For those who kept saying Jordan was a great teammate

[ambchang]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Jq6avQRL37Y

He wasn't, read the Jordan Rules (a bit controversial and written by a hack like Sam Smith, but note that interviews with teammates since have confirmed that Jordan was indeed a jerk).

If he never won 6 titles, he would be considered ballhog extraordinaire and a cancer. But of course he did, and winners write the history books where is fire was pure of any exterior motives and he was only concerned of winning. BUt people forgot his famous response to the question whether he would want to win or have individual brilliance, he responded by saying that he would want his team to win because of his individual brilliance.
There is also my favourite: "There is no I in team, but there is in win"
Or the time he termed his teammates the supporting casts. That term has since been used regularly by the media, but it does indeed allow people to peek into the psyche of this great basketball player.

[mavs>spurs2]

Jordan>you

[stretch]

I have, and read The Jordan rules. When he wanted to, he could be a great teammate. When he didn't want to, he was a dick. But the fact is, when he started playing good team ball, they went on a run and won 6 titles.

And everyone knew that he cared about his own personal accomplishments. But he cared more about winning. If you really read the book, you would have seen that he hated losing more than anything in life, whether it was basketball, golf, pingpong, pool, etc... if he really didn't care that much about winning, then I strongly doubt he would have gotten so emotional and broke down crying when he finally won that first championship. If he didn't care that much about winning, he would not be considered the most clutch player in NBA history.

[stretch]

Jordan>you
No. More like...

Steaming pile of kangaroo shit > Ambchang.

Don't even put their names in the same sentence. That is an insult to humankind.

[ambchang]

I never said that Jordan didn't care about winning (nor did I ever mention me>Jordan), but revisionist history is putting him as this perfect teammate who would go out of his way to make his teammates better. He wasn't.
He was a jerk to the purest sense in which he continuously denegrate teammates. Was his motivation winning? I would guess so, I don't know because I am not him, nor did I ever meet him, but there has been continuous evidence that Jordan was not well liked by teammates.
BTW, nice job throwing personal insults in a civil discussion, I never thought raising a discussion over one of the greatest basketball player of all time could hit this close to heart for you. I can only guess as to what your issue is.

[monosylab1k]

He was a jerk to the purest sense in which he continuously denegrate teammates. Was his motivation winning?.
And you just owned yourself.

His behavior towards his teammates is well documented. But you'll find that the large majority of his teammates still love & respect Jordan to this day. Why? Because everything Jordan did was because of his fierce competitive nature, and they respect that.

Kobe, on the other hand, has been all about self-promotion. That's why his teammates have hated him. His attitude appears to have changed some in the past year or so, so we'll see what happens with Kobe.

[Obstructed_View]

If a jerk gets his team to six championships, people love him.

If a jerk can't get his team out of the first round, and they actually play better as a team when he's not there, then there's a problem.

[JMarkJohns]

One of my favorite Jordan anecdotes is when Joe Klein rode the bench for the Bulls, but was on the roster and therefore got his first ring. So, Klein, overjoyed, is weeping with happiness when Jordan sees him, and asks, "What the fuck are you crying for? You should be thanking me!"

Haven't been able to confirm, but that's a great story.

[ambchang]

And you just owned yourself.

His behavior towards his teammates is well documented. But you'll find that the large majority of his teammates still love & respect Jordan to this day. Why? Because everything Jordan did was because of his fierce competitive nature, and they respect that.

Kobe, on the other hand, has been all about self-promotion. That's why his teammates have hated him. His attitude appears to have changed some in the past year or so, so we'll see what happens with Kobe.

Does a large majority of his teammates respect him? I would say probably, he won them 6 rings, but does they all love him? I am not so sure, ask Cartwright, Grant, Kerr, Hopson, Sellers and such, they may not say anything publicly, because an average NBAer publicly deriding the greatest player of all time is basically instant career suicide.

Beside, I am not saying Kobe is a great teammate, I don't think he is, but Jordan isn't that much better. The only difference is Jordan won 6 rings as the main man, and Kobe won none as the main man, and revisionist history somehow manages to put Jordan as a great teammate, when he simply wasn't.

[mavs>spurs2]

Does a large majority of his teammates respect him? I would say probably, he won them 6 rings, but does they all love him? I am not so sure, ask Cartwright, Grant, Kerr, Hopson, Sellers and such, they may not say anything publicly, because an average NBAer publicly deriding the greatest player of all time is basically instant career suicide.

Beside, I am not saying Kobe is a great teammate, I don't think he is, but Jordan isn't that much better. The only difference is Jordan won 6 rings as the main man, and Kobe won none as the main man, and revisionist history somehow manages to put Jordan as a great teammate, when he simply wasn't.

Bad teammates dont win 6 rings as the man

I don't know what your hidden agenda is, but you sound like a fool

[JamStone]

I have never read anywhere or heard anyone, his teammates, sportswriters, fans, coaches say that Michael Jordan was a great teammate.

To whom is this thread directed?

[sa_kid20]

This isn't exactly breaking news. It's pretty well known we wasn't a great teammate, just ask Steve Kerr

[mavs>spurs2]

Jordan got in teammates faces, and could be an ass at times, but it was always out of competitive nature, and to get his teammates fired up.

Looks like it got results 6 times.

[monosylab1k]

revisionist history somehow manages to put Jordan as a great teammate, when he simply wasn't.
the only person making revisionist history is you. everyone knows that Michael was a tyrant at times, not even Bill Swersky's Super Fans will deny that. who has said anything otherwise?

[stretch]

I don't know what your hidden agenda is, but you sound like a fool

Probably to find a way to say that Tim Duncan is the greatest player ever.

[ambchang]

I have never read anywhere or heard anyone, his teammates, sportswriters, fans, coaches say that Michael Jordan was a great teammate.

To whom is this thread directed?
Well ... see above replies.

[ambchang]

Probably to find a way to say that Tim Duncan is the greatest player ever.
No, Magic Johnson, Kareem Abdul- Jabbar, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Jordan, Bird are the top six for me. Duncan is probably somewhere in the "2nd tier" greatest of all time lot along with Hakeem, Dr. J, Moses Malone, Shaq, etc ....

[monosylab1k]

Well ... see above replies.
which one says Jordan was the perfect teammate? because i found these -


When he wanted to, he could be a great teammate. When he didn't want to, he was a dick.


His behavior towards his teammates is well documented.


If a jerk gets his team to six championships, people love him.


This isn't exactly breaking news. It's pretty well known we wasn't a great teammate, just ask Steve Kerr

[ambchang]

the only person making revisionist history is you. everyone knows that Michael was a tyrant at times, not even Bill Swersky's Super Fans will deny that. who has said anything otherwise?
Perhaps I read wrong, but there are many times that was said in this board that Jordan was a jerk not because of his own motives, but of pure intentions of winning basketball games. That was not true, it was Phil Jackson who convinced him to sacrifice his own game for the benefit of the team later on in his career.
And Larry Bird was a jerk too, he won 3 rings. People seem to be saying the ends justifies the means, and I am arguing otherwise, that just because Jordan won 6 rings doesn't mean that he was a great teammate, he just happens to be a great basketball player who can still win 6 rings despite (or because of) him being a jerk.

[monosylab1k]

Perhaps I read wrong, but there are many times that was said in this board that Jordan was a jerk not because of his own motives, but of pure intentions of winning basketball games. That was not true, it was Phil Jackson who convinced him to sacrifice his own game for the benefit of the team later on in his career.
And Larry Bird was a jerk too, he won 3 rings. People seem to be saying the ends justifies the means, and I am arguing otherwise, that just because Jordan won 6 rings doesn't mean that he was a great teammate, he just happens to be a great basketball player who can still win 6 rings despite (or because of) him being a jerk.
I believe Jordan was completely motivated by winning. He was absolutely a jerk and maybe the most arrogant basketball player ever, but I definitely believe it was due to his competitive fire. Granted, I doubt he would have ever played second fiddle to anybody, but there was never going to be someone who would unseat him as top dog on his team.

Jordan was definitely not the greatest teammate, but I think he still commanded respect from them, because they knew he was doing whatever it took to win. And there's plenty of accounts that off the court, Jordan was a pretty decent guy to be around.

[stretch]

Perhaps I read wrong, but there are many times that was said in this board that Jordan was a jerk not because of his own motives, but of pure intentions of winning basketball games. That was not true, it was Phil Jackson who convinced him to sacrifice his own game for the benefit of the team later on in his career.
And Larry Bird was a jerk too, he won 3 rings. People seem to be saying the ends justifies the means, and I am arguing otherwise, that just because Jordan won 6 rings doesn't mean that he was a great teammate, he just happens to be a great basketball player who can still win 6 rings despite (or because of) him being a jerk.
Being a great teammate off the court is different from being a great teammate on the court. There was a period when he clearly was playing selfishly, but how could you blame him either? He averaged like 35 PPG on 50% shooting, and his team wasn't very good. But when he started playing like a good teammate on the court (and when his teammates started stepping it up, not faking migranes because they were scared as fuck, or throwing the ball out of bounds every time they touched the ball, which is something you obviously had forgotten from reading The Jordan Rules as well, that his teammates always choked under pressure as well), they won 6 titles.

[ambchang]

As long as people acknowledged that Jordan was a jerk, then I am fine. The part I didn't understand is how people are grilling Kobe for being exactly what Jordan was early on in his career, while praising Jordan for his competitive fire.
If anything Kobe was similar to Jordan, it was his complete disregard of people around him for the sake of winning. The difference is that he isn't as good as Jordan was, and he doesn't have the teammates or the structure that Jordan had.
And no, I am not saying Kobe >= Jordan, that is simply stupid, but that Jordan was about as big a jerk as Kobe is now back in the day.

[stretch]

As long as people acknowledged that Jordan was a jerk, then I am fine. The part I didn't understand is how people are grilling Kobe for being exactly what Jordan was early on in his career, while praising Jordan for his competitive fire.
If anything Kobe was similar to Jordan, it was his complete disregard of people around him for the sake of winning. The difference is that he isn't as good as Jordan was, and he doesn't have the teammates or the structure that Jordan had.
And no, I am not saying Kobe >= Jordan, that is simply stupid, but that Jordan was about as big a jerk as Kobe is now back in the day.
Well, he is a jerk that won 5 MVPs, 1 DPOY, 6 rings, and 2 gold medals. So whats the deal? Kobe only won 3 rings with Shaq, but hasn't done anything else.

IMO, Kobe is actually more talented and gifted than Jordan. He is more athletic, and has better shooting range. But his mentality is what holds him back the most. Even though Jordan was selfish, he would pick and choose his spots when he was selfish. More often than not, he would play selfishly at good times, and still win games. Kobe plays selfishly at bad times, and loses games because of that.

[monosylab1k]

Big difference between Jordan & Kobe - Jordan would never purposely tank a Game 7 just to prove a point about how crappy his teammates are.

Kobe still has time to mature, and last year there were times where it looked like he had taken some steps, but he still has a way to go.

[Findog]

Big difference between Jordan & Kobe - Jordan would never purposely tank a Game 7 just to prove a point about how crappy his teammates are.

Kobe still has time to mature, and last year there were times where it looked like he had taken some steps, but he still has a way to go.

You're gonna have a stroke with Kobe and Dirk on the same team.

:smokin

[BobcatsDynasty]

Michael Jordan is a front office genius. He was a pretty decent player too. No doubt he would have demanded a trade to the Bobcats if they existed. It's too bad his titles are tainted because they were P.B. (Pre Bobcats).

[TxJudsonRocketTx]

I actually remember an interview with someone (maybe Kerr) where there was an account of Jordan punching Kerr in the eye during practice due to him playing pretty hard D on Jordan. Im pretty sure it was on ESPN Classic a few years back, anyways Jordan socks Kerr in the eye and apologizes after like a week

[stretch]

He also punched Will Perdue in practice for setting a solid pick on him. He yelled at him and punched him and said "why cant you set a pick like that in a real game?"

[The Franchise]

If a jerk gets his team to six championships, people love him.

If a jerk can't get his team out of the first round, and they actually play better as a team when he's not there, then there's a problem.
That pretty much raps it up.

[atxrocker]

this thread is stupid. so what if the greatest man to ever play the game busted his teammates balls. they were lucky to have him as a teammate.

[PM5K]

Some would use Jordan punching Kerr in the eye as proof he was a bad teammate, I see a guy that is so competitive that he doesn't even want to loose in practice, and I can't see how that's necessarily a bad thing.

From everything I've ever read about him that was one of the thing he was praised for, he was a fierce competitor, and even drove his teammates to go all out even in practice, some players nowadays don't even want to participate in practice.

[1Parker1]

Who cares? I'm sure every single one of his teammates weren't complaining once they got those rings. 6 rings is 6 rings. If he wasn't backing up his talk with talent and winning, then it'd be another story.

[nkdlunch]

If he never won 6 titles

you answered your own question right there ^


might I remind ppl that 99% of Jordan's teammates were soft and sucked? of course he HAD to get on their balls

[1Parker1]

Some would use Jordan punching Kerr in the eye as proof he was a bad teammate, I see a guy that is so competitive that he doesn't even want to loose in practice, and I can't see how that's necessarily a bad thing.

From everything I've ever read about him that was one of the thing he was praised for, he was a fierce competitor, and even drove his teammates to go all out even in practice, some players nowadays don't even want to participate in practice.


:lol Well, I guess the problem with that for some fans would be, well how come when Jordan did it it was competitiveness, but Kobe gets killed for the same exact reason in many fan's eyes?

[lefty]

Jordan was a diva. Period

[JamStone]

Some would use Jordan punching Kerr in the eye as proof he was a bad teammate, I see a guy that is so competitive that he doesn't even want to loose in practice, and I can't see how that's necessarily a bad thing.

From everything I've ever read about him that was one of the thing he was praised for, he was a fierce competitor, and even drove his teammates to go all out even in practice, some players nowadays don't even want to participate in practice.


There are some fans (even some Spurs fans) that criticized KG for punching Ricky Rickert in the throat in a training camp practice a few years ago.

Competitive fire and working hard to push teammates are not the only factors of being a good teammate. Being selfless on and off the court, mentoring younger players, sticking up for teammates whether it's to the media, to referees, to fans, or to the coaches, gaining respect of teammates by also being understanding to their situations. There are other ways to measure what makes a good teammate.

Punching clearly inferior teammates because they play well against you in practice doesn't strike me as driving your teammates to play better, in practice or in real games.

Calling young teenage teammates "fag" and crushing their confidence does not strike me as being a good teammate.

Gambling with younger teammates that can't afford the stakes you put down does not strike me as being a good teammate.

Michael Jordan's competitive fire was absolutely a driving force that led his teams to great success. But, that competitive fire does not equate to being a good teammate, despite any team accolades or awards.

He was an asshole to most of his teammates. But, there is no doubt that he was one of the greatest if not the greatest basketball player ever.

[mavs>spurs2]

If it was me, i'd be glad to play with the greatest player of all time, and someone who would be tough and keep me from slacking off, making me a better player.

I'd be sure to thank him for all the rings, too

[Reggie Miller]

Elephant in the Room Department:

Just maybe if Jordan wasn't such an asshole and so "competitive" (including the field of illegal gambling) the Bulls would have won 8-10 in a row. Don't give me that "competitive" crap. Every elite player wants to win badly; not all of them act like spoiled bitches.

[stretch]

Jordan 6

Miller 0

[ambchang]

I find it almost hilarious how people continue to use the 6 rings to justify Jordan being an ass most of those years, while grilling Kobe Bryant for doing the same thing. How does punching out your teammate in practice because you want to win make your teammate a better player? How does riding your teammate all practice long up to a point where the teammate threatens to break your legs make your teammates better? How does continually making fun of your teammate's game (Kwame Brown) until he has lost all confidence make them better? Name me one single player who got worse statistically with Jordan out of the picture. Pippen became an MVP candidate the two years Jordan was off the course playing baseball, Horace Grant played as well in Orlando as he did with the Bulls, ditto Rodman, even BJ Armstrong got statistically better with Jordan gone. Kukoc succeeded despite having Jordan come back on the team, and suffered no statistical decline in his production with or without Jordan. There was not one single young player who was developed by Jordan.

Yes, 6 rings and all, but that doesn't make him a good teammate, a man CAN win 6 rings by being an absolute jackass because he is just that good.

And while we are at it, Jordan didn't make his teammates better, he make them winners, there is a difference.

[ambchang]

you answered your own question right there ^


might I remind ppl that 99% of Jordan's teammates were soft and sucked? of course he HAD to get on their balls

You mean, Pippen, Grant, Rodman, Oakley, Woolridge, (a very very old) Gervin, Cartwright, etc .. sucked? Not all of them maybe allstars, but I would take anyone of them on the Spurs at the time they were Jordan's teammates.

[monosylab1k]

And while we are at it, Jordan didn't make his teammates better, he make them winners, there is a difference.
at the same time, how did his teammates do once they left the Bulls?

Pippen did okay, but never won a title. His quality of play slipped severely after he left Chicago. He failed miserably in Houston.

Horace Grant went from one of the top PF's in the leauge to a slightly above average "fourth fiddle" in Orlando.

Steve Kerr piggybacked Tim Duncan to another title. Other than that he wasn't anything special.

Toni Kukoc? Yeah.

Every white stiff center they had (Longley, Wennington, Perdue) signed a big ass contract elsewhere and proceeded to fail miserably.

Did BJ Armstrong even exist without Michael Jordan?

