Phoenix Suns Season Preview - non-ratings and popularity thread

[Findog]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/specials/preview/2007/enemy.lines/suns.html

An opposing team's scout sizes up the Suns

This whole thing with Shawn Marion -- who before training camp was basically asking to be traded -- has always been an issue. And in the past they've always been able to put it behind them. But I don't know if they can manage it the entire year by keeping things status quo. It wouldn't surprise me if the mood is growing to trade him, though Marion's agent is Dan Fegan and a lot of teams won't want to deal with him because he's so difficult ...

Around the league, Marion is known as a great rebounder, but there are some people who consider a lot of his rebounds as 'fluff' rebounds -- for instance, they say he'll get every free throw rebound to pad his stats. They say he doesn't get the tough rebounds in crunch time. He's also somebody who disappears for stretches of games. He's an athletic guy but not a skilled player. He has that inconsistent shot that can go in for stretches and then he can go cold for just as long a time. He's not a great post-up player and it's hard to run things for him, which he apparently takes as a slight, but his skill level doesn't enable him to finish those kinds of plays. ...

He feels underappreciated, but I don't think he -- like a lot of us -- realizes the pluses and minuses of his own game. As a defender he's so-so; he can overplay and create steals, but he isn't a tenacious defender. At times he was excellent defensively in the playoffs against San Antonio, but his lack of consistency is tied around his effort and moodiness -- am I being respected or not, am I important or not. This has always been under the surface in Phoenix, but the team has always put it away as Shawn being Shawn. Is enough now enough? We'll see ...

The one trade that makes sense to me would be to send him to the Jazz for Andrei Kirilenko, who sounds like he wants out of Utah. Kirilenko would play power forward for Phoenix and Marion would be the small forward for Utah, which would make them both happy. Marion doesn't like playing the 4, but he doesn't realize that he gets to take slower defenders off the dribble and that he would have a much harder time playing against the LeBrons and Carmelos every night. But I would think if that trade was going to happen, it would have been done already ...

A bigger unresolved question for the Suns is whether they can win a championship without being an excellent defensive team. I love their style of play, but I just don't think it's built for the playoffs. That's not a judgment call: I just haven't seen anybody win a title the way they're trying to win it. Until I see them do it, I won't believe it can be done ...

Steve Nash will turn 34 by the All-Star break, and they've got to find a way to limit his minutes. Any game in which they're up by a lot or down by a lot, they've got to shut him down. Every year they say they're going to do it but they just can't bring themselves to, mainly because they've had so little confidence in his backups. Marcus Banks has been a huge disappointment in that role ...

Nash was as good last year as he's ever been. His basketball IQ is off the charts, as is his unselfishness and his willingness to get others involved. His personality, along with Mike D'Antoni's, dominates and sets the tone for the rest of that team. When the star is so unselfish, it becomes easy for the other guys to be unselfish: He gives me the ball, I give him the ball ...

The question is, How do you defend him? Some teams would want him to score: Play him one-on-one and never double him, make him score 50 if he can. The alternative is to collapse on him when he penetrates, which leaves their shooters open and naturally he's able to find them for the wide-open threes that just kill you ...

San Antonio took them out of their style in the playoffs by playing tough and physical against them. The physical play really got to them. Then also the one thing San Antonio does better than anybody is help on defense. They kept Nash out of the paint, and every time he saw an opening, one of the Spurs was there to fill it up. The hole opened up and closed right away before he could get through it ...

Because of Nash's age, this is a team that is running out of time. Marion's demands have created another issue. They're starting to feel pressure that it may never happen for them. In some ways, they got a bad pull in having to face San Antonio so early in the playoffs, and then with the suspension to Amaré Stoudemire I think everybody felt cheated that we didn't get to see the two best teams fight it out on the court ...

