Manu's crazy game

[Manu20]

Spurring Success in San Antonio
Manu Ginobili’s Free-Wheeling Style Has the Spurs on the Move

By John Hareas

He may be the greatest draft day steal in modern NBA history. Fifty-six players were selected ahead of Manu Ginobili on June 30, 1999 and in a little more than two seasons, the 27-year-old Argentinean has not only made a lot of NBA General Managers regret their decision but he has emerged as one of the NBA’s premier players while making a run at his first NBA All-Star appearance. Think the Spurs predicted such greatness? Think again.

“The draft came along and it was in the 50's [late in the second round],” said San Antonio Spurs head coach Gregg Popovich. “And there was nobody who was going to make our team there anyway, and this guy was the most athletic, so we said, 'Let’s draft him.’ But we did not know he was going to become what he is today. That would have been a real stretch.”

What isn’t a stretch is Ginobili’s value to the Spurs, especially this season. After filling a valuable reserve role in his first two campaigns, Ginobili is now starting for San Antonio, serving as the team’s secondary scoring threat alongside two-time NBA MVP Tim Duncan. Ginobili is enjoying career numbers in points, field goal percentage, three-point percentage, assists and rebounds and playing with the same frenetic, fast-paced style that continues to befuddle opponents, coaches and, yes, even amaze his teammates.

“A very different game,” said Brent Barry. “He is so awkward and just takes bizarre steps. Nothing seemingly fundamental...but it works. He is so effective.”

Even Ginobili can’t pinpoint the loosey-goosey style of play that has been instrumental in the Spurs' recent success, including their march to the NBA championship over the New Jersey Nets in the 2003 NBA Finals.

“Oh, I have no clue,” Ginobili said. “I always played kind of like this, crazy and unpredictable. But it turned more like this while I was 18, 19. Before then I wasn’t like this. When I was 19, I was worse than this. My coaches, they used to get so upset. Sometimes happy, but sometimes so upset. I don’t know, but it comes from somewhere. It is probably how I feel the game.”

Ginobili’s road to NBA success was far from traditional. After being selected by the Spurs in 1999, the 6-6 guard played three more seasons in the Italian League where he earned league MVP honors twice and in one season, led Virtus Bologna to the championship and Euroleague Finals where he also picked up MVP honors. In 2002, Ginobili helped his native country, Argentina, to the silver medal in the World Championship.

In a career full of honors and accolades, perhaps the greatest was when Ginobili, who averaged 19.3 points and shot .576 from the field, led Argentina to a gold medal victory in the 2004 Summer Games in Athens.

“Winning an NBA championship is the biggest thing that can happen professionally,” Ginobili said. “But representing your country with more than 30 million people cheering for you and then seeing you up there on top of the podium … it’s hard to find any words [for] that.”

http://www.nba.com/fedex/eng/ginobili.html

[Rummpd]

All of you in other threads saying Marion is unbelievable I reiterate would rather have the verve and skills of Manu!!

MadDoc

[E20]

You beat me to it.

[IX_Equilibrium]

Manu or Marion?

The choice is easy. Manu.

[Manu20]

Manu is a great scorer, defender, rebounder, passer and best of all he is a winner.

[boutons]

In the 4th qtr of the ORL loss, I saw Pop looking at nearby Manu with the ball and making a gesture which I read as "go crazy". It felt like Pop was saying, somewhat desperately since nothing else was working, to Manu "do whatever Crazy Manu does to rescue this screwed up game w'ere losing and closeout with a win". Pop didn't seem to be holding any leash on Manu. But Manu couldn't get any game-changing action going. There will be other chances, and different results. Crazy Manu is a winner, and Scola feels like one, too.

[PM5K]

You've got to be fucking kidding me. I often enjoy reading threads here and responding but when I see blatant bias it just disgusts me...

I would trade Manu for Shawn in an instant. The guy averages about 20 and 12, not only that but he averages slightly more steals than Manu and more blocks than Rasho. The guy is a very good free throw and field goal shooter and an acceptable three point shooter, especially considering the blocks he gives you at his size.

[CosmicCowboy]

I really really like Manu...

That being said, Matrix is a much better all around player and a lot more consistent...

on a team that consistently scores 5 deep in double figures and where he is the 2/3 option his season averages are:

20.2ppg
11.5 rebounds
2.3apg
1.9stls
2 blocks

+ higher fg%, higher ft%, and fewer turnovers than Manu...

take your homer glasses off guys...

[TMTTRIO]

I'm just glad the Spurs ended up drafting him and not passing on him.

[PM5K]

take your homer glasses off guys...

I like Manu a lot also, and I am a Spurs fan but I'm not a retard....

[TNT21]

My game is kinda like Manu's ... NOT!! I wish it were though!!

[tekdragon]

I have a hard time with the "would you trade Manu for Marion" arguement.

They each bring such different qualities to the table. Marion is an athletic scorer, who definitely fills up the stat sheet. I'd say it's pretty clear that individually, he's a better player than Manu.

I just think that Manu is a better team player, clearly a better passer, and just fits better with the Spurs. It's hard for me to say that I wouldn't trade Manu for Marion, but I just don't think I could do it. Not just from a personal standpoint, but as a basketball decision...Manu just does so many things to create wins, where as Marion is a spectacular talent, but I'm not convinced of his ability to play winning basketball without someone (like a Steve Nash) to make him a better player. Manu is the guy who makes other players better.

