of powerful individuals who controlled most aspects of our governement and governments around the world, and made known his intentions to leave Vietnam, he was executed.

Has any president since dared to tell the truth since? Hell no! Why would they? Theyre apart of the same gravy train thats been rolling for 4 decades, benefitting from the same people that all federal politicians do on varying scales.

And its people like you who fail to recognize these truths and cast doubt upon the messenger(s). Iraq is not a winnable situation because it was never meant to be. Politically, Bush Co. is weighing only one important decision, "How long can we stay until they revolt?" If casualties are the barometer for tolerance, we're there until 2015, maybe beyond all in the hope of stabilizing a region that wasnt stable to begin with.

Its a God-complex that needs to stop. And it stops HERE, not there.

[DarkReign]

you've gotten soft lately.

This is true. I used to enjoy teenage banter, but I lost that somewhere between graduation of high school and marriage.

[DarkReign]

When he pulls the "true American" and treason cards, you bet it's necessary. I consider talk like that a personal attack on me and I will respond in kind.

Well, that I wont argue with. And nor was I trying to moderate, I was only stating a my opinion.

But you do willingly post in a political forum. A political forum, by its definition, is going to involve our government. And you'll always have loyalists and dissenters.

Therefore, your patriotism and your sensitivies to it being in question should have been checked at the door, IMO.

EDITED: changed "point" to "my opinion"

[DarkReign]

they started it :baby

:lmao

[Oh, Gee!!]

This is true. I used to enjoy teenage banter, but I lost that somewhere between graduation of high school and marriage.

now who is the one insulting?

[ChumpDumper]

Well, that I wont argue with. And nor was I trying to moderate, I was only stating a my opinion.

But you do willingly post in a political forum. A political forum, by its definition, is going to involve our government. And you'll always have loyalists and dissenters.

Therefore, your patriotism and your sensitivies to it being in question should have been checked at the door, IMO.

EDITED: changed "point" to "my opinion"Absolutely not. I refuse to let anyone tell me what I think of this country and anyone trying to do so is going to get their shit shoved back down their throats. They should check their stupid, faux-argument canards at the door and stick to the topic. If they don't, fuck 'em.

[DarkReign]

now who is the one insulting?

You sensitive prick.

[DarkReign]

Absolutely not. I refuse to let anyone tell me what I think of this country and anyone trying to do so is going to get their shit shoved back down their throats. They should check their stupid, faux-argument canards at the door and stick to the topic. If they don't, fuck 'em.

You take your patriotism so seriously that someone questioning it in a political forum infuriates you to such a level that you cant bear to remove your inclinations to personally attack them?

You always seemed so much more creative.

[Oh, Gee!!]

You sensitive prick.


you see? you're not above the fray after all.

[DarkReign]

you see? you're not above the fray after all.

Never claimed to be.

[ChumpDumper]

You take your patriotism so seriously that someone questioning it in a political forum infuriates you to such a level that you cant bear to remove your inclinations to personally attack them?Yep. It's one of the few things that really pisses me off -- and that kind of bullshit has been pulled by the neocons far too long.


You always seemed so much more creative.I can be very creative with my insults.

[DarkReign]

Yep. It's one of the few things that really pisses me off.

Serious question...

Why so sensitive about it? I dont think I go a week without someone calling me an inept asshole with no moral soul, but I sleep good. Maybe its my lack of conscience.

[DarkReign]

I can be very creative with my insults.

Pleeeeease, dont play grade-school. I meant creative as the word was intended, not how it was perverted.

[ChumpDumper]

Serious question...

Why so sensitive about it? I dont think I go a week without someone calling me an inept asshole with no moral soul, but I sleep good. Maybe its my lack of conscience.Maybe you just hate America.

[ChumpDumper]

Pleeeeease, dont play grade-school. I meant creative as the word was intended, not how it was perverted.I have to wonder why you are so sensitive about my lack of civility.

[ChumpDumper]

Had to bring this up one more time.


You, I suppose support sending troops to Darfur. Why,
no one there has attack us. We have no strategic interest
in that region.


State Sponsors of Terrorism

Countries determined by the Secretary of State to have repeatedly provided support for acts of international terrorism are designated pursuant to three laws: section 6(j) of the Export Administration Act, section 40 of the Arms Export Control Act, and section 620A of the Foreign Assistance Act. Taken together, the four main categories of sanctions resulting from designation under these authorities include restrictions on U.S. foreign assistance; a ban on defense exports and sales; certain controls over exports of dual use items; and miscellaneous financial and other restrictions.

Designation under the above-referenced authorities also implicates other sanctions laws that penalize persons and countries engaging in certain trade with state sponsors. Currently there are five countries designated under these authorities: Cuba, Iran, North Korea, Sudan and Syria.

http://www.state.gov/s/ct/c14151.htm

Why do you hate the US Department of State, xray?

[clambake]

Jesus DR, the guy tries to use his experience on some dumbass antennae farm as the barometer of what's right and wrong, and labeling anyone who disagrees as a traitor. Fuck him.

Then he blames clinton for cutting the funding that eliminated his position. Maybe it was time to replace those dumbass antennas with a dish.

Anyway, it's too bad his antennas aren't connected to anything.

[ChumpDumper]

WC used his experience working at a communication relay station in Europe 16 years ago to provide proof Saddam had WMDs in 2003.

Sounds silly, you say?

Yes, it does.

[xrayzebra]

When he pulls the "true American" and treason cards, you bet it's necessary. I consider talk like that a personal attack on me and I will respond in kind.

Follow it up with a completely ignorant take on Darfur and a refusal to even find out what was so egregiously wrong with it when it's pointed out to him -- that's open season for ridicule.

You don't like being called what you are. Tough!

[ChumpDumper]

You don't like being called what you are. Tough!I don't need to address someone who so callously disagrees with the government of the United States about countries that sponsor terrorism.

You're a traitor.

[xrayzebra]

Yep. It's one of the few things that really pisses me off -- and that kind of bullshit has been pulled by the neocons far too long.

I can be very creative with my insults.