The most interesting thing about Grant Hill coming to Phoenix is how he will fit into that offense. Usually they put four guys on the perimeter and one big guy inside. Now they're adding a mid-range shooter -- Hill is not a deep shooter from the three-point line. Now they're going to have two guys inside that line. They could look at it as an advantage -- maybe it presents options that they haven't been able to do in the past. They could put Grant down on the block and Stoudemire at the top of the key, which would present you with the dilemma of having to leave Stoudemire to double Grant in the post; or if you double off one of their perimeter guys, then Grant is a good enough passer to find the open man. Coaches get bored and they're always looking to put in new stuff, so this could be a refreshing deal for D'Antoni ...

I'm prepared to see Grant play different positions. If Boris Diaw can play the high post in that offense, then maybe they'll use Grant in new ways to create mismatches. In certain situations, he could even be used as a backup point guard to bring the ball up. ...

This is a good move for Grant because D'Antoni is a good coach for veteran players. He's not the type who would push Nash or Grant to play if they're hurt. He'll take care of them in practice, and when they practice it won't go long. Phoenix has done a good job in recent years of not suffering a great volume of injuries, and it has a lot to do with the way they play and practice ...

If Stoudemire is ever going to become an MVP candidate, his next step is to become a help defender like Tim Duncan is for San Antonio. Stoudemire has the size and athleticism to be active defensively and help cover the entire court, and it's obvious that he doesn't understand the game as well as Duncan does. I also wonder if he realizes how valuable it could be for him if he became an elite defender. He's still a young guy who looks like he's caught up in his stats, and he doesn't have the unselfishness and intelligence for the game that Duncan has. But then very few big guys do have that ...

One of Stoudemire's issues on defense is that he's always trying to hit the home run. He tries to block every shot, he tries to be intimidating. He needs to learn good solid position defensively: His feet are set, his hands are up and he's not trying to hit the ball out of the park every time. If he was solid, he would limit his fouls, be more consistent and be on the floor more. Every once in a while he'll make the right defensive play, but he comes through for them inconsistently. There are times he blows you away with his intensity, his desire, his work ethic; then there are those other times when he blows you away the other way with his lack of intensity and desire. He's hot and cold and it's hard to win at the highest level when one of your key guys is that way ...

I think everyone feels Stoudemire has turned the corner on his recovery from microfracture knee surgery two years ago. He was recovering from a minor scope on his other knee in preseason, but the way he played last year it looked as if he's recovered from his major physical issue ...

Diaw got heavy last season but he was looking much better and more active in preseason this year. He tends to defer, but the Suns need him to be more assertive and play with more energy, the way he did two years ago when he was the Most Improved Player. ...

Another guy who needs to come up big is Leandro Barbosa, who was a big disappointment in the playoffs against San Antonio after winning the league's Sixth Man Award during the season. He's a truly aggressive player with one of the quickest first steps in the league, but he was another guy who was taken out of his style by the Spurs.

[Findog]

I thought the Suns fans wanted a serious discussion of basketball.

I'll go first: They'll win a shitload of regular season games, they'll score a lot of points, and if Dallas beats San Antonio before they run into them, then the Suns would become the favorite to win a title. They'd beat any team in the East if they could get that far. D'Antoni doesnt seem to have learned his lesson about trusting his bench and limiting his biggest contributors minutes.

[monosylab1k]

I thought the Suns fans wanted a serious discussion of basketball.
evidently not. with a few exceptions, Suns fans mimic their team - alot of talk and a lot of "action", but no depth or substance.

[monosylab1k]

IMO, this is the last stand for the Suns. If they don't get it done this year, I don't think they'll ever get it done. Nash is right at the "too old" threshold, Marion is just going to whine even more, and Amare's ego will continue to puff up.

At the same time, this is the last stand for this version of the Mavericks too. If they don't get it done, Donnie & Cuban will have no choice but to dismantle the team, or they'll have an intense fan mutiny on their hands.

[JMarkJohns]

His take on Marion was pretty dead on. I don't think Marion is a "fluff" rebounder. You don't average 11 rebounds a game being a fluff rebounder. And he was come up with some HUGE rebounds late in games, including the offensive rebound that saved the Suns vs. the Lakers in game six of the 2006 first round. He's had several more, just not of better significance.