Still, Marion is one of my favorite players, especially at the 3, in the league. I'd lose serious sleep deciding whether to make this move.

In the end, however, I think I'd have to stick by my boy Manu. Primarily because I think we're seeing Marion play at his best right now. I don't think we've seen Manu play his best ball yet. I don't think we've seen anything yet.

[whottt]

It is a tough decision...Statistically Marion is one of the elite players in the NBA, right there with Garnett and Duncan...and Marion just might be the most versatile player in the NBA...You can see Marion's excellence, his athleticism, everything...you can see it in the stat sheet...

What you can also see in the stat sheet is all his statistical excellence being rendered meaningless on teams without a good PG...you can just look at the team W-L from last season, and even from the seasons he was with Marbury.


What Manu has just doesn't show up in the stat columns as much as it does when you watch him play...

But correct me if I'm wrong...

Didn't Manu just give Marion an asswhuppin in the Olympics? I thought so...I know, I know, Manu had the better team :)

One is a franchise player, the other isn't, stats be damned....I'll leave it up to you guys to figure out which of them is which...

[PM5K]

I wouldn't go so far as to say Manu is a better passer, he does average more assists but he also averages more turnovers.

In the end for me Marion just brings too much that the Spurs could always use more of, rebounding, shot blocking, defense, and points....

[CosmicCowboy]

Marion is a spectacular talent, but I'm not convinced of his ability to play winning basketball without someone (like a Steve Nash) to make him a better player.

Marion has been blowing the doors off stat wise since long before Nash came into the picture...and he fills his stats up across the board with no weaknesses...I am not saying that there is a direct correlation between "real" basketball and "fantasy" basketball but anyone that plays fantasy basketball knows that he is a stat stud...he is so consistent and balanced that he is currently ranked #1 in the NBA for the year and the last month by Yahoo...by comparison Manu is ranked #41 for the year and #64 over the last month...

[tekdragon]

CC,

Again, I agree...there's no question SM fills up the stat sheet. I just think Manu does more to make the players around him better. I don't see as much of that in Shawn.

[whottt]

In fantasy basketball Marion is a virtual one man team...and CC is right, it's been true for quite a few years now...if you have Marion you will have a contender.

Unfortunately for the Suns, it doesn't translate to real basketball...

Shawn Marion is, in effect, Robert Horry on steroids....An accessory...not the main item.

Manu is the main item...he's just not used that way on the Spurs most of the time. On the Spurs he is used more as an accessory...which in a way is a credit to Manu more than a negative about him...It's a rare talent to be able to be both types of player.

[Nikos]

I wouldn't go so far as to say Manu is a better passer, he does average more assists but he also averages more turnovers.

If there is one thing Manu does better than Marion its passing. There is no question Manu is the better passer than Marion. Just because a player avoids turnovers does not mean they are a better passer than another player who has a worse ratio, but creates a lot more plays for others and racks up assists.

[ChumpDumper]

Didn't Manu just give Marion an asswhuppin in the Olympics? I thought so.Scola > Duncan

I await Ghost's chiming with some east coast article saying the Spurs could've traded Greg Sutton for Marion some years ago.

[ducks]

is marion worth the max though?

if he was getting paid less I might want him more as a spur
I wanted him early but the more manu improves makes me not want him as much

[whottt]

Scola > Duncan

I await Ghost's chiming with some east coast article saying the Spurs could've traded Greg Sutton for Marion some years ago.

Why make excuses?

First of all, in your desire to minimalize Manu, or attack my comparison, you fail to notice a major negative I pointed out on Marion's resume, a negative not shared by Duncan, that clearly shows why Marion was singled out and Duncan wasn't...Making your snide Scola, Duncan analogy flawed...

Duncan can carry a team...there is absolutely nothing to indicate Marion can...and if he could carry one he certainly had ample opportunity to prove it last season.

Hence the designation of Marion as an accessory.

Manu knocked off a team of, more or less, elite NBA players, who were coached by a couple of NBA champion coaches...

Stop making excuses for it...it was still basketball, it was a talented team, and Manu, not Puerto Rico, not Italy, not Lithuania, was the reason team USA settled for the Bronze....Team USA only lost one big game in those Olympics...and it was to Manu's team.

One game, both sides knew the stakes and the rules...and Manu had the inferior team from a talent perspective...he won.

Stop the arrogance towards international ball...that type of arrogance was why we lost.

We lost, Duncan, Pop, Brown, and Marion..lost, and Manu and his team, beat them...

Manu, not Scola, was the centerpiece of that team, he was the engine that made it go...

Just because you can't see what Manu does, in stats, doesn't mean he isn't doing it...he impacts a game in a major way, one that defies statistical analysis most of the time.

[waly.mg]

My Choice is Easy

http://www.athens2004.com/en/BasketBallMen/results?rsc=BKM400202&frag=BKM400202_C73

5 GINOBILI Emanuel David
Minutes 32:43
FG 9/13 69%
2FG 5/7 71%
3FG 4/6 67%
FT 7/8 88%
OR 0
DR 3
TR 3
AS 3
TO 4
Steals 1
PF 3
Fouls on 8
Points 29

11 MARION Shawn
Minutes 28:03
FG 4/10 40%
2FG 3/8 38%
3FG 1/2 50%
OR 2
DR 3
TR 5
AS 1
ST 3
PF 2
Points 9

[tekdragon]

uh, waly, hate to break it to you, but if that's your criteria...

