What is the Spurs criteria for retired numbers?

[LakeShow]

What is the Spurs criteria for retired numbers?

How in the hell can they retire AJ without retiring Elliott? I'm happy for AJ but that is an honor unsurpassed for an organization. Does AJ fit in that group? The lakers have had a lot of players that fit the AJ mode., Scott, Wilkes, Hairston, Rambis, Nixon, etc. There would be no numbers left if they retired all of the players in the AJ class. Don't you think you're insulting alot of former Spurs players by retiring AJ's number?

Take a look at the Lakers retired numbers and the players that wore them.

Retired Numbers: (7)

13 - Wilt Chamberlain
22 - Elgin Baylor
25 - Gail Goodrich
32 - Magic Johnson
33 - Kareem Abdul Jabar
42 - James Worthy
44 - Jerry West

All of these players are also in the Hall of fame.

Lakers in the Hall of Fame: (16)

1959 - George Mikan
1975 - Bill Sharman
1976 - Elgin Baylor
1977 - Jim Pollard
1978 - Wilt Chamberlain
1978 - Pete Newell
1979 - Jerry West
1981 - Slater Martin
1995 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Vern Mikkelsen
1996 - Gail Goodrich
2000 - Robert McAdoo
2002 - Earvin "Magic" Johnson
2003 - James Worthy
2004 - Bill Sharman
2007 - Phil Jackson

[Kori Ellis]

How in the hell can they retire AJ without retiring Elliott?

Umm... Elliott's number was retired two years ago.

[Dex]

http://www.nba.com/media/spurs/elliott_jersey_170.jpg

thread fail

[LakeShow]

Umm... Elliott's number was retired two years ago.

Hell, i thought I heard it but I looked it up and they didn't have it listed, My bad, but still....

[timvp]

I would say fail but at least he spelled Elliott right.

[LakeShow]

Damn Outdated website, :pctoss

http://www.thesportsroadtrip.com/halloffame.html

what numbers are retired by the spurs?

[Dex]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Basketball_Association_retired_je rsey_numbers

Give it up to teh wiki.

[LakeShow]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Basketball_Association_retired_je rsey_numbers

Give it up to teh wiki.

Yeah that's more like it, Robinson wasn't even on that list.

[Bruno]

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20071223/capt.9f7529bff7774dc6b1329f14d630615e.avery_johnso n_jersey_retired_txds105.jpg

Retiring a jersey is something decided by a franchise.
Every Franchise set the bar at the level they want and it's not only based on the level of play but also on what the player means to the team history or to the communauty.
Spurs have set the bare at a lower level than Lakers. It's their choice and you can't really say that the Lakers or Spurs choice is better than the other.
The only thing that you could criticize is if a franchise isn't consistent and snub some players. as an example, I have nothing against Spurs retiring Avery number as long as they retire bowen number when he will retire.

[ShoogarBear]

Are the Lakers going to retire Shaq's number?

[LakeShow]

Are the Lakers going to retire Shaq's number?

I'm sure they will. They should!

[LakeShow]

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20071223/capt.9f7529bff7774dc6b1329f14d630615e.avery_johnso n_jersey_retired_txds105.jpg

Retiring a jersey is something decided by a franchise.
Every Franchise set the bar at the level they want and it's not only based on the level of play but also on what the player means to the team history or to the communauty.
Spurs have set the bare at a lower level than Lakers. It's their choice and you can't really say that the Lakers or Spurs choice is better than the other.
The only thing that you could criticize is if a franchise isn't consistent and snub some players. as an example, I have nothing against Spurs retiring Avery number as long as they retire bowen number when he will retire.

What about Alvin Robertson? I know he moved on to play alot of years with other teams but everytime I think about him, i think Spurs.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

I would say fail but at least he spelled Elliott right.

[ShoogarBear]

Alvin's best years were the equal of any Spur guard not named George Gervin, but he didn't really stay with the Spurs long enough, and then his numerous subsequent arrests guaranteed it would never happen.

The guys who really have an argument now that Moore and AJ's have been retired are Mike Mitchell and Larry Kenon.

[ArgSpursFan.]