However, he isn't a pure rebounder. He's an athletic rebounder. Instead of using force and positioning, he uses his athleticism to fly-in, out-jump or out-second-jump to net his rebounds. He'll always get his, but it is a flawed rebounding style. It's great to have, but not as your best rebounder.

I too think this is their "last stand."

I just can't see Sarver biting the bullet and paying this team again if they, yet again, fail to win it all. I also don't count on Nash always playing at this level. I'll give him this year, but Next year is pushing things. Especially if he ends up setting a new career high in minutes played.

I like the Suns chances vs. anybody not named San Antonio. I've seen that play too often to feel confident. We'll have to see, but without Thomas it'll be VERY tough to defeat the Spurs in seven games.

[Findog]

IMO, this is the last stand for the Suns. If they don't get it done this year, I don't think they'll ever get it done. Nash is right at the "too old" threshold, Marion is just going to whine even more, and Amare's ego will continue to puff up.

At the same time, this is the last stand for this version of the Mavericks too. If they don't get it done, Donnie & Cuban will have no choice but to dismantle the team, or they'll have an intense fan mutiny on their hands.

Both teams are at a crossroads and have their own playoff demons to confront. The Suns have yet to prove that run-n-gun like they do can win a title. They beat teams by increasing the # of possessions and nobody is more offensively efficient than the Suns. And yet the Spurs just physically own them, on the boards, in the paint, everywhere. San Antonio is the classic half-court team that can execute on both ends of the floor. So many teams are trying to mimic Phoenix's approach, but it's been fool's gold up to this point. D'Antoni said he's playing on playing Marion 38 mpg, Bell and Nash 33, and Amare and Hill 30. I can guarantee you they won't win a title doing that. No starter should be above 35 mpg, and they always say they'll limit Nash's minutes, but they never do.

Dallas, on the other hand, has a big problem between their collective ears and a slightly smaller one when it comes to interior scoring. They addressed perimeter defense with the addition of Trenton Hassell, which has been just as big an achilles' heel in the postseason as their other issues and which never gets mentioned, it's all put on Dirk's shoulders. I actually think the Mavs will get off to a slow start, especially with Dampier out. He's overpaid, he has hands of stone, but he greatly improves their interior d when he's in there and Diop can't play over 30 mpg. I have mixed feelings about a possible Kobe trade: I think Josh Howard is on the upswing and just continues to get better and better, and the Mavs just need to be patient with the core they have. On the other hand, with Kobe and Dirk together, you'd have two of the top five players in the league, and given Kobe's desire to play for a contender and his no-trade clause, he won't come to Dallas to play for a gutted roster. There'd be enough left for this team to win a title. But chemistry is always a concern: Carmelo and Iverson work better as a fantasy team than a real one. Dirk would gladly let Kobe be "The Man," but would it work on the court?

I think mono is right: One of these teams for sure won't win a title, and if they both fail, there's going to be major changes.

[Findog]

I like the Suns chances vs. anybody not named San Antonio. I've seen that play too often to feel confident. We'll have to see, but without Thomas it'll be VERY tough to defeat the Spurs in seven games.

I agree. I'd take Phoenix right now over Dallas in a seven-game series. Nash is just always on a mission against us. But I don't trust D'Antoni's judgment. He would do well to get Skinner some regular burn so they can at least get some on-court chemistry going. As it is, he won't take his warmups off all year long, and halfway through Game One against San Antonio or Utah, Mustache Man will realize he has to account for Duncan/Boozer and bring in a quality defensive big. At that point their offense will suffer somewhat.

[JMarkJohns]

I think mono is right: One of these teams for sure won't win a title, and if they both fail, there's going to be major changes.

Is there any shame in combining forces? :spin That may just do it!!!

[Findog]

Is there any shame in combining forces? :spin That may just do it!!!

Not at all, but there sure is some bad blood between the two franchises dating back to the Kidd/Finley trade.

[JMarkJohns]

I hated that trade. HATED, HATED, HATED, HATED that trade!!!

[Findog]

I hated that trade. HATED, HATED, HATED, HATED that trade!!!