Sanchez had a better game than Dwayne Wade.

Is that a trade you're prepared to make?

[ChumpDumper]

First of all, in your desire to minimalize Manu, or attack my comparison, you fail to notice a major negative I pointed out on Marion's resume, a negative not shared by Duncan, that clearly shows why Marion was singled out and Duncan wasn't...Making your snide Scola, Duncan analogy flawed...I'm only attacking your comparison based on Olympic play, which is pretty stupid, not Manu. Stick to your other resume crap.

[ChumpDumper]

uh, waly, hate to break it to you, but if that's your criteria...

Sanchez had a better game than Dwayne Wade.

Is that a trade you're prepared to make?Case in point.

[jalbre6]

He may be the greatest draft day steal in modern NBA history. Fifty-six players were selected ahead of Manu Ginobili on June 30, 1999

ESPN's list from before the draft. Where do you think he stands? From Jeff Merron, http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=list/nba_bestsecondroundpicks

Everybody loves a bargain, a hidden gem. So while most of the speculation about Thursday's NBA draft revolves around Shaun Livingston, Dwight Howard, Emeka Okafor, Siberian giant Pavel Podkolzine and the other big names on the draft marquee, we're going to look the other way -- toward the increasingly important second-round picks. Who's going to be this year's Nick Van Exel or Michael Redd? We don't know. But we're pretty good at forecasting the past. So we give you the best second-round (or third-round, in a couple of cases here) picks in the past 25 years -- the ESPN Era, in other words.

10. Cedric Ceballos (1990, Phoenix)
He may be best known for the blindfolded "hocus-pocus" jam that won the 1992 slam dunk contest. But Ceballos, despite an injury-riddled career (he played only 609 games in 11 seasons), proved an excellent selection for the Suns -- especially considering that the 6-foot-7 forward was the 48th selection overall.

Ceballos, who'd been traded to the Lakers in 1994, was named to the All-Star Game in 1995 (he didn't play due to injury), and led the league in field-goal percentage in 1992-93. His career averages of 14.3 points and 5.3 rebounds don't reflect what he could do when he was able to put in the minutes. In three straight seasons beginning in 1993-94 with Phoenix and then with the Lakers, he averaged 30-plus minutes, 20.8 points, and 7.1 rebounds.

9. Jerome Kersey (1984, Portland)
Kersey was picked 46th overall by the Blazers. He was a 6-foot-7 forward who starred at Division II Longwood College, and he played for 11 seasons in Portland before bouncing around the league for another six on the downside of his career. He excelled in the Blazers' fast-break offense, enjoying a great six-season span starting in 1986-87, when he averaged 15.4 points and 7.6 rebounds a game. He also made it to two NBA Finals as a Blazer, before picking up a ring while with the Spurs in 1999.

8. Michael Redd (2000, Milwaukee)
Redd, a 6-foot-6 guard drafted by the Bucks out of Ohio State, just keeps getting better. After appearing in only six games in his first season, he emerged as a scorer, averaging 11.4 points per game coming off the bench in 2001-02, and then 15.1 points per game the next season, again mostly as a reserve. This past season, Redd started every game, averaging 21.7 points (10th in the NBA) and 5 rebounds, and played in the All-Star Game.

7. Cutino Mobley (1998, Houston)
The Rockets took Mobley, a guard out of Rhode Island, with the 41st pick overall in 1998, and found their current co-captain. During his six seasons, he's averaged 17.1 points per game. Over the past three years, he's averaged more than 40 minutes per game.

6. Jeff Hornacek (1986, Phoenix)
Hornacek was the ultimate underrated player. The 6-foot-3 guard was a walk-on at Iowa State, and didn't go until late (46th overall) in the second round even after becoming an All-conference player. In 1992, he made the All-Star team, then turned into one of the league's best free-throw and three-point shooters. In 14 seasons, he averaged 14.5 points and 4.9 assists per game playing for the Suns, the Sixers, and -- for the last six years of his career -- the Jazz, where he teamed with John Stockton in one of the NBA's best backcourts.

5. Mark Price (1986, Dallas)
The Mavs were smart: With the first selection in the second round in '86, they drafted Price, a three-time All-American at Georgia Tech and the only freshman to lead the ACC in scoring. Then they got dumb fast, trading the 6-foot guard straight off to the Cavs. He went on to average 15 points and 6.7 assists over his 12-year career, making the All-NBA first team in 1993. Three times, Price led the NBA in free-throw-shooting percentage; and he is the league's all-time leading free-throw shooter, with a percentage of 90.7.

4. Nick Van Exel (1993, Lakers)
Van Exel, a 6-foot-1 guard out of Cincinnati. was good right out of the gate, making the 1993-94 All-Rookie second-team by averaging 13.6 points and 5.8 assists. Since then, he's solidified his position as one of the best passers in the league, and also one of the best three-point shooters -- he's now fifth on the all-time list in total treys. In 11 seasons, he's averaged 15.3 points, 3.0 rebounds and 7.1 assists playing for Los Angeles, Denver, Dallas and, most recently, Golden State. Van Exel made the 1997-98 All-Star team.

