Spurs To Retire Avery Johnson's Number 6

[timvp]

Timvp...will you be wearing a shirt paying tribute to his classy statements about Manu and Parker when you attend his retirement...or will you just kind of...forget about it and think it better left swept under the rug?


Wouldn't want AJ's actual words to be correctly attributed to him, now would we?

The sheep might then correctly conclude he's every bit the asshole Damon Stoudamire was...and we wouldn't want that(reality)...Grow some nvts. You sound like a female (no offense to other females, of course).

Those comments were years ago. They were said in the heat of competition. During Parker's rookie year, he spoke with AJ about what Pop expects out of his point guards. Since then, AJ has admitted that Parker is hundreds of times better than he ever was.

The only one still whining and fretting over comments made more than a half decade ago is you.

[ShoogarBear]

This is pitiful. IMHO it cheapens the honor for the other people who were more deserving.What, you mean like Johnny Moore?

[barbacoataco]

The hating on Avery is a little out of hand. He was a player who worked very hard to get better over his career. In the mid- 90's, maybe he was one of the reasons the Spurs couldn't get over the hump. But by 1999 he had worked himself into a pretty good point guard, who was able to hold his own against some other pretty good point guards.
The fact that he is now the coach of the Mavs has nothing to do with it. Don't you think he would rather have been the Spurs coach? Thankfully that job was filled. He took a great opportunity and has been a good coach. Of course I hate the Mavs and their owner, but Avery is a little off limits to me.

[timvp]

What, you mean like Johnnie Moore?Point already made and it's "Johnny".

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

timvp vs. whottt arguments give me headaches.

[ShoogarBear]

For a span of 5 years, 00 averaged 12 points, 9.5 assists and 2.5 steals per game. While his ppg average was a bit low, he also played most of those 5 years with Gervin, Mitchell and Gilmore, who were 25+, 20+ and 18+ ppg scorers, respectively during that time frame.

Heck, for that matter, why don't we argue about Silas having his number in the rafters. 8 years with the Spurs, and outside of a 16 ppg average between his ABA/NBA days, all of his other stats were below mediocre for a point guard. Averaged over 5 assists only once in his career and averaged 1 steal per game over his 8 seasons.

How is Silas statistically more deserving than Moore? I would argue that both deserve to be in the rafters based on on-court accomplishments and a high degree of sentimentality. However, AJ does not belong in their company. He was not the scorer like Silas, nor the stereotypical PG like Moore. He supposedly had heart, but since he couldn't win it either without Duncan, I personally believe he was more mouth than heart.If you're even going to try to attempt to argue Moore is more deserving than Silas based on stats, you're in deep trouble.

Hint: If you want to use stats, there are about 7-8 players who should get their numbers retired ahead of Manu.

And Silas' assist numbers are comparable with the league leaders for the era he played.

[ShoogarBear]

If you retire AJ's number you have to retire Bowen's. I would argue that Bowen had as much or more to do with three championships as AJ did with one.Only the most obtuse of Spur fans would ever argue that Bowen's number wasn't going to get retired.

[timvp]

timvp vs. whottt arguments give me headaches.This one is more like Pop, Peter Holt, David Robinson and reality vs. whottt

[picnroll]

Good thing is that, now with Manu, Parker and Duncan's success, the bar for getting your jersey has been raised and guys who were backup quality PGs won't be getting their jersey retired by the Spurs ever again.

[timvp]

Only the most obtuse of Spur fans would ever argue that Bowen's number wasn't going to get retired.Exactly.

I've seen like twenty posters in this thread think that Bowen needed the bar lowered to get his jersey retired. Bowen's place in the history of the franchise is set in stone.

Bowen has moved past Moore, AJ, Elliott and probably Silas in terms of best Spurs of all-time. I'm as big of a Sean Elliott fan as anyone but Bowen surpassed Elliott this year.

[timvp]

Good thing is that, now with Manu, Parker and Duncan's success, the bar for getting your jersey has been raised and guys who were backup quality PGs won't be getting their jersey retired by the Spurs ever again.Funny what opening the championship door does, right?

[ShoogarBear]

True, he was never that good of a player. Although considering he had barely any natural talent, he made himself into as good of a player as possible. AJ wasn't much of an athlete, wasn't fast, wasn't a born shooter and was about 5-foot-9 ... but he worked on his game and became a championship caliber point guard in 1999.What's funny is listening to the same people who bitch about AJ "arrogance" also bitch (like the rest of us) about Beno's lack of desire and fire.

Don't you realize that the reason AJ stayed in the league all those years, and is the only sub-6-footer other than Calvin Murphy to play 1000 games, is because he had what everyone wishes Beno would have?

[picnroll]

Funny what opening the championship door does, right?
Would have been opened earlier if the Spurs had had a quality PG. We've seen how Parker can open up a D. Never saw that from Avery.

[ShoogarBear]

Bowen has moved past Moore, AJ, Elliott and probably Silas in terms of best Spurs of all-time. I'm as big of a Sean Elliott fan as anyone but Bowen surpassed Elliott this year.But but but how can you say that? Did you look at Bowen's stats compared to Elliott's?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Would have been opened earlier if the Spurs had had a quality PG. We've seen how Parker can open up a D. Never saw that from Avery.

qft.

[timvp]

What's funny is listening to the same people who bitch about AJ "arrogance" also bitch (like the rest of us) about Beno's lack of desire and fire.

Don't you realize that the reason AJ stayed in the league all those years, and is the only sub-6-footer other than Calvin Murphy to play 1000 games, is because he had what everyone wishes Beno would have?Yeah, an NBA point guard has to be obnoxiously arrogant, overly self confident and self motivated to the point of being conceited. Show me an NBA point guard who doesn't have those three qualities and I'll show you a non-championship level point guard.

AJ had those three qualities. Parker has those three qualities.

AJ wasn't liked by the majority of Spurs fans when he played. He's liked even less now.

Parker has done all a 25-year-old French point guard could do and there is still a pretty big section of Spurs fans who don't like him. If there were a vote of a favorite player among Spurs fans, Parker would be lucky to finish third.

Point guards are rarely loved. Outside of the absolute greats at the position (Magic, maybe Stockton), the qualities that make a good NBA point guard also make them less popular.

[timvp]

Would have been opened earlier if the Spurs had had a quality PG. We've seen how Parker can open up a D. Never saw that from Avery.So AJ wasn't a Hall of Fame point guard like Parker has the ability to be? That's not exactly a shocking revelation.

Which attainable PG would you rather the Spurs had rather than AJ?

[whottt]

When the truth starts getting in the way of coup, the truth needs to go.


Got it...

[objective]

If there were a vote of a favorite player among Spurs fans, Parker would be lucky to finish third.

what is this based on? I don't think there's a poll out there that would have any other current player close to coming ahead of Parker to finish top 3 in a popularity contest.

[whottt]

What's funny is listening to the same people who bitch about AJ "arrogance" also bitch (like the rest of us) about Beno's lack of desire and fire.


Uh...if Beno's jersey was being retired...I'd be bitching.




Don't you realize that the reason AJ stayed in the league all those years, and is the only sub-6-footer other than Calvin Murphy to play 1000 games, is because he had what everyone wishes Beno would have?


Doesn't mean I want his jersey retired.


And sucking with desire is still sucking.

[ShoogarBear]

And sucking with desire is still sucking.Spoken like a man who's never been . . . ah, never mind.

[timvp]

I have female tendencies.

[whottt]

Q#$%Q#@$5

Who moved the should AJ's jersey be retired thread to the classics forum?

I was going to bump it.

[timvp]

Spoken like a man who's never been . . . ah, never mind.:rollin

For a second I thought he was going to go into another "mascot appeal" rant.

[timvp]

what is this based on? I don't think there's a poll out there that would have any other current player close to coming ahead of Parker to finish top 3 in a popularity contest.Check out that thread that was in the Spurs forum not too long ago asking for everyone's favorite player. Parker was listed out of the top five in most fans' list.

[picnroll]

So AJ wasn't a Hall of Fame point guard like Parker has the ability to be? That's not exactly a shocking revelation.

Which attainable PG would you rather the Spurs had rather than AJ?
"Which attainable PG would you rather the Spurs had rather than AJ?" pretty much sums up the argument for retiring Avery's jersey. He sucked but we coiuldn't get anybody else. We finally surround him with two greatest 30 of all time players, one heading for top 5 if not there, to get a title so let's retire his jersey.

[timvp]

"Which attainable PG would you rather the Spurs had rather than AJ?" pretty much sums up the argument for retiring Avery's jersey. He sucked but we coiuldn't get anybody else. We finally surround him with two greatest 30 of all time players, one heading for top 5 if not there, to get a title so let's retire his jersey.Do you have any names to suggest?

[ShoogarBear]

Uh...if Beno's jersey was being retired...I'd be bitching.
If Beno played with AJ's heart, we assuredly would be talking about retiring it someday, and you wouldn't be bitching(*).



(*)because he can hit 3-pointers

[whottt]

If Beno played with AJ's heart, we assuredly would be talking about retiring it someday, and you wouldn't be bitching(*).

Yeah...because if Beno had AJ's heart he wouldn't suck...


AJ however, did still suck even with his heart.




(*)because he can hit 3-pointers

Damn straight....you show me a Spurs team that couldn't hit threes, and I'll show you a Spurs team that didn't win a championship.






Meanwhile....the only thing AJ's heart and leadership got us on teams without Robinson...was Duncan.

[picnroll]

Do you have any names to suggest?
Should have stuck with Strickland.

[ShoogarBear]

Yeah...because if Beno had AJ's heart he wouldn't suck...


AJ however, did still suck even with his heart.
So, to recap:


AJ: sucks
Beno: sucks
Shane Heal: does not suck(*)


(*)could shoot 3-pointers

[timvp]

Damn straight....you show me a Spurs team that couldn't hit threes, and I'll show you a Spurs team that didn't win a championship. The 2001 Spurs in the playoffs shot more threes, made more threes and shot threes at a higher percentage than the 1999 Spurs in the playoffs.

Nice take. :lol

[timvp]

Should have stuck with Strickland.:lol

Strickland was the anti-AJ. He had no championship qualities whatsoever.

There's no way Strickland would have led the 1999 Spurs to a championship.

[objective]

Check out that thread that was in the Spurs forum not too long ago asking for everyone's favorite player. Parker was listed out of the top five in most fans' list.

I found this, a poll of the 05 team that had Parker in third place easily. :

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10636

The other polls I found regarding favorites were all-time lists, I'm not surprised at Parker not being top 3 or even top 5 all time.

But on any given team after 03, Parker will be top 3.

[ShoogarBear]

That's a good question: how many of you would rather have had Rod Strickland for all those years instead of AJ?

[ShoogarBear]

Rod Strickland couldn't hit threes! :madrun

[timvp]

I found this, a poll of the 05 team that had Parker in third place easily. :
Even that poll, Parker was closer to last place than he was to second place.

[whottt]

The 2001 Spurs in the playoffs shot more threes, made more threes and shot threes at a higher percentage than the 1999 Spurs in the playoffs.

Nice take. :lol


They also had Avery Johnson, getting boofed by Derek Fisher at an NBA record clip...even better take.


I didn't say shooting threes guranteed a championship, I said not being able to hit them, gurantees not winning a championship.

And if you don't think that 99 team hit some freaking threes...you just weren't watching.


Go ask LakerFan if that team could hit threes...


Better yet, just go say the words Jaren Jackson to them and see what their response is.

[whottt]

That's a good question: how many of you would rather have had Rod Strickland for all those years instead of AJ?


I'd rather Rod Strickland...


He made the jobs of the bigmen easier, he was a much better passer than AJ, he was better defender than AJ, he was a better shooter than AJ, and yes he was a better rebounder than AJ...in fact he was arguably the only guard that was both an elite passer and rebounder between the Magic and Kidd eras.

[objective]

Even that poll, Parker was closer to last place than he was to second place.

there's a difference between being closer to 4th or last than 2nd and being 'lucky to finish 3rd'

Speaking as someone who has talked to a ton of Spurs fans in person at games and about, I almost always ask them their favorite Spur, and Parker is consitantly top 3, though that's largely due to the female vote.

Even on a hardcore fan board that a small percentage of Spurs fans frequent, he was top 3 by a comfortable margin, and even that was coming off his disappearing act against the Lakers in 04.

Amongst the common people, the casual Spurs fan, the people who buy the merchandise but couldn't name a single player out of the rotation, Parker is very popular. Particularly with the women, as I wrote. Would he finish behind Duncan and Manu in an Express News poll of fans? Probably. But he wouldn't be 'lucky' to finish ahead of anyone else, including Bowen and Horry.

[timvp]

I didn't say shooting threes guranteed a championship, I said not being able to hit them, gurantees not winning a championship. Another bad take. There have been many championship teams that have won it all without relying on three-pointers. Actually, there have been more championship teams that haven't relied on threes than there have been teams who rely on it.

Another other pearls of wisdom you want to mount?

[whottt]

So, to recap:


To recap:

2004 Spurs...choked. Carter was deemed physicially unable to play.


Mercer and Heal > Hedo and Carter.

[whottt]

Another bad take. There have been many championship teams that have won it all without relying on three-pointers. Actually, there have been more championship teams that haven't relied on threes than there have been teams who rely on it.

Another other pearls of wisdom you want to mount?



I want you to name me one team since the advent of the 3 point shot, that won a title without being able to hit threes...


I can tell you right now, you can eliminate every Bulls, Spurs and Rocket team to win a title...you can also eliminate the Shaq/Kobe Lakers.


I guess that leaves you with the Showtime Lakers and Bird Celtics...


Congrats...you get me Larry and Bird or Magic Johnson to pair with Duncan...and I'll agree we don't need the three.


I know you think AJ is right there with them...that doesn't make you sane.



It's amazing that you can't tell that all of our post season failures were due to the inability to knockdown perimeter shots when opposing teams packed the paint...including the 2001 Spurs.

[picnroll]

:lol

Strickland was the anti-AJ. He had no championship qualities whatsoever.

There's no way Strickland would have led the 1999 Spurs to a championship.
Strickland had talent and could break down a D something Avery was severely lacking in. He came damn close to taking the Spurs into the finals DRob's first year.

Three years of Spurs playoffs - PPG 15.5, FG% - .483, Rebounds - 4.7, Assists PG - 9.8 A:TO 3.1:1

I'll take those over Avery's any day.

[timvp]

there's a difference between being closer to 4th or last than 2nd and being 'lucky to finish 3rd'Nine votes ahead of Rasho and 26 votes behind Manu isn't exactly a ringing endorsement of third place.

If you would feel better if I said that Parker "would always finish third" or "would at best finish third", then consider my quote changed. Although, his marriage and Finals MVP probably hurt his popularity amongst a section of Spurs fans.

My point was that point guards are rarely popular. You have to be an azz to be a good point guard. A nice guy point guard is a bad point guard.

[timvp]

I'd rather Rod Strickland...


He made the jobs of the bigmen easier, he was a much better passer than AJ, he was better defender than AJ, he was a better shooter than AJ, and yes he was a better rebounder than AJ...in fact he was arguably the only guard that was both an elite passer and rebounder between the Magic and Kidd eras.Great take.

I'm sure that instead of AJ making the team practice during the lockout, the same effect would have happened if Rocket Rod took the team clubbing during the lockout. Because, you know, Rocket Rod was all about winning.

:tu

[whottt]

AJ's toughness is over-rated too...that mofo didn't like contact. Pakrer is 10 times tougher than AJ was.


