Remember...

[travis2]

66 years ago...
USS Shaw
http://www.nps.gov/archive/usar/photos1/PR-192.jpg
USS Arizona
http://www.nps.gov/archive/usar/photos1/PR-364.jpg
USS Phoenix (fg), USS West Virginia (lr), USS Arizona (rr)
http://www.nps.gov/archive/usar/photos1/PR-1080.jpg

Today
http://www.nps.gov/archive/usar/photos2/PC-44720.jpg
http://www.nps.gov/archive/usar/photos2/PC-44703.jpg

If you've never been...it is a powerful experience. It's cliche', but no words I can put here can properly describe what feelings went through me (and family) when I was there.

[JoeChalupa]

Yes, the Arizona Memorial is truly moving. I was stationed at Kaneohe Bay and everytime we went it always moved us.

Semper Fi!!!

[George Gervin's Afro]

It's very hard to comprehend what those young men went through that Sunday morning.

[xrayzebra]

Got to hand it to the American people also. They responded as
they should have. Much like we started out on 9/11 in which
many Americans now could care less about.

I hope Pearl Harbor is always remembered. For the bravery of our
military personnel and the sacrifice they made on that day
sixty-six years ago.

[JohnnyMarzetti]

Got to hand it to the American people also. They responded as
they should have. Much like we started out on 9/11 in which
many Americans now could care less about.

I hope Pearl Harbor is always remembered. For the bravery of our
military personnel and the sacrifice they made on that day
sixty-six years ago.

As long as Rudy's in the race we won't forget 9/11.

[travis2]

:rolleyes

[PixelPusher]

Got to hand it to the American people also. They responded as
they should have. Much like we started out on 9/11 in which
many Americans now could care less about.

Did FDR tell them to "go shopping" afterwards?

[Nbadan]

Attack on pearl harbor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAnOtWm5OrM)

[exstatic]

Got to hand it to the American people also. They responded as
they should have. Much like we started out on 9/11 in which
many Americans now could care less about.
You do realize that there have been more days between the beginning of the Iraq war and today that there were from Pearl Harbor day to the signing of the documents on the USS Missouri in Tokyo harbor acknowledging Japan's surrender? You can only hold the American people's attention for so long, and that time has passed, with no end to this Iraq quagmire in sight.

[01Snake]

You do realize that there have been more days between the beginning of the Iraq war and today that there were from Pearl Harbor day to the signing of the documents on the USS Missouri in Tokyo harbor acknowledging Japan's surrender?

Whats your point? Two totally different conflicts. We lost almost 300K GI's in that period.

[violentkitten]

and we won and had started to help rebuild the nations we destroyed.

[Wild Cobra]

and we won and had started to help rebuild the nations we destroyed.
Agreed. In Iraq, the democrats want us to just leave and let the place fall into chaos without rebuilding. We cannot effectively rebuild until me can keep some stability.

[BradLohaus]

Even if we do succeed in building Iraq into a shining light of democracy there will still be Saudis, Egyptians, and other Arabs and Muslims around the world who will want to kill us because of our government's vital support of corrupt Arab dictators.

When do we get to the root of the problem?

[Wild Cobra]

Even if we do succeed in building Iraq into a shining light of democracy there will still be Saudis, Egyptians, and other Arabs and Muslims around the world who will want to kill us because of our government's vital support of corrupt Arab dictators.

When do we get to the root of the problem?
Of course not. But to expect changing the world is ridiculous. Iraq is a long term commitment. No one with a brain thought otherwise. Now that we are there, we simply cannot abandon them.

We spent decades with Germany and Japan, with communist countries around them. To suggest the same cannot happen with Iraq is... I wont say.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why anyone with any ethics would want to yank us out, when we have succeeded with such things in history before.

Like I keep saying. The democrats are invested in defeat. They own defeat. Remember Viet Nam?

[Clandestino]

exactly, we left germany and japan right away... i don't believe there are any troops there now... and we left bosnia the day after too. exactly like clinton said we would.

[boutons_]

'Iraq is a long term commitment"

... that was not announced and priced before 2003, one of the many lies of omission by the neo-cunts. The vast majority of all Americans and now a majority of military families want ALL US troops out of Iraq ASAP. aka the will of the people.