Why, because we call you out on your wrong point of
view. We wont accept you wrong thinking ways. So
like a good dimm-o-crap you attack the person. Not
the idea. Funny part is you more than likely know you
are wrong, just cant stand that idea. And wrong you are
not to support your country.

[ChumpDumper]

And wrong you are
not to support your country.As are you, traitor.

Tell me, x -- why do you hate America?

[xrayzebra]

I don't need to address someone who so callously disagrees with the government of the United States about countries that sponsor terrorism.

You're a traitor.

What in the world are you talking about. Your dislike for
me and others has completely distorted your thinking
process.

[xrayzebra]

As are you, traitor.

Tell me, x -- why do you hate America?

The world of dan has taken another toll: ChumpDumper
:rolleyes

[ggoose25]

Ray is a traitor cause he refused go after terrorists in Sudan.

[ChumpDumper]

What in the world are you talking about. Your dislike for
me and others has completely distorted your thinking
process.And your refusal to support the US government in its classification of Sudan as having strategic value in the war on terror is clear evidence that you hate America.

[clambake]

What in the world are you talking about. Your dislike for
me and others has completely distorted your thinking
process.
Yeah, what happened to the good'ol days when you could go to a brothel in the Middle East and assualt women being held as sex slaves?

[Oh, Gee!!]

Ray thinks that witches float, but good people sink.

[ggoose25]

Aren't you tough on terror, ray? Maybe we should go after them in Sudan before they get us here. That is unless you secretly want the terrorists to win. Or you don't think the troops can get it done? Why don't you support the troops?

[ChumpDumper]

Ray and Wild Cobra should be rounded up and silenced so we true Americans who know where Sudan is and its importance in the war on terror can post pictures of antennas in peace.

[ggoose25]

They are criticizing one piece of our government's foreign policy. That must mean they really don't love America. Man I'm glad people like that weren't around when we were fighting the Nazis. Lets put them in Guantanamo without charging them with anything for two years.

[xrayzebra]

Have your fun kids. But remember something. This country
has defended, by going to war, humanity more than any other
country in history. We have shed our citizens blood and spent
our money doing it.

We now have another war that folks like you are opposed to.
Can I ask each of you some questions. Why do you want us to lose
in Iraq? Are we not now at war there?

Whether you agree with it or not. Didn't the Congress of the
United States vote to support the President?

Now do you question those in the Congress that now claim to
be against this war, why are the now opposed to it?

Do you find it strange that the are in the opposing party.

Do you find it strange that the same ones opposing our
country, and they are opposing our country when they want
us to lose a war, are the same ones who said the President
stole the vote in Florida. Especially when we know that isn't
true. The MSM even concedes that point.

I have nothing else to add to this thread. You can attack and
make fun of me all you desire. You will not hurt my feelings.
I have done my service to my country and family and
have contributed to the fact that we can have this conversation
we are engaged in at this time. Some of you may have done
the same. And for that I applaud you.

Most of you seem unaware that we are fighting this war
against terrorist all over the world. Iraq is simply only one
faucet of it. The other parts of the world are mostly
invisible to most. But it is claiming our troops lives and
our money. So by your reasoning we should pull out of
those conflicts. But thankfully you don't make those decisions.


But I find some of the comments made by those opposed to my
view simply ridiculous.

So continue without me. I would like to see some of the
answer to my questions. But will not respond to any of
of your responses.

[clambake]

bye

[Oh, Gee!!]

ooops, we broke Xray.

[ChumpDumper]

You, I suppose support sending troops to Darfur. Why,
no one there has attack us. We have no strategic interest
in that region.
http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1922320&postcount=84


Continued focus was placed on Sudan for its role in contributing fighters for the Iraqi insurgency. Sudanese and foreign nationals who transited Sudan have been captured as foreign fighters in Iraq.
http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/crt/2005/64337.htm

Ray has given aid and comfort to our enemies with his statements. He obviously wants us to lose in Iraq. He should put on a burka and move to Sudan because he hates America.

[ggoose25]

We were just trying to point out the ridiculousness of your accusations on liberals using your own ridiculous reasoning.

I'd much rather have you post things like the above. Something from the heart, something worth reading, other than the same old tired false rhetoric that you hear from from Drudge or Rush or O'Reilly.

Nobody wants the terrorists to win, ray. NOBODY. We are all fighting to win, and we are just trying to find the best way out of a bad situation. We do not have unlimited resources. We do not have all the time in the world to be stuck in Iraq. Simply wanting people to support the troops by shutting up is not supporting them, its killing them. Asking questions in a time of war is a necessity, not a treasonous act.

Look at Chump. Do you think he would've gotten as riled up as he did if he didn't love this country just as much as you?

[DarkReign]

I have to wonder why you are so sensitive about my lack of civility.

Its not your lack of it, its your disdain for it.

[ChumpDumper]

I have to wonder why you are so sensitive about my disdain for civility.

[DarkReign]

GG25 hit it on the head. The banter is a vehicle to prove the thinking behind some of the convictions used by this admminstration, an administration you seem to vehemently support without question.

Everyone should be questioned Ray, EVERYONE. Especially our government. About everything. If I were President, I would very mcuh allow the dissenters of my policies a regular voice in my arena, be it in the WH or at a political rally.

I would encourage Americans in general, at every opporutnity, at every level of government (especially local gov) to voice their opinion with logic, reason and civility.

But, that is a just one of numerously other large reasons why I am not president (or hold any public office). What they want is control and a dumb, lazy, complicit public. And they are winning with regularity.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Question everything.

Why?

[DarkReign]

Question everything.

Why?

Huh?

[Oh, Gee!!]

Huh?

Wha?

[xrayzebra]

Huh?

I ask the same question: why?

If you were president why would you want to be questioned.
Your were elected to represent the people. And someone
questioning you doesn't prove anything. Are you going to
be like the Clinton's and consult the pollsters before
making a decision or be like California and put everything
up to a vote. Hell you might just well not have a government.

[ChumpDumper]

So continue without me.