I can't think of a single time I saw AJ take it into the paint knowing he was going to get hammered...any time he saw that happening, that ball was Drob's...whether Drob had 3 guys on him, or not.

[objective]

If you would feel better if I said that Parker "would always finish third" or "would at best finish third", then consider my quote changed.

Your changed quote is correct.

[timvp]

I want you to name me one team since the advent of the 3 point shot, that won a title without being able to hit threes...Well for one, the '82 Lakers hit two three pointers during their entire playoff run. The '83 76ers hit one three pointer in their entire playoff run. Hell, even the '06 Heat only shot 32% on threes during the playoffs.

Need further debunking or you are debunked enough?

[whottt]

AJ's toughness is over-rated too...that mofo didn't like contact. Pakrer is 10 times tougher than AJ was. .


Cue timvp and Shoogar with the story about AJ going after young men in the shower as proof of his toughness...then telling me I am the guy with female tendencies.

[picnroll]

Great take.

I'm sure that instead of AJ making the team practice during the lockout, the same effect would have happened if Rocket Rod took the team clubbing during the lockout. Because, you know, Rocket Rod was all about winning.

:tu
Yeah all that AJ inspired practice had the Spurs rocketing out of the gates to start the season didn't it. Probably took Pop a few games to get things straightened out.

[whottt]

Well for one, the '82 Lakers hit two three pointers during their entire playoff run. The '83 76ers hit one three pointer in their entire playoff run. Hell, even the '06 Heat only shot 32% on threes during the playoffs.

Great...you've proven that teams with 3 HOF'ers apiece on them don't need threes...point conceded...now what that has to do with the 90's Spurs...I have no idea.




Need further debunking or you are debunked enough?


The Heat won because AJ choked...ala 99% of his Spurs career....that title belonged to us...but Pop threw the franchise under the bus for AJ...

[ShoogarBear]

True. When I think of Rod Strickland, I think of all that great playoff success the Spurs had with him.

[Willinsa]

I think it's a fucking joke his jersey is retired, its true that he did hit a winning shot to win us a championship. But remember how he skipped town when he did not like the contract he was offered and went to Dallas, fuck that little shit.

I think the Spurs jersey retiring is now open to any so-so players, and that takes away any importance it used to have.

[timvp]

Cue timvp and Shoogar with the story about AJ going after young men in the shower as proof of his toughness...then telling me I am the guy with female tendencies.You're the one who still has his/her feeling hurts about a quote more than a half decade ago that has long been forgotten.

But yeah, Shane Heal was plenty tough.

[whottt]

Hell, even the '06 Heat only shot 32% on threes during the playoffs.

Need further debunking or you are debunked enough?


Two words...Antoine Walker.


Subtract him and the Heat probably shot like 85% from 3 if they shot 32% with him.

[whottt]

You're the one who still has his/her feeling hurts about a quote more than a half decade ago that has long been forgotten.

But yeah, Shane Heal was plenty tough.


At least when Shane Heal picked a fight it was with Gary Payton and Charles Barkley...

And not Steve Nash.


Or a young boy in the shower.

[Kori Ellis]

But remember how he skipped town when he did not like the contract he was offered and went to Dallas, fuck that little shit.

Is that how you remember it?

He went to the Nuggets when the Spurs didn't offer him a contract.

[ShoogarBear]

Don't let the truth stand in the way of a good AJ hate.

[timvp]

At least when Shane Heal picked a fight it was with Gary Payton and Charles Barkley...

And not Steve Nash.So would the 1999 Spurs have won the championship with Shane Heal at point instead of Avery Johnson?

Question.

[timvp]

So would the 1999 Spurs have won the championship with Shane Heal at point instead of Avery Johnson?

Question.

:hungry: I want to see whottt tiptoe around this one.

[Kori Ellis]

I'm not a huge AJ fan. But some people are delusional about him.

He was an average point guard, who worked his ass off and had a lot of heart.

I don't care about the "clinching shot" or much other on the court stuff, but people should note that he's the Spurs all-time assist leader.

Every player who played on the Spurs in 99 will tell you that he was the guts and the drive of that team. Give Elie his due, of course, but people in the organization will name AJ first.

The Spurs organization respects him tremendously and he would probably be an assistant coach here, but Pop talked to him and they decided that Dallas would have better room for advancement.

Every organization decides what their criteria is for retiring a jersey. Two years ago it was said by several people (Pop etc) that without a doubt AJ's number would be going up. It wasn't even a question within the organization.

[whottt]

It wasn't even a question within the organization.


Yep...never a shred of doubt the Spurs were going to retire that jersey...not even when Pop was handing it to Manu(and mentioning it belonged to AJ as he was doing it).

[timvp]

:hungry: I want to see whottt tiptoe around this one.Bump.

[whottt]

:hungry: I want to see whottt tiptoe around this one.


I'll give you that AJ was better than Shane Heal...happy now?



Congrats...AJ's better than Shane Heal...a case for a retired jersey if ever there was one.

[ShoogarBear]

:hungry: I want to see whottt tiptoe around this one.If whottt tries to tackle that I will give him mad props.


















http://www.hatsinthebelfry.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/535full.jpg

[timvp]

I'll give you that AJ was better than Shane Heal...happy now?



Congrats...AJ's better than Shane Heal...a case for a retired jersey if ever there was one.Oh man, that had to hurt. I could feel whottt's pain.

I would ask if Coyote > AJ at point guard but that's too much to digest in one day.

[timvp]

I'll give you that AJ was betterSig worthy.

[ShoogarBear]

This is good. This is like doing the first few basic drills at the beginning of training camp.

[whottt]

You two fail to see the point, and you fail to see the cause of this argument...

This argument is because of AJ's jersey retirement...my entire stance is because of AJ's jersey retirement.


You don't see me claiming Brent Barry should have his jersey retired either.


Edit: And I've conceded that if you are going on mascot appeal...AJ has a fairly legitimate case, provided he stifles his dickhead side as he has been doing reecently....


It's only when the words great and lead Spurs to a title start cropping up that the arguing starts.



Seriously...

If you lined up every longtime starting PG for this team in it's history, in their primes, and allowed NBA GM's from any other team to pick them...AJ would be the last guy taken.

Parker, Silas, Strickland and Moore would all go ahead of him.

[whottt]

I'm not a huge AJ fan. I've only defended him every single time this topic has ever been discussed.


Fixed

[whottt]

I would ask if Coyote > AJ at point guard but that's too much to digest in one day.


Funny how you put that qualifier on there :lmao

[FromWayDowntown]

I do think the ceremony awaiting us on December 22 has plenty of opportunities for unplanned awkwardness. Will Spurs fans in attendance actually boo AJ? (I won't). Will they give AJ a thunderous reception? (I will).

Though I think the retirement thing has become watered down -- as illustrated in my earlier post on this subject -- I can certainly see that for several years now, AJ's honor has just been a matter of time. He certainly did have an impact on this franchise during his playing days and I think he should be well-received by Spurs fans in thanks for those efforts. Spurs fans, I'm guessing, will have a hard time forgetting the Mavericks thing, though, and I suspect there will either be a less-than-full house when the ceremony takes place, or that there will be some smattering of boos for AJ initially.

On AJ's side, will he offer deep praise for the Spurs organization and get blasted by Mavs fans who are convinced that the Spurs are nothing but a bunch of cheating, classless thugs?

The drama will be an interesting watch.

[whottt]

I do think the ceremony awaiting us on December 22 has plenty of opportunities for unplanned awkwardness. Will Spurs fans in attendance actually boo AJ? (I won't). Will they give AJ a thunderous reception? (I will).

They won't boo him and they'll probably cheer...booing would be a pretty classless thing to do. Not to mention the fact that the people that most want to go to that night, are AJ fans.





On AJ's side, will he offer deep praise for the Spurs organization and get blasted by Mavs fans who are convinced that the Spurs are nothing but a bunch of cheating, classless thugs?

The drama will be an interesting watch.


This will be the closest thing Mav Fan gets to winning a title...I doubt they'll be upset.

[ducks]

I'm not a huge AJ fan. But some people are delusional about him.

He was an average point guard, who worked his ass off and had a lot of heart.

I don't care about the "clinching shot" or much other on the court stuff, but people should note that he's the Spurs all-time assist leader.

Every player who played on the Spurs in 99 will tell you that he was the guts and the drive of that team. Give Elie his due, of course, but people in the organization will name AJ first.

The Spurs organization respects him tremendously and he would probably be an assistant coach here, but Pop talked to him and they decided that Dallas would have better room for advancement.

Every organization decides what their criteria is for retiring a jersey. Two years ago it was said by several people (Pop etc) that without a doubt AJ's number would be going up. It wasn't even a question within the organization.

tp will have more assist then aj when he is done

[FromWayDowntown]

This will be the closest thing Mav Fan gets to winning a title...I doubt they'll be upset.

Well, after raising their banner for the best 56-game stretch in the history of mankind (or whatever), the Mavs will likely set another monsterous record in the history of American sports by having the most consecutive coaches to have had their playing numbers retired by other organizations.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Good to see the AJ haters in full throat. AJ has been shaking off haters since high school. It wouldn't be right if no one was bashing him. Props :tu

I don't get why people still don't understand why AJ deserves this. He had a huge part in bringing the Spurs their first championship ... which opened the door for everything we see today. Without that first one, the dominoes don't fall the same way and this team doesn't win three more.

True, he was never that good of a player. Although considering he had barely any natural talent, he made himself into as good of a player as possible. AJ wasn't much of an athlete, wasn't fast, wasn't a born shooter and was about 5-foot-9 ... but he worked on his game and became a championship caliber point guard in 1999.

It's laughable when people try to say someone else (for example Mario Elie) was more of an emotional leader for the Spurs during the 1999 season. AJ was far and away the emotional leader. Moreso than Elie. Moreso than Pop. Moreso than anyone you want to name on the Spurs.

During the lockout, AJ was the one who got all the players together and had them working practicing. When the Spurs started off slowly, Pop threw away his offense and let AJ install a new offense. During the rest of the season, AJ was the one who kept everyone in line. During the playoffs, he was the one who never let the Spurs stop believing that some small quiet town in the middle of nowhere could be the home of NBA champions.

I oftentimes say AJ invented Spurs Basketball and I still hold that as true. Spurs fans take for granted how everyone in the Spurs organization only cares about winning championships. That environment didn't create itself.

He also helped Pop become the coach he is today. In fact, AJ was more of the coach of the 1999 team than Pop was. It was his offense the Spurs ran. When scouting other teams, AJ would often get the last call on what defense the Spurs would run.

As far as his number retirement goes, he more than deserves it. As a fan, all I care about is championships. I don't care if you lead the league in assists or have commercials or win the MVP. The only thing I hope for as a fan is a championship. And AJ was a huge, huge part of the first championship.

Without AJ, the Spurs don't win the 1999 championship. A more talented point guard wouldn't have been enough. As Spurs fans, we should be able to tell by now that championships aren't won with talent alone. You need the drive, the wisdom, the determination and the belief. AJ had that in abundance.

I remain thankful today for all AJ has done for the team I root for. He helped carry this franchise from annual pretender to annual contender. Other Spurs fans might dislike AJ or think that his jersey shouldn't have been retired, that's find and it's your right as a fan. But just know that every time you celebrate a championship, you are celebrating the winning culture that AJ had a huge part in founding.

Thank you, AJ. You helped us all Believe.


You can say whatver you want its America after all.

Avery Johnson in 7 straight seasons with the Spurs practiced hard enough to be able to hit a 15 footer from that left side of the floor consistently for one season and becaseu of that he was not enough of a liability so that we could win the Championship.

We won that 99 Championship because we had the best frontcourt assembled that the game has ever seen.

For 94-98 Avery Johnson and his leadership culminated in a reputation of a soft team and repeatedly getting our asses handed to us by Utah in the playoffs. Funny how Duncan arrives and Spurs basketball comes about but its AJ who invented it? Give me a fucking break.

His leadership style consisted of being an asshole which is a byproduct of military style leadership which was given creedence tbecause of our militaries success in WWII. 50 years and a couple failed military 'engagements' and noone wants to be yelled at by some asshole that cannot put his money where his mouth is.

Guys like Robinson listen to that horseshit because the Navy taught him to. Apparently, Malik Rose told Johnson what he could do with his 'leadership' so Johnson attacked him in the shower. Real leadership there. :rolleyes

And furthermore you claim that Johnson's leadership was 'necessary' but weve been missing the club asshole for the last several years and have a few championships to show for it. i wonder how we did that without Johnson and his 'leadership.'

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Is that how you remember it?

He went to the Nuggets when the Spurs didn't offer him a contract.

But why would Pop and Buford do that if his toughness, leadership and shooting were so integral to our success.

And those games against Nash that you keep on touting as a sign of his clutchness i would love to see the shot chart for those games cause I bet you money I know exactly where the majority of those made shots were coming from.

Jordan shooting from there when double teamed is impressive anyone else doing it while wide open because people are doubling off of him to defend that frontcourt not so much.

[whottt]

But why would Pop and Buford do that if his toughness, leadership and shooting were so integral to our success.


And with nary a peep from Duncan and Robinson...


And you know something else?

When the Spurs played the Sonics and Duncan was facing off against his friend AD...Duncan was being a giant puss.


When the Spurs faced off against AJ and the Mavs, I have never seen Duncan want it more, play harder, or be more mean about it...except maybe against LeBron in this past years finals.


This past season they had Drob on an interview for Mike and Mike and Drob flat out said AJ would get on his nerves...and they are best friends...and DRob is a thousand times more likely to put up with that crap than Duncan.

[whottt]

The fact is the Spurs were trying to dump AJ long before they decided not to resign him...


Just because Pop likes hte guy doesn't mean he's all that.....see Brown, Larry.

[ducks]

I want to know who the spurs leader is now that aj is not a spur anymore
for those that are saying aj was reason for the one title with david

tp instead of aj I bet spurs with david would win more titles

[Willinsa]

I seriously think by retiring his jersey if you look at his OVERALL numbers we are lowering the bar even more to any former spur. Whose next Malik Rose?

[ShoogarBear]

I seriously think by retiring his jersey if you look at his OVERALL numbers we are lowering the bar even more to any former spur. Whose next Malik Rose?What about Bruce's overall numbers?

[whottt]

Damn...for years and years there was a link to the fight between Malik and AJ on an old ESPN Web Page...and now it's gone.


Was pretty revealing...not only the reasons behind the fight, but also the fact that the Spurs were definitely trying to trade AJ for anything they could get...just to get him off the team.


The funniest part was the quote from a team member that the fight resembled the worst parts of a Roman Orgy :lmao

There was speculation that only Sean Elliott would have made that quote.

[Das Texan]

Well that now means that the following will now be retired:

21 (no shit)
20
9
12
bottle of wine


did i miss anything?

[SenorSpur]

Damn...for years and years there was a link to the fight between Malik and AJ on an old ESPN Web Page...and now it's gone.


Was pretty revealing...not only the reasons behind the fight, but also the fact that the Spurs were definitely trying to trade AJ for anything they could get...just to get him off the team.


The funniest part was the quote from a team member that the fight resembled the worst parts of a Roman Orgy :lmao

There was speculation that only Sean Elliott would have made that quote.

What were the reasons behind the fight?

[ShoogarBear]

What were the reasons behind the fight?Whether AJ or Malik deserved their numbers retired.

[curtismedellin]

the only reason "aj" is getting his jersey retired is because he had a cute accent and was a great quote for the local media. did this guy even live in SA? he doesn't desrve a retired number. and yes i will boo.