[Reggie Miller]

Jordan 6

Miller 0

Jordan not being a complete bitch and breaking up the Bulls: 8-10
Miller: Still 0 (and maybe doesn't even go to the Finals in 2000).

You never addressed the point. You have a great future in store for you on Around the Horn. Congratulations!

[stretch]

Miller: Still 0

That's all that matters.

[ambchang]

at the same time, how did his teammates do once they left the Bulls?

Pippen did okay, but never won a title. His quality of play slipped severely after he left Chicago. He failed miserably in Houston.

Horace Grant went from one of the top PF's in the leauge to a slightly above average "fourth fiddle" in Orlando.

Steve Kerr piggybacked Tim Duncan to another title. Other than that he wasn't anything special.

Toni Kukoc? Yeah.

Every white stiff center they had (Longley, Wennington, Perdue) signed a big ass contract elsewhere and proceeded to fail miserably.

Did BJ Armstrong even exist without Michael Jordan?

Pippen finished 3rd in league MVP voting during Jordan's hiatus.
Grant became 3rd fiddle in Orlando, just as he was with the Bulls. And his last year with the Bulls (without Jordan), he had his best statistical season.
Kerr was never an integral part of any of the teams he was on. He averaged about the same with the Bulls with and without Jordan.
Kukoc had his best statistical season in 99, the year Jordan retired (and he was oft injured).
Armstrong also had his best statistical season in 94 and 95.

I am not going to post the stats of all the players during their last year with Jordan and the year they played immediately afterwards, but it shows that all of them had similar (or better) production without Jordan. Just look up basketball-reference.com

And I already said Jordan got them the 6 titles, no Jordan = no titles, I can say that much, but that does not make Jordan's teammates better players NOR does that make Jordan a good teammate. These things are totally separate issues.

[ambchang]

The end justifies the means, always.

[monosylab1k]

And I already said Jordan got them the 6 titles, no Jordan = no titles, I can say that much, but that does not make Jordan's teammates better players NOR does that make Jordan a good teammate. These things are totally separate issues.
And who said Jordan was a good teammate? Hasn't everybody agreed that the guy could be an arrogant ass? But ask any of those former teammates if they'd go through the entire Jordan experience again, and they'd all say yes without a doubt. They'd all play alongside Jordan in a heartbeat.

Jordan was neither angel nor devil. He's not the great teammate Tim Duncan is, but he was definitely a better teammate that Kobe has been.

[ambchang]

Yeah, and people were grilling me about revisionist history, when people brilliantly pointed out that the 6 rings is all that matters in evaluating how good a teammate Jordan was. Hey, winner makes the rules, not that this is particularly unique or anything.

[monosylab1k]

Grant became 3rd fiddle in Orlando
Shaq
Penny
Nick Anderson

he was a fourth fiddle at best in Orlando, he might even be fifth, because Dennis Scott was around too.

[stretch]

Pippen finished 3rd in league MVP voting during Jordan's hiatus.
Grant became 3rd fiddle in Orlando, just as he was with the Bulls. And his last year with the Bulls (without Jordan), he had his best statistical season.
Kerr was never an integral part of any of the teams he was on. He averaged about the same with the Bulls with and without Jordan.
Kukoc had his best statistical season in 99, the year Jordan retired (and he was oft injured).
Armstrong also had his best statistical season in 94 and 95.

I am not going to post the stats of all the players during their last year with Jordan and the year they played immediately afterwards, but it shows that all of them had similar (or better) production without Jordan. Just look up basketball-reference.com

And I already said Jordan got them the 6 titles, no Jordan = no titles, I can say that much, but that does not make Jordan's teammates better players NOR does that make Jordan a good teammate. These things are totally separate issues.
The fact is, aside from Pippen, it it wasn't for Jordan, we wouldn't even remember or care who those guys are.

[ambchang]

And who said Jordan was a good teammate? Hasn't everybody agreed that the guy could be an arrogant ass? But ask any of those former teammates if they'd go through the entire Jordan experience again, and they'd all say yes without a doubt. They'd all play alongside Jordan in a heartbeat.

Jordan was neither angel nor devil. He's not the great teammate Tim Duncan is, but he was definitely a better teammate that Kobe has been.


I see a guy that is so competitive that he doesn't even want to loose in practice, and I can't see how that's necessarily a bad thing.


If it was me, i'd be glad to play with the greatest player of all time, and someone who would be tough and keep me from slacking off, making me a better player.


this thread is stupid. so what if the greatest man to ever play the game busted his teammates balls. they were lucky to have him as a teammate.

I would say those people are all saying that Jordan's actions were a) justifies, b) make his teammates better, which is simply not the case.

I am not even concerned about whether Jordan was a better teammate than Duncan or not, my point is that you guys are applying double standards in saying that Jordan being a jerk is justified because that was competitive fire, and Kobe doing exactly the same thing (actually less of it) was him being a diva.

[stretch]

I would say those people are all saying that Jordan's actions were a) justifies, b) make his teammates better, which is simply not the case.

I am not even concerned about whether Jordan was a better teammate than Duncan or not, my point is that you guys are applying double standards in saying that Jordan being a jerk is justified because that was competitive fire, and Kobe doing exactly the same thing (actually less of it) was him being a diva.
The difference is that Jordan was winning. Kobe is not. Winners get a pass. Everyone knows that.

[ambchang]

Shaq
Penny
Nick Anderson

he was a fourth fiddle at best in Orlando, he might even be fifth, because Dennis Scott was around too.

Wow, so Grant being 4th fiddle in Orlando allowed him to have the same / similar statistical production as he did with the Bulls as the 3rd fiddle/

[ambchang]

The difference is that Jordan was winning. Kobe is not. Winners get a pass. Everyone knows that.

In other words, double standards.
Which I can certainly understand.

[stretch]

In other words, double standards.
Which I can certainly understand.
If you view it like that, then its fine. Its the same reason great players and winners get a pass for talking shit, while shitty players and losers don't.

And if you are fine with it, then why do you keep whining like a little bitch about it?

:dizzy

[monosylab1k]

IMO, this post puts to rest any "jordan = bad teammate" discussion.


I hear Patton was a real SOB too. You want to win the war or a popularity contest?

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1545471&postcount=41

[monosylab1k]

my point is that you guys are applying double standards in saying that Jordan being a jerk is justified because that was competitive fire, and Kobe doing exactly the same thing (actually less of it) was him being a diva.
you find me a time when Jordan purposely tanked a game 7 just to prove a point about how bad his teammates were. you find me that time he did that, and I'll agree that Jordan was exactly the type of teammate that Kobe is.

[ambchang]

If you view it like that, then its fine. Its the same reason great players and winners get a pass for talking shit, while shitty players and losers don't.

And if you are fine with it, then why do you keep whining like a little bitch about it?

:dizzy

Because I wasn't aware that people are fine with themselves having double standards.

[ambchang]

IMO, this post puts to rest any "jordan = bad teammate" discussion.



http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1545471&postcount=41

But then why is Kobe Bryant being chastised for exactly the same thing? I understand now that it is a double standard.

[Reggie Miller]

you find me a time when Jordan purposely tanked a game 7 just to prove a point about how bad his teammates were. you find me that time he did that, and I'll agree that Jordan was exactly the type of teammate that Kobe is.

That is definitely the difference between Jordan and Bryant. No comparison between these two.

There is definitely a double standard in sports. That is a given. My point is (and has always been) that Jordan's attitude may have cost the Bulls even more titles. It's no secret what happened between Reinsdorf, Krause, Jackson, and Jordan. If you buy into the "suspended for gambling" theory, he probably cost them two titles over that. Even if you don't, you can make the argument that quitting basketball for baseball is the pinnacle of arrogance.

Michael Jordan was created by Nike, and the NBA and Nike were fortunate that he really was that good. (Subsequent attempts have largely failed.) For this and other reasons, Jordan thought he was bigger than the game, and I don't think anyone would seriously debate that. Whether or not he actually was bigger than the game (and he probably was), it doesn't excuse his behavior.

My personal axe to grind in all of this is that I don't think people should laud Jordan as the greatest player of all time and just ignore all of these negative facts about the man. Even if he was the GOAT, he could have been much better with a better attitude. This is all forgotten now.

Oh well...

[ambchang]

you find me a time when Jordan purposely tanked a game 7 just to prove a point about how bad his teammates were. you find me that time he did that, and I'll agree that Jordan was exactly the type of teammate that Kobe is.
You mean the game where Kobe went 8-16 for 24 pts, including 4-8 on 3s, and the Lakers got blown out by about 30 points? I am not sure what Kobe was trying to prove that game, or was it even him trying to prove something, but trying to define a player based on one game is shallow at best. Are you going to define Pippen's career with the 1.8s, or Shaq getting swept? Or how Hakeem refused to play games and clashes with management in the early 90s? How about Magic getting his coach fired? Isiah Thomas with his inbounds pass stolen by Bird?

[stretch]

Because I wasn't aware that people are fine with themselves having double standards.
Okay, so what is your whole point? You want to dog on Jordan, but you aren't promoting Kobe or anyone else... is this the whole point of the thread? to simply dog on Michael Jordan? That's what it looks like to me. If thats the case, then I don't even know why I bothered defending him. His resume itself makes all the haters look stupid. No other words are neccesary.

[stretch]

That is definitely the difference between Jordan and Bryant. No comparison between these two.

There is definitely a double standard in sports. That is a given. My point is (and has always been) that Jordan's attitude may have cost the Bulls even more titles. It's no secret what happened between Reinsdorf, Krause, Jackson, and Jordan. If you buy into the "suspended for gambling" theory, he probably cost them two titles over that. Even if you don't, you can make the argument that quitting basketball for baseball is the pinnacle of arrogance.

Michael Jordan was created by Nike, and the NBA and Nike were fortunate that he really was that good. (Subsequent attempts have largely failed.) For this and other reasons, Jordan thought he was bigger than the game, and I don't think anyone would seriously debate that. Whether or not he actually was bigger than the game (and he probably was), it doesn't excuse his behavior.

My personal axe to grind in all of this is that I don't think people should laud Jordan as the greatest player of all time and just ignore all of these negative facts about the man. Even if he was the GOAT, he could have been much better with a better attitude. This is all forgotten now.

Oh well...

If he already is unquestionably the greatest player of all time, and could have been better, then I don't see how you can knock on him for that. He already accomplished everything an NBA player could possibly accomplish. In fact, he already did before he retired for the FIRST time. He won 3 straight championships, multiple MVPs, gold medals, made the All-Star team every year in the league, won DPOY, a gold medal, and was already widely considered the best basketball player that ever lived... I think at that point, he could do whatever the fuck he wanted, and if he wanted to retire and play baseball, thats his choice. he already did his duty, played out his entire contract, won titles, and made all kinds of ridiculous revenue for the NBA. he spent a year and a half doing whatever, then came back, and won 3 more titles, some MVPs, and another gold medal, as well as a ton more revenue for the NBA. I really don't see how anyone can find a reason to complain about his playing career. He could have been better and done more, sure... but at the same time, he had nothing more to prove, and there is more to life than just basketball, so I can't blame him for leaving early.

[stretch]

You mean the game where Kobe went 8-16 for 24 pts, including 4-8 on 3s, and the Lakers got blown out by about 30 points? I am not sure what Kobe was trying to prove that game, or was it even him trying to prove something, but trying to define a player based on one game is shallow at best. Are you going to define Pippen's career with the 1.8s, or Shaq getting swept? Or how Hakeem refused to play games and clashes with management in the early 90s? How about Magic getting his coach fired? Isiah Thomas with his inbounds pass stolen by Bird?
No one says that defines his career one bit. You really need to read people's posts. He just said that was something that Jordan would have never done. Can you agree with that? And can you honestly say Kobe played his ass off in that game? If his teammates aren't hitting crap, while he was the SOLE reason they ever had a chance at winning that series, then he should have tried to take over the game when things got out of hand. Instead, he just sat back, watched, and let everyone self-destruct, and did nothing.

[Reggie Miller]

If he already is unquestionably the greatest player of all time, and could have been better, then I don't see how you can knock on him for that. He already accomplished everything an NBA player could possibly accomplish. In fact, he already did before he retired for the FIRST time. He won 3 straight championships, multiple MVPs, gold medals, made the All-Star team every year in the league, won DPOY, a gold medal, and was already widely considered the best basketball player that ever lived... I think at that point, he could do whatever the fuck he wanted, and if he wanted to retire and play baseball, thats his choice. he already did his duty, played out his entire contract, won titles, and made all kinds of ridiculous revenue for the NBA. he spent a year and a half doing whatever, then came back, and won 3 more titles, some MVPs, and another gold medal, as well as a ton more revenue for the NBA. I really don't see how anyone can find a reason to complain about his playing career. He could have been better and done more, sure... but at the same time, he had nothing more to prove, and there is more to life than just basketball, so I can't blame him for leaving early.

I have one important qualifier to all of that: I also don't think Michael Jordan was unquestionably the GOAT. Oscar Robertson and Wilt Chamberlain are in that discussion. (You can also make some of the same "failed to realize his full potential" arguments with Chamberlain also.) The real key to me is that Jordan could have easily prevented this sort of debate by winning 8 consecutively.

Also, I really do believe Jordan was secretly suspended. If you believe that, it is hard to look at him the same way. If I am just some conspiracy nut, I do apologize...

[monosylab1k]

I am not sure what Kobe was trying to prove that game, or was it even him trying to prove something, but trying to define a player based on one game is shallow at best.
It doesn't define his career, but it shows the difference between Jordan and Kobe. Things got tough for Kobe and he gave up. Bring up his empty stats if you like, but if you actually watched that game, you KNOW that Kobe was purposely tanking in the 2nd half.

And that game is merely a microcosm of everything Kobe is about. It doesn't define his career, but it does define his relationship with his team that year and every year before it.

You find me a time when things got tough for Jordan, and he lashed out at his team by giving up and purposely tanking. Find me that time and maybe i'll start seeing things your way.

[samikeyp]

Why does it really matter?

You are not in the NBA to hold hands and sing Kumbaya. Maybe Jordan liked some teammates and not others, so what? He was still a team player because he knew he couldn't do it alone and made those around him better. You win by any means neccessary within the scope of the rules. You can have great team chemistry and still not like everyone on your team.

[monosylab1k]

But then why is Kobe Bryant being chastised for exactly the same thing?
he isn't. not even remotely. Kobe is chastised for being a selfish brat who wants everyone to coddle him and tell him he's the best.

Jordan was selfish, but again, he didn't need anybody coddling him and telling him how great he was.....he showed himself how great he was by kicking everybody's ass on the court.

Kobe's eye is on being the greatest player of all time....Jordan's eye was on being the greatest winner of all time. They may act in similar ways at times, but their philosophies on basketball are complete opposites.

[samikeyp]

he isn't. not even remotely. Kobe is chastised for being a selfish brat who wants everyone to coddle him and tell him he's the best.

Jordan was selfish, but again, he didn't need anybody coddling him and telling him how great he was.....he showed himself how great he was by kicking everybody's ass on the court.

Kobe's eye is on being the greatest player of all time....Jordan's eye was on being the greatest winner of all time. They may act in similar ways at times, but their philosophies on basketball are complete opposites.

Agreed...Jordan was focused on titles, Kobe seems focused on Kobe.

[monosylab1k]

Even if he was the GOAT, he could have been much better with a better attitude.
Maybe so. Then again, maybe he isn't the same player without all the negative traits.

Jordan was who he was. Anybody who knows basketball realizes that he had alot of negative aspects to his personality. And I say that all the negatives stem from his almost mentally insane, obsessive drive to win. I don't think he's the same winner he was without the negative aspects. And he found a way to temper it just enough to earn the respect of his teammates, no matter how poorly he treated them at times.

[Findog]

Maybe so. Then again, maybe he isn't the same player without all the negative traits.

Jordan was who he was. Anybody who knows basketball realizes that he had alot of negative aspects to his personality. And I say that all the negatives stem from his almost mentally insane, obsessive drive to win. I don't think he's the same winner he was without the negative aspects. And he found a way to temper it just enough to earn the respect of his teammates, no matter how poorly he treated them at times.

Good post, that about sums it up. Can't disagree with any of it. :toast

[samikeyp]

Well said.

To add to that also....anyone of those players who ambchang feels was "wronged" would gladly take the abuse all over again to get the ring.

[Findog]

Well said.

To add to that also....anyone of those players who ambchang feels was "wronged" would gladly take the abuse all over again to get the ring.

82 games and four rounds of the playoffs takes an insane amount of physical and mental toughness to get through. I'm sure all was forgiven once the champagne was flowing, and as mono pointed out, a lot of those guys got big money deals from other teams once they had rings on their fingers.

[Oh, Gee!!]

any man who has won his teammates one championship (much less 6) is a good teammate

[ambchang]

Okay, so what is your whole point? You want to dog on Jordan, but you aren't promoting Kobe or anyone else... is this the whole point of the thread? to simply dog on Michael Jordan? That's what it looks like to me. If thats the case, then I don't even know why I bothered defending him. His resume itself makes all the haters look stupid. No other words are neccesary.

It's pretty much to point out that people who kept dogging Kobe and validating what Jordan did are hypocrites.

[ambchang]

It doesn't define his career, but it shows the difference between Jordan and Kobe. Things got tough for Kobe and he gave up. Bring up his empty stats if you like, but if you actually watched that game, you KNOW that Kobe was purposely tanking in the 2nd half.

And that game is merely a microcosm of everything Kobe is about. It doesn't define his career, but it does define his relationship with his team that year and every year before it.

