Norv Turner vs. Bill Belichick

[slayermin]

I thought it would be fun to see how their teams fared when they matched wits against each other over the years. Turner is an offensive coach and Belichick's specialty is defense.

Turner calls most of his plays, even when he is head coach. And Belichick might have a defensive coordinator, but it's his defense scheme.

Here is a list of games when both held a title of either coordinator, asst. head coach, or head coach. Turner was a wide receivers coach during 1985-90 so I did not include any of those games. Belichick was the defensive coordinator of the New York Giants at that time.

1991 Dallas Cowboys 26 Cleveland Browns 14
1996 Washington Redskins 27 New England Patriots 22
1999 Washington Redskins 27 New York Jets 20
2001 San Diego Chargers 29 New England Patriots 26
2002 Miami Dolphins 26 New England Patriots 13
2002 New England Patriots 27 Miami Dolphins 24
2003 New England Patriots 19 Miami Dolphins 13
2003 New England Patriots 12 Miami Dolphins 0
2005 New England Patriots 30 Oakland Raiders 20
2007 New England Patriots 38 San Diego Chargers 14

Belichick is on a five game winning streak. But the overall record is 5-5.

[bostonguy]

Belichick is a GOD and the best NFL coach in history while Turner is a vulnerable mortal.

[K-State Spur]

Has any current or recent coach failed their way upwards as much as Turner?

[K-State Spur]

Belichick is a GOD and the best NFL coach in history while Turner is a vulnerable mortal.

I'd like to see Belicheck win with a different corp of players before I would anoint him the best in NFL history. However, if he gets 4 with an unprecedented undefeated season (all during the salary cap era), the argument against him becomes very difficult.

I don't know who I'd put at #1 right now. Noll has 4, but it was the same team winning them all. Walsh and Landry both have 3. Gibbs has 3 as well, but with 3 very different rosters, which may make him (the first time around) the most impressive of all.

[slayermin]

Has any current or recent coach failed their way upwards as much as Turner?

Norv wouldn't keep getting work if he wasn't a good coach. He knows how to call a game.

[TheSanityAnnex]

I'd like to see Belicheck win with a different corp of players before I would anoint him the best in NFL history. This is something I pointed out when everyone was bashing the Norv hiring. Belichick hadn't done shit when he had teams with no talent, much like Norv.

[Fillmoe]

norv should be calling plays for the niners instead of losing to the pats this sunday

[SAtown]

norv should be calling plays for the niners instead of losing to the pats this sunday

Who are the niners playing this sunday?

[NBA Junkie]

Turner is a conservative coach when his teams have leads and Belichick is not.

[inconvertible]

that game this year is not indictative cause the chargers were just learning his system.

but considering the players he has now and the fact they have learned his system......the chargers will win.

[NBA Junkie]

I'm still waiting for someone to explain how the Chargers can stop that high octane Patriots offense.

If the Colts can move the ball up and down the field on that Charger defense, you know the Patriots will too.

Unlike the Colts, the Patriots won't kill themselves with silly red zone turnovers. In fact, they rarely turn the ball over at all.

Patriots win 38-21.

[san antonio spurs]

This is something I pointed out when everyone was bashing the Norv hiring. Belichick hadn't done shit when he had teams with no talent, much like Norv.
you realize it's to his credit that he has a talented team right?
It's ridiculous to take that against him when he's the one hiring the personnel.

[K-State Spur]

This is something I pointed out when everyone was bashing the Norv hiring. Belichick hadn't done shit when he had teams with no talent, much like Norv.

Norv actually had 2 or 3 pretty good teams in DC...and made the playoffs once, never past the second round.

[J.T.]

Belichick is the Phil Jackson of the NFL. PJax hasn't done shit without Jordan or Shaq, Belichick hasn't done shit without Brady and that defense.

[stretch]

Belichick is the Phil Jackson of the NFL. PJax hasn't done shit without Jordan or Shaq, Belichick hasn't done shit without Brady and that defense.