The US occupying Iraq against the will of Americans will prove to everybody that the corps and plutocrats run the USA to enrich themselves, not to serve the people.

[Clandestino]

the rebuilding of germany and japan periods followed actual wars of aggression
adequate troop levels
clearly defined enemies
coalition of international support

and, i assume, much less funneling off of money by pseudo-corporate-government entities

so did iraq and afghanistan. we know the enemy, they choose to hide though. we do have international support.we will never have 100% intl support. plus, the u.s. has to do what is in our best interests, not what the intl community feels..

[Clandestino]

can we talk about north/south korea and how american troops aren't helping to stop the number one nuclear rogue state in the world

and compare that to vietnam, one of the US best economic allies in the region?

they are taken care of there. north korea will never try to overrun them.

[Yonivore]

You do realize that there have been more days between the beginning of the Iraq war and today that there were from Pearl Harbor day to the signing of the documents on the USS Missouri in Tokyo harbor acknowledging Japan's surrender? You can only hold the American people's attention for so long, and that time has passed, with no end to this Iraq quagmire in sight.
If you pansies would let the President fight this war the way FDR was allowed to fight that one, and if we were willing to lose a half million American soldiers doing so, I don't think you'd be making that statement.

[whottt]

Even if we do succeed in building Iraq into a shining light of democracy there will still be Saudis, Egyptians, and other Arabs and Muslims around the world who will want to kill us because of our government's vital support of corrupt Arab dictators.

Actually...it won't be us they want to kill...it'll be the Iraquis, the Israelis and any other non theorcratic/monarchsitic nations in the area....


And they won't be able to pull the Amerian/Jew plot card anymore to keep their unworthy governments in power...


They'll have to pull the Arab/Muslim card to keep trying to tap the hate and outrage caused by their medievil style incompetetnt leadership...only it won't work anymore...because Arabs and Muslims are racial and religious bigots and xenophobes...not self hating....they leave the self hating to the jews and liberal Americans.


Really not hard to figure out...

[BradLohaus]

Actually...it won't be us they want to kill...it'll be the Iraquis, the Israelis and any other non theorcratic/monarchsitic nations in the area....


And they won't be able to pull the Amerian/Jew plot card anymore to keep their unworthy governments in power...


They'll have to pull the Arab/Muslim card to keep trying to tap the hate and outrage caused by their medievil style incompetetnt leadership...only it won't work anymore...because Arabs and Muslims are racial and religious bigots and xenophobes...not self hating....they leave the self hating to the jews and liberal Americans.


Really not hard to figure out...

Um...our leaders aren't going to let the House of Saud get overthrown, unless its by a group that's even more friendly to our ME interests. The Saudi people don't like the royal family, the non wealthy Arabs in Egypt and the small Persian Gulf states don't like them or their own governments either, and we give these dictators money and have pledged to defend them militarily.

That's why people in those countries are sympathetic to OBL and AQ, even though living under the kind of regime that they want would be even worse. They see them as their best chance to get rid of their corrupt ruling elite, which they know can't happen as long as the biggest power on earth is backing them with money and force. And the powers that be in this country aren't going to stop backing them because it is not in their interest to do so. That's the root cause of all of this.

Really not hard to figure out...

[whottt]

We can pressure the Sauds for Democratic reform...in fact, we are doing so, and there's been more progress on that front in the last 6 years than in the previous 80 years. Helps if they've seen you take out a country that you had issues with...helps quite a bit.

The Sauds have a trillion dollars invested in our economy...probably a not a good idea to just take a wrecking ball to them, without good reason...not to mention that whole Islamic Holyland thing they have going...


But the fact is, the more Democracies in the mid-east, the harder it will be for the un-democractic countries to stay hardline...with Israel being the only one there it's easy to those leaders to tap into xenophobia and religious bigotry and denounce their way of life and governing...once it's an Arab country that's not shithole it becomes much harder...it also becomes harder for them to claim America only wants to help the jews and is the cause of their suffering.



Really not that hard to figure out...

