Suns and Heat in Talks of Marion/Shaq Trade

[E20]

The days of high scoring in Phoenix are over.

Shaq can play defense.
Yeah on Oberto, but not Tim Duncan.

[T Park]

The best option against Shaq on the Spurs is probably *gulp* Francisco Elson. Elson wouldn't be able to stop Shaq very often but he'd at least make him run.


Well the last time IIRC Elson outrebounded him 14-3 and actually muscled him up alright.

Elson MAY, MAY, have saved his job on this team just because of this trade.

[sabar]

Let's see:

Nash = No defense
Bell = Defense
Hill = No defense
Amare = No defense
Shaq = no defense

Even if Shaq poses a nightmare threat on the O, the Spurs should put up 1000 points a night against a 1 on 5 man D.I wouldn't say no defense exactly, he averages the same blocks that Tim does and his weight alone makes him harder to back down in the post than most centers.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

The days of high scoring in Phoenix are over.

Shaq can play defense.
I don't know about the accusations that Shaq doesn't play defense.

He's not as fundamentally sound defensively as Duncan, but Shaq is still a good player to funnel players towards...Not to mention Shaq knows how to pass out of a double team as well Duncan. I think he's going to do well in giving Phoenix their half court game, while letting Amare do all the inside scoring.

[baseline bum]

You mean give Riley a raise. Booting an aging Shaq and saving 60 mil, all while getting a decent PG and Marion.

As it stands now, Miami's pick will be at worst #4. I know that won't get you Al Horford like this year, but that's still a hell of a piece to build with in the worst case.

[T Park]

but not Tim Duncan.

If Duncan doesn't upfake and take it at him, then yes he can.

[E20]

I wouldn't say no defense exactly, he averaged the same blocks that Tim does and his weight alone makes him harder to back down in the post than most centers.
If I was Tim Duncan being guarded on Shaq I would pop out 15 feet on the wing, when and if Shaq comes out, blow by him off the dribble and take it strong to the rim or pass to the open man if a double team comes out. If Shaq doesn't come out, I'd expect Tim to shoot the jumper every possesion.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Not completely off topic, but if Shaq is traded, how would it affect the ATL/MIA 1 minute do-over?

[Kori Ellis]

You mean give Riley a raise. Booting an aging Shaq and saving 60 mil, all while getting a decent PG and Marion.

If Marion is a bitch in Miami like he was in Phoenix, Riley is going to go crazy. :lol

[T Park]

You need at least one more big man to bring 6 fouls.

A Mark Bryant type.

Someone to beat the shit out of him and push him out forcing bad shots and someone to guard him without bringing a double off a shooter.

[timvp]

Not completely off topic, but if Shaq is traded, how would it affect the ATL/MIA 1 minute do-over?:lol Good question. That'd be classic Shaq goes back to Miami just for the do-over :rollin

[T Park]

Not completely off topic, but if Shaq is traded, how would it affect the ATL/MIA 1 minute do-over?


Wow great question....

[T Park]

Miami would Shaq Marion D Wade.

Well they'd get into double digit wins :lol

[T Park]

If Marion is a bitch in Miami like he was in Phoenix, Riley is going to go crazy.

I'm shocked Riley hasn't resigned by now.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

:lol Good question. That'd be classic Shaq goes back to Miami just for the do-over :rollin

Logically, he'd have to, right?

This trade has multiple trainwrecks written all over it.

:lol

[ludda]

That pick MUST be protected. This was more of a desperation move by the Suns...I think RonMexico posted the Insider article on the General Sports forum thread and it said that the Suns were afraid Mavs were getting Snaq and made a move.

[T Park]

I think RonMexico posted the Insider article on the General Sports forum thread and it said that the Suns were afraid Mavs were getting Snaq and made a move

Pretty good panic trade.

[timvp]

Shaq on the Suns is scary. Shaq on the Mavs with AJ in his ear 24/7 is damn scary.

Thanks, Kerr :tu

[T Park]

Shaq on the Suns is scary. Shaq on the Mavs with AJ in his ear 24/7 is damn scary.

Thanks, Kerr :tu

Yeah if Shaq went to Dallas, you pretty much would've given them the ring.

Shaq would've been the low post presence they've desperately needed, and Dirk would've been so scared of being bitch slapped by O'Neal, he would've actually driven the ball to the hole a bit more often.

[baseline bum]

I haven't heard anything about this pick other than a guy who claimed he heard it on Phoenix sportstalk radio. I don't buy for a second that Miami would send their lotto pick away for a guy they probably don't want.

[T Park]

Do you know how long it takes to get in shape? At least 3 months and Shaq isn't in a shape and he hasn't been in shape for over 2 years now..so being traded to the Suns he is going on a strict diet? Lets be realistic here...this is Shaq not Karl Malone that were are talking about! Shaq has always been lazy and that is why Kobe called him a fat ass! He has no work ethic..sorry stupid trade period



Sorry but thats what I thought, but O'Neal has guarded Duncan well.

Only one time has he gotten agressive with him and that was in 03 game 6 and took it at him.

Other than that, he's been passive.

[T Park]

And the Spurs also have Manu and Parker so if Duncan is having an off game they can run their offense through those two?

And get their shots blocked by shaq?

Ok.

[T Park]

omeone please that thinks the Shaq trade was great for the Suns please enlighten me a little about Shaq's work ethic?

Look at 05 and 06 how well he played when he was motivated...

[T Park]

Laugh all you want.

Look at how a semi motivated shaq did in 04 against Ginobili and Parker.

[E20]

Timvp/Kori has to bookmark/favorite this thread and once June rolls over and Spurs sweep Suns, they have to bump it so I can laugh at this.

[baseline bum]

Sorry but thats what I thought, but O'Neal has guarded Duncan well.

Only one time has he gotten agressive with him and that was in 03 game 6 and took it at him.

Other than that, he's been passive.

WTF are you talking about, TPark? Duncan was a monster in the 02 series. He dropped 35 and 25 in game 5. His teammates sucked.

Duncan was great in the '04 series until the Lakers just decided they weren't going to guard Turkoglu and Bowen in games 3-6, and threw 4 guys in the lane.