[DarkReign]

If you were president why would you want to be questioned.Your were elected to represent the people. And someone
questioning you doesn't prove anything. Are you going to
be like the Clinton's and consult the pollsters before
making a decision or be like California and put everything
up to a vote. Hell you might just well not have a government.

Say-what-the-fuck?! Are you kidding?!

I would embrace my criticism because I realize not everyone is going to agree with everything I do.

so I could root em out, and keep em away and ignore their existence. Or I could speak with them, address them and at the very least make them feel that I am in fact listening, but I disagree.

Or hell, who knows! Maybe, just maybe, they have a point! Holy shit! I might be wrong. Dear God, I should go cut myself...stupid human, being wrong sometimes.

The Presidency was lost when it failed to be right all the time? Is that the message?

No, its called America. And people suggesting a civil debate with the President on political topics is some sort of counter-productive practice are the same people convinced they are absolutely correct in their world view. Theyre one-step short of tyrants.

[E20]

I can't really judge or blame Bush. This whole story is similar to LBJ's Presidency, both were President during a real tough time with tribulations for the whole nation and both served up what they and their cabinet members thought were best, both recieved decisions from edgy people. In LBJ's case Macnamara and Bush's case Rove and I can't really ask for more, because you can't change the past and their decisions. Probably 50 years in the future most will look back and cut Bush some slack, because of the difficult situation he was put in, like they did LBJ.

[Oh, Gee!!]

LBJ inherited a war while GW invented one out of whole cloth

[xrayzebra]

LBJ inherited a war while GW invented one out of whole cloth


You are wrong. As two left feet.

[medstudent]

I can't really judge or blame Bush. This whole story is similar to LBJ's Presidency, both were President during a real tough time with tribulations for the whole nation and both served up what they and their cabinet members thought were best, both received decisions from edgy people. In LBJ's case Macnamara and Bush's case Rove and I can't really ask for more, because you can't change the past and their decisions. Probably 50 years in the future most will look back and cut Bush some slack, because of the difficult situation he was put in, like they did LBJ.

If you can't judge or blame someone you have not been paying much attention.

For the sake of argument lets say W had good reason to invade Iraq. His complete incompetence bungled everything positive that could have come from the invasion.

Saying, oh its a tough situation doesn't excuse incompetence.

You should be demanding more from your government, especially because if we get into another ill advised war, it will be you and your friends fighting it, not me.

[xrayzebra]

^^Obviously you are not a citizen of United States.

[smeagol]

Say-what-the-fuck?! Or hell, who knows! Maybe, just maybe, they have a point! Holy shit! I might be wrong. Dear God, I should go cut myself...stupid human, being wrong sometimes.

Neocons are never wrong.

Get that through your thick skull buddy!

[Oh, Gee!!]

speaking of partisan bickering, where's Yoni? It seems like I haven't encountered one of his posts in weeks.

[Wild Cobra]

so to sum it up dissent aides the enemy.. so now we have the war whores telling us the only way to be patriotic is to keep your mouth shut... got it.
I'm not suggesting that people shut up at all. Shouldn’t we have constructive criticism rather than the lies, hateful words, and destructive words that continually demoralize others?

[clambake]

I'm not suggesting that people shut up at all. Shouldn’t we have constructive criticism rather than the lies, hateful words, and destructive words that continually demoralize others?
You sound fragile. I don't think you're a good representation of the individuals in our military. I think they're mentally stronger.

[johnsmith]

You sound fragile. I don't think you're a good representation of the individuals in our military. I think they're mentally stronger.


Sweet, we're making fun of former soldiers now.


Screw you WWII vets!

[DarkReign]

I'm not suggesting that people shut up at all. Shouldn’t we have constructive criticism rather than the lies, hateful words, and destructive words that continually demoralize others?

Honestly, I would associate lies, hateful words, etc more with this government than I would any of its detractors.

Why, you ask?

Because detractors dont make policy, this government does.

[Oh, Gee!!]

I'm not suggesting that people shut up at all. Shouldn’t we have constructive criticism rather than the lies, hateful words, and destructive words that continually demoralize others?

Lemme guess. The neocons get to decide what constitutes "lies, hateful words, and destructive words?"

[Wild Cobra]

When he pulls the "true American" and treason cards, you bet it's necessary. I consider talk like that a personal attack on me and I will respond in kind.
It's the people who have media value and are invested in us losing that I am calling traitors. Are you that important? As for true American... Maybe I won't explain that one. No need to piss anyone off.... Let's just say that people should really consider the rammifications of their words.

Follow it up with a completely ignorant take on Darfur and a refusal to even find out what was so egregiously wrong with it when it's pointed out to him -- that's open season for ridicule.
I acknowledged a mistake and did look things up. Your point? You are the one being ridiculous by being petty about things. At least I am man enough to admit mistakes.

[ChumpDumper]

It's the people who have media value and are invested in us losing that I am calling traitors. Are you that important? As for true American... Maybe I won't explain that one. No need to piss anyone off.... Let's just say that people should really consider the rammifications of their words.Let's just say you're throwing around words you aren't even serious about and possibly don't even understand. "Invested in us losing"? What does that mean?


I acknowledged a mistake and did look things up. Your point? You are the one being ridiculous by being petty about things. At least I am man enough to admit mistakes.After refusing to admit them. How manly. You proved you simply didn't know what you were talking about. It's easy to see that trend has continued.

[E20]

If you can't judge or blame someone you have not been paying much attention.

For the sake of argument lets say W had good reason to invade Iraq. His complete incompetence bungled everything positive that could have come from the invasion.

Saying, oh its a tough situation doesn't excuse incompetence.

You should be demanding more from your government, especially because if we get into another ill advised war, it will be you and your friends fighting it, not me.
I never said I agree with what he has done, but given his position and what was thrown at him, he had some tough decisions to make and he did what he thought was best and after it's done it's done. I mean we can talk about how the situation is F'ed up, but that wouldn't really get anything done. He invaded Afghanistan which was not a bad idea and most Afghans are grateful for getting rid of the Taliban, but he didn't have a solid reason to enter Iraq which I disagree with the entering of that war, but what are you gonna do about it.

we get into another ill advised war, it will be you and your friends fighting it, not me.
I'm in college so I won't get drafted.

