I am a REPUBPLICAN, why aren't you?

[inconvertible]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54PlSAK1zfU&feature=related


mccain, romney and all the others are just another form of democrat.

[JoeChalupa]

That is a good thing.

[Mavtek]

I don't like to identify myself with groups. I'm an individual, luckily for me in Texas I can vote without belonging to a particular party.

[JoeChalupa]

I don't vote straight ticket but for who I like.

[xrayzebra]

This is why Monica is a Republican:

http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z273/xrayzebra/Vote2008.jpg

[ClingingMars]

yet another ron paul nut

-Mars

[inconvertible]

^yet another apathatic voter who doesn't understand the constitution.

I paid $26000 in income and social security taxes.......I wish I could keep that money and pay some bills......instead of some dumb ass war and millions on welfare.

[ClingingMars]

^yet another apathatic voter who doesn't understand the constitution.

I paid $26000 in income and social security taxes.......I wish I could keep that money and pay some bills......instead of some dumb ass war and millions on welfare.

The war is not just some DUMBASS IDEA. THOSE MEN ARE OUT THERE PROTECTING YOUR GODDAMN FUCKING FREEDOM AND YOU DON'T GIVE A SHIT!

/rant

Now, I am a Huckabee supporter, and support the FairTax, which would eliminate those income and SS taxes. But we CANNOT PULL OUT OF IRAQ UNTIL THE JOB IS FUCKING DONE!

-Mars

[Mavtek]

The war is not just some DUMBASS IDEA. THOSE MEN ARE OUT THERE PROTECTING YOUR GODDAMN FUCKING FREEDOM AND YOU DON'T GIVE A SHIT!

/rant

Now, I am a Huckabee supporter, and support the FairTax, which would eliminate those income and SS taxes. But we CANNOT PULL OUT OF IRAQ UNTIL THE JOB IS FUCKING DONE!

-Mars

People like you are why this country is in deep shit. You seriously believe, with hindsight, that the war was not a dumbass idea. Lets see, Trillions spent, thousands lost, all for what? What have we done except ruin a country? Where are the weapons of mass destruction? Are the people of Iraq safer, or liberated? I believe it was Petraeus who even said we are not safer for being over there, and it was a mistake to go in.

Yep fucking scary you don't think the war was the biggest fuck up since fucking Vietnam. You don't attack someone if they haven't done anything to you.

[01Snake]

I paid $26000 in income and social security taxes.......

Wow! Your ballin' :rolleyes

[bostonguy]

Now, I am a Huckabee supporter, and support the FairTax, which would eliminate those income and SS taxes. But we CANNOT PULL OUT OF IRAQ UNTIL THE JOB IS FUCKING DONE!

-Mars


Which will probably be in the year of 4239. That country is such a mess. Regardless of what people think about the war in Iraq, it's not like the soldiers had a choice. They were given orders and had to follow them.

[boutons_]

define "fucking done"

can't do it? won't do it? I'm not surprised.

[GaryJohnston]

fucking done = Hillary

[2centsworth]

I love how the democrats and ron paul supporters in this thread have no clue when it comes to dollars. One says we're spending millions on welfare and another says we are spending trillions on the war. More like 50 trillion on welfare and 800 billion on the war.

[Heath Ledger]

you paid $26000 in taxes and you are whining? you are obviously doing okay for yoursel having to pay so much. quit whining there are a lot of people who wish they had to pay $26k in taxes per year.

[fyatuk]

you paid $26000 in taxes and you are whining? you are obviously doing okay for yoursel having to pay so much. quit whining there are a lot of people who wish they had to pay $26k in taxes per year.

LOL. I don't even GROSS $26k a year. All in all, I still pay about 10-12k in all the various taxes though.

[DarkReign]

I love how the democrats and ron paul supporters in this thread have no clue when it comes to dollars. One says we're spending millions on welfare and another says we are spending trillions on the war. More like 50 trillion on welfare and 800 billion on the war.

You know that 90% of all statistics are made up, right?

Well, you obviously had a fantasy moment.

http://waysandmeans.house.gov/legacy/humres/107cong/6-14-01/rectorinsert/rector0307cht1.jpg

Since I was skimming, I couldnt find graphs/charts on the cost of our "War on Terra".

But I did find an article from CSM on the cost circa November 2006. At the time, we were at $507 billion total cost. Seeing as we had been at "war" since 2001, thats ~$100 billion a year and ever-increasing.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1121/p01s03-usmi.html

So really, welfare costs the nation 4x as much as out war on terror per year. That gap will close, Im sure in the coming years as the scope of American imperialism expands.