AJ kicked ass with the Spurs, and that's what counts.Period.
It don't matter where He's working right now.
It's a retired Jersey,not a retired coach suit.

[Armando]

When is Stephen Jackson's jersey retirement?

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

You guys think Gilmore will have his retired?

[timvp]

One main difference between the Spurs and the Lakers is the Spurs didn't inherit a championship team like the Lakers did. Minneapolis set the groundwork for the Lakers' success so by the time the team got to LA, it was easy to only accept the best.

With the Spurs in San Antonio, they actually had to set their own foundation. So the players who got the Spurs over the hump meant more to this franchise. Los Angeles inherited a team that was already over the hump with five championships in the bag. The team was one year removed from yet another trip the finals when it moved to LA.

If AJ played for the Spurs today, no way he would get his jersey retired. But the players who helped turn this franchise from contender to champions should have been and were honored.

[LakeShow]

Alvin's best years were the equal of any Spur guard not named George Gervin, but he didn't really stay with the Spurs long enough, and then his numerous subsequent arrests guaranteed it would never happen.

The guys who really have an argument now that Moore and AJ's have been retired are Mike Mitchell and Larry Kenon.

ok, I see. That's tough for Alvin, he really earned that honor during his years there.

[LakeShow]

One main difference between the Spurs and the Lakers is the Spurs didn't inherit a championship team like the Lakers did. Minneapolis set the groundwork for the Lakers' success so by the time the team got to LA, it was easy to only accept the best.

With the Spurs in San Antonio, they actually had to set their own foundation. So the players who got the Spurs over the hump meant more to this franchise. Los Angeles inherited a team that was already over the hump with five championships in the bag. The team was one year removed from yet another trip the finals when it moved to LA.

If AJ played for the Spurs today, no way he would get his jersey retired. But the players who helped turn this franchise from contender to champions should have been and were honored.

If you're going by that i understand. Avery was there before he became a champion with the Spurs so he did play a part in your turnaround.

[Dave McNulla]

laker fan is just fishing. instead of asking spurs fans why the spurs organization is retiring somebody's jersey, why don't you ask the hall of fame why artis gilmore isn't in it yet? he's clearly bigger than a lot of players that are in the hall of fame.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artis_Gilmore

Hall of Fame candidacy

Despite an ABA career in which he averaged 22.3 points and 17.1 rebounds per game, NBA career averages of 17.1 points and 10.1 rebounds per game, Gilmore has yet to be elected to the Hall of Fame; he is one of several former ABA MVPs who have not received the honor. In addition to being pro basketball's all-time most successful field goal percentage shooter, Gilmore ranks among the top 25 all-time point scorers, as well as in the top ten in rebounds, blocked shots, games and minutes played. No other players with comparable statistical accomplishments have been omitted from the Hall of Fame. Gilmore remains ineligible for consideration of Hall of Fame enshrinement until 2012. For the past three years he failed to receive a single vote of support from a panel of nine basketball experts serving on the North American screening committee. This committee is anonymous.

[whottt]

laker fan is just fishing. instead of asking spurs fans why the spurs organization is retiring somebody's jersey, why don't you ask the hall of fame why artis gilmore isn't in it yet? he's clearly bigger than a lot of players that are in the hall of fame.



Agree with that...Atrist should have been in the Hall years ago...and is the guy most deserving not in the Hall. I'm not sure what kind of case he has for Spurs jersey retirment, because his career was spent with so many different teams...but he's definitely a HOFer.

[LakeShow]

laker fan is just fishing. instead of asking spurs fans why the spurs organization is retiring somebody's jersey, why don't you ask the hall of fame why artis gilmore isn't in it yet? he's clearly bigger than a lot of players that are in the hall of fame.

He should be in the Hall. I'm really not fishing I was just curious on how and why Avery was selected. He didn't have a stellar career as a player over the years, but he was there to help you win your first title.

[whottt]

I can't believe George Mikan's number is not retired by the Lakers....he was their first great player and force behind more of their championships than just about any other player outside of Magic.