You find me a time when things got tough for Jordan, and he lashed out at his team by giving up and purposely tanking. Find me that time and maybe i'll start seeing things your way.

Jordan doesn't tank, he still plays the game, but he blames his teammates, which is what Kobe does.

[ambchang]

Why does it really matter?

You are not in the NBA to hold hands and sing Kumbaya. Maybe Jordan liked some teammates and not others, so what? He was still a team player because he knew he couldn't do it alone and made those around him better. You win by any means neccessary within the scope of the rules. You can have great team chemistry and still not like everyone on your team.


And that is ultimately not the point of the thread.
The point of the thread is to point out to people just because Jordan was one of the best in the history of the game doesn't make him a good teammate. He won despite being a jerk and never made any of his teammates better, but people are out revising history, saying that Jordan made his teammates better, and Pippen rode his coattails to 6 titles.

[samikeyp]

My post still stands.

I asked a question.

Why does it really matter?

[monosylab1k]

Jordan doesn't tank, he still plays the game
thank you.

[ambchang]

Agreed...Jordan was focused on titles, Kobe seems focused on Kobe.
And again I ask, why? Why would you know?
Isn't Kobe asking out of the current situation because he wanted to win titles?
Wasn't it Buss who traded Kobe to the Heat and not Kobe? Shaq came out and said last year (or the year before?) that he believed it was BUss who made all the decisions, and Kobe was not the deciding factor.
Both men were ultra-competitive, just that Jordan was that much better than Kobe.

[samikeyp]

I wouldn't know and I am not claiming to. I am voicing an opinion.

[monosylab1k]

Isn't Kobe asking out of the current situation because he wanted to win titles?
Good for him. We'll see now just how serious he is about winning. His attitude and behavior before this (most notably in his game 7 tank job), showed everybody that Kobe was all about Kobe. maybe now he's a changed man.

[ambchang]

So the last couple of posts continues to say how the ends justifies the means. I personally am not alright with it, and that is the whole point. Just because Jordan won his teammates rings doesn't make it OK.
Substandard production environments, child labour and employee abuse allowed Nike and Reebok to create an athletic apparel empire in the late 80's, doesn't make it OK now that they are successful, does it?

[samikeyp]

So the last couple of posts continues to say how the ends justifies the means. I personally am not alright with it, and that is the whole point. Just because Jordan won his teammates rings doesn't make it OK.

When it comes to pro sports, the end is the only thing that matters. History only records how you finish. Fair or not but that it the reality.

I guess I am curious, why are you so adamant to make sure the world knows that you think Jordan was not a good teammate?

[monosylab1k]

So the last couple of posts continues to say how the ends justifies the means. I personally am not alright with it, and that is the whole point. Just because Jordan won his teammates rings doesn't make it OK.
to quote, um, you....i'll say "why would you know?"

his teammates have always said otherwise.

[samikeyp]

I am also still curious....who called Jordan a great teammate?

[ambchang]

to quote, um, you....i'll say "why would you know?"

his teammates have always said otherwise.

Didn't the video note otherwise?

[monosylab1k]

Didn't the video note otherwise?
it showed that he could be an ass, it showed that he did things that weren't right in his dealings with his teammates, sure.

but ask any of those guys "Would you do it all over again? Would you rather be on any other team in those years?" and take a wild guess as to what they'd say.

ask Kobe's teammates of the past 2 seasons those same questions and take a guess as to what they'd say....

end.

[ambchang]

I am also still curious....who called Jordan a great teammate?

I just did a random search on google in the realms of "Jordan made his teammates better", or "Jordan great teammate"
http://community.foxsports.com/blogs/jesus2/2006/12/24/Did_Jordan_Make_Players_Better
http://tstos.wordpress.com/2007/03/17/larry-legend-vs-mj/
http://playerdevelopment.wordpress.com/category/michael-jordan/

[samikeyp]

So guys who played with Jordan and were with him on a daily basis are wrong?

[ambchang]

When it comes to pro sports, the end is the only thing that matters. History only records how you finish. Fair or not but that it the reality.

I guess I am curious, why are you so adamant to make sure the world knows that you think Jordan was not a good teammate?

Well, it's not just with sports, but history in general.
It's just that I kept seeing the post were Kobe were being criticized for his recent actions, while Jordan gets a free ride. As a Spurs fan, I dislike Kobe as much as anybody, but I just felt that this double-standard is not right.

[ambchang]

I wouldn't say they are wrong, just that I do not agree with them. The world is more than black and white.

[monosylab1k]

I wouldn't say they are wrong, just that I do not agree with them.
excuse me? so you don't agree with the opinion of teammates who played with Michael Jordan on a daily basis and experienced firsthand the good & bad of MJ in a discussion of Jordan's treatment of said teammates? what the fuck? wouldn't they have an infinitely better grasp of the situation than you?

[stretch]

I have one important qualifier to all of that: I also don't think Michael Jordan was unquestionably the GOAT. Oscar Robertson and Wilt Chamberlain are in that discussion. (You can also make some of the same "failed to realize his full potential" arguments with Chamberlain also.) The real key to me is that Jordan could have easily prevented this sort of debate by winning 8 consecutively.

Also, I really do believe Jordan was secretly suspended. If you believe that, it is hard to look at him the same way. If I am just some conspiracy nut, I do apologize...
Jordan played in more advanced and competitive era's, had less support, and had a more accomplished resume than those guys. Jordan all the way.

[monosylab1k]

http://community.foxsports.com/blogs/jesus2/2006/12/24/Did_Jordan_Make_Players_Better

:lmao


In 1994 when Jordan left to play baseball the Chicago Bulls won 55 games without him, compared to 57 the year before with him.

yeah, two fewer wins, and one fewer of these - http://www.sptimes.com/2003/04/10/photos/nhl-obrientrophy.jpg

you're right, Jordan didn't make his teammates better, i mean, all they had was 2 fewer wins and one less trophy without him. that's pretty damn close! :lmao

[stretch]

Well said.

To add to that also....anyone of those players who ambchang feels was "wronged" would gladly take the abuse all over again to get the ring.
Correction: the 3 to 6 rings.

[samikeyp]

Correction: the 3 to 6 rings.

Yes, thank you. :toast

[stretch]

And that is ultimately not the point of the thread.
The point of the thread is to point out to people just because Jordan was one of the best in the history of the game doesn't make him a good teammate. He won despite being a jerk and never made any of his teammates better, but people are out revising history, saying that Jordan made his teammates better, and Pippen rode his coattails to 6 titles.
How is it that he DIDN'T make his teammates better??? He won them multiple rings. If it wasn't for the sole fact of playing alongside Jordan, we would not know or care about any of those players, with the exception of Pippen. If anything, its BECAUSE of Jordan that they got any serious kind of recognition or that anyone cares who they were.

[monosylab1k]

In a world where Michael Jordan didn't exist, I'd love to see John Paxson or Steve Kerr interview for a GM job.

"okay next candidate.....John Paxson.....who the fuck is that???"

[samikeyp]

and I am still a big believer in the Pippen coattail theory.

[stretch]

excuse me? so you don't agree with the opinion of teammates who played with Michael Jordan on a daily basis and experienced firsthand the good & bad of MJ in a discussion of Jordan's treatment of said teammates? what the fuck? wouldn't they have an infinitely better grasp of the situation than you?
:lmao

[stretch]

In a world where Michael Jordan didn't exist, I'd love to see John Paxson or Steve Kerr interview for a GM job.
Or Will Perdue even getting an analyst job. Or people pursuing players that used to play for the Bulls, such as Scott Williams and Horace Grant so that they can have players on their roster with "Championship Experience"

[ambchang]

excuse me? so you don't agree with the opinion of teammates who played with Michael Jordan on a daily basis and experienced firsthand the good & bad of MJ in a discussion of Jordan's treatment of said teammates? what the fuck? wouldn't they have an infinitely better grasp of the situation than you?
By "they" I meant the other observers.
I have no idea what Jordan's teammates said, but the video basically said that he was a jerk.

[ambchang]

How is it that he DIDN'T make his teammates better??? He won them multiple rings. If it wasn't for the sole fact of playing alongside Jordan, we would not know or care about any of those players, with the exception of Pippen. If anything, its BECAUSE of Jordan that they got any serious kind of recognition or that anyone cares who they were.
Recognition != Better player, I don't know where you got that from.

[stretch]

Recognition != Better player, I don't know where you got that from.
Recognition and championship experience is what made people even bother pursuing many of those shitty players. Recognition is what makes us actually know who the fuck most of those players are. I promise that if it wasnt for the Bulls, no one here would know who the fuck Craig Hodges, Will Perdue, Steve Kerr, and about 80% of the other shitheads that played over there. The only quality players he really had was Pippen, Oakley (who was not there in the championship years), Cartwright, Grant, and Kukoc. However, the only guy you would actually depend on for a quality game on a nightly basis, was Pippen.

[ambchang]

In a world where Michael Jordan didn't exist, I'd love to see John Paxson or Steve Kerr interview for a GM job.

"okay next candidate.....John Paxson.....who the fuck is that???"
Being a GM = being a better player how?
Led them to a more successful career, yeah. Better player? No.

[samikeyp]

Recognition != Better player, I don't know where you got that from.

I bet if you googled...you would find quite a few of MJ's former teammates who said he made them better. I have heard Steve Kerr say it numerous times.

[monosylab1k]

Recognition != Better player, I don't know where you got that from.
i guess getting to the playoffs & going through the grind of winning a title doesn't make you a better player in any way. especially when, if not for a certain superstar on your time, you'd just be sitting at home instead.

[samikeyp]

In a world where Michael Jordan didn't exist, I'd love to see John Paxson or Steve Kerr interview for a GM job.

"okay next candidate.....John Paxson.....who the fuck is that???"

You mean, being the #1 pick of the Spurs in 1984 wouldn't clinch it for John? :)

[ambchang]

and I am still a big believer in the Pippen coattail theory.
This theory has created much confusion over the years. It is obvious that Pippen would never have won those titles without Jordan, but are you saying that Jordan would have won those titles by substituting Pippen with an average SF by his side all those years?

[monosylab1k]

Being a GM = being a better player how?
Led them to a more successful career, yeah. Better player? No.
Without Michael Jordan, they are never in the position to hit gamewinning shots in the Finals. without that experience, future teams like the Spurs & Lakers have no use for guys like Steve Kerr & Horace Grant & Ron Harper.

If you don't think playing in those type of high pressure games doesn't make you a better player, I don't know what to say.

Guys like Kerr & Paxson basically owe their entire livelihoods to Jordan, not to mention that he made them better players.

[ambchang]

I bet if you googled...you would find quite a few of MJ's former teammates who said he made them better. I have heard Steve Kerr say it numerous times.
I wouldn't publicly bad-mouth one of the best players of all time. It's instant career suicide.

[stretch]

I bet if you googled...you would find quite a few of MJ's former teammates who said he made them better. I have heard Steve Kerr say it numerous times.
I believe Kerr even said that if it wasn't for playing with Jordan and the Bulls, he probably would have never lasted as long as he did in the league, and probably would have been gone after a couple years.

[ambchang]

i guess getting to the playoffs & going through the grind of winning a title doesn't make you a better player in any way. especially when, if not for a certain superstar on your time, you'd just be sitting at home instead.
The players' seasons with and without Jordan seemed to have shown no difference.

[monosylab1k]

I wouldn't publicly bad-mouth one of the best players of all time. It's instant career suicide.
So they'll go on ESPN and call him a jerk but they're just way too scared to tell everyone that he didn't make them a better player? right.

[samikeyp]

This theory has created much confusion over the years. It is obvious that Pippen would never have won those titles without Jordan, but are you saying that Jordan would have won those titles by substituting Pippen with an average SF by his side all those years?

I am saying it is possible. I don't know for sure...and neither do you.

I am not saying that Pippen was not talented, but some people seem are cool with him being in the 50 greatest and placing him in the HOF...I wouldn't say they are wrong, just that I do not agree with them. The world is more than black and white.

[stretch]

I wouldn't publicly bad-mouth one of the best players of all time. It's instant career suicide.
Thats great. At the same time, if he thought he was such as shitty teammate, he didn't have to say anything at all. But he did the opposite, he does nothing but praise Jordan for all that he did for him.

[ambchang]

Without Michael Jordan, they are never in the position to hit gamewinning shots in the Finals. without that experience, future teams like the Spurs & Lakers have no use for guys like Steve Kerr & Horace Grant & Ron Harper.

If you don't think playing in those type of high pressure games doesn't make you a better player, I don't know what to say.

Guys like Kerr & Paxson basically owe their entire livelihoods to Jordan, not to mention that he made them better players.
Again, these are all better careers, not better players. Michael Jordan did practically nothing to make them better players. They were dead-eye shooters without Jordan, they were dead-eye shooters with Jordan. How did Jordan make them better players? Paxson shined in the his first finals, closing out the Lakers, how did Jordan make him better?

[stretch]

The players' seasons with and without Jordan seemed to have shown no difference.
Except for the fact that without Jordan, or some other loaded superstar team, such as Duncan and Robinson's Spurs, they got no rings. Thats a BIG difference.

[ambchang]

So they'll go on ESPN and call him a jerk but they're just way too scared to tell everyone that he didn't make them a better player? right.
They didn't say he was a jerk, they alluded to it, and said it was competitive spirit. Which is basically exactly the same thing Kobe is doing now.

[samikeyp]

I wouldn't publicly bad-mouth one of the best players of all time. It's instant career suicide.

Then you say nothing or keep your comments to a minimum, you don't flat out lie.

[stretch]

Again, these are all better careers, not better players. Michael Jordan did practically nothing to make them better players. They were dead-eye shooters without Jordan, they were dead-eye shooters with Jordan. How did Jordan make them better players? Paxson shined in the his first finals, closing out the Lakers, how did Jordan make him better?
Because without Jordan, he wouldn't have been in any Finals, period.

[stretch]

lol, 6 rings

[monosylab1k]

Michael Jordan did practically nothing to make them better players.
so you're saying that the experience of playing in (and winning) the NBA Finals will do nothing to make a player better?

[monosylab1k]

They didn't say he was a jerk, they alluded to it, and said it was competitive spirit.
well point me to where they've ever alluded to Jordan not making them better players.

[samikeyp]

Michael Jordan did practically nothing to make them better players.

I disagree.

IMO...he made them all better, and in turn, they made him and their team better.

[ambchang]

I am saying it is possible. I don't know for sure...and neither do you.

I am not saying that Pippen was not talented, but some people seem are cool with him being in the 50 greatest and placing him in the HOF...I wouldn't say they are wrong, just that I do not agree with them. The world is more than black and white.
Of course I don't know for sure either, I just need clarification that you are indeed saying Pippen would not have won those 6 titles without Jordan, given your past history of painting the world with black and white paint.
So why would you say that Pippen was not one of the 50 greatest of all time? He was most definitely one of the best perimeter defenders, one of the best facilitator on offense, can drive and shoot with the best of them, led his team to decent success in 94 and 95.

[ambchang]

Then you say nothing or keep your comments to a minimum, you don't flat out lie.
And I haven't read any comments from the players that said Jordan was a great teammate.

[stretch]

lol, 6 rings.

[samikeyp]

Of course I don't know for sure either, I just need clarification that you are indeed saying Pippen would not have won those 6 titles without Jordan, given your past history of painting the world with black and white paint.

I have a history now? Cool!

Not sure why the personal shot, but to each his own.

Like I said, I don't know for sure and never claimed to...I am of the opinion that Scottie Pippen would have not won 6 titles in 8 years with the Bulls without Michael Jordan.

[ambchang]

Because without Jordan, he wouldn't have been in any Finals, period.

I am not sure how many times I have to write this, but winning a ring doesn't make them better players. Samaki Walker won rings with Shaq, didn't make him a better player, Kobe won rings with Shaq and didn't even get past the 1st round without him, but Kobe is arguably a better player now.

[ambchang]

well point me to where they've ever alluded to Jordan not making them better players.
They alluded to him being a jerk.

[samikeyp]

Samaki Walker won rings with Shaq, didn't make him a better player,

Well you have to have talent to start with. :lol :lol

Sorry....random Samaki Walker shot...carry on!

[ambchang]

I disagree.

IMO...he made them all better, and in turn, they made him and their team better.
He made the team better, didn't have any evidence showing that he made the teammates better.

[ambchang]

lol, 6 rings.
lol, Horry - 7 rings.
Horry made his teammate better.

[monosylab1k]

He made the team better, didn't have any evidence showing that he made the teammates better.
what the fuck is the difference? he made the team better, and isn't that the whole point? i'm sorry that you expect him to be out giving jump shot pointers to stacey king while giving him a soothing backrub and making him a sandwich, but he didn't do it. the TEAM WAS BETTER, which meant that the INDIVIDUALS ON THE TEAM must have gotten better also. it's a tough concept but that's how it works. and unless you're going to assert that Jordan was not the leader of those teams, then he had a direct influence on the team (and the individuals who make up the team) getting better.

[samikeyp]

He made the team better, didn't have any evidence showing that he made the teammates better

You are right, I don't have any written or video proof, just an opinion I formed by watching games. Its not right or wrong, just an opinion.

[ambchang]

I have a history now? Cool!

Not sure why the personal shot, but to each his own.