[Ignignokt]

We can pressure the Sauds for Democratic reform...in fact, we are doing so, and there's been more progress on that front in the last 6 years than in the previous 80 years. Helps if they've seen you take out a country that you had issues with...helps quite a bit.

The Sauds have a trillion dollars invested in our economy...probably a not a good idea to just take a wrecking ball to them, without good reason...not to mention that whole Islamic Holyland thing they have going...


But the fact is, the more Democracies in the mid-east, the harder it will be for the un-democractic countries to stay hardline...with Israel being the only one there it's easy to those leaders to tap into xenophobia and religious bigotry and denounce their way of life and governing...once it's an Arab country that's not shithole it becomes much harder...it also becomes harder for them to claim America only wants to help the jews and is the cause of their suffering.



Really not that hard to figure out...



mission accomplished! more troops to fight our war for oil to power our mcmansions.

[whottt]

Oh how unique...an anti-war liberal. Damn you guys are just a cut above....

Sooooooo smart. Just dig for those old details and find them where others fail to see them....details that are just so well hidden and hard to see...beyond the media shower.


I just want to know how ya'll do it?

[whottt]

No doubt...your opinion is a unique one to this forum and I'm sure you'll have a lot of original insight to contribute that's not readily available to those of us who can't read bumperstickers when forming our political views. :tu


I'm bracing to be staggered by your brilliantly original and thought provoking Bush is evil post. I mean shit...I couldn't hear that kind of political commentary from an uneducated homless guy begging on a street corner who hasn't read a newpaper in 25 years or anything :tu

[Ignignokt]

i guess whoottt cant detect mcSarcasm.

[whottt]

http://www.snappedshot.com/uploads/Intifada2006/r1738373418.jpg


The man in the picture is Tariq Bashir a Pakistani Muslim. He spent the first 18 years of his life living under a bridge in Pakistan smoking opium(that's what you call Pakistani birth control and social programming and it's actually better than what is offered in countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia). At the age of 19 he was found by a kind hearted and gentle Pakistani Mullah and shown the light and warmth of Islam...you know, how nuclear armageddon, in particular a nuclear armageddon upon the US, is our fate and something that should be embraced and loved it is good and pure...how the Jews should be exterminated...how all infidels should be slaughtered. And how killing your enemies via suicide bomb will grant you an afterlife of wealth and happiness(an easy sale considering the toilet that has been his life up to this point)...

He has no education or life experience beyond what that Mullah gave him, that Mullah himself likely has no more than what he passed on to kind hearted Tariq...


You are on about the same level of political insight as this guy...and you say the same exact things...


Congratulations :tu

[JoeChalupa]

I thought the mission was accomplished in Iraq? I'd like to know how y'all did it?

[whottt]

You seen Saddam lately?

[whottt]

http://images.cafepress.com/product/7427745v1_240x240_Front.jpg


Might look pretty good on your car...

[JoeChalupa]

You seen Saddam lately?

No, and I haven't seen any WMD either. And I don't do the bumper sticker thing. I'm sure you've got one of these on yours though.

http://www.rockmerch.com/images/T/BUS01sm.jpg

[whottt]

No, and I haven't seen any WMD either.

I guess Saddam should have thought about that before he kicked the Weapons Inspectors out for 4 years and violated the terms of his ceasefire agreement with us umpteen times...


Sucks to be him.





And I don't do the bumper sticker thing. I'm sure you've got one of these on yours though.



No I don't...

But might I reccomend another for you?


http://toppun.com/ProductImages/anti-Bush/funny_anti_bush_pictures/The_Search_for_WMD_Another_Faith-based_Initiative_weapons_of_mass_destruction_anti-Bush.jpg

[whottt]

Really nifty no war for oil one I saw too.


It's indepth research like this that gives me so much faith in the left...

[JoeChalupa]

Really nifty no war for oil one I saw too.


It's indepth research like this that gives me so much faith in the left...

It's the same indepth research that gives me so much faith in the right... Bumper stickers are lame.....just like huge banners are.

[xrayzebra]

I guess Saddam should have thought about that before he kicked the Weapons Inspectors out for 4 years and violated the terms of his ceasefire agreement with us umpteen times...


Sucks to be him.







No I don't...