What about in 99 in game 3 when Shaq came out and told the media he was going to guard Tim Duncan and shut him down? Duncan dropped like 17 in the first quarter on Shaq, and forced LA to throw Reid/Horry/Fox back at him.

[T Park]

Right, you mean the fact that he was sitting on the Bench while Alzono finished off Dallas?

Uh no.

Shaq was in there beating the Mavericks.

[ludda]

From what I remember Shaq was pretty well -contained by the Mavs bigs in the finals 06. And that was two years ago with a "motivated" Shaq

I dont think this trade hurts the Suns but I also don't see a geriartric Shaq as the great saviour that some seem to all of a sudden think.

I guess we'll see how it plays out.

[T Park]

Duncan was great in the '04 series until the Lakers just decided they weren't going to guard Turkoglu and Bowen in games 3-6, and threw 4 guys in the lane.

Wasn't Malone guarding him?

[ludda]

Laugh all you want.

Look at how a semi motivated shaq did in 04 against Ginobili and Parker.

wow you completely flip-flopped from your earlier posts.

[baseline bum]

Laugh all you want.

Look at how a semi motivated shaq did in 04 against Ginobili and Parker.

If Hedo Turkoglu or Bruce Bowen hits a wide-open jump shot that series is over in 5.

If our shooters choke again, then the Spurs won't win.

[T Park]

WTF are you talking about, TPark? Duncan was a monster in the 02 series. He dropped 35 and 25 in game 5. His teammates sucked.

Duncan was great in the '04 series until the Lakers just decided they weren't going to guard Turkoglu and Bowen in games 3-6, and threw 4 guys in the lane.

What about in 99 in game 3 when Shaq came out and told the media he was going to guard Tim Duncan and shut him down? Duncan dropped like 17 in the first quarter on Shaq, and forced LA to throw Reid/Horry/Fox back at him.


Bum, I seriously hope and think Duncan can take Shaq.

IMO he can back him down a tad upfake and get around him and should put him in foul trouble.

He does that, the Sun's chances of beating the Spurs are even worse than they were before.

Unfortunately, I can see Shaq getting the benefit of the calls against the Spurs and being allowed to beat up on Duncan.

[T Park]

wow you completely flip-flopped from your earlier posts.

Discussion with people much smarter than myself and John Hollinger pretty much did that.

[T Park]

OK Adam Shaq will be a total nonfactor. You win.

[ludda]

It isn't one or the other. Shaq will be a factor, the key question is how much of a factor - Marion, who despite being a whiny bitch was at many times their 2/3 best player.

[sabar]

Phoenix was a guaranteed win when Amare got into early foul trouble trying to go against Duncan. If anything, they at least have a 400 pound, 20 million dollar foul sponge. Spurs should still be able to take them, especially since with Marion gone our outside shots should fall a little more. A good compliment with the Damon pickup.

[T Park]

So shaq and Marion cancel each other out in the offensive end on points..


Against the Spurs, Shaq would score more points in the playoffs than Marion.

[sabar]

factor by doing what? Please explain this to me? He doesn't play defense at all, and so he might get a couple of easy buckets who cares..how does that scare anyone on the Spurs? So shaq and Marion cancel each other out in the offensive end on points..

I want someone to explain when was the last time Shaq was a great defender?Spurs are built to destroy small ball. Shaq on the floor means Phx plays in the half-court. Half-court ball actually wins important games. Small ball just lets 8th seeds win over choking 1st seeds and subsequently get annihilated one round later against a half-court team.

Shaq isn't a great defender, but he isn't a crappy one either.

[T Park]

He is so great that Miami decided to trade him..yeah, Miami has the worst record in the NBA in the east, and we all know Wade isn't the problem!

Miami is failing because Shaq and Wade have no help....

[T Park]

he is a huge liability on the defensive end. He also gets in foul trouble. Tony and Manu can blow by him with ease. He doesn't intimidate anyone.



:lol

Wow.

[whottt]

WTF are you talking about, TPark? Duncan was a monster in the 02 series. He dropped 35 and 25 in game 5. His teammates sucked.

Eh...they doulbe teamed the crap out of him and he shot like shit in that series IIRC. Had a game with 10 TO's as well. I agree his teamates sucked...but he wasn't guarding Shaq and Shaq wasn't guarding him. That was the height of the PJ double teams in the fourth.








Duncan was great in the '04 series until the Lakers just decided they weren't going to guard Turkoglu and Bowen in games 3-6, and threw 4 guys in the lane.

And Shaq kicked our asses in that series...the only time it could truly be said he did that...because we didn't have Drob.





What about in 99 in game 3 when Shaq came out and told the media he was going to guard Tim Duncan and shut him down?


I don't remember Shaq saying that, and I wasn't on internet Spurs message boards then...although it does sound like something he would say.






Duncan dropped like 17 in the first quarter on Shaq, and forced LA to throw Reid/Horry/Fox back at him.

Hmmm...I don't remember Duncan scoring 17 in any first quarter of that series...I remember him having a few 10 point quarters though...mainly against Reid.


Then again...that was 10 years ago.


I'm not saying it didn't happen, because it damn sure could have...I just don't know if I would call a hot quarter a definitive performance.


The only time I've seen Duncan and Shaq matched up extensively for an entire game was game 6 in 03...and neither one of them did a good job of stopping the other.

[SenorSpur]

Some interesting facts about the deal..........

1.) It's not a straight up Shaq for Marion trade. It's Marion+Banks for Shaq+Miami's 1st this year
2.) PHX actually saves money by offloading Marion's 17 million and Bank's 4.1 million dollar contracts.

If Miami keeps tanking at the rate they that pick could be VERY valuable and PHX could wind up with a good piece to add to their team.


If that's the truth, the Heat are the dumbest franchise in the league. No way they give up a number one pick, when they're assured of being lottery-bound.

[kobe_bryant]

dallas is still small ball, your biggest challenge.

your small ball lineup will be needed.

I will take care of shaq and co.