As for the Spurs criteria:

Silas - Career Spur, first face of the franchise.
Gervin - Franchise, one of the NBA's greatest.
Moore - Mainly...tragic figure, career Spur.
Drob - Franchise, one of NBA's greatest. One of cities greatest.
Elliott - Career Spur, inspirational figure.
AJ - Career Spur who wasn't really a career Spur, Inspirational who is not that inspiriational at times. Made the right friends...with the heart of the franchise, the head of the franchise, and the mouth of the franchise.

[LakeShow]

I can't believe George Mikan's number is not retired by the Lakers....he was their first great player and force behind more of their championships than just about any other player outside of Magic.



As for the Spurs criteria:

Silas - Career Spur, first face of the franchise.
Gervin - Franchise, one of the NBA's greatest.
Moore - Mainly...tragic figure, career Spur.
Drob - Franchise, one of NBA's greatest. One of cities greatest.
Elliott - Career Spur, inspirational figure.
AJ - Career Spur who wasn't really a career Spur, Inspirational who is not that inspiriational at times. Made the right friends...with the heart of the franchise, the head of the franchise, and the mouth of the franchise.

They only retired the jersey of players that actually played in LA. Kind of petty though, I would have no problem with his number being retired.

[whottt]

He should be in the Hall. I'm really not fishing I was just curious on how and why Avery was selected. He didn't have a stellar career as a player over the years, but he was there to help you win your first title.

Basically there are 3 criteria which get jerseys retired


Greatness
Career with one team player, embodiment of the Team type player who was beloved by fans.
Tragedy or Inspiration


Most guys at least have a strong case in one of those 3 criteria...usually 2. AJ's got a weak case in two of them and those are combined to equal one criteria on the part of those who claim he was deserving.


It is unsual to see a guy like Avery Johnson get his jersey retired and the circumstances behind his being retired are relatively unique in all of pro sports. He's basically getting in under the embodiment of the team criteria...only half his career was spent with other teams and he didn't leave town on the best of terms....


There is a 4th criteria...PR stunt to put butts in the seats for a financially struggling franchise...but that one is rare and usually the player fits at least one other major criteria. Johnny Moore kind of got in using that one....in addition to Tragedy and Career qualifiactions. It could be said that Johnny Moore is really the only guy who fit all 4 of the criteria.

He was a great PG by our standards then.
He did spend the majority of his career with the team. And for a brief moment he was the franchise.
He did have his career tragically cut short.
And his jersey retirement was something of a PR stunt.

[whottt]

They only retired the jersey of players that actually played in LA. Kind of petty though, I would have no problem with his number being retired.


If you guys are going to say the LA Lakers have 15 Titles...then Mikan's jersey needs to be up in the rafters. Because without him ya'll don't have 15.

[BonnerDynasty]

Don't you think they're insulting a lot of former Spurs players by retiring AJ's number?

YES.

[ShoogarBear]

If you guys are going to say the LA Lakers have 15 Titles...then Mikan's jersey needs to be up in the rafters. Because without him ya'll don't have 15.Excellent point. You can't claim the titles without recognizing Mikan, Slater Martin, Jim Pollard et al.

[whottt]

Personally I'd rather see them leave Mikan's jersey unretired and just stop saying they have 15 Titles...10 is easier to catch :smokin

[ShoogarBear]

Oh, they'll never do that, because they're trying to catch the Celtics.

[Indazone]

The criteria is you used to play for the Spurs and now you play for some other team that will compete with you in the same division. Luis Scola is next hehehe.

[LakeShow]

If you guys are going to say the LA Lakers have 15 Titles...then Mikan's jersey needs to be up in the rafters. Because without him ya'll don't have 15.

We never claimed to have 15 titles! It's 14 :) They should retire his number just on General principals. I agree.

[freemeat]

The guys who really have an argument now that Moore and AJ's have been retired are Mike Mitchell and Larry Kenon.


Hell yes!!
:fro

[Doctor J]

Alvin's best years were the equal of any Spur guard not named George Gervin, but he didn't really stay with the Spurs long enough, and then his numerous subsequent arrests guaranteed it would never happen.

The guys who really have an argument now that Moore and AJ's have been retired are Mike Mitchell and Larry Kenon.

I do agree!

Alvin has no chance.

