Should Ginobili start this season?

[Scola Trade]

I know the argument about having Ginobili coming off the bench to provide energy and scoring blah blah blah.... However, an argument can also be made against the idea. I remember many games last season where we had a slow start. Dam it I miss those games where Ginobi will get the 1st layout of the game on tipoff.
What do you guys think?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

He's fine coming off the bench

[wildchild]

I know the argument about having Ginobili coming off the bench to provide energy and scoring blah blah blah.... However, an argument can also be made against the idea. I remember many games last season where we had a slow start. Dam it I miss those games where Ginobi will get the 1st layout of the game on tipoff.
What do you guys think?

If you didn't know that, you should have call Pop :lol

[Reggie Miller]

One ball. Three stars. Ginobili should stay in the 6th man role. I agree that it hurts his production sometimes, but it would hurt Parker's production much more. I'm very glad that Ginobili really is the team player that he presents himself to be.

[duncan228]

Manu is great either way. Energy off the bench or a starting punch.

I think Pop's handled it well these last couple of seasons.
Manu starts until we play like shit.
Then he comes off the bench and gives us the spark we need.

I expect that this season too.
It works, why mess with it?

[ChumpDumper]

I want him to come off the bench, if only to further insult the vicarious honor of Argentinian posters.

[E20]

It's gonna be the same as always. He's gonna start for the early parts of the season and then come off the bench.

[Dex]

I say keep him on the bench. Past experiments have shown he's more effective that way, and it's not like anybody is questioning that he ISN'T good enough to start.

He's more productive against the second units, can handle the offensive load after Tony and Tim sit, and it's an effective way to ration his minutes and keep Manu healthy and rested.

If you start him for a while, then it's just gonna cause another public fallout when/if he eventually goes back to playing off the bench.

[Tippecanoe]

I want him to come off the bench, if only to further insult the vicarious honor of Argentinian posters.

we have bingo :lol

[duncan228]

If you start him for a while, then it's just gonna cause another public fallout when/if he eventually goes back to playing off the bench.

Public fallout?
I remember the first season Pop did it there was lots of conversation about it but I thought last year it was taken in stride.
I remember Manu saying "What took you so long?" when Pop did it last year. Everyone knew it was coming and that it was a good thing.

Did I miss something?

[spursfan09]

How awesome is that the team can start off with Tim and Tony dominating. Then when Tim goes to take a seat and the other team thinks there will be some relief then Ginobili checks in to run with Tony.

[Extra Stout]

Manu can start and Tony come off the bench as soon as Paris builds a facsimile of Buenos Aires in its downtown.

[Obstructed_View]

Unfortunately the decision's almost always had nothing to do with Manu's production. Finley plays anywhere from decent to great when he starts, and he's abysmal when he comes off the bench. Manu can do either, and he's of course going to be on the floor at the end of the game, when the team really needs him. Manu's energy is nice to have whenever you can get it, but Fin and Barry have to put on their big girl panties in order for Manu to be able to start.

[Solid D]

One ball. Three stars. Ginobili should stay in the 6th man role. I agree that it hurts his production sometimes, but it would hurt Parker's production much more. I'm very glad that Ginobili really is the team player that he presents himself to be.

Manu doesn't hurt Tony's production, nor anyone else's production when they are on the floor with him. Manu ends games with TP and Timmy because that is the best group to win with.

When Pop brings Manu off the bench in the 1st quarter or 3rd quarter, it's strictly to bring a creator off the bench because the Spurs are lacking creators. His minutes need governing, whether a starter or not, and his minutes will be the same whether starter or not. Unless the Spurs are comfortably ahead in the last 5 minutes of games, Manu will always close-out games and that is a fact.

[ducks]

I think he should start this season and not wait tell after the allstar break to start playing spurs basketball

[ducks]

Manu can start and Tony come off the bench as soon as Paris builds a facsimile of Buenos Aires in its downtown.
yeah and who is going to start in tp place mr beno :p:

[barbacoataco]

I have thought that the reason the Spurs need Manu coming off the bench is because our 2nd unit lacks a low post scoring threat. This means that Manu's slashing offense is the only way to put pressure on the defense and not just have the 2nd unit taking low percentage contested jump shots. If Bonner develops and forces opponents to bring a big man out to the perimeter to derfend him, that will help Manu get to the basket easier. If only Elson had more of a low post game.

[Solid D]

To support my argument on why the Spurs don't suffer with Manu included in ANY 5-man unit, here is a listing of last season's Top 10 5-man floor units. Manu was on all 10, even though he only started 36 games. Not even Duncan or Parker can say the same.

