Spurs To Retire Avery Johnson's Number 6

[picnroll]

Still wqiting for timvp's explanation of Pop giving Manu Avery's number and acknowledging that Avery had worn it before. Was Holt on a druken binge while that was happening.

DRob supporting Avery's number being retired? Hell, DRob is such a nice guy he'd support Zarbo's number being retired because his basketball career was tragically cut short by smoking and drinking.

[sandman]

Still wqiting for timvp's explanation of Pop giving Manu Avery's number and acknowledging that Avery had worn it before. Was Holt on a druken binge while that was happening.

DRob supporting Avery's number being retired? Hell, DRob is such a nice guy he'd support Zarbo's number being retired because his basketball career was tragically cut short by smoking and drinking.

Heck, he would probably support Alfrederick Hughes' number being retired, because his basketball career was tragically cut short by a severe case of no talent.

[Extra Stout]

The Spurs, by raising AJ's number to the rafters, acknowledge their place as a minor franchise which by some fluke has won a bunch of NBA titles, rather than as one of the great NBA franchises, whose four titles are a collection exceeded only by those of three other teams. They choose to identify themselves with the Portlands and Dallases of the NBA.

I don't think the Lakers are going to retire Derek Fisher's number, nor the Celtics Danny Ainge's, nor the Bulls John Paxson's. But that's understandable, because those are great franchises in relevant major cities, with citizens who don't get all googly-eyed because a short, plucky, average point guard reminds them of their short, plucky, average selves.

Maybe someday San Antonio can be as discerning as the sprawling world metropolis of Green Bay, whose Packers have twenty-six players in the Hall of Fame and five retired numbers.

[picnroll]

How about raising 6*

Rule of thumb, any player that 20 years from now you have to try to explain to you grandkids who they were and why they had their number retired and it leaves them with a puzzled look on their face skip it.

[smeagol]

The Spurs, by raising AJ's number to the rafters, acknowledge their place as a minor franchise which by some fluke has won a bunch of NBA titles, rather than as one of the great NBA franchises, whose four titles are a collection exceeded only by those of three other teams. They choose to identify themselves with the Portlands and Dallases of the NBA.

I don't think the Lakers are going to retire Derek Fisher's number, nor the Celtics Danny Ainge's, nor the Bulls John Paxson's. But that's understandable, because those are great franchises in relevant major cities, with citizens who don't get all googly-eyed because a short, plucky, average point guard reminds them of their short, plucky, average selves.

Maybe someday San Antonio can be as discerning as the sprawling world metropolis of Green Bay, whose Packers have twenty-six players in the Hall of Fame and five retired numbers.

Ouch!

That nasty shit hurt even me :wow

[SRJ]

The Spurs, by raising AJ's number to the rafters, acknowledge their place as a minor franchise which by some fluke has won a bunch of NBA titles, rather than as one of the great NBA franchises, whose four titles are a collection exceeded only by those of three other teams. They choose to identify themselves with the Portlands and Dallases of the NBA.

I think the actual winning of the titles is more of an identifier than the retired jerseys. Most people across the nation know about the four championships; few know about James Silas.


I don't think the Lakers are going to retire Derek Fisher's number, nor the Celtics Danny Ainge's, nor the Bulls John Paxson's. But that's understandable, because those are great franchises in relevant major cities, with citizens who don't get all googly-eyed because a short, plucky, average point guard reminds them of their short, plucky, average selves.

You would do better not to include the Celtics on that list, unless Don Nelson was a better player than the record suggests. Plus, it is obvious that this jersey retirement isn't reflective of the fans wishes.


Maybe someday San Antonio can be as discerning as the sprawling world metropolis of Green Bay, whose Packers have twenty-six players in the Hall of Fame and five retired numbers.

You can't retire jerseys as easily in football, since a basketball roster is 12-15 and a football roster is 40-50.

[Extra Stout]

You would do better not to include the Celtics on that list, unless Don Nelson was a better player than the record suggests. Plus, it is obvious that this jersey retirement isn't reflective of the fans wishes.
You actually just compared Avery freaking Johnson with a guy who was one of the greatest sixth men ever, whose stats look eerily like those of Manu Ginobili.

I think you just lost.

And the fans' wishes for Avery Johnson's number to be retired is reflective of their being a bunch of small-time rubes.


You can't retire jerseys as easily in football, since a basketball roster is 12-15 and a football roster is 40-50.
The Dallas Cowboys have seventeen players in their Ring of Honor (though their numbers are not officially retired). I notice, though, that they haven't honored Daryl Johnston. But he was a fan favorite, right? I guess fans in Dallas don't get carried away with honor inflation like the little runt town further along I-35 does. I bet if San Antonio fans were in charge, Chad freaking Henning would be in the Ring of Honor.

[SRJ]

You actually just compared Avery freaking Johnson with a guy who was one of the greatest sixth men ever, whose stats look eerily like those of Manu Ginobili.

:lmao

Well, at least you're not overstating things at all. This is literally the first time I have ever heard the phrase "one of the best sixth men ever" in connection with the name "Don Nelson". Frank Ramsey? Sure. John Havlicek? No doubt. Don Nelson was a pretty good scorer off the bench - the Scott Wedman of his time.


And the fans' wishes for Avery Johnson's number to be retired is reflective of their being a bunch of small-time rubes.

Generalize much?

[SRJ]

Another thing, Extra Stout - since when do you care about how this looks from the outside? When Phoenix fans came in with their ratings smack and their asterisks smack, you could not have cared less how it looked. Now all of a sudden, you're worried about a possible podunk factor. Why is that? What's the difference?

[picnroll]

:lmao

Well, at least you're not overstating things at all. This is literally the first time I have ever heard the phrase "one of the best sixth men ever" in connection with the name "Don Nelson". Frank Ramsey? Sure. John Havlicek? No doubt. Don Nelson was a pretty good scorer off the bench - the Scott Wedman of his time.

Obviously a guy who doesn't have the NBA Classics channel.

[sandman]

:lmao

Well, at least you're not overstating things at all. This is literally the first time I have ever heard the phrase "one of the best sixth men ever" in connection with the name "Don Nelson". Frank Ramsey? Sure. John Havlicek? No doubt. Don Nelson was a pretty good scorer off the bench - the Scott Wedman of his time.



Per nba.com:

In 11 seasons with the Celtics, he was a member of five NBA Championship teams (1966, 1968, 1969, 1974 and 1976). His retired uniform #19, honoring his career as one of the game’s greatest “sixth men” was raised to the Boston Garden rafters in 1978.

http://www.nba.com/coachfile/don_nelson/

Not that the NBA or the Celtics know what they are talking about...

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Hell, I wouldn't mind the Spurs retiring #19 for Don Nelson after what he did to the Mavs last year.

[sandman]

Hell, I wouldn't mind the Spurs retiring #19 for Don Nelson after what he did to the Mavs last year.

Hell, that contributed to a championship run as much as AJ's heart/guts/drive/passion/drawl

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Hell, that contributed to a championship run as much as AJ's heart/guts/drive/passion/drawl
Contributions schmontributions, I thought it was just entertaining.

[sandman]

Contributions schmontributions, I thought it was just entertaining.

I won't lie; I watched for the train wreck called the Mavs more than I did for the entertaining style of the Warriors.

[timvp]

Dude, you seem to be in the minority on this one.And?

In case you haven't noticed throughout the years, timvp usually goes out on a limb and is oftentimes in the minority. Yet when someone like whottt gets mad and me and looks over years and years of posts to try to find something I was wrong about, he struggles to do so.

I've been defending AJ against other Spurs fans for like 15 years. You don't think I'm used to all this? Spurs fans wanted a newer and better point guard every year. They said he wasn't a championship level point guard.

I've always said he was. And back then, that take put me in an even smaller minority than you see today. But believe won.

Seriously, how hard is it to not like the head coach of an arch rival team? How easy is it to forget the first championship after winning three more titles? It's not like AJ haters are breaking new ground in their dislike of him. That's taking the easy way out.

The funny thing is that the 1999 championship banner already tells me I was right all those years. #6 will just be more confirmation.

[timvp]

Still wqiting for timvp's explanation of Pop giving Manu Avery's number and acknowledging that Avery had worn it before. Was Holt on a druken binge while that was happening.Explanation? When did you ask for one?

Pop had high hopes for Manu so giving him AJ's number was sign of respect. He didn't say "Here Manu, try to make something out of this number because the previous owner didn't."

But if you really think Don freakin' Harris strong armed Pop into retiring AJ's number, that's an even worse take than the time you said Beno was the best defensive guard on the team. :lmao

I'm still waiting for the explanation on that take :rollin

[smeagol]

And?

I'm just stating a fact which we agree on. If you polled the ST posters and based the #6 jersey retirement on the poll results, there would still be 5 retired jerseys up in the rafters after December 22nd.



Seriously, how hard is it to not like the head coach of an arch rival team?


To be fair, whottt has been hating on AJ well before he became the Mavs head coach.



How easy is it to forget the first championship after winning three more titles?

I don't think this is the reason why most posters don't want AJ's jersey retired.

[picnroll]

Explanation? When did you ask for one?

Pop had high hopes for Manu so giving him AJ's number was sign of respect. He didn't say "Here Manu, try to make something out of this number because the previous owner didn't."

But if you really think Don freakin' Harris strong armed Pop into retiring AJ's number, that's an even worse take than the time you said Beno was the best defensive guard on the team. :lmao

I'm still waiting for the explanation on that take :rollin
Pop obviously had no intention of pushing for retiring Avery's number if he was willing to hand it to Manu. You can slip and slide and squirm and emoticom away but you can't wiggle out of it.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Explanation? When did you ask for one?

Pop had high hopes for Manu so giving him AJ's number was sign of respect. He didn't say "Here Manu, try to make something out of this number because the previous owner didn't."

But if you really think Don freakin' Harris strong armed Pop into retiring AJ's number, that's an even worse take than the time you said Beno was the best defensive guard on the team. :lmao

I'm still waiting for the explanation on that take :rollin

There is two sides to that. It was also a sign of disrespect to Johnson.

And retiring his jersey just cheapens the whole thing. Im waiting for 2! to go up now.

[sandman]

Pop obviously had no intention of pushing for retiring Avery's number if he was willing to hand it to Manu. You can slip and slide and squirm and emoticom away but you can't wiggle out of it.

Rebutting the Don Harris influence angle still doesn't explain why Pop was so willing to give away a number that he now feels needs to be retired. I would still like to understand timvp's take on that whole situation. They knowingly gave away AJ's number, then rescinded it. That's a documented fact. I would just like to know why.

[sandman]

There is two sides to that. It was also a sign of disrespect to Johnson.

And retiring his jersey just cheapens the whole thing. Im waiting for 2! to go up now.

Hell, 2! is in the Mascot HoF. That should be a mortal lock to be in the rafters...