3. Dennis Rodman (1986, Detroit)
Rodman was the Small College Player of the Year at Southeast Oklahoma State, and the 27th selection overall. When the Pistons picked him, head coach Chuck Daly called him "the quickest 6-8 guard I've ever seen." He won five rings -- two with the Pistons and three with the Bulls -- and was a two-time Defensive Player of the Year (1990 and 1991), a two-time All-Star, a two-time All-NBA Third Team choice (1992 and 1995), and a seven-time All-Defensive First Team selection (1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1995, 1996). Rodman played for 13 years and averaged 13.1 rebounds per game.

2. Drazen Petrovic (1986, Portland, third round)
Petrovic was a European superstar who once scored 112 points in a Croatian League game and led Yugoslavia to a silver medal in the 1988 Olympics before he reached the NBA. The 6-foot-5 guard was traded to the Nets after his first season; he played four seasons in the NBA, averaging 15.4 points per game. Petrovic died at the age of 28 in a car crash after enjoying his best year: He averaged 22.3 points per game and made the All-NBA third team in 1992-93. A great three-point shooter who converted almost 44 percent of his shots from behind the arc, Petrovic was inducted into the Basketball Hall of Fame in 2002.

1. Bill Laimbeer (1979, Cleveland, third round)
The bruiser was such a low priority for the Cavs that by the time they got around to offering him a contract in August, 1979, he had already agreed to play in Italy. After a year in Europe, he played two so-so seasons with the Cavs before they dealt him to Detroit, where he became one of the best centers in the NBA. Despite his reputation as a thug, his effectiveness is indisputable -- he led the NBA in rebounds twice, was a four-time All-Star and, most important, helped lead the Pistons to consecutive titles in 1989 and 1990. In 14 seasons, Laimbeer averaged 12.9 points and 9.7 rebounds per game.

Also receiving votes:

Rashard Lewis (1998, Seattle)

Gilbert Arenas (2001, Golden State)

Eric Snow (1995, Milwaukee)

Kevin Duckworth (1986, San Antonio)

Antonio Davis (1990, Indiana)

[boutons]

An "Argentinean" is a legit synonym for an "Argentine"

[Phenomanul]

In fantasy basketball Marion is a virtual one man team...and CC is right, it's been true for quite a few years now...if you have Marion you will have a contender.

Unfortunately for the Suns, it doesn't translate to real basketball...

Shawn Marion is, in effect, Robert Horry on steroids....An accessory...not the main item.

Manu is the main item...he's just not used that way on the Spurs most of the time. On the Spurs he is used more as an accessory...which in a way is a credit to Manu more than a negative about him...It's a rare talent to be able to be both types of player.


Didn't the Suns have Marion all of last year and they ended up with the last place record in their division...???

[CosmicCowboy]

Didn't the Suns have Marion all of last year and they ended up with the last place record in their division...???

sorry, but thats just plain dumb. A lot of good players play on teams that are bad for one reason or another...Cleveland was awful last year but that doesn't necessarily mean that LeBron James sucks...

[Phenomanul]

Kori do you remember a simillar thread on the old forum (before we re-signed Ginobili)

I had placed some stats that showed Marion was a volume shooter and obtained his points by averaging more shot attempts than even Duncan.

His numbers wouldn't hold up in the Spurs system.

In fact if you sent Ginobili to the Suns, he would be posting very similar numbers to what Marion is currently doing there.

And for those of you that say that Nash has had no influence on his stats... well I need not say what I was going to say.

[Phenomanul]

sorry, but thats just plain dumb. A lot of good players play on teams that are bad for one reason or another...Cleveland was awful last year but that doesn't necessarily mean that LeBron James sucks...

Yeah but the Suns also had Amare, Joe Johnson and for some of the year... Stephon.

Nash is the real reason why the Suns are doing so much better this year.

It's not because Marion is a franchise player....

OH...and BTW had McInnis not been hurt last year the Cavs would have made some noise in the playoffs.... nullyfying your quote on the basis of comparison.

[Nikos]

Amare and Nash are equally responsible for the teams turnaround.

Marion is also to a lesser degree a huge reason for their success.

Again, comparing Marion a SF/PF hybrid to a playmaking off guard is not really the idea here.

Marion is the better player right now and might always be by at least a small margin. But I don't think Marion is better than Manu by as much their discrepency in statistical production.

They are both different players, and Marion is a better SF relative to the rest of the NBA, than Manu is at SG relative to the rest of the NBA at that position.

Both are nice complimentary pieces. Neither is going to lead a team to a championship as the best player. And Marion might not even be the second best player on a championship team should he ever win one. But who knows what he would do alongside Duncan?

Kind of a weird comparison.

[Phenomanul]

Amare and Nash are equally responsible for the teams turnaround.

Marion is also to a lesser degree a huge reason for their success.

Again, comparing Marion a SF/PF hybrid to a playmaking off guard is not really the idea here.

Marion is the better player right now and might always be by at least a small margin. But I don't think Marion is better than Manu by as much their discrepency in statistical production.

They are both different players, and Marion is a better SF relative to the rest of the NBA, than Manu is at SG relative to the rest of the NBA at that position.

Both are nice complimentary pieces. Neither is going to lead a team to a championship as the best player. And Marion might not even be the second best player on a championship team should he ever win one. But who knows what he would do alongside Duncan?

Kind of a weird comparison.


I agree with almost everything you said except for the part I have bolded....