OVERRATED!!!!!!!! (clap clap clap clap clap) OVERRATED!!!!!!!!!!

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Damn...for years and years there was a link to the fight between Malik and AJ on an old ESPN Web Page...and now it's gone.


Was pretty revealing...not only the reasons behind the fight, but also the fact that the Spurs were definitely trying to trade AJ for anything they could get...just to get him off the team.


The funniest part was the quote from a team member that the fight resembled the worst parts of a Roman Orgy :lmao

There was speculation that only Sean Elliott would have made that quote.

i know for a fact that the Spurs Fo tried to cover it up. The amount of pull the Spurs have with the local media is amazing. O'keefe for example is blackballed here.

But I remember Harvey or someone making an article on the subject the day that it happened and that article was pulled off the site within a matter of hours.

I got a ton of shit over at SR because of it but all that told me was that Johnson was an asshole and a coward.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

What were the reasons behind the fight?

it wsa the year after the championship and the Spur were not playing well. Johnson had completely gone in the toilet and was still getting in peoples faces even though he was playing the most shitty of all.

Malik told him to go get fucked and i guess Johnson didnt like that.

[whottt]

i know for a fact that the Spurs Fo tried to cover it up. The amount of pull the Spurs have with the local media is amazing. O'keefe for example is blackballed here.

But I remember Harvey or someone making an article on the subject the day that it happened and that article was pulled off the site within a matter of hours.

I got a ton of shit over at SR because of it but all that told me was that Johnson was an asshole and a coward.


Pretty sure the article is still available on the ESPN Insider Archives...it was on a webpage that was the precursor for ESPN Insider and they probably finally got around to moving it.



I actually don't know if Insider has archives, but I definitely know it was an ESPN Insider type article.

[whottt]

i know for a fact that the Spurs Fo tried to cover it up. The amount of pull the Spurs have with the local media is amazing. O'keefe for example is blackballed here.

But I remember Harvey or someone making an article on the subject the day that it happened and that article was pulled off the site within a matter of hours.

I got a ton of shit over at SR because of it but all that told me was that Johnson was an asshole and a coward.


And by the way...that's exactly the reason you will never hear a Spur or anyone connected with them say a bad word about this retirement...becuase they keep that stuff in house....

And Don Harris flat out put them on the spot with it.....it was a total heist.


The fact that Pop mentioned it was AJ's jersey as he was handing it to Manu tells you their true intentions...they definitely knew it was AJ's jersey...and they definitely weren't planning on retiring it...

[duncan228]

And by the way...that's exactly the reason you will never hear a Spur or anyone connected with them say a bad word about this retirement...becuase they keep that stuff in house....

One of the reasons I love this team.
Shit happens. Keep it behind closed doors.
Show a Team front to us.

[Hemotivo]

The fact that Pop mentioned it was AJ's jersey as he was handing it to Manu tells you their true intentions...they definitely knew it was AJ's jersey...and they definitely weren't planning on retiring it...
Exactly
:reading

[DontHatethePlayer]

[QUOTE=whottt]They won't boo him and they'll probably cheer...booing would be a pretty classless thing to do. Not to mention the fact that the people that most want to go to that night, are AJ fans.

I agree with Whottt that the Spurs fans will probably cheer for him, although I'm not sure that they will give him the "thunderous applause" that FWD thinks he deserves. I should certainly hope, though, that Spurs fans don't stoop to Avery's level and act "classless" by booing him.

I understand that Avery may have had some contributions during his time as a Spurs player (and even as a coach), but it is hard to separate the man from the player. I have problems with the man. His behavior has not impressed me in the least bit, particularly in the past couple of years. The man has no loyalty and no appreciation for where he came from. With that being said, I'm not sure his manhood is one of the qualifications for having his jersey retired. So go ahead Avery, enjoy your moment however you fanagled your way into it.

If nothing else, maybe Avery will learn a little something about class during the ceremony that he can take home. We can always hope can't we? :spin

[SequSpur]

You can say whatver you want its America after all.

Avery Johnson in 7 straight seasons with the Spurs practiced hard enough to be able to hit a 15 footer from that left side of the floor consistently for one season and becaseu of that he was not enough of a liability so that we could win the Championship.

We won that 99 Championship because we had the best frontcourt assembled that the game has ever seen.

For 94-98 Avery Johnson and his leadership culminated in a reputation of a soft team and repeatedly getting our asses handed to us by Utah in the playoffs. Funny how Duncan arrives and Spurs basketball comes about but its AJ who invented it? Give me a fucking break.

His leadership style consisted of being an asshole which is a byproduct of military style leadership which was given creedence tbecause of our militaries success in WWII. 50 years and a couple failed military 'engagements' and noone wants to be yelled at by some asshole that cannot put his money where his mouth is.

Guys like Robinson listen to that horseshit because the Navy taught him to. Apparently, Malik Rose told Johnson what he could do with his 'leadership' so Johnson attacked him in the shower. Real leadership there. :rolleyes

And furthermore you claim that Johnson's leadership was 'necessary' but weve been missing the club asshole for the last several years and have a few championships to show for it. i wonder how we did that without Johnson and his 'leadership.'

Fuckin A Exactly!

[SequSpur]

I fucking own this argument. I posted 3 items in this mofo and none of you can rebut shit on it....

BTW, Rod Strickland sucked.

[ShoogarBear]

Ba-low me.

[ducks]

the reason for the fight was rosE SAID aj sucked and aj took issues with the truth

[SequSpur]

Ba-low me.

owned.

[SequSpur]

the reason for the fight was rosE SAID aj sucked and aj took issues with the truth

WGAF about that.. players fight... Malik Rose sucked balls also. The folks arguing for AJ's number to be retired are the same folks that said Malik was an Allstar in the eastern conference.

Malik got less playing time on a shitty eastern team than he did with the Spurs.

WTF?

[ShoogarBear]

owned.Did you ever actually get around to seeing a game last year, or were they always conflicting with Shuffleboard Night?

[SequSpur]

Did you ever actually get around to seeing a game last year, or were they always conflicting with Shuffleboard Night?

Yeah, I watched a few of those french boy taking over a man's game games...

Every time Parker plays he buries Johnson's jersey another foot into the ground.

Avery sucks.

[DontHatethePlayer]

Did you ever actually get around to seeing a game last year, or were they always conflicting with Shuffleboard Night?

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

[SequSpur]

I don't even consider that he is coaching the Mavs, I look at it as he was a gravy training lucky mofo to have played with Duncan and Robinson.

The Spurs were active every day trying to replace or sign a better point guard. He was the fucking weak link on the whole team. Period. Exclamation mark.

As soon as, I mean as soon as Parker got here and destroyed Avery in practice, Avery was fucking gone! Gone! uhhh.. did I say gone?! yeah.. gone.....

how simple does the shit get? Avery hit a wide open few footer to win a game... how many of those fucking shots did he miss? tons........ Fuck, it was so wide open, there wasn't a player on the same side of the court... They didn't even guard him, he was the player that they left to double team a big.

Seriously, are you that blind? Because he said a team prayer and he talked funny, he gets his jersey retired? There are 5 current players at least! that deserve their jersey to be retired if his ass is getting it..........

It has nothing to do with Dallas or his big mouth. His on the court play and his off the court bullshit was overrated. Look at the poll, its overwhelming that spurs fan could give a shit about him.

It's all about David and Tim and now Manu, Tony and Tim... He doesn't even a equate on the got damn scale... What the fuck am I missing?

Cuz he got some assists to the two of the best players ever to play the game? How in the shit does he benefit from that? He was dumped for an 18 year old french kid from another country who had never played nba ball.

WTF does that tell you? It's not even an argument, is so got damn blatant, I don't see how anyone could say he deserves this? for his play? uh hell no... cuz he could say the lord's prayer in a twangy voice? uh yeah probably...

AJ is overrated.

[SequSpur]

End of discussion.

[ShoogarBear]

So, do you find that a low angle of approach is better for knocking the other guys' puck out of the triangle zone?

[SequSpur]

So, do you find that a low angle of approach is better for knocking the other guys' puck out of the triangle zone?

Note to self....

changing the topic means owned.

:reading

[ShoogarBear]

I was just trying to keep things in your areas of expertise.

Maybe you can tell us how you pick out your cards on Bingo Night.

[ShoogarBear]

:lol Just joshing wit you, dude. Welcome back to the bandwagon.

I guess you heard: The Spurs won the title again last year! :elephant :elephant

[whottt]

I fucking own this argument. I posted 3 items in this mofo and none of you can rebut shit on it....

.

Um...



Tony Parker a second round pick

I wasn't rebutting you because there's no such thing as bad AJ hate...however since you got all AJ about it....

[sandman]

If you're even going to try to attempt to argue Moore is more deserving than Silas based on stats, you're in deep trouble.

Hint: If you want to use stats, there are about 7-8 players who should get their numbers retired ahead of Manu.

And Silas' assist numbers are comparable with the league leaders for the era he played.

Was not attempting to argue that at all.

Someone a few hundred posts back was attempting to argue that AJ was just as deserving as Jr. I was merely pointing out the statistical difference between the two, adding on a question as to why they were only comparing the deservedness of AJ to Moore and not to Silas. I hope I made the point that statistically, both Silas and Moore were well beyond the talent level of AJ; ergo, there should not even be the comparison discussion. Throw in the careers cut short factor into what could have been accomplished by those two, and it's a bit ludicrous to attempt to put AJ in their class from a skill perspective.

[whottt]

Throw in the careers cut short factor into what could have been accomplished by those two, and it's a bit ludicrous to attempt to put AJ in their class from a skill perspective.


IF you're an AJ fan, anyone and everyone is mere fodder in the cause of elevating AJ...of course they'll trample a cripple in the process...just like AJ bullied young players in the shower...fascism...at it's finest.


Aj pisses on the Alamo? It's the Alamo's fault.


AJ wants your sister...you should give her up on a silver platter and consider yourself lucky AJ is interested in her...then STFU.

That is the mindset of the AJ fan. He can do no wrong...any lie is better than the truth as long as it protects AJ and gets that jersey retired....

[timvp]

I do think the ceremony awaiting us on December 22 has plenty of opportunities for unplanned awkwardness. Will Spurs fans in attendance actually boo AJ? (I won't). Will they give AJ a thunderous reception? (I will).

Though I think the retirement thing has become watered down -- as illustrated in my earlier post on this subject -- I can certainly see that for several years now, AJ's honor has just been a matter of time. He certainly did have an impact on this franchise during his playing days and I think he should be well-received by Spurs fans in thanks for those efforts. Spurs fans, I'm guessing, will have a hard time forgetting the Mavericks thing, though, and I suspect there will either be a less-than-full house when the ceremony takes place, or that there will be some smattering of boos for AJ initially.

On AJ's side, will he offer deep praise for the Spurs organization and get blasted by Mavs fans who are convinced that the Spurs are nothing but a bunch of cheating, classless thugs?

The drama will be an interesting watch.San Antonio has class. Maybe if it were during a Mavs game, fans might get emotional and boo. But most sane Spurs fans realize AJ has helped the Spurs along their journey to four championships in nine seasons.

[timvp]

His leadership style consisted of being an asshole which is a byproduct of military style leadership which was given creedence tbecause of our militaries success in WWII. 50 years and a couple failed military 'engagements' and noone wants to be yelled at by some asshole that cannot put his money where his mouth is.

Guys like Robinson listen to that horseshit because the Navy taught him to. :dizzy

I'm glad this guy isn't on my side of an argument.

[ShoogarBear]

Was not attempting to argue that at all.

Someone a few hundred posts back was attempting to argue that AJ was just as deserving as Jr. I was merely pointing out the statistical difference between the two, adding on a question as to why they were only comparing the deservedness of AJ to Moore and not to Silas. I hope I made the point that statistically, both Silas and Moore were well beyond the talent level of AJ; ergo, there should not even be the comparison discussion. Throw in the careers cut short factor into what could have been accomplished by those two, and it's a bit ludicrous to attempt to put AJ in their class from a skill perspective.I think that lumping Moore and Silas into the same skill level is equally ludicrous.

In fact, I'll go one step further: If Moore wasn't a UT alum, his number would never have been retired.

[timvp]

And you know something else?

When the Spurs played the Sonics and Duncan was facing off against his friend AD...Duncan was being a giant puss.


When the Spurs faced off against AJ and the Mavs, I have never seen Duncan want it more, play harder, or be more mean about it...except maybe against LeBron in this past years finals.First of all, this is a poor attempt at a take.

Second of all, Duncan and AD were first. AJ was Duncan's leader. Big difference.

As long as you bring up AD ... AD is also a good example of how being talented isn't enough. AD is a thousand times more talented than AJ. AD has every physical ability needed to be a dominant point guard.

But AD is too nice of a guy. He isn't a leader. He isn't self motivated. Basically, he isn't an azzhole. And what does that make him? A non-championship caliber point guard.

You can have AD quarterback your team ... or Rod Strickland for that matter. I'll take a winner like AJ or Billups or Cassell or any other championship level point guard whose critics claim are too selfish or too self absorbed.

[whottt]

In fact, I'll go one step further: If Moore wasn't a UT alum, his number would never have been retired.

What's with the Moore hate?

His number is up there because of a tragic end to his career...


And the truth is, that dude would have owned the Spurs assist records if not for that disease. He never even hit his prime. I don't think Parker would have beaten his career marks had he had the typical prime and decline of an NBA guard.

[whottt]

First of all, this is a poor attempt at a take.

Second of all, Duncan and AD were first. AJ was Duncan's leader. Big difference.

As long as you bring up AD ... AD is also a good example of how being talented isn't enough. AD is a thousand times more talented than AJ. AD has every physical ability needed to be a dominant point guard.

But AD is too nice of a guy. He isn't a leader. He isn't self motivated. Basically, he isn't an azzhole. And what does that make him? A non-championship caliber point guard.

You can have AD quarterback your team ... or Rod Strickland for that matter. I'll take a winner like AJ or Billups or Cassell or any other championship level point guard whose critics claim are too selfish or too self absorbed.



Eh....I'm not a big fan of AD either...although to his credit...he was the only mofo'n shooter that didn't choke against LA in 01. Unfortunately, he followed that up with a huge choke against LA in 02.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

San Antonio has class. Maybe if it were during a Mavs game, fans might get emotional and boo. But most sane Spurs fans realize AJ has helped the Spurs along their journey to four championships in nine seasons.

Sorry but the majority of your reasoning to support Johnson is sentimental bullshit. But youre the sane one.... :rolleyes

[timvp]

The fact is the Spurs were trying to dump AJ long before they decided not to resign him...It was time for AJ to move on. It's true that the Spurs tried to trade him as soon as 2000.

But there are reasons behind that. First of all, him being basically the head coach undermined Pop's effectiveness going forward. Second of all, the Spurs knew that for Duncan to grow into a leadership role, they'd have to get rid of AJ. No one else was becoming a leader on a team with AJ on it. Third of all, AJ was getting old and his skills were eroding.

I had no problem with AJ leaving. He left on relatively decent terms considering it was pretty soon after leading the Spurs to a championship. It was just time.

And like me and you bet (which you later reneged on per usual), I told you the Spurs would one day try to bring him back in. The Spurs tried to bring him back in for I believe the 2004 season to be a player/coach. If there was any animosity between Pop or Duncan and AJ, that wouldn't have happened.

[timvp]

i know for a fact that the Spurs Fo tried to cover it up. The amount of pull the Spurs have with the local media is amazing. O'keefe for example is blackballed here.