[timvp]

The Spurs, by raising AJ's number to the rafters, acknowledge their place as a minor franchise which by some fluke has won a bunch of NBA titles, rather than as one of the great NBA franchises, whose four titles are a collection exceeded only by those of three other teams. They choose to identify themselves with the Portlands and Dallases of the NBA.Actually, it's the opposite. The small-mindedness of Spurs fans keeps them from actually thinking their players are deserving of recognition. The Spurs have four NBA championships. AJ will be their sixth retired number. That's a pretty damn impressive ratio.

Compare it to other teams:

Atlanta - 1 championship, 3 retired players
Cleveland - 0 championships, 6 retired players
Dallas - 0 championships, 2 retired players
Denver - 0 championships, 5 retired players
Detroit - 2 championships, 7 retired players
Indiana - 0 championships, 4 retired players
Milwaukee - 1 championship, 7 retired players
New Jersey - 0 championships, 6 retired players
New Orleans - 0 championships, 2 retired players
New York - 2 championships, 9 retired players
Philadelphia - 2 championships, 7 retired players
Phoenix - 0 championships, 9 retired players
Portland - 1 championship, 9 retired players
Sacramento - 1 (:rolleyes) championship, 8 retired players
Seattle - 1 championship, 5 retired players
Utah - 0 championships, 6 retired players

Small-minded San Antonians think they aren't deserving of anything. The Spurs have four freakin' championships. Retiring six numbers is hardly a drop in the bucket compared to virtually every other team in the NBA.

It's amazing to me that San Antonio can't realize its a basketball power now. It's okay for the Spurs to spread their wings. No one is going to be offended.

San Antonio is no longer that cow town that you pass through on your trip to Mexico.


I don't think the Lakers are going to retire Derek Fisher's number, nor the Celtics Danny Ainge's, nor the Bulls John Paxson's. But that's understandable, because those are great franchises in relevant major cities, with citizens who don't get all googly-eyed because a short, plucky, average point guard reminds them of their short, plucky, average selves.Uh, which of those guys helped the franchise win their first championship? Which of those guys was the on the court and off the court leader during their first run?

The Spurs aren't going to retire Brent Barry's number or any other role player after the first title. But that's because the foundation was set. The trail was blazed. Now the Spurs know exactly what it takes to win it all.

Once upon a time, that wasn't the case.


Maybe someday San Antonio can be as discerning as the sprawling world metropolis of Green Bay, whose Packers have twenty-six players in the Hall of Fame and five retired numbers.Let's try to keep it within the sport.

Spurs will have six retired players and four championships. A team like the Suns has never done anything, yet no one has a problem with them have nine retired players.

Think big, San Antonio. Think big.

[timvp]

Pop obviously had no intention of pushing for retiring Avery's number if he was willing to hand it to Manu. You can slip and slide and squirm and emoticom away but you can't wiggle out of it.So you are stating that Don Harris strong armed Pop into retiring AJ's number? Is that your take?

And is Beno still the best defensive guard on the team?

Thank you.

[smeagol]

timvp, the ratio of 5 retired jerseys to 4 championships means nothing because 3 of those 4 championships were won in the last 4 years. Most of the players who made those championships a reality are still playing.

Not sure how that statement helps your cause.

[picnroll]

So you are stating that Don Harris strong armed Pop into retiring AJ's number? Is that your take?

And is Beno still the best defensive guard on the team?

Thank you.
No. but if Harris hadn't bitched Avery would be a footnote in Spurs lore and contrary to your lining up Pop as one of your big endorsers of Avery having his number retired it appears that Pop didn't really think it was merited and was willing to give 6 to Manu. Unless of course you think someone was holding a gun to Pop's head and making him offer Manu the number.

and no Beno isn't just as avery still was a sucky PG and dragged Rob's best years down. I can admit a mistake.

[timvp]

I'm just stating a fact which we agree on. If you polled the ST posters and based the #6 jersey retirement on the poll results, there would still be 5 retired jerseys up in the rafters after December 22nd.In the votes that count, it's unanimous.

That's all that matters.


To be fair, whottt has been hating on AJ well before he became the Mavs head coach.whottt also thinks the Coyote meant more to the Spurs than David Robinson. Really want to use him as an example?


I don't think this is the reason why most posters don't want AJ's jersey retired.If AJ wasn't the coach of the Mavs, he'd probably be around 35% on the poll instead of 25%.

[timvp]

timvp, the ratio of 5 retired jerseys to 4 championships means nothing because 3 of those 4 championships were won in the last 4 years. Most of the players who made those championships a reality are still playing.

Not sure how that statement helps your cause.So when this run is over, the Spurs will have 10 retired numbers and at least four championships.

The horror :jack

[timvp]

No. but if Harris hadn't bitched Avery would be a footnote in Spurs loreUh ... do you know what strong arm means?

You basically just said "No. but yes."


and contrary to your lining up Pop as one of your big endorsers of Avery having his number retired it appears that Pop didn't really think it was merited and was willing to give 6 to Manu. Unless of course you think someone was holding a gun to Pop's head and making him offer Manu the number.Manu picked number six. The Spurs gave it to him. Talked about how much AJ meant. When they realized that one day they might want to retire the number, they asked Manu to pick a new number.

It's not brain surgery or the drama that Spurs Nation makes it out to be.


and no Beno isn't just as avery still was a sucky PG and dragged Rob's best years down. I can admit a mistake.But the last time we argued you were telling me Beno was the best defensive guard on the Spurs. Is that no longer the case?

[timvp]

Spurs fans seriously think CIA Pop got strong armed into retiring Avery Johnson's number by Don Harris. That's amazing.

If Pop didn't like something Harris said, he would have snapped his fingers and Harris would have STFU.

To think that a media member is forcing Pop to do something he doesn't want to do is beyond laughable.

[picnroll]

Manu picked number six. The Spurs gave it to him. Talked about how much AJ meant. When they realized that one day they might want to retire the number, they asked Manu to pick a new number.

It's not brain surgery or the drama that Spurs Nation makes it out to be.


Dayamn hope nothing happens to TD this year and they give Splitter his number before "they realized that one day they might want to retire the number".

Now it's my turn to use the emoticom.

:drunk :smokin :spin :lol :lol :rollin

[picnroll]

But the last time we argued you were telling me Beno was the best defensive guard on the Spurs. Is that no longer the case?
Nahh, we've argued since then.

[timvp]

Dayamn hope nothing happens to TD this year and they give Splitter his number before "they realized that one day they might want to retire the number".

Now it's my turn to use the emoticom.

:drunk :smokin :spin :lol :lol :rollinDid you just compare Duncan to AJ?

And you never answered my Beno question . . .

[picnroll]

Beno sucks. But feel free to reference it again anytime we argue

[Tek_XX]

AJ as point guard with DRob=wasted years.

[sandman]

Actually, it's the opposite. The small-mindedness of Spurs fans keeps them from actually thinking their players are deserving of recognition. The Spurs have four NBA championships. AJ will be their sixth retired number. That's a pretty damn impressive ratio.

Compare it to other teams:

Atlanta - 1 championship, 3 retired players
Cleveland - 0 championships, 6 retired players
Dallas - 0 championships, 2 retired players
Denver - 0 championships, 5 retired players
Detroit - 2 championships, 7 retired players
Indiana - 0 championships, 4 retired players
Milwaukee - 1 championship, 7 retired players
New Jersey - 0 championships, 6 retired players
New Orleans - 0 championships, 2 retired players
New York - 2 championships, 9 retired players
Philadelphia - 2 championships, 7 retired players
Phoenix - 0 championships, 9 retired players
Portland - 1 championship, 9 retired players
Sacramento - 1 (:rolleyes) championship, 8 retired players
Seattle - 1 championship, 5 retired players
Utah - 0 championships, 6 retired players



Since you took the time to look it up, how many of these players are either in the HoF or will be once they are eligible?

How many of these players garnered league honors in their careers?

Why are we comparing ourselves to the scrubs of the league?

Lakers: 60 years, 14 titles, but only 7 retired numbers, all of which are in the HoF.

Celtics: 60 years, 16 titles, 19 retired numbers, 13 of which are in the HoF. The others: DJ, JoJo White, Sanders, Nellie, Cedric Maxwell and Reggie Lewis. Maybe not HoF material, but clearly well beyond just average players in the league.

And why can't we compare the team outside of the sport? Are not Spurs fans the first to state that our team is the winningest franchise in all major sports over the last decade?

The Yankees have only retired 16 total numbers in over 100 years, yet have 26 world championships and over 20 players (not to mention managers) in the HoF.

If we are going to say that we are a model franchise, then we should start acting like it. LA/Boston in basketball, Green Bay/Dallas in football, NYY in baseball.

[picnroll]

Did you just compare Duncan to AJ?


Slip sliding away, slip sliding away

[timvp]

Beno sucks. But feel free to reference it again anytime we argueHey, I could have been mean and bumped the thread.

But I like picnroll so I'll let it slide.

[smeagol]

In the votes that count, it's unanimous.

That's all that matters.


Wouldn't it be nice if fans had some kind of say in who's number should be retired?



whottt also thinks the Coyote meant more to the Spurs than David Robinson. Really want to use him as an example?


I don't believe that is what he said, even though ST lore says he did.



If AJ wasn't the coach of the Mavs, he'd probably be around 35% on the poll instead of 25%.

35% still sucks major ass. Manu and Tony would be 99% (there are always a couple of idiots), TD 100%.

[Extra Stout]

Another thing, Extra Stout - since when do you care about how this looks from the outside? When Phoenix fans came in with their ratings smack and their asterisks smack, you could not have cared less how it looked. Now all of a sudden, you're worried about a possible podunk factor. Why is that? What's the difference?
The issue is not that it looks podunk, but rather that it is podunk.

[sandman]

Manu picked number six. The Spurs gave it to him. Talked about how much AJ meant. When they realized that one day they might want to retire the number, they asked Manu to pick a new number.


You make Holt and Pop out to be dumbasses to have never thought about the possibility of retiring the "L'il General" number before letting Manu chose the number. I thought he and Pop were tight...

[Extra Stout]

Well, at least you're not overstating things at all. This is literally the first time I have ever heard the phrase "one of the best sixth men ever" in connection with the name "Don Nelson".
Your insularity is not my problem.

[sandman]

Your insularity is not my problem.

Probably thinks Lenny Wilkins is in the HoF because he was a good coach...

[timvp]

If we are going to say that we are a model franchise, then we should start acting like it. Yeah, because the number of retired jerseys a team has is an indication of whether or not a franchise is a model franchise. What kind of lame take is that?

Being a model franchise is about winning. It's about winning the right way. It's about having quality people throughout the organization.

This stretch of Spurs Basketball is one of the best examples of a model franchise in the history of sport. The Spurs win with dignity. They lose with dignity. Everyone is a class act.

It's a great time to be a Spurs fan. Recognizing the accomplishment of players who helped mold the franchise the right way doesn't take away from that.

[SRJ]

Your insularity is not my problem.

No, but overstating the case of a guy who didn't win any league honors and didn't make an All-Star team is.

If you want to say that Don Nelson wasn't deserving of a jersey retirement, that's consistent with your position on Avery Johnson. However, if your position is that Nelson is deserving and Avery Johnson is not, you should be aware that it's a dubious position.