Side note: the War on Terror is the most expensive war in terms of $$$ in the history of this country...thats adjusted for inflation, btw. And it isnt even close to ending....coincidence?

[DarkReign]

LOL. I don't even GROSS $26k a year. All in all, I still pay about 10-12k in all the various taxes though.

Get a new job, then. Skill up, son.

[Gordon Gekko]

26K in taxes is petty cash. I make more than enough that I don't give a shit about paying my fair share. I like cheap labor.

[2centsworth]

Are you smart enough to notice and accept the truth. If you are then just read what the Comptroller General has to say. btw, i never said annual spending. The PV of your social programs are in the 50trillion range. If every american sold every asset we have in put it in one huge pot, we would only come up with 50 trillion or so.

here's a video link! Your focus on war spending is like worrying about the cable bill when you're on the verge of bankruptcy.

http://www.gao.gov/media/video/fiscal/windows/amfiscal.wmv

[DarkReign]

Are you smart enough to notice and accept the truth. If you are then just read what the Comptroller General has to say. btw, i never said annual spending. The PV of your social programs are in the 50trillion range. If every american sold every asset we have in put it in one huge pot, we would only come up with 50 trillion or so.

here's a video link! Your focus on war spending is like worrying about the cable bill when you're on the verge of bankruptcy.

http://www.gao.gov/media/video/fiscal/windows/amfiscal.wmv

Brother, I never made a claim that the war was breaking the bank. You didnt qualify your earlier statement.

Yes, the promised benefits of this government are insurmountable. But unlike this war, the bill on the social services isnt due (yet).

[inconvertible]

^yeah just don't tell me the govt fiances are in the tank until you come back from iraq and quit subsidies to foriegn countries.

[2centsworth]

Brother, I never made a claim that the war was breaking the bank. You didnt qualify your earlier statement.

Yes, the promised benefits of this government are insurmountable. But unlike this war, the bill on the social services isnt due (yet).
yes they are because our total deficit, not debt, is 700 billion per year. 600 billion more than military spending.

[fyatuk]

Get a new job, then. Skill up, son.

No matter what job I get, I'll still be disgusted by how much I have to pay in taxes.

But as soon as I take care of a couple things, I should be able to get a job that will double my salary ;)

[Extra Stout]

Are you smart enough to notice and accept the truth. If you are then just read what the Comptroller General has to say. btw, i never said annual spending. The PV of your social programs are in the 50trillion range. If every american sold every asset we have in put it in one huge pot, we would only come up with 50 trillion or so.

here's a video link! Your focus on war spending is like worrying about the cable bill when you're on the verge of bankruptcy.

http://www.gao.gov/media/video/fiscal/windows/amfiscal.wmv
I think the big collapse happens around 2020.

[BradLohaus]

I think the big collapse happens around 2020.

Sounds about right.

Forget gold and silver... go long on SPAM and whiskey.

[Spam]

Sounds about right.

Forget gold and silver... go long on SPAM and whiskey.


:smokin

[inconvertible]

I think the big collapse happens around 2020.


they are driving the dollar down until we don't care if we chang to the amero.

[Holt's Cat]

Now, I am a Huckabee supporter, and support the FairTax, which would eliminate those income and SS taxes.

-Mars

3 Card Monte, nothing more.

[Holt's Cat]

I paid $26000 in income and social security taxes.......I wish I could keep that money and pay some bills......instead of some dumb ass war and millions on welfare.

$45K here.

[Wild Cobra]

LOL. I don't even GROSS $26k a year. All in all, I still pay about 10-12k in all the various taxes though.
I'd be curious how you manage that. If your gross for 2007 was $26k then filing single one would give you a federal taxable at $17,250. The tax table means you pay $2,193 for taxes. If you are a dependant for someone else, so you have no exemptions, then you get taxed on $20,650 for a tax of $2,710. Social Security and Medicare would be another $1,937 unless you pay both ends, then it's $3,874.

OK...

Worse case here, $2,710 and $3874 is $6,584. Are you saying you pay at least another $3416 in state and sales taxes?

Or...

Are you somehow paying at a professional 35% rate and paying SS/Med?

Really, I'm curious how someone making $26,000 or less pays $10,000 or more in taxes.

[fyatuk]

I'd be curious how you manage that. If your gross for 2007 was $26k then filing single one would give you a federal taxable at $17,250. The tax table means you pay $2,193 for taxes. If you are a dependant for someone else, so you have no exemptions, then you get taxed on $20,650 for a tax of $2,710. Social Security and Medicare would be another $1,937 unless you pay both ends, then it's $3,874.