Really? So did I. HATED HATED HATED it so much that it was the closest I ever came to throwing in the towel on being a Mavs fan. When a used car salesman is trading away the best young PG in the game because some Phil Jackzen wannabe assclown didn't know what he was doing, I just threw up my hands and said "This is hopeless!"

[monosylab1k]

Really? So did I. HATED HATED HATED it so much that it was the closest I ever came to throwing in the towel on being a Mavs fan. When a used car salesman is trading away the best young PG in the game because some Phil Jackzen wannabe assclown didn't know what he was doing, I just threw up my hands and said "This is hopeless!"
I loved the trade when it happened. I was already a big Finley fan from what I saw of him in his rookie year. And from what I saw, Kidd was creating nothing but Toni Braxton drama and a lot of bricked shots in Dallas. Despite the huge talent we gave up, dropping Kidd for Finley laid the foundation for what the Mavericks have become, IMO.

From how I saw things, the "Three J's" had already proven to me that they weren't going to be doing a whole lot of winning, no matter how long we kept them. Might as well start the fire sale right then.

Cleamons was a moron, no doubt, but Finley was obviously a much better fit for the Don Nelson takeover that was about to take place.

[JMarkJohns]

What did you turn Cassell into? The trade was Finley/Cassell/Green/filler for Kidd/filler. I just don't remember where Cassell went afterwards? Was it to Jersey for Bradley?

[monosylab1k]

What did you turn Cassell into? The trade was Finley/Cassell/Green/filler for Kidd/filler. I just don't remember where Cassell went afterwards? Was it to Jersey for Bradley?
Yeah I believe it was Cassell/Chris Gatling/filler for Bradley/Robert Pack/filler.

I'll admit, the first couple years of "Don Nelson - GM" it seemed like he was the most idiotic mad scientist ever.....but the Finley trade made me a believer and kept me hopeful.

There was some bad luck too......we basically lost Mashburn for nothing since Sasha Danilovic decided to go back to Europe....if he would have stuck around, he would have been a huge part of the future Nellie Ball regime with Fin/Dirk/Nash.

[JMarkJohns]

Bradley was never what his pick selection said he should be, but he was never a slouch. At least not until late in his career. I'm not saying I'd want him as my starting center, but he was a quality big that blocked a ton of shots, and grabbed a fair amount of rebounds.

Will agree on the Mashburn deal. That one hurt. Mash went on to be a stud for two teams. He would have been a quality SF for Nellie Ball... Although, I guess Dirk was originally a SF prospect...

[monosylab1k]

Will agree on the Mashburn deal. That one hurt. Mash went on to be a stud for two teams. He would have been a quality SF for Nellie Ball... Although, I guess Dirk was originally a SF prospect...
Yeah that one really hurt. I always like Mashburn the best out of the "Three J's". Mashburn's injury history was a concern, but he was a great talent and could have really been a big part of the new-look Mavericks.

And even with the trade going down, Danilovic was a terrific shooter and perfect for Nellie Ball as well. I still don't know the full story of why he went back to Europe...although back in those days, his Euro team might have been better than the Mavs :lol

[JMarkJohns]

Maybe he saw all the young prospects and decided he wouldn't get the play he wanted? Suns are in a similar position with Milos Vujanic. They acquired him from New York in the Marbury trade, but in the three years they've owned his rights, he has yet to even express an interest. Stupid really, considering he's exactly what the Suns need as a backup PG: score-first, but good passing, great 3-point shot and pretty athletic.

[Walter Craparita]

edit: NVM, didn't realize I was in this thread. Sorry

[JMarkJohns]

I'm confused.

Where are the 07-08 ratings predictions?

This is the non-ratings thread... 'tis expressed as such in te Title, ya know ya know...

[Findog]

I loved the trade when it happened. I was already a big Finley fan from what I saw of him in his rookie year. And from what I saw, Kidd was creating nothing but Toni Braxton drama and a lot of bricked shots in Dallas. Despite the huge talent we gave up, dropping Kidd for Finley laid the foundation for what the Mavericks have become, IMO.

From how I saw things, the "Three J's" had already proven to me that they weren't going to be doing a whole lot of winning, no matter how long we kept them. Might as well start the fire sale right then.