[timvp]

Wouldn't it be nice if fans had some kind of say in who's number should be retired?Hell no.

This is the same fan base that couldn't sell out a playoff game during the Western Conference Finals. You want to trust them with the retired numbers?

You do that, you better be prepared to have Steve Kerr's number raised to the rafters.

The current system of Pop and the ownership deciding is the perfect way to do it. They know who made a difference in the franchise ... even if fans can't or refuse to acknowledge it.

[smeagol]

Hell no.

This is the same fan base that couldn't sell out a playoff game during the Western Conference Finals. You want to trust them with the retired numbers?

You do that, you better be prepared to have Steve Kerr's number raised to the rafters.

The current system of Pop and the ownership deciding is the perfect way to do it. They know who made a difference in the franchise ... even if fans can't or refuse to acknowledge it.

I said some kind of say, not the ultimate deciders.

[smeagol]

This stretch of Spurs Basketball is one of the best examples of a model franchise in the history of sport. The Spurs win with dignity. They lose with dignity. Everyone is a class act.

Would Avery fit well in today's Spurs?

[timvp]

You make Holt and Pop out to be dumbasses to have never thought about the possibility of retiring the "L'il General" number before letting Manu chose the number. I thought he and Pop were tight...I don't get what you guys think the process is of deciding which numbers players get. Do you guys think there is a big roundtable discussion of all the Spurs players, management and ownership that discusses the pros and cons of giving out certain numbers to certain players?

The reality is the Spurs give new players a to-do list. On that to-do list is a section where the player is to contact the Spurs' equipment manager and let the equipment manager know what number they want to be. That's it. There's no congressional summit. There's no democratic vote involved.

So basically, the Spurs equipment manager (who at the time would have been Commando) got a call from Manu saying he wanted to be number six, so he got out a number six and sewed it on a jersey. That's how it works.

[sandman]

What kind of lame take is that?



I set the standard with the Lakers and Celtics. You set the standard with Cleveland and Atlanta. Yet my take is lame. OK, you win.

I have enjoyed the debating, but quite frankly, AJ is not making it on skills/stats. It is plain and simple just on intangibles, which are subjectively quantified. In other words, it is my opinion against yours. While I respect your opinion, you are full of yourself if you think that your intangibles argument is irrefutable fact.

[sandman]

So basically, the Spurs equipment manager (who at the time would have been Commando) got a call from Manu saying he wanted to be number six, so he got out a number six and sewed it on a jersey. That's how it works.

Well, clearly I was mistaken. I was living out of state when Manu came to the team, so I did not see the press conference, but I had the understanding that the a #6 jersey was presented to him, along with comments regarding the history of who wore the jersey. Did that public interaction not take place?

[picnroll]

Would Avery fit well in today's Spurs?
Depends on whose perspective. Orlando fans, with Duncan on their team, would say yes

[sandman]

Would Avery fit well in today's Spurs?

Only if by "fit well" you mean "fighting Jacque Vaughn for PT"

[SRJ]

I set the standard with the Lakers and Celtics.

Then you are operating on two different standards - All of the retired Lakers jersey's represent HOF players. Seven of Boston's 19 retired jerseys do not represent HOF players.

[timvp]

Well, clearly I was mistaken. I was living out of state when Manu came to the team, so I did not see the press conference, but I had the understanding that the a #6 jersey was presented to him, along with comments regarding the history of who wore the jersey. Did that public interaction not take place?It did but it wasn't the drama that Spurs Nation makes it out to be. The Spurs didn't go looking to disrespect AJ but were thwarted when Big Bad Don Harris came to AJ's rescue like the current SpursTalk fairy tale would tell you.

The Spurs also one time gave #13 to some scrub training camp invite a few years ago before realizing it was retired. The Spurs mispelled Ginobili's last name on his jersey during media day of his rookie season, but we don't hear about that. The Spurs mispelled Udrih's last name when they presented him with his jersey but he was still able to become a lockdown defender. There are no secret messages to all these events. The jersey selection process is a lot less dramatic than some in here seem to believe.

[picnroll]

So basically, the Spurs equipment manager (who at the time would have been Commando) got a call from Manu saying he wanted to be number six, so he got out a number six and sewed it on a jersey. That's how it works.

Yeah I distinctly remember that at the press conference. I distinctly remember Pop mumbling "Oh fuck, look at this, AJ's number. What the hell am I going to do now. Maybe nobody will notice and we can switch it later. Oh shit, did I just mention AJ' sname in the mike. Harris. Hey Don can you help me out here. "

:rollin

[timvp]

Yeah I distinctly remember that at the press conference. I distinctly remember Pop mumbling "Oh fuck, look at this, AJ's number. What the hell am I going to do now. Maybe nobody will notice and we can switch it later. Oh shit, did I just mention AJ' sname in the mike. Harris. Hey Don can you help me out here. "

:rollinOk.

[SequSpur]

I don't get what you guys think the process is of deciding which numbers players get. Do you guys think there is a big roundtable discussion of all the Spurs players, management and ownership that discusses the pros and cons of giving out certain numbers to certain players?

The reality is the Spurs give new players a to-do list. On that to-do list is a section where the player is to contact the Spurs' equipment manager and let the equipment manager know what number they want to be. That's it. There's no congressional summit. There's no democratic vote involved.

So basically, the Spurs equipment manager (who at the time would have been Commando) got a call from Manu saying he wanted to be number six, so he got out a number six and sewed it on a jersey. That's how it works.

I declare Bullshit on this take.

They fricking knew damn well what they were doing. You're in the minority in supporting this event and you're pissed. You have over 100 responses in this topic alone pleading your case and it's still not working.

Avery is not worthy of a jersey retirement, sorry to let you down timvp.

But hey, he is getting it anyway..... not all front spots go to handicapped people you know... there is some discretion.

[smeagol]

Only if by "fit well" you mean "fighting Jacque Vaughn for PT"

I meant "fit well" in a classy organization . . .

[sandman]

Then you are operating on two different standards - All of the retired Lakers jersey's represent HOF players. Seven of Boston's 19 retired jerseys do not represent HOF players.

I have never argued that every retired jersey required an HoF qualifier.

The point was that 100% of Laker retired numbers belong to HoFers.

68% of Celtic retired numbers belong to HoFers. The remainder:

DJ: 5-time All Star and 8-time All-D First or Second Team (2 titles)

JoJo White: All-Rookie Team, All-NBA Second Team twice, 7 time All Star, NBA Finals MVP (2 titles)

Sanders: 13 years w/ Celtics, All-D Second Team, Top 10 All Time Celtic in Games, Rebounds and Minutes (8 titles)

Nellie: One of the NBA orginal 6th man, Top 10 All Time Celtic in Games and Rebounds (5 titles)

Maxwell: Twice led league in FG%, NBA Finals MVP, All Time Celtic leader in FG% (2 titles)

That is not exactly a list to be embarrased about.

After December, the Spurs will stand at 33%.

After the current group of players retire? Only Timmy is a mortal lock; TP needs several more years at current level; Manu gets in for his international play as much if not more than his play with the Spurs; Bruce would be a serious longshot.

So it's not a problem for you that only 4 out of 10 numbers are HoFers?

[timvp]

I declare Bullshit on this take.

They fricking knew damn well what they were doing.So you are in the "Big Bad Don Harris thwarted Pop's masterplan" camp? Makes sense.


You're in the minority in supporting this event and you're pissed.P1ssed? I'm the happiest person in this thread. AJ got the recognition he deserved. What more could I want?

And timvp is oftentimes in the minority but is oftentimes right. You do the math.

[sandman]

And timvp is oftentimes in the minority but is oftentimes right. You do the math.

I'm getting the impression that this is really the issue at hand, not the validity of AJ's number being retired.

Not everything comes down to declaring oneself the winner. On an internet message board.

[timvp]

I'm getting the impression that this is really the issue at hand, not the validity of AJ's number being retired.

Not everything comes down to declaring oneself the winner. On an internet message board.Where did I declare myself the winner? And about what?

That was in response to those trying to say I'm wrong just because I'm in the minority. I was pointing out that being in the minority on an issue != wrong.

[SRJ]

So it's not a problem for you that only 4 out of 10 numbers are HoFers?

No, because there is a precedent around the league in favor of honoring players other than HOFers. Additionally, I like the idea of players who meet other types of standards.

I'm not going to rehash my entire case for Avery Johnson - I've done that at least three times on this thread alone - but I believe in honoring players who exhibit character, hard work, reliability, and persistence. In a word, I place a lot of value on professionalism. Great talents like David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili, and Tony Parker have it - but so do lesser talents like Avery Johnson. And many great talents (Isaiah Rider, Rod Strickland, Allen Iverson, Richard Dumas to name a few) do not.

[sandman]

Where did I declare myself the winner? And about what?

That was in response to those trying to say I'm wrong just because I'm in the minority. I was pointing out that being in the minority on an issue != wrong.

I infered that because you are "often in the minority" and "often right when you are in the minority", that therefore you are right on this subject. I infered this from a few other posts in this thread as well, but your choice of words in this particular post appeared more obvious.

If that is not what you implied, then you have my apologies.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

timvp, you are backed into a bandwagon fallacy and whining about Don Harris now its cute.

You admit that Johnson was bottom tier in talent as a point guard and Johnsons leadership was suspect.

I remember choking to the Rockets and Jazz in the playoffs year after year with Johnson as our leader and i remember all the infighting in the locker room that revolved around the little napolean in his last two years.

so you can sit there and be smug because Pop and DRob likes him but Im not just going to disregard his antics those last two years and his abject failures in his first 6 years.

DRob and Duncan got us that championship in 99. Not Johnson. And even if he had i think honoring someone like that should be because of consistent excellence and Johnson was never consistently excellent.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Where did I declare myself the winner? And about what?

That was in response to those trying to say I'm wrong just because I'm in the minority. I was pointing out that being in the minority on an issue != wrong.

its called a bandwagon logical fallacy. it also works both ways.

[sandman]

No, because there is a precedent around the league in favor of honoring players other than HOFers. Additionally, I like the idea of players who meet other types of standards.

I'm not going to rehash my entire case for Avery Johnson - I've done that at least three times on this thread alone - but I believe in honoring players who exhibit character, hard work, reliability, and persistence. In a word, I place a lot of value on professionalism. Great talents like David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili, and Tony Parker have it - but so do lesser talents like Avery Johnson. And many great talents (Isaiah Rider, Rod Strickland, Allen Iverson, Richard Dumas to name a few) do not.

Not a precedent among teams with Championships. Heck, even the Bulls who won all their championships in an 8-year span only have 4 retired numbers. MJ, Scottie, Love and Jerry Krause.

Quit comparing the Spurs to the mediocrity of the Suns and Blazers.

[timvp]

timvp, you are backed into a bandwagon fallacyBandwagon fallacy? In case you didn't notice, the bandwagon take right now is going against AJ. Not sure what you are talking about.


and whining about Don Harris Again, you are confusing the sides of this argument. Your side of the argument is the one whining about Don Harris. Remember, you guys are saying it's Don Harris' fault that AJ is getting his jersey retired.