You should be demanding more from your government
Ask not what your country can do for you—ask what you can do for your country.[/JFK]

[medstudent]

I never said I agree with what he has done, but given his position and what was thrown at him, he had some tough decisions to make and he did what he thought was best and after it's done it's done. I mean we can talk about how the situation is F'ed up, but that wouldn't really get anything done. He invaded Afghanistan which was not a bad idea and most Afghans are grateful for getting rid of the Taliban, but he didn't have a solid reason to enter Iraq which I disagree with the entering of that war, but what are you gonna do about it.

I'm in college so I won't get drafted.

Ask not what your country can do for you—ask what you can do for your country.[/JFK]

Dude. College doesn't protect you. Go to the selective service website. You'll see that they take everyone. 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 19, 18.

[E20]

Dude. College doesn't protect you. Go to the selective service website. You'll see that they take everyone. 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 19, 18.
I guess it's changed, but during the Vietnam war if you were going to college they couldn't draft you to fight, but do some cilvilan work or was I mistaken?

[DarkReign]

Ask not what your country can do for you—ask what you can do for your country.[/JFK]

Dont quote a man who was executed on the very topic we discuss.

Not very relevant when we know who "won" that argument.

[ChumpDumper]

he didn't have a solid reason to enter Iraq which I disagree with the entering of that war, but what are you gonna do about it.Demand competence in the prosecution of the war.
I'm in college so I won't get drafted.I wouldn't count on that.

[E20]

Dont quote a man who was executed on the very topic we discuss.

Not very relevant when we know who "won" that argument.
What topic are we discussing? LMAO I just put in my two cents.

[E20]

I wouldn't count on that.
I guess it's changed, but during the Vietnam war if you were going to college they couldn't draft you to fight, but do some cilvilan work or was I mistaken?

BTW, if a draft were to occur, I am pretty sure, if not 100% I will not fight in that war.

[clambake]

I guess it's changed, but during the Vietnam war if you were going to college they couldn't draft you to fight, but do some cilvilan work or was I mistaken?

BTW, if a draft were to occur, I am pretty sure, if not 100% I will not fight in that war.
canada? they'll be waiting

[E20]

canada? they'll be waiting
Not even that.

[clambake]

Not even that.
crenshaw?

[DarkReign]

I guess it's changed, but during the Vietnam war if you were going to college they couldn't draft you to fight, but do some cilvilan work or was I mistaken?

College expemption was true, if you attended until you were 26.


In order to gain an exemption or deferment many men obtained student deferments by attending college, though they would have to remain in college until their 26th birthday to be certain of avoiding the draft. Some got married, which remained an exemption throughout the war.

Actually read the entire article, its good.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_the_Vietnam_War

[E20]

crenshaw?
-Medical Reasons
-Religous Reasons


Can anybody clarify on the College excuse? I mean I'm 100% postive that in my AP US History class in HS I read that people who were going to college or attending college/grad school were not drafted, people with good professions were not drafted, the people that were drafted were bums and crazy people or who had no life.

EDIT:
Nevermind about the college question, DarkReign gots the link above my post.

[ChumpDumper]

Well, that's disappointing, E20. There are wars worth fighting. I would just want to be sure that I wasn't risking my life for an incompetent leader.

[E20]

Well, that's disappointing, E20. There are wars worth fighting. I would just want to be sure that I wasn't risking my life for an incompetent leader.
I wouldn't wanna fight in a war that I didn't fully trust in the cause or believe in it, because then I would just be putting my life on the line in vain, and IMO most wars that the US are headed for fit that above criteria for me.

[Wild Cobra]

Let's just say you're throwing around words you aren't even serious about and possibly don't even understand. "Invested in us losing"? What does that mean?
The "invested with us losing" is a real scenario. The democrats in congress have taken the 'remove the troops', 'we're losing', etc. to such a degree that if we win, it is a serious political defeat for them!

After refusing to admit them. How manly. You proved you simply didn't know what you were talking about. It's easy to see that trend has continued.What trend?

How can you be so daft? Let's review:

Post #32, 8/22, 17:27; I made a serious mistake.

Post #37, 8/22, 17:30; You quote mine implying I will edit it.

Post #45, 8/22, 17:44; I said I stand by my words. Thinking you were being silly, I went on to other things.

After posting that, still confused in what was going on, I reread the others. While I was composing post #45, you edited post #39. It's new time is 17:43. I never saw the edits till after I posted mine saying I'll stand by my words.

Post #39, 8/22, 1743 edited version prompted
Post # 50, 8/22, 17:57; Acknowledged my mistake after researching my mistake.

If you consider what happened in that short of a time span to be refusal, then you are really a lost cause, or really stupid.

Have any reasonable criticisms about my character?

[ChumpDumper]

I wouldn't wanna fight in a war that I didn't fully trust in the cause or believe in it, because then I would just be putting my life on the line in vain.I agree fully with that.

[clambake]

just do what dick and W did.

If you were in college, and failing, pack your bags.

[xrayzebra]

Well, that's disappointing, E20. There are wars worth fighting. I would just want to be sure that I wasn't risking my life for an incompetent leader.

Chump you are not sure of much. And that is a fact.

One of these days you will have to make a decision and
stick with it. You are going to find out you are not the
final decision maker on many things. And that also is
a fact.

[George Gervin's Afro]

I was discussing this ridiculous notion concerning the new neocon definition of patriotism recently with one of my co-workers. He was a die hard Bush supporter in 2000.. an Aggie proud of another Texan winning the Presidency...today? He is a Democrat because of Bush.. I brought up to him this notion of patriotism and fighting for our country. We both are both in our late 30's.. I told him that if we were invaded by a foreign foe that I would kiss my son goodbye and head to the front lines in South Texas knowing full well that it would probably be the last time I would ever see my child. He agreed that he woud lay his life down to protect our country... NEITHER of us would consider fighting in Iraq because we know it does nothing for our freedom here at home..The moral of the story for the Ray's of the world is very simple. Most Liberals would lay their lives down for this country but not in an unecessary war.. and certainly not for a President , or political party, that does not value the lives of those who fight ... dems may be wrong on this Ira thing but most want the troops home in one piece..