But might I reccomend another for you?


http://toppun.com/ProductImages/anti-Bush/funny_anti_bush_pictures/The_Search_for_WMD_Another_Faith-based_Initiative_weapons_of_mass_destruction_anti-Bush.jpg


Some needs to tell the Kurds that they died of something
besides WMD I guess. Also the Iranian's.

He had them. Just what did he do with them?

[BradLohaus]

We can pressure the Sauds for Democratic reform...in fact, we are doing so, and there's been more progress on that front in the last 6 years than in the previous 80 years. Helps if they've seen you take out a country that you had issues with...helps quite a bit.

The Sauds have a trillion dollars invested in our economy...probably a not a good idea to just take a wrecking ball to them, without good reason...not to mention that whole Islamic Holyland thing they have going...


But the fact is, the more Democracies in the mid-east, the harder it will be for the un-democractic countries to stay hardline...with Israel being the only one there it's easy to those leaders to tap into xenophobia and religious bigotry and denounce their way of life and governing...once it's an Arab country that's not shithole it becomes much harder...it also becomes harder for them to claim America only wants to help the jews and is the cause of their suffering.

Well if we pressure the Saudi royalty for reforms, that's great. But as soon as those reforms cause some problems for them they're going to be eliminated. And we are all for democracy in the ME, as long the elected leader doesn't oppose what we do there. If they do then they will get Mosaddeq-ed.

What happens if democracy becomes strong in Saudi Arabia and the people vote to remove the Saudi royalty from power completely, to nationalize their oil (like Mosaddeq), and to kick foreign militaries off of Saudi soil? Do you think we will let that happen? Not a chance.

Understanding the oil interests of the US and not challenging the power structure in the ME are the 2 requirements for ME governments that our leaders have. And I mean the real leaders: the top of the Pentagon, the CIA, the groups like PNAC - the people who really run things. If they really cared about democracy then Mosaddeq would have never been overthrown and the Saudi royalty would have been taken out instead. But the first one forgot the 2 requirements, so he's gone, and the 2nd group understands them, so they stay. The first was elected, the 2nd are dictators, and...well, there you have it.

All of this is bigger than liberal vs. conservative. I'm conservative by the way.

[JoeChalupa]

Well if we pressure the Saudi royalty for reforms, that's great. But as soon as those reforms cause some problems for them they're going to be eliminated. And we are all for democracy in the ME, as long the elected leader doesn't oppose what we do there. If they do then they will get Mosaddeq-ed.

What happens if democracy becomes strong in Saudi Arabia and the people vote to remove the Saudi royalty from power completely, to nationalize their oil (like Mosaddeq), and to kick foreign militaries off of Saudi soil? Do you think we will let that happen? Not a chance.

Understanding the oil interests of the US and not challenging the power structure in the ME are the 2 requirements for ME governments that our leaders have. And I mean the real leaders: the top of the Pentagon, the CIA, the groups like PNAC - the people who really run things. If they really cared about democracy then Mosaddeq would have never been overthrown and the Saudi royalty would have been taken out instead. But the first one forgot the 2 requirements, so he's gone, and the 2nd group understands them, so they stay. The first was elected, the 2nd are dictators, and...well, there you have it.

All of this is bigger than liberal vs. conservative. I'm conservative by the way.

Great post. I don't know why things have to be "red" or "blue" and not an American point of view. I agree with many conservative ways of thinking but I'm also a progressive.

[whottt]

Well if we pressure the Saudi royalty for reforms, that's great. But as soon as those reforms cause some problems for them they're going to be eliminated.


The lack of reforms are part of the reason they are hated.





And we are all for democracy in the ME, as long the elected leader doesn't oppose what we do there. If they do then they will get Mosaddeq-ed.

Oh please...you have no basis for that kind of statement.


Do we hate Democracy in Western Europe? Japan? Korea?


Why would it be any different for an OPEC Country?


Sheer and utter propaganda...we didn't put the Saudi Family in power...it just so happens, they tend to be one of the more stabilizing governments int he region.









What happens if democracy becomes strong in Saudi Arabia and the people vote to remove the Saudi royalty from power completely, to nationalize their oil (like Mosaddeq),

You mean like in Venezuela?