Cleamons was a moron, no doubt, but Finley was obviously a much better fit for the Don Nelson takeover that was about to take place.

Finley salvaged that trade, and the Three J's would've never lived up to the hype, considering Jackson was never the same after his ankle injury, while Mashburn was injury-prone himself throughout his career. But I think Kidd was special and his career has borne that out. Outside shooting has never been his specialty but he can control a game and have an impact without scoring. As it was, I doubt we would've ever been in a position to draft Dirk had Kidd stayed, the team wouldn't have been fucking terrible enough to be a perennial lottery team. If anything, I feel like Finley's prime was wasted carrying a shit team for so long. His best year in the pros was our first trip to the playoffs when we beat the Jazz. Not long after, Dirk emerged as the most talented of the Big Three.

Don Nelson would've never traded Kidd if he gotten the job two months earlier.

[Findog]

I'm confused.

Where are the 07-08 ratings predictions?


http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80047

troll thread here

[monosylab1k]

Don Nelson would've never traded Kidd if he gotten the job two months earlier.
I dunno. Maybe not, but Kidd's horrendous shooting would never have fit in with Nellie Ball either.

And for whatever reason, I thought Nellie had a hand in the Kidd trade? I know he wasn't officially hired, but I thought I remembered something about him consulting for the Mavs or somesuch already? My memory of the dark days is getting fuzzy.

[Findog]

I dunno. Maybe not, but Kidd's horrendous shooting would never have fit in with Nellie Ball either.

And for whatever reason, I thought Nellie had a hand in the Kidd trade? I know he wasn't officially hired, but I thought I remembered something about him consulting for the Mavs or somesuch already? My memory of the dark days is getting fuzzy.

I've just never seen Kidd's shooting as that much of a detriment. Most coaches and teams would love to have him. I believe the trade went down around Christmas 96 and Nellie was hired on two months later.

[RonMexico]

Barbosa also had elbow surgery this year to correct a problem that plagued him in the playoffs... being a rhythm player, that injury probably took him as much out of the SA series as the Spurs' defense did.

For being such an "informed" scout, that's a key fact he missed. He also failed to realize that the Suns have the ability to win with this style if D'Antoni uses more players in the playoffs. They could have won game 5 if more than 6 players ever stepped foot on the court and D'Antoni didn't run Nash, Bell, and Marion ragged. Then again, they did lose Kurt Thomas this year, which has to be a worse trade than the Kidd/Finley one.

[monosylab1k]

I've just never seen Kidd's shooting as that much of a detriment. Most coaches and teams would love to have him. I believe the trade went down around Christmas 96 and Nellie was hired on two months later.
Yeah you're right, I don't know why but I thought Nellie orchestrated that deal. He seemed so hell-bent on dumping off the Three J's and I remember him getting the "mad scientist" label around Dallas until his vision finally came into focus.

[Findog]

Yeah you're right, I don't know why but I thought Nellie orchestrated that deal. He seemed so hell-bent on dumping off the Three J's and I remember him getting the "mad scientist" label around Dallas until his vision finally came into focus.

My understanding is that sometime shortly after he arrived, the Mavs got beaten down pretty badly at home to San Antonio, and he threw up his hands and said "That's it! Enough with this shit!" The next day, the entire starting five went to New Jersey.

[Findog]

Then again, they did lose Kurt Thomas this year, which has to be a worse trade than the Kidd/Finley one.

Why do Suns fans judge this trade so harshly? Is it because Kidd was shipped out due to his being radioactive after beating up his wife?

[phx_13]

the biggest lesson the suns learned was to get the rest of the bench involved because you never know what might happend a starter might get hurt or amare's dumbass might forget he can't leave the close proximity of the bench(has anyone found out where the bench ends) and get himself suspened.By bringing steve kerr in as their GM that gives D'antoni the time to develop the rest of his bench and he doesn't have to worry about dealing with front office stuff

[da_suns_fan__]

LMAO at FinDog calling the Spurs and Mavs 1a and 1b.

