http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/bas...ines/suns.html
An opposing team's scout sizes up the Suns
This whole thing with Shawn Marion -- who before training camp was basically asking to be traded -- has always been an issue. And in the past they've always been able to put it behind them. But I don't know if they can manage it the entire year by keeping things status quo. It wouldn't surprise me if the mood is growing to trade him, though Marion's agent is Dan Fegan and a lot of teams won't want to deal with him because he's so difficult ...
Around the league, Marion is known as a great rebounder, but there are some people who consider a lot of his rebounds as 'fluff' rebounds -- for instance, they say he'll get every free throw rebound to pad his stats. They say he doesn't get the tough rebounds in crunch time. He's also somebody who disappears for stretches of games. He's an athletic guy but not a skilled player. He has that inconsistent shot that can go in for stretches and then he can go cold for just as long a time. He's not a great post-up player and it's hard to run things for him, which he apparently takes as a slight, but his skill level doesn't enable him to finish those kinds of plays. ...
He feels underappreciated, but I don't think he -- like a lot of us -- realizes the pluses and minuses of his own game. As a defender he's so-so; he can overplay and create steals, but he isn't a tenacious defender. At times he was excellent defensively in the playoffs against San Antonio, but his lack of consistency is tied around his effort and moodiness -- am I being respected or not, am I important or not. This has always been under the surface in Phoenix, but the team has always put it away as Shawn being Shawn. Is enough now enough? We'll see ...
The one trade that makes sense to me would be to send him to the Jazz for Andrei Kirilenko, who sounds like he wants out of Utah. Kirilenko would play power forward for Phoenix and Marion would be the small forward for Utah, which would make them both happy. Marion doesn't like playing the 4, but he doesn't realize that he gets to take slower defenders off the dribble and that he would have a much harder time playing against the LeBrons and Carmelos every night. But I would think if that trade was going to happen, it would have been done already ...
A bigger unresolved question for the Suns is whether they can win a championship without being an excellent defensive team. I love their style of play, but I just don't think it's built for the playoffs. That's not a judgment call: I just haven't seen anybody win a le the way they're trying to win it. Until I see them do it, I won't believe it can be done ...
Steve Nash will turn 34 by the All-Star break, and they've got to find a way to limit his minutes. Any game in which they're up by a lot or down by a lot, they've got to shut him down. Every year they say they're going to do it but they just can't bring themselves to, mainly because they've had so little confidence in his backups. Marcus Banks has been a huge disappointment in that role ...
Nash was as good last year as he's ever been. His basketball IQ is off the charts, as is his unselfishness and his willingness to get others involved. His personality, along with Mike D'Antoni's, dominates and sets the tone for the rest of that team. When the star is so unselfish, it becomes easy for the other guys to be unselfish: He gives me the ball, I give him the ball ...
The question is, How do you defend him? Some teams would want him to score: Play him one-on-one and never double him, make him score 50 if he can. The alternative is to collapse on him when he penetrates, which leaves their shooters open and naturally he's able to find them for the wide-open threes that just kill you ...
San Antonio took them out of their style in the playoffs by playing tough and physical against them. The physical play really got to them. Then also the one thing San Antonio does better than anybody is help on defense. They kept Nash out of the paint, and every time he saw an opening, one of the Spurs was there to fill it up. The hole opened up and closed right away before he could get through it ...
Because of Nash's age, this is a team that is running out of time. Marion's demands have created another issue. They're starting to feel pressure that it may never happen for them. In some ways, they got a bad pull in having to face San Antonio so early in the playoffs, and then with the suspension to Amaré Stoudemire I think everybody felt cheated that we didn't get to see the two best teams fight it out on the court ...