I don't know...what do you think will happen? We go to war?





and to kick foreign militaries off of Saudi soil? Do you think we will let that happen? Not a chance.

Of course we will...we've already pulled out of there quite a bit.


I want you to show me where we stay when governments ask us to leave? When we they are non-hostile towards us and we aren't there as part of a postwar/cease fire agreement.


When...where?


Just because they have some idiots protesting us to leave...that's not the voice of the government...





Understanding the oil interests of the US and not challenging the power structure in the ME are the 2 requirements for ME governments that our leaders have.

Oh bullshit...if they go Democratic and they are not hostile with their neighbors...we have absolutely no recourse for invading them...


We can't pull that off...






And I mean the real leaders: the top of the Pentagon, the CIA, the groups like PNAC - the people who really run things. If they really cared about democracy then Mosaddeq would have never been overthrown and the Saudi royalty would have been taken out instead. But the first one forgot the 2 requirements, so he's gone, and the 2nd group understands them, so they stay. The first was elected, the 2nd are dictators, and...well, there you have it.

All of this is bigger than liberal vs. conservative. I'm conservative by the way.


A conservative who seems to be completely clueless on the coldwar...


Mossadeq was going commie and was likely to ally with Russia...

I know I know...the Russians had nothing but benevolent goals in that region of the world...

And most of the Iranians liked the Shah...and IRan was a nonshithole...you know which Iranians didn't like him? The Islamic ones....because he kicked their ass for wanting to seize power. And they were sponsored by the Soviets BTW.


There are 15 examples of the US doing the right thing, and you take the one example of them doing the wrong thing, you ignore the coldwar alliance aspect of it, you ignore the role the British played in it, and then you attribute it to our current activity in the ME.


And that, is simply lame.


Why don't you just go ahead and say the US was behind 9/11 because the needed an excuse...


If we wanted a dictator to give us subsidized oil....Saddam would still be in power.


OPEC...we aren't just securing our Oil supply over there...we're securing the worlds...


And since control of that region and it's resources has twice been the cause of us entering into a WW...can you really blame us?


I can't.





Anyone that drives a car and uses petroleum that bitches about oil is full of it to me...stop driving a car...practice what you preach, no one is forcing you to drive a car. If you drive a car...stop driving it...then you can complain about oil.

[whottt]

But anyway...you're right, we make friendly with the brutal Saudi regime becase they have oil...and as anyone knows, if you got oil, we're your best friend...

Like Libya, and Iran, and Venzuela, and Iraq...


The relationship with Saudi Arabia is the way it is because of the Cold War...


And I guarantee you we'd rather have Democracy there than Islamic Theocracy...

[BradLohaus]

The lack of reforms are part of the reason they are hated.
Yes, along with their existence.


Oh please...you have no basis for that kind of statement.
No basis for claiming that the CIA will destabilize or overthrow regimes when it is deemed necessary?


Do we hate Democracy in Western Europe? Japan? Korea?
Nothing to do with the ME. And I'm not saying saying that we hate democracy; it's about what is in the interests of the people in power here.


Why would it be any different for an OPEC Country?
Control over oil (Comparing ME policy to Europe and East Asia???)


Sheer and utter propaganda...we didn't put the Saudi Family in power...it just so happens, they tend to be one of the more stabilizing governments int he region.

Irrelevant; all that matters is that: #1 they are hated by the non wealthy in the country and #2 we support them financially and militarily. And yes, dictators often provide “stability” – but it comes at a price if you are a foreign power that supports them.


I don't know...what do you think will happen? We go to war?
No – it will never be allowed to go that far. The Saudi royalty will only allow democratic reforms to the point that their control is threatened; when that happens the reforms will be pulled back. And they have the US military backing them.


Of course we will...we've already pulled out of there quite a bit.

I want you to show me where we stay when governments ask us to leave? When we they are non-hostile towards us and we aren't there as part of a postwar/cease fire agreement.

When...where?

Just because they have some idiots protesting us to leave...that's not the voice of the government...
You are using the voice of the government and the voice of the majority of the people synonymously. If you want an example from a country with meaningful elections, then I can’t give you one. If you want one from a government with dictators in control in opposition to the will of the people, then I can – Saudi Arabia today.