But I remember Harvey or someone making an article on the subject the day that it happened and that article was pulled off the site within a matter of hours.That's a bold faced lie.

After the game, the locker room was a mess. Reporters asked what happened and everyone said Pop went crazy because they lost. It was months later that it came out that it was actually a fight between AJ and Rose.

Say goodbye to your credibility.

[sandman]

I think that lumping Moore and Silas into the same skill level is equally ludicrous.

In fact, I'll go one step further: If Moore wasn't a UT alum, his number would never have been retired.

I think in my attempt to recreate some of the faulty logic being espoused to make my own point, I gave the impression that Silas=Moore. My point was not to say that Silas=Moore, but rather that Silas/Moore>AJ. I was not attempting to compare the two to each other, but each to AJ.

As for Jr, going 5 straight years being less than half an assist away from averaging a double-double is not a trivial accomplishment. As I stated before, make the man's career 10 years instead of 5 years, and a double-double from a PG should be something that places him in the conversation.

As far as the UT thing, he was not a local kid; he was from Pennsylvania I think. I would venture that the Desert Fever swayed the sentimental vote much more than being a UT grad.

[timvp]

it wsa the year after the championship and the Spur were not playing well. Johnson had completely gone in the toilet and was still getting in peoples faces even though he was playing the most shitty of all.

Malik told him to go get fucked and i guess Johnson didnt like that.Again, not accurate.

AJ called a play. Malik thought he had an advantage in the post so he wanted to break the play. They got into it a little on the court and then after the game they went at it again.

[timvp]

And by the way...that's exactly the reason you will never hear a Spur or anyone connected with them say a bad word about this retirement...becuase they keep that stuff in house....

And Don Harris flat out put them on the spot with it.....it was a total heist.


The fact that Pop mentioned it was AJ's jersey as he was handing it to Manu tells you their true intentions...they definitely knew it was AJ's jersey...and they definitely weren't planning on retiring it...Are you really this naive? You think Pop would be forced by the media to do anything he didn't want to do? Seriously?

If Pop wanted to end the Don Harris talk, he would have just snapped his fingers to get Harris to STFU. Manu got number six because that was the number he wore. They didn't give it to him to spite AJ or something.

Bottomline is if Pop wasn't on board with retiring AJ's number, it wouldn't be getting retired. He could have gotten Harris to STFU about retiring the number and it would have disappeared within a couple days. Pop controls this town ... not Don Harris :lol

[ShoogarBear]

What's with the Moore hate? Me saying he's got a weak case for his number being retire != "hate".


His number is up there because of a tragic end to his career...
And because he's a UT alum.

Mike Mitchell and Larry Kenon obliterate Moore in terms of what they did for the Spurs, and Terry Cummings is about equal. And they will never get up there apparently.


And the truth is, that dude would have owned the Spurs assist records if not for that disease. He never even hit his prime. I don't think Parker would have beaten his career marks had he had the typical prime and decline of an NBA guard.Moore was an even worse jump shooter than AJ. And isn't that what everyone's been slamming AJ for, when they talk about him on the court?

[timvp]

In fact, I'll go one step further: If Moore wasn't a UT alum, his number would never have been retired.Exactly.

If Moore went to Duke, no one would have thought about retiring 00. If Larry Kenon or Mike Mitchell went to UT, they'd have their jerseys retired.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

:dizzy

I'm glad this guy isn't on my side of an argument.

You do realize that the majority of that leadership style comes from a military influence on American culture? The US Army has courses dedicated to the tough fiery get in your face asshole routine and has had it for quite some time.

Following WW2 there was a lot of creedence given to that style of leadership for obvious reasons and it resulted in guys like Lombardi, Bryant, Halas, and Landry. Perhaps you have heard of them?

Those guys were the role model on how to coach in sports and you can see it in the future generations.

The problem is that following the debacle in Vietnam and the massive cultural changes that took place because of that, kids born in the mid 70s and onward were no longer taught to appreciate that type of approach. The Pattons of the world were replaced by Magic Johnson as role models.

Avery Johnson is of that old leadership variety and it is no surprise that guys like David Robinson bought into that but its also a type of leadership that most people dont respond to because most people arent inspired by someone being an asshole to them.

Youre the one talking about how great of a leader Johnson was and im explaining to you why Johnsons leadership style is dated and shitty. Even Pop doesnt ride everyones ass all the time and knows to treat people as individuals. Hes got more than just the asshole face to inspire with.

I think you take Robinsons appreciation of Johnson's leadership a little to far and im trying to give perspective.

[whottt]

Bottomline is if Pop wasn't on board with retiring AJ's number, it wouldn't be getting retired. He could have gotten Harris to STFU about retiring the number and it would have disappeared within a couple days. Pop controls this town ... not Don Harris :lol


Pop controls it 99% of the time...


Pop has gotten owned by media initiated fan movements previously though....

Once when he tried to take on Drob...of course DRob also had a lot to do with that...but the mere mention of him leaving was a battle Pop could never hope to win.

And the second was when that stuff with AJ happened...it was instant...like right after the Press Conference...


No, if Pop had wanted AJ's jersey retired...Manu would have never been given that jersey in the first place...no matter how you slice it, the Spurs came off looking stupid.


Pop learned his lesson from when he tried to tangle with DRob and just said eff it...damage control.


Just like right now...they are retiring his jersey just to get it the hell over with...they know it's becoming unretirable and they have already made the commitment...


You, Mr. VP, know it is becoming unretirable.

[ShoogarBear]

Youre the one talking about how great of a leader Johnson was and im explaining to you why Johnsons leadership style is dated and shitty. Even Pop doesnt ride everyones ass all the time and knows to treat people as individuals. Hes got more than just the asshole face to inspire with.
Clearly, this explains his utter failures and numerous player complaints with the Mavs.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

That's a bold faced lie.

After the game, the locker room was a mess. Reporters asked what happened and everyone said Pop went crazy because they lost. It was months later that it came out that it was actually a fight between AJ and Rose.

Say goodbye to your credibility.

to be honest i could give a hit if you dont think im credible. i remember reading the article on the express news website at the time it happened and they took it down within hours. i remeber it distinctly. if you dont believe me its not like im going to lose sleep over it.

I remember dizz and the gestapo calling me a liar about it at the time as well.

oh well.

and another thing its not as if what i said and your specifics are mutually exclusive. Johsnon was on Roses ass for making a mistake and Rose didnt 'appreciate' Johnsons leadership so he fucking attacked him in the shower.

Excuse me if i think thats the act of a desperate coward.

[timvp]

Pop controls it 99% of the time...


Pop has gotten owned by media initiated fan movements previously though....

Once when he tried to take on Drob...Did you just try to compare Don Harris to David Robinson :lmao

If Pop wants the media to STFU about something, they'll STFU. To try to say a member of the media strong armed Pop into doing something he didn't want to do is both naive and shortchanging Pop for the power he holds.

Don Harris = David Robinson might be worse than Coyote > DRob.

[ShoogarBear]

I think in my attempt to recreate some of the faulty logic being espoused to make my own point, I gave the impression that Silas=Moore. My point was not to say that Silas=Moore, but rather that Silas/Moore>AJ. I was not attempting to compare the two to each other, but each to AJ.

As for Jr, going 5 straight years being less than half an assist away from averaging a double-double is not a trivial accomplishment. As I stated before, make the man's career 10 years instead of 5 years, and a double-double from a PG should be something that places him in the conversation.

As far as the UT thing, he was not a local kid; he was from Pennsylvania I think. I would venture that the Desert Fever swayed the sentimental vote much more than being a UT grad.Look, I like Johnny Moore, and his assist numbers were impressive (although it was an era of high scoring when assist totals really started their uptick). But he was never going to ever come close to sniffing an All-Star game or All-NBA squad.

If he had played another 5 years with the Spurs, no one would be questioning his credentials, and sure the Desert Fever gave him some sentiment, but given who isn't up there who should be slam-dunk no-brainers (Mitchell, Kenon), I have to conclude that the Longhorn Factor is an overriding aspect.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Clearly, this explains his utter failures and numerous player complaints with the Mavs.

i dont care enough to pay attention to what goes on in the Mavs locker room. All i know is they choke.

Thats actually another downfall to that style of leadership: if you lose then it gets old really really fast.

[timvp]

to be honest i could give a hit if you dont think im credible. i remember reading the article on the express news website at the time it happened and they took it down within hours. i remeber it distinctly. if you dont believe me its not like im going to lose sleep over it.
I would believe you ... except that never happened.

[timvp]

Mike Mitchell and Larry Kenon obliterate Moore in terms of what they did for the Spurs

:madrun You stole my take.



But yeah, Johnny Moore was pretty decent but comparing him to Mitchell or Kenon is laughable. You ask anyone of that era to rate those three players and Moore would always be last.

Moore is a good guy who went to UT and got his career shortened by an illness. It was definitely a tragic story but that doesn't mean his jersey should have been retired. His best years the Spurs were sub-.500 teams. He put up comparably numbers to AJ, while AJ played in a league with a slower pace and more defense played.

00 is the number to be outraged about if a Spurs fan wants to be outraged. Not 6 ... unless a Spurs fan doesn't appreciate championships or the environment of winning being > everything that the Spurs have today.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I would believe you ... except that never happened.

i wouldnt remember it so vividly if it wasnt for the fact that i got roasted over it by DizzG and those guys over at SR.com. I was actually concerned that you guys were going to say i just made up the fight like they did. i didnt even know ESPN had something on it later.

Like i said i dont care if you dont believe me. I know what i know and that is that Johnson attacked a naked man in the shower because somone wasnt respecting his authority.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Paper: San Antonio Express-News
Title: Little General determined to close ranks this year
Date: August 27, 2000

Spurs guard Avery Johnson experienced a 1999 season that was a lot like his favorite dish - hot and spicy gumbo.
Johnson, perhaps the fans' favorite Spur, is the team's on-court leader. But the leadership role brought a little too much fire into Johnson's life last season.

Former Spur Chucky Brown blamed the little guard for getting him benched. Brown went so far as to say that one Spur was a snake in the grass - and there was little doubt which Spur he meant.

Johnson, a man who spent years improving his game and working his way into a starting job, met this topic head on.

"You know, this type of thing goes back a long way," Johnson said. "There were bad things said about Magic (Johnson), about John (Stockton), about Isiah (Thomas). They were all people in leadership positions. If you've been in the league for 12 years and you're in a leadership position, you have to do what's right for the club.

"We are paid to try to win titles, not to keep guys around who can't help you win. So if they call me, ask my opinion, I can say, 'Yes, we're OK,' or I can tell the truth. You tell the truth or relinquish your role as leader.

"But if after 12 years in the league, I get criticized by a guy like Chucky Brown, it's not that bad.''

Not long after the Brown incident, Johnson and teammate Malik Rose came close to exchanging blows in the locker room after a loss in Cleveland. Johnson apparently was upset that Rose had glared at him after the Spurs gave up a basket during the game.

Johnson carried the slight off the court, where he complained he wasn't getting enough respect.

"I'm sorry that that got out of the locker room. I was disappointed it got out,'' Johnson said. "But I would think if that were a serious problem and the Spurs weren't happy with it, I wouldn't be back here now. But they brought me back with a serious contract.

"I was just focused on doing my job. My first few years back here, I was more concerned about keeping everybody happy. I was not mature then, not confident in my abilities.

"Now, I won't have a situation that undermines my role. I have to handle it."

Rose and Johnson apparently have patched their differences.

"Yeah, if not, I would have body-slammed him when we were together at the women's basketball game the other night,'' Johnson said with a laugh.

All was not so happy last season, when the Spurs discussed dealing Johnson before the trading deadline. They had talks with the Clippers involving Derek Anderson (now Johnson's backcourt mate in San Antonio), talks with the Hornets regarding David Wesley, and may have dangled him to the Denver Nuggets.

So what happened this off-season? The Spurs signed Johnson to a one-year, $8 million pact.

"That's just the nature of the business,'' Johnson said. "Plus, if you are never considered as trade bait, it probably means you're not being considered at all by anybody.

"You know, there are guys like Tim (Duncan) and David (Robinson), guys considered untouchable. You aren't going to trade them. Then there are guys who just don't have a lot of trade value.

"Then, there's the rest of us. Sometimes you might be overestimated by another team and/or underestimated by your own team.''

Johnson has had his time of being considered unmovable, certainly underestimated. He moved around for six years before settling here for the last time in 1994.

He played through seasons of nonguaranteed and/or minimum deals until Coach Gregg Popovich signed him for three years in '94.

Another three-year deal followed, this one averaging more than $3 million per season, and Johnson suddenly was a wealthy man. He then justified it by helping the team to its first title.

Then came the $8 million deal.

"Years ago, I wasn't thinking I'd one day make this much money,'' he said. "I was more thinking that I just wanted to become a starter and then, if I had success, to be paid like guys at that position.

"The Spurs have always kept me in position to be successful. Pop said money would follow if I worked and became successful. He kept his word.''

[email protected]

Copyright 2000 San Antonio Express-News

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Paper: San Antonio Express-News
Title: One of a Kind
Spurs' Johnson a unique, special player
Date: April 22, 2000

The first time you saw Avery Johnson throw up that line-drive knuckleball, you wondered how he made it to the NBA in the first place.
Then you saw him mature into a floor leader.

Last June, against all odds, he tossed in the title-winning 18-footer against the New York Knicks.

The next thing we knew, the Spurs were floating down the San Antonio River with some pretty impressive NBA hardware in tow.

Watching A.J. from afar, and then seeing him up close this season, my opinion of the fiery little guard has changed.

In this business, you don't allow yourself to become overly impressed with the people you cover because the day will come when the pedestal breaks.

Mike Ditka once said that the main aim of sports media is to erect heroes for the purpose of tearing them down. There is a shard of truth to that.

I have witnessed the rise, and I've witnessed the fall of many great sports people.

But I've never seen anybody as funny, witty, wild, nutty, vocal, wide-eyed and evangelical as Avery Johnson.

Without the power of persuasion, Avery Johnson wouldn't be where he is today - defending an NBA title.

And without him, the Spurs wouldn't be where they are right now - 15 wins from another ring.

Someone asked A.J. the other night what he had done to inspire the 12-point comeback against Vancouver. He blurted, "I said the Lord's prayer."

Actually, Lord's was "Low-erd's" and prayer was "pray-yer."

Either way, I believed him.

With Avery in the pulpit, you can close your eyes and imagine a hot and sticky night beneath a revival tent somewhere in the Mississippi Delta. You want to say, "Amen, brother" and shout "Hallelujah."

The sermons are infectious. He has been delivering them for the last six seasons in San Antonio, and it seems that folks still listen.

For example:

When the Spurs embarrassed themselves in Cleveland after the All-Star break, he tore into his teammates. From the shower, he continued to exhale fire and brimstone. Spurs players delegated David Robinson to wade into the hot water and cool down the agitated Avery.

Robinson didn't want the assignment, but accepted anyway, knowing that A.J. was his friend and might listen.

Returning to the locker area, A.J. went ballistic again, this time against Malik Rose, challenging the 6-foot-6 forward to a fight.

"Next time I throw you the ball, you shoot it," Johnson demanded.

The two stared at each other.

Suddenly, Rose slipped on the slick concrete floor. His teammates then covered him like a fumbled football, fearing he might rise and pummel his little teammate.

We have seen better athletes, better ball handlers, better shooters and better point guards than Avery Johnson.

But we won't see another A.J. for some time. In effect, he has become a player-coach for Gregg Popovich, acting as a communication link between coach and team.