He's also an idiot for saying that no starter should play more than 35 minutes a game...after all, thats the Spurs blueprint and it worked for the Mavs too....

OH WAIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'd be much more worried about the Mavs just making it out of the first round if I were you, FinDog.

[Findog]

LMAO at FinDog calling the Spurs and Mavs 1a and 1b.

He's also an idiot for saying that no starter should play more than 35 minutes a game...after all, thats the Spurs blueprint and it worked for the Mavs too....

OH WAIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'd be much more worried about the Mavs just making it out of the first round if I were you, FinDog.

I'm sorry, I think you might be lost and in need of directions. Troll thread here:

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80047


Serious discussion here.

[da_suns_fan__]

I'm sorry, I think you might be lost and in need of directions. Troll thread here:

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80047


Serious discussion here.


Is that what you call it? It looks like the same unoriginal crap you've been saying all summer. :lol

[JMarkJohns]

I'd agree with Ron, as well... Failing to mention offseason surgery on a key shooter's shooting elbow is a pretty glaring oversight. Whether or not it had a huge effect on his offense vs. the Spurs, it certainly had an effect. To just completely fail to mention it was pretty piss poor.

[Findog]

I'd agree with Ron, as well... Failing to mention offseason surgery on a key shooter's shooting elbow is a pretty glaring oversight. Whether or not it had a huge effect on his offense vs. the Spurs, it certainly had an effect. To just completely fail to mention it was pretty piss poor.

Peripheral to the discussion at hand, why did you hate the Kidd for Finley swap so much? I think Kidd has by far had the better career, although at his peak Finley was an All Star by the skin of his teeth.

[JMarkJohns]

Finley was my second-favorite player on the Suns behind Kevin Johnson. So, just trading him was something I hated. On top of that, I thought we overpaid for Kidd, who had yet to win anything, or even lead a team to the playoffs at the time. He never lived up to billing with the Suns. Despite his teams winning 50-games year in, year out, he never led a Suns team to a playoff series win. In fact, the only series the Suns won in Kidd's tenure was with him injured and with a fresh out of retirement KJ leading the squad in 2000.

But beyond all that, I think it disheartened me as it signaled that the Suns saw the end of KJ's career. They now had that "real" replacement for him. Not a wet-behind-the-ears youngin' like Nash, or a capable but oft-disgruntled Cassell, but a real talent. I hated to think that KJ would be on his way out. I'm telling you, KJ was IT for me. When you haven't a Title you really cling to the quality players that have passed through your team to justify all the time and energy spent to cheer for them. I'd watched KJ since his rookie season and as a 14/15 year old, I just hated to think I was watching his final games.

That, coupled with the actual basketball reasons were more than enough for me to hate the trade. They were stripping my Suns identity in one fell swoop. Ousting my past and present (KJ) and my future (Finley)...

[monosylab1k]

I don't think Jason Kidd was revered like his is now until he got to New Jersey, anyways.

I seem to remember public opinion being that he was a very smart player who couldn't shoot for shit and had off-court issues. Once he got to New Jersey, that's when he got the superstar status.

During his time in Dallas the locals considered him Green-Eyed Jesus. I liked having him, but I always thought he was overrated during his time here.

[JMarkJohns]

I don't think Jason Kidd was revered like his is now until he got to New Jersey, anyways.

I seem to remember public opinion being that he was a very smart player who couldn't shoot for shit and had off-court issues. Once he got to New Jersey, that's when he got the superstar status.

During his time in Dallas the locals considered him Green-Eyed Jesus. I liked having him, but I always thought he was overrated during his time here.

You're 100% right. He was never considered a top-10 player until he turned Jersey around. And even that wasn't entirely him as he joined a team that was getting a healthy Kenyon Martin and Kerry Kittles back from injury from the year prior and had added Jefferson and Collins via the draft. It was like they received four starters and a good sub in one offseason. Kidd was the catalyst, but by no means the only reason.

And before anyone turns the same logic around on the 04-05 Suns and Nash, I've already argued that point. :)

[Reggie Miller]

I hated to think that KJ would be on his way out. I'm telling you, KJ was IT for me. When you haven't a Title you really cling to the quality players that have passed through your team to justify all the time and energy spent to cheer for them. I'd watched KJ since his rookie season and as a 14/15 year old, I just hated to think I was watching his final games.