You admit that Johnson was bottom tier in talent as a point guard and Johnsons leadership was suspect.Link? :wtf


I remember choking to the Rockets and Jazz in the playoffs year after year with Johnson as our leader and i remember all the infighting in the locker room that revolved around the little napolean in his last two years.Did you also remember the championship?


so you can sit there and be smug because Pop and DRob likes him but Im not just going to disregard his antics those last two years and his abject failures in his first 6 years.I have Pop and Robinson on my side. You have SequSpur. I'm pretty happy with how it stands.


DRob and Duncan got us that championship in 99. Not Johnson. And even if he had i think honoring someone like that should be because of consistent excellence and Johnson was never consistently excellent.Would you rather have consistent excellence out of a player or a championship?

[SRJ]

I remember choking to the Rockets and Jazz in the playoffs year after year with Johnson as our leader

See, I think this sentiment here is typical of the anti-AJ crowd. "When we lost a playoff series, it was because of AJ, but he had nothing to do with the wins."

In 1993, then from 1995-1998 (with Avery as a starter, before the first championship), the Spurs won five playoff series. In all of Spurs history before that, the club had won four: 1979 (with James Silas at PG), 1982 and 1983 (with Johnny Moore at PG), and 1990 (with Rod Strickland at PG). The great Strickland wasn't good enough to prevent a choke against Golden State, a much worse choke than against the Rockets or Jazz.

If Avery Johnson was such a drag on the ticket, the Spurs could not possibly have won so many games during that time. They couldn't have won more playoff series in five seasons then they had in all of the other sixteen. Even if you discount 1998 because of the addition of Duncan, that comes out to four series wins in four seasons against four series wins in fifteen years.

[sandman]

Is this a fairly accurate list of the point guards that came through SA during AJ's tenure?

2000: Chris Carrawell
1999: Terry Porter
1998: Antonio Daniels
1996: Vernon Maxwell
1995: Corey Alexander
1994: Doc Rivers
1993: Chris Whitney

Not a stellar list, but the Spurs were actively trying to get point guards on the roster

[SRJ]

Is this a fairly accurate list of the point guards that came through SA during AJ's tenure?

2000: Chris Carrawell
1999: Terry Porter
1998: Antonio Daniels
1996: Vernon Maxwell
1995: Corey Alexander
1994: Doc Rivers
1993: Chris Whitney

Not a stellar list, but the Spurs were actively trying to get point guards on the roster

I would take Doc Rivers and Vernon Maxwell off the list. Doc was brought in to bolster the bench IIRC, and Maxwell was never a point. I would also add Negele Knight to the list, who played in the 1993-94 season. (I know Avery was gone that year, but had he worked out Avery wouldn't have come back the next year)

[sandman]

If Avery Johnson was such a drag on the ticket, the Spurs could not possibly have won so many games during that time. They couldn't have won more playoff series in five seasons then they had in all of the other sixteen. Even if you discount 1998 because of the addition of Duncan, that comes out to four series wins in four seasons against four series wins in fifteen years.

Yet the Spurs have won their last two championships with marginal talent at the center position. Weak argument that cannot be supported with data.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Is this a fairly accurate list of the point guards that came through SA during AJ's tenure?

2000: Chris Carrawell
1999: Terry Porter
1998: Antonio Daniels
1996: Vernon Maxwell
1995: Corey Alexander
1994: Doc Rivers
1993: Chris Whitney

Not a stellar list, but the Spurs were actively trying to get point guards on the roster
You let out Steve Kerr.

[timvp]

Is this a fairly accurate list of the point guards that came through SA during AJ's tenure?

2000: Chris Carrawell
1999: Terry Porter
1998: Antonio Daniels
1996: Vernon Maxwell
1995: Corey Alexander
1994: Doc Rivers
1993: Chris Whitney

Not a stellar list, but the Spurs were actively trying to get point guards on the rosterDon't forget Steve Kerr.

Kerr was AJ's backup in the 1999 playoffs. People complain about AJ's shooting, yet Kerr shot like 10% and Kerr is one of the best shooters of all-time. Perhaps the offense wasn't geared for great stats from the point guard position.

Nah, that couldn't be it. I don't want to disrupt the Anti-AJ faction. Carry on . . .

[timvp]

Oh and Chris Carrawell was a small forward. Vernon Maxwell was a shooting guard. And there were a lot more point guards than that.

[sandman]

I would take Doc Rivers and Vernon Maxwell off the list. Doc was brought in to bolster the bench IIRC, and Maxwell was never a point. I would also add Negele Knight to the list, who played in the 1993-94 season. (I know Avery was gone that year, but had he worked out Avery wouldn't have come back the next year)

Ah, forgot about Knight. It says something to a PG when your team continues to spend draft picks on more PG's. But according to some, AJ was absolutely indespensable to the team.

[sandman]

Oh and Chris Carrawell was a small forward. Vernon Maxwell was a shooting guard. And there were a lot more point guards than that.

I think I mixed him up with Duhon, who was later. My bad on not keeping my Dukies straight.

[SRJ]

Yet the Spurs have won their last two championships with marginal talent at the center position. Weak argument that cannot be supported with data.

Well, many teams have won championships with marginal talent at center. Most championship teams have at least a competent PG playing the position - those champions that do not are teams like the Bulls, who got their assists from Jordan and Pippen.

[sandman]

Nah, that couldn't be it. I don't want to disrupt the Anti-AJ faction. Carry on . . .

There is a difference between being Anti-AJ and not wanting to ride his jock. But for the sake of supporting your opinion, I understand that you have to classify everyone who disagrees with you in the far extreme.

[timvp]

Ah, forgot about Knight. It says something to a PG when your team continues to spend draft picks on more PG's. But according to some, AJ was absolutely indespensable to the team.The Spurs couldn't get a halfway decent backup point guard while AJ was here. Much less a point guard that could have challenged for a starting spot.

Again, you can blame AJ or you can be thankful that the Spurs at least had a starting quality option. Without AJ, the Spurs probably would have been starting Sleepy Floyd or someone of that ilk.

[SRJ]

It says something to a PG when your team continues to spend draft picks on more PG's.

Knight wasn't a draft pick - he had played at Phoenix before.

Of course, it also says something that none of those guys could beat the terrible Avery Johnson in training camp.

[sandman]

Well, many teams have won championships with marginal talent at center. Most championship teams have at least a competent PG playing the position - those champions that do not are teams like the Bulls, who got their assists from Jordan and Pippen.

So if the Bulls could do it, why do you emphatically state that the Spurs could not have won all those playoff series without AJ?

[sandman]

Knight wasn't a draft pick - he had played at Phoenix before.

Of course, it also says something that none of those guys could beat the terrible Avery Johnson in training camp.

It says that we went many years before having a starting PG that could have started on more than just a few scrub teams in the league...

[SRJ]

So if the Bulls could do it, why do you emphatically state that the Spurs could not have won all those playoff series without AJ?

First of all, I didn't say that they couldn't have won without AJ, let alone emphatically. What I was trying to say is that if AJ was that deficient, their success (such as it was) could not have been so extensive.

But second of all, we had to do it with a PG because we didn't have Michael Jordan or Scottie Pippen playing the 2/3. In 1993, we had Dale Ellis (a shooter only) playing the two and Sean Elliott (a good player, not Scottie Pippen good) playing the three. In 1995, it was Vinny Del Negro (a shooter only) and Elliott. In 1996, ditto. In 1997, Robinson and Elliott missed 119 out of a possible 164 games, thus screwing our season (although blessing our future). In 1998, our 2/3 combo was Jaren Jackson (defensive specialist) and a Sean Elliott/Chuck Person tag team. (Elliott missed 46 games that season).

So to run it like the Bulls, we would have needed a serious talent upgrade at one position (SG) and a serious run of good health (and frankly, some better play) from another (SF). We would also have needed to employ the Triangle offense, which de-emphasizes the traditional PG role.

[dimsah]

What a ridiculous argument. There has not been one good point as to why AJ should have his jersey retired other than he wanted to win a championship really really really really really really bad and he worked hard to get it. Arguments have been about some legend of AJ's behind the scenes locker room leadership.


Regardless of how that sounds I'm not an AJ hater.
I liked Avery the player because he played hard and helped win the first ring, but that doesn't mean his jersey should be hanging next to 50 or 21 when it goes up.



Just because 00 got in doesn't mean that kind of shit has to continue.

Have some pride and reserve those numbers for the franchise changers.

[timvp]

There has not been one good point as to why AJ should have his jersey retired Because Gregg Popovich, Peter Holt, David Robinson and Sean Elliott all agree that Avery Johnson was a huge part of their championship success. There can't be a better point than that.

Should I side with a fan base that shows their appreciation for what the Spurs have accomplished by not selling out a Western Conference Finals playoff game ... or Pop, Holt, Robinson and Elliott?

You decide.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Bandwagon fallacy? In case you didn't notice, the bandwagon take right now is going against AJ. Not sure what you are talking about.

Again, you are confusing the sides of this argument. Your side of the argument is the one whining about Don Harris. Remember, you guys are saying it's Don Harris' fault that AJ is getting his jersey retired.

Link? :wtf

Did you also remember the championship?

I have Pop and Robinson on my side. You have SequSpur. I'm pretty happy with how it stands.

Would you rather have consistent excellence out of a player or a championship?

I have never said anything one way or the other regarding Harris. I know very well that Pop has the local media by the balls. Personally I think its just a stupid PR stunt. The Spurs PR machine isnt exactly stellar.

On one side you say that youre the minority and claim that doesnt make you worng but then you turn around and use the same reasoning when you say that DRob and Elliot agree wit you so therefore that makes you right.

I remember the championship and i remember very well being impressed with Johnson's ability to hit that 15 footer but i remember much more vividly the entreity of his career here.

He was awful from 94-98 and he was a complete assclown from 00-02. He was able to hit that jumpre for one season and Im sorry to me that doesnt make all those years of shit play okay.

Thye are going to do it and im just going to think that its a complete joke. You look at the numbers the lakers ahve retired and yous ee names like Goodrich, Jabbar and Chamberlain.

We get Johnny Moore and Avery fucking Johnson.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Because Gregg Popovich, Peter Holt, David Robinson and Sean Elliott all agree that Avery Johnson was a huge part of their championship success. There can't be a better point than that.

Should I side with a fan base that shows their appreciation for what the Spurs have accomplished by not selling out a Western Conference Finals playoff game ... or Pop, Holt, Robinson and Elliott?

You decide.

So you let other do your thinking for you? Thats nice.

Of course they are going to say that. They arent going to stab their friend in the back.

[timvp]

I have never said anything one way or the other regarding Harris. I know very well that Pop has the local media by the balls. Personally I think its just a stupid PR stunt. The Spurs PR machine isnt exactly stellar.What exactly was a PR stunt? Giving Manu #6 was just a PR stunt to get the Spurs in the news?


On one side you say that youre the minority and claim that doesnt make you worng but then you turn around and use the same reasoning when you say that DRob and Elliot agree wit you so therefore that makes you right.That's the same side. It's just that the minority in this matter has more qualified people in it.