When the Spurs were flat as a tortilla before the Vancouver game, Pop asked A.J. to deliver some spicy salsa to the locker room.

Before the Lakers regular-season finale, Pop asked Avery if he should rest certain starters, or fire full guns. Johnson's advice was to play hard, and the end result was a 17-point comeback victory.

As the Spurs rumble and stumble into the playoffs, riddled with both injuries and doubt, there is no more important player on the roster than A.J.

With Tim Duncan sitting out the first game, and the perimeter shooting about as predictable as tech stocks, the Spurs need a settling factor.

And a guy who yells a lot, like A.J.

The day is coming when Popovich will hand the ball and the keys to the ultra-athletic Antonio Daniels. It won't be long before Pop says goodbye to A.J.

Soon, the offensive leader of this team will be a guy known as San Antonio Daniels.

But for now, this is A.J.'s team.

And if you're not playing hard, don't get in his way.

Amen.

<HR><I>[email protected]
Caption:
Avery Johnson, who has the drive of a champion, goes between the Grizzlies' Mike Bibby (left) and Cherokee Parks in a recent game.

Avery Johnson is so valuable that he has become a player-coach for Gregg Popovich.
Caption:
PHOTOS: DELCIA LOPEZ/STAFF

Copyright 2000 San Antonio Express-News

[whottt]

Did you just try to compare Don Harris to David Robinson :lmao

No I didn't...and it's good to see you've been taking my advice in the drugs thread...



If Pop wants the media to STFU about something, they'll STFU. To try to say a member of the media strong armed Pop into doing something he didn't want to do is both naive and shortchanging Pop for the power he holds.

Pop did not expect it to go down like that.

IF Pop had...Pop would not have given the jersey to Manu in the first place.


Just like right now...

Pop is going to get wind of that poll, and in the next few days you will see quotes by everyone from Reggie the Fat Coyote to Zarko Paspalj citing what a credit AJ was...and you'll be sitting here jocking it as the gospel...


Completely clueless to the truths about one Gregg Poppovich...


Those being...


Gregg Poppovich could give exactly two shits about whose jersey gets retired when it comes right down to it...


He hates two things, controversies and distractions...and this is fast becoming both....


And that's why he's just going to want to get this the fuck over with ASAP.



Don Harris = David Robinson might be worse than Coyote > DRob.

Just remember...I never endorsed crack in that thread.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Paper: San Antonio Express-News
Title: The wicked cricket? Two sides of victory
Date: February 27, 2000

There's another side to smiling, happy Avery Johnson, and this side has been busy lately.
This side confronted Malik Rose in a comical locker-room rumble in Cleveland. This side also, in a story last week, was described as "a snake in the grass."

The way this side is going: It will take a ruler to the palms of David Robinson today on NBC should Kevin Garnett dunk too often.

But if this side shocks, it shouldn't. This side has been there all along. This side willed a small, marginally talented man to an NBA career, and this side barked the Spurs to their first and only championship.

Two sides? The Spurs have needed both.

Robinson and Sean Elliott have been around AJ for so long that they no longer flinch when their point guard snarls at them. They know that's AJ being AJ.

His sermons can be pointed, which is why the same guy known as The Little General was once given another name by a teammate. The Little Nazi.

There are other, equally unaffectionate nicknames. An agent still calls him The Cricket after a role Johnson had in a movie featuring Whoopi Goldberg. As in: "I wish Gregg Popovich would quit listening to the bleeping Cricket all the time."

Teammates ought to love that Johnson has Popovich's ear. When there's grumbling about the offense - or anything else - Johnson is the go-between. Johnson yells at Popovich, too.

But Johnson's involvement isn't always easy for his peers to take. Locker-room leaders usually are the best players and AJ, for all his growth and chutzpah, still ranks as a role player.

AJ leads partly because the personalities of the Spurs' stars allow it. The ones most bothered, then, are those closer to Johnson's talent level. Such as Rose.

Once, in that loss in Cleveland, Johnson's man went around him, and Rose was forced to cover. He drew a foul for it and glared at a vet not accustomed to being the glaree.

What was said then is less clear. But according to those in the locker room, AJ went at Rose after the game. Rose, standing in socks, slipped without being touched. Various Spurs were coming out of the shower at the time, and they rushed to hold Rose to the floor.

Naked truth: No one thought the scene would have made for a dignified team photo.

But things like this happen, even on good teams between good people. Michael Jordan punched both Steve Kerr and Will Perdue at different times, and all went on to titles. After a loss such as the one in Cleveland, maybe childish anger was the appropriate response.

Chucky Brown's feelings, made public last week, were less specific. According to sources, Brown felt Johnson undercut him to Popovich, leading to both Brown's benching and eventual release.

"I don't see him," said Brown of Johnson in the most telling quote, "on any All-Star teams."

When asked by another reporter about the Spurs, Brown said he had problems with only one player. His description of that player: "A snake in the grass."

Johnson doesn't have the power that Brown thinks he has. Popovich listens to him, all right, but Popovich listens to Tim Duncan, too.

Johnson doesn't make Popovich's decisions for him, though indirectly Johnson did affect Brown. According to one Spurs official, Brown failed, in part, because both AJ and Robinson started the season so slowly. With neither scoring well, the Spurs needed more punch than Brown could give.

That's one explanation why Brown didn't work out. Johnson thinks Brown looks for another when he points at him. "Everybody sometimes is looking for an excuse," he said. "If you look at my track record in the NBA, every time I got cut I did not blame a coach or a player."

Instead, every time Johnson got cut, he remembered. He remembers every slight, and he does the same with these remarks.

"To whom much is given, much is required," said Johnson. "When I was in that below-average (level) of NBA player, nobody talked much about me, and I was OK. But now, you move up the ladder a little bit ... I'm glad somebody talked about me last year, and I'm glad somebody talked about me this year. I looked forward to the end result."

Is that a cricket? A snake?

Or, if the Spurs need a push today in Minnesota, a leader?

<HR><I>To leave a message for Buck Harvey, call ExpressLine at 554-0500 and punch 4402, or e-mail [email protected]

</I>

Copyright 2000 San Antonio Express-News
Author: Buck Harvey
Section: Sports
Page: 1C
Copyright 2000 San Antonio Express-News

[ShoogarBear]

Michael Jordan punched both Steve Kerr and Will Perdue at different times, and all went on to titles.

Steve Kerr? The 20th Greatest Spur of All Time? We should demand that the Bulls take down his number.








The Heat should take it down, too.

[J.T.]

This is the "in before lock" equivalent of the NBA. Give AJ his due before Parker busts a nut all over his records.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Steve Kerr? The 20th Greatest Spur of All Time? We should demand that the Bulls take down his number.








The Heat should take it down, too.

Im pretty sure Jordan didnt punch them for glaring at him because Jordan had just fucked up.

[whottt]

Paper: San Antonio Express-News
Title: One of a Kind
Spurs' Johnson a unique, special player
Date: April 22, 2000

The first time you saw Avery Johnson throw up that line-drive knuckleball, you wondered how he made it to the NBA in the first place.
Then you saw him mature into a floor leader.

Last June, against all odds, he tossed in the title-winning 18-footer against the New York Knicks.

The next thing we knew, the Spurs were floating down the San Antonio River with some pretty impressive NBA hardware in tow.

Watching A.J. from afar, and then seeing him up close this season, my opinion of the fiery little guard has changed.

In this business, you don't allow yourself to become overly impressed with the people you cover because the day will come when the pedestal breaks.

Mike Ditka once said that the main aim of sports media is to erect heroes for the purpose of tearing them down. There is a shard of truth to that.

I have witnessed the rise, and I've witnessed the fall of many great sports people.

But I've never seen anybody as funny, witty, wild, nutty, vocal, wide-eyed and evangelical as Avery Johnson.

Without the power of persuasion, Avery Johnson wouldn't be where he is today - defending an NBA title.

And without him, the Spurs wouldn't be where they are right now - 15 wins from another ring.

Someone asked A.J. the other night what he had done to inspire the 12-point comeback against Vancouver. He blurted, "I said the Lord's prayer."

Actually, Lord's was "Low-erd's" and prayer was "pray-yer."

Either way, I believed him.

With Avery in the pulpit, you can close your eyes and imagine a hot and sticky night beneath a revival tent somewhere in the Mississippi Delta. You want to say, "Amen, brother" and shout "Hallelujah."

The sermons are infectious. He has been delivering them for the last six seasons in San Antonio, and it seems that folks still listen.

For example:

When the Spurs embarrassed themselves in Cleveland after the All-Star break, he tore into his teammates. From the shower, he continued to exhale fire and brimstone. Spurs players delegated David Robinson to wade into the hot water and cool down the agitated Avery.

Robinson didn't want the assignment, but accepted anyway, knowing that A.J. was his friend and might listen.

Returning to the locker area, A.J. went ballistic again, this time against Malik Rose, challenging the 6-foot-6 forward to a fight.

"Next time I throw you the ball, you shoot it," Johnson demanded.

The two stared at each other.

Suddenly, Rose slipped on the slick concrete floor. His teammates then covered him like a fumbled football, fearing he might rise and pummel his little teammate.

We have seen better athletes, better ball handlers, better shooters and better point guards than Avery Johnson.

But we won't see another A.J. for some time. In effect, he has become a player-coach for Gregg Popovich, acting as a communication link between coach and team.

When the Spurs were flat as a tortilla before the Vancouver game, Pop asked A.J. to deliver some spicy salsa to the locker room.

Before the Lakers regular-season finale, Pop asked Avery if he should rest certain starters, or fire full guns. Johnson's advice was to play hard, and the end result was a 17-point comeback victory.

As the Spurs rumble and stumble into the playoffs, riddled with both injuries and doubt, there is no more important player on the roster than A.J.

With Tim Duncan sitting out the first game, and the perimeter shooting about as predictable as tech stocks, the Spurs need a settling factor.

And a guy who yells a lot, like A.J.

The day is coming when Popovich will hand the ball and the keys to the ultra-athletic Antonio Daniels. It won't be long before Pop says goodbye to A.J.

Soon, the offensive leader of this team will be a guy known as San Antonio Daniels.

But for now, this is A.J.'s team.

And if you're not playing hard, don't get in his way.

Amen.

<HR><I>[email protected]
Caption:
Avery Johnson, who has the drive of a champion, goes between the Grizzlies' Mike Bibby (left) and Cherokee Parks in a recent game.

Avery Johnson is so valuable that he has become a player-coach for Gregg Popovich.
Caption:
PHOTOS: DELCIA LOPEZ/STAFF

Copyright 2000 San Antonio Express-News


Classic...


Spurs would have given their left nut to be rid of AJ at the time this fluff/spin was written..


Don't worry Blaze...we'll protect your family from them.

[whottt]

Steve Kerr? The 20th Greatest Spur of All Time? We should demand that the Bulls take down his number.

Actually...Kerr started that fight with Jordan. He said it was either do it or be Jordan's bitch for the rest of his career.


Perdue got punched for fouling Jordan harder than he ever fouled Bulls opponents.

[whottt]

By the way...am I the only one that noticed Shoogar just attempted to classify AJ in the same category as Jordan...

Pssst Shoogar...AJ would have been washing Jordan's jocks if they played together. I promise you...Jordan would have never passed it to him at the 3 point line with a championship on the line...as Jordan did with Ker....after that fight.

[ShoogarBear]

I was just trying to back up your devastating argument that Fighting In The Locker Room = Bad Leader.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

Wouldn't that have more to do with the fact that Avery was the caliber shooter who would go on to hit a total of 27 threes over his career?

Hell, Tim has 24.

[timvp]

Pop did not expect it to go down like that.

IF Pop had...Pop would not have given the jersey to Manu in the first place. The point is Pop wouldn't have let it go down like that if he didn't want it to go down like that.



Completely clueless to the truths about one Gregg Poppovich...


Those being...


Gregg Poppovich could give exactly two shits about whose jersey gets retired when it comes right down to it...


He hates two things, controversies and distractions...and this is fast becoming both....


And that's why he's just going to want to get this the fuck over with ASAP. Where is the controversy or distraction? All that is in your own mind.

Most Spurs fans can at least grasp the fact that AJ meant something to the Spurs. You think basketball revolves around three-point shooting so therefore AJ sucked.

Luckily, most Spurs fans don't look at basketball in that context.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The point is Pop wouldn't have let it go down like that if he didn't want it to go down like that.


Where is the controversy or distraction? All that is in your own mind.

Most Spurs fans can at least grasp the fact that AJ meant something to the Spurs. You think basketball revolves around three-point shooting so therefore AJ sucked.

Luckily, most Spurs fans don't look at basketball in that context.

FWIW out of over 100 votes on your wifes poll its almost 2:1 saying that he shouldnt get his number retired.

[whottt]

I was just trying to back up your devastating argument that Fighting In The Locker Room = Bad Leader.


Who said Jordan was a great leader?


Said to Jordan:

You don't make your teamates better.


Jordan's response:

Then get me better teamates.

[timvp]

FWIW out of over 100 votes on your wifes poll its almost 2:1 saying that he shouldnt get his number retired.AJ isn't a fan favorite. Never was. That's a myth.

I'm actually surprised the poll is that close. :tu

[whottt]

FWIW out of over 100 votes on your wifes poll its almost 2:1 saying that he shouldnt get his number retired.


Don't mess with timvp when he's spinning...someone could get injured.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

AJ isn't a fan favorite. Never was. That's a myth.

I'm actually surprised the poll is that close. :tu

interesting. I always thought most people bought into that little general crap they were always force feeding us.

[whottt]

Wouldn't that have more to do with the fact that Avery was the caliber shooter who would go on to hit a total of 27 threes over his career?
.


Right...not only would Jordan have not passed it to AJ...AJ wouldn't have been on the court. He'd have had to get by Jordan and Phil...aint happening with no 3 shot....


Not that threes are important to those guys or anything............

[whottt]

interesting. I always thought most people bought into that little general crap they were always force feeding us.


timvp is full of it...word is Kori had to take him to the hospital to get treated for shock when he saw the results of the original ST AJ jersey retirement poll(which was the first time AJ lost one of those polls, before he coached the Mavs).

The fact is...once AJ got out of SA the Spurs couldn't protect AJ from his own mouth...and that's got more do with his loss of popularity than anything else...especially his mouth during the playoffs 2 years ago....

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Right...not only would Jordan have not passed it to AJ...AJ wouldn't have been on the court. He'd have had to get by Jordan and Phil...aint happening with no 3 shot....


Not that threes are important to those guys or anything............

it wasnt just his three point shot. his midrange shot was crap as well. he couldnt hit anything farther out than a layup with consistency and he wasnt quick enough to beat people off the dribble.

His lack of quicks hurt him on defense and he was so small that he could easily be outmuscled.

In his favor he didnt turn the ball over very mucha nd was a decent passer but he was mediocre on the break.

[whottt]

The point is Pop wouldn't have let it go down like that if he didn't want it to go down like that.


So wait...Pop wanted to look like a clueless idiot?

Why?


What purpose did it serve...other than to make Pop look like a clueless idiot?


Yeah...nothing says intelligence like

A. Handing out a jersey he wanted to retire.

B. Telling Manu he wasn't good enough for that jersey. And publicly making an ass of him. Can only help when it's time to re-sign Manu.

C. Indian Giving.


Sure...Pop loves clusterfucks like that.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

timvp is full of it...word is Kori had to take him to the hospital to get treated for shock when he saw the results of the original ST AJ jersey retirement poll(which was the first time AJ lost one of those polls, before he coached the Mavs).