That, coupled with the actual basketball reasons were more than enough for me to hate the trade. They were stripping my Suns identity in one fell swoop. Ousting my past and present (KJ) and my future (Finley)...

I certainly understand how you feel. Reggie was the only thing that made the near-success tolerable. Losing ALL of your good players in less than two seasons is really unbearable. (Statistically, O'Neal is now just a little above average. How much of that is wanting out of Indy I couldn't say.)

[RonMexico]

Why do Suns fans judge this trade so harshly? Is it because Kidd was shipped out due to his being radioactive after beating up his wife?

I loved the trade - Finley wasn't a consistent shooter at the time and Kidd came in and dominated the Grizzlies in his first game as a Sun. I was angrier that Colangelo had morals and liked to keep character guys so he jettisoned Kidd for Marbury (this was pre Starbury's intern sex and insane period).

I was just referencing how you and mono have gone back and forth on this Kidd trade and the dismantling of the three J's, etc.

I judge the Kurt Thomas trade worse, but that's more of Sarver being cheap than having anything to do with character. At least Colangelo got an All-Star PG for Kidd and not a trade exception.

[Jeremy]

Did anyone notice that the Suns were the only team to have 3 players receive votes for "Who is the toughest player in the NBA?" in the NBA.com GM survey? ;-)

http://www.nba.com/preview2007/gmsurvey_misc.html

[JMarkJohns]

Obviously they don't mean mentally tough...

[OldDirtMcGirt]

I think that the Suns should be the favorite for the number one seed. The Shawn Marion trade demands is an overblown issue. It's not as if Shawn's bitching is a new thing, we've been here before with him, and it just seems like one of those problems that the media overhypes constantly, only for it to have no bearing on the season. I'd be shocked if we didn't win sixty games this season, because our only key loss was a guy who really didn't have an impact during the regular season. Really the only thing that's going to derail our season is a serious injury to Steve Nash.

Playoffs are an entirely different story. I think that we have a pretty favorable matchup with Dallas (because they can't exploit our biggest weakness), but we match up like shit with San Antonio (something new and different eh?). So I think that the regular season will be crucial if we can somehow hope for Dallas to knock SA out before the conference finals. Utah, Denver, and Houston are quality clubs, but I don't see either posing much of a threat to any of the big three.

Grant Hill was a really big addition, especially after losing Kurt. Not only is he a great lockerroom guy, but he managed to put together a decent season last year, and if he can manage 65 games this year, I'll be happy. His passing is going to help alot in the half court, and his ability to get to the free throw line is a skill that this team, outside of Amare, is totally lacking. Not to thrilled about him expanding his shooting range, we've got shooting up the yin yang as it is.

Marcus Banks is another guy who could contribute this year. D'Antoni absolutely fucked him last year by refusing to give him any consistent time and really screwing with his development. He's been getting alot of minutes at the two thus far, and it looks like we're just going to abandon him as the point guard/floor general. Personally I really like this decision. Grant Hill and Boris Diaw give us enough distributors to keep the flow up while Nash is out, and we can take advantage of Bank's slashing ability as well as his defense. The guy can definitely contribute.

I'm not expecting Marks to play much. He'll probably this year's Pat Burke, and I expect to see Brian Skinner getting most of the minutes as our backup big man. Skinner ain't much, but as long as he gets the most out of his three fouls, he's done his job.

[OldDirtMcGirt]

Obviously they don't mean mentally tough...

I think that Steve, Amare, and Raja are all mentally tough. The only mentally soft guys that we have are Diaw and Trix.

[JMarkJohns]

I don't think anyone but Steve is tough. Still even he lost his cool and responded hothdeadedly after Horry's foul. Amare whined, Bell whined... Those who are mentally tough don't allow others to dictate. They dictate. Physically each can, but other than Steve, I wouldn't say anyone of the three are mentally tough. Not to the extent where they'd deserve mention in a vote of the mentally toughest players.