He was awful from 94-98:lol

Yeah, Avery Johnson was awful. Good, logical take there.


You look at the numbers the lakers ahve retired and yous ee names like Goodrich, Jabbar and Chamberlain.How is it the Spurs' fault that they haven't needed an overflowing of Hall of Fame players to win championships? If Goodrich, Kareem or Wilt played for the Spurs, they'd have their jerseys retired, too.

The Spurs' on court and off court emotional leader happened to be a journeyman point guard with little natural basketball talent. However, he played a big role in the first championship and the seasons leading up to the championship, so he's earned the respect of those who matter.

[timvp]

So you let other do your thinking for you? Thats nice.If I let others do my thinking, I'd be with the 70% of fans who don't want AJ's number retired.

[dimsah]

Because Gregg Popovich, Peter Holt, David Robinson and Sean Elliott all agree that Avery Johnson was a huge part of their championship success. There can't be a better point than that.

Should I side with a fan base that shows their appreciation for what the Spurs have accomplished by not selling out a Western Conference Finals playoff game ... or Pop, Holt, Robinson and Elliott?

You decide.
Why do I have to decide between Pop, Robinson or the fans?
If my opinion falls in to one of the categories, then so be it.
I would like the standard to go up.

Hell, I was on the fence about Elliott, and his accomplishments exceed AJs. That doesn't mean I don't think they were integral parts of a championship team.

[Holt's Cat]

First off, this isn't the Naismith Hall of Fame. It's a team honoring the players who were important to their history. I'm sure there aren't many here who would have a problem with Bowen honored in similiar fashion. If you were a Spurs fan before their first championship you know what AJ meant to this team. If you weren't, you just focus on the fact that he's the Mavs' head coach (though it seems odd that such an inferior basketball mind was able to dispatch a Pop coached Spurs team with TD on it).

Then there's whottt, the biggest moron of all on the internets. If you find yourself in agreement with him, seek professional help immediately.

[Holt's Cat]

Anyways, to sum up this thread: if AJ was HC of the Hawks nobody would think twice about AJ's # being retired.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

What exactly was a PR stunt? Giving Manu #6 was just a PR stunt to get the Spurs in the news?

That's the same side. It's just that the minority in this matter has more qualified people in it.

:lol

Yeah, Avery Johnson was awful. Good, logical take there.

How is it the Spurs' fault that they haven't needed an overflowing of Hall of Fame players to win championships? If Goodrich, Kareem or Wilt played for the Spurs, they'd have their jerseys retired, too.

The Spurs' on court and off court emotional leader happened to be a journeyman point guard with little natural basketball talent. However, he played a big role in the first championship and the seasons leading up to the championship, so he's earned the respect of those who matter.

Silas, Gervin and Robinson all say hello. Johnson cant even hold those guys jock.

He averaged 8 points and 5 assists for his career and statistcally he was comparable to:

1991-92. Wes Matthews, 1984-85
1992-93. John Bagley, 1984-85
1993-94. Travis Best, 1996-97
1994-95. Michael Adams, 1992-93
1995-96. Michael Adams, 1992-93
1996-97. Rickey Green, 1984-85
1997-98. Geoff Huston, 1981-82
1998-99. Sherman Douglas, 1993-94
1999-00. Damon Stoudamire, 1998-99
2000-01. Damon Stoudamire, 2006-07

Like I said he was awful.

its also convenint how you tout that Pop is not above reproach when you criticise like oyu were crowing about with the Scola trade and other moves but now its all you got and your clining to it desperately.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

First off, this isn't the Naismith Hall of Fame. It's a team honoring the players who were important to their history. I'm sure there aren't many here who would have a problem with Bowen honored in similiar fashion. If you were a Spurs fan before their first championship you know what AJ meant to this team. If you weren't, you just focus on the fact that he's the Mavs' head coach (though it seems odd that such an inferior basketball mind was able to dispatch a Pop coached Spurs team with TD on it).

Then there's whottt, the biggest moron of all on the internets. If you find yourself in agreement with him, seek professional help immediately.

Spare me. i remeber a team taht would consistently lose to Houston and Utah for years. Avery Johnson = second round playoff exit.

I also remember the Spurs trying to feed us all that little general crap. My Johnson derision started in 94.

[MrChug]

IMO if this is true, then it would be an injustice for Bruce Bowen to not get his number retired as well.

I agree...along with Manu and Tony (if they retired 2 championships ago).

[picnroll]

Because Gregg Popovich, Peter Holt, David Robinson and Sean Elliott all agree that Avery Johnson was a huge part of their championship success. There can't be a better point than that.

Avery contributed to a championship just like Jaren Jackson did and Steve Kerr and Stephen Jackson and Speedy Claxton and Malik Rose and Robert Horry and Nazr Mohammed and .... Show me the link to where Popovich, Holt, Robinson and Elliott said Avery was the foundation to the Spurs' championships as you've claimed.

[SRJ]

Thye are going to do it and im just going to think that its a complete joke. You look at the numbers the lakers ahve retired and yous ee names like Goodrich, Jabbar and Chamberlain.

We're not the Lakers.

We spend money smartly, we develop our superstars (not buy them from Milwaukee, Orlando, Philadelphia), and we honor the players that represented the franchise the best way possible.

In LA, they don't even honor their franchise history. Did you see the retired Lakers list? No Mikan, no Pollard, no Mikkelsen, no Slater Martin. It's as though the five championships that they have the gall to count as their own don't exist when it comes to honoring those who put those first five flags up there.

Either claim nine championships or honor those who gave you the first five. That's how it should go, but in LA they want it both ways.

I'm glad we're not doing things the way they do. Silas and Gervin would be footnotes in our history if we did.

[Holt's Cat]

Spare me. i remeber a team taht would consistently lose to Houston and Utah for years. Avery Johnson = second round playoff exit.

I also remember the Spurs trying to feed us all that little general crap. My Johnson derision started in 94.


So David Robinson shouldn't have been so recognized too? Thanks.

[Holt's Cat]

We're not the Lakers.

We spend money smartly, we develop our superstars (not buy them from Milwaukee, Orlando, Philadelphia), and we honor the players that represented the franchise the best way possible.

In LA, they don't even honor their franchise history. Did you see the retired Lakers list? No Mikan, no Pollard, no Mikkelsen, no Slater Martin. It's as though the five championships that they have the gall to count as their own don't exist when it comes to honoring those who put those first five flags up there.

Either claim nine championships or honor those who gave you the first five. That's how it should go, but in LA they want it both ways.

I'm glad we're not doing things the way they do. Silas and Gervin would be footnotes in our history if we did.


No shit. Spurs fans seem to think they've always been in the penthouse.

[Holt's Cat]

Avery contributed to a championship just like Jaren Jackson did and Steve Kerr and Stephen Jackson and Speedy Claxton and Malik Rose and Robert Horry and Nazr Mohammed and .... Show me the link to where Popovich, Holt, Robinson and Elliott said Avery was the foundation to the Spurs' championships as you've claimed.

AJ was an integral part of that first title team. People also seem to forget that he was a pretty damn solid point guard or that he was the one with the balls on the team when DRob and Elliott wilted in the pre-TD postseasons.

[sandman]

We're not the Lakers.

We spend money smartly, we develop our superstars (not buy them from Milwaukee, Orlando, Philadelphia), and we honor the players that represented the franchise the best way possible.

In LA, they don't even honor their franchise history. Did you see the retired Lakers list? No Mikan, no Pollard, no Mikkelsen, no Slater Martin. It's as though the five championships that they have the gall to count as their own don't exist when it comes to honoring those who put those first five flags up there.

Either claim nine championships or honor those who gave you the first five. That's how it should go, but in LA they want it both ways.

I'm glad we're not doing things the way they do. Silas and Gervin would be footnotes in our history if we did.

Actually, the Lakers have a single banner that honors the 5-6 HoF players by number from the Minny days. Even though those numbers are not retired, they are honored with a banner.

[SRJ]

Actually, the Lakers have a single banner that honors the 5-6 HoF players by number from the Minny days. Even though those numbers are not retired, they are honored with a banner.

So they treat the foundation of their championship history like the Spurs treat division championships. Nice.

[sandman]

So they treat the foundation of their championship history like the Spurs treat division championships. Nice.

Geeze, make up our mind. You complained that they were not honored. When I point out to you that they are, you complain that it is not the right kind of honor.

[whottt]

AJ was an integral part of that first title team. People also seem to forget that he was a pretty damn solid point guard or that he was the one with the balls on the team when DRob and Elliott wilted in the pre-TD postseasons.


Take note people...this is why AJ should never have had his jersey retired.

You OCD crack addled halfwit...


Just STFU...I think Rasho Nesteroivc got to the line more than AJ...that's heart for you.


You idea of heart is John Stockton having free regn to kick Drob in the balls 15 times per game, because a mere flinch from him is enough to keep AJ on the other side of the court.


David Robinson took one of the great physical poundings in NBA history his first 7 years in the NBA, comparable only to those recieved by Shaq and Wilt, in large part due to the sacks of shit lining up at guard for him...his career as a Superstar ended because he played through a hernia...he played his last 2 seasons with a back condition that left him with no feeling in his legs at times...and he was the guy guarding Shaq.


AJ's toughness consisted of picking fights with young players, in the shower, and out.


How dare you even put DROB and AJ in the same sentence when it comes to heart and toughness...


Being a bossy nag doesn't make you tough.










You fucking crack brained AJ fans...


You think we wouldn't have won a title without AJ?


Turn in you fucking brains...


If we'd had even a legitimate second string caliber NBA PG, we'd have won two.



David Robinson had more heart and tougness in his sleep than AJ ever had on his best day.


Just because he didn't define himself by becoming an NBA champion doesn't mean he didn't take the hits...


Drob took 10 times the pounding Duncan has taken to this point...


The biggest difference between DRob and Duncan?


Duncan would have told the Spurs to get him a fucking real PG, instead of a borderline 3rd string piece of crap...or he was gone. In fact he did just that...




Now go switch nics...because it's what guys with heart and tougness do.

[SRJ]

Geeze, make up our mind. You complained that they were not honored. When I point out to you that they are, you complain that it is not the right kind of honor.

Should George Mikan not be retired in the same manner as Wilt Chamberlain?

Mikan was the first marquee attraction in NBA history and the centerpiece of the first NBA dynasty. In some arenas, the marquee would read "George Mikan vs (__home team____)". The only dynasties in NBA history to win five titles in six seasons are Mikan's Lakers and Russell's Celtics.

Yes, the talent level was a lot lower in the middle fifties compared the late sixties. Yes, the schedule was shorter. And yes, the playoffs weren't as long as they would become. But they dominated their competition to an almost unequaled degree. And for that, they and their titles deserve to be on full display right alongside Wilt, Jabbar, West, Magic, 1972, 1980, 1982, and so on.

But that's not how they do it down there. Oh, but they sure like to claim fourteen titles!

[picnroll]

AJ was such an outstanding leader that the guy responsible for the Spurs titles coudn't stand him and would likely be playing for the Magic if Avery had remained on the Spurs when he was a free agent.