IMO, I think Belichick has more to do with Brady's success than Brady affecting Belichick's success. Belichick has a fantastic system. I've never seen someone that simply hits wide open recievers every single play, and almost never has to actually throw into coverage, or fit passes into tight spots. While I think it was absolutely stupid of Reggie Nelson to say what he said about Brady, I can understand, because all he does is hit wide open guys. He doesn't often impress anyone with throws he makes or anything like that. He isn't anywhere close to being as good of a playmaker as guys like Manning, Romo, and McNabb. When things break down, those guys are far better at making plays than Brady. Fortunately for Brady, things rarely break down for him as his line is absolutely superb. Thus, we end up seeing him hitting wide open guys over and over. Whatever system Belichick is running is freakin amazing.

[san antonio spurs]

IMO, I think Belichick has more to do with Brady's success than Brady affecting Belichick's success. Belichick has a fantastic system. I've never seen someone that simply hits wide open recievers every single play, and almost never has to actually throw into coverage, or fit passes into tight spots. While I think it was absolutely stupid of Reggie Nelson to say what he said about Brady, I can understand, because all he does is hit wide open guys. He doesn't often impress anyone with throws he makes or anything like that. He isn't anywhere close to being as good of a playmaker as guys like Manning, Romo, and McNabb. When things break down, those guys are far better at making plays than Brady. Fortunately for Brady, things rarely break down for him as his line is absolutely superb. Thus, we end up seeing him hitting wide open guys over and over. Whatever system Belichick is running is freakin amazing.
so you'd take those guys ahead of Brady if you were building a team :lol

[monosylab1k]

IMO, I think Belichick has more to do with Brady's success than Brady affecting Belichick's success. Belichick has a fantastic system. I've never seen someone that simply hits wide open recievers every single play, and almost never has to actually throw into coverage, or fit passes into tight spots. While I think it was absolutely stupid of Reggie Nelson to say what he said about Brady, I can understand, because all he does is hit wide open guys. He doesn't often impress anyone with throws he makes or anything like that. He isn't anywhere close to being as good of a playmaker as guys like Manning, Romo, and McNabb. When things break down, those guys are far better at making plays than Brady. Fortunately for Brady, things rarely break down for him as his line is absolutely superb. Thus, we end up seeing him hitting wide open guys over and over. Whatever system Belichick is running is freakin amazing.
yeah that first TD throw to Ben Watson where he pointed Ben to exactly where the ball was going to be placed, that's just a talentless hack hitting a wide open guy.

let's not forget that nobody in the NFL moves in the pocket as well as brady either. the line is solid, but brady buys himself alot of time as well, and he doesn't have to scramble & limit his options by doing so.

[monosylab1k]

the majority of last season brady never had a wide open guy, he had to make great throws all year long. he led them to a 12-4 record with reche fucking caldwell as their #1 option. to say all he does it hit wide open guys is stupid.

[stretch]

so you'd take those guys ahead of Brady if you were building a team :lol
actually i never once said that. I just said they are better at making things happen when stuff breaks down.

[san antonio spurs]

actually i never once said that. I just said they are better at making things happen when stuff breaks down.
you said Brady was a product of the system, you said those guys were better playmakers, hence common sense telling me you'd choose those guys if you were building a team.
So, who would you take?

[slayermin]

Turner is a conservative coach when his teams have leads and Belichick is not.

As an offensive mind, Turner > Belichick.

I might be wrong about this, but the offensive system in place in New England originated with Parcells and Bledsoe. It has probably evolved over the years since Brady is a better quarterback and they have had a couple of different offensive coordinators since Belichick took over.

But really, this was the first season they had a juggernaut offense. They won their last three Super Bowls because of defense, imo.

[slayermin]

Walsh and Landry both have 3. Gibbs has 3 as well, but with 3 very different rosters, which may make him (the first time around) the most impressive of all.

Landry has two.

[K-State Spur]

Landry has two.

Ouch, you're right. For some reason, I always think that they won in '75-'76.

[stretch]

you said Brady was a product of the system, you said those guys were better playmakers, hence common sense telling me you'd choose those guys if you were building a team.
So, who would you take?
I'll take Manning over Brady for sure. Romo and McNabb have things that they are better than Brady at, and vice versa, but overall, I'd probably take Brady, since he has proven that he is capable of getting the job done. I think that Romo and McNabb are more gifted and talented though. Carson Palmer too.