Manu did lead his team to a championship as that team's best player.
Ironically the guy we are comparing him to was on one of the teams that he beat in order to attain the championship.

[Nikos]

I obviously meant an NBA championship.

[Kori Ellis]

Argentinean?????? its Argentine. DUMB ASS WRITERS....how do these guys get these jobs?

It's actually Argentine or Argentinean. Look in the dictionary.

[boutons]

but ...

"how do these guys get these jobs?"

... is still a valid question! :)

[Kori Ellis]

True.

[whottt]

I'm only attacking your comparison based on Olympic play, which is pretty stupid, not Manu. Stick to your other resume crap.


STFU dense bitch.

Game was played for a gold medal...Guess who lost?

Stop making excuses, they are for losers.

Manu was the focal point of the team USA defense and owned their ass.

Marion, unlike Duncan, did get to play in the game and he was a non factor in winning or losing, inspite of statistical excellence, as he has been most of his career...

Don't get all high and mighty with me bitch just because Pop smartened up and figured out we were losing more with Barry and Horry not playing in big games...I didn't have to lose 3 games to figure it out...unlike you...who like now, did nothing but make excuses for stupidity.

Meanwhile...your refusal to look beyond stats is exactly what leads you to conclusions like...Hedo>Manu.

Manu is an impact player of major caliber...Marion is a stat machine who racks up impressive stats with seemingly no impact on team W-L.

Marion played for one of the worst teams in the NBA last season...he is only as good as his PG, despite what his stats say....this trend holds true in the NBA as well as international play.


But go ahead...keep making excuses for Manu winning and Marion losing...be fucking dense, I really don't give a fuck. I suppose the world needs dense people too..

[SequSpur]

Brutal

[SuperManu!!!]

Also, if marion would be traded for manu, his numbers will fall. You can't compare these players because if marion played for the spurs, he wouldn't take the same amount of shots

[ALVAREZ6]

Argentinean?????? its Argentine. DUMB ASS WRITERS....how do these guys get these jobs?
It can be said either way, so whos the dumdass?

[ALVAREZ6]

About this article, you know who is gonig to play in similarly for the Spurs, Beno.

Beno was another steal, the Spurs are good at recruiting great foreign players who aren't recognized.

Jameer Nelson,and other PG's were taken before Beno, but Beno is showing he is a steal.

[ChumpDumper]

Game was played for a gold medal...Guess who lost?

Stop making excuses, they are for losers. You're the one making excuses for Duncan, loser. Duncan lost.

Couldn't even stay in the game.

Sad really.

So in the realm of international ball and Olympics, Scola > Duncan.

It's true.

So what?

This isn't the Olympics, Shane Heal proved that.

This isn't international ball.

Antoine Rigadeau proved that.

[whottt]

So sad, you were lapped in my first two posts, scroll back and read them again...as your point was debunked then before you even got around to making it.

Unless you can point me to a season where Duncan was in the lottery your analogy sucks almost as badly as you do.

[ChumpDumper]

You made an excuse for Duncan.

You lapped yourself.

Quit making excuses, hypocrite.

And your point about the lottery makes zero since -- you aren't comparing Marion and Duncan.

Do you need to have your arguments explained to you again?

[whottt]

Please direct me to the excuse I made for Duncan? In international play? Duncan lost. Manu beat him, and Pop, and Larry Brown, and AI, and Matrix and LeBron and Starbury...



And my point about comparing Duncan to Marion makes more sense than your comparison of Scola to Duncan. You're the one that came up with a fucked in the head dense comparison lacking in insight and knowledge of the subtle differences of the players mention... and tried to make it analougous to my good comparison...

Marion: has done squat to impact W-L on his own...as an impact player, in international ball and the NBA.

That separates him from both Manu and Duncan.

[ChumpDumper]

Please direct me to the excuse I made for Duncan? In international play? Duncan lost. Manu beat him, and Pop, and Larry Brown, and AI, and Matrix and LeBron and Starbury...With Scola. Idiot.
And my point about comparing Duncan to Marion makes more sense than your comparison of Scola to Duncan.You beautifully illustrated my point that it was international ball, which leads to the big so what?
Marion: has done squat to impact W-L on his own...as an impact player, in international ball and the NBA. Get back to me when Manu plays in the NBA without Duncan or in the Olympics without Scola, then all your bases will be covered, m'kay?

[whottt]

Dumbass, what has Marion done in the NBA or international ball on par with what Manu has done in international ball or what Duncan has done in the NBA?

Marion draws a zero in both as far as winning goes...Does Manu? Does Duncan?

And stick Scola up your ass...he wasn't on Manu's team when Manu was winning MVP's over there...

And Manu did a hell of a lot better without Duncan and Parker last season than Matrix did or has done without a PG..

Just STFU until you get it and stop punishing me because you don't.

[ChumpDumper]

Marion draws a zero in both as far as winning goes...Does Manu? Does Duncan? Again, get back to me when Manu wins the Olympics without Scola and the NBA championship without Duncan.

You act like switching Marion and Manu on last year's Suns guaranteed a ring for them.

Nash is kicks the shit out of us and the NBA the Canadians do shit in international play. Again, so what? Acting like they are the same thing is stupid.

I expect nothing less from you.

[whottt]

Again, get back to me when Manu wins the Olympics without Scola and the NBA championship without Duncan.

And the Euroleague?

Get back to me when Marion has done it with or without someone...or shut the fuck up...you have absolutely nothing to back you up.