[kobe_bryant]

did someone sign into tpark's account?

tpork in pages 1-12 istotally different from 13-22

wtf

[mardigan]

Spurs fans are great, KG wont help the Celts, Pau wont make any difference on the Lakers, and Shaq wont make the Suns better.
But getting Stromile Swift or Tyrus Thomas will put the Spurs over the top :lol

[JPB]

Spurs are built to destroy small ball. Shaq on the floor means Phx plays in the half-court. Half-court ball actually wins important games. Small ball just lets 8th seeds win over choking 1st seeds and subsequently get annihilated one round later against a half-court team.

Shaq isn't a great defender, but he isn't a crappy one either.

So Shaq on the court suddenly makes PHO an half court team ?

[mardigan]

So Shaq on the court suddenly makes PHO an half court team ?
They are going to give it a shot, and they have players that could excell in the half court

[sabar]

So Shaq on the court suddenly makes PHO an half court team ?If PHX tries to run-n-gun with Shaq then they are by far the dumbest organization in the league. Shaq couldn't take heavy minutes on a slow moving Miami team.

But hey, they ARE Phoenix, so it's possible they run with him and Shaq has season ending knee surgury.

[Tek_XX]

Spurs fans are great, KG wont help the Celts, Pau wont make any difference on the Lakers, and Shaq wont make the Suns better.
But getting Stromile Swift or Tyrus Thomas will put the Spurs over the top :lol

Are you a Spurs fan??

[whottt]

So Shaq on the court suddenly makes PHO an half court team ?



Having the guy that is in the argument for being the greatest half court player in NBA history, can do that for you...even when he's old. Doesn't hurt to have him paired with a two time MVP PG....

[mardigan]

Are you a Spurs fan??
Diehard, Willie Anderson jersey and all :toast

[whottt]

Spurs fans are great, KG wont help the Celts, Pau wont make any difference on the Lakers, and Shaq wont make the Suns better.
But getting Stromile Swift or Tyrus Thomas will put the Spurs over the top :lol


Well adding a star isn't always the solutiuon...

But Shaq is a proven championship player...

Honestly, there are a lot of over-rated stars that adding them really doesn't do much except take shots away from existing players...


So I get that mindset. Sometimes a role player with the skill you need will do more than adding a star that lacks those skills...



But I'd say Shaq has the skills Phoenix needs as much as any player they are likely to get...moreseo than Shawn Marion.


I mean Phoenix has a weakness with the slow down game...and Shaq definitely adresses that need. He also provides toughness and championship experience.



If they'd added Chris Webber I'd be laughing at them...even if they'd added a young Chris Webber.

[sabar]

March 9th!

[mardigan]

Well adding a star isn't always the solutiuon...

But Shaq is a proven championship player...

Honestly, there are a lot of over-rated stars that adding them really doesn't do much except take shots away from existing players...


So I get that mindset, sometiems a role player with the skill you need will do more than adding a star that lacks those skills...



But I'd say Shaq has the skills Phoenix needs as much as any player they are likely to get...moreseo than Shawn Marion.
No and I get that, sometimes adding the right role player at the right time (Nazr) is more beneficial than adding a star (Karl Malone). I just find it funny that so many Spurs fans think a guy who has been a Spur destroyer, even if he has lost a lot, has nothing to offer the arch enemy. I guess everyone forgot how good he can be when he wants to be (26, 14 and 3 blocks on 10-12 shooting THIS YEAR against the Rockets) the couple of years he has been in the East. The guy can still tear a team apart, even now, when he really wants to. Being the secong option on a team with no point guard can bring any big mans stats down drastically. Bottom line is he keeps Amare out of foul trouble, and gives Nash the biggest target of his life. This almost to me signifies a change in the way we might see the Suns in the future, and I dont like it. I liked thinking as of the Suns as I always do, as the Spurs bitches. Hopefully that wont change.

[whottt]

No and I get that, sometimes adding the right role player at the right time (Nazr) is more beneficial than adding a star (Karl Malone). I just find it funny that so many Spurs fans think a guy who has been a Spur destroyer, even if he has lost a lot, has nothing to offer the arch enemy. I guess everyone forgot how good he can be whne he wants to be the couple of years he has been in the East. The guy can still tear a team apart, even now, when he really wants to. Being the secong option on a team with no point guard can bring any big mans stats down drastically. Bottom line is he keeps Amare out of foul trouble, and gives Nash the biggest target of his life. This almost to me signifies a change in the way we might see the Suns in the future, and I dont like it. I liked thinking as of the Suns as I always do, as the Spurs bitches. Hopefully that wont change.


I agree...they dumped a Spurs bitch, for a guy who isn't a Spurs bitch....at the least.

[Bruno]

It looks like a desperate move.
I have a hard time seeing how this trade will help Suns. Even against Spurs, I'm not sure that it will help them. Parker will be happy to be defended by Hill or Nash. To me, this trade makes no sense at all for Suns.

[Slomo]

I'm coming late into this very entertaining thread.

First some highlights:


Just the fact that the Suns fans think it was a stupid trade should tell you that it was a good one. :lol & true :tu


What pisses me off is that I could have used the Heat missing the playoffs this season in Drob VS Shaq arguments for evermore.... :lol


Shit Pop might make a trade.

Or he might not.

Fuckin pop... :lmao So you're saying it's basically the same as it always is?


Exactly. Pop saying he might make a trade might mean he has sent RC to Europe to scout for the draft and disconnected the phone line. :lol OK your response is better...


Against the Spurs, Shaq would score more points in the playoffs than Marion. Hm.... Probably true.


So whom do we trade to get Rasho back?
Once again the faith of the Spurs lies at Rasho's feet :p: (you know I couldn't pass that one up, don't you)



Anyway here's my take.

I don't think regular season Shaq is something we should be worried about, but come playoffs he's a different problem. Just to stroke his own ego, you know he would play better. Excited by this new twist you can expect the Refs giving him a lot of the calls in the paint - which would disrupt a good portion of our offense (to say nothing of the injury potential). Shaq isn't capable of beating us on his own, but he could be the grain of sand (ok maybe more like a boulder) that tip the scale in their favour.

I guess the outcome depends largely on whether Shaq would he be able to step away from the buffet and into the weight room.

Oh and for the record Shaq is an upgrade from Marion.

[sendman]

Is this trading, buying, dealing over yet?
Everybody got what they wanted?
No more excuses?