The most interesting thing about Grant Hill coming to Phoenix is how he will fit into that offense. Usually they put four guys on the perimeter and one big guy inside. Now they're adding a mid-range shooter -- Hill is not a deep shooter from the three-point line. Now they're going to have two guys inside that line. They could look at it as an advantage -- maybe it presents options that they haven't been able to do in the past. They could put Grant down on the block and Stoudemire at the top of the key, which would present you with the dilemma of having to leave Stoudemire to double Grant in the post; or if you double off one of their perimeter guys, then Grant is a good enough passer to find the open man. Coaches get bored and they're always looking to put in new stuff, so this could be a refreshing deal for D'Antoni ...
I'm prepared to see Grant play different positions. If Boris Diaw can play the high post in that offense, then maybe they'll use Grant in new ways to create mismatches. In certain situations, he could even be used as a backup point guard to bring the ball up. ...
This is a good move for Grant because D'Antoni is a good coach for veteran players. He's not the type who would push Nash or Grant to play if they're hurt. He'll take care of them in practice, and when they practice it won't go long. Phoenix has done a good job in recent years of not suffering a great volume of injuries, and it has a lot to do with the way they play and practice ...
If Stoudemire is ever going to become an MVP candidate, his next step is to become a help defender like Tim Duncan is for San Antonio. Stoudemire has the size and athleticism to be active defensively and help cover the entire court, and it's obvious that he doesn't understand the game as well as Duncan does. I also wonder if he realizes how valuable it could be for him if he became an elite defender. He's still a young guy who looks like he's caught up in his stats, and he doesn't have the unselfishness and intelligence for the game that Duncan has. But then very few big guys do have that ...
One of Stoudemire's issues on defense is that he's always trying to hit the home run. He tries to block every shot, he tries to be intimidating. He needs to learn good solid position defensively: His feet are set, his hands are up and he's not trying to hit the ball out of the park every time. If he was solid, he would limit his fouls, be more consistent and be on the floor more. Every once in a while he'll make the right defensive play, but he comes through for them inconsistently. There are times he blows you away with his intensity, his desire, his work ethic; then there are those other times when he blows you away the other way with his lack of intensity and desire. He's hot and cold and it's hard to win at the highest level when one of your key guys is that way ...
I think everyone feels Stoudemire has turned the corner on his recovery from microfracture knee surgery two years ago. He was recovering from a minor scope on his other knee in preseason, but the way he played last year it looked as if he's recovered from his major physical issue ...
Diaw got heavy last season but he was looking much better and more active in preseason this year. He tends to defer, but the Suns need him to be more assertive and play with more energy, the way he did two years ago when he was the Most Improved Player. ...
Another guy who needs to come up big is Leandro Barbosa, who was a big disappointment in the playoffs against San Antonio after winning the league's Sixth Man Award during the season. He's a truly aggressive player with one of the quickest first steps in the league, but he was another guy who was taken out of his style by the Spurs.
I thought the Suns fans wanted a serious discussion of basketball.
I'll go first: They'll win a load of regular season games, they'll score a lot of points, and if Dallas beats San Antonio before they run into them, then the Suns would become the favorite to win a le. They'd beat any team in the East if they could get that far. D'Antoni doesnt seem to have learned his lesson about trusting his bench and limiting his biggest contributors minutes.
evidently not. with a few exceptions, Suns fans mimic their team - alot of talk and a lot of "action", but no depth or substance.
IMO, this is the last stand for the Suns. If they don't get it done this year, I don't think they'll ever get it done. Nash is right at the "too old" threshold, Marion is just going to whine even more, and Amare's ego will continue to puff up.
At the same time, this is the last stand for this version of the Mavericks too. If they don't get it done, Donnie & Cuban will have no choice but to dismantle the team, or they'll have an intense fan mutiny on their hands.
His take on Marion was pretty dead on. I don't think Marion is a "fluff" rebounder. You don't average 11 rebounds a game being a fluff rebounder. And he was come up with some HUGE rebounds late in games, including the offensive rebound that saved the Suns vs. the Lakers in game six of the 2006 first round. He's had several more, just not of better significance.
However, he isn't a pure rebounder. He's an athletic rebounder. Instead of using force and positioning, he uses his athleticism to fly-in, out-jump or out-second-jump to net his rebounds. He'll always get his, but it is a flawed rebounding style. It's great to have, but not as your best rebounder.