[ShoogarBear]

I don't think the Lakers are going to retire Derek Fisher's number, nor the Celtics Danny Ainge's, nor the Bulls John Paxson's. But that's understandable, because those are great franchises in relevant major cities, with citizens who don't get all googly-eyed because a short, plucky, average point guard reminds them of their short, plucky, average selves.Fail.

The Celtics have retired Don Freaking Nelson, Jim Freaking Loscutoff, and Cedric Freaking Maxwell.

Ainge will get his, guran-damn-tee.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Should George Mikan not be retired in the same manner as Wilt Chamberlain?

Mikan was the first marquee attraction in NBA history and the centerpiece of the first NBA dynasty. In some arenas, the marquee would read "George Mikan vs (__home team____)". The only dynasties in NBA history to win five titles in six seasons are Mikan's Lakers and Russell's Celtics.

Yes, the talent level was a lot lower in the middle fifties compared the late sixties. Yes, the schedule was shorter. And yes, the playoffs weren't as long as they would become. But they dominated their competition to an almost unequaled degree. And for that, they and their titles deserve to be on full display right alongside Wilt, Jabbar, West, Magic, 1972, 1980, 1982, and so on.

But that's not how they do it down there. Oh, but they sure like to claim fourteen titles!

it also wasnt the NBA. It was the BBA or the NBL and they were in another city.

Fact is that the Lakers got one thing right and that was to make retiring numbers mean something and not do it for scrubs.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

AJ was an integral part of that first title team. People also seem to forget that he was a pretty damn solid point guard or that he was the one with the balls on the team when DRob and Elliott wilted in the pre-TD postseasons.

statsitcally he was Travis Best and at his very best he played on a level with Stoudamire for a year.

You can call that solid and ill call it shitty.

And as whott pointed out, johnsons idea of toughness was attacking naked men for holding hom accountable for his mistakes and generally being an asshole while Elliott played through uremic poisoning and DRob had a back condition that would cripple most men.

Johnson had one season where he was solid. Other than that he was awful. When your stats compare to Travis Best and a bunch of carreer backups then that player shouldnt be starting much less having their number retired.

[Holt's Cat]

Bruce Bowen's jersey # will be retired by the Spurs one day and his Spurs' career stats put him on par with Aaron McKie. Oh wait, McKie had better stats.

TD v AJ is one of the greatest forum urban legends.

Yes whottt, DRob couldn't carry a team on his own to a title. He's not the only NBA superstar and Top 50 player of all time in that category, so relax and stop clutching your stuffed Coyote doll.

[sandman]

Fail.

The Celtics have retired Don Freaking Nelson, Jim Freaking Loscutoff, and Cedric Freaking Maxwell.

Ainge will get his, guran-damn-tee.

Um, Loscutoff did not have his number retired. Even though he won 7 Titles with the team, his #18 was later worn by Dave Cowens. The Celtics retired #18 in honor of Cowens, not Loscutoff.

Cedric Maxwell was a Finals MVP, the Celtics All Time FG% Leader, and was arguably the biggest locker room guy of the two championship teams that he was on.

Don Nelson is a bit more subjective, but if the NBA and the Celtics consider him as one of the models of what would become the "sixth man", then who am I to argue. Oh, and he was on 5 title teams.

[sandman]

Why doesn't anyone question the Rockets retiring Drexler's number?

[O-Factor]

It be great to see AJ's number retired....then we beat the living snot out of the Mavs.

[ShoogarBear]

Um, Loscutoff did not have his number retired. Even though he won 7 Titles with the team, his #18 was later worn by Dave Cowens. The Celtics retired #18 in honor of Cowens, not Loscutoff.Look up in the rafters in Boston and see this:

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/a/a9/CelticsLOSCY.png

They did this because Cowens had already worn the number after him. But it's an acknowledgment that they would have retired the number in honor of Loscutoff if Cowens hadn't worn it.


Cedric Maxwell was a Finals MVP, the Celtics All Time FG% Leader, and was arguably the biggest locker room guy of the two championship teams that he was on. Also a coke user who left the Celtics on bad terms. But I guess you're saying stuff like that should override contributions to the team? I can agree with that. Hence, Avery.


Don Nelson is a bit more subjective, but if the NBA and the Celtics consider him as one of the models of what would become the "sixth man", then who am I to argue. Oh, and he was on 5 title teams."Who are you to argue?" So then why are you arguing about the Spurs decision to retire Avery's number?

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Not to go too far off topic, but what's the story about taking #18 back off the shelf for Cowens and then hanging it up again? Had it been Cowens number all his life and he wouldn't play without it or what?

[ChumpDumper]

I like the idea of retiring nicknames.

[ShoogarBear]

Not to go too far off topic, but what's the story about taking #18 back off the shelf for Cowens and then hanging it up again? Had it been Cowens number all his life and he wouldn't play without it or what?They didn't take it off the shelf. They didn't make the decision to retire it until after they had already given the number to Cowens (and, if I recall correctly, by that time it was apparent that Cowens was eventually going to get his number reitred).

[spurs2008]

They might as well retire it. So, he just have to stare his jersey hangin' when his Mavs team play our SPURS. :) Join the SPURS team to get a ring. :p

[sandman]

"Who are you to argue?" So then why are you arguing about the Spurs decision to retire Avery's number?

1. Maybe because one happened 30 years ago in a different era of the game with one of the players that defined what is such an important role that the NBA gives an award to the player who best exemplifies that role for their team?

2. Outside of the leader intangible, being a really, really, really good guy who really, really, really worked his butt off to become an average NBA point guard, and being one of the 12 guys on the first championship team for the franchise, what else is there? I just KNOW that someone is going to try to use this same argument to get Malik's number in the rafters as well.

3. Just because Holt and Pop say it, doesn't mean it is right. I recall most everyone agreeing that the Scola trade this summer was one of their worst moves. If I would have agreed with them on that, I would have been labeled a dumbass. If I don't agree with them now, I am labeled a dumbass.

4. I didn't like AJ as an active player, and I don't like him any more just for posterity sake. Don't want to, don't have to, can't make me.

5. This is all fodder and filler until the games start. Heck, I would rather have threads that were hundreds of posts long discussing this with other Spurs fans who may passionately disagree with me than to read one more Scola thread.

[sandman]

Not to go too far off topic, but what's the story about taking #18 back off the shelf for Cowens and then hanging it up again? Had it been Cowens number all his life and he wouldn't play without it or what?

Not sure that the Celtics would cave in that easily to a rookie...

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Not sure that the Celtics would cave in that easily to a rookie...
That's precisely why I asked. The whole thing sounded kind of odd to me. I probably could have found this out on my own but I trust the BB IQ of those here more than Google.

[sandman]

That's precisely why I asked. The whole thing sounded kind of odd to me. I probably could have found this out on my own but I trust the BB IQ of those here more than Google.

Everything that I can find on the subject says that he declined to have his number retired so that future players could wear it. One would have to assume that it was not "un-retired" when Cowans was drafted, but rather was simply an available number. From all I can gather the #18 was never raised for Loscutoff, that the LOSCY banner was the original tribute.

[whottt]

Myth#1 being shoveled around frequently to boost AJ's case:

That AJ was a better PG than Moore. He wasn't. He was not a better PG than Johnny Moore. He also didn't have his career end in a tragic fashion(medically).

Johnny Moore is more deserving of jersey retirement than AJ. He was a more of a career Spur, he was a better PG, he is more sympathetic figure.


Myth #2:

That giving AJ's jersey to Manu was just an ooops.
Spurs knew in advance Manu wanted that number. They knew it was his number. They knew Manu was coming, they knew he was getting that number. They knew it was AJ's number. Pop knew it was AJ's number.


They also knew Manu had 15 thousand times the talent of AJ.

This isn't some case of giving a jersey out for practice(which incidentally, teams do often with potential retired jerseys)



Myth #3

That Don Harris perfectly executes the Spurs wishes.


This is the biggest load of crap to be served up in this thread...


Someone needs to listen to the Pop show sometime...


TPark could figure out that about 90% of the questions asked by Harris are going to annoy the shit out of Pop as stupid pointless questions, Pop has probably mentioned not to be asked these sorts of questions 15 trillion times off air...and Harris still asks them multiple times every show.



Even if it's true...Harris is an AJ fascist...these people cannot be trusted when it comes to AJ VS the Spurs. They chose AJ first every time...

[whottt]

They didn't take it off the shelf. They didn't make the decision to retire it until after they had already given the number to Cowens (and, if I recall correctly, by that time it was apparent that Cowens was eventually going to get his number reitred).



Link to Loscutoff playing for 15 different teams in his career(because he sucked)?

Oh wait...he's not like AJ.

Link to Loscutoff saying McHale and Parish were boys being sent to do man's jobs?

Oh wait, he's not like AJ.

Link to Loscutoff going after young players in the shower screaming it's mah team, it's mah team?

Oh wait, he's not like AJ.

Link to Loscutoff coaching the Lakers or Knicks?

Oh wait, he't not like AJ.

[ShoogarBear]

Bill Sharman coached the Lakers. To a championship, no less. whotttBoston has been trying to get his number taken down for 35 years now.

[whottt]

Scrubs with retired jerseys usually played their entire careers with those teams...at the very least 80%.

AJ played 19 years and about half that time was spent with other teams...including some of our most hated rivals.

No Mr. Spur case for AJ.
No symapthy case for AJ.
No talent case for AJ.

[whottt]

Bill Sharman coached the Lakers. To a championship, no less. whotttBoston has been trying to get his number taken down for 35 years now.



Bill Sharman is a HOF'er who spent the maximum number of years he possibly could have with the Celtics.

AJ, not a HOF'er, not a Mr. Spur.

[whottt]

It's funny...

There are 3 basic criterias for jersey retirement...

Greatness
Sympathy
Career team player/Beloved scrub/bleeds team colors


AJ meets none of those...


So what they do is find a guy like oh say...Johnny Moore, who meets 2 of those 3...and they'll argue AJ's merit on superiority to Moore in the only criteria that Moore doesn't meet....ignoring the 2 he does.

And the funny thing is...AJ doesn't really even beat Moore out in the one category Moore doesn't meet...they ignore he was crippled and never even really played in his prime...they ignore that his best years were better than AJ's...and Moore actually was the best in the league at something, while AJ never was.


It's really funny...

[objective]

I have to reiterate my previous point, which fits in with what whottt has been posting.

Avery is the one Spur whose jersey will be hanging up who is not a San Antonian.

Because he never adopted San Antonio as his home town as Gervin has, Moore has, Robinson has, Duncan has, Manu has, Bowen has, Parker has (though Eva being from south texas probably helps). He never put down roots here.

Avery's heart never left Houston. His community work was done in Houston. His home was in Houston.

So how does that help Avery's case?

the 99 team would already have 3 retired jerseys (DR, Elliott, and TD).

Never a San Antonian. Never a happy self-declared lifelong Spur.

Avery Johnson is as much a San Antonian and lifelong Spur as Mo Cheeks.