OK then, get in line so you don't get smacked by the Spurs twice! :smokin

[diego]

from what i understand, shaq has two years left on his contract?

and its pretty safe to assume that next year he's done, at best a marginal role player...

so this is the suns last chance. they dont have the financial flexibility to make more moves, next year shaq is going to give them a 5% return on his contract, and the year after that nash is more than likely reduced to a spot up shooter.

this is the year to slam that window shut!

[Shred]

List of available big men who would've been better additions than Shaq:

[JPB]

List of available big men who would've been better additions than Shaq:

Shaq is not an addition. That's a trade.

The question is not 'Shaq or not' but 'Shaq for Marion or not'.

[JPB]

Having the guy that is in the argument for being the greatest half court player in NBA history, can do that for you...even when he's old. Doesn't hurt to have him paired with a two time MVP PG....


If PHX tries to run-n-gun with Shaq then they are by far the dumbest organization in the league. Shaq couldn't take heavy minutes on a slow moving Miami team.

But hey, they ARE Phoenix, so it's possible they run with him and Shaq has season ending knee surgury.


Shaq IS an half court big man.

But I was more thinking about the rest of the team and about Suns system.

Are they gonna/coud they change it in the middle of the season just for Shaq who is not the dominant player he was ?

[Shred]

Shaq is not an addition. That's a trade.

The question is not 'Shaq or not' but 'Shaq for Marion or not'.

In the big picture, you could think of the Suns' moves since last season as Marion for Hill + Shaq. But here goes:

List of better big men available by trade:













Eh, not so much.

[JPB]

Theorically, every player is available by trade.

but here are some :

Haslem
Mourning
PJ Brown (free agent. PHO was interested)
Wallace (Lakers were)
Jermaine O'Neal (discussed every year)

[1Parker1]

Here's what I don't understand. Having Shaq on their team, Suns would become a more 1/2 court offensive team with him in the lineup...no way Shaq can keep up with the up and down play of the Suns. And as the Spurs proved last week in their game against the Suns, they are definitely not a good halfcourt team...even with Shaq they wouldn't be I don't think.

Personally, I think the loss to the Spurs last week without Parker has spurred the Suns into believing they have to make some trade..any trade if they want a chance to come out of the West this year.

[RADECK]

I wouldn't mind to se Marion in Spurs uniform, but this trade makes Suns even more shitty team.

[Mr. Body]

Off the top of my head, but not knowing his injury situation, Jermaine O'Neal would have been a much better option.

[1Parker1]

^Agreed. Or even keeping Kurt Thomas if they wanted a defensive presence in the middle!

[bresilhac]

I wouldn't mind to se Marion in Spurs uniform, but this trade makes Suns even more shitty team.

Without question this stupid, desperate move diminishes the Suns chances at winning it all. Marion fit in perfectly with the D'Antoni/Nash run and gun system and was the perfect scoring complement to Amare. Now, they've got a washed up, near finished Shaquille who will at best contribute only a little to what the team will want to accomplish. It surprises me that Steve Kerr could have been a party to such a bonehead move given his past success.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Geez, that was quite a read. My take on it: It makes the Suns better, but it's not going to get them over the hump. It makes sense for the Suns, but they face REALLY long odds on it paying off. Marion needed to go, I think they probably got about as good of a player as they were going to get, and they needed to make a change to what they were doing. The problem as I see it is time. Do they have enough time to get a guy like Shaq, who will change the entire identity of the team when he steps on the floor, integrated well enough into the team to get them to the next level? I would wonder even if they made this move in the offseason, much less at the deadline. More importantly, will Shaq's health give him the time he needs to get integrated into this team? Obviously he needs to be healthy for the playoffs, but he represents such a radical shift for this team that they may not have the luxury of him taking it easy and missing much time for the rest of the season if they want him to be a true difference maker in May. I don't doubt that Shaq's got something left in the tank, I just wonder if the Suns are going to be able to tap into it enough to make the leap to a true championship caliber team.

[Real Tomato Ketchup]

Geez, that was quite a read. My take on it: It makes the Suns better, but it's not going to get them over the hump. It makes sense for the Suns, but they face REALLY long odds on it paying off. Marion needed to go, I think they probably got about as good of a player as they were going to get, and they needed to make a change to what they were doing. The problem as I see it is time. Do they have enough time to get a guy like Shaq, who will change the entire identity of the team when he steps on the floor, integrated well enough into the team to get them to the next level? I would wonder even if they made this move in the offseason, much less at the deadline. More importantly, will Shaq's health give him the time he needs to get integrated into this team? Obviously he needs to be healthy for the playoffs, but he represents such a radical shift for this team that they may not have the luxury of him taking it easy and missing much time for the rest of the season if they want him to be a true difference maker in May. I don't doubt that Shaq's got something left in the tank, I just wonder if the Suns are going to be able to tap into it enough to make the leap to a true championship caliber team.

Ain't no way I am reading that whole thread, your wrap up was perfect. :fro

[Ghost Writer]

This is a reactionary move by the Suns in response to Gasol on the Lakers.

It's a bad move for them.

Shaq is slow, plodding and good in the half court.

How does that fit into their plans?



P.S.

Gasol and Marion both whined about being traded. This continues the trend of players forcing their front office's hand.

[spursfaninla]

What shaq does for the suns:

1) half court scoring: When Phoenix is FORCED to slow down in the playoffs, they have a chance at scoring in the half court. This takes pressure off of Amare to guard Duncan, and if Shaq gets fouls it probably does not really hurt them because they will only want 15 pts or so from him anyway.

2) defense around the basket: Gives them a shot blocker who can intimidate around the basket (his weight alone)

What shaq does not do:

1defend well other than clog the middle and block shots.
2Rebound. Marion actually had better numbers than shaq
3keep the weight off. Shaq is at risk of missing time, and it would be
inopportune if he was not healthy in the playoffs
4 help chemistry: Marion was a BIG part of their fast break. He was a
cancer, but overall I don't know if shaq will mesh in time.

Overall: Marion was decent on parker, and I see Nash now having to guard him, which is very bad for phoenix. The Spurs will force shaq out on pick and rolls and make him switch and come out on parker, which his tired old self might finally not want to do. Shaq does help them in the area I think they were weakest: what do they do on both ends of the court in half court? Shaq hurts them, I think badly, when it comes to chemistry issues, and is risky with his health. Overall risky, with (I think) more downside than up, but you never know, it could end up helping them. Doubt it.