[DOMINATOR]

I think that Steve, Amare, and Raja are all mentally tough. The only mentally soft guys that we have are Diaw and Trix.

what was that kobe clothesline in 06? is that mentally tough?

[OldDirtMcGirt]

I don't think anyone but Steve is tough. Still even he lost his cool and responded hothdeadedly after Horry's foul. Amare whined, Bell whined... Those who are mentally tough don't allow others to dictate. They dictate. Physically each can, but other than Steve, I wouldn't say anyone of the three are mentally tough. Not to the extent where they'd deserve mention in a vote of the mentally toughest players.

I think that we have different definitions of being "mentally tough". IMO it means having winning as your first priority, and being somebody who doesn't back down from a challenge or wilt under pressure. Bill Laimbeer, widely considered one of the toughest NBA players ever, whined constantly.

[OldDirtMcGirt]

what was that kobe clothesline in 06? is that mentally tough?

In the words of Raja himself, he "ain't nobodies ho".

[RonMexico]

I think that we have different definitions of being "mentally tough". IMO it means having winning as your first priority, and being somebody who doesn't back down from a challenge or wilt under pressure. Bill Laimbeer, widely considered one of the toughest NBA players ever, whined constantly.

You're on the money with Laimbeer.

[RonMexico]

what was that kobe clothesline in 06? is that mentally tough?

Well, I would still argue that Raja is still more mentally tough than Kobe (Mr. "It was Adultry, not Rape... why is everyone in Philly booing me during the All-Star game? Trade Me, Don't Trade me, Trade Shaq, Trade for Jason Kidd, why do you hate me Dr. Buss?")

[monosylab1k]

Being a Mavs fan, I really don't see mental toughness displayed all too often. But I'd say Steve & Raja are the only two mentally tough guys I see on the Suns. Perhaps Grant Hill also brings some mental toughness to the fold as well as veteran savvy.

Seeing how there's the word "mental" in mentally tough, meaning some sort of brain function, Amare is out of the discussion.

[OldDirtMcGirt]

Being a Mavs fan, I really don't see mental toughness displayed all too often. But I'd say Steve & Raja are the only two mentally tough guys I see on the Suns. Perhaps Grant Hill also brings some mental toughness to the fold as well as veteran savvy.

Seeing how there's the word "mental" in mentally tough, meaning some sort of brain function, Amare is out of the discussion.

Amare strikes me as one of those guys who's ridiculously sized ego won't tolerate him doing bad. Call it mentally tough or whatever, but he does show up when it counts.*

*Except for when he can't show up because he's a dumb motherfucker. But you take the good with the bad.

[monosylab1k]

Amare strikes me as one of those guys who's ridiculously sized ego won't tolerate him doing bad. Call it mentally tough or whatever, but he does show up when it counts.*

*Except for when he can't show up because he's a dumb motherfucker. But you take the good with the bad.
To his credit, Amare is definitely a guy that will never ever back down from anybody. While Dirk has shown that if you push him around enough, he'll tuck his tail between his legs and do his best to hide his vagina, Amare is a guy that will push back and push harder. Sometimes that's to the detriment of the team, and sometimes it works out perfectly. But at least he pushes back.

[Trainwreck2100]

LMAO at FinDog calling the Spurs and Mavs 1a and 1b.

He's also an idiot for saying that no starter should play more than 35 minutes a game...after all, thats the Spurs blueprint and it worked for the Mavs too....

OH WAIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'd be much more worried about the Mavs just making it out of the first round if I were you, FinDog.

Nash shouldn't play more than 35 minutes, and neither should Hill, (if he starts, i don't follow, so I don't know) Keeping starters minutes orks for the Spurs cause the bench keeps the game from getting out of hand. Same cannot be said for D'Antoni's system

[Shred]

I'm not making any predictions until I find out where refs are making their investments. You know, sort of like "E.F. Hutton says...."

[Johnny RIngo]

I'm not making any predictions until I find out where refs are making their investments. You know, sort of like "E.F. Hutton says...."

http://www.cryharderfaggot.com./