[xrayzebra]

Neocons are never wrong.

Get that through your thick skull buddy!

Much like the Liberals who know they are never wrong,
right?

Besides if a Liberal is wrong, it was the right thing to do
and it makes you feel better.......
:lol

[ChumpDumper]

The "invested with us losing" is a real scenario. The democrats in congress have taken the 'remove the troops', 'we're losing', etc. to such a degree that if we win, it is a serious political defeat for them!You mean, the ones who voted for the war and would be in the presidents office while troops were still in Iraq?


What trend?

How can you be so daft? Let's review:

Post #32, 8/22, 17:27; I made a serious mistake.

Post #37, 8/22, 17:30; You quote mine implying I will edit it.

Post #45, 8/22, 17:44; I said I stand by my words. Thinking you were being silly, I went on to other things.

After posting that, still confused in what was going on, I reread the others. While I was composing post #45, you edited post #39. It's new time is 17:43. I never saw the edits till after I posted mine saying I'll stand by my words.

Post #39, 8/22, 1743 edited version prompted
Post # 50, 8/22, 17:57; Acknowledged my mistake after researching my mistake.Maybe you should check your facts before posting as anally as you just documented your error.

I
f you consider what happened in that short of a time span to be refusal, then you are really a lost cause, or really stupid.

Have any reasonable criticisms about my character?Of course I do. You are biased, closed minded, and not as smart as you like to pretend to be.

And a neocon.

Even though you don't seem to know what it means.

[ChumpDumper]

Chump you are not sure of much. And that is a fact.

One of these days you will have to make a decision and
stick with it.Already done.
You are going to find out you are not the
final decision maker on many things. And that also is
a fact.No shit.

[medstudent]

-Medical Reasons
-Religous Reasons


Can anybody clarify on the College excuse? I mean I'm 100% postive that in my AP US History class in HS I read that people who were going to college or attending college/grad school were not drafted, people with good professions were not drafted, the people that were drafted were bums and crazy people or who had no life.

what is there to clarify? You used to be able to get an educational deferrment. Now you cannot. They let you finish your semester and then you go where ever they tell you to do whatever they want. It doesn't matter your profession or income or whatever.

They changed the policy because the poor were fighting America's wars and that is unfair.

Maybe now you'll be a little more interested and critical of a government that has the power to own you. Because if we get into another war and start a draft, it will be because of dickhead's war completely that depleted the volunteer military.

[clambake]

Have any reasonable criticisms about my character?
yah, you don't know what a true american is

hitler youth used to talk about what being a true german was

you keep fine company

[Wild Cobra]

Can anybody clarify on the College excuse?
Not with certainty.

I mean I'm 100% postive that in my AP US History class in HS I read that people who were going to college or attending college/grad school were not drafted, people with good professions were not drafted, the people that were drafted were bums and crazy people or who had no life.
If I recall right, the draft system was complex enough to factor those going to college to be exempt depending on their courses and grades. The people in professions were dependant on the necessity of the professions both and civilian and military occupations. Many doctors were drafted....

It isn't that bums and lazy people were drafted, just that they had no reasons not to be drafted unless they had a medical reason. Religion did not matter. Conscientious objectors were simply placed in noncombatant jobs.

----added----

The above is not to say that those finishing college could not be drafted. Just that they are now qualified to be drafted as officers!

[medstudent]

And E20 if you choose to be a conscientious objector, they will still take you and make you do something else, even if its not combat.

[xrayzebra]

I was discussing this ridiculous notion concerning the new neocon definition of patriotism recently with one of my co-workers. He was a die hard Bush supporter in 2000.. an Aggie proud of another Texan winning the Presidency...today? He is a Democrat because of Bush.. I brought up to him this notion of patriotism and fighting for our country. We both are both in our late 30's.. I told him that if we were invaded by a foreign foe that I would kiss my son goodbye and head to the front lines in South Texas knowing full well that it would probably be the last time I would ever see my child. He agreed that he woud lay his life down to protect our country... NEITHER of us would consider fighting in Iraq because we know it does nothing for our freedom here at home..The moral of the story for the Ray's of the world is very simple. Most Liberals would lay their lives down for this country but not in an unecessary war.. and certainly not for a President , or political party, that does not value the lives of those who fight ... dems may be wrong on this Ira thing but most want the troops home in one piece..


Well GGA, you like most Liberals wont admit that it isn't
the President that takes a country into war. The
government as a whole does that. No President can
single handily take the country into war. And if you
believe that Congress hasn't been fully informed on
the intelligence the President uses to request "permission"
to go to war, then you are dumb as a door knob.

Those of the Congress who now claim they were duped
into voting for war need to be replaced because they
are also dumb as a door knob.

The "rays" of this world have done their share to keep
this country in shape so you call call us the dummies.
So enjoy your freedom. That is what we served for.

[E20]

what is there to clarify? You used to be able to get an educational deferrment. Now you cannot. They let you finish your semester and then you go where ever they tell you to do whatever they want. It doesn't matter your profession or income or whatever.

They changed the policy because the poor were fighting America's wars and that is unfair.

Maybe now you'll be a little more interested and critical of a government that has the power to own you. Because if we get into another war and start a draft, it will be because of dickhead's war completely that depleted the volunteer military.
I would not get drafted as said before, so it doesn't really apply to me, moreso to you than me. Better watch out. LMAO

But I don't think that the Bush adminstration will start another war in the time frame of the remaining term. Who would they go to war against? Iran.......they don't have that much shit on Iran, except for Uranium enrichment and ties with other ME countries.

[E20]

And E20 if you choose to be a conscientious objector, they will still take you and make you do something else, even if its not combat.
I have no serious problem with that, but I highly doubt that I still will definetly get drafted if there was a war and I have an excellent medical reason to negate that draft.