[peskypesky]

Does Shaq honestly demand a constant double team every possesion any more? No. If you've seen Heat games players are not afraid of guarding him 1 on 1 anymore.

Very true. Hard to believe, but true. I've seen a lot of games this year where teams went to single coverage on Shaq and he didn't destroy his defender like he used to. He still has the bulk and the strength, but he no longer has the explosiveness and the hops. I've seen him miss a lot of layups and chip-shots that he never used to miss.

[ploto]

This begs the question, if Shaq goes to Phoenix, do the Spurs wish they still had Rasho?? :stirpot:

[Xylus]

Wow.

I still can't quite wrap my head around this one. I'm sad to see Shawn Marion go.

[dbreiden83080]

yeah ok.

When Shaq pops his stomach muscles or pops that ankle again, we shall see how great that trade looks.

The less than 100% Shaq was so fantastic in 03.....

How oh how did Parker score and Ginobili against the Lakers THAT year?!?!?

That is what i was thinking, Shaq can guard Duncan, when did this happen did i miss the memo?? Did he guard him in 03 whenever they made the switch, NOPE Timmy destroyed the Lakers in 03 when Shaq was at his best. Shaq is not a good defender anymore, he is old, slow out of shape and always injured. He can't guard Duncan and will not be enough of a dominant force out there on offense to have made it worth losing Marions versatility and defense, especially on Parker, who owns the Suns.

[ploto]

The best option against Shaq on the Spurs is probably *gulp* Francisco Elson. Elson wouldn't be able to stop Shaq very often but he'd at least make him run.

Horry and Oberto seem to be scared of Shaq. Seriously.
Question- does this move mean the Spurs should hold onto Elson and not trade him?


As the West continues to get bigger and bigger, the need for a player like Thomas diminishes. Yeah, I'd like him still but he's starting to look like a further off prospect. With Shaq in the West, expect everyone to again get bigger. Even if Shaq is as done as Baseline Bum says, teams aren't going to take that chance.
Isn't the pendulum interesting...


truly think Kerr saw the Spurs suck and still beat the Suns and that was the end of the small ball era in the NBA. He knew that the Suns weren't beating the Spurs in the playoffs ... so he went out and got the one player who has single-handedly beaten the Spurs in the Duncan era.

Adding Shaq and getting rid of Marion was a great idea. It might not pan out but I just gained a lot of respect for Kerr. He could have easily lived with status quo and gone out in the WCF like usual. But he instead decided to swing for the fences.
People said the Suns would never win a championship that way and so they are changing to try to find a way to win one-- which is their goal. What is so bad about that?

[Spurs Brazil]

Suns will regret trading for O'Neal

By Adrian Wojnarowski, Yahoo! Sports
February 6, 2008





As long as the Phoenix Suns linger as that championship-free franchise in the desert, they will continue to regret making a trade for a broken-down Shaquille O'Neal. Between going for it, and sheer desperation, there is the finest line. What happened to believing in Mike D'Antoni's system? What happened to believing speed and finesse could deliver a championship?

In every way, this trade is an indictment of these D'Antoni glory years with the Suns. If Suns president Steve Kerr is thrusting Shaq onto his coach, he never bought into his coach's system. If D'Antoni is going along with this, you have to wonder whether he ever truly believed his way could win a title.


If he's willing to trade Shawn Marion for this Shaq, the architect of this system has surrendered.

ADVERTISEMENT


"What are they (expletive) thinking?" one Western Conference executive blurted late Tuesday night.

"I have no clue what they are thinking," one Eastern Conference scout said. "Shaq retired two years ago."

"It seems like a classic clash of styles," one Western Conference GM said.

Still, there was one Eastern Conference GM who said, "I give Phoenix credit for rolling the dice and trying to make this happen."

This is beyond a roll of the dice. Shaq has to pass a physical in Phoenix on Wednesday, a source told Yahoo! Sports, and you wonder if the Suns elders might come to their senses and make sure that O'Neal "fails" the examination.

For reasons that are clear, Shaq doesn't fit offensively with the Suns. He can't run anymore. He can't shoot. He still was groaning about his touches in Miami, and you think he's going to accept life as the fourth, maybe fifth, option at times? There's little evidence to suggest Shaq simply will embrace the role of defensive stopper that the Suns so desperately want of him.

Do you think Shaq will be content with rebounding and throwing outlets to start fast breaks, never to be rewarded on the offensive end? Alonzo Mourning did it late in his Miami career, but Shaq never has come to terms with his basketball mortality. He still thinks he's the Diesel, and God bless him for it. It makes him bigger than life. Yet it doesn't make him right for the Suns.


Most of all, Shaq can't stay on the floor. He is broken down. He will be 36 next month. He always is hurt now. He has been meeting constantly with doctors this season, MRI after MRI on his hip. His knees still struggle to carry those 340 pounds on his bones. Shaq's spirit was built to endure forever, but his body is a different story.


The Suns are hoping a chance to play for a contender will motivate him to do his rehab and keep his weight down, but even that is wishful thinking. Listen, Shaq had one title left in him. Pat Riley squeezed it out of him. It's over. He doesn't bring Grant Hill's desperation to be a champion. Shaq has been there, done that four times, and you wonder how much that lure even drives him anymore.

Sure, Shaq would've made more sense for the Dallas Mavericks' half-court style, for an owner, Mark Cuban, who doesn't dump good players and future draft picks to stay out of the luxury tax. Yet that's all the Suns have done for the past year under owner Robert Sarver. If the Suns are willing to pay the $40 million owed Shaq over the next two years, they never should have traded tough-guy Kurt Thomas to the Seattle SuperSonics. He always did a good job defending Tim Duncan. He rebounded. He made shots. Most of all, he stayed on the floor.


Ultimately, Shaq can't do that anymore. How in the world is he going to make it to the end of June, through a long playoff run? Odds are he'll be wearing a suit on the bench come playoff time for the Suns.