You're not including ALL the taxes. I lose about $2k for SS & Medicare, a little over $2k for income tax (after I get my return), about $2k for property tax, about $1k a year in sales tax.

Then there's the gas tax, various excise taxes on products I use, vehicle registration (okay, that's a state fee, not really a tax, but I include it), etc, that easily adds up to a few thousand a year. It's pathetic how many things we pay the various governments for the right to use.

[inconvertible]

I am only talking ss/federal income tax.

[Homeland Security]

they are driving the dollar down until we don't care if we chang to the amero.
We'll be sending some people out to your place of residence to educate you on the non-existence of the amero.

[Homeland Security]

I think the big collapse happens around 2020.
Keep talking and you won't be around to worry about it.

[fyatuk]

I am only talking ss/federal income tax.

I'm not. Most people do and never see the whole issue. Even someone like me easily pays 1/3 to 1/2 of my gross pay in governmnet taxes and fees. A few years ago it was worse. In 2001 or so I payed over half my income in the various taxes and fees throughout the government.

[Holt's Cat]

You're not including ALL the taxes. I lose about $2k for SS & Medicare, a little over $2k for income tax (after I get my return), about $2k for property tax, about $1k a year in sales tax.

Then there's the gas tax, various excise taxes on products I use, vehicle registration (okay, that's a state fee, not really a tax, but I include it), etc, that easily adds up to a few thousand a year. It's pathetic how many things we pay the various governments for the right to use.


Think about this, the overall tax burden for many American families requires both spouses to work, someone to carry two jobs, etc... For those with children, that limits the time spent for those kids with at least one parent. Who knows what social pathologies and family strife that causes? Yeah, I know, the government in its infinite wisdom bestows child care credits and what not to lessen that burden. So families have to work more to send more $ to Washington and then hope to get some of it back in a year. Because the people are too stupid to take care of themselves. Which of course is the main idea behind SS and Medicare.

Sure, some taxes are needed so that government can provide the essentials for our society to function, but we're way beyond that at this point.

As for gas taxes, if we want free and open public roads then that's the price we pay. Is it excessive? Probably. The government makes more $ off a gallon of gasoline sold than the firm who sold it.

Property taxes are an issue, such as in a state like Texas, but the alternative is a state income tax. I don't know about you but taking care of the IRS is enough of a hassle for me.

What you have to ask yourself is how did we get to this point with the federal government? Why do people have to spend a significant portion of their year not working for themselves, but working so that the geniuses in DC have Monopoly money to play with? Better yet, why do we continue to re-elect them and promote them to more prestigious posts?

[inconvertible]

We'll be sending some people out to your place of residence to educate you on the non-existence of the amero.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYGrn0hZlCQ


:reading :wakeup

[mikejones99]

it does NOT take two incomes, that is fucking bullshit

[Holt's Cat]

Sure it does.


Federal, state and local taxes claimed 39.0 percent of a median two-income family’s total income ($68,605), down from 40.9 percent in 1997 and down from the historical high of 41.5 percent in 1996. The median one-income family’s tax burden was 37.6 percent of its 1998 income ($36,579), down from a high of 38.6 percent in 1997.

link (http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/137.html)

[Wild Cobra]

You're not including ALL the taxes. I lose about $2k for SS & Medicare, a little over $2k for income tax (after I get my return), about $2k for property tax, about $1k a year in sales tax.

Then there's the gas tax, various excise taxes on products I use, vehicle registration (okay, that's a state fee, not really a tax, but I include it), etc, that easily adds up to a few thousand a year. It's pathetic how many things we pay the various governments for the right to use.
You're right, and I forgot about proprty taxes. I don't consider the fees as a tax, but may as well becase it becomes the governments to spend. Your numbers took me by surprise because I calculated my taxes at my previous job at just over $10.00 per hour. That however was just state, federal, and payroll taxes. I hate to think how much it is inclufding the rest. In some ways I'm glad I don't make as much as I used to. I would have to recalculate, but I think those same taxes are down to between $7 to $8 per hour.

Are you an advocate of the Far Tax?

[BradLohaus]

We'll be sending some people out to your place of residence to educate you on the non-existence of the amero.

:lmao Man you've had me cracking up today. :clap

[fyatuk]

You're right, and I forgot about proprty taxes. I don't consider the fees as a tax, but may as well becase it becomes the governments to spend. Your numbers took me by surprise because I calculated my taxes at my previous job at just over $10.00 per hour. That however was just state, federal, and payroll taxes. I hate to think how much it is inclufding the rest. In some ways I'm glad I don't make as much as I used to. I would have to recalculate, but I think those same taxes are down to between $7 to $8 per hour.