Oh bullshit...if they go Democratic and they are not hostile with their neighbors...we have absolutely no recourse for invading them...

We can't pull that off...
We’ll do it if the democratic governments try to kick out our military and nationalize their oil and prevent western access to it.


A conservative who seems to be completely clueless on the coldwar...

Mossadeq was going commie and was likely to ally with Russia...

I know I know...the Russians had nothing but benevolent goals in that region of the world...

And most of the Iranians liked the Shah...and IRan was a nonshithole...you know which Iranians didn't like him? The Islamic ones....because he kicked their ass for wanting to seize power. And they were sponsored by the Soviets BTW.

There are 15 examples of the US doing the right thing, and you take the one example of them doing the wrong thing, you ignore the coldwar alliance aspect of it, you ignore the role the British played in it
In 1951 the Iranian parliament voted to nationalize Iran’s oil, take control of the British owned Anglo-Iranian Oil Company and to seize their assets. The prime minister at the time opposed this and was assassinated by a fundamentalist group. Mosaddeq was then elected prime minister, and he went ahead as planned. The British wouldn’t let Iran export any oil from the refineries that they used to control, and later threatened a blockade to prevent Iran from shipping any oil out of the country.

This caused hardship in Iran, and Mosaddeq reached out to the communists and fundamentalists in Iran to strengthen his position of power. The British then turned to the US to help resolve their problem, playing up Mosaddeq’s ties to communists (which were based more on his desire to retain power and not ideology), leading to Operation Ajax. In return for helping the Anglo Iranian Oil Company, 5 US oil companies plus Royal Dutch Shell and a French oil company were allowed to operate in Iran after the coup.

Long story short, the Cold War aspect of the situation is played up while the oil aspect is played down. The British played hardball with Iran over control of Iranian oil. Mosaddeq tried to play hardball right back, but the British reached out to the US and the CIA took him out.


and then you attribute it to our current activity in the ME.

And that, is simply lame.
It’s comparable because oil is always the major factor in ME policy.


If we wanted a dictator to give us subsidized oil....Saddam would still be in power.
Did western oil interests make more money in Iraq before or after Saddam was taken out?



OPEC...we aren't just securing our Oil supply over there...we're securing the worlds...
If that’s the case then the world needs to start pulling its weight, but I don’t think that’s really the case.


And since control of that region and it's resources has twice been the cause of us entering into a WW...can you really blame us?

I can't.
Then don’t be surprised when people from countries who live under dictators that our leaders support want to kill us. Chalk it up to the cost of doing business if you’d like.


Anyone that drives a car and uses petroleum that bitches about oil is full of it to me...stop driving a car...practice what you preach, no one is forcing you to drive a car. If you drive a car...stop driving it...then you can complain about oil.
Please…

[BradLohaus]

But anyway...you're right, we make friendly with the brutal Saudi regime becase they have oil...and as anyone knows, if you got oil, we're your best friend...

Like Libya, and Iran, and Venzuela, and Iraq...
You are making my point for me. Saddam is gone and we will be friendly with whatever government is in place in Iraq, as long as they are friendly to our interests. The other countries’ leaders are not friendly to us, so they are “bad guys” who our leaders would love to replace with “good guys” who “provide stability”. It has nothing to do with the fact that they truly are bad guys, obviously. Nobody had any problem with Saddam when he attacked Iran, and nobody did anything when he gassed the Kurds, but he became a bad guy when he attacked Kuwait. It’s all relative - relative to the interests of the people who run our country.


The relationship with Saudi Arabia is the way it is because of the Cold War...
How long do you get to play that card? 50 years? A century?


And I guarantee you we'd rather have Democracy there than Islamic Theocracy...
Definitely. It would be a lot easier…as long as that democracy votes in line with Western oil interests. Otherwise, our leaders will take option B and live with whatever problems fall out from that. Or the rest of us will, I should say.

[MannyIsGod]

I guess I understand why you guys had to go off on Iraq in this thread. Its not like it happens in EVERY OTHER FUCKING THREAD in this forum.

[JoeChalupa]

You guys?