Like I said, I don't know for sure and never claimed to...I am of the opinion that Scottie Pippen would have not won 6 titles in 8 years with the Bulls without Michael Jordan.
Same here, Pippen wouldn't have. But I would argue that Jordan would have a very hard time winning 6 titles without Pippen as well. Pippen, Jordan and Jackson were integral parts of those Bulls teams, and their unique talents make them indispensible. This, to me, means that Pippen worked for all he's got, and that his contribution would exclude him from the coattails category. To me, a person riding a coattails would be people not contributing anything and basking the glory of success afterwards, such as what Udrih did the last couple of championships, or what Jack Haley did with the Bulls.

[samikeyp]

Same here, Pippen wouldn't have. But I would argue that Jordan would have a very hard time winning 6 titles without Pippen as well. Pippen, Jordan and Jackson were integral parts of those Bulls teams, and their unique talents make them indispensible. This, to me, means that Pippen worked for all he's got, and that his contribution would exclude him from the coattails category. To me, a person riding a coattails would be people not contributing anything and basking the glory of success afterwards, such as what Udrih did the last couple of championships, or what Jack Haley did with the Bulls.

I would agree to a point. Integral parts yes, but to me, Pippen didn't have to do as much with Jordan there so he looked better than he was. Again, I am not saying Pippen wasn't good, I just don't think he is Hall of Fame good.

[stretch]

lol, Horry - 7 rings.
Horry made his teammate better.

lol, 6 rings as the unquestioned leader and #1 option of his team

lol, 14 time all-star

lol, 2 time olympic gold medalist

lol, 5 time MVP

lol, rookie of the year award

lol, defensive player of the year award

lol, 10 times ALL-NBA first team, 1 time ALL-NBA second team

lol, 9 time all defensive first team

lol, part of the 50 greatest players in history list

lol, 10 scoring titles (record)

lol, 6 Finals MVPs (record)

lol, highest career scoring average (record)

lol, highest career playoff scoring average (record)

lol, most consecutive games scoring double figures (record)

and that is only a few of his accomplishments... at least the most major ones. here are a few more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_Michael_Jordan

[monosylab1k]

They alluded to him being a jerk.
point me to where they alluded to him not making them better players.

[ambchang]

what the fuck is the difference? he made the team better, and isn't that the whole point? i'm sorry that you expect him to be out giving jump shot pointers to stacey king while giving him a soothing backrub and making him a sandwich, but he didn't do it. the TEAM WAS BETTER, which meant that the INDIVIDUALS ON THE TEAM must have gotten better also. it's a tough concept but that's how it works. and unless you're going to assert that Jordan was not the leader of those teams, then he had a direct influence on the team (and the individuals who make up the team) getting better.

Of course there is a difference. Even though the team game has nothing to do with mathematics, I will use the following analogy:

X1 + X2 + X3 < Y1 + Y2 + Y3
It is entirely possible that X2 and X3 are less than Y2 and Y3 respectively, because Y1 >> X1.

Just because Jordan (Y1) made his group a better team does not mean that he made the other components better (Y2 and Y3)

[samikeyp]

lol, Horry - 7 rings.
Horry made his teammate better

IMO, Horry got those rings because he had Hall of Famers who made him better.

Hakeem, Shaq, Kobe, TD

[ambchang]

lol, 6 rings as the unquestioned leader and #1 option of his team

lol, 14 time all-star

lol, 2 time olympic gold medalist

lol, 5 time MVP

lol, rookie of the year award

lol, defensive player of the year award

lol, 10 times ALL-NBA first team, 1 time ALL-NBA second team

lol, 9 time all defensive first team

lol, part of the 50 greatest players in history list

lol, 10 scoring titles (record)

lol, 6 Finals MVPs (record)

lol, highest career scoring average (record)

lol, highest career playoff scoring average (record)

lol, most consecutive games scoring double figures (record)

and that is only a few of his accomplishments... at least the most major ones. here are a few more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_career_achievements_by_Michael_Jordan

This list certainly shows evidence of how Jordan made his teammates better. Great job! At least I can say that you are consistent in that none of your arguments had any bearing to how Jordan made his teammates better.

[ambchang]

IMO, Horry got those rings because he had Hall of Famers who made him better.

Hakeem, Shaq, Kobe, TD

Yeah, of course, just to point out how irrational it is to point out the 6 rings as some evidence of saying Jordan made his teammates better, and it actually further supports by claim that the ends justifies the means.

[samikeyp]

This list certainly shows evidence of how Jordan made his teammates better. Great job! At least I can say that you are consistent in that none of your arguments had any bearing to how Jordan made his teammates better

Maybe in Stretch's opinion..it does.

He has that right, as you do to disagree.

[stretch]

This list certainly shows evidence of how Jordan made his teammates better. Great job! At least I can say that you are consistent in that none of your arguments had any bearing to how Jordan made his teammates better.
No, it only shows that he is the greatest player of all time, won 6 rings, and accomplished more than any other player in NBA history. I don't think it was vital for him to prove that he was a great teammate.

[samikeyp]

Yeah, of course, just to point out how irrational it is to point out the 6 rings as some evidence of saying Jordan made his teammates better, and it actually further supports by claim that the ends justifies the means.

Again, History only records the ends.

[ambchang]

No, it only shows that he is the greatest player of all time, won 6 rings, and accomplished more than any other player in NBA history. I don't think it was vital for him to prove that he was a great teammate.
Bill Russell said "Hi".
Of course it wasn't vital for him to prove that he was a great teammate, I doubt that he would concern himself that some fatass like me would argue that he wasn't a great teammate because he didn't have too much to do during lunch break.
But then we rarely argue about vital things here .....

[monosylab1k]

Of course there is a difference. Even though the team game has nothing to do with mathematics, I will use the following analogy:

X1 + X2 + X3 < Y1 + Y2 + Y3
It is entirely possible that X2 and X3 are less than Y2 and Y3 respectively, because Y1 >> X1.

Just because Jordan (Y1) made his group a better team does not mean that he made the other components better (Y2 and Y3)
hmmm so let's say the Pistons are X1, X2, & X3. and they dominated the Bulls (Y) up through the 89-90 season.

X1 + X2 + X3 > Y1 + Y2 + Y3 in this case, up until the 89-90 season.

then in the 90-91 season, despite both teams having virtually the exact same components as the year before, this happens -

X1 + X2 + X3 < Y1 + Y2 + Y3

two exact same teams, yet in one year the results flip completely. HOW?

if all the components are exactly the same, how?

[stretch]

Bill Russell said "Hi".
Of course it wasn't vital for him to prove that he was a great teammate, I doubt that he would concern himself that some fatass like me would argue that he wasn't a great teammate because he didn't have too much to do during lunch break.
But then we rarely argue about vital things here .....
Bill Russell played in and era with what, like 8 teams?

Anyways, I'm not arguing this no more. I thought you actually had a point to your argument, but now, it seems you are just finding some pointless shit to nitpick about, and prove how ignorant of a person you really are.

[JamStone]

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u199/whitelighter_love/ththnotthere1.jpg

[mavs>spurs2]

He made the team better, didn't have any evidence showing that he made the teammates better.

What the fuck? Your talking bad about a guy for making his team better?

Isn't the point of basketball team success?

Are you really this retarded?

[stretch]

What the fuck? Your talking bad about a guy for making his team better?

Isn't the point of basketball team success?

Are you really this retarded?
Quite possibly.

[ambchang]

hmmm so let's say the Pistons are X1, X2, & X3. and they dominated the Bulls (Y) up through the 89-90 season.

X1 + X2 + X3 > Y1 + Y2 + Y3 in this case, up until the 89-90 season.

then in the 90-91 season, despite both teams having virtually the exact same components as the year before, this happens -

X1 + X2 + X3 < Y1 + Y2 + Y3

two exact same teams, yet in one year the results flip completely. HOW?

if all the components are exactly the same, how?

That goes by the assumption that 89-90 season and 90-91 season, all players played exactly the same. Which is untrue.

[ambchang]

What the fuck? Your talking bad about a guy for making his team better?

Isn't the point of basketball team success?

Are you really this retarded?

You can't tell the difference between team success and making his teammates better? And you can't understand that saying a person didn't make his teammates better is not talking bad about a guy?

Are you really this retarded?

[ambchang]

Bill Russell played in and era with what, like 8 teams?

Anyways, I'm not arguing this no more. I thought you actually had a point to your argument, but now, it seems you are just finding some pointless shit to nitpick about, and prove how ignorant of a person you really are.

Ignorant how? Ignorant in terms of not knowing enough basketball history, which I can't really see how it was shown.

Russell played in an era with 8 teams, so? Still won 11 of 13. Still has about the same or more accomplishments than Jordan.
And Kareem, Magic, Bird all had impressive resumes, can't conclusively say that Jordan was THE most accomplished player of all time. One of them, true.

[monosylab1k]

That goes by the assumption that 89-90 season and 90-91 season, all players played exactly the same. Which is untrue.
why wouldn't they? what possiby could happen that would make the Bulls far superior to the Pistons in a few months time?

[ambchang]

why wouldn't they? what possiby could happen that would make the Bulls far superior to the Pistons in a few months time?
Pistons got worse? Players got old, Isiah got hurt. The Pistons don't just go from winning almost 60 to 50 in a year because they got better.

And the original point was that Jordan was that factor that made the Bulls much better without making other components significantly better. I am absolutely baffled at how sensitive people could become the second it is said that Jordan was not perfect in anyway.
I was going to say his cologne sucks, but I am not even going to go into that, next thing I know, there will be voodoo dolls with my name on it.

[monosylab1k]

Pistons got worse? Players got old, Isiah got hurt. The Pistons don't just go from winning almost 60 to 50 in a year because they got better.

right. the Bulls couldn't possibly have gotten better. saying the players on the Bulls got better would of course be admitting that the undoubted leader of the Bulls just might have had an influence in that.

seriously, you're just being a dumbshit about this now. I thought you were gonna stick to an intelligent discussion but with this bullshit, you can fuck off.

[monosylab1k]

And the original point was that Jordan was that factor that made the Bulls much better without making other components significantly better.
you never said significantly better. you said flat out that he didn't make his teammates better. no significant anywhere.

[mavs>spurs2]

You can't tell the difference between team success and making his teammates better? And you can't understand that saying a person didn't make his teammates better is not talking bad about a guy?

Are you really this retarded?

He did make his teammates better. He taught them how to win.

Just because he wasn't a point guard racking up 15 assists per game getting his teammates shots doesn't mean he didn't make them better. The Lakers are pretty much a modern version of what the Bulls would have been if Jordan wasn't a team player. Jordan and Kobe, 2 players of equal talent, one is the most competitive player ever and one is probably the most selfish. It takes a team to win, and to say Jordan ballhogged and bad mouthed his teammates to 6 championships is laughable.

[ambchang]

He did make his teammates better. He taught them how to win.

Just because he wasn't a point guard racking up 15 assists per game getting his teammates shots doesn't mean he didn't make them better. The Lakers are pretty much a modern version of what the Bulls would have been if Jordan wasn't a team player. Jordan and Kobe, 2 players of equal talent, one is the most competitive player ever and one is probably the most selfish. It takes a team to win, and to say Jordan ballhogged and bad mouthed his teammates to 6 championships is laughable.

Since when did I say Jordan ballhogged and bad-mouthed his teammates to 6 championships? I am saying what Kobe is doing now is similar to what Jordan did in the past.

And no, I am not even looking at assist numbers. I remember Jordan had quite a number of assists, especially for a shooting guard, but assists doesn't necessary make teammates better. Marbury, Iverson and Steve Francis rack up a decent amount of assists in their time, doesn't make their teammates that much better.

Finally, making your team win does not make players better. How did Jordan teach them to win? Jackson taught Jordan to win, and win he did because he was so talented and his team was so well-constructed. Jordan didn't teach, Jackson did.
Kerr, Perdue, and Harper were the only ones who played any significant roles on championship teams afterwards (off the top of my head, may have missed some). Harper played with Jackson during his Laker days, so the Jackson role was consistent, then Kerr played sparingly with the Spurs, and got a shining chance in 03, while Perdue was a good 3rd center with the Spurs in 99. But did Jordan teach the Wizards to win? They crashed and burned.

[stretch]

lol, 6 rings

[monosylab1k]

I am saying what Kobe is doing now is similar to what Jordan did in the past.

eh this is the first time you're using "similar" as well in describing Jordan with Kobe. previously your term du jour was "exactly the same"....see below.


Which is basically exactly the same thing Kobe is doing now.


But then why is Kobe Bryant being chastised for exactly the same thing?


I find it almost hilarious how people continue to use the 6 rings to justify Jordan being an ass most of those years, while grilling Kobe Bryant for doing the same thing.


I am not even concerned about whether Jordan was a better teammate than Duncan or not, my point is that you guys are applying double standards in saying that Jordan being a jerk is justified because that was competitive fire, and Kobe doing exactly the same thing (actually less of it) was him being a diva.


As long as people acknowledged that Jordan was a jerk, then I am fine. The part I didn't understand is how people are grilling Kobe for being exactly what Jordan was

as far as the last quote goes, i don't think anybody has failed to acknowledge that Jordan could be a jerk. That still doesn't make him a bad teammate in the vein of Kobe, and it doesn't mean he couldn't make his teammates better. Many of the world's greatest leaders in any profession were jerks.

[Findog]

My only real contribution to this running argument is that in their primes, they are about even in talent and ability. They are also both complete alpha males...but while Jordan was able to put aside some of his instincts to take over and do things himself and buy into the triangle and trust his teammates, Kobe never has been able to do that.

Jordan was completely secure about himself, his place in the game and his abilities to blend his talents with the team concept. Despite Kobe's talent and his confidence that he can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, on the court, Kobe is insecure as all get out, insecure about how other players view him, insecure about his legacy, insecure about how he is viewed by fans and the media, etc. Jordan was certainly very calculating about what he said and did in regards to his public image, but he was at peace with himself in a way that Kobe never has been.

[monosylab1k]

My only real contribution to this running argument is that in their primes, they are about even in talent and ability. They are also both complete alpha males...but while Jordan was able to put aside some of his instincts to take over and do things himself and buy into the triangle and trust his teammates, Kobe never has been able to do that.

Jordan was completely secure about himself, his place in the game and his abilities to blend his talents with the team concept. Despite Kobe's talent and his confidence that he can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, on the court, Kobe is insecure as all get out, insecure about how other players view him, insecure about his legacy, insecure about how he is viewed by fans and the media, etc. Jordan was certainly very calculating about what he said and did in regards to his public image, but he was at peace with himself in a way that Kobe never has been.

:tu :tu

lock the thread. after this, nothing else needs to be said.

[ambchang]

eh this is the first time you're using "similar" as well in describing Jordan with Kobe. previously your term du jour was "exactly the same"....see below.

as far as the last quote goes, i don't think anybody has failed to acknowledge that Jordan could be a jerk. That still doesn't make him a bad teammate in the vein of Kobe, and it doesn't mean he couldn't make his teammates better. Many of the world's greatest leaders in any profession were jerks.

As long as we all agree that Jordan was a jerk, then this is settled. I was sick of hearing how Jordan was so driven and his whole goal was to win when in fact, he has said that he wants to win with himself being the main reason. The man was very consciously trying to win for his own glory.

And yes, after the Game 7 example of brought up, I can no longer say they were exactly the same, it has been downgraded to similar.

[ambchang]

My only real contribution to this running argument is that in their primes, they are about even in talent and ability. They are also both complete alpha males...but while Jordan was able to put aside some of his instincts to take over and do things himself and buy into the triangle and trust his teammates, Kobe never has been able to do that.

Jordan was completely secure about himself, his place in the game and his abilities to blend his talents with the team concept. Despite Kobe's talent and his confidence that he can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, on the court, Kobe is insecure as all get out, insecure about how other players view him, insecure about his legacy, insecure about how he is viewed by fans and the media, etc. Jordan was certainly very calculating about what he said and did in regards to his public image, but he was at peace with himself in a way that Kobe never has been.

I agree with everything that was said in your post, and at least you did mention Jordan's selfish tendancies early on in his career before Jackson took over.

He later had a perfect running mate in Pippen who had the skills, talent and style of play that compliments Jordan's, resulting in Jordan loosening his grip on the team. Kobe doesn't have the same level of talent next to him since Shaq.

[stretch]

Shaq >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pippen.

If Jordan had Shaq, even with all the retirement years, he would have had well over 6 titles. And he wouldn't have destroyed a dream team either. Yet another difference between him and Kobe. Kobe could only get 3 with Shaq, then proceeded to fuck an entire team up with his piss poor attitude. You can't say anything like that about Jordan, and there is no way he would have pissed such an opportunity away, considering how his only issue with the Bulls was that they couldn't get him enough quality talent. Kobe wanted less talent to showcase his skills that everyone already knew of, and didn't really care about, unless he is winning rings.

[JamStone]

Shaq >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pippen.

If Jordan had Shaq, even with all the retirement years, he would have had well over 6 titles. And he wouldn't have destroyed a dream team either. Yet another difference between him and Kobe. Kobe could only get 3 with Shaq, then proceeded to fuck an entire team up with his piss poor attitude. You can't say anything like that about Jordan, and there is no way he would have pissed such an opportunity away, considering how his only issue with the Bulls was that they couldn't get him enough quality talent. Kobe wanted less talent to showcase his skills that everyone already knew of, and didn't really care about, unless he is winning rings.


That's bullshit. Jordan had one of the biggest egos ever in the history of sports. No way would he allow another player be as important as him, much less more important than him. He's just like Kobe in that regard. A Jordan in his prime could not play with a Shaq in his prime. Neither would want to play second fiddle. Jordan won because he was never challenged as the team's go-to guy. Shaq would have done that. And, Michael would not have liked that or allowed it.