[xrayzebra]

I would not get drafted as said before, so it doesn't really apply to me, moreso to you than me. Better watch out. LMAO

But I don't think that the Bush adminstration will start another war in the time frame of the remaining term. Who would they go to war against? Iran.......they don't have that much shit on Iran, except for Uranium enrichment and ties with other ME countries.

And bankrolling and furnishing arms to the AQ in Iraq.
Just a little fart, no shit.
:blah

[Wild Cobra]

Those of the Congress who now claim they were duped
into voting for war need to be replaced because they
are also dumb as a door knob.

Absolutely true.

Then don't forget Hillary's excuse. She didn't read it! What qualifications!

[E20]

And bankrolling and furnishing arms to the AQ in Iraq.
Just a little fart, no shit.
:blah
I was gonna mention that, but I'm uncertain about that because I haven't really kept up to date witht he whole Iran fiasco and haven't really read any clear cut proof if Iran is arming AQ fighters in Iraq, the most I have heard/read about Iran is the whole harnessing of Nuclear energy.

[clambake]

I would not get drafted as said before, so it doesn't really apply to me, moreso to you than me. Better watch out. LMAO

But I don't think that the Bush adminstration will start another war in the time frame of the remaining term. Who would they go to war against? Iran.......they don't have that much shit on Iran, except for Uranium enrichment and ties with other ME countries.
they didn't have any shit on iraq, that didn't stop them. this administration is the king of fabricators.

[ChumpDumper]

Congress authorized the use of force.

Bush gave the order to invade.

Congress is responsible for being pussies.

Bush is responsible for the war

[George Gervin's Afro]

Well GGA, you like most Liberals wont admit that it isn't
the President that takes a country into war. The
government as a whole does that. No President can
single handily take the country into war. And if you
believe that Congress hasn't been fully informed on
the intelligence the President uses to request "permission"
to go to war, then you are dumb as a door knob.

Those of the Congress who now claim they were duped
into voting for war need to be replaced because they
are also dumb as a door knob.

The "rays" of this world have done their share to keep
this country in shape so you call call us the dummies.
So enjoy your freedom. That is what we served for.


The Congress can declare war but the President is the only person who can send others to fight. You get that? Let's assume your right (which your not) about those who have seen the error of their ways.. they now want to rectify the situation by bringing those in harms way home.. isn't that the right thing to do? You propose to stay in Iraq indefinitely even though the President has said on numerous occasions that this Iraq thng may not work out as he had hoped...

[ChumpDumper]

Congress didn't declare war. They voted to puss out and give that power to Bush.

[George Gervin's Afro]

I was gonna mention that, but I'm uncertain about that because I haven't really kept up to date witht he whole Iran fiasco and haven't really read any clear cut proof if Iran is arming AQ fighters in Iraq, the most I have heard/read about Iran is the whole harnessing of Nuclear energy.


some intellectual honesty..This administration deserves to be questioned at every turn when mking accusations about Iran or anyone else for that matter...Bush has his only himslef to blame for the lack of credibility ths govt has at this point..

[George Gervin's Afro]

Congress didn't declare war. They voted to puss out and give that power to Bush.


I understand that but I wanted to remind Ray how the war powers in this country work..

[medstudent]

We'll see E20. For your sake I hope you're right.

[E20]

We'll see E20. For your sake I hope you're right.
I was tested postive for TB baby!!! :elephant :smokin

Don't tell any girls this, it might scare them away, but my Doctor told me that if my lungs are suddenly put under too much stress and work, I might just start seizuring and throwing up blood from the lack of oxygen baby!

[George Gervin's Afro]

Yoni is lurking..prepare for the blogs...

[medstudent]

I was tested postive for TB baby!!! :elephant :smokin

Don't tell any girls this, it might scare them away, but my Doctor told me that if my lungs are suddenly put under too much stress and work, I might just start seizuring and throwing up blood from the lack of oxygen baby!

Are you on medication? Rifampin and Isonazid?

[xrayzebra]

Oh my, it is just got to be Bush fault. Congress has no blame
for anything. What a bunch of wimps we have in this forum.

You bunch of gutless wonders. All you can scream is Bush, Bush
and more Bush.

And you are what I have to rely on in my golden years. I am
the one that needs to be worried.

Oh, and by the way, I don't think Congress made a mistake
in their decision to support Bush. He did the right thing. It
is some that are still in Congress that are making the mistake
of supporting a no win situation. By the way what is the
alternative to not winning. Could it be losing?

[clambake]

I thought you left?

[xrayzebra]

some intellectual honesty..This administration deserves to be questioned at every turn when mking accusations about Iran or anyone else for that matter...Bush has his only himslef to blame for the lack of credibility ths govt has at this point..

Really. Do you believe the most wonderful UN.
Just checking. I want to be sure who you do trust.

[xrayzebra]

I thought you left?

That should read, thought you were right. You are
left.

[clambake]

where are the wonderful writings of others as seen through yoni's eyes?

[xrayzebra]

where are the wonderful writings of others as seen through yoni's eyes?

He may have a life other than this forum. I am sure he
will show up in a few days. Which reminds me. It's
Miller time.......
:drunk

[ChumpDumper]

Oh my, it is just got to be Bush fault. Congress has no blame
for anything. What a bunch of wimps we have in this forum.

You bunch of gutless wonders. All you can scream is Bush, Bush
and more Bush.

And you are what I have to rely on in my golden years. I am
the one that needs to be worried.

Oh, and by the way, I don't think Congress made a mistake
in their decision to support Bush. He did the right thing. It
is some that are still in Congress that are making the mistake
of supporting a no win situation. By the way what is the
alternative to not winning. Could it be losing?
So there was no mistake, but if there was it wasn't Bush's fault.

You're a bit to eager to spread the blame to maintain no mistakes were made.

[DarkReign]

But I don't think that the Bush adminstration will start another war in the time frame of the remaining term. Who would they go to war against? Iran.......they don't have that much shit on Iran, except for Uranium enrichment and ties with other ME countries.

Completely unrelated to the draft, I am shocked youre so confident this President would or would not do anything he so chooses.

Just wait, Iran will fuck up worse than they are (supplying guns/etc to "insurgents" in Iraq), we might be "terrorized" again, and you'll be surprised how fast the sheeple hit their knees with mouth agape begging to him to do something.