[san antonio spurs]

I'll take Manning over Brady for sure. Romo and McNabb have things that they are better than Brady at, and vice versa, but overall, I'd probably take Brady, since he has proven that he is capable of getting the job done. I think that Romo and McNabb are more gifted and talented though. Carson Palmer too.
now you are getting ridiculous. What do you call gifted and talented??
arm strenght? vision? intangibles? football IQ? accuracy? moving in the pocket? clutch? scramble? should I even add leadership (in some sense can add to the talent) in which of those categories that define a QB are Romo and Mcnabb better. Hence throw in Manning.

[Slinkyman]

now you are getting ridiculous. What do you call gifted and talented??
arm strenght? vision? intangibles? football IQ? accuracy? moving in the pocket? clutch? scramble? should I even add leadership (in some sense can add to the talent) in which of those categories that define a QB are Romo and Mcnabb better. Hence throw in Manning.

Mcnabb and Romo are better at choking in the playoffs that's for sure. Game ending INTs? they're better at that also.

[FromWayDowntown]

What makes Brady great -- better than Peyton Manning, in my book -- is the same thing that made Joe Montana great. Brady, like Montana, is about the best QB going at reading coverages and adjusting his decision-making based on those coverages.

Peyton gets all sorts of acclaim for his audibles and his fake audibles, but I'm convinced that Peyton either reads coverages and decides to go ahead with unwarranted throws or sometimes confuses everyone with his changes at the line and ends up having to force throws into coverage. In any event, I'm sure that Brady reads coverage better than Peyton. I don't think it's just some schematic thing that leads Brady to making so many uncontested throws -- it's his ability to read down through his progressions to find the guy that is open. Since he took over the starting job in NE, Brady's unmatched ability to read coverage is, I think, what drives that Patriots offense.

Questioning Brady's ability seems really odd to me given that he nearly took that team to Super Bowl XLI with a receiving corps consisting of Troy Brown, Jabar Gaffney, Reche Caldwell, and Chad Jackson. I'm not sure Peyton Manning would have had the same level of success with a rag-tag group like that.

[slayermin]

What makes Brady great -- better than Peyton Manning, in my book -- is the same thing that made Joe Montana great. Brady, like Montana, is about the best QB going at reading coverages and adjusting his decision-making based on those coverages.

Ken Anderson was pretty good too.

I really can't put Brady into Montana's class unless he's wins it all. If he finishes off this season with a ring, then no one can deny he's the best.

[bostonguy]

What makes Brady great -- better than Peyton Manning, in my book -- is the same thing that made Joe Montana great. Brady, like Montana, is about the best QB going at reading coverages and adjusting his decision-making based on those coverages.

Peyton gets all sorts of acclaim for his audibles and his fake audibles, but I'm convinced that Peyton either reads coverages and decides to go ahead with unwarranted throws or sometimes confuses everyone with his changes at the line and ends up having to force throws into coverage. In any event, I'm sure that Brady reads coverage better than Peyton. I don't think it's just some schematic thing that leads Brady to making so many uncontested throws -- it's his ability to read down through his progressions to find the guy that is open. Since he took over the starting job in NE, Brady's unmatched ability to read coverage is, I think, what drives that Patriots offense.

Questioning Brady's ability seems really odd to me given that he nearly took that team to Super Bowl XLI with a receiving corps consisting of Troy Brown, Jabar Gaffney, Reche Caldwell, and Chad Jackson. I'm not sure Peyton Manning would have had the same level of success with a rag-tag group like that.


I might have to consider Brady one of the greatest athletes EVER after he gets his 4th ring. I am talking in the class of Jordan, Ruth, etc etc. No doubt he is the best quarterback to ever play the game. Brady is one of a kind.

[SAtown]

I might have to consider Brady one of the greatest athletes EVER after he gets his 4th ring. I am talking in the class of Jordan, Ruth, etc etc. No doubt he is the best quarterback to ever play the game. Brady is one of a kind.

Ruth an athlete? :rollin :rollin

[FromWayDowntown]

I'd like to see Belicheck win with a different corp of players before I would anoint him the best in NFL history. However, if he gets 4 with an unprecedented undefeated season (all during the salary cap era), the argument against him becomes very difficult.