Are you an advocate of the Far Tax?

You mean the whole national sales tax thing? Hell no. The required rate is too high and I think sales taxes in general are bad for the poor and especially low middle class. I'd rather see a no-deduction income tax rate with a sliding scale (0% on first 20k, 10% on next hundred (20001-120k), etc, or something similar). Get rid of the foreign holding exceptions as well. A small national sales tax (1-2%) would be acceptable to help out.

SS payroll tax needs to be reduced, the cap removed, and allow people to shift some of their SS into 401(k) or IRAs (only theirs, employers still goes to the SSA). Significantly reduce benefits guaranteed to younger workers. I guarantee SS would be less needed within 10-20 years, since even minimum wage workers could save without it costing them anything, plus the reduction in rate would automatically give the lower wage workers a raise.

I do think TX should raise the sales tax limits to reduce property tax rates, as long as food items are exempt, and tax free day still happens. The gas tax should be raised significantly (more than doubled in my opinion).

Above all, reduce the government, period. Half the programs the federal government runs are borderline in the constitutionality.

[Wild Cobra]

You mean the whole national sales tax thing? Hell no. The required rate is too high and I think sales taxes in general are bad for the poor and especially low middle class.

That's not true. If you take the time to learn about it, most prices will remain about the same. The rate is 23% (or 22%?.) There are already embedded taxes in all products that would be eliminated. The average products would be approximately 18.7% lower with the embedded taxes removes. A $100.00 product now sells for $81.30. Add the 23% tax, and you get back to $100.00.

This in no way hurts the middle and lower class. In fact, if necessities are excluded from being taxes, it would be a savings to everyone on their necessity purchases.

Now they actually talk of a "prebate" which I would like to see removed. Rather than editing, I am wron a bit on the above formulas. They do cost a little more, but it's not 23% more because there is removed embeded taxes. Just not quite 18.7%.



I'd rather see a no-deduction income tax rate with a sliding scale (0% on first 20k, 10% on next hundred (20001-120k), etc, or something similar). Get rid of the foreign holding exceptions as well. A small national sales tax (1-2%) would be acceptable to help out.

If we are going to keep the income tax, I want a flat tax with no deductible. I don't want two systems. Either a consumption (sales) tax, or income tax. Not both.



SS payroll tax needs to be reduced, the cap removed, and allow people to shift some of their SS into 401(k) or IRAs (only theirs, employers still goes to the SSA).

The flat tax eliminates payroll taxes. They are part of the 23%.



Significantly reduce benefits guaranteed to younger workers. I guarantee SS would be less needed within 10-20 years, since even minimum wage workers could save without it costing them anything, plus the reduction in rate would automatically give the lower wage workers a raise.

I don't want to see SS reduced except for means testing. We should find a point of income a person has and tell them up to X dollars you get full benefits, up to X+Y dollars, you get zero. Reduce the payments as X approaches X+Y in a linear form.



I do think TX should raise the sales tax limits to reduce property tax rates, as long as food items are exempt, and tax free day still happens. The gas tax should be raised significantly (more than doubled in my opinion).

I don't know about Texas, but in general, I think property taxes are too high anywhere I've seen. I also think that someone retired should be exempt from paying property taxes on the first few hundred thousand of their residence value, by market of course. Say an average home is valued at $250k in a city. Make it slightly higher, maybe 120%, or $300,000 the point where a retired home owner (also 65 or older) is exempt from paying property taxes. If he lives in a $400,000 home, then he pays taxes on the excess, as if the house was assessed at $100,000.

As for food, that's what I mean by necessities, along with stuff like regular clothing, toilet paper, tooth past, etc.



Above all, reduce the government, period. Half the programs the federal government runs are borderline in the constitutionality.

I wouldn't even say borderline. I call most programs flat out unconstitutional.

Promote the general welfare does not mean welfare. It means to create an environment where the majority of the people can flourish. Out government violates that in so many ways.

Find a dictionary a century old, or older, and look up the key words and phrases in the constitution like warrant, militia, welfare, etc. It's real shocking how those words were perceived then vs. now. I've put a few words from my 1906 dictionary into a file:


Commonwealth, n.