The fact is...once AJ got out of SA the Spurs couldn't protect AJ from his own mouth...and that's got more do with his loss of popularity than anything else...especially his mouth during the playoffs 2 years ago....

Oh i know. i just hope he doesnt think his condescension is convincing anyone.

[whottt]

it wasnt just his three point shot. his midrange shot was crap as well. he couldnt hit anything farther out than a layup with consistency and he wasnt quick enough to beat people off the dribble.



I know...it's just that there's no statistical evidence to prove he couldn't hit that 15 footer worth a flip for %99.9999999 of his career...while 1 playoff 3 in a 19 year career kicks the ass of anyone attempting to argue he had a shot.


That is probably the lowest 3 made/attempt by a guard in NBA history...

In 19 years this dude was only open enough to take a 3 27 times? Ridiculous...

With that low of totals, he was either the most dangerous and best defended 3 shooter in NBA history...or the least, and still refusing to take them. No two ways about it...

[timvp]

whottt and Fuzzy is a match made in heaven.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

whottt and Fuzzy is a match made in heaven.

brah, why are you being like this?

its not as if were not trying to make an intelligent argument.

you claim he had big games. we point out he was wide open and could only hit from that one spot on the floor as well as overall completion percentage.

you claim 'most fans' appreciate what Johnson has done and we cite the poll that is up.

you claim his leadership and we cite the fight and a few articles that contradict that.

I mean youve even called me a liar and then questioned my factual correctness when one of those articles pretty much spelled out how factually correct you were. it was over a glare malik gave when johnson dropped the soap on defense and not malik holding onto the ball.

But now youre playing this game and i really dont get it.

[timvp]

Who said Jordan was a great leader?

:rollin

Now Jordan wasn't a leader. I guess his three-point percentage wasn't impressive enough.

[timvp]

timvp is full of it...word is Kori had to take him to the hospital to get treated for shock when he saw the results of the original ST AJ jersey retirement poll(which was the first time AJ lost one of those polls, before he coached the Mavs).

The fact is...once AJ got out of SA the Spurs couldn't protect AJ from his own mouth...and that's got more do with his loss of popularity than anything else...especially his mouth during the playoffs 2 years ago....I've been defending AJ since you were a Mavs fan back before you became a Spurs fan. You don't think I know how much this fan base never appreciated AJ? He may at one point been popular with the most casual of casual Spurs fans ... but even that was overstated.

[timvp]

it wasnt just his three point shot. his midrange shot was crap as well. he couldnt hit anything farther out than a layup with consistency and he wasnt quick enough to beat people off the dribble.You wonder why I'm being hard on you and then you have a take like this. His midrange shot was always decent. It became good starting in around 1998. And he had enough quickness to get in the lane and finish over taller defenders.

You crap on his whole game and then get offended when I correct it.

[timvp]

So wait...Pop wanted to look like a clueless idiot? Clueless idiot? You are the only person to say that.

So not only did Don Harris strong arm Pop into doing something he didn't want to do, Pop came out looking like a clueless idiot. Got it.

I guess Pop hasn't hit enough three-pointers either . . .

[timvp]

brah, why are you being like this?I'm not being like anything. I'm just trying to interject some reality to the AJ bashfest you and whottt are having.

If you have a problem with AJ's jersey being retired, you have a problem with Pop, Peter Holt, David Robinson, timvp, Sean Elliott, Mario Elie, the 1999 championship, gumbo and the current offense the Spurs run.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You wonder why I'm being hard on you and then you have a take like this. His midrange shot was always decent. It became good starting in around 1998. And he had enough quickness to get in the lane and finish over taller defenders.

You crap on his whole game and then get offended when I correct it.

Oh so now i have gotten offended? Youre the one thats starting to make matchmaking comments.

His midrange game after 98 was a 15 to 18 footer to the left of the key when his man would double to the strongside and even that went into the toilet but then there is the whole issue of the 6 seasons before 98-99 where he was godawful.

And i never said he couldnt finish. He was effective with that scoop but he generally was incapable of beating his man off the dribble.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I'm not being like anything. I'm just trying to interject some reality to the AJ bashfest you and whottt are having.

If you have a problem with AJ's jersey being retired, you have a problem with Pop, Peter Holt, David Robinson, timvp, Sean Elliott, Mario Elie, the 1999 championship, gumbo and the current offense the Spurs run.

Reality huh? Its not as if were making posts consisting of 'Avery is the suxxorz Mavs traitor and i wish he would die.'

Were discussing the merits of Johnson and youre starting to get snippy.

[ShoogarBear]

Reality huh? Its not as if were making posts consisting of 'Avery is the suxxorz Mavs traitor and i wish he would die.'
Clearly you don't know who you're siding with.

[whottt]

:rollin

Now Jordan wasn't a leader. I guess his three-point percentage wasn't impressive enough.

He lead....but he didn't make other guys better by naturally playing to their strenghts...he lead by taking the freaking ball and scoring his teams to wins. I wouldn't call his leadership skills great...he got better at it as he learned to trust his teamates later on...

But no...he wasn't a particularly great or natural leader. Great player...not a great leader...


Early on he was Kobe....with a better shooting PCT.


FWIW...I agree, he's one thousand times the leader AJ was...


Happy now?



Tim Duncan is a much better leader than Jordan was IMO.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Clearly you don't know who you're siding with.

i could give a shit if mouse agrees with me. and hes not posting tripe like that now.

ive actually held this opinion about johnson for years even when he was at the height of his little general propaganda lovefest.

[whottt]

Clearly you don't know who you're siding with.


Sure he does...TimVP already said he used to be a MavFan, which means he's separated himself from Ponky and Skank....and Leonard.


Unlike some.......






By the way it sure was genius of Pop to give Manu a jersey he wanted to retire...checking those poll results, it worked like a charm.

[ShoogarBear]

He lead....but he didn't make other guys better by naturally playing to their strenghts...he lead by taking the freaking ball and scoring his teams to wins. I wouldn't call his leadership skills great...he got better at it as he learned to trust his teamates later on...
Hmmm. So then would you call DRob a great leader?

[timvp]

Reality huh? Its not as if were making posts consisting of 'Avery is the suxxorz Mavs traitor and i wish he would die.'

Were discussing the merits of Johnson and youre starting to get snippy.I'm not getting snippy at all. I apologize if I have offended you but I was just messin' around. You and whottt are not a match ... my apologies.

I'm used to AJ not getting credit. If you read the thread, I concede he wasn't that great of a basketball player. He's not as inept as some have made him out to be but he surely wasn't an All-Star.

He had his moments. He lit up the best trio of point guards ever assembled. He played well at various point throughout his Spurs career.

But more importantly, he helped instill a championship fiber into this franchise that it needed. Without a player like AJ (who then brough in Mario), I'm not convinced that the Spurs would have ever gotten over the hurdle that currently blocks the Mavs and Suns from being champions. Who on the Mavs or Suns dies as much for a championship as AJ did?

All AJ ever wanted was a championship. That was his driving force. I respect that immensely and no matter how much anyone craps on his game or talks about how bad he was, you can never take that away from him. You can also never take away the gratitude I have for AJ helping make this franchise a winner.

All I ever ask out of a player is to do whatever it takes to win a championship. Even AJ haters have to admit that all AJ ever wanted to do was win.

AJ had no natural talent but wanted to lead a team to championship. He did it. End of story.

[ShoogarBear]

Sure he does...TimVP already said he used to be a MavFan, Ah, so that explains his natural alliance with you.
:p:


I like all Dallas teams.

[whottt]

Clueless idiot? You are the only person to say that.

Handing out a jersey you want to retire is pure genius...and looking at the 2-1 margin against AJ's jersey retirement...I'd say it was a masterful job of string pulling on Pop's part.






So not only did Don Harris strong arm Pop into doing something he didn't want to do, Pop came out looking like a clueless idiot. Got it.

He didn't strong arm him into doing it...it was a coup. A theft...



I guess Pop hasn't hit enough three-pointers either . . .

Well...AJ does have him beat there, gotta admit...by one.

Come to think of it...AJ's got me and my grandma beat...by one.....in 19 years....playing with David Robinson...and Tim Duncan....


Props :tu

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I'm not getting snippy at all. I apologize if I have offended you but I was just messin' around. You and whottt are not a match ... my apologies.

I'm used to AJ not getting credit. If you read the thread, I concede he wasn't that great of a basketball player. He's not as inept as some have made him out to be but he surely wasn't an All-Star.

He had his moments. He lit up the best trio of point guards ever assembled. He played well at various point throughout his Spurs career.

But more importantly, he helped instill a championship fiber into this franchise that it needed. Without a player like AJ (who then brough in Mario), I'm not convinced that the Spurs would have ever gotten over the hurdle that currently blocks the Mavs and Suns from being champions. Who on the Mavs or Suns dies as much for a championship as AJ did?

All AJ ever wanted was a championship. That was his driving force. I respect that immensely and no matter how much anyone craps on his game or talks about how bad he was, you can never take that away from him. You can also never take away the gratitude I have for AJ helping make this franchise a winner.

All I ever ask out of a player is to do whatever it takes to win a championship. Even AJ haters have to admit that all AJ ever wanted to do was win.

AJ had no natural talent but wanted to lead a team to championship. He did it. End of story.


Fair enough. I find it to be sentimental tripe but thats just me. And again im not offended, i love arguing.

[whottt]

Ah, so that explains his natural alliance with you.
:p:


As opposed to Leonard...

[whottt]

He had his moments. He lit up the best trio of point guards ever assembled.

:lmao

Good lord the BS just got deep in here...







Who on the Mavs or Suns dies as much for a championship as AJ did?

Mark Cuban.






All AJ ever wanted was a championship. That was his driving force. I respect that immensely and no matter how much anyone craps on his game or talks about how bad he was, you can never take that away from him.


All I want is a championship too...I'm bitchy and bossy...I can't shoot, and I've made even fewer playoff threes than AJ...retire my jersey.


I don't see why you're so bitter anyway...he's getting his jersey retired.

[timvp]

:lmao

Good lord the BS just got deep in here...Name me a better trio of point guards on the same team than Jason Kidd, Steve Nash and Kevin Johnson. AJ had a career high on their azzes in the deciding game.

Apology Accepted.


Mark Cuban. :lmao

Cuban? Is that your feminine tendencies coming out again?

:rollin @ whottt pulling the Cuban card in an argument. His Dallas love is showing again.


All I want is a championship too...I'm bitchy and bossy...I can't shoot, and I've made even fewer playoff threes than AJ...retire my jersey.

I don't see why you're so bitter anyway...he's getting his jersey retired.How am I bitter? I'll be the happiest fan in the arena. I'm counting down the days. And you know what, I'll take whottt to the game so he can see it first hand.

Then we can bet on how many times everyone says that AJ was a huge part of the 1999 championship. Well, scratch that, whenever I bet with you regarding AJ, you end up reneging anyways. Might as well change your screen name to welchhh.

[atxrocker]

lol @ the whottt/timvp dispute going on. thanks for the laughs, guys

[whottt]

So then would you call DRob a great leader?

Hmmmm....DRob is a fantastic leader, natural...on being a better human being. Winning a championship at all costs...not so much.


IF he was AJ would have never been his PG.

[timvp]

*cue whottt mixing in Dancing With The Stars into his next take*

[whottt]

Name me a better trio of point guards on the same team than Jason Kidd, Steve Nash and Kevin Johnson. AJ had a career high on their azzes in the deciding game.

Apology Accepted.

Jordan Pippen and whoever the other guard on their teams were.
Thomas Dumars and whoever the other guards on their teams were.


And AJ having a career high on their azzes qualifies as lit up for him and a shitty half for the guys he was lighting up.


KJ was done, Nash hadn't begun, and Kidd was the only guy in his prime at that time...he's also a shitty man on man defender against quicker/smaller guards...you want to see him lit up? Look at the numbers Steve Nash has put up on his azz.


You aren't seriously attempting to claim that was actually the greatest guard rotation ever assembled...in deed, at that time?


Freaking Kobe, me and you is a better guard rotation based on their playing levels at that time.


And it wasn't a good defensive rotaion...ever.

John Stockton by himself was better than that guard rotation...




:lmao

Cuban? Is that your feminine tendencies coming out again?

:rollin @ whottt pulling the Cuban card in an argument. His Dallas love is showing again.

Yeah...pales in comparison to AJ's Dallas love though...






Then we can bet on how many times everyone says that AJ was a huge part of the 1999 championship. Well, scratch that, whenever I bet with you regarding AJ, you end up reneging anyways. Might as well change your screen name to welchhh.


Lame...you never produced a contract offer. You also attempted to claim you won that bet based on an erroneous report at least once.

[whottt]

*cue whottt mixing in Dancing With The Stars into his next take*

What's wrong with Dancing with the Stars?


Go tell Emmitt he's a little fruity...

[timvp]

Jordan Pippen and whoever the other guard on their teams were.
Thomas Dumars and whoever the other guards on their teams were. Jordan, Pippen and Dumars were point guards?



And AJ having a career high on their azzes qualifies as lit up for him and a shitty half for the guys he was lighting up. Yeah, 30 points, 7 assists, 11-for-15 from the field is a sh!tty half for those guys.

Way to stick to reality.



Yeah...pales in comparison to AJ's Dallas love though...

"I root for all Dallas teams." -- whottt



Lame...you never produced a contract offer. You also attempted to claim you won that bet based on an erroneous report at least once.How many times did you want it reported? You claimed I didn't win the bet because I couldn't produce the actual contract offer.

Maybe you can change your screen name to welch via technicalittty.

[timvp]

What's wrong with Dancing with the Stars?No response needed.

[whottt]

Jordan, Pippen and Dumars were point guards?

Avery Johnson:
assists per game: 5.5

Michael Jordan:
assists per game: 5.3

Scottie Pippen:
assists per game: 5.2








Yeah, 30 points, 7 assists, 11-for-15 from the field is a sh!tty half for those guys.

Way to stick to reality.


Ok...so it was a good half for those guys.





"I root for all Dallas teams." -- whottt




I coach the Dallas Mavericks - Avery Johnson





How many times did you want it reported? You claimed I didn't win the bet because I couldn't produce the actual contract offer.

Right...I want you to prove the Spurs offered AJ that position...and more than it was just discussed..





Maybe you can change your screen name to welch via technicalittty.


I will...if you change your name to, I take that Dallas quote out of context continually shamelessly, and I didn't read the original conditions of the bet.

[timvp]

Avery Johnson:
assists per game: 5.5

Michael Jordan:
assists per game: 5.3

Scottie Pippen:
assists per game: 5.2Thanks for proving my point.


Right...I want you to prove the Spurs offered AJ that position...and more than it was just discussed..
Pop told him to come end his career as a player/coach for the Spurs. It was reported by Pop errrrrrrr the local print media.

What more do you want?



I will...if you change your name to, I take that Dallas quote out of context continually shamelessly, and I didn't read the original conditions of the bet.Are you or are you not a fan of multiple Dallas based teams? Did you or did you not say you like the Dallas Rangers more than the Spurs?

You've previously admitted I won that bet. Are you you now welching on your welch?

[T Park]

Nothing needs to be said other than FWD's and TIMVP's takes.

Those posts say it all.