See, here's how it works...Duncan - has NBA titles as the best player on his team.

Manu has international titles as the best player on his team...not to mention an NBA title...

Marion has? The lottery.

You sucking him off...now shut the fuck up because you have nothing to prove Marion can carry a team....anywhere.





You act like switching Marion and Manu on last year's Suns guaranteed a ring for them.

No I don't, you're just stupid.


Nash is kicks the shit out of us and the NBA the Canadians do shit in international play. Again, so what? Acting like they are the same thing is stupid.

I'm not acting like they are the same thing...you're just stupid.


I expect nothing less from you.

What is the sound of one tard being stupid?

[ChumpDumper]

And the Euroleague?
So Tyus Edny > Marbury, we understand your stupidity.
Get back to me when Marion has done it with or without someone.See, you simply don't get any of it. I point out your rather stupid analogy by taking it to it's logical extreme. You only prove it further with all your backtracking and qualifications.
I'm not acting like they are the same thing...you're just stupid.You just acted like the Euroleague is the same thing too!

Damn that's stupid.

Rigadeau > Ray Allen

We understand.

[whottt]

I point out your rather stupid analogy by taking it to it's logical extreme.

No you make yourself look stupid by taking my good analogy to the extreme and trying to pass it off as my words....that may work for similar weak folk like TPark, MB and their ilk...but basically you are blowing smoke up your own ass...Hedo. That's all your stupidity. I have validity to my point, you have none to yours.

Still, I am heartened by that statement....Recognition is the first step to recovery, at least you are now recognizing you are a twister...hopefully we'll soon have your head removed from it's usual home soon enough.


You only prove it further with all your backtracking and qualifications.You just acted like the Euroleague is the same thing too!

Damn that's stupid.

Rigadeau > Ray Allen

We understand.

No I didn't...and stop speaking for the collective...no need for you to insult strangers.

[ChumpDumper]

I have validity to my pointSure, anyone who is a franchise player in Europe is better than any non franchise NBA player. Good show.
No I didn't.Sure you did. If you didn't why did you bring it up at all?

[whottt]

Sure, anyone who is a franchise player in Europe is better than any non franchise NBA player. Good show.Sure you did.

No stupid...any one who is a franchise player in Europe, International play, an unproven franchise player in the NBA, yet still a title accessory in the NBA, is better than a player who has been proven to none of the above.

It's not my fault you oversimplify and exaggerate my points...I point out you are stupid when you do so...what more should I be doing?



If you didn't why did you bring it up at all?

Because you are a dumbass who likes to pretend that Pop, Duncan and Marion weren't trying to win a gold medal, in an attempt to minimize Manu.

[ChumpDumper]

Because you are a dumbass who likes to pretend that Pop, Duncan and Marion weren't trying to win a gold medal, in an attempt to minimize Manu. Um, they weren't playing in Euroleague. I understand you're all riled up and never make much sense anyway, but please try to keep up with your own side of the argument.

[whottt]

Um, they weren't playing in Euroleague. I understand you're all riled up and never make much sense anyway, but please try to keep up with your own side of the argument.


Pick your poison...Manu's had more W-L based success in Euro, NBA and international ball than Marion...no matter who the teamates were...



...go ahead and make your excuse...either minimizing Manu's contributions to our last title, or his achievements in international ball...

Go ahead...but just remember, excuses are like assholes...they both go hand in hand with a chumperdump argument.

[whottt]

and don't flatter yourself...you couldn't rile me up if you tried, unless you consider making me laugh at your weak shit as "riling"...

Christmas is over and I've had just about enough holiday peace...it's good to see my old punching bag is making itself available to me...

[ChumpDumper]

Hey, you're the one acting like Manu win the Olympics without Scola and the NBA ring without Duncan. Is that realistic?

Tell me what you think the Suns record last year would've been with Manu instead of Marion.

[ChumpDumper]

and don't flatter yourself...you couldn't rile me up if you triedThen what's your excuse for not even being able to follow your own argument?

Stupidity?

I'll accept it.

[whottt]

Hey, you're the one acting like Manu win the Olympics without Scola and the NBA ring without Duncan. Is that realistic?

Manu was the best player on team Argentina...you could take Scola off of Argentina and replace him with Marion and team Argentina would have still won...if you take Manu off of Argentina and replace him with Marion...Team Argentina loses.

It't not like Marion didn't get his chance to be the man...he's not the man....ever on any team. Manu is...and if you took Duncan off this team and replace him with Marion, Manu would be the man on this team.









Tell me what you think the Suns record last year would've been with Manu instead of Marion.


Much better. Isn't it obvious that I think that? Ditto Orlando and TMac...

But if it makes you feel better, the only guys I take over Marion in a fantasy draft are Garnett and Duncan...and I might not take Duncan over him.

[whottt]

Then what's your excuse for not even being able to follow your own argument?

Stupidity?

I'll accept it.


Yawn don't bore me with your circle jerks...you fool no one.

[ChumpDumper]

Manu was the best player on team Argentina...you could take Scola off of Argentina and replace him with Marion and team Argentina would have still won...if you take Manu off of Argentina and replace him with Marion...Team Argentina loses.Oh really? Having Marion play all that time with the Argentinians? Under international rules?
Much better. Isn't it obvious that I think that? Actual numbers.

And Manu's stats.