[stretch]

That's bullshit. Jordan had one of the biggest egos ever in the history of sports. No way would he allow another player be as important as him, much less more important than him. He's just like Kobe in that regard. A Jordan in his prime could not play with a Shaq in his prime. Neither would want to play second fiddle. Jordan won because he was never challenged as the team's go-to guy. Shaq would have done that. And, Michael would not have liked that or allowed it.
Kobe also has one of the biggest ego's in sports history. His ego destroyed a team. Jordan didn't ever do that. Kobe wanted less talent to showcase his skills. Jordan wanted more talent to win.

[Reggie Miller]

That's bullshit. Jordan had one of the biggest egos ever in the history of sports. No way would he allow another player be as important as him, much less more important than him. He's just like Kobe in that regard. A Jordan in his prime could not play with a Shaq in his prime. Neither would want to play second fiddle. Jordan won because he was never challenged as the team's go-to guy. Shaq would have done that. And, Michael would not have liked that or allowed it.

As you may have noticed, Pistons' and Pacers' fans are not so enamored of MJ as the rest of the NBA world.

[stretch]

Another thing, Kobe came into the league as an unproven high schooler, and it took him a few years to develop into the player he became in the years they won titles, and Shaq was there for those developing years.

Jordan walked into the league, and immediately started averaging nearly 30 ppg, and very quickly established himself as the best talent in the league, and a deadly scorer/defender.

The Lakers was already Shaq's team, and Kobe was trying to take it for himself, and wouldn't play team ball with Shaq. That was the issue between those two. Also, Kobe has always been known for piss poor shot selection. Jordan was selfish, but still had a MUCH better shot selection than Kobe. Not to mention he was averaging over 50% shooting. Jordans greedy issues wasn't that he was taking dumb shots that were more than likely not going to go in, like Kobe's. Jordan's issues was that even though he was scoring so well, if he got the team involved more, then opposing defenses would have to respect those guys more, thus helping give Jordan more room to work with in clutch situations.

[stretch]

As you may have noticed, Pistons' and Pacers' fans are not so enamored of MJ as the rest of the NBA world.
We noticed. Jealous homers...

[samikeyp]

As long as we all agree that Jordan was a jerk, then this is settled. I was sick of hearing how Jordan was so driven and his whole goal was to win when in fact, he has said that he wants to win with himself being the main reason. The man was very consciously trying to win for his own glory.

I can't agree that Jordan was a jerk because I have never met the man, but I totally believe that he wanted to win for his own legacy. Still, I don't believe he was a bad teammate because he did things to help his teammates win games. Setting them up in position to do so, like Paxson's and Kerr's winning shots in the playoffs. To me, getting your teammates involved in your team's success is a good teammate. He may very well be a jerk off the court and in practice, but as long as he was part of the team on the court and does his job and helped others on the court to win games, that is all I would ask of a teammate.

Just my .02.

[samikeyp]

As you may have noticed, Pistons' and Pacers' fans are not so enamored of MJ as the rest of the NBA world.

Im sure Knicks and Jazz fans feel similarly.

[ambchang]

Kobe also has one of the biggest ego's in sports history. His ego destroyed a team. Jordan didn't ever do that. Kobe wanted less talent to showcase his skills. Jordan wanted more talent to win.
Ask Jerry Krause.

[monosylab1k]

Ask Jerry Krause.
if you really read The Jordan Rules like you claim, then it's pretty odd of you to reference Jerry Krause as some reputable source to talk about ego.

[stretch]

Jerry Krause was an idiot. I thought you started this discussion talking about stuff you read in the Jordan Rules. I seriously think you didn't read that book, otherwise you would know that Krause is an absolute fuckin moron.

[stretch]

if you really read The Jordan Rules like you claim, then it's pretty stupid of you to reference Jerry Krause as some reputable source to talk about ego.
haha, you beat me to it.

[Findog]

hmmm so let's say the Pistons are X1, X2, & X3. and they dominated the Bulls (Y) up through the 89-90 season.

X1 + X2 + X3 > Y1 + Y2 + Y3 in this case, up until the 89-90 season.

then in the 90-91 season, despite both teams having virtually the exact same components as the year before, this happens -

X1 + X2 + X3 < Y1 + Y2 + Y3

two exact same teams, yet in one year the results flip completely. HOW?

if all the components are exactly the same, how?

Well, they weren't exactly the same. Not to take anything away from Jordan, but it was a combination of the Bulls coming into their own and the Pistons slowly declining. The Bulls took them to seven games in the Piston's second championship year. Detroit then lost Mahorn to expansion, while a much younger Bulls team had Pippen and Horace Grant improve upon their previous year, since they were both on the upswing of their careers. Also, the Bulls were hungrier. Jordan and his team were obsessed with toppling Detroit, while Detroit's chemistry wasn't that great that year and they were fat and happy from winning two titles. They basically did to Detroit what the Pistons once did to Boston.

[ambchang]

I can't agree that Jordan was a jerk because I have never met the man, but I totally believe that he wanted to win for his own legacy. Still, I don't believe he was a bad teammate because he did things to help his teammates win games. Setting them up in position to do so, like Paxson's and Kerr's winning shots in the playoffs. To me, getting your teammates involved in your team's success is a good teammate. He may very well be a jerk off the court and in practice, but as long as he was part of the team on the court and does his job and helped others on the court to win games, that is all I would ask of a teammate.

Just my .02.

I don't remember 100%, but didn't Pippen steal the pass, passed it to Grant, and then Grant set up Paxson for the series clinching shot vs. Phoenix in 93? If you are talking about the 91 playoffs vs. the Lakers, where Paxson scored like 20 points, then yeah, I think Jordan had a hand in that.

[ambchang]

if you really read The Jordan Rules like you claim, then it's pretty odd of you to reference Jerry Krause as some reputable source to talk about ego.
It was about how Jordan never destroyed a team.
And I read that book when it came out, so it was what? 15 years ago? What is wrong with it and Krause's ego?

[stretch]

If you are talking about the 91 playoffs vs. the Lakers, where Paxson scored like 20 points, then yeah, I think Jordan had a hand in that.
You really didn't read that book dude. If you did, it wouldn't be "i think jordan had a hand in that."

no, he was the main hand in that. as I recall, they had a timeout, and Jordan already knew why they called the timeout, as Phil Jackson asked him "who is open, Michael?" and he said "Paxson." and that was the end of that. he penetrated like he had been all game, but when it got to a point they focused too much to ask any man to handle, he would use that attention that he drew, to free up Paxson for the kickout and a wide open jumper.

[stretch]

It was about how Jordan never destroyed a team.
And I read that book when it came out, so it was what? 15 years ago? What is wrong with it and Krause's ego?
Read it again then. Krause had a ridiculous ego. Not to mention he was an overlysensitive mofo that cried to Jerry Reinsdorf because he couldn't handle a couple jokes from Jordan and the rest of the team, who refered to him as "crumbs" because he was such a messy eater, and had a very strange, egotistical, and annoying personality.

[ambchang]

You really didn't read that book dude. If you did, it wouldn't be "i think jordan had a hand in that."

no, he was the main hand in that. as I recall, they had a timeout, and Jordan already knew why they called the timeout, as Phil Jackson asked him "who is open, Michael?" and he said "Paxson." and that was the end of that. he penetrated like he had been all game, but when it got to a point they focused too much to ask any man to handle, he would use that attention that he drew, to free up Paxson for the kickout and a wide open jumper.
How did having a hand in that contradict with what the book stated? Did say "Bullshit, Jordan sucked, he didn't pass the ball, it was all Pippen and Jackson"?
It has come to a point where you are simply arguing for arguing's sake, even when what I said agreed with what you did.

[stretch]

How did having a hand in that contradict with what the book stated? Did say "Bullshit, Jordan sucked, he didn't pass the ball, it was all Pippen and Jackson"?
It has come to a point where you are simply arguing for arguing's sake, even when what I said agreed with what you did.
It seems to me that you are just trying to find a way to discredit anything Jordan did. Like I said, if you read the book, it wouldnt just be a "possibility" that Jordan had a hand in it. You wouldn't just say "I think" he had a hand in it. He was the ONLY hand in it, and it was basically at the climax of the book, so I don't see how someone that read it, could not remember that.

[ambchang]

Read it again then. Krause had a ridiculous ego. Not to mention he was an overlysensitive mofo that cried to Jerry Reinsdorf because he couldn't handle a couple jokes from Jordan and the rest of the team, who refered to him as "crumbs" because he was such a messy eater, and had a very strange, egotistical, and annoying personality.
Also talked about the gravy stains too, how does that show Jordan didn't have a hand in dismantling the team after 98? Their public spats were well-known, Jackson, Jordan and Pippen was clashed repeatedly with management throughout their run, and it takes two to clash, just like Kobe's ego wouldn't have any effect if it didn't meet with Shaq's.
Kobe have as much to do with the Lakers breaking up as Shaq (maybe less, given the "Are you going to pay me now?" comments by Shaq), and Jordan has as much in dismantling the Bull as Krause.
There was also talk about Kukoc getting grilled by Jordan and Pippen because he was Krause's pet project, and absolutely nothing to do with his basketball ability.

[monosylab1k]

if you want to blame someone for the breakup of the Bulls, look no further than Jerry Krause. His personality was grating on all the players, and in fact, they all banded behind Jordan in showing their dislike of Krause.

Krause was eager to get rid of Michael & Phil just to prove that he could build a winner without them.

[ambchang]

It seems to me that you are just trying to find a way to discredit anything Jordan did. Like I said, if you read the book, it wouldnt just be a "possibility" that Jordan had a hand in it. You wouldn't just say "I think" he had a hand in it. He was the ONLY hand in it, and it was basically at the climax of the book, so I don't see how someone that read it, could not remember that.
When did I say it was merely a possibility? I said I think it was, just like I think Jordan didn't pass to Paxson in 93. I read the book 15 years ago, I watched that play 14 years ago, I don't remember exactly what happened or what I read, I remember bits and pieces of it.
My memory is not served for the purposes of remembering solely basketball related subjects.

[stretch]

Also talked about the gravy stains too, how does that show Jordan didn't have a hand in dismantling the team after 98? Their public spats were well-known, Jackson, Jordan and Pippen was clashed repeatedly with management throughout their run, and it takes two to clash, just like Kobe's ego wouldn't have any effect if it didn't meet with Shaq's.
Kobe have as much to do with the Lakers breaking up as Shaq (maybe less, given the "Are you going to pay me now?" comments by Shaq), and Jordan has as much in dismantling the Bull as Krause.
There was also talk about Kukoc getting grilled by Jordan and Pippen because he was Krause's pet project, and absolutely nothing to do with his basketball ability.
"Dismantling" a team by retiring is completely different than acting like a little crybaby to PURPOSELY dismantle it.

And Kukoc was getting grilled because Krause spent way too much time talking to a guy that was never truly planning on coming here, since at the time, he could have made more money in Europe. They were spending time and money on him, instead of pursuing other proven, quality players (true point guards in particular) that were available, such as Derek Harper, or Danny Ainge. Even Jackson was pissed with Kukoc because he was taking up way too much of the Bulls time, when he knew that he wasn't going to come any time soon, that he was just using the Bulls as a way to negotiate with a team in Europe.

[stretch]

if you want to blame someone for the breakup of the Bulls, look no further than Jerry Krause. His personality was grating on all the players, and in fact, they all banded behind Jordan in showing their dislike of Krause.
That was one part they talked about in the book that actually bonded the team, was that they all hated Krause equally. Do you remember that part, ambchang, or are you going to conveniently "forget" more crap?

[samikeyp]

I stand corrected on the Paxson shot, but my opinion of Jordan remains unchanged.

[ambchang]

"Dismantling" a team by retiring is completely different than acting like a little crybaby to PURPOSELY dismantle it.

That despite the fact that Jerry Buss, Phil Jackson and later on Kobe Bryant came out and said that he never requested Shaq traded, and even Shaq himself coming out that Kobe didn't have a hand in the trade.

Kobe has been villianized by the press over and over again, but some of the allegations were simply untrue.

[ambchang]

That was one part they talked about in the book that actually bonded the team, was that they all hated Krause equally. Do you remember that part, ambchang, or are you going to conveniently "forget" more crap?
Yes, the team bonded while ultimately led to the team breaking up and not having the chance of winning more titles. Certainly a great way to be a leader.

[stretch]

That despite the fact that Jerry Buss, Phil Jackson and later on Kobe Bryant came out and said that he never requested Shaq traded, and even Shaq himself coming out that Kobe didn't have a hand in the trade.

Kobe has been villianized by the press over and over again, but some of the allegations were simply untrue.
I'm not saying that Kobe asked for Shaq to be traded. But the way he acted like a baby to the team and on a personal scale, got to the point that no one wanted to deal with him. Jackson himself said that for a while, Kobe was too difficult of a player for him to coach.

[stretch]

Yes, the team bonded while ultimately led to the team breaking up and not having the chance of winning more titles. Certainly a great way to be a leader.
They won 6 titles. I really don't see how you can discredit the team for winning 6 titles. That's simply ignorant and stupid.

All things come to an end. In this case, the team came to an end with Jordan's retirement. Much like the showtime Lakers were done once Kareem retired and Magic got AIDS. Are you going to tell me that Magic is a terrible leader because he was too busy fucking multiple bitches at the same time?

[mavs>spurs2]

They won 6 titles. I really don't see how you can discredit the team for winning 6 titles. That's simply ignorant and stupid.

All things come to an end. In this case, the team came to an end with Jordan's retirement. Much like the showtime Lakers were done once Kareem retired and Magic got AIDS. Are you going to tell me that Magic is a terrible leader because he was too busy fucking multiple bitches at the same time?

:lmao

[Findog]

:lmao


Buck got the AIDS.

[Reggie Miller]

Im sure Knicks and Jazz fans feel similarly.

It was worse being in the same division. Just trust me on this one...

[samikeyp]

It was worse being in the same division. Just trust me on this one...

No doubt.

[ambchang]

They won 6 titles. I really don't see how you can discredit the team for winning 6 titles. That's simply ignorant and stupid.

All things come to an end. In this case, the team came to an end with Jordan's retirement. Much like the showtime Lakers were done once Kareem retired and Magic got AIDS. Are you going to tell me that Magic is a terrible leader because he was too busy fucking multiple bitches at the same time?

Didn't Kobe and Shaq win 3 titles together? So why isn't Kobe getting a free pass like Jordan? I never came up with the Jordan = terrible leader because he broke up the team, the point originally came as Kobe was terrible because he broke up his team.
Thanks for showing how stupid that original argument was with Kareem and Magic.

[stretch]

Kobe doesn't get a free pass because he was still young, and only starting to hit his prime, and was acting like a douchebag just to have his own team. It's not like Jordan, who was already starting to get past his prime, and had already done everything that you can ask of an NBA player, and had absolutely nothing else to prove. Jordan didn't get all public and make personal attacks on people just to break up a team for his own "benefit" (which ultimately it has not benefited Kobe one bit at all). Jordan did his thing, then left when he felt his time playing basketball in the NBA was done. Those are VERY different situations.

[stretch]

and another thing... going back to your first post... you said IF Jordan didn't win 6 rings, blah blah blah...

if you wanna play the "woulda coulda" game... then if Tim Duncan didn't win 4 rings, he would be considered the next Karl Malone. If Kevin Garnett won a few rings, he would probably be considered the best PF of all time. If Charles Barkley won a ring or two, no one would consider him a "choker."

the fact is, is that Jordan won 6 rings by being a good team player. he accomplished more than any player in the NBA, and on the court, did exactly what good teammates and great players are supposed to do (and ultimately, you are judged by what you did on the court... not off the court).

[ambchang]

Jordan led a revolt against management, "retired", then came back and destroyed the Wizards until he was forced out. How was that not acting like douchebag to get his own team. Better yet, he was expanding his power of influence in the ranks of management. He arguably earned all of that prestige by leading the Bulls to 6 titles, but that was being a douchebag nonetheless.
The "if" comment was used to illustrate that no one would be changing history and giving him a free pass. The difference is, if Duncan never won any rings, yes he would be on the level of Karl Malone, no doubt, but the thing is, Jordan still wasn't a great teammate despite winning 6 titles, just that if he never won it, nobody would be defending him like they do now.
BTW, Barkley wasn't a choker, Malone was. Barkley scored 56 points in a finals game, hit a dagger over Robinson in 93, and carried the 6ers to great heights despite a crappy supporting cast.

[stretch]

Jordan led a revolt against management, "retired", then came back and destroyed the Wizards until he was forced out. How was that not acting like douchebag to get his own team. Better yet, he was expanding his power of influence in the ranks of management. He arguably earned all of that prestige by leading the Bulls to 6 titles, but that was being a douchebag nonetheless.

How the fuck did he destroy the Wizards when playing there? That team SUCKED, but he had them as playoff contenders in his years there, and was actually pissed at how immature many of the players on the team were. Seriously, you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.


The "if" comment was used to illustrate that no one would be changing history and giving him a free pass. The difference is, if Duncan never won any rings, yes he would be on the level of Karl Malone, no doubt, but the thing is, Jordan still wasn't a great teammate despite winning 6 titles, just that if he never won it, nobody would be defending him like they do now.
BTW, Barkley wasn't a choker, Malone was. Barkley scored 56 points in a finals game, hit a dagger over Robinson in 93, and carried the 6ers to great heights despite a crappy supporting cast.