But I have always been wondering why Mike Mitchell was left out. He was a phenomenal player for almost a decade for the Spurs. :cry

Larry Kenon, however, enjoyed a relatively short stinct with the Spurs - only 5 seasons.

[FromWayDowntown]

Alvin Robertson's jersey number will be retired; it will just have Tim Duncan's name on it.

[timvp]

And his jersey retirement was something of a PR stunt.How was 00 a PR stunt?

I think Moore's legacy in San Antonio is mostly due to his UT ties. If he went to any other school, his jersey wouldn't have been retired. UT kid who overcame Desert Fever was good enough to retire his jersey, I guess.

[FromWayDowntown]

The guys who really have an argument now that Moore and AJ's have been retired are Mike Mitchell and Larry Kenon.

I think, given the existing criteria, that Kenon, at least, is long overdue. Kenon's statistical resume is as good as or better than Elliott's (sans the kidney transplant and an opponent crushing shot in a conference final). Though he's not in the Top 10 in games played, he's still 7th in franchise history in points (Gervin, Robinson, Duncan, Mitchell, Elliott, and Parker are in front of him) and 5th in rebounds. He has one of the 11 50-point games by a Spurs player (Gervin had 5, Dave had 3, and Cummings and Duncan have the other 2). He was a 2-time All-Star while with the Spurs as well. The strike against Kenon, I think, is that he accomplished all of that in only 4 NBA seasons with the Spurs and only played 5 years for the organization. Retiring Kenon is a lot like thinking about retiring Terry Cummings' number -- each was instrumental for a few years on some really good Spurs' teams, but neither sustained that level of play for very long with the Spurs. I think the lack of longevity will ensure that Kenon never gets the honor and does in Cummings too, but of all retired ex-Spurs, I think those two1 might deserve it the most.

Mitchell has the longevity and was a huge part of getting the Spurs to consecutive conference finals in 82 and 83 and is still the 4th most prolific scorer in franchise history. But, Mitchell was never The Man for the Spurs -- the 2 years that he topped the scoring chart for the club, they were pretty bad. Mitch never made an All-Star team as a Spur (though Gervin and Robertson each made multiple All-Star teams while playing with Mitchell). While he was on good teams early in his Spurs career, that faded pretty quickly -- after his 2nd year in SA -- and he was stuck on some pretty bad teams by the end of his stay in SA (save for his brief resurrection for the 1990 Playoffs). You can get into the rafters as the second (or third) banana if you play on extremely successful teams or have your career cut short by some sort of terrible injury, I think, but Mitchell doesn't really have either of those things in his favor.

[spurs1990]

Take a look at the Lakers retired numbers and the players that wore them.

Retired Numbers: (7)

13 - Wilt Chamberlain
22 - Elgin Baylor
25 - Gail Goodrich
32 - Magic Johnson
33 - Kareem Abdul Jabar
42 - James Worthy
44 - Jerry West



Good Christ! Compared with the Lakers, every team in the NBA is significantly underwhelming in whose jersey they've retired. No way is it a fair argument with those names you reeled off.

Internally, its unfair for the big 3, Gervin, Robinson, and Duncan to be viewed in equal terms with the likes of Avery Johnson. Come to think of it, as much as he had to do with the 1999 ring, he was even more responsible for the wretched officiating in 2006 which cost the Spurs their title in that season...but I digress.

[freemeat]

Come to think of it, as much as he had to do with the 1999 ring, he was even more responsible for the wretched officiating in 2006 which cost the Spurs their title in that season...but I digress.

Thank god Elliott's happy as a local broadcaster and not the coach of the Rockets!

[cherylsteele]

Alvin's best years were the equal of any Spur guard not named George Gervin,
And to top it off.....Alvin wore the same number as Duncan does today.
This is no contest. it will be retire, but with the name Duncan on it, not Robertson.

[freemeat]

And to top it off.....Alvin wore the same number as Duncan does today.
This is no contest. it will be retire, but with the name Duncan on it, not Robertson.

Didn't even think of it...but now that you mention it, Robertson will never be retired a Spur:


http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/spurs/images/top30spurs/MYSA020407.T30S.robertson10.jpg

[whottt]

How was 00 a PR stunt?