You're all about conjecture, so get to it.

[smeagol]

Pure entertainment!!!!! :lol

[ChumpDumper]

Yawn don't bore meThen be smart enough to not have me hold your end up of the argument too.

[ChumpDumper]

Go update Barry's minutes for me again while you're at it.

[whottt]

Chump I can't help that you are an idiot...I have more evidence backing up my point than you do...You have nothing.

I have gold medals, euro league titles and MVP's...and an NBA title as well...

I hate to tell you this but Manu's ability to take on a team of All Stars has transated to the NBA...see the first LA game last season.

You, in you dense asslike manner are judging him by what he does in a limited role...much like you judged him against Hedo last season...assclown.

I got something backing my point up...


You OTOH have nothing more than Marion's nutsac swinging over you...

The fact is..the only time Manu was the man...not only did he beat Marion...he beat a shitload of other NBA guys as well, and you are the only DUMBFUCK that thinks Scola was the man on that team...Cunt.....In short, the only evidence points to me being right...

Just as all the evidence points to the fact that Marion couldn't carry a fart out of the lottery...or to the gold medal round.

[whottt]

Go update Barry's minutes for me again while you're at it.

I'll update them in a bit...last time I updated them quickly, in your typical cunt fashion, you accused me of skewing the numbers in my favor when it was nothing more than honest error...if that's not good enough for you...kindly go update them yourself.

[ChumpDumper]

I just showed how your analogy is stupid.
The fact is..the only time Manu was the man...not only did he beat Marion...he beat a shitload of other NBA guys as wellIncluding Duncan, so he must be better than all of them.
and you are the only DUMBFUCK that thinks Scola was the man on that teamShow me where I said that. Link and quote it.

Now.

When you can't, STFU.

[ChumpDumper]

you accused me of skewing the numbers in my favor when it was nothing more than honest error.It was because you say so? You tried to weasel out of the terms two minutes after the thread started, so let's just say I have the facts on my side when it comes to conjecture about any further weaseling.

[whottt]

I just showed how your analogy is stupid.

No you didn't...you being stupid has nothing to do with my analogy. You're stupid, I'm not...therefore it follows..your analogy is stupid...while mine isn't.




Including Duncan, so he must be better than all of them.

In international play? He is better...isn't it obvious? In the NBA? I bet the Spurs have a better winning PCT with Manu as the man than the Suns do when Marion is the man...



Show me where I said that.

Who brought up Scola? You or me? What was your reasoning in bringing Scola up?


Link and quote it.

Fuck you and stick it.

[whottt]

It was because you say so? You tried to weasel out of the terms two minutes after the thread started, so let's just say I have the facts on my side when it comes to conjecture about any further weaseling.

I didn't try to weasel out of anything...we never agreed upon the starting point...ass.

Facts on your side? Link and quote it...We never agreed on the starting point and if anything I was more in the right than you...

[ChumpDumper]

In international play? He is better...isn't it obvious?Gee, that means they are somehow different, Thanks for getting the point. Only took you three hours.
In the NBA? I bet the Spurs have a better winning PCT with Manu as the man than the Suns do when Marion is the man.How nice of you to change the subject from Duncan to Marion. Just thought I'd point that out to you in case you lost yourself again.
Who brought up Scola? You or me? What was your reasoning in bringing Scola up? Where's that quote? I'll give you a few minutes since you seem to be especially stupid tonight.

[whottt]

By the way, I notice SFinLA is reading this thread...you know, he's the guy with a dick for a brain who has your back because he thinks you're female...maybe you can get him to link and quote it.

[ChumpDumper]

I didn't try to weasel out of anything...we never agreed upon the starting point...ass.Ah, the weaseling continues.
Facts on your side? Link and quote it.Damn, the whole thread is a treasure trove of your weaseling.

Still waiting for your quote.

[whottt]

Gee, that means they are somehow different,

Dunno how different they are since most of the recent NBA champs, Euroleauge Champs, and Olympic Champs, seem to have one guy in common..and his name aint fucking Shawn Marion.

Your proof than I am wrong?



Thanks for getting the point. Only took you three hours.How nice of you to change the subject from Duncan to Marion. Just thought I'd point that out to you in case you lost yourself again.

What?


Where's that quote? I'll give you a few minutes since you seem to be especially stupid tonight.

Who are you trying to convince? You or me? I know when you fucking did it and why you did it...you did it to minimize Manu's win and excuse Marion's loss...No need to dig up the link...it's not like you'd stop being stupid if I quoted it anyway...You'd just make up an excuse.

[ChumpDumper]

Agree with bigvee...rest of the season under 10 minutes a game...Before the 12/17 game.

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=114988&highlight=barry+minutes+game#post114988

Still waiting.

[ChumpDumper]

No need to dig up the link.Since it doesn't exist.

C'mon, I did it.

Your turn.

[whottt]

I'm probably wrong...and glad of it...I hope when the season ends I will be wrong...which is why I laugh when you accuse me of skewing the numbers to win a bet...

But what you fail to acknowledge...Pop started using the bench the way I wanted him too in big games...and coincidentally we are no longer blowing leads...

Props to you for being one with the sac...and props to Pop for getting smarter on offense...I hope he keeps it up.

[whottt]

Before the 12/17 game.

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=114988&highlight=barry+minutes+game#post114988

Still waiting.

Um you do know that was before the New Orleans game right?