Coulda shoulda woulda... he has his 6 rings, and got them with a very mediocre supporting cast. Of course no one would defend him as much if he doesn't have the 6 rings. Just like if Kobe won a ring without Shaq, there wouldn't be quite as much criticism of him either. But he hasn't won shit, and hasn't proven that he is capable of being a good teammate on the court, like Jordan was, and he hasn't proven that he is a winner, like Jordan did. Jordan answered all his critics in every aspect possible. Kobe hasn't. They said Jordan wasn't good enough defensively; he won a DPOY and made the ALL-NBA First defensive team a number of times. They called him a choker; he did nothing but kick ass in all kinds of clutch moments and big games and is now considered the most clutch player ever. They said he couldn't play like a team player and win the big one; he won 5 MVPs and 6 titles, and is inarguably the greatest player in NBA history.

6 rings, 5 MVPs, GOAT.

END OF THE FUCKING DISCUSSION.

I'll take that in a guy who can be a dickhead to his teammates at times, anyday over having a "good teammate" or "class citizen" that doesnt win any titles, period.

[mavs>spurs2]

I'm with stretch on this one..as any nba fan should be

Jordan was great, and its just ridiculous to rag on him and say he was a bad teammate

Im not sure what's going through ambchang's mind when hes saying all this..but ill give him a free pass its been a long offseason and maybe hes just bored out of his mind.

[ambchang]

How the fuck did he destroy the Wizards when playing there? That team SUCKED, but he had them as playoff contenders in his years there, and was actually pissed at how immature many of the players on the team were. Seriously, you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

There are always two sides to the story. Jordan had a messy breakup with the Wizards because of control issues, and he wouldn't let go and let the young team developed. For the sake of satisfying Jordan's will to win immediately, the Wizards did not develop young players for two years.


Coulda shoulda woulda... he has his 6 rings, and got them with a very mediocre supporting cast. Of course no one would defend him as much if he doesn't have the 6 rings. Just like if Kobe won a ring without Shaq, there wouldn't be quite as much criticism of him either. But he hasn't won shit, and hasn't proven that he is capable of being a good teammate on the court, like Jordan was, and he hasn't proven that he is a winner, like Jordan did. Jordan answered all his critics in every aspect possible. Kobe hasn't. They said Jordan wasn't good enough defensively; he won a DPOY and made the ALL-NBA First defensive team a number of times. They called him a choker; he did nothing but kick ass in all kinds of clutch moments and big games and is now considered the most clutch player ever. They said he couldn't play like a team player and win the big one; he won 5 MVPs and 6 titles, and is inarguably the greatest player in NBA history.

6 rings, 5 MVPs, GOAT.

END OF THE FUCKING DISCUSSION.

I'll take that in a guy who can be a dickhead to his teammates at times, anyday over having a "good teammate" or "class citizen" that doesnt win any titles, period.

And I would take this player too, so as long as you agree that he was as much of a jerk as Kobe. I couldn't understand how people can see me as disliking Jordan by refusing to acknowledge that he was perfect in everyway.

Magic is my #1 player of all time, but I am ready to say that his individual defense is not at an all-time great level, Robinson is my favourite player of all time, but would easily say that he had a poor post up game for a big man, so why can't I say Jordan wasn't a great teammate?

[ambchang]

I'm with stretch on this one..as any nba fan should be

Jordan was great, and its just ridiculous to rag on him and say he was a bad teammate

Im not sure what's going through ambchang's mind when hes saying all this..but ill give him a free pass its been a long offseason and maybe hes just bored out of his mind.

I am in fact bored out of my mind, can't wait till next week ..... :lol :lol
Anyways, I just didn't like seeing how people have double standards for Kobe and Jordan for doing similar things to their teammates, but oh well.

[mavs>spurs2]

I think they main difference is that Michaels actions spoke for themselves..regardless of anything else, but this isn't always the case with Kobe. When Jordan criticized his teammates, then goes out and busts his ass for them, people see that he is doing it for the better of the team and MJ got results. When Kobe criticizes teammates, especially around playoff time, it usually results in a frustration because the Lakers just aren't an elite team. Untill Kobe wins something without Shaq people are going to continue to criticize him, whether its right or wrong.

[stretch]

There are always two sides to the story. Jordan had a messy breakup with the Wizards because of control issues, and he wouldn't let go and let the young team developed. For the sake of satisfying Jordan's will to win immediately, the Wizards did not develop young players for two years.



And I would take this player too, so as long as you agree that he was as much of a jerk as Kobe. I couldn't understand how people can see me as disliking Jordan by refusing to acknowledge that he was perfect in everyway.

Magic is my #1 player of all time, but I am ready to say that his individual defense is not at an all-time great level, Robinson is my favourite player of all time, but would easily say that he had a poor post up game for a big man, so why can't I say Jordan wasn't a great teammate?
Not once did I disagree that he was a jerk, like Kobe.

But knocking on him, for not winning more than 6 titles is fuckin stupid. That was what I was debating the whole time.

As for Magic being your #1 guy... I would like to see how you defend that. So without further ado... how is Magic Johnson the greatest player in NBA history in your book?

[stretch]

I think they main difference is that Michaels actions spoke for themselves..regardless of anything else, but this isn't always the case with Kobe. When Jordan criticized his teammates, then goes out and busts his ass for them, people see that he is doing it for the better of the team and MJ got results. When Kobe criticizes teammates, especially around playoff time, it usually results in a frustration because the Lakers just aren't an elite team. Untill Kobe wins something without Shaq people are going to continue to criticize him, whether its right or wrong.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Michael always backed up anything he did and said. On the other hand, Kobe gave up on his team when they were in a position to pull off a huge upset.

[big3bigD]

Not once did I disagree that he was a jerk, like Kobe.

But knocking on him, for not winning more than 6 titles is fuckin stupid. That was what I was debating the whole time.

As for Magic being your #1 guy... I would like to see how you defend that. So without further ado... how is Magic Johnson the greatest player in NBA history in your book?


I would have to say Jordan, because the records and hardware back it up, however, Magic is definately in the conversation. He is the only "great" player that was truly able to play all 5 spots on the floor, and he played them all well. Magic's court vision and playmaking ability are far superior to Jordan's. Jordan won the most rings with the least help though. Jordan's shooting and his D were better than Magic's. Magic had so many good players around him......

[Brutalis]

Jordan was great but selfish, cynical and over-hyped in a crazy 90s. 90% of the fans were kids in that generation and MJ now compared to then isn't as amazing or whatever after his comeback stints and draft adding to the poverty of people bringing his airness up again. It got old a few years ago.

He played how he wanted and either you jumped on his back or got shit on, pretty much.

[ambchang]

Not once did I disagree that he was a jerk, like Kobe.

But knocking on him, for not winning more than 6 titles is fuckin stupid. That was what I was debating the whole time.

As for Magic being your #1 guy... I would like to see how you defend that. So without further ado... how is Magic Johnson the greatest player in NBA history in your book?
I don't think knocked him for not winning more than 6 titles, it could have been another person.

As for Magic being the #1 guy, it would be a very difficult argument based on his numbers, because he wasn't a particularly impressive scorer, he's "only" #2 in career assists, despite being known as the best passer in the history of the league, his individual defense is around average, but the following things are what stood out to me:

1) He changed the game - The 70s was the dark ages for basketball as players were mired in drug abuse and suffering terrible image problems. Individual plays have taken over the team concept, and teams just generally sucked. Entered Magic and Bird, and the whole landscape changed because they brought the team concept back to sports.

2) Leadership - Not many people can have the greatest center of all time willingly concede their leadership role on a 3-time NBA champion, but Magic did that with a grumpy center to boast, and won 2 more titles after wards.

3) Making his teammates better - Worthy had a 10% drop in FG% (or something like that) the year Magic retired, Kareem prolonged his career, he made Byron Scott near all-star, and integrated Vlade Divac right out of Europe, then there are the Coopers, the Wilkes and the Norm Nixons who undoubtedly had better stats with than without Magic. In all, Magic orchestrated the best offense in the history of the league to perfection.

4) 5 champsionships in arguably the toughest era in basketball, made the NBA finals 9 times in 12 years. And he beat some of the best teams in the league's history (76ers and Celtics).

5) Stats - yes, it wasn't as eye-popping as those of Wilt, Jordan, or even Bird, but he is the closest to averaging a triple-double for a whole season since the Big O, he is as versatile as a player could possibly be.

[stretch]

I don't think knocked him for not winning more than 6 titles, it could have been another person.

How is complaining that he could have won more titles not knocking him?


As for Magic being the #1 guy, it would be a very difficult argument based on his numbers, because he wasn't a particularly impressive scorer, he's "only" #2 in career assists, despite being known as the best passer in the history of the league, his individual defense is around average, but the following things are what stood out to me:

1) He changed the game - The 70s was the dark ages for basketball as players were mired in drug abuse and suffering terrible image problems. Individual plays have taken over the team concept, and teams just generally sucked. Entered Magic and Bird, and the whole landscape changed because they brought the team concept back to sports.

2) Leadership - Not many people can have the greatest center of all time willingly concede their leadership role on a 3-time NBA champion, but Magic did that with a grumpy center to boast, and won 2 more titles after wards.

3) Making his teammates better - Worthy had a 10% drop in FG% (or something like that) the year Magic retired, Kareem prolonged his career, he made Byron Scott near all-star, and integrated Vlade Divac right out of Europe, then there are the Coopers, the Wilkes and the Norm Nixons who undoubtedly had better stats with than without Magic. In all, Magic orchestrated the best offense in the history of the league to perfection.

4) 5 champsionships in arguably the toughest era in basketball, made the NBA finals 9 times in 12 years. And he beat some of the best teams in the league's history (76ers and Celtics).

5) Stats - yes, it wasn't as eye-popping as those of Wilt, Jordan, or even Bird, but he is the closest to averaging a triple-double for a whole season since the Big O, he is as versatile as a player could possibly be.

Here is my argument for Jordan. Everything that Magic accomplished, Jordan surpassed, except for his passing stats and abilities (which Jordan was also an incredible passer, but was a scorer first, but his passing abilities could have allowed him to easily average 10 APG... then again, he didn't have James Worthy, Byron Scott, Michael Cooper, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar to throw passes to... he had Bill Cartwright, Scottie Pippen, and John Paxson... LOL)

Magic got 5 titles. Jordan got 6.

Magic got 3 Finals MVPS. Jordan got 6.

Magic went to 12 All-Star games. Jordan went to 14.

Magic got 3 MVPs. Jordan got 5.

Magic got 1 Olympic Gold Medal. Jordan got 2.

Magic was a 9-Time ALL-NBA first teamer. Jordan was a 10-time ALL-NBA first teamer.

Jordan led his team to a perfect record in Finals appearances. Magic did not.

Jordan won 10 scoring titles. Magic won none.

Jordan was a regular on the ALL-NBA defensive first team (9 times). Magic I don't believe made it once.

Magic may have played in an era with some great teams (Celtics, 76ers, Pistons), but Jordan played in a more balanced era, with a FAR less talented team. Not to mention, defense was actually a staple in the NBA in the era that Michael was winning in. There was a very minimal amount of defense played in Magic's era. And the 90's had some very good teams. There weren't quite as many teams with losing records making the playoffs as well, as the talent was more balanced, thus making it more difficult to have those 60+ win seasons, as opposed to the 80s, when there were 4 or 5 good teams, then everyone else pretty much sucked, because all the best players were on those great teams. But just because most teams in the 90s didnt win titles (due to the absolute dominance of Jordan), doesn't mean they werent good teams. The Suns had a VERY good team. The Jazz were a damn good team as well. Don't forget the Sonics, Rockets, Knicks, Pacers, Magic... there were plenty of solid teams in the 90's as well, and plenty of competition that Jordan had to deal with as well.

Sorry, but when you look at the entire picture, I really don't see how you can even think about saying Magic was the best player in NBA history. I used to think it was somewhat debatable, but after looking deeper into everything... about the only things that he beat Jordan out in was having better court vision, better assist numbers, and having a big body that allowed him to play bigger positions (which would NOT have worked in the 90s or today, because people actually have to play defense in this era). He would get absolutely manhandled by guys like Duncan, Garnett, Yao, Dirk, and Amare.

I hate saying it, because I loved Magic, and he was always one of my favorite players of all time, and I honestly think that he is still a top 5 player of all time, but he is also overrated by many as well, including yourself.

[JamStone]

Couldn't have said it better myself. Michael always backed up anything he did and said. On the other hand, Kobe gave up on his team when they were in a position to pull off a huge upset.


Michael Jordan said he would get the Wizards in the playoffs in the first season he played with them. He said they'd contend for a title in his second season with them.

Watch how you use absolutes like "always."

[stretch]

Michael Jordan said he would get the Wizards in the playoffs in the first season he played with them. He said they'd contend for a title in his second season with them.

Watch how you use absolutes like "always."
Don't pull that crap, hater. You know damn well what I meant.

[stretch]

or as the Sgt. Dignam Troll would probably say to Jamstone...

"Oh, you're a fuckin genius. Who forged your transcript, dickhead?"

[JamStone]

well at least we know the MO of Jordan detractors - just point out his failure as a 38 year old playing alongside Kwame Brown. That really proves how overrated Jordan was, right?

Pistons fans like to coveniently forget that Jordan used to play for the Bulls.

"he was shit with the Wizards! Jordan sucks! Yes! Psh thirty-eight schmirty-eight, ppl call him GOAT and he sucked with the Wizards!"

He's not overrated. How does what I said equate to me saying he's overrated?

He was one of the greatest winners in the history of the NBA, and he's one of the best players ever to play the game.

The guy was not perfect. I don't discredit his achievements at all. He was one of the greatest ever, probably the greatest.

He was also an egomaniac, a degenerate gambler, an incessant adulterer, and a bad teammate. Just because he was those things, it doesn't mean he wasn't one of the greatest basketball players ever. It just means he was those things as well.

[samikeyp]

I used to think that Magic was the best until Jordan finshed up. My argument for Magic was that during his career he could have been a legit all-star at all five positions. Jordan was awesome and could have dominated the 1,2 and 3 and maybe even the 4 but could not have survived the 5 spot in the era he played. By the time Jordan was done with the Bulls, I changed my mind about who was the best ever. IMO, the best player because I never saw any one player will a victory for his team like Jordan did.

Just my .02. Not wrong, not right...just one person's view. My personal opinion and not a suggested course of action.


BTW, I also disagree about Robinson's post game but that is for another thread.

[ambchang]

How is complaining that he could have won more titles not knocking him?

I meant I don't think I said he could have won more titles, I think it was another person.


Here is my argument for Jordan. Everything that Magic accomplished, Jordan surpassed, except for his passing stats and abilities (which Jordan was also an incredible passer, but was a scorer first, but his passing abilities could have allowed him to easily average 10 APG... then again, he didn't have James Worthy, Byron Scott, Michael Cooper, and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar to throw passes to... he had Bill Cartwright, Scottie Pippen, and John Paxson... LOL)

Magic got 5 titles. Jordan got 6.

Magic got 3 Finals MVPS. Jordan got 6.

Magic went to 12 All-Star games. Jordan went to 14.

Magic got 3 MVPs. Jordan got 5.

Magic got 1 Olympic Gold Medal. Jordan got 2.

Magic was a 9-Time ALL-NBA first teamer. Jordan was a 10-time ALL-NBA first teamer.

Jordan led his team to a perfect record in Finals appearances. Magic did not.

Jordan won 10 scoring titles. Magic won none.

Jordan was a regular on the ALL-NBA defensive first team (9 times). Magic I don't believe made it once.

Magic may have played in an era with some great teams (Celtics, 76ers, Pistons), but Jordan played in a more balanced era, with a FAR less talented team. Not to mention, defense was actually a staple in the NBA in the era that Michael was winning in. There was a very minimal amount of defense played in Magic's era. And the 90's had some very good teams. There weren't quite as many teams with losing records making the playoffs as well, as the talent was more balanced, thus making it more difficult to have those 60+ win seasons, as opposed to the 80s, when there were 4 or 5 good teams, then everyone else pretty much sucked, because all the best players were on those great teams. But just because most teams in the 90s didnt win titles (due to the absolute dominance of Jordan), doesn't mean they werent good teams. The Suns had a VERY good team. The Jazz were a damn good team as well. Don't forget the Sonics, Rockets, Knicks, Pacers, Magic... there were plenty of solid teams in the 90's as well, and plenty of competition that Jordan had to deal with as well.

Sorry, but when you look at the entire picture, I really don't see how you can even think about saying Magic was the best player in NBA history. I used to think it was somewhat debatable, but after looking deeper into everything... about the only things that he beat Jordan out in was having better court vision, better assist numbers, and having a big body that allowed him to play bigger positions (which would NOT have worked in the 90s or today, because people actually have to play defense in this era). He would get absolutely manhandled by guys like Duncan, Garnett, Yao, Dirk, and Amare.

I hate saying it, because I loved Magic, and he was always one of my favorite players of all time, and I honestly think that he is still a top 5 player of all time, but he is also overrated by many as well, including yourself.

I certainly couldn't say that Magic was definitely better than Jordan, but I would like to point out that a lot of your statistics were in Jordan's favour because:

1) Magic had better competition than Jordan. Celtics, 6ers and Pistons, even Rockets, were definitely better competition than the Knicks, Pacers, Portland and Suns.

2) Jordan simply played longer. If Magic played for a longer time, he too would have more All-NBA first teams, All-Star games. Not including their respective ill-advised comebacks, Jordan played one more season (explaining the All-star and All-NBA)

3) Magic is one of the rare players who could simply take over the game without scoring a point, he is like Kidd, only much much better. He made the whole Lakers more dangerous.