I think Moore's legacy in San Antonio is mostly due to his UT ties.

And you just answered your own right there. That was in the midst of one of their rare Austin marketing attempts...during a period when they were holding scrimmages in Austin from to time. It was at a period when they had just come out of nearly being forced to leave SA and the Admiral was in the middle of righting that ship, they had a product to push, it was the dawn of the basketball on cable era and for the first time you could catch Spurs games pretty regularly in Austin. I think it was HSE network...plus TNT was just getting into the basketball bizz.

Digression: It's lame as hell that no station in Austin has local broadcast rights to Spurs game...the KENS singal has not reached greater Austin since about 1975.

The Spurs are not bigger in Austin because you can't catch their games, without cable, and even if you hav cable...you don't get that many games.

I don't know why KENS doesn't have some kind of sub distribution rights here....but that's hurt the Spurs in Austin, probably more than any other thing. [/end digression]



and they were trying to push it in Austin. They haven't done it much which is why it's pretty easy to notice when they do it...that was probably their second biggest attempt in Austin and the only that might be bigger was one in the early early 80's at Gervin's peak.

...they made a lot of connections with Austin and that was a pretty big story in Austin at the time. In fact I'd be willing to bet Moore's jersey being retired was a bigger deal in Austin than it was in SA. As was his illness...


That was also back in the day when the SAEN sports section sucked butt
(I think there were two major SA papers back then, both sucked on Sports coverage) ..even their Spurs coverage. So it was probably covered in the news more in Austin as well. That was back in the days when the Dallas Morning News did as good of a job if not better than the San Antonip Papers. Any article about the Spurs in the SA papers was sheer cotton candy fluff.




If he went to any other school, his jersey wouldn't have been retired. UT kid who overcame Desert Fever was good enough to retire his jersey, I guess.

Well I definitely think the major factor was his illness, but there's no doubt the fact that he was one of the best basketball players produced by UT up to that point was a factor...


As for how good Moore was...I think he's under-rated...and whether he's underrated or not...there's no doubt his career numbers were hurt by his illness.

[Indazone]

To mention AJ and George Gervin in the same breathe makes me ill. No way should AJ's jersey be flying next to the G-Man.

[freemeat]

To mention AJ and George Gervin in the same breathe makes me ill. No way should AJ's jersey be flying next to the G-Man.

When you put it that way...no player short of DRob should be hanging there!

It's a tough sell in this crowd, and I agree that it's not worthy (just yet)...

[Ignignokt]

Why hasn't Malik Rose's jersey been retired? He meets the aj criteria.

Which is likeable,

Carreer scrub,

Whott Bait.

[whottt]

I guess Malik wasn't a career Spur...I'd say if he spent his career with the team then he'd have an argument. If AJ had spent his entire career with the Spurs you couldn't really mount much of an argument against him...

I realize it's not entirely their fault they weren't career Spurs(especially in the case of Malik), but that's the whole thing about career team guys having a strong argument...because it is so rare that it happens and a player becomes so strongly indentified with one team.


You know...I think Michael Finley was a no brainer jersey retirement candidate for the Mavs, if he'd retired the day they waived him, even including his Suns years....now? I'm not so sure. Something about finishing a career with a different team(s) hurts a guys case...

[whottt]

BTW Gtown...your stupid man's Marcus Bryant act is growing increasingly stale...either stop sucking or shut up.

[timvp]

And you just answered your own right there. That was in the midst of one of their rare Austin marketing attempts...during a period when they were holding scrimmages in Austin from to time. It was at a period when they had just come out of nearly being forced to leave SA and the Admiral was in the middle of righting that ship, they had a product to push, it was the dawn of the basketball on cable era and for the first time you could catch Spurs games pretty regularly in Austin. I think it was HSE network...plus TNT was just getting into the basketball bizz.

Digression: It's lame as hell that no station in Austin has local broadcast rights to Spurs game...the KENS singal has not reached greater Austin since about 1975.

The Spurs are not bigger in Austin because you can't catch their games, without cable, and even if you hav cable...you don't get that many games.