Rest of the season....

[ChumpDumper]

Again you try to change the subject.

Of course you're wrong. Everyone knows it. I posted the link to show how you agreed to terms and before you tried to weasel out of them later.

You asked for a quote and a link and you got them.

[ChumpDumper]

Um you do know that was before the New Orleans game right?Yes. that's the point.

[whottt]

Yes. that's the point.

There was nothing that I said there that exluded the most recent game at that time...the 2 minute game that was the genesis of the entire argument.


But I don't see what the point is...I conceded the issue in the first post I made and the rest of the time you have just been beating a dead horse...

Much like I now admit that it is looking very likely that I will lose that bet and I will be wrong...

I'm not the weasel here....I've got no problems admitting when I am wrong, in fact it happens so rarely I kind of enjoy the change of pace. :)

[whottt]

Again you try to change the subject.

Of course you're wrong. Everyone knows it. I posted the link to show how you agreed to terms and before you tried to weasel out of them later.

You asked for a quote and a link and you got them.

Um admitting I am probably going to lose that bet and be wrong is changing the subject? Maybe so but it's not like I am trying to weasel out of anything.

Fuck off.

[ChumpDumper]

There was nothing that I said there that exluded the most recent game at that time...the 2 minute game that was the genesis of the entire argument.How can a game in the past be included in the "rest of the season"?
I conceded the issue in the first post I made and the rest of the time you have just been beating a dead horse...Actually you're still trying to justify it, this time with some kind of time travel scheme. Quite funny.

[ChumpDumper]

Um admitting I am probably going to lose that bet and be wrong is changing the subject?When the foregone conclusion of the bet is not at issue, of course.

[whottt]

How can a game in the past be included in the "rest of the season"?Actually you're still trying to justify it, this time with some kind of time travel scheme. Quite funny.

It was the most recent game played at the time...if we'd said "starting with the next game" you'd have a point...but since neither of us said that...you don't have a lot of room to go around calling someone a weasel...in any case, I conceded the point.

[whottt]

When the foregone conclusion of the bet is not at issue, of course.

You're fucking insane...I don't know what more you want of me...I am likely to be wrong, I am admitting it...there being a forgone conclusion has never stopped you from trying to excuse your way out of being wrong...

Perhaps isnstead of talking shit to me for me owning up...you should follow my example.

Even wrong...I'm still better'n you.

[Athenea]

Chumpie...Chumpie...Chumpie...some things never change...
1-U making a let’s praise Manu-thread into a let’s bash one
2-Minimizing Manu's achievements
3-Comparing him to any player/person, animal, plant or mineral and concluding that Manu=worst in any category
I used to attribute this to your Pop's devotion...now I'm lost...
PS: Manu is great but stating that he can't win a Championship all by himself it's true: Bball it's 5 against 5...Manu needs for sure at least 4 other guys. I guess that means MJ, DRob, even TD's awards mean SQUAT under your criteria: they all won w/other 4 to 11 players in the team.

[smeagol]

Chump, I'm also at a loss. What point are you defending in this thread? Do you have a point at all, aside from squabbling with whottt?

[waly.mg]

S. Marion F 26 2-11 0-2 2-2 3 5 8 1 4 0 1 1 6
M. Ginobili G 30 5-11 1-4 2-4 2 4 6 6 3 3 2 0 13

Manu is a Winner ¿But Marion?

[waly.mg]

Check This Out

That´s a real team player

Olympic Final

*5 GINOBILI Emanuel David
Minutes 31:43
FG 4/6 67%
2FG 4/5 80%
3FG 0/1 0%
FT 8/9 89%
OR 1
DR 5
TR 6
Assists 6
TO 2
PF 4
Fouls ON 9
Points 16

16 Points in 6 Shots

He Take 6 shots, 6 Rebounds and Six Assists


http://www.athens2004.com/en/BasketBallMen/results?rsc=BKM400101&frag=BKM400101_C73

[TMTTRIO]

M. Ginobili G 30 5-11 1-4 2-4 2 4 6 6 3 3 2 0 13

Manu may not have had a great shooting night but one thing I noticed was he was very close to getting a Triple Double along with his three steals. If he could of gotten a few more rebounds and assists he would've had one. How could you not want someone like Manu on the team that pretty much does a little of everything instead of just scoring.

[ALVAREZ6]

Manu may not have had a great shooting night but one thing I noticed was he was very close to getting a Triple Double along with his three steals. If he could of gotten a few more rebounds and assists he would've had one. How could you not want someone like Manu on the team that pretty much does a little of everything instead of just scoring.

5-11 isn't bad, that's almost 50%, and he's a SG.

[waly.mg]

1-4 from behind the arc and 4-7 from inside
Bad for the 3P and good for the 2p

[BigVee]

Again you try to change the subject.

Of course you're wrong. Everyone knows it. I posted the link to show how you agreed to terms and before you tried to weasel out of them later.

You asked for a quote and a link and you got them.

Okay, re: Barry's minutes....Nov avg. 25.0.....Dec avg. 11.6...avg since thread in question 13.16....you can see by the Nov to Dec numbers which way the minutes are going. There is still 2/3 of a season to go. His real minutes last night were about 7, the rest in garbage time. So, I still feel under 10 is still in play. If it winds up 13.1 you can say you are right, but it will still be a far cry from the Nov. 25.0.....and the team will still be worse off for it.