But overall, no question than defense was more established since the days of hte bad boys, and that Jordan was simply a more dominant individual. It ultimately goes to Magic maximizing the talents of those around him.

[stretch]

I certainly couldn't say that Magic was definitely better than Jordan, but I would like to point out that a lot of your statistics were in Jordan's favour because:

1) Magic had better competition than Jordan. Celtics, 6ers and Pistons, even Rockets, were definitely better competition than the Knicks, Pacers, Portland and Suns.


Magic also had a loaded roster against other teams with loaded rosters. Jordan went against teams with very, very good rosters, with a very average roster. And don't forget, that Jordan actually had some of his best statistical years during the same era that Magic played... and that was before he even hit his prime. So that era crap is bogus. Not to mention... again... Jordan played in an era where there is FAR more defense played, as opposed to the 80s, in which there was minimal defense played.




2) Jordan simply played longer. If Magic played for a longer time, he too would have more All-NBA first teams, All-Star games. Not including their respective ill-advised comebacks, Jordan played one more season (explaining the All-star and All-NBA)

Jordan also had a season where he was hurt, and only started like 7 games. Take that one away, and Jordan has only 11 true seasons. But the only seasons I will take away for statistical sake for Jordan, are the injury year, and the 95 comeback. I still credit the Wizard's seasons to him, even though they were well past his prime. The only year I take away for Magic is the 1996 comeback. So really yes, Jordan still played one more year, although those two years were one of those "ill-advised comebacks." But in that comeback, he was still an all-star caliber player, despite how old he was, and being retired for several years. Magic's comeback was a complete faliure on the other hand.


3) Magic is one of the rare players who could simply take over the game without scoring a point, he is like Kidd, only much much better. He made the whole Lakers more dangerous.

But overall, no question than defense was more established since the days of hte bad boys, and that Jordan was simply a more dominant individual. It ultimately goes to Magic maximizing the talents of those around him.

Again, let's see how easy it is for Magic to take over a game without scoring much, with teammates like Will Perdue, Craig Hodges, and John Paxson. Suddenly, he's going to be forced to score, isnt he? I guarantee that if Jordan had guys like Kareem, Cooper, and Worthy, he could have done just as good of a job. And he maximizes talents of those around him in different ways. Magic did it by great ball distribution, and smarts. Jordan did it by his mere presence, drawing double and triple teams to free his teammates up for much easier shots. Unfortunately, they would miss half the shots, or drop the amazing no-look passes that he would give them, and fuck all his efforts up. Again, its MUCH EASIER to make players with talent look good, as opposed to players with no talent look good.

[ambchang]

Magic also had a loaded roster against other teams with loaded rosters. Jordan went against teams with very, very good rosters, with a very average roster. And don't forget, that Jordan actually had some of his best statistical years during the same era that Magic played... and that was before he even hit his prime. So that era crap is bogus. Not to mention... again... Jordan played in an era where there is FAR more defense played, as opposed to the 80s, in which there was minimal defense played.

I wouldn't call Jordan's title team having a very average roster. Pippen is one of the best SF of all-time (best perimeter defender IMO, better than Bowen and Cooper), Grant is an all-star caliber PF (so was Rodman in the 2nd 3-peat), Cartwright was a fantastic low-post defender. He was way past his prime, but he still had that sweeping awkward (but unblockable) jumpshot, and there were those sharp shooters. It wasn't close to the Magic teams in terms of talent, but it's not just very average.

When Jordan played with a less defensively oriented league, he averaged more points, but when Magic played in a more defensive-oriented league (late 89 to 91), he still put up similar stats.



Jordan also had a season where he was hurt, and only started like 7 games. Take that one away, and Jordan has only 11 true seasons. But the only seasons I will take away for statistical sake for Jordan, are the injury year, and the 95 comeback. I still credit the Wizard's seasons to him, even though they were well past his prime. The only year I take away for Magic is the 1996 comeback. So really yes, Jordan still played one more year, although those two years were one of those "ill-advised comebacks." But in that comeback, he was still an all-star caliber player, despite how old he was, and being retired for several years. Magic's comeback was a complete faliure on the other hand.

Magic also had an injury year, I think he played like 35 or 37 games that year. And Magic's comeback was decent, he played PF, and was only forced to retire because the 12-year-old-impregnating Karl Malone was complaining about AIDS after a cut by Magic.


Again, let's see how easy it is for Magic to take over a game without scoring much, with teammates like Will Perdue, Craig Hodges, and John Paxson. Suddenly, he's going to be forced to score, isnt he? I guarantee that if Jordan had guys like Kareem, Cooper, and Worthy, he could have done just as good of a job. And he maximizes talents of those around him in different ways. Magic did it by great ball distribution, and smarts. Jordan did it by his mere presence, drawing double and triple teams to free his teammates up for much easier shots. Unfortunately, they would miss half the shots, or drop the amazing no-look passes that he would give them, and fuck all his efforts up. Again, its MUCH EASIER to make players with talent look good, as opposed to players with no talent look good.

I would agree that Magic definitely benefited by having great teammates, but he was doing exactly the same in Michigan, and in 90 and 91, when the Lakers were notably less talented, he still led the team to great post-season success, including a finals appearance in 91 vs. Jordan.

There is just no way you can argue Jordan could make his teammates better than Magic could. BTW, Magic could score, he usually scores when his team struggles. He may not be able to average 37 like Jordan, but he could average 25 a game.

[stretch]

I wouldn't call Jordan's title team having a very average roster. Pippen is one of the best SF of all-time (best perimeter defender IMO, better than Bowen and Cooper), Grant is an all-star caliber PF (so was Rodman in the 2nd 3-peat), Cartwright was a fantastic low-post defender. He was way past his prime, but he still had that sweeping awkward (but unblockable) jumpshot, and there were those sharp shooters. It wasn't close to the Magic teams in terms of talent, but it's not just very average.

When Jordan played with a less defensively oriented league, he averaged more points, but when Magic played in a more defensive-oriented league (late 89 to 91), he still put up similar stats.




Magic also had an injury year, I think he played like 35 or 37 games that year. And Magic's comeback was decent, he played PF, and was only forced to retire because the 12-year-old-impregnating Karl Malone was complaining about AIDS after a cut by Magic.



I would agree that Magic definitely benefited by having great teammates, but he was doing exactly the same in Michigan, and in 90 and 91, when the Lakers were notably less talented, he still led the team to great post-season success, including a finals appearance in 91 vs. Jordan.

There is just no way you can argue Jordan could make his teammates better than Magic could. BTW, Magic could score, he usually scores when his team struggles. He may not be able to average 37 like Jordan, but he could average 25 a game.

Not once did I argue that he could make his teammates better than Magic. I just said that he does make his teammates better. And he is a better basketball player. There is no accomplishment at all that Magic surpassed Jordan in. Every accomplishment worth mentioning, Jordan surpassed Magic.

As for your ridiculous defense of Magic's stats entering into an era with more defense... there are some more stats that you overlooked, that Magic's minutes actually went up in those years, while Jordan's decreased. Not to mention, Jordan was playing a different style, as instead of going ISO all the time, he began playing a little more in the triangle offense, and started playing better team ball (which was also when he started winning championships... 6 to be exact... which was also more than Magic... one of them coming in a head-to-head matchup with Magic in his prime, with still an at least equally, if not still more talented team than the Bulls... only to get waxed in 5 games)

[LakeShow]

I like this accomplishment by Magic, don't know if anyone else has matched it other than Billy Thompson but he benefited by going to the lakers and playing with Magic.

Won the NCAA Championship and the NBA Championship back to back!

[stretch]

Jordan won an NCAA championship, and three-peated in the NBA... twice.

[samikeyp]

Jordan also has two gold medals while Magic has a High School championship.

Magic is one of only three that have won a HS, College and Pro championship and a gold medal. Jerry Lucas and Bill Russell did too.

Needless to say, both players were two of the best ever.

[LakeShow]

Jordan also has two gold medals while Magic has a High School championship.

Magic is one of only three that have won a HS, College and Pro championship and a gold medal. Jerry Lucas and Bill Russell did too.

Needless to say, both players were two of the best ever.

Agreed

[Johnny RIngo]

Jordan was an asshole to his teammates and, from what I hear, acts like a prick to his fans. Doesn't change the fact that he's the GOAT though. No player will ever come close to rivaling his accomplishments.

[atxrocker]

this argument is fucking stupid and should not have gone past 2 pages...

[ambchang]

If we are going strictly by accomplishments, it would be hard to argue against Kareem and Russell.

Kareem:
19 all-star games
2 Finals MVP
6-time MVP
6 championshops
1st in scoring.
10 time All-NBA 1st + a bunch of 2nds
All-Defensive teams
#3 in rebounds (or was it #2, I don't remember), tops in blocks.

Then there is Russell:
11 time NBA champion
12 time all-star
5 time mvp and ridiculous rebounding #s.

Yes, Jordan is great, got as many accomplishments in his career, but it should also be noted that he was going up against the likes of Ewing and Miller. It's not like he was going up against Bird, Dr. J and Moses Malone.

[mavs>spurs2]

If we are going strictly by accomplishments, it would be hard to argue against Kareem and Russell.

Kareem:
19 all-star games
2 Finals MVP
6-time MVP
6 championshops
1st in scoring.
10 time All-NBA 1st + a bunch of 2nds
All-Defensive teams
#3 in rebounds (or was it #2, I don't remember), tops in blocks.

Then there is Russell:
11 time NBA champion
12 time all-star
5 time mvp and ridiculous rebounding #s.

Yes, Jordan is great, got as many accomplishments in his career, but it should also be noted that he was going up against the likes of Ewing and Miller. It's not like he was going up against Bird, Dr. J and Moses Malone.

You always start off your argument with stats or information that can't be disputed, then close your post with misleading information.

Yea, Jordan won against Ewing and Miller, who by the way are great players themselves. But he also won against Robinson, Shaq, Stockton, Malone, Kevin Johnson, etc there were many great players in the league back in Jordan's prime.

[SRJ]

Jordan was not a great teammate. But he was a good enough teammate to win as much as he did, and he was certainly a better teammate than Kobe.

But let's not pretend Jordan has a flawless character because he won so much.

[ambchang]

You always start off your argument with stats or information that can't be disputed, then close your post with misleading information.

Yea, Jordan won against Ewing and Miller, who by the way are great players themselves. But he also won against Robinson, Shaq, Stockton, Malone, Kevin Johnson, etc there were many great players in the league back in Jordan's prime.

I simply chose the two more representative ones, two of the ones that are classic Jordan rivals. But I am fine with saying that Robinson (my favourite player of all time) , Shaq, Stockton & Malone, Kevin Johnson, Charles Barkley (one of my favourites), and Clyde Drexler (also one of my favourite), but none of those players were as good as Bird, Moses Malone, and Dr. J (with Andrew Toney, Bobby Jones and Mo Cheeks as the 3rd, 4th and 5th wheel to boot). Hell, McHale, the 2nd fiddle in the Celtics team, was better than or equal to greatness in about half of the listed players.

[stretch]

If we are going strictly by accomplishments, it would be hard to argue against Kareem and Russell.

Kareem:
19 all-star games
2 Finals MVP
6-time MVP
6 championshops
1st in scoring.
10 time All-NBA 1st + a bunch of 2nds
All-Defensive teams
#3 in rebounds (or was it #2, I don't remember), tops in blocks.

Then there is Russell:
11 time NBA champion
12 time all-star
5 time mvp and ridiculous rebounding #s.

Yes, Jordan is great, got as many accomplishments in his career, but it should also be noted that he was going up against the likes of Ewing and Miller. It's not like he was going up against Bird, Dr. J and Moses Malone.
And who was Russell going up against? A whopping 8 different teams, where 50% of the best talent in the league was already on his own?

And Kareem didn't have guys like Shaq, Robinson, Olajuwon, Ewing, etc... to deal with. Not to mention he played an extra 6 or 7 years, only to have numbers that were SIMILAR to Jordan's.

No one said that it was strictly by accomplishments. But Jordan's are unquestionably better than Magic's. And there are no intangibles that help your argument that Magic was better than Jordan. Everything great Magic did, Jordan either was still good at doing, or was unquestionably superior. Aside from assist numbers, there was nothing that Magic was unquestionably superior to Jordan at doing that made a major difference on the basketball court. Magic was a great passer, and had great court vision. Yes, well Jordan did too, only he didn't have high caliber teammates to pass to, thus he had to take over games on his own on both ends of the court, which was something that Magic was not even close to Jordan at doing.

And again, while Magic was dealing wtih Bird, Julius, and Moses, he also had Kareem, Worthy, and plenty more to play along with. The balance in talent was even back then, as it was in Jordan's day. There were more stacked teams in Magic's day, and Magic was part of a stacked team himself. Teams were a little thinner and more evenly distributed in Jordan's day, as his team was also thinner than Magic's team, much like other teams he had to deal with. All in all, they had to deal with equally proportional amounts of talent, both on their team, and opposing teams. So the argument of having to play against better or worse players has no ground to it whatsoever.

Both players were among the best of the best we have ever seen. But there is not one argument that you can make for Magic that could put him as a better player than Jordan. There is not one answer for a weakness that Jordan did not have.

[ambchang]

And who was Russell going up against? A whopping 8 different teams, where 50% of the best talent in the league was already on his own?

And Kareem didn't have guys like Shaq, Robinson, Olajuwon, Ewing, etc... to deal with. Not to mention he played an extra 6 or 7 years, only to have numbers that were SIMILAR to Jordan's.

No one said that it was strictly by accomplishments. But Jordan's are unquestionably better than Magic's. And there are no intangibles that help your argument that Magic was better than Jordan. Everything great Magic did, Jordan either was still good at doing, or was unquestionably superior. Aside from assist numbers, there was nothing that Magic was unquestionably superior to Jordan at doing that made a major difference on the basketball court. Magic was a great passer, and had great court vision. Yes, well Jordan did too, only he didn't have high caliber teammates to pass to, thus he had to take over games on his own on both ends of the court, which was something that Magic was not even close to Jordan at doing.

And again, while Magic was dealing wtih Bird, Julius, and Moses, he also had Kareem, Worthy, and plenty more to play along with. The balance in talent was even back then, as it was in Jordan's day. There were more stacked teams in Magic's day, and Magic was part of a stacked team himself. Teams were a little thinner and more evenly distributed in Jordan's day, as his team was also thinner than Magic's team, much like other teams he had to deal with. All in all, they had to deal with equally proportional amounts of talent, both on their team, and opposing teams. So the argument of having to play against better or worse players has no ground to it whatsoever.

Both players were among the best of the best we have ever seen. But there is not one argument that you can make for Magic that could put him as a better player than Jordan. There is not one answer for a weakness that Jordan did not have.

How could you state how Russell and Jabbar's competition, and totally dismiss Jordan's? Kareem didn't go up against Robinson, Shaq and Olajuwon, he went up against Willis Reed, Wes Unseld, Wilt Chamberlain, Hakeem (in the last couple of years in his career, and STILL did great), Elvin Hayes, Bob McAdoo, Bob Lanier, Dave Cowens, Paul Silas, Moses Malone, Artis Gilmore, well, 20 years worth of great centers, and he held his own regardless of when he played them.

As for Russell, that talent pool was already there before he joined, but it won nothing, not until Russell joined, and then they reeled off 8 straight championships, and 11 of 13, that is just incredible.

How was it that Magic winning 5 championships in a markedly superior era of basketball vs. 6 titles by Jordan speaks so clearly about Jordan's accomplishments being greater than those of Magic? Magic went to 9 finals in 12 years, and him losing to Bird's Celtics, Isiah's Pistons and Jordan's Bulls is nothing to scoff at.

Magic was unquestionably the better orchestrator of offense than Jordan, and yet you wrote that off as some kind of non-factor. Magic was also the better rebounder, and later on his career, long-range shooter. Yes, Jordan was by far the better defender, but by balancing all the strengths and weaknesses of both players, it is not nearly as lop-sided as you would suggest.

Just for interest's sake, how do you view today's league? The talent is even more dispersed and even than those of the 90s, but would you put Duncan > Bird, or Duncan > Wilt?

[stretch]

How could you state how Russell and Jabbar's competition, and totally dismiss Jordan's? Kareem didn't go up against Robinson, Shaq and Olajuwon, he went up against Willis Reed, Wes Unseld, Wilt Chamberlain, Hakeem (in the last couple of years in his career, and STILL did great), Elvin Hayes, Bob McAdoo, Bob Lanier, Dave Cowens, Paul Silas, Moses Malone, Artis Gilmore, well, 20 years worth of great centers, and he held his own regardless of when he played them.

Aside from Wilt, gimmie Robinson, Shaq, and Hakeem over all the rest of those guys hands down. And personally, I will take Shaq and Hakeem over Wilt.


As for Russell, that talent pool was already there before he joined, but it won nothing, not until Russell joined, and then they reeled off 8 straight championships, and 11 of 13, that is just incredible.

Against an 8 team league...


How was it that Magic winning 5 championships in a markedly superior era of basketball vs. 6 titles by Jordan speaks so clearly about Jordan's accomplishments being greater than those of Magic? Magic went to 9 finals in 12 years, and him losing to Bird's Celtics, Isiah's Pistons and Jordan's Bulls is nothing to scoff at.

Magic also had a markedly superior pool of talent at his side.