I too think this is their "last stand."
I just can't see Sarver biting the bullet and paying this team again if they, yet again, fail to win it all. I also don't count on Nash always playing at this level. I'll give him this year, but Next year is pushing things. Especially if he ends up setting a new career high in minutes played.
I like the Suns chances vs. anybody not named San Antonio. I've seen that play too often to feel confident. We'll have to see, but without Thomas it'll be VERY tough to defeat the Spurs in seven games.
Both teams are at a crossroads and have their own playoff demons to confront. The Suns have yet to prove that run-n-gun like they do can win a le. They beat teams by increasing the # of possessions and nobody is more offensively efficient than the Suns. And yet the Spurs just physically own them, on the boards, in the paint, everywhere. San Antonio is the classic half-court team that can execute on both ends of the floor. So many teams are trying to mimic Phoenix's approach, but it's been fool's gold up to this point. D'Antoni said he's playing on playing Marion 38 mpg, Bell and Nash 33, and Amare and Hill 30. I can guarantee you they won't win a le doing that. No starter should be above 35 mpg, and they always say they'll limit Nash's minutes, but they never do.
Dallas, on the other hand, has a big problem between their collective ears and a slightly smaller one when it comes to interior scoring. They addressed perimeter defense with the addition of Trenton Hassell, which has been just as big an achilles' heel in the postseason as their other issues and which never gets mentioned, it's all put on Dirk's shoulders. I actually think the Mavs will get off to a slow start, especially with Dampier out. He's overpaid, he has hands of stone, but he greatly improves their interior d when he's in there and Diop can't play over 30 mpg. I have mixed feelings about a possible Kobe trade: I think Josh Howard is on the upswing and just continues to get better and better, and the Mavs just need to be patient with the core they have. On the other hand, with Kobe and Dirk together, you'd have two of the top five players in the league, and given Kobe's desire to play for a contender and his no-trade clause, he won't come to Dallas to play for a gutted roster. There'd be enough left for this team to win a le. But chemistry is always a concern: Carmelo and Iverson work better as a fantasy team than a real one. Dirk would gladly let Kobe be "The Man," but would it work on the court?
I think mono is right: One of these teams for sure won't win a le, and if they both fail, there's going to be major changes.
I agree. I'd take Phoenix right now over Dallas in a seven-game series. Nash is just always on a mission against us. But I don't trust D'Antoni's judgment. He would do well to get Skinner some regular burn so they can at least get some on-court chemistry going. As it is, he won't take his warmups off all year long, and halfway through Game One against San Antonio or Utah, Mustache Man will realize he has to account for Duncan/Boozer and bring in a quality defensive big. At that point their offense will suffer somewhat.
Is there any shame in combining forces?That may just do it!!!
Not at all, but there sure is some bad blood between the two franchises dating back to the Kidd/Finley trade.Is there any shame in combining forces?
I hated that trade. HATED, HATED, HATED, HATED that trade!!!
Really? So did I. HATED HATED HATED it so much that it was the closest I ever came to throwing in the towel on being a Mavs fan. When a used car salesman is trading away the best young PG in the game because some Phil Jackzen wannabe assclown didn't know what he was doing, I just threw up my hands and said "This is hopeless!"
I loved the trade when it happened. I was already a big Finley fan from what I saw of him in his rookie year. And from what I saw, Kidd was creating nothing but Toni Braxton drama and a lot of bricked shots in Dallas. Despite the huge talent we gave up, dropping Kidd for Finley laid the foundation for what the Mavericks have become, IMO.
From how I saw things, the "Three J's" had already proven to me that they weren't going to be doing a whole lot of winning, no matter how long we kept them. Might as well start the fire sale right then.
Cleamons was a moron, no doubt, but Finley was obviously a much better fit for the Don Nelson takeover that was about to take place.
What did you turn Cassell into? The trade was Finley/Cassell/Green/filler for Kidd/filler. I just don't remember where Cassell went afterwards? Was it to Jersey for Bradley?