Source 82games.com

San Antonio Spurs Top Five-Man Floor Units
# Unit Min Off Def +/- W L Win%
1 Parker-Ginobili-Bowen-Oberto-Duncan 290 571 503 +68 22 12 64.7
2 Parker-Ginobili-Bowen-Duncan-Elson 173 391 302 +89 15 13 53.5
3 Parker-Ginobili-Bowen-Horry-Duncan 172 328 295 +33 21 13 61.7
4 Parker-Ginobili-Finley-Bowen-Duncan 111 236 226 +10 13 10 56.5
5 Parker-Ginobili-Barry-Bowen-Duncan 61 158 131 +27 8 9 47.0
6 Udrih-Ginobili-Finley-Horry-Elson 53 92 92 +0 6 10 37.5
7 Vaughn-Ginobili-Finley-Oberto-Horry 53 145 107 +38 9 7 56.2
8 Parker-Ginobili-Bowen-Bonner-Duncan 46 116 78 +38 12 1 92.3
9 Parker-Ginobili-Finley-Horry-Duncan 35 72 53 +19 7 4 63.6
10 Parker-Ginobili-Barry-Finley-Duncan 31 90 70 +20 12 5 70.5

[Solid D]

I think he should start this season and not wait tell after the allstar break to start playing spurs basketball

Manu started the season averaging 15.7 ppg prior to injuring his back against Dallas and the Spurs went 10-2 and 7-0 on the road. After he went down, the Spurs lost 3 of the next 4 games. What more do you want from Manu to start the season?

[smeagol]

I think he should start this season and not wait tell after the allstar break to start playing spurs basketball
When ducks starts hating on Manu you know the season is slowly approaching :lol

[2centsworth]

I'm a huge Manu fan and in the past always thought the team was better with him starting. However, Fins plays way better as a starter, so the spurs are better with Manu as the 6th man.

[ducks]

When ducks starts hating on Manu you know the season is slowly approaching :lol
actually he starts the season ok duncan does not

[ploto]

Isn't there also a question as to who will start at center? If Oberto starts then Manu loses one of his best players to play alongside off the bench. Is there any chance that Elson will be back in the starting line-up to see what he can do his second season with the team?

[smeagol]

Manu should start and Tony should come off the bench.

That is this year's secret weapon.

Tony plays against the other teams subs and lights them up.

Spurs repeat.

[ducks]

Manu should start and Tony should come off the bench.

That is this year's secret weapon.

Tony plays against the other teams subs and lights them up.

Spurs repeat.
spurs repeat if they keep bringing manu off the bench

[Medvedenko]

Manu should or shouldn't.....he's a bench player that finishes the game....he doesn't have the stamina nor game to be a starter day in and day out. He's better against second tier players and adds energy against their second string. That's it people....is it about balance....maybe, but there's a reason the great Pop plays him off the bench....

[MI21]

I think he gets more credit and adulation coming off the bench. It shouldn't hurt his ego or what not, everybody does nothing but credit him for his team approach about coming off the bench, and so they should, not every player of his caliber would do that. He plays the same amount of minutes, is more involved in the offense as #1 option and he finishes the games.

Also, him off the bench means Finley is a valuable player. 2 players playing upto there ability > 1 player playing upto his ability.

[meta2007]

You don't know Manu is a starter in ARG national team and in Italy's Kinder Bologna? Manu is also the MVPs for 2004 olympics and 2001, 2002 Euroleague.



Manu should or shouldn't.....he's a bench player that finishes the game....he doesn't have the stamina nor game to be a starter day in and day out. He's better against second tier players and adds energy against their second string. That's it people....is it about balance....maybe, but there's a reason the great Pop plays him off the bench....

[Solid D]

Manu should or shouldn't.....he's a bench player that finishes the game....he doesn't have the stamina nor game to be a starter day in and day out. He's better against second tier players and adds energy against their second string. That's it people....is it about balance....maybe, but there's a reason the great Pop plays him off the bench....

Uh, no. Run along now.

[ginobili fan]

I want Manu to win 6th man of the year.
I want Tim to win RS MVP.
I want Tony to win F MVP.
And the Spurs Repeat.

[Slomo]

I ...
And the Spurs Repeat.Frankly, that's all I really care about.

[smeagol]

spurs repeat if they keep bringing manu off the bench
There is no conclusive evidence

[Reggie Miller]

Manu doesn't hurt Tony's production, nor anyone else's production when they are on the floor with him. Manu ends games with TP and Timmy because that is the best group to win with.

When Pop brings Manu off the bench in the 1st quarter or 3rd quarter, it's strictly to bring a creator off the bench because the Spurs are lacking creators. His minutes need governing, whether a starter or not, and his minutes will be the same whether starter or not. Unless the Spurs are comfortably ahead in the last 5 minutes of games, Manu will always close-out games and that is a fact.