[whottt]

I understand part of the mindset of AJ fans...

They simply love the underdog, they love the idea of the impossible dream of AJ coming from nothing with no talent...to have his jersey hanging up there with icons, simply out of determination to succeed and an unwillingness to give up...


I do get that aspect of the mindset...

I get that timvp is actually an incredibly nice guy, who runs a wonderful Spursboard, and you can see how much he loves AJ and that dream...

Belive me...at the back of mind it bothers me when I rip someone I know is probably his favorite player mercilessly...with the hospitality he has shown me...it bothers me even more because I really don't hate AJ, I really and truly don't hate him, and prior to the end of his time here with this team....I had a similar view of AJ.


But what I don't get...is the seeming desire and joy that AJ fans get at throwing in and everyone from David Robinson, to the crippled Johnny Moore, to an innocent Manu, under the bus...in the desire to see that dream realized...nor do I get the absolute free pass that AJ has been given to be a jerk since leaving here....


I just wish AJ actually resembled their idealized vision of him...and I wish their methods of elevating him, were in the spirit of their idealized vision of him...



In any case, it's' just a jersey...AJ was a part of those championship teams, and he was the best PG Drob had in his prime, and it was fun watching him make a fool of Damon Stoudamire. I was pulling for him as much as anyone.

As long as AJ actually acts touched by the gesture, and like he was proud of being a Spur, instead of acting like it's something owed to him and he was the one doing the Spurs a favor...I can live with it. You don't deserve it AJ...so don't act like you do.

And I know as the coach of the Mavs he can't afford to be a nice and humble guy...I can respect that, as he long as he keeps it clean where the Spurs are concerned...if he wants to mean something to us...he has to show us that we mean something to him. This is a huge honor they are giving him. Just be deserving of it in spirit where the Spurs are concerned AJ...that's all I am asking.

And AJ fans...get freaking real.

[ChumpDumper]

I have to reiterate my previous point, which fits in with what whottt has been posting.

Avery is the one Spur whose jersey will be hanging up who is not a San Antonian.

Because he never adopted San Antonio as his home town as Gervin has, Moore has, Robinson has, Duncan has, Manu has, Bowen has, Parker has (though Eva being from south texas probably helps). He never put down roots here.

Avery's heart never left Houston. His community work was done in Houston. His home was in Houston.

So how does that help Avery's case?

the 99 team would already have 3 retired jerseys (DR, Elliott, and TD).

Never a San Antonian. Never a happy self-declared lifelong Spur.

Avery Johnson is as much a San Antonian and lifelong Spur as Mo Cheeks.James Silas lives in Austin. Just sayin'.

[whottt]

James Silas lives in Austin. Just sayin'.

No pro team in Austin. Austin is considered a Spurstown based on close geographical location to SA and NBDL affiliation.

[ShoogarBear]

Makin up shit as I go along.

[timvp]

AJ was such an outstanding leader that the guy responsible for the Spurs titles coudn't stand him and would likely be playing for the Magic if Avery had remained on the Spurs when he was a free agent.Um, yeah, you might want to check your dates. AJ was on the Spurs when Duncan re-signed.

[Holt's Cat]

Scrubs with retired jerseys usually played their entire careers with those teams...at the very least 80%.

AJ played 19 years and about half that time was spent with other teams...including some of our most hated rivals.

No Mr. Spur case for AJ.

I can think of no Spurs player who better exemplified what the Spurs were about at the start of the Popovich coaching era than AJ. Absurd assertion on your part.



No symapthy case for AJ.


He didn't need anyone's sympathy.

You, OTOH...




No talent case for AJ.

Only the all-time NCAA assists leader who had an 8+ apg average across multiple seasons.

[sandman]

Only the all-time NCAA assists leader who had an 8+ apg average across multiple seasons.

AJ averaged over 8 assists per game twice in his career. Twice.

And his NCAA assist record is for the highest average in a season at 13.3 during his senior year, not for total assists. In the SWAC which has such powerhouses as Prairie View A&M, Arkansas-Pine Bluff and Alabama A&M.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Bruce Bowen's jersey # will be retired by the Spurs one day and his Spurs' career stats put him on par with Aaron McKie. Oh wait, McKie had better stats.

TD v AJ is one of the greatest forum urban legends.

Yes whottt, DRob couldn't carry a team on his own to a title. He's not the only NBA superstar and Top 50 player of all time in that category, so relax and stop clutching your stuffed Coyote doll.

Bowen has been on the NBA All Defensive team for about the past 7 years. Hes widely considered one of the if not the best perimeter defenders in the NBA.

If it wasnt for that then youd would be right Bowen wouldnt deserve to get his numberr retired. its called consistent excellence. Bowen has been one of the best defenders for the better part of a decade. That was him shutting down Vince Carter and Marion and James and Anthony and anyone else they ever put in front of him year after year and chamionship after championship.

Whats Johnson done? 8 APG a couple of times and attack a naked teammate? Not turn the ball over too much?

Its not even close.

maybe if they came up with an All NBA no accountability asshole list he would be at the top there.

[timvp]

Myth#1 being shoveled around frequently to boost AJ's case:

That AJ was a better PG than Moore. He wasn't. He was not a better PG than Johnny Moore. He also didn't have his career end in a tragic fashion(medically).

Johnny Moore is more deserving of jersey retirement than AJ. He was a more of a career Spur, he was a better PG, he is more sympathetic figure. I've watch a lot of games recently in which Moore played for the Spurs. He was pretty good player. However, I do understand why a lot of old school Spurs fans never really defend his legacy. He wasn't as good as his stats look today.

I'd say the 1984-85 season was Moore's best season. He averaged 12.8 points and 10.0 assists. That looks pretty damn good ... until you look into it further.

The '86 team had Moore, Gervin, Gilmore, Mitchell, Banks and Robertson. All were healthy virtually the entire season, yet the team finished 41-41. And if you watched games of that year (Moore's career year), Moore was at best the fourth best player on the team. No one can watch games from that year and say Moore was a better player than Mitchell. No way.

And look at his numbers again: 12.8 points and 10.0 assists. That's nice until you realize that the team that year averaged 115 points per game.

Compare that to the slow down era AJ played in (in '99, the Spurs averaged 92 points per game, for example). Even with much fewer possessions per game, AJ's career year of 13.1 points and 9.6 assists per game matches up rather well. And that's not even adjusting AJ's numbers to match the possessions that Moore played. If you did that, AJ's numbers would blow Moore's numbers away.

Now, even if you want to call the stats a draw, which is being nice to Moore, you can't even begin to compare the team's performance. Moore had some very good teammates, yet never did much in his most productive years. AJ, on the other hand, helped bring in the franchise's first championship.

I feel bad that Moore's career was cut short but there's no way to conclusively say Moore was the better player. You certainly can't say that Moore meant more to the Spurs in a historical sense.

To put it in further perspective, I'd say AJ was closer to as good as Sean Elliott than Moore was compared to Mitchell. Elliott > AJ. Mitchell >>> Moore.

[timvp]

Myth #2:

That giving AJ's jersey to Manu was just an ooops.
Spurs knew in advance Manu wanted that number. They knew it was his number. They knew Manu was coming, they knew he was getting that number. They knew it was AJ's number. Pop knew it was AJ's number. False. Manu called the equipment manager and told him he wanted #6.



Myth #3

That Don Harris perfectly executes the Spurs wishes.


This is the biggest load of crap to be served up in this thread...


Someone needs to listen to the Pop show sometime...


TPark could figure out that about 90% of the questions asked by Harris are going to annoy the shit out of Pop as stupid pointless questions, Pop has probably mentioned not to be asked these sorts of questions 15 trillion times off air...and Harris still asks them multiple times every show. :lmao :lmao

That seriously might be the funniest thing I've ever read on the internet. Harris is Pop's lapdog. If Pop asks Harris to bark, Harris asks how loud.

The Pop Show questions are a joke. You can listen to an entire Pop show and not learn anything because the questions are so pointless. Well, that's if you can even call them questions. Harris usually just makes a statement and asks Pop for his opinion on that statement.

I can't stop laughing at the thought they you are trying to portray Harris as some sort of renegade reporter out to get Pop. Harris is probably the most CIA controlled media member in town. Actually, not probably, he is the most CIA controlled media member in town.

[timvp]

I have to reiterate my previous point, which fits in with what whottt has been posting.

Avery is the one Spur whose jersey will be hanging up who is not a San Antonian.

Because he never adopted San Antonio as his home town as Gervin has, Moore has, Robinson has, Duncan has, Manu has, Bowen has, Parker has (though Eva being from south texas probably helps). He never put down roots here.

Avery's heart never left Houston. His community work was done in Houston. His home was in Houston.

So how does that help Avery's case?

the 99 team would already have 3 retired jerseys (DR, Elliott, and TD).

Never a San Antonian. Never a happy self-declared lifelong Spur.

Avery Johnson is as much a San Antonian and lifelong Spur as Mo Cheeks.This post has so many errors I couldn't even break it down into sections. I guess I'll just number number them...

1) AJ owned and still owns a home in San Antonio. It is true that he lives in Sugarland ... but with family in Louisiana, it makes sense. I don't think it's a crime to live outside of San Antonio's city limits.

2) AJ did a huge amount of community work in San Antonio. Outside of David Robinson, he might be next in line in terms of players working in the San Antonio community. That's kinda sad that you just tried to wash all his work away.

3) AJ owns several businesses in San Antonio. Ever been to the San Antonio airport? That sports bar with the giant picture of AJ is owned by AJ. Is that not of a enough of a connection for you?

4) AJ owns a set of houses on the East side of town in which he pays, furnishes and maintains for families who are trying to get on their feet.

5) It's premature to be claiming that Duncan, Parker, Bowen and Ginobili are puro San Antonians. Bowen lives in Miami during the offseason. It's not a lock that Duncan, Parker or Ginobili finish their career on the Spurs. And beyond that, I doubt all three are going to live in San Antonio for the rest of their lives. And besides, who cares where a player lives after they retire? Pop is on the first plane out of town once he retires as coach. Bill Russell lives in Seattle and says he hates the city of Boston. If Duncan, Parker, Bowen, Pop, Robinson or whoever say that, I won't hold that against them at all.

[ShoogarBear]

What about Spur fans who don't live in San Antonio? Are they traitors, too?

[whottt]

What about Spur fans who don't live in San Antonio? Are they traitors, too?


Only if their jersey is retired.

[whottt]

I'm gonna jab this stick under the bus. Shoogar you and Marcus go on the other side. When the cripple sticks his head out, you two stomp it into the fvcking dirt. AJ will make us ;)

[ShoogarBear]

Only if their jersey is retired.So if your jersey is retired, your corporal presence is forever restricted from traversing past the city limits?

Logic has forsaken thee.

[whottt]

So if your jersey is retired, your corporal presence is forever restricted from traversing past the city limits?

Logic has forsaken thee.


No...it just makes them a traitor.


Oh, and BTW...



I hate James Silas


Fixed

[timvp]

I understand part of the mindset of AJ fans...