Yeah I believe it was Cassell/Chris Gatling/filler for Bradley/Robert Pack/filler.
I'll admit, the first couple years of "Don Nelson - GM" it seemed like he was the most idiotic mad scientist ever.....but the Finley trade made me a believer and kept me hopeful.
There was some bad luck too......we basically lost Mashburn for nothing since Sasha Danilovic decided to go back to Europe....if he would have stuck around, he would have been a huge part of the future Nellie Ball regime with Fin/Dirk/Nash.
Bradley was never what his pick selection said he should be, but he was never a slouch. At least not until late in his career. I'm not saying I'd want him as my starting center, but he was a quality big that blocked a ton of shots, and grabbed a fair amount of rebounds.
Will agree on the Mashburn deal. That one hurt. Mash went on to be a stud for two teams. He would have been a quality SF for Nellie Ball... Although, I guess Dirk was originally a SF prospect...
Yeah that one really hurt. I always like Mashburn the best out of the "Three J's". Mashburn's injury history was a concern, but he was a great talent and could have really been a big part of the new-look Mavericks.
And even with the trade going down, Danilovic was a terrific shooter and perfect for Nellie Ball as well. I still don't know the full story of why he went back to Europe...although back in those days, his Euro team might have been better than the Mavs
Maybe he saw all the young prospects and decided he wouldn't get the play he wanted? Suns are in a similar position with Milos Vujanic. They acquired him from New York in the Marbury trade, but in the three years they've owned his rights, he has yet to even express an interest. Stupid really, considering he's exactly what the Suns need as a backup PG: score-first, but good passing, great 3-point shot and pretty athletic.
edit: NVM, didn't realize I was in this thread. Sorry
Last edited by Walter Craparita; 10-25-2007 at 11:49 PM.
This is the non-ratings thread... 'tis expressed as such in te le, ya know ya know...
Finley salvaged that trade, and the Three J's would've never lived up to the hype, considering Jackson was never the same after his ankle injury, while Mashburn was injury-prone himself throughout his career. But I think Kidd was special and his career has borne that out. Outside shooting has never been his specialty but he can control a game and have an impact without scoring. As it was, I doubt we would've ever been in a position to draft Dirk had Kidd stayed, the team wouldn't have been ing terrible enough to be a perennial lottery team. If anything, I feel like Finley's prime was wasted carrying a team for so long. His best year in the pros was our first trip to the playoffs when we beat the Jazz. Not long after, Dirk emerged as the most talented of the Big Three.
Don Nelson would've never traded Kidd if he gotten the job two months earlier.
I dunno. Maybe not, but Kidd's horrendous shooting would never have fit in with Nellie Ball either.
And for whatever reason, I thought Nellie had a hand in the Kidd trade? I know he wasn't officially hired, but I thought I remembered something about him consulting for the Mavs or somesuch already? My memory of the dark days is getting fuzzy.
I've just never seen Kidd's shooting as that much of a detriment. Most coaches and teams would love to have him. I believe the trade went down around Christmas 96 and Nellie was hired on two months later.
Barbosa also had elbow surgery this year to correct a problem that plagued him in the playoffs... being a rhythm player, that injury probably took him as much out of the SA series as the Spurs' defense did.
For being such an "informed" scout, that's a key fact he missed. He also failed to realize that the Suns have the ability to win with this style if D'Antoni uses more players in the playoffs. They could have won game 5 if more than 6 players ever stepped foot on the court and D'Antoni didn't run Nash, Bell, and Marion ragged. Then again, they did lose Kurt Thomas this year, which has to be a worse trade than the Kidd/Finley one.
Last edited by RonMexico; 10-25-2007 at 05:44 PM. Reason: changed "would have won" to "could have won" because I don't want to assume
Yeah you're right, I don't know why but I thought Nellie orchestrated that deal. He seemed so -bent on dumping off the Three J's and I remember him getting the "mad scientist" label around Dallas until his vision finally came into focus.
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