You missed my point. I don't blame you, because I wasn't clear. Ginobili is the only player that can do this without hurting his production. I didn't mean that TP doesn't get his shots when he is on the floor with Ginobili. I meant that TP couldn't serve in the same role as Ginobili. Admittedly, no one has ever suggested he do so to my knowledge.

What Ginobili does is comparable to the top pinch-hitters in baseball. It takes a lot of experience and mental toughness to take over a game when you're coming in cold as ice.

I still think that by governing his minutes this way, Pop is recognizing the basic reality of the situation. One ball. Three stars. As you mention, this guarantees a creator on the floor at all times, rather than alternating between two and none.

Technically, possessions are not a zero-sum game, but in most cases, if player X takes a shot, then player Y isn't taking a shot. (It isn't a zero-sum game becuase of steals, offensive rebounding, etc.) The Spurs are a lot better than most teams at taking advantage of opportunities or creating them. This means that having the Spurs' Big 3 on the court isn't a complete waste of resources.

In contrast, the Celtics would be very foolish to put their Big 3 on the floor at the same time for a number of reasons. Their biggest problem is that Pierce and Allen have similar offensive games, while the Spurs' Big 3 actually have offensive games that compliment each other. (More importantly, they have been playing together for four years.)

[Man In Black]

You missed my point. I don't blame you, because I wasn't clear. Ginobili is the only player that can do this without hurting his production. I didn't mean that TP doesn't get his shots when he is on the floor with Ginobili. I meant that TP couldn't serve in the same role as Ginobili. Admittedly, no one has ever suggested he do so to my knowledge.

What Ginobili does is comparable to the top pinch-hitters in baseball. It takes a lot of experience and mental toughness to take over a game when you're coming in cold as ice.

I still think that by governing his minutes this way, Pop is recognizing the basic reality of the situation. One ball. Three stars. As you mention, this guarantees a creator on the floor at all times, rather than alternating between two and none.

Technically, possessions are not a zero-sum game, but in most cases, if player X takes a shot, then player Y isn't taking a shot. (It isn't a zero-sum game becuase of steals, offensive rebounding, etc.) The Spurs are a lot better than most teams at taking advantage of opportunities or creating them. This means that having the Spurs' Big 3 on the court isn't a complete waste of resources.

In contrast, the Celtics would be very foolish to put their Big 3 on the floor at the same time for a number of reasons. Their biggest problem is that Pierce and Allen have similar offensive games, while the Spurs' Big 3 actually have offensive games that compliment each other. (More importantly, they have been playing together for four years.)

AGREED!
Also, Boston's big 3 might work if Pierce plays a decidedly more mid-range and in game. Leave the 3's to Allen, and they have KG play pinch-post and in, especially when inside play is warranted. To me KG has deferred way too much to his fadeaway unlike Tim who finds a way to move towards the basket.

[urunobili]

Manu will start... and then move back to the bench... i would say that those switches will be more handled in team attitude from the rest of the guys...

[Obstructed_View]

but there's a reason the great Pop plays him off the bench....
http://blogs.sltrib.com/trent/uploaded_images/jazz4502.JPG

[Solid D]

Thanks for clarifying Reggie, and I think that is a valid point with good support for it.

[Reggie Miller]

Thanks for clarifying Reggie, and I think that is a valid point with good support for it.

Thanks.

This is sort of off-topic, but one thing has always puzzled me. Every team says they are going to do what the Spurs actually do, which is assign and assume roles for the good of the team. Not having the access that many of you have, I really don't understand who is responsible for this. Is it really a group leadership effort, as the team maintains? (That is, do Popovich, P.J., TD, Ginobili, et. al. all have important leadership roles?) Do you think it is more Pop and his military background? Is Duncan secretly a relentless tyrant? (Just kidding.)

At any rate, Ginobili's attitude impresses me as much as his game, maybe even more.

[SpursWillOwn]

Ginobili acts as the 6th man thru the season too.. when the Spurs are feeling stagnant Ginobili moves to the bench and provides the SPARK. the SPARK each game and each season. i'd like him off the bench but mid-season

[yavozerb]

Udoka is going to help out Manu on the 2nd team very much cause now he can D the opposing best player on the court..This should save a little of Manu's energy on the offensive end. 2nd team is going to be JV-Manu-Udoka-Horry-Elson (not to bad on both ends of the court)...

[ALVAREZ6]

Manu should start center

[Scola Trade]

Had we not traded Scola, now he could be that 6th Man coming off the bench to provide scoring and Ginobili could shift back safely to the starting line up. I'm telling you guys we're going to regret it :D

[rob5]

I want him to come off the bench, if only to further insult the vicarious honor of Argentinian posters.
that sounds racist

[ChumpDumper]

that sounds racistIt's countryist.

[freemeat]

I think this would make a GREAT VBookie!