[jmrodjr]

Date has been set, I just read this on the Dallas Morning News Website

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/basketball/mavs/stories/100307dnspomavscamp.376a3c3.html[/URL]

Spotlight on: Avery Johnson
Avery Johnson's No. 6 is headed to the rafters – in San Antonio. The Mavericks coach was told during the summer that his jersey number would be retired by the Spurs. It is scheduled to happen Dec. 22 at the Spurs' home game against the LA Clippers. "We're not having it when the Mavericks play them," Johnson said. Spurs coach Gregg Popovich "and I agreed to that." Johnson said it's the sort of honor he never expected. "That's a really special deal," he said. "I don't think I ever would have thought when I started playing in the NBA that I'd ever get my jersey retired. That's going to be a special night for my family and all the people that invested in me." When news filtered to Mavs players, the response was universal applause. "Obviously, he wasn't a highly drafted guy," Devin Harris said. "He had to work his way up to the NBA. For a player like that to have his number retired shows what kind of player he was and, obviously, what kind of coach he is."

[SenorSpur]

Classic...


Spurs would have given their left nut to be rid of AJ at the time this fluff/spin was written..


Don't worry Blaze...we'll protect your family from them.

Don't know how you found it, but thanks for posting.

[SenorSpur]

Date has been set, I just read this on the Dallas Morning News Website

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/basketball/mavs/stories/100307dnspomavscamp.376a3c3.html[/URL]

Spotlight on: Avery Johnson
Avery Johnson's No. 6 is headed to the rafters – in San Antonio. The Mavericks coach was told during the summer that his jersey number would be retired by the Spurs. It is scheduled to happen Dec. 22 at the Spurs' home game against the LA Clippers. "We're not having it when the Mavericks play them," Johnson said. Spurs coach Gregg Popovich "and I agreed to that." Johnson said it's the sort of honor he never expected. "That's a really special deal," he said. "I don't think I ever would have thought when I started playing in the NBA that I'd ever get my jersey retired. That's going to be a special night for my family and all the people that invested in me." When news filtered to Mavs players, the response was universal applause. "Obviously, he wasn't a highly drafted guy," Devin Harris said. "He had to work his way up to the NBA. For a player like that to have his number retired shows what kind of player he was and, obviously, what kind of coach he is."

Wonder why the hell they don't simply do the ceremony when the Mavs come to town? What's the point in making the guy come in for an extra trip? It's not like it's going to give the Mavs some sort of psychological
edge.

[Fabbs]

Is there a link with the final votes?
b. tell me what the final tally was.
Cause the link died.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Wonder why the hell they don't simply do the ceremony when the Mavs come to town? What's the point in making the guy come in for an extra trip? It's not like it's going to give the Mavs some sort of psychological
edge.


Sounds like AJ wanted it that way.

[smeagol]

He was dumped for an 18 year old french kid from another country who had never played nba ball.

:lol :lol

Am I the only one who found this redundantly funny?

[Whisky Dog]

Nothing needs to be said other than FWD's and TIMVP's takes.

Those posts say it all.

Wow, what a surprise :rolleyes

[Whisky Dog]

I'm not being like anything. I'm just trying to interject some reality to the AJ bashfest you and whottt are having.

If you have a problem with AJ's jersey being retired, you have a problem with Pop, Peter Holt, David Robinson, timvp, Sean Elliott, Mario Elie, the 1999 championship, gumbo and the current offense the Spurs run.


What does any of that stuff have to do with AJ's jersey being retired? That makes no sense.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Only the most obtuse of Spur fans would ever argue that Bowen's number wasn't going to get retired.
This is second time in the last month or so you have referred to me as obtuse, Shoog. Have you been watching The Shawshank Redemption?

To clarify my position (albeit a few days late) I think that prior to AJ getting his number retired, there might have been room for debate on Bowen. In all likelihood Duncan, Gino, and Parker will get their numbers hung up as well barring any of them converting to Satanism, signing with Lakers, or setting fire to the Coyote. Of those four players from this championship group you have a no brainer HOFer in Duncan, two guys who could end up there (Parker & Ginobili), and a journeyman who blossomed into an incredible defender with the Spurs.

I'm not hating on Bowen. I'm just saying that just as some had doubts about Elliott getting his number retired because of the gulf of talent between him and guys like Ice and the Admiral, Bowen might have seen similar doubts because of the company he would be in. Retiring #6 removes any sort of room for debate on Bowen.

I will now step aside and let Whottt resume yelling at people.

[SRJ]

Actually...Kerr started that fight with Jordan. He said it was either do it or be Jordan's bitch for the rest of his career.

More whott misinformation. Another lie, if you will.

In ESPN's SportsCentury series, Jordan described what went on there. He said when practice started that day, he figured Phil Jackson must have given the word to the other guards to get very physical with Jordan. So Kerr would guard Jordan and shove him around, as instructed by Jackson, and no fouls were called. On the other end, Jordan got physical in retaliation. Kerr was getting the calls Jordan wasn't, so Jordan got more irritated and even more physical. So Kerr retaliated and got more physical himself. Jordan snapped, punched Kerr in the eye, and Jackson threw him out of practice. After he got home and calmed down, Jordan called Kerr and apologized.

I paraphrased of course, but that is Jordan's account of his punch of Steve Kerr.

[SequSpur]

I don't even consider that he is coaching the Mavs, I look at it as he was a gravy training lucky mofo to have played with Duncan and Robinson.

The Spurs were active every day trying to replace or sign a better point guard. He was the fucking weak link on the whole team. Period. Exclamation mark.

As soon as, I mean as soon as Parker got here and destroyed Avery in practice, Avery was fucking gone! Gone! uhhh.. did I say gone?! yeah.. gone.....

how simple does the shit get? Avery hit a wide open few footer to win a game... how many of those fucking shots did he miss? tons........ Fuck, it was so wide open, there wasn't a player on the same side of the court... They didn't even guard him, he was the player that they left to double team a big.

Seriously, are you that blind? Because he said a team prayer and he talked funny, he gets his jersey retired? There are 5 current players at least! that deserve their jersey to be retired if his ass is getting it..........

It has nothing to do with Dallas or his big mouth. His on the court play and his off the court bullshit was overrated. Look at the poll, its overwhelming that spurs fan could give a shit about him.

It's all about David and Tim and now Manu, Tony and Tim... He doesn't even a equate on the got damn scale... What the fuck am I missing?

Cuz he got some assists to the two of the best players ever to play the game? How in the shit does he benefit from that? He was dumped for an 18 year old french kid from another country who had never played nba ball.

WTF does that tell you? It's not even an argument, is so got damn blatant, I don't see how anyone could say he deserves this? for his play? uh hell no... cuz he could say the lord's prayer in a twangy voice? uh yeah probably...

AJ is overrated.

Case End.

[SRJ]

The Hall Of Fame is the institution which honors great players. Avery Johnson can only get in there the same way I do - a weekend visit to Springfield, Massachusetts.

The retirement of a jersey is a different matter entirely, and Avery Johnson is certainly worthy of that honor.

I will admit that there is a significant amount of overlap between the HOF and retired jerseys. For instance, George Gervin and David Robinson are two players in our history who were known the world over as being elite players, and their induction into Springfield (Robinson isn't eligible yet, but he's a mortal lock) confirms that. But jersey retirements also honor those players who weren't necessarily among the best in the world, but who gave the franchise everything they had and represented it well.

Dave Twardzik's jersey was retired in Portland, Don Nelson's in Boston, Brad Davis' in Dallas, Al Attles' in Oakland - they were about as good, more or less, as Avery Johnson. And while none were perennial All-Stars, they provided consistency for their clubs. They were hard-working, self-made players who produced for the team and also had value in non-statistical ways.

I always admired and respected Avery Johnson; and while I'll admit he can rub the wrong way at times, tell me who's worse to have: a guy who runs his mouth sometimes but works constantly, like a dog, to improve himself and his game, or a guy who doesn't make waves and coasts along on big talent? I'll take Avery Johnson and his kind over the potential All-Stars that don't work hard, that abuse their bodies, that have no love for the game unless they are the Big Men on Campus.

Richard Dumas was a huge talent - but not one team will be retiring his jersey. Ditto Glenn Robinson, Joe Barry Carroll, Len Bias, Oliver Miller, Isaiah Rider, and on and on. Guys like Avery Johnson deserve honors for being true professionals, and I'm glad he'll have his day in San Antonio.

And if it took Don Harris opening his big fat mouth to get it done, then I'm glad he did. We can hang #20 up there too.

Word.

[whottt]

More whott misinformation. Another lie, if you will.

In ESPN's SportsCentury series, Jordan described what went on there. He said when practice started that day, he figured Phil Jackson must have given the word to the other guards to get very physical with Jordan. So Kerr would guard Jordan and shove him around, as instructed by Jackson, and no fouls were called. On the other end, Jordan got physical in retaliation. Kerr was getting the calls Jordan wasn't, so Jordan got more irritated and even more physical. So Kerr retaliated and got more physical himself. Jordan snapped, punched Kerr in the eye, and Jackson threw him out of practice. After he got home and calmed down, Jordan called Kerr and apologized.

I paraphrased of course, but that is Jordan's account of his punch of Steve Kerr.


I didn't lie, Steve Kerr evidentally lied on national TV during a TNT broadcast...

Steve Kerr said Jordan was punking him, in his face, and he had a choice of either sticking up for himself , or, his exact words, "being obedient to Michael for the rest of his career", he chose the first option.


Be careful about throwing the word liar around, because you are uinformed and speaking from a position of ignorance...it make you look like a real idiot.

Not as bad as thinking AJ had a shot of any kind...but an idiot nontheless.

[whottt]

Meanwhile:

Sending a boy to do a man's job
Let him make his own number


Keep sweeping it under the rug, liars.

[FromWayDowntown]

Meanwhile:

Sending a boy to do a man's job
Let him make his own number


Keep sweeping it under the rug, liars.

Honestly, I'm not sure what those statements really have to do with the merits of retiring AJ's number.

[SequSpur]

Guys that can say the Lord's Prayer in a twangy voice don't deserve to have their jersey's retired.

What else could it be?

[timvp]

Honestly, I'm not sure what those statements really have to do with the merits of retiring AJ's number.whottt just likes rehashing things that the rest of the world has long ago forgotten about. Everyone else has moved on. The people who don't like AJ at least don't like him for things he's done in the last five years.

[whottt]

Honestly, I'm not sure what those statements really have to do with the merits of retiring AJ's number.


Because they illustrate the fact that he's a selfcentered asshole who takes his lack of talent out on rookies and younger players? For starters?


You don't see it...you're a lawyer...you see what you want to see.

[whottt]

whottt just likes rehashing things that the rest of the world has long ago forgotten about.

I didn't realize I was speaking with the authority for the rest of the world...

Last I checked, 2-1 against AJ and you think he's a Saint that can do no wrong...

I'd say the evidence is that you aren't in touch with the rest of the world on this subject.



Everyone else has moved on. The people who don't like AJ at least don't like him for things he's done in the last five years.

Yeah because that's better or something...why?



Anyway...I guess you're right...it's not like he said no team with Tony Parker as a PG will ever win a title or anything...is it?

[whottt]

My question...why do these words need to be forgotten?


Why can't we all just wear a shirt celebrating AJ's leadership...


Why is it bad to bring up stuff he actually said?

[timvp]

Avery Johnson:
assists per game: 5.5

Michael Jordan:
assists per game: 5.3

Scottie Pippen:
assists per game: 5.2Thanks for proving my point.


Right...I want you to prove the Spurs offered AJ that position...and more than it was just discussed..
Pop told him to come end his career as a player/coach for the Spurs. It was reported by Pop errrrrrrr the local print media.

What more do you want?



I will...if you change your name to, I take that Dallas quote out of context continually shamelessly, and I didn't read the original conditions of the bet.Are you or are you not a fan of multiple Dallas based teams? Did you or did you not say you like the Dallas Rangers more than the Spurs?

You've previously admitted I won that bet. Are you you now welching on your welch?

[timvp]

My question...why do these words need to be forgotten?


Why can't we all just wear a shirt celebrating AJ's leadership...


Why is it bad to bring up stuff he actually said?Go ahead. But also remember to wear a shirt that has his follow up comments where he said Parker was already better than him at 21 and the multiple times he's praised Manu.

Tim Duncan also didn't like Tony Parker at first. Do you still hold that against him? Pop and Manu got in arguments when Manu first got here? In fact, after Pop told Manu to do something, Manu famously declined saying, "That's just how I play."

Where are these t-shirts?

[FromWayDowntown]

Because they illustrate the fact that he's a selfcentered asshole who takes his lack of talent out on rookies and younger players? For starters?


You don't see it...you're a lawyer...you see what you want to see.

I'm glad you could stay away from personal attacks and keep this as a discussion of the topic.

Nevertheless, even if AJ was the biggest bully in the world and had the foulest mouth of any "self-centered asshole" ever, what difference does that make to arguing whether his number should be retired or not. The Spurs aren't exactly limiting the rafters to airy-angels, you know.

[whottt]

Thanks for proving my point.


That AJ wasn't a point guard? Or that those guys were? Albeit...not the pass first kind like AJ.





Pop told him to come end his career as a player/coach for the Spurs. It was reported by Pop errrrrrrr the local print media.

What more do you want?

Proof that Pop actually wanted him here and wasn't just jacking with Cuban's cap....more than a just a one sentence blurb saying Pop called AJ....or was it AJ called Pop? Proof that it was more than just a negotiating ploy by AJ...to get more money, which he did.


Either way...you lose, either I am right, or else AJ isn't Mr. Spur....as his jersey retirement would indicate...






Are you or are you not a fan of multiple Dallas based teams? Did you or did you not say you like the Dallas Rangers more than the Spurs?


Not a fan of the Mavericks...ever.

I like baseball better than basketball...BFD. I played baseball...

Is having a favorite sport some kind of crime or something?






You've previously admitted I won that bet. Are you you now welching on your welch?

I am still waiting proof agreed upon at the time the bet was made...either way, I am happy with the results....either I am right, or AJ isn't an iconic Spur...he's a guy who wants to coach the Mavs.


I know...this is the part where you completely contradict yourself by saying Pop didn't think it was a good idea to AJ to coach the Spurs...

[whottt]

I'm glad you could stay away from personal attacks and keep this as a discussion of the topic.

Why would you construe that as an attack?

I was just being honest...the same way I am when I put AJ's statements up there for public perusal...

I know that's for some reason wrong in your eyes...nontheless...I stand by my statements.




Nevertheless, even if AJ was the biggest bully in the world and had the foulest mouth of any "self-centered asshole" ever, what difference does that make to arguing whether his number should be retired or not.

Sure it does...how in the heck are those words of a leader?

And he was saying stuff like that here at the end as well...which is why his butt got run out of town.




The Spurs aren't exactly limiting the rafters to airy-angels, you know.


You tell me why AJ is going up there....

[timvp]

Proof that Pop actually wanted him here and wasn't just jacking with Cuban's cap....more than a just a one sentence blurb saying Pop called AJ....or was it AJ called Pop? Proof that it was more than just a negotiating ploy by AJ...to get more money, which he did.

Either way...you lose, either I am right, or else AJ isn't Mr. Spur....as his jersey retirement would indicate...

I am still waiting proof agreed upon at the time the bet was made...either way, I am happy with the results....either I am right, or AJ isn't an iconic Spur...he's a guy who wants to coach the Mavs.


I know...this is the part where you completely contradict yourself by saying Pop didn't think it was a good idea to AJ to coach the Spurs...You've previously admitted I was right and were willing to pay out your end of the losing bet. Did you change your mind about being wrong? Do I need to wear a t-shirt with a quote where you admitted you lost the bet?



Not a fan of the Mavericks...ever.

I like baseball better than basketball...BFD. I played baseball...

Is having a favorite sport some kind of crime or something? A Dallas fan first and foremost is going to preach to Spurs fans about how an ex-player isn't dedicated to the Spurs enough?