I don't know why KENS doesn't have some kind of sub distribution rights here....but that's hurt the Spurs in Austin, probably more than any other thing. [/end digression]



and they were trying to push it in Austin. They haven't done it much which is why it's pretty easy to notice when they do it...that was probably their second biggest attempt in Austin and the only that might be bigger was one in the early early 80's at Gervin's peak.

...they made a lot of connections with Austin and that was a pretty big story in Austin at the time. In fact I'd be willing to bet Moore's jersey being retired was a bigger deal in Austin than it was in SA. As was his illness...


That was also back in the day when the SAEN sports section sucked butt
(I think there were two major SA papers back then, both sucked on Sports coverage) ..even their Spurs coverage. So it was probably covered in the news more in Austin as well. That was back in the days when the Dallas Morning News did as good of a job if not better than the San Antonip Papers. Any article about the Spurs in the SA papers was sheer cotton candy fluff.





Well I definitely think the major factor was his illness, but there's no doubt the fact that he was one of the best basketball players produced by UT up to that point was a factor...


As for how good Moore was...I think he's under-rated...and whether he's underrated or not...there's no doubt his career numbers were hurt by his illness.Hate to bust your bubble, especially on Christmas and especially because I agree with a lot of your takes on Moore, but Moore's jersey was retired either late 1998 or early 1999. Far after the time period you speak of.

:santahat

[whottt]

Hate to bust your bubble, especially on Christmas and especially because I agree with a lot of your takes on Moore, but Moore's jersey was retired either late 1998 or early 1999. Far after the time period you speak of.

:santahat

No shit? I'd have sworn it was during the 90-91 season....oh well, sounded good ;)

But you yourself still made the PR argument for me by mentioning the UT connection....

In any case...Moore's illness and return were a big deal in Austin, and were covered pretty extensively in the Austin papers.

[Dalhoop]

I think that getting a team to a point that they had not been before should be included. Obviously the mavs have not won anything of real value, but the numbers in the rafters here were a part of getting the team to respectablity in the late 80's.

Mashburn, Jackson and Kid put up the numbers, but did it had no impact on the floor. they still lost (a lot)

So we have B. Davis in the rafters and not Kidd, obviously one is far better then the other, but Davis helped the team to win.

[FromWayDowntown]

Hate to bust your bubble, especially on Christmas and especially because I agree with a lot of your takes on Moore, but Moore's jersey was retired either late 1998 or early 1999. Far after the time period you speak of.

:santahat

March 20, 1998.

Silas, Feb. 28, 1984
Gervin, Dec. 5, 1987
Moore, Mar. 20, 1998
Robinson, Nov. 10, 2003
Elliott, Mar. 6, 2005
Johnson, Dec. 22, 2007

[Vinny Del Negro]

When are we gonna retire #23 out of respect for Jordan, just like the Heat?

Sorry to derail the thread, but I will never let this drop. Pure comedy.

[sa_butta]

In 20 years or so the Spurs players will have to wear triple digit jerseys.

[whottt]

March 20, 1998.

Silas, Feb. 28, 1984
Gervin, Dec. 5, 1987
Moore, Mar. 20, 1998
Robinson, Nov. 10, 2003
Elliott, Mar. 6, 2005
Johnson, Dec. 22, 2007


If that's the case then it makes sense why there is a pretty big segment of Spurs fans that dont' think his jersey deserved to be retired...because by then he was largely forgotten...


In the era of which I speak he was one of the most well known Spurs, even during David's rookie year...and his story got a lot of coverage...includign during the Spurs playoff run...

What happend with him was very similar to what happened with Elliott...he got struck down by a rare disease...that had the potential to be life threatening...and he fought his way back to the NBA and overcame that disease...even playing a role on the 89-90 Spurs. It was also pretty apparent during that season that he wasn't the same player.


And for all you guys that don't think he was that great of a PG...it'd have been nice to have Johnny Moore at full strength on the 89-90 Spurs...might have made a big difference to have an experienced and talented PG on that team during the playoffs.


He was a much more sympathetic figure at that time, as well as important to the Spurs and it made a lot more sense to retire his jersey at that time.

I am pretty sure they did something for him in 90-91 even if it wasn't a jersey retirement, gave him a night or something...