So yes, Marion wants out of Phoenix. What does it tell you about him that he would welcome a trade to the worst team in the NBA? He wants a max-contract extension, and the Suns are unwilling to pay him. Here in Phoenix, he has a chance to win a championship, but apparently he is thrilled with taking a trip to lottery-land with the Miami Heat. Maybe Marion will opt out of the $17.8 million owed him in 2008-09 and become a free agent. Maybe Pat Riley re-signs him. Either way, Marion ought to call the Atlanta Hawks' Joe Johnson and see how life is with a loser.

Nevertheless, Kerr has played for too many championship teams to even understand a player who would want out of a system and away from a point guard who made him a star. To trade Marion is plausible for a lot reasons, but for Shaq? Now? Without the suspensions against the Spurs in the conference semifinals, the Suns were sure they could've beaten San Antonio. Maybe they were right, but trying to change themselves because the Lakers grabbed Pau Gasol, because they fear the Mavericks will get Jason Kidd, is the wrong way.

Yes, the Suns believe they need strength in the middle. They need a defensive presence. They wanted Amare Stoudemire to move to power forward, where the league's centers no longer can destroy him on a nightly basis. Still, this trade doesn't get the Suns closer to a title, just closer to heartbreak.

"Shaq doesn't fit anything they do," one Eastern Conference assistant coach said Tuesday night. "What makes the Suns great in the half-court is that they pick and roll everybody, all of those guys can shoot it. They have everyone playing a position bigger than they are, like Amare at the five, and Matrix at the four. … And now, you put Shaq out there, and I just don't see how it works.

"I guess he clogs the middle for them on defense, but you are stripping the identity of this team with him. Plus, what does he have left right now?"

Since Kerr took the Suns job in June, he has considered so many different trade scenarios for Marion. He talked with Minnesota and Boston about a three-way deal that would've brought the Suns Kevin Garnett. He talked with Utah about Andrei Kirilenko. To settle on Shaq seems just that – settling.

All along, the Suns believed they had a system that made teams change for them, that ultimately lived and died with the genius of Steve Nash and the go-go teammates. Suddenly, the Suns look so desperate, so unsure of themselves. Maybe this is Kerr and D'Antoni together; maybe this is the president going it alone.


Nevertheless, the message is unmistakable: When it comes to believing they could win a championship with the coach's style, this was a complete cut-and-run on Super Tuesday.


Somehow, this doesn't feel like the Suns are going for it.


It feels like unconditional surrender.


Adrian Wojnarowski is the NBA columnist for Yahoo! Sports. Send Adrian a question or comment for potential use in a future column or webcast.


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=Aj5czOy4pHZaEBFFKGcZQ_68vLYF?slug=aw-shaqtrade020608&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

[ChumpDumper]

Gasol and Marion both whined about being traded. This continues the trend of players forcing their front office's hand.Their GMs had been trying to get rid of them as soon as they got their jobs. In Gasol's case it's because the owner told him to dump salary. In Marion's case it's because the only person who could stand Marion on that team was Marion.

[Ghost Writer]

Are you arguing or enhancing?

Those two have acted like b1tches and begged to be dealt for a while now.

Their GMs probably could've gotten more, but decided to deal with the cancer immediately.

[ChumpDumper]

Are you arguing or enhancing?

Those two have acted like b1tches and begged to be dealt for a while now.

Their GMs probably could've gotten more, but decided to deal with the cancer immediately.Kerr could have traded Marion immediately but didn't want to give away Stoudemire. Gasol could have been traded several times over but Heisley actually wanted to take LESS back in trade.

PS - Nice of you to come around on the possibility of a Miller trade. Way to think outside the box.

[Ghost Writer]

Um, again, thanks Captain Obvious.

When did I p1ss on Mike Miller?

[ChumpDumper]

Um, again, thanks Captain Obvious.

When did I p1ss on Mike Miller?:lmao

You took a long, hard, smelly piss on the possibility of a Miller trade when I brought it up. You said there was no way Memphis would let him go for expiring contracts, picks and cash.

Now that they did just that for Gasol, you changed your tune.

[Ghost Writer]

:lmao

You took a long, hard, smelly piss on the possibility of a Miller trade when I brought it up. You said there was no way Memphis would let him go for expiring contracts, picks and cash.

Now that they did just that for Gasol, you changed your tune.
False.

I never said M. Miller would not be a great fit in San Antonio.

And I never said that Miller to the Spurs was a possibility.

In fact, I have not seen anywhere that Miller is on the market.

We all knew Gasol had to go.

Is Memphis continuing the firesale after Gasol and Swift?

Question.

[DDS4]

I'm curious to see how good of a coaching job D'antoni will do.

[ChumpDumper]

False.
LOL

Why would Memphis hand over M. Miller?

Because you want them to?

You're preposterous.

Kill yourself.

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2202659&postcount=50

[Oh, Gee!!]

I'm curious to see how good of a coaching job D'antoni will do.


expecially when Shaq-fu demands more touches

[Ghost Writer]

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2202659&postcount=50
Yeah, and?

Miller is very good and I don't see any reason for Memphis to trade him (Gasol) or waive him (D. Stoudamire).

If he's available, then sure... get him!

[ChumpDumper]

Yeah, and?

Miller is very good and I don't see any reason for Memphis to trade him (Gasol) or waive him (D. Stoudamire).

If he's available, then sure... get him!:lol

Now you're intrigued by the possibility.

Tell me, are the Memphis Grizzlies now a profitable team after trading Gasol?

Are they now a better team after trading Gasol?

You refuse to look at basketball as a business and that limits your thinking.

There aren't any real basketball reasons to trade Miller but there are enormous business reasons to trade him. About 19 million of them.

[ploto]

...
Although O'Neal has been out with a hip injury, there is a belief that he will pass the physical because he is in great condition and is said to be at 312 pounds (down from his listed 325 pounds) with low body fat.

He seems to be a motivated player too, having jumped on a plane this morning after talking to several of the Suns, such as Steve Nash and Amaré Stoudemire, on Tuesday night.

"I will not let you down," O'Neal told Nash on the phone....

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/articles/0206shaqlatest.html

[ploto]

Sources said both Steve Nash and Amare Stoudemire were asked on Tuesday for their reaction to O’Neal possibly joining the team, and both were in favor of the move...