Classic.

:rollin

[SequSpur]

Does anybody else want to chime in? I honestly don't see what the argument is.

1. You like AJ cuz he is a "nice" "faithful" guy.
2. You don't like AJ cuz he really wasn't that good and he received the benefit of playing with better players. He didn't make anyone better.

Why the argument?

I noticed no one wants to challenge my objective thinking, cuz you know I'm right. Avery was a "nice" guy on the team. I remember when he left and they had that post game presentation for Elliott or Robinson or whoever the hell it was, it was "nice" and "religious"....

Give me a fucking break already.

[timvp]

Why would you construe that as an attack?

I was just being honest...the same way I am when I put AJ's statements up there for public perusal...

I know that's for some reason wrong in your eyes...nontheless...I stand by my statements. whottt -- always a man of dignity and discretion.



Sure it does...how in the heck are those words of a leader? Uh, those quotes are from after he was gone. He was supposed to remain the leader of the Spurs while he was on the Nuggets?

Seriously?


And he was saying stuff like that here at the end as well...which is why his butt got run out of town. What he say? Called out Chucky Brown. What else?

[whottt]

Go ahead. But also remember to wear a shirt that has his follow up comments where he said Parker

was already better than him at 21 and the multiple times he's praised Manu.

I'm all for it....





Tim Duncan also didn't like Tony Parker at first. Do you still hold that against him?

Link to Tim Duncan saying the Spurs were sending a boy to do a man's job?


By the way...Tim Duncan > Avery Johnson

You won't see me complaining when they retire Duncan's jersey...





Pop and Manu got in arguments when Manu first got here? In fact, after Pop told Manu to do something, Manu famously declined saying, "That's just how I play."

Where are these t-shirts?

Manu>AJ

I won't complain when they retire his jersey either.

And defending yourself is not the same thing as taking a public dump on a young player...or severely over-rating yourself.

[whottt]

whottt -- always a man of dignity and discretion.


It is my fault FWDT sent a boy to do a man's job?





Uh, those quotes are from after he was gone. He was supposed to remain the leader of the Spurs while he was on the Nuggets?

Hey...next time I see you bashing an ex-spur...expect me to hold you accountable for those statements...

Mr. Kerr.

[FromWayDowntown]

Why would you construe that as an attack?

I was just being honest...the same way I am when I put AJ's statements up there for public perusal...

I know that's for some reason wrong in your eyes...nontheless...I stand by my statements.

I don't have any dispute about you using AJ's statements against him -- though I fail to see their relevance in this discussion. I don't know how "You don't see it...you're a lawyer...you see what you want to see" is anything other than a challenge to me personally, and based solely on my profession and NOT upon anything that I've said here.


Sure it does...how in the heck are those words of a leader?

AJ wasn't being asked to lead the Spurs at the time he made those statements.


And he was saying stuff like that here at the end as well...which is why his butt got run out of town.

He also got his ass run out of town because he was beaten out by Terry Porter in the 2000-01 season and because the Spurs realized that having two over-the-hill point guards wasn't going to work on a going forward basis. Now, I'd agree with you that the fact that he was benched (whether after an injury or not) in favor of Terry Porter might be telling of AJ's quality as a player, but I don't think that statements he made after he left town (or your vague allusions to statements he made before he left town) are relevant to determining whether AJ's number should be retired.


You tell me why AJ is going up there....

There are many reasons -- one substantial reason for that is that in all public settings, those who were participating members of the organization between 1994 and 2001 have generally upheld AJ's reputation as the leader of the club. I understand that you dispute that (at least in part because of the irrelevant post-departure statements that you keep citing) but I also understand that the people who were closest to the situation have generally toed the party line in discussing AJ's contributions to the organization in public. This sort of honor is, as much as anything, a PR issue, and there hasn't been much doubt that until 2006, the PR was all on AJ's side.

AJ's honor is also driven, at least in part, by the fact that while he wasn't statistically great as a player, his combined numbers and accomplishments as a Spur outstrip the combined numbers and accomplishments of the two point guards whose numbers are already retired.

[whottt]

Does anybody else want to chime in? I honestly don't see what the argument is.

1. You like AJ cuz he is a "nice" "faithful" guy.
.


TimVP love AJ because AJ is a fucking scrub, who choked, sucked, but put a lot of effort into doing it...

All you ned to do know is that if Timvp was GM of the Spurs, the first 3 players he would draft are AJ, Malik, and Matt Bonner...

Malik, being hte only guy that actually had the ability to impact a game in a major way. But that's not why Timvp would draft him...

[SequSpur]

What does Avery's twangy words have to do with anything? He was a "nice" Spur.

Is that worthy of a retired jersey? That is the question.

Dude wasn't that good.

[timvp]

Hey...next time I see you bashing an ex-spur...expect me to hold you accountable for those statements...Since when does a Dallas fan first and foremost get to tell Spurs fans who is and who isn't remaining loyal to the Spurs' franchise?


Mr. Kerr.It's classic that you defend Kerr with your life, even though he had like 1/10000000th of the impact on the Spurs that AJ had.

Which also brings up how you were Jacque Vaughn's biggest supporter this year (well, after you flip flopped after hating him to begin the year). Vaughn is at best a poor man's AJ ... yet you worship him.

[timvp]

TimVP love AJ because AJ is a fucking scrub, who choked, sucked, but put a lot of effort into doing it...

All you ned to do know is that if Timvp was GM of the Spurs, the first 3 players he would draft are AJ, Malik, and Matt Bonner...

Malik, being hte only guy that actually had the ability to impact a game in a major way. But that's not why Timvp would draft him...Oh man, a tag team duo of whottt and Sequ.

What shall I do? :dramaquee

[SequSpur]

It's quite objective. I think 80% of Spurs fans disagree with this retirement, for whatever reason.

But, it's not a democratic vote. The Spurs have spoken, so why argue? Avery's sorry ass #6 is going in the rafters.. cuz he was a good man. Not because of his play on the court. The Spurs were trying to get rid of his ass every day he played or at least make him a backup. True, that's a fact.

Malik Rose was just who I thought he was. A scrub.

[FromWayDowntown]

Hey...next time I see you bashing an ex-spur...expect me to hold you accountable for those statements...

Mr. Kerr.

That makes absolutely no sense. You're saying that AJ's leadership to the Spurs should be questioned because he didn't act like a Spurs' leader when he went elsewhere.

Aside from the fact that timvp hasn't ever held himself out to be a leader of the Spurs, I'm not sure what a fan bashing an ex-Spur has to do with assessments of leadership exhibited by players. Was AJ just supposed to never speak of the Spurs again, or to only do so in reverent terms? He went elsewhere and when he did, he still had to compete against the Spurs, which meant that he would be asked (naturally) about things taking place with the Spurs. That he spoke stupidly while in that situation does not detract from the fact that his coaches and teammates generally agree that he was a leader while in San Antonio -- what he did while in San Antonio is the only thing that matters to assessing whether his number should be retired.

Again, if you expected AJ to act like a Spurs leader and not try to mix things up with the Spurs once he left, that's ridiculous. If you're going to hold it against him that he did mix things up with the Spurs once he left, that's even more ridiculous.

[timvp]

It's quite objective. I think 80% of Spurs fans disagree with this retirement, for whatever reason.

But, it's not a democratic vote. The Spurs have spoken, so why argue? Avery's sorry ass #6 is going in the rafters.. cuz he was a good man. Not because of his play on the court. The Spurs were trying to get rid of his ass every day he played or at least make him a backup. True, that's a fact.

Malik Rose was just who I thought he was. A scrub.With each post he makes, Sequ lifts AJ's number higher and higher into the rafters.

Thanks.

:hat

[Hemotivo]

maybe the Spurs can add an * to AJ's number
:lol

[SequSpur]

With each post he makes, Sequ lifts AJ's number higher and higher into the rafters.

Thanks.

:hat

No matter what I say or do or care about, Avery's jersey is going into the rafters anyway.

WGAF? So why argue? It's objective. He is the assist leader because of his hall of fame teammates.

Bro, on any other team, his azz would be tearing tickets in the parking lot.

Outside of his time with Drob and Duncan, he didn't do shit. Just like your boy Malik.

[FromWayDowntown]

No matter what I say or do or care about, Avery's jersey is going into the rafters anyway.

There is, perhaps, the most valid point made in this entire thread.

[Obstructed_View]

If Sean Elliott wasn't too afraid to take that last shot we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. AJ might be the first backup point guard to start for a championship team, but I doubt it.

When's Mario Elie's ceremony?

[SRJ]

When's Mario Elie's ceremony?

Mario Elie was a Rocket who played for the Spurs for two years. Why don't we honor Dominique Wilkins or Moses Malone?

[objective]

While I don't mind the jersey retirement, there will always be one big difference in my opinion between Avery Johnson and those who already have their jersey's retired (including Moore) and those who will get retired in the future (TD, Manu, TP, and Bowen).

And that is this:

Everyone else could stand in a crowded AT&T Center or Alamodome and declare into a microphone that no matter what, they'll always be a Spur. That they will be a Spur for life.

That kind of genuine emotion that exists between true Spur greats and the franchise and city is special. It's what Johnny Moore has even though his career was cut short, he IS a Spur for life.

But Avery isn't, at least from what I can tell. And it's not just a matter of now he's in coaching and has a new phase in his career. Avery was never a Spur for life. Even this business of people praising his involvement in the community . . . from my memory, even during his Spurs seasons, Avery's community involvement was always in Houston. That's where Avery's heart was. When it came time to do community work, it was in Houston. When it was time to work out, it was Houston. When it came to where to live, unlike DR and Elliott . . . it was, you guessed it, Houston.

Avery is the one guy who will be in the rafters who I believe would NOT say with pride, "I will always be a Spur." Even if he was out of coaching and doing broadcasting or whatever, that's how it would be.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe come the night of the ceremony Avery will throw out something along the lines of what I'm talking about, beyond what I predict will be a lot of expected praise for David Robinson and Elliott and Pop and the city.

But if I'm right, I think that's a poor thing that all the retirees won't have the same attitude about things.

[objective]

-----

Just an aside about Johnny Moore, of whom I only remember his last season and that not very well:

in 82-83 playoffs, where they lost to the Lakers in the conference finals, Johnny Moore had some incredible numbers. Just straight up ridiculous.

11 games

22.5 points
14.6 assists
4.3 rebounds
2.5 steals
53% total FG shooting
53% 3pt shooting

his assist to turnover ratio was 5.75 to 1
and he had as many steals as he did turnovers in the playoffs

[jcrod]

this sucks, who's next Ellie, Horry, Malik, JJ....give me a break.

[barbacoataco]

yea, Johnny Moore was a better point guard than people give him credit for. At his best he was a much better player than Avery Johnson.

[ShoogarBear]

This is second time in the last month or so you have referred to me as obtuse, Shoog. Have you been watching The Shawshank Redemption?I can't use that word without thinking of the movie. And when did I call you obtuse before?

And for the record, in this case I didn't actually call you obtuse. You would know that if you weren't so, um, wrong.



To clarify my position (albeit a few days late) I think that prior to AJ getting his number retired, there might have been room for debate on Bowen. In all likelihood Duncan, Gino, and Parker will get their numbers hung up as well barring any of them converting to Satanism, signing with Lakers, or setting fire to the Coyote. Of those four players from this championship group you have a no brainer HOFer in Duncan, two guys who could end up there (Parker & Ginobili), and a journeyman who blossomed into an incredible defender with the Spurs.

I'm not hating on Bowen. I'm just saying that just as some had doubts about Elliott getting his number retired because of the gulf of talent between him and guys like Ice and the Admiral, Bowen might have seen similar doubts because of the company he would be in. Retiring #6 removes any sort of room for debate on Bowen. What you said is how I feel about AJ and Johnny Moore. If 00 is up there, then AJ has to be.

If you pull the original thread about this argument long ago, my preference has always been that there be a little high threshold for retiring numbers. Elliott would have been my minimum candidate, with discussion about Kenon and Mitchell.

Once you extend the sentiment criteria down to include the likes of Moore, you've opened the floodgates.

[ShoogarBear]

No matter what I say or do or care about, Avery's jersey is going into the rafters anyway.You could grab onto it and not let go.

[ShoogarBear]

And when did I call you obtuse before?
:lmao Dancing With The Stars.

[The Red Hood]

Did anyone else hear what Bruce said about Avery's jersey retirement, something like "Let him come down here so he can see his jersey next to all our championship banners." I don't know if this is exactly what he said but more less.

[MannyIsGod]

Fuck Avery.

[Obstructed_View]

Mario Elie was a Rocket who played for the Spurs for two years. Why don't we honor Dominique Wilkins or Moses Malone?
How many rings did they win for us again?

[roycrikside]

Hello, first time poster, long time lurker. I do not like this news, at all. What a crappy way to begin the new season. AJ was a mediocre player, he was an asshole to David Robinson ("Jesus is ashamed of you"), he was a prick to both Tony and Manu, and he's turned into an absolute jackass with the Mavs.

Why are we honoring him? The '99 Spurs were the best defensive team in history. 20 starting NBA point guards that year could have won a ring with them. They weren't going to screw it up with Robinson and Duncan and a veteran crew.

Like other people here have already stated, I think this really lowers the standards of the honor. Forget Bowen, that's already a given. We're gonna have to do it for Horry and Malik too. Hell, if we repeat this year, maybe Fab will get a nod too.

[timvp]

Hello, first time poster, long time lurker.Welcome to the forum.

[SenorSpur]

yea, Johnny Moore was a better point guard than people give him credit for. At his best he was a much better player than Avery Johnson.

Amen and Halleujah! :elephant

[smeagol]

Welcome to the forum.
Dude, you seem to be in the minority on this one.

[sandman]

While I don't mind the jersey retirement, there will always be one big difference in my opinion between Avery Johnson and those who already have their jersey's retired (including Moore) and those who will get retired in the future (TD, Manu, TP, and Bowen).

And that is this:

Everyone else could stand in a crowded AT&T Center or Alamodome and declare into a microphone that no matter what, they'll always be a Spur. That they will be a Spur for life.

That kind of genuine emotion that exists between true Spur greats and the franchise and city is special. It's what Johnny Moore has even though his career was cut short, he IS a Spur for life.

But Avery isn't, at least from what I can tell. And it's not just a matter of now he's in coaching and has a new phase in his career. Avery was never a Spur for life. Even this business of people praising his involvement in the community . . . from my memory, even during his Spurs seasons, Avery's community involvement was always in Houston. That's where Avery's heart was. When it came time to do community work, it was in Houston. When it was time to work out, it was Houston. When it came to where to live, unlike DR and Elliott . . . it was, you guessed it, Houston.

Avery is the one guy who will be in the rafters who I believe would NOT say with pride, "I will always be a Spur." Even if he was out of coaching and doing broadcasting or whatever, that's how it would be.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe come the night of the ceremony Avery will throw out something along the lines of what I'm talking about, beyond what I predict will be a lot of expected praise for David Robinson and Elliott and Pop and the city.

But if I'm right, I think that's a poor thing that all the retirees won't have the same attitude about things.

Is there a number currently hanging in the rafters that does not still live in SA? Seriously asking as I have not lived in SA over the last 8 years.

Point on about AJ and Houston. He never adopted SA as "his town" like so many other players. How is that relevant? Well, we are talking about his intangibles and endearing himself to his teammates as the main reasons he is going in the rafters. If he is going up there on the Sentimentality Vote, it should be noted that he could be the only such honored player that did not consider SA as home.