They simply love the underdog, they love the idea of the impossible dream of AJ coming from nothing with no talent...to have his jersey hanging up there with icons, simply out of determination to succeed and an unwillingness to give up...


I do get that aspect of the mindset...

I get that timvp is actually an incredibly nice guy, who runs a wonderful Spursboard, and you can see how much he loves AJ and that dream...

Belive me...at the back of mind it bothers me when I rip someone I know is probably his favorite player mercilessly...with the hospitality he has shown me...it bothers me even more because I really don't hate AJ, I really and truly don't hate him, and prior to the end of his time here with this team....I had a similar view of AJ. I don't really have a problem with those who rip AJ. I'm not going to lose respect for a poster because they don't like AJ.

AJ's stats weren't retired jersey worthy. AJ didn't spend his whole career on the Spurs. AJ has said stuff and done stuff that he'd no doubt like to take back.

Add those points to the fact that AJ is the head coach of the Spurs' biggest current rival and I can fully understand not liking AJ. When the Spurs are playing the Mavs and AJ is doing everything he humanly can to beat the Spurs, I don't like AJ either.

But that said, I know AJ was a vital part to that 1999 team and that 1999 team is a team I'll always have undying respect for. They opened the door for the success we see today. After all the heartbreaks in the franchise's history up until 1999, it made that championship even sweeter.

In any other circumstance, I wouldn't be for retiring AJ's number. He was pretty good and a fiery leader but that alone wasn't worth retiring his number. But the reality of the circumstance is that the first championship team happened to have a no talent point guard as its undisputed leader. It's a special case in NBA history, really. Which franchise won a championship with a leader with as little natural skill as AJ? I can't think of anyone even close.

Bottomline is I understand not liking AJ for a multitude of reasons ... but I'm not going to forget what he meant for the Spurs in the context of those teams in the 1990's and I'm glad the Spurs have decided to honor that.



But what I don't get...is the seeming desire and joy that AJ fans get at throwing in and everyone from David Robinson, to the crippled Johnny Moore, to an innocent Manu, under the bus...in the desire to see that dream realized...nor do I get the absolute free pass that AJ has been given to be a jerk since leaving here....I haven't thrown DRob under the bus. I don't understand why you call Moore a cripple. Yeah, he got sick but he didn't exactly end up in a wheelchair. I'm not sure how Manu entered the equation.


It's possible to argue for AJ without arguing against other players. You've thrown Sean Elliott and at times even David Robinson and Tim Duncan under the bus in your attempts to justify keeping AJ out.

I just wish AJ actually resembled their idealized vision of him...and I wish their methods of elevating him, were in the spirit of their idealized vision of him...

In any case, it's' just a jersey...AJ was a part of those championship teams, and he was the best PG Drob had in his prime, and it was fun watching him make a fool of Damon Stoudamire. I was pulling for him as much as anyone.

As long as AJ actually acts touched by the gesture, and like he was proud of being a Spur, instead of acting like it's something owed to him and he was the one doing the Spurs a favor...I can live with it. You don't deserve it AJ...so don't act like you do.

And I know as the coach of the Mavs he can't afford to be a nice and humble guy...I can respect that, as he long as he keeps it clean where the Spurs are concerned...if he wants to mean something to us...he has to show us that we mean something to him. This is a huge honor they are giving him. Just be deserving of it in spirit where the Spurs are concerned AJ...that's all I am asking.

And AJ fans...get freaking real.Earlier this summer, I know you read those same articles I did that had quotes from AJ. AJ seemed thrilled that the Spurs won the championship. You also noticed it and pointed it out.

I don't have any doubts that AJ appreciated his time in San Antonio. The players, the fans, the city ... all of that. He wanted to coach and there wasn't going to be an opening in SA for a while. I don't have a problem with him living out his dream. Of course I don't like him when the Mavs play the Spurs ... but it doesn't make me forget what AJ meant to the first championship team.

[Indazone]

man..can the Spurs front office take back a Jersey Retiring?

[Ignignokt]

Aj sucks supreme balls. Every time i see parker do a ballsy play, i'm glad Timvp is not the coach and Aj the pg for the spurs.



But, how bout we retire Will perdue's jersey.<sarcasm>

[Ignignokt]

that means the honor of retiring a spur is a big joke, and i'm gonna root for the Toros.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Okay.

[ducks]

The Spurs Are Retiring Avery Johnson's Number Why, Exactly?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2007/...r-why-exactly/

The San Antonio Spurs have announced that they will be retiring the jersey of Avery Johnson, who is a former Spurs player and the current head coach of the Dallas Mavericks. The particulars are as follows:

Avery Johnson will be immortalized in San Antonio on Dec. 22 when the Spurs retire his No. 6 jersey. The team's all-time assists leader helped the franchise win its first NBA title in 1999.

Johnson played all or part of 10 seasons with the Spurs, mostly under coach Gregg Popovich. Then the general manager, Popovich brought Johnson back to San Antonio in 1994 to be the team's point guard after he played one season at Golden State.

The Mavs are off the day the Spurs face the Clippers, and Johnson will be present for the ceremony.
This quote mentions the facts that Avery is the team's all-time assists leader, and that he "helped" the Spurs win their first NBA title in (the lockout-shortened season) 1999. A fairly lengthy explanation of why this is completely ridiculous, after the jump.

Retired jerseys, in my humble opinion, are for players or coaches that have materially contributed to the overall success of the franchise. Players whose jerseys are retired should be Hall of Fame caliber. Players who, without question, are dominant superstars without whom the franchise would never have been relevant at all but for that player's time with the team. Does Avery Johnson fit into that category with the Spurs? Absolutely not. His one shining moment with the team came in the 1999 (completely meaningless, lockout-induced) NBA Finals. Avery hit a 20-foot jumper to clinch the title for the Spurs.

Now ... forgetting the fact that over half of those highlights were from the Knicks team that lost that series, can we really consider this a legitimate championship? The season didn't even begin until February due to a lockout by the owners, and most players were either out of shape or simply didn't care once the shortened season actually began. Bill Simmons did one of the best jobs describing what truly happened in '99:

This was the excruciating lockout season, when the overmatched player's union -- led by Billy Hunter and Patrick Ewing, who shouldn't have been trusted to handle a bake sale at an elementary school, much less a labor dispute -- had their ensalada tossed by David Stern (at the apex of his power) and limped back to work in early February, followed by a rushed 50-game season in which too many players changed teams and nearly everyone was out of shape, leading to nagging injuries, shoddy basketball and an absolutely hateful season on every level. The rushed playoffs were such a joke that the eighth-seeded Knicks ended up making the Finals before getting trounced by the Spurs...
So the point here is that Avery's "big jump-shot" occurred in an NBA Finals that was deemed completely worthless by everyone who was not a fan of either the Knicks or the Spurs. Since Avery has no other highlights to speak of, let's go to his career stats to see if they might be worthy of having his number retired.


The amazing website basketball-reference.com produces all of the facts we need to see that Avery Johnson had, at best, two solid years that would be barely worthy of immortalization. In the '94-'95 and '95-'96 seasons, Avery averaged about 13 points and 8 assists, and 13 points and 9 assists (respectively) per game. His career averages though are far below that, where we're seeing an average of about 8 points and 5 assists per game over 16 freaking seasons, approximately 10 of which were spent in San Antonio. Not exactly Hall of Fame credentials, are they? Just to further illustrate this point, players with similar numbers at the same age as Avery was in his prime include Moochie Norris, Sherman Douglas, and Michael Adams. Yeah, exactly.


The Spurs as a franchise have only retired five numbers prior to this abomination that will occur in late December. The retired numbers are as follows:

00 - Johnny Moore, G, 1980-88 & 1989-90
13 - James Silas, G, 1972-81 (1972-73 Dallas)
32 - Sean Elliott, F, 1989-1993, 1994-2001
44 - George Gervin, G, 1974-85
50 - David Robinson, C, 1989-2003

Obviously, I have nothing to say about David robinson and George Gervin, as they are no-brainer hall-of-famers, completely deserved of having their numbers retired. Sean Elliott is borderline, but understandable considering his tenure with the team and that ridiculous shot he hit in that playoff series against the Blazers. James Silas was a baller for the Spurs in the ABA and NBA, so no issues with him either. Johnny Moore though? Similar numbers to those of Avery's (pretty weak), but the dude was with the team a while and overcame Valley Fever to rejoin the team and finish his career. I'm guessing the retirement of his number had more to do with the latter than the former.


So to me, the retirement of Avery Johnson's jersey with the Spurs is more about his relationship with Gregg Popovich and the fact that he blossomed into a pretty solid NBA coach, and less about how great or important of a player he was to the Spurs' organization over those 10 years. When I think of teams that retire players' jerseys, I think of Hall of Fame players who were integral parts of a team's championship years. I think anyone would be hard-pressed to create a compelling argument for Avery Johnson having that much meaning to the Spurs.

[objective]

I'm not sure how Manu entered the equation.

If I had to guess what he's referencing, it's that you posted something to the effect of Manu being a 'barely capable role player' in 03, despite how Manu was on the court in the tight 4th quarters finishing games that year and the other qualities Manu had that year in his first playoffs.

[sandman]

The '86 team had Moore, Gervin, Gilmore, Mitchell, Banks and Robertson. All were healthy virtually the entire season, yet the team finished 41-41. And if you watched games of that year (Moore's career year), Moore was at best the fourth best player on the team. No one can watch games from that year and say Moore was a better player than Mitchell. No way.



Are you sure that you are referring to the 85-86 season? Gene Banks was traded to Chicago in the off-season and Moore only played about 30 games that year before getting sick.

[whottt]

I can think of no Spurs player who better exemplified what the Spurs were about at the start of the Popovich coaching era than AJ.

Me either...I'd say AJ was the ebodiment of what the Spurs were about at the start of the Popovich coaching era...


I've never agreed with you more.








Only the all-time NCAA assists leader who had an 8+ apg average across multiple seasons.

Great...

[timvp]

Are you sure that you are referring to the 85-86 season? Gene Banks was traded to Chicago in the off-season and Moore only played about 30 games that year before getting sick.Typo. I was talking about the '84-85 team as indicated by the sentence before that.

My bad.

[whottt]

Manu entered the equation when AJ talked shit...and AJ fans chuckled it off.


Manu entered the equation when he innocently got caught up in the whole jersey thing and was basically publically humiliated by the Spurs by being forced to give up a jersey that was given to him.

[ducks]

manu should have been allowed to wear aj's number because he asked and got it
then harris thru had a cow
spurs did not want to retire aj's number

[objective]

Manu entered the equation when AJ talked shit...and AJ fans chuckled it off.


Manu entered the equation when he innocently got caught up in the whole jersey thing and was basically publically humiliated by the Spurs by being forced to give up a jersey that was given to him.

guess i was wrong.

my bad

[CharlieMac]

Good for AJ.

[toosmallshoes]

Yay!

[Dreamshake]

Ha Ha. Next up on the Spurs Ring of Honor...Vinny Del Negro. Mark your calenders.

[ShoogarBear]

Bump for old times' sake.