Phoenix’s reasoning for considering the deal apparently doesn’t have so much to do with the recent rumblings around the West – the Lakers acquisition of Pau Gasol and rumors Dallas could be looking to add Jason Kidd – as the realization that asking Stoudemire to play out of position against the league’s top centers wasn’t working.

The Mavericks are also interested in O’Neal and are believed to have offered forward Josh Howard as the main piece in such a deal.

Phoenix either has to constantly double team or deal with Stoudemire’s frequent foul difficulties. Last Thursday’s 84-81 loss to San Antonio, when Stoudemire picked up two fouls in the first three minutes and had to avoid Duncan defensively the rest of the way, appears to have been more of a catalyst to the O’Neal discussions. There has also been a season-long feeling that the team cohesion hasn’t equaled that of the last three seasons, when Phoenix reached the Western Conference finals twice.

With Nash about to celebrate his 34th birthday on Thursday, the idea is to prop open the team’s “championship window” with one of the most celebrated players in NBA history, although how much of that immense talent remains is debatable...

http://rimshots.freedomblogging.com/2008/02/06/get-ready-here-comes-shaq/

[sprrs]

It's official.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3234099

Sources: Shaq passes physical, traded to Suns in Marion deal

By Marc Stein
ESPN.com
(Archive)

Updated: February 6, 2008, 5:51 PM ET

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Diesel will be chugging out West.

In one of the most improbable trades in NBA history, the Miami Heat traded Shaquille O'Neal to the Phoenix Suns on Wednesday for Shawn Marion and Marcus Banks, sources close to the situation told ESPN.com.

O'Neal had traveled to Phoenix Wednesday morning to take a physical, which he presumably passed.

Hollinger: Why Shaq?

The Suns have the best record in the West with their current roster. So why do they want to blow up the team, John Hollinger writes. Story

• Broussard: Crazy deal Insider

The Miami Herald first reported on its Web site Tuesday night that the Heat informed O'Neal that they were shopping him and that talks with the Suns were serious.

Marion and O'Neal were reportedly both in favor of the trade, with sources telling ESPN.com on Tuesday that the Heat center was eager to leave his deteriorating relationship with Miami coach Pat Riley.

O'Neal talked to Suns players including Steve Nash and Amare Stoudemire, The Arizona Republic reported on Wednesday. "I will not let you down," O'Neal reportedly told Nash on the phone.

The Suns have been plagued by well-chronicled concerns about their chemistry for nearly two years, generally focusing on the occasional dissatisfaction voiced behind the scenes by either Marion or Stoudemire. In the locker room as well as the front office, sources told Stein, there are factions that have believed for some time that one of them would eventually have to be traded for the Suns to reach their full potential.

Marion asked to be traded before the season but has rarely mentioned that declaration since, with many Suns insiders believing that he went public with that request mostly as a protest response to being mentioned in trade rumors for years.

O'Neal turns 36 in March and has been plagued by a persistent hip problem that has cost him 14 games this season. He refused to speak with Miami reporters after Tuesday's practice, while Riley insisted that O'Neal would soon undergo an MRI after missing the Heat's past six games.

And when he has been healthy, O'Neal is averaging a career-worst 14.2 points and 7.8 rebounds, while the Heat's demise has deepened after they followed their historic comeback from 2-0 down against Dallas in the 2006 NBA Finals by absorbing a first-round sweep by Chicago last season.

Marion, a four-time All-Star, is averaging 15.6 points and 9.8 rebounds this season, while Banks is putting up 5.2 points and 1.0 assist per game.

ESPN.com senior NBA writer Marc Stein, ESPN The Magazine senior NBA writer Ric Bucher and and The Associated Press contributed to this report.

[duncan228]

Wow.
I guess that's that
The only way to know if it's going to work is to wait it out and see.

[spursrocksocks]

hahaha Phoenix fucked themselves this year, I cant wait to hear what they bitch about when they lose in the first round playoffs

[jmard5]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3234099

Associated Press
Updated: February 6, 2008, 6:16 PM ET

PHOENIX -- The Phoenix Suns have acquired Shaquille O'Neal in a stunning, blockbuster deal that sends four-time All-Star Shawn Marion and Marcus Banks to the Miami Heat.

The improbable pairing of the speedy Suns and the slow but once-mighty O'Neal became official when he cleared a physical exam Wednesday.

Thanks in part to injuries, Shaquille O'Neal's numbers are down significantly from his career averages this season. While his field goal percentage remains steady, the Big Aristotle's minutes, points and rebounds per game are well below his accustomed level of excellence.

The trade, a dramatic move by first-year Phoenix general manager Steve Kerr, signals an unexpected change in philosophy for the Suns, adding a 7-foot-1, 325-pound center who has won four NBA championships but has been plagued by injuries in recent years and turns 36 next month. O'Neal has been out with a hip injury and underwent an MRI exam in Miami on Tuesday. He flew to Phoenix on Wednesday for the physical.

O'Neal has averaged 25.6 points and 11.5 rebounds in his 14-plus NBA seasons.

This season, plagued by injuries and going through a divorce, he's averaging 14.2 points. His 14-year streak as an All-Star choice came to an end this year.

He missed much of the 2006-07 season with a knee injury and finished that year with career-lows in games (40), scoring (17.3 points), rebounds (7.4), minutes (28.4) and free-throw percentage (.422).

Phoenix gambled he will be healthy and more motivated when he moves to the desert.

For the three-plus seasons since Steve Nash came to town, the speedy Suns have been darlings of NBA fans grown weary of the slow style that has prevailed for years. But the Suns have fallen short in the playoffs, never making it to the finals.

Marion, weary of being third fiddle to Nash and Amare Stoudemire, asked to be traded before the season began. He didn't get his wish and, although he refused to talk publicly about it, remained unhappy with his role.

Still, his talents fit well with the fast-paced style that coach Mike D'Antoni wanted, especially with his ability to finish on a fast break. He also was the team's best defender, guarding everyone from Tony Parker to Yao Ming. Marion, who has spent all of his 8½ NBA seasons with Phoenix, made the All-Star team five times, including the last three seasons.