1. The whole body of people in a state; the body of politic; the public.
2. A republican state; specifically, the form of government which existed in England from the death of Charles I. in 1649 to the abdication of Richard Cromwell in 1659.
faithfully

In a faithful manner; loyally; sincerely; honestly; truthfully.
Reasonable:

1. Having the faculty or reason; endowed with reason; as, a reasonable being.

2. Governed by reason; being under the influence of reason; thinking, speaking, or acting rationally or according to the dictates of reason; as, the measure must satisfy all reasonable men.

3. Conformable or agreeable to reason; just; rational.

4. Not immoderate; not excessive; not unjust; tolerable; moderate.

Reasonable doubt; in criminal law, that condition of mind in which there is a sincere doubt as to whether a person charged with a crime has been proven guilty.
Unreasonable:

Not reasonable; exceeding the bounds of reason; immoderate; exorbitant; irrational.
Warrant:

1. An act, instrument, or obligation, by which one person authorizes another to do something which he has not otherwise a right to do; an act or instrument investing one with a right or authority, and thus securing him from loss or damage; authority; commission; sanction.

2. A legal instrument ordering a judicial act, such as an arrest, search, etc., to be executed by an officer of the court.

3. A writing that authorizes a person to receive money or other things; a license.

4. The certificate of appointment given to a noncommissioned officer or the Army or Navy.

5. A voucher; that which attests or proves; an attestation.

6. That which secures; security; guarantee, pledge; assurance given.

I should add welfare, and a few other words to my text file. Shouldn't I?

[fyatuk]

That's not true. If you take the time to learn about it, most prices will remain about the same. The rate is 23% (or 22%?.) There are already embedded taxes in all products that would be eliminated. The average products would be approximately 18.7% lower with the embedded taxes removes. A $100.00 product now sells for $81.30. Add the 23% tax, and you get back to $100.00.


This is a mathematical impossibility. If you remove the embedded taxes and replace it with a sales tax to get the same price, you have the same revenue. The only way the federal government gets more revenue is if the embedded taxes are state or local, in which case the state/local governments would have to raise their rates to make up that revenue...

If you also remove income tax, you lose revenue. Payroll and income taxes are the substantive majority of the federal governments income, so you would have to significantly raise the amount of tax you get through consumptive means to break even.

I do prefer a scaled income tax simply because a higher burden should be placed on the rich. A true flat income tax rate would place too high a burden on the poor.

[Wild Cobra]

Fyatuk, if you looked another two paragraphs before responding, I said those numbers were wrong. I just didn't take the time to correct it, rather, I added the paragraph. I know it is revenue neutral, but not so simple as my first incorrect example.

Consider the cost savings of a zero tax on necessities for low income people, only paying slightly more for items that are not necessities. Isn't that the right way to change things.

More revenue is also generated for the offset because we are now taxing imported goods. On top of that, exports are cheaper. It affects the trade deficit in our favor. That in turn will return better, higher paying manufacturing jobs to America.

There are far more good points to the fair tax than the few bad points that can be found.

[fyatuk]

Consider the cost savings of a zero tax on necessities for low income people, only paying slightly more for items that are not necessities. Isn't that the right way to change things.


I seriously doubt the math on that. If you don't tax necessities, you'll have to pay significantly higher on non-necessities to make up for it. You'll end up stifling non-necessity spending, which would be bad for the economy. Overall there'd be no net gain for the poor over eliminating income taxes of poverty line and below workers.


More revenue is also generated for the offset because we are now taxing imported goods. On top of that, exports are cheaper. It affects the trade deficit in our favor. That in turn will return better, higher paying manufacturing jobs to America.

That's just plain BS. That's relying on other countries to maintain the status quo on their end. Taxing imports would require backing out of our multitude of FTA's, which will result on other countries taxing imports from the US. Our exports would not suddenly be cheaper in other countries, and in fact our exports would almost assuredly decline, possibly sharply. Manufacturing would almost definitely splinter into US located manufacturies only making goods for the US market, while goods made for other markets would still be made out of the country to avoid the import taxes the other countries installed in response. It's a protectionist policy that would shelter the US from the effects of other markets, but limit the growth potential.

Even if the manufacturies did return en masse, US goods would still be overpriced compared to other countries (unless import taxes are inexcusibly high) thanks to the over-powerful union culture in the manufacturing sector. In addition, you remove a significant source of income from the poorer portions of the world, relegating entires countries into poverty and starvation, which is just absurd.


There are far more good points to the fair tax than the few bad points that can be found.

That would depend on the economic theories you rely on. Just like whether you believe minimum wage is more effective at fighting poverty than lowering taxes. Or whether socialism is better than capitalism. I've seen very little in the "Fair Tax" that I would deem a good idea.