I hate people, in case you couldnt tell.

[xrayzebra]

So there was no mistake, but if there was it wasn't Bush's fault.

You're a bit to eager to spread the blame to maintain no mistakes were made.

I don't think any mistakes were made. By Bush or
Congress. And Bush is sticking by his decision. Some in
Congress aren't. Of course some in Congress cant even
satisfy their Left wing group.....like Pelosi who now has
an opponent more left leaning than she is.

[ChumpDumper]

Sorry, guys - it's not a partisan issue for me. I completely supported Bush 1 in the Gulf War and Bush 2 in Afghanistan.

Those were the right fights in the right places.

This invasion and occupation was not. And it was made worse because it was done in a half-assed, incompetent manner.

Plain and simple.

None of your whining about Pelosi is going to change any of that.

[Wild Cobra]

Wow... You've really developed a hatred towards me. I must have hit a few nerves.


Of course I do. You are biased, closed minded, and not as smart as you like to pretend to be.
We all have some bias.

I am a traditional liberal in many aspects, especially when it comes to being open minded. Today's liberals are not traditional liberals.

I don't care how smart you think I am. You just cannot be civil, can you?

And a neocon.
Nope. You should look it up better. I am closer to a conservative libertarian. We are on opposite sides with neocons when it comes to spending especially.


Even though you don't seem to know what it means.
I know what it means and I like the traditional definition more than the modern. I don't like the term because it is one that keeps changing definitions over time.

[ChumpDumper]

Wow... You've really developed a hatred towards me. I must have hit a few nerves.Yes, the ones that respond to neocon hacks.
I don't care how smart you think I am.You care immensely about how smart you think you are.
I know what it means and I like the traditional definition more than the modern. I don't like the term because it is one that keeps changing definitions over time.No, it doesn't.

[ChumpDumper]

You just cannot be civil, can you?Refrain from questioning other posters' love of this country or beating your chest and proclaiming yourself some kind of Uberamerican and I'll consider it.

[E20]

Are you on medication? Rifampin and Isonazid?
Medstudent are you really a medstudent or are you a troll pretending to be a med student, because the stuff you say a normal troll would not got out of his way to post.


Completely unrelated to the draft, I am shocked youre so confident this President would or would not do anything he so chooses.

Just wait, Iran will fuck up worse than they are (supplying guns/etc to "insurgents" in Iraq), we might be "terrorized" again, and you'll be surprised how fast the sheeple hit their knees with mouth agape begging to him to do something.

I hate people, in case you couldnt tell.

My reasoning behind my confidence is because we're already so caught up in Iraq and the adminstration knows they have f'ed up with this war, because none of the allegations have been brought out to be the truth, so it would be borderline crazy to start a war with Iran because of the current status, unless if something drastic were to happen. I don't know the entire story of Iran providing/funding AQ fighters in Iraq and haven't seen anything in the news, because I haven't paid attention to this situation with Iran.

[medstudent]

My reasoning behind my confidence is because we're already so caught up in Iraq and the adminstration knows they have f'ed up with this war, because none of the allegations have been brought out to be the truth, so it would be borderline crazy to start a war with Iran because of the current status, unless if something drastic were to happen. I don't know the entire story of Iran providing/funding AQ fighters in Iraq and haven't seen anything in the news, because I haven't paid attention to this situation with Iran.

Never underestimate Bush's limits or sanity. Too many people have.

[Wild Cobra]

Refrain from questioning other posters' love of this country or beating your chest and proclaiming yourself some kind of Uberamerican and I'll consider it.
So I say things like "As long as there is progress and hope. Us true Americans will support the efforts. The rest of you can suck each other off." and you think I'm wrong? Should we bail out as long as we have hope and progress? Is that what a true American will do? Sure, I could have left that last sentence off, but as a vetran I find people like you very offensive.

My statement, and the two above it in posing #12 were in response to the tone of the prior ones. It doesn't matter if you believed before we started our actions in Iraq were right or wrong. We are there now and must remain committed to keep Iraq from going into real chaos as long as it is possible.

Anyone advocating we leave them to their own demise is flat out evil if they understand the consequences. What message would that tactic send to the world about us?

Re-read my posting #12 and try to see it from a neutral view.

Post #12 (http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1920536&postcount=12)

[PixelPusher]

. It doesn't matter if you believed before we started our actions in Iraq were right or wrong. We are there now and must remain committed to keep Iraq from going into real chaos as long as it is possible.

"Mistake were made, but that's not important right now..."

That will be the epitath of the Bush years. The sum total of their unrepentant folly.

[Wild Cobra]

"Mistake were made, but that's not important right now..."

That will be the epitath of the Bush years. The sum total of their unrepentant folly.
That isn't determined yet so please state such things as opinion. Iraq can still come out as a positive thing. I can agree that president Bush has made some other mistakes that will be detractors for the future. I don't see this war as one of them. Wars are not easy, mistakes are inevitable.

Ever hear of a perfect war?

[clambake]

That isn't determined yet so please state such things as opinion. Iraq can still come out as a positive thing. I can agree that president Bush has made some other mistakes that will be detractors for the future. I don't see this war as one of them. Wars are not easy, mistakes are inevitable.

Ever hear of a perfect war?
One may know how to gain a victory, and know not how to use it.

One doesn't have to be a minion to be a true american. But you wouldn't understand.

[PixelPusher]

Ever hear of a perfect war?

Ever hear of a pyrrhic victory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory)?

Because that's the best possible outcome for your pet war.

[clambake]

What, nothing about the message we've already sent the world?

are you that fucking stupid?

[Wild Cobra]

Ever hear of a pyrrhic victory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory)?

Because that's the best possible outcome for your pet war.
That's a poor example. This has not been devistating for us.

[Wild Cobra]

One doesn't have to be a minion to be a true american. But you wouldn't understand.
Well, believe what you want. Minion? I'm far from that. I'm just not a defeatist like apparently many here are.

Wonder how 'cut and run' talk would go over with Spurs players when they are haveing a less than victorious game?