Magic was unquestionably the better orchestrator of offense than Jordan, and yet you wrote that off as some kind of non-factor. Magic was also the better rebounder, and later on his career, long-range shooter. Yes, Jordan was by far the better defender, but by balancing all the strengths and weaknesses of both players, it is not nearly as lop-sided as you would suggest.

I agree that Magic showed a better ability to orchestrate an offense, but again, Magic had offensive players to orchestrate an offense for. Jordan didn't. And you're nuts to say that Magic was a better shooter than Jordan. Jordan wasn't a great long-range shooter early in his career, but he became quite deadly around the time he started winning titles. And of course he would have higher rebound numbers, because he was much bigger. Although being that much bigger, and only averaging 1 more rebound per game for his career isn't that special. For his size and position, Jordan was a very solid rebounder, even averaging 8 RPG one season.


Just for interest's sake, how do you view today's league? The talent is even more dispersed and even than those of the 90s, but would you put Duncan > Bird, or Duncan > Wilt?

I think the league has a very big, but very heavily dispersed pool of talent.

And yes, I will take Duncan over Wilt. IMO, Wilt was somewhat overrated, because he had almost no people his size to deal with. Nowadays, the league is loaded with 6'10 to 7'4 guys. Back then, most of the talest players were like 6'8, 6'9, and they were all quite small and weak compared to centers in recent eras. I bet you that Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, Robinson, etc... could have put up equal or better numbers than Wilt if one of them played in that era, instead of Wilt.

As for Bird, thats a tough one. IMO, they are both very similar players, in terms of not being the most gifted or talented in the game, but having great fundamentals, smarts, and an amazing will to win. But if I was building a team, aside from Jordan, there is no player in NBA history that I would take over Tim Duncan, to build a team around.

[And1Mak]

When it's all set and done, Dwyane Wade will go down in history as a better player and person than Jordan & Kobe.

[stretch]

When it's all set and done, Dwyane Wade will go down in history as a better player and person than Jordan & Kobe.
Lol, we will see. He certainly has had a great start to his career, and I can't say that it isn't a possibility.

[ambchang]

Aside from Wilt, gimmie Robinson, Shaq, and Hakeem over all the rest of those guys hands down. And personally, I will take Shaq and Hakeem over Wilt.

I will just have to disagree with you here. Wilt averaged 50.4 ppg a year, and averaged around 22 rpg for a good part of his career. Oh, and he once led the league in assists as a center, also played 48.5 mpg for the whole season, and once led the league with a 72.7% FG%.


Against an 8 team league...

And the talent was dispersed that way. People love to site the 8 HoF argument with Russell, but Russell made those HoFers outside of Cousy, and maybe Heinsohn. Sam Jones was great defensively, but if it wasn’t for those championships, he has very little chance of making the Hall, same with K.C. Jones, Frank Ramsey.

The league has 30 teams today, I am not going to say that it is tougher to win a championship today than in 1984.



Magic also had a markedly superior pool of talent at his side.

And he won 5 championships.
There was not one team that was equal to talent against the 90s Bulls in the 90s, and yet the 76ers and Celtics were clearly in the same league in terms of talent with the Lakers.


I agree that Magic showed a better ability to orchestrate an offense, but again, Magic had offensive players to orchestrate an offense for. Jordan didn't. And you're nuts to say that Magic was a better shooter than Jordan. Jordan wasn't a great long-range shooter early in his career, but he became quite deadly around the time he started winning titles. And of course he would have higher rebound numbers, because he was much bigger. Although being that much bigger, and only averaging 1 more rebound per game for his career isn't that special. For his size and position, Jordan was a very solid rebounder, even averaging 8 RPG one season.

Magic was 2 inches taller, but Jordan had a much better jump. Magic was the closest of anybody since the Big O to average a triple double for the entire season.
At the end of his career, Magic was a better shooter, especially when considering that the 3 pter was not as big a weapon back then as it is nowadays.


I think the league has a very big, but very heavily dispersed pool of talent.

And yes, I will take Duncan over Wilt. IMO, Wilt was somewhat overrated, because he had almost no people his size to deal with. Nowadays, the league is loaded with 6'10 to 7'4 guys. Back then, most of the talest players were like 6'8, 6'9, and they were all quite small and weak compared to centers in recent eras. I bet you that Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, Robinson, etc... could have put up equal or better numbers than Wilt if one of them played in that era, instead of Wilt.

As for Bird, thats a tough one. IMO, they are both very similar players, in terms of not being the most gifted or talented in the game, but having great fundamentals, smarts, and an amazing will to win. But if I was building a team, aside from Jordan, there is no player in NBA history that I would take over Tim Duncan, to build a team around.

Wilt played against Russell (6’10”), Abdul-Jabbar (7’2”), Thurmond(6’11”), Wes Unseld (6’6” to 6’8”, depend on who you ask) and Willis Reed (6’10”). Height is not an indication of one’s ability to play inside, as Mark Eaton, and that Randy something guy (that guy in the 80’s who was around 7’3”) proved, and yet there were some very talented players who are under 7’0” in today’s NBA (Ben Wallace, Tyson Chandler, Dwight Howard, Elton Brand, Carlos Boozer).

To build a team around, Tim Duncan would be high on my list too, as he has proved that he can win with very different styles of team, but Jordan has not done so. Both of those 3-peat teams had the following things in common.

- Scottie Pippen, or an ultra active defensive SF who can create offense.
- Rugged interior rebounder (Rodman or Grant)
- A center who can shoot (Cartwright, Luc Longley, Bill Wennington), and does not need the ball on offense.
- Shooters (Armstrong, Paxson, Kerr, Hodges)

I am surprised Duncan’s got such high regards, I would start a team with Duncan over Wilt, but I will not say that Duncan > Wilt. Besides, if Wilt were given the coaching and training given to players today, he would be even scarier. He was just as strong as Shaq, but even more athletic and faster. Scary indeed.

[stretch]

I will just have to disagree with you here. Wilt averaged 50.4 ppg a year, and averaged around 22 rpg for a good part of his career. Oh, and he once led the league in assists as a center, also played 48.5 mpg for the whole season, and once led the league with a 72.7% FG%.

Against a bunch of 6'5 guys.



And the talent was dispersed that way. People love to site the 8 HoF argument with Russell, but Russell made those HoFers outside of Cousy, and maybe Heinsohn. Sam Jones was great defensively, but if it wasn’t for those championships, he has very little chance of making the Hall, same with K.C. Jones, Frank Ramsey.

The league has 30 teams today, I am not going to say that it is tougher to win a championship today than in 1984.


It's easy when you have loads of great players at your side, and most of the other teams pretty much sucked.




And he won 5 championships.
There was not one team that was equal to talent against the 90s Bulls in the 90s, and yet the 76ers and Celtics were clearly in the same league in terms of talent with the Lakers.

Are you kidding? The Jazz, Sonics, Suns, Pacers all had very talented teams. In terms of completeness, they were more complete teams. It was just that Michael was so fucking ridiculously good that despite having more talented groups of players, they still could not beat the Bulls.



Magic was 2 inches taller, but Jordan had a much better jump. Magic was the closest of anybody since the Big O to average a triple double for the entire season.

So what if Jordan had a much better jump? If anything, you just pointed out yet another thing that Magic lacked in comparison to Jordan. For his size, Magic was a decent rebounder. Not great, but not bad either. He simply got the job done. But for his size, Jordan was very good rebounder. Not many slim 6'5, 6'6 guys that play his style and on the perimeter are going to average 8 boards a game.



At the end of his career, Magic was a better shooter, especially when considering that the 3 pter was not as big a weapon back then as it is nowadays.

You're fucking ridiculous. You clearly don't know what the fuck you are talking about.


Wilt played against Russell (6’10”), Abdul-Jabbar (7’2”), Thurmond(6’11”), Wes Unseld (6’6” to 6’8”, depend on who you ask) and Willis Reed (6’10”). Height is not an indication of one’s ability to play inside, as Mark Eaton, and that Randy something guy (that guy in the 80’s who was around 7’3”) proved, and yet there were some very talented players who are under 7’0” in today’s NBA (Ben Wallace, Tyson Chandler, Dwight Howard, Elton Brand, Carlos Boozer).

And you are going to tell me that any of those guys are on the same physical level as Howard, Wallace, Chandler, Brand, and Boozer??? Again, you are nuts. Athletically, the NBA has risen so much since those days, its not even funny. Kareem had fuckin noodles for arms. I think even Tony Parker could outmuscle the guy.


To build a team around, Tim Duncan would be high on my list too, as he has proved that he can win with very different styles of team, but Jordan has not done so. Both of those 3-peat teams had the following things in common.

- Scottie Pippen, or an ultra active defensive SF who can create offense.
- Rugged interior rebounder (Rodman or Grant)
- A center who can shoot (Cartwright, Luc Longley, Bill Wennington), and does not need the ball on offense.
- Shooters (Armstrong, Paxson, Kerr, Hodges)


Different players and different styles are two different things. Duncan basically played with the same style of team all his championship years. Different rosters, yea, he had some different players, but the style the played pretty much remained the same. They all won games with fundamentals, rock-hard defense, patience, and smarts.

Jordan had very different rosters to deal with as well, but the teams still pretty much played the same style. Up-tempo offense, with a suffocating, swarming defense.


I am surprised Duncan’s got such high regards, I would start a team with Duncan over Wilt, but I will not say that Duncan > Wilt. Besides, if Wilt were given the coaching and training given to players today, he would be even scarier. He was just as strong as Shaq, but even more athletic and faster. Scary indeed.
Duncan I feel was a better winner and smarter player. Plus he accomplished what he did in a much more competitive and balanced era. I think it's sad that Wilt could only win 2 titles with those loaded teams he had. Not to mention Russell owned his ass. No one has ever owned Tim Duncan.

Gimmie Timmy.

And again, you are insane to say that he was just as strong as Shaq. No way in hell was he as strong as Shaq. He was strong, no doubt, but Shaq would still back him up without too much trouble, as he has with every other player he has ever had to face. Not to mention he weighed around 50 lbs less than Shaq.

[Spawn]

I could give two shits how he treated his teamates, (he's the best player on the team, either deal with him or get the hell out) it was his off the court antics to me that made him a sellout. Thanks for the championships Mike, but fuck off now!!!

[ambchang]

Against a bunch of 6'5 guys.

I have stated before that this was simply not the case, Russell competed with people of similar size and strength. And I continue fail to understand why a person’s height would be of such significance. We are not talking about a foot different, we are talking about a difference of 1 to 2”. 6’10” vs. 7’


It's easy when you have loads of great players at your side, and most of the other teams pretty much sucked.

Are you kidding? The Jazz, Sonics, Suns, Pacers all had very talented teams. In terms of completeness, they were more complete teams. It was just that Michael was so fucking ridiculously good that despite having more talented groups of players, they still could not beat the Bulls.

You are trying to say that Jazz, Sonics, Suns, Pacers of the 90s were very talented, and yet the 76ers, Celtics, Bucks, Rockets, Pistons, Blazers of the 80’s sucked. Sure, go nuts.



So what if Jordan had a much better jump? If anything, you just pointed out yet another thing that Magic lacked in comparison to Jordan. For his size, Magic was a decent rebounder. Not great, but not bad either. He simply got the job done. But for his size, Jordan was very good rebounder. Not many slim 6'5, 6'6 guys that play his style and on the perimeter are going to average 8 boards a game.

Magic was 6’8”, he once averaged close to 10 boards a game for the whole season, and had 7.2 for his career. Jordan averaged 6.2 by being only 2” shorter. Magic, for his size and position, was an astounding rebounder.


[QUOTE=stretch]You're fucking ridiculous. You clearly don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

In 1980, Magic’s rookie year, an average team shot 227 3pters, making 64 for an average of 28.2%. 1985, Jordan’s rookie year, an average team shot 73/257, for an average of 28.4%. 1991, Magic’s final season (not counting the stupid comeback), an average team shot 187/586 for an average of 31.9%, and in Jordan’s final season in 1999 (again, not counting the stupid comeback), an average team shot 223/658 for 33.9%. There is absolutely no question that there was a huge jump in the use of 3pters in the 90s.

In head to head matchups since 1986, Magic shot 13/30 for 43.3 3ptt %, while Jordan shot 4 for 12 for 33%.

In the years where their playing days overlapped, the following are the numbers

Magic Jordan
85 18.9 17.3
86 23.3 16.7
87 20.5 18.2
88 19.6 13.2
89 31.4 27.6
90 38.4 37.6
91 32.0 31.2


And you are going to tell me that any of those guys are on the same physical level as Howard, Wallace, Chandler, Brand, and Boozer??? Again, you are nuts. Athletically, the NBA has risen so much since those days, its not even funny. Kareem had fuckin noodles for arms. I think even Tony Parker could outmuscle the guy.

And yet the same guy held his own against a young Hakeem Olajuwon when he was 35 years old, having similar per 48 minute stats in head to heads wth 25.8 ppg and 9.9 rpb, vs. 27.8 and 15.2 (that includes the years when Jabbar was 40 years old).

He did similar things to Patrick Ewing, only he stood up even better.

Have you seen how big Willis Reed was? Chandler is a skinny dude, and has a similar build to Nate Thurmond. Brand is built like Elgin Baylor, neither Wallace or Howard was bigger than Wilt, and Boozer was like an average Joe back in the day. I haven’t even talked about guys like Maurice Lucas.


Different players and different styles are two different things. Duncan basically played with the same style of team all his championship years. Different rosters, yea, he had some different players, but the style the played pretty much remained the same. They all won games with fundamentals, rock-hard defense, patience, and smarts.

You mean to say that 1999 Spurs was similar in style than 2007 with all the improved offense and a total change in role for Duncan on defense with the departure of David Robinson? You hardly see 4-down anymore, but in 1999, that was basically the only play on offense. The 1999, 2003, and 2005/7 teams were totally different in styles. Yeah, they all played defense, so did every title winning team.


Jordan had very different rosters to deal with as well, but the teams still pretty much played the same style. Up-tempo offense, with a suffocating, swarming defense.

Duncan I feel was a better winner and smarter player. Plus he accomplished what he did in a much more competitive and balanced era. I think it's sad that Wilt could only win 2 titles with those loaded teams he had. Not to mention Russell owned his ass. No one has ever owned Tim Duncan.

Gimmie Timmy.

And again, you are insane to say that he was just as strong as Shaq. No way in hell was he as strong as Shaq. He was strong, no doubt, but Shaq would still back him up without too much trouble, as he has with every other player he has ever had to face. Not to mention he weighed around 50 lbs less than Shaq.

Shaq couldn’t even physically dominate Robinson with a bad back and a 40 year old Kevin Willis in his prime, what makes you think that he could do that to Wilt? Wilt could bench 550 lbs, Shaq does 450.

[stretch]

Dude, I'm not going to waste my time on this shit anymore, especially after seeing you constantly try to ignorantly justify your saying that Magic was a better shooter, which is fucking absurd. I didn't even read that whole post, as you just seem hell bent on discrediting Jordan at every angle possible. Magic was great, but Jordan is the GOAT, and anyone that knows basketball knows it too. End of the story.

[ambchang]

Dude, I'm not going to waste my time on this shit anymore, especially after seeing you constantly try to ignorantly justify your saying that Magic was a better shooter, which is fucking absurd. I didn't even read that whole post, as you just seem hell bent on discrediting Jordan at every angle possible. Magic was great, but Jordan is the GOAT, and anyone that knows basketball knows it too. End of the story.

If you just stated at the first post that there was no room for any debate, then feel free. I am not in the position to say that Magic is the best of all time and then it's end of story, in fact, I acknowledge that Jordan can understandably be one of the best of all time, along with Magic, Bird, Kareem, Wilt and Russell.

It was YOU who ignorantly stated that Kareem had noodles for arms despite the fact that he held his own against Hakeem and Ewing in his late 30's, it was YOU who ignored the fact that the 3 pt shot gained popularity since the early to mid 90's. It was you who didn't look at Magic and Jordan's 3 pt shooting with similar defenses and offenses when they played the same years. Both Jordan and Magic were very good shooters, but the fact remains that in the years they competed together, Magic shot better. It was you who stated Russell went up against a bunch of 6'5" guys when it was a fact that the centers back in the day were mostly in the 6'10" range. You ignored Wilt's recorded bench press of 550lbs and Shaq's bench press of 450lbs. And yet I was the ignorant one?

Me saying that Magic was the best of all-time is not discrediting Jordan. I cannot understand how saying Jordan was not a great teammate has anything to do with him winning 6 titles, bunch of scoring titles, MVPs, final MVPs etc .... Because if I was given an opportunity to play on any teams in the past, Jordan's teams would not be my first choice.

In fact, it was you who ignored the history of the game and discredited the accomplishments of Russell, Wilt, Jabbar and Magic. If you are able to bring in any objective analysis of why Jordan's strengths are that much important than Magic's, feel free, because unlike you, I am open for debates.

[stretch]

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b4/vsf3000/lob.jpgX 6

When it's all said and done, thats what matters most.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b4/vsf3000/mvp.jpgX 5

That helps too.

Duces.

[ambchang]

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b4/vsf3000/lob.jpgX 6

When it's all said and done, thats what matters most.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b4/vsf3000/mvp.jpgX 5

That helps too.

Duces.

I heard you the first 5 times, but then Russell got 11 championships, and 5 MVPs. You can somehow dismiss Russell's accomplishments by stating that the era in which he had these accomplishments were different from those of Jordan, and yet you can't do the same between Jordan and Magic.