-- Will Manu start the season?

A good follow-up question, in case he does, would be

-- In what month will Manu start coming off the bench?

[rob5]

It's countryist.
whatever u wanna call it. it still offends a lot of people. bet u wouldn't say the same about africans

[Extra Stout]

whatever u wanna call it. it still offends a lot of people. bet u wouldn't say the same about africans
Argentina can stand up for itself. Mostly.

[ChumpDumper]

whatever u wanna call it. it still offends a lot of people. bet u wouldn't say the same about africansAfrica is not a country, so I wouldn't say that about them. I did mean to offend certain Argentinians.

[rob5]

Africa is not a country, so I wouldn't say that about them. I did mean to offend certain Argentinians.
well..pick an african country..u still wouldn't say it in fear of offending black americans. But its ok to offend hispanic americans?

[TMTTRIO]

One side of me thinks he should start and deserves to start but on the other hand it's worked out pretty well so far so I guess I would continue it. One thing that I was thinking about the other day though is Manu really struggled coming off the bench during the playoffs this year when Tim and Tony were off the court but he still came up clutch in some of the games so we'll see. Speaking of Manu coming off the bench, the Jazz were asking should AK come off the bench :p:


http://www.sltrib.com/ci_6995563?source=rss
Ask the expert: Should AK come off the bench?
By Steve Luhm
The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 09/25/2007 02:44:52 PM MDT
Posted: 1:53 PM- Question:
Would it be more beneficial for my favorite Jazz player -- Andrei Kirilenko -- to come off the bench? He would be the leader and primary weapon of the second team. He would obviously demand more minutes than the typical "second-stringier" but, in a Manu Ginobili-type of way, he would be able to take over games, get his shots and strengthen our bench by a huge amount. He would be the go-to guy in a lineup that would also include Hart/Price, Brewer/Almond, Collins/Fesenko and Millsap. Would Andrei mind doing something like that? I mean, he would be a shoe-in for the Sixth Man Award.
-- Cody, Salt Lake
Answer:
Bringing Kirilenko off the bench is an interesting idea, though I'm not sure he would be crazy about it, even if he continued getting 20-30 minutes a night.
I'm also convinced that if Kirilenko embraced his current jack-of-all-trades role on a team that includes outstanding scorers Deron Williams, Carlos Boozer and Memo Okur, he could be a huge factor as a six- or eight-point per game starter because of the variety of skills he possesses.
Scoring points does not necessarily translate into value to a team. Ask Mark Eaton. Or even John Stockton. I am convinced Stockton could have averaged 25 points a game, but it wasn't necessary for the Jazz to be successful.
Scoring points in relation to value to the team is something Kirilenko needs to understand for him to thrive in Utah -- at least while Williams, Boozer and Okur are his teammates and they stay healthy.

[WalterBenitez]

Wanna spark the bench, start Beno and 35 seconds later send TP to the court.

[Scola Trade]

Wanna spark the bench, start Beno and 35 seconds later send TP to the court.
AMEN... U D'MAN!!!!
That's the best post on this thread :clap

[timvp]

Manu should or shouldn't.....he's a bench player that finishes the game....he doesn't have the stamina nor game to be a starter day in and day out. He's better against second tier players and adds energy against their second string. That's it people....is it about balance....maybe, but there's a reason the great Pop plays him off the bench....This is a ridiculously bad take. Manu has the "game" to play against anyone, anytime, anywhere.

The reason why Manu comes off the bench is because if he doesn't, the Spurs have a horrible bench. Manu is good enough that he isn't effected by coming off the bench and can jump right in and start making play instantly.

While his minutes do need to be monitored, that isn't a huge factor in Manu coming off the bench. The Spurs need his spark and energy off the bench because without it, the bench is dead.

I've always been an advocate for Manu coming off the bench because he's just such a deadly weapon in that role. I don't see any reason to change it now.

However, if Ime Udoka can indoctrinate himself into the Spurs system fast, I'd welcome him replacing Finley in the starting lineup.

[J.T.]

IMO Ginobili would have won 6th man last year if Pop had made him come off the bench from the opening game in Dallas. He should have won it over Barbosa, but Barbosa did have a good season off the bench as well. Maybe playing in Phoenix scored him some extra votes.

[MagnusKrauss]

if it ain't broke, why fix it?

udoka has my vote for starter if he adapts to the spurs system quickly.

i think barbosa started less games than manu, which is why he won the 6th man.

----------------------

magnusdrakenkrauss

[WalterBenitez]

if it ain't broke, why fix it?

udoka has my vote for starter if he adapts to the spurs system quickly.

i think barbosa started less games than manu, which is why he won the 6th man.

----------------------

magnusdrakenkrauss

Leandrinho got 6th man prize he deserved!