[Wild Cobra]

Ever hear of a pyrrhic victory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory)?
Just to add. Our Civil War was a pyrrhic victory. Not only did we lose horrific numbers of lives, but the south should have never attacked the north after seceding. They successfully seceded, then started a war. How stupid is that?

I believe that if they stayed seceded, then after a few years, the north and south would have worked out the states rights issues, and we wouldn't have the super large federal government like we do today.

There are times I wish the south had won. With victory of the north, we lost the intent of states rights in our constitution.

Slavery was just one issue under states rights I'm sure it would have evolved after time as well, and we probably wouldn't have the same animosity we have still today.

[ChumpDumper]

Ever hear of a perfect war?Ever hear of a horribly planned and executed war and occupation?

This is it.

There are no perfect wars, but this one has been exceptional in the number and scope of the errors committed by the Bush administration, the civilian occupation leaders and the generals. You can't gloss over it by saying -- well, nobody's perfect, so no one should be held accountable. Neocons want all the "fun" of war without the responsibility.

[ChumpDumper]

Re-read my posting #12 and try to see it from a neutral view.Feh, read any post from a neutral view.

You can't.

You're a demagogue. Live with it.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Wonder how 'cut and run' talk would go over with Spurs players when they are haveing a less than victorious game?

If basketball players and fans start getting blown up at Spurs games and the team decides to play on, you'll have a valid point.

[DarkReign]

They successfully succeeded, then started a war. How stupid is that?

Not being a prick here, seriously, I understand what youre saying, but thats the improper spelling.

Its "secession". So, in useage, its "...successfully seceeded..." for example.

[Wild Cobra]

Not being a prick here, seriously, I understand what youre saying, but thats the improper spelling.

Its "secession". So, in useage, its "...successfully seceeded..." for example.
LOL... Ooopps...

Should I fix it or leave it?

---added---

OK, I fixed it.

[clambake]

editing vanity

[Wild Cobra]

editing vanity
Just have to provoke things huh?

[PixelPusher]

Just to add. Our Civil War was a pyrrhic victory. Not only did we lose horrific numbers of lives, but the south should have never attacked the north after seceding. They successfully seceded, then started a war. How stupid is that?

I believe that if they stayed seceded, then after a few years, the north and south would have worked out the states rights issues, and we wouldn't have the super large federal government like we do today.

There are times I wish the south had won. With victory of the north, we lost the intent of states rights in our constitution.

Slavery was just one issue under states rights I'm sure it would have evolved after time as well, and we probably wouldn't have the same animosity we have still today.
It's striking how many conservatives sympathize with the Confederacy. And you guys wonder why African Americans distrust the Republican party.

[Wild Cobra]

It's striking how many conservatives sympathize with the Confederacy. And you guys wonder why African Americans distrust the Republican party.
It's not sympathy with slavery. Don't confuse things please. It's about States Right. Plain and simple. The south was wrong to want slavery. I will not defend slavery, just the states rights part.

[DarkReign]

Say what you want, but WC has a point. The Civil War was the beginning of the end for states rights and the introduction of the federal income tax.

[j-6]

Just to add. Our Civil War was a pyrrhic victory. Not only did we lose horrific numbers of lives, but the south should have never attacked the north after seceding. They successfully seceded, then started a war. How stupid is that?

I believe that if they stayed seceded, then after a few years, the north and south would have worked out the states rights issues, and we wouldn't have the super large federal government like we do today.

There are times I wish the south had won. With victory of the north, we lost the intent of states rights in our constitution.

Slavery was just one issue under states rights I'm sure it would have evolved after time as well, and we probably wouldn't have the same animosity we have still today.


The Civil War was about slavery, pure and simple. Davis and Stephens were both on record saying that slavery was the cornerstone of the Confederacy. Problem was, the seven states that were most heavily influenced by slavery were going to be dwarfed in the Senate and in Presidential elections by 27 non-slavery states. And exactly that happened in November of 1860 when Lincoln was elected.

The Civil War killed every eighth man that put on a grey uniform because a bunch of rich slaveowners saw every major candidate in the 1860 election seeking to abolish slavery. The Missouri Compromise was forty years earlier, the Kansas-Nebraska Act was six years earlier, and Dred Scott was three years earlier. They even were shortsighted enough to divide the Democratic party in half, putting up their own candidate against Stephen Douglas, whose family were slaveowners and would have been much more lenient than Lincoln on this issue.

Secession occurred because the only way slavery was going to exist was in another country by the time that election was over. People didn't travel much in the 1860's, and news really didn't either. Most people in the North - unless they were influenced by abolishionist-style journalism - could care less about the slaves in the South. They were busy being domestics and canal diggers for four bucks an eighty-plus hour workweek and most didn't have their letters anyway. Not to mention that South Carolina is a helluva long way from Boston on horseback. Heck, they probably could have related to the black slaves if given the idle time to do so. And not every Southerner lived in Tara, either. Most were poor farmers and laborers, too.

That's like a bunch of people on the moon trying to tell us what to do with our property. And that's exactly what slaves were.

So, just like with anything else, personal greed of a few decided the fate of a great many. Sure, there were states rights issues - the moon analogy. But the driving force behind what a few desperate rich white guys did was to keep the institution of slavery viable when it rightfully was going out of style.

[spurster]

It is hard to believe that there is anyone left defending Bush. He is spending lives and billions and horrific causalities and an exhausted Army on Iraq while OBL is in Pakistan and the Taliban are rising again in Afghanistan.

It's not like I have any high hopes for the Democrats. Any real chance they've had so far they have caved in to Bush.

[boutons_]

"States Rights"

.. was and always will be a code word for racism. It was for George Wallace in the 60s, and still is. The southern states wanted the "right" to continue institutionalizing racism with that right being abrogated by the Feds.

The real Repug revolution in the south was when the Repugs convinced the southern racist/discriminating whites, who had been voting Dem when they were poor, but started rising economically in the 70s, to realize that the Repugs were really the anti-black party and to start voting Repug. That was fundamental to the Repug election success in the last 25 years.