This year, though, he failed to make it, while Nash and Stoudemire did. Marion has an NBA career averages of 18.4 points and 10 rebounds per game. This season he's averaging 15.8 points and 9.9 boards.

The Suns have the best record in the West (34-14) but have not played up to their own expectations. Their interior defense is among the NBA's worst. Kerr apparently felt that without a large presence inside, Phoenix could not combat the big men, such as Andrew Bynum and Tim Duncan, in the playoffs.

With O'Neal on the court, Stoudemire can play his more natural power forward position.

O'Neal's move west adds fuel to the already intense rivalry between the Suns, the Lakers and his old teammate Kobe Bryant.

The trade required a significant financial commitment from the budget-conscious owner Robert Sarver because O'Neal is scheduled to make $20 million this season and $20 million more each of the next two.

Marion makes $16.4 million this year and could opt out of the $17 million final year of his contract after this season. Banks has been in and out of the Suns' rotation the past two seasons.

O'Neal entered this season talking about how he wanted to win at least one more title, saying his "legacy" wouldn't be complete unless he left the game with at least five rings.

The Heat, though, have lost 19 of their last 20 games and have the NBA's worst record at 9-37.

Copyright 2008 by The Associated Press

[Slomo]

I'm curious to see how good of a coaching job D'antoni will do.5xhulZeZUh0

[Mr. Body]

It's like Phoenix dropped a safe on their own heads.

[WalterBenitez]

we are done!

[Borosai]

Transcript:
Here we go, go, let's go, let's go, let's go... C'mon baby let's go, c'mon, let's go... C'mor guy ga we can't get tired, tired is not in our vocabulary, let's go.

Wow. :lol

[Dex]

Shaq probably gets tired putting on his sneakers.

[Spurs Brazil]

So long, Suns, it's been fun

The disappointment isn't because Phoenix failed to win a championship with small ball. It's because the Suns stopped trying.

Trading Shawn Marion and Marcus Banks for Shaquille O'Neal might be a full-scale (albeit bizarre) attempt to grab a ring, but it also is an admission of failure for their way of basketball. They just sided with the skeptics and said, "You're right, we can't run our way to the Finals."

I'd rather see them go out like Tom Hanks in "Saving Private Ryan," pulling out his pistol and firing away at the German tank in a last desperate effort to save the bridge. Or show some of that same defiance as Denzel Washington in "American Gangster," making one last trip to Asia to import more heroin even though everybody's telling him the game is over.

Instead the Suns conformed.

I had a teacher who used to say revolution is impossible in a capitalistic society because any countercultural idea will quickly get bought up and mass-marketed and next thing you know Che Guevara t-shirts are going for $8.99.

The same goes for the NBA. They have widened the lane, brought in the 3-point shot, made it illegal to hand-check speedy guards … and it's still as much a big man's game as it was in the days of George Mikan.

The object is to get the best shot possible, and tall men dunking will always be the best option. If you wanted to win, that was the way to go. Michael Jordan ruled the 1990s, but the further we get away from that time the more of an aberration it seems and the more we can put to rest any comparisons to him. He won six rings with Bill Cartwright and Luc Longley at center. There's no other like him.


[+] EnlargeDoug Pensinger/Getty Images

In the half court, Amare Stoudemire and Steve Nash will compete with Shaq for touches.
For all others, the way to a championship is through the low post. Shaq and Tim Duncan have won eight of the past nine championships. Even when Magic and Bird were racking up rings they still had Hall of Fame centers in the paint.

The inside game is not as fun, it's not as entertaining, but it's effective. In football, you win with defense and running; in baseball, you win with pitching. In life, you'd better eat your vegetables.

Kobe Bryant and the Lakers tried to fight these essential truths, and it ended about as happily as Othello. When Shaq was in L.A., the Lakers were better when the ball went through O'Neal, even if they were more boring. Besides, O'Neal provided plenty of entertainment before the cameras in the locker room. (He hasn't lost that touch, as he showed in a tribute to his alma mater before the BCS championship game.)

It might have been hard to admit for the franchise that brought us Showtime, but no team was ever going to get another ultimate point guard like Magic Johnson surrounded by finishers such as James Worthy, Byron Scott and Michael Cooper. But the circus couldn't have gone on without Kareem Abdul-Jabbar keeping the tent up. When things slowed down, they could always go inside to the greatest scorer in the history of the game.

Other teams (most notably Doug Moe's Denver Nuggets) tried to run without a true big man, but the Suns were our first viable alternative. Nutritious cotton candy. Maybe, just maybe, they could outrun everybody to the ring. Even this season, with some nagging injuries and lingering chemistry issues, they still had the best record in the Western Conference before they pulled the trigger on the trade.

Perhaps it was the double-whammy of losing a home game to the depleted Spurs followed by the Lakers' acquisition of Pau Gasol the next day that spooked Suns GM Steve Kerr into action. The Suns got desperate. One involved party member called it "a last-ditch play."


All you need to know about this deal is that it doesn't fit the Headline Rule. That in itself should raise more red flags than a NASCAR race at Martinsville.

The Headline Rule dictates that the NBA team that gets the player in the headline automatically wins the trade. It was "Lakers Get Gasol," not "Kwame Traded to Grizzlies." Clear advantage: Lakers.

In this case, the news was Shaq got traded. But the people who think the Suns are better off for this move are in the minority. The more common reaction was: What were they thinking?

O'Neal doesn't fit the Suns' style or their payroll plans.

Some argue that Shaq can play the role of ex-Sun Kurt Thomas: rebounding and guarding the likes of Tim Duncan. If that's the case then why didn't they just keep Kurt Thomas at $8 million a year instead of taking on Shaq's contract at $20 million per through 2010?

And that way it wouldn't have cost them Marion. As much as anyone, Marion enabled the Suns to be the Suns. He could defend a variety of positions, he could start and finish fast breaks and he could hit open three-pointers. Everything they needed and wanted to do, he could provide. While Steve Nash got the acclaim and Amare Stoudemire got the dunks, Marion got the critical offensive rebounds.


[+] EnlargeBarry Gossage/NBAE via Getty Images

Along with Nash's vision, Marion's all-around prowess provided the Suns their unique identity.
No, Marion can't guard