I don't know who I'd put at #1 right now. Noll has 4, but it was the same team winning them all. Walsh and Landry both have 3. Gibbs has 3 as well, but with 3 very different rosters, which may make him (the first time around) the most impressive of all.

I think one thing that traditionally counts against Gibbs, rightly or wrongly, is that fact that his teams won 2 of those Super Bowls in seasons affected by labor-stoppages. Also, Gibbs takes a hit, I think, because he had a team reach the Super Bowl and get absolutely whacked, which never happened to teams coached by Noll or Walsh (or even Landry) and hasn't happened to Belichick.

I would agree that Noll's accomplishment is a tad overrated, too, because of the roster specifics of his team's run. During the Steelers' 4 Super Bowl runs, as I understand things, there was only 1 player (Preston Pearson) who had ever played for another professional franchise. Noll dealt only with players his club drafted, during a time when you could draft players and stash them for several years to develop them. Ultimately, for Noll, there were 10 guys who started Super Bowl IX who also started Super Bowl XIV (Gerry Mullins, Jon Kolb, Rocky Bleier, Terry Bradshaw, Franco Harris, Joe Greene, L.C. Greenwood, Jack Lambert, Mel Blount, and J.T. Thomas -- and it would have been 11 if Jack Ham hadn't been hurt for the last Steelers win of that era). And there were at least 19 players who were members of all 4 Super Bowl winners (those 11, plus Donnie Shell, Sam Davis, John Stallworth, Lynn Swann, Steve Furness, Randy Grossman, Loren Toews, and Dwight White).

By contrast, if Belichick should get another title this year, I count only only 7 players on this roster that were on the roster for Super Bowl XXXVI: Matt Light, Tom Brady, Richard Seymour, Mike Vrabel, Tedi Bruschi, Kevin Faulk, and Larry Izzo. Of those, only 5 are starters, so the Pats have made their run in the face of some pretty significant roster turnover.

For what it's worth, Gibbs had 6 players who played on all 4 of his Super Bowl teams: Jeff Bostic, Joe Jacoby, Don Warren, Art Monk (didn't play in SB 17), Monte Coleman, and Russ Grimm.

[stretch]

Questioning Brady's ability seems really odd to me given that he nearly took that team to Super Bowl XLI with a receiving corps consisting of Troy Brown, Jabar Gaffney, Reche Caldwell, and Chad Jackson. I'm not sure Peyton Manning would have had the same level of success with a rag-tag group like that.
It's also much easier when you have a defense to back you up like Brady has had all these years, consistently giving him 50 yard fields to work with, unlike Manning who has constantly been forced to drive the entire field and was forced to score touchdowns because his defense could never stop anyone good. Put Brady on the Colts for all these years, and I doubt he even wins one Superbowl with those shitty and overrated defenses that Manning had to deal with. IMO, the reason their defenses the past few years have looked good, is because Manning does such a good job of scoring touchdowns with ease, that other teams, especially crappy teams, feel that they MUST pass the ball just to keep up with the Colts, and when you have teams that don't have a good passing offense, then that leads to lots of mistakes, 3-and-outs, sacks, and interceptions, which boosted the Colts defensive stats. The Colts are very similar IMO to the Phoenix Suns, in that their offense boosts their defensive stats, but when they play quality teams that aren't intimidated by them, then they can run into problems.

I also think that is the problem with the Patriots this year, and if they had to face a team with a good offense like the Colts, I don't think that they would have been able to get away with outscoring the crap out of their opponents like they did all year against a bunch of crappy teams. But once they played teams who just went out and played their game, they had some trouble and nearly lost several games (Colts, Ravens, Eagles, Giants, Cowboys)

[stretch]

I might have to consider Brady one of the greatest athletes EVER after he gets his 4th ring. I am talking in the class of Jordan, Ruth, etc etc. No doubt he is the best quarterback to ever play the game. Brady is one of a kind.
Sorry, he cannot be in a class with Jordan. Jordan is in a class of his own in the sports world. By far, the most dominant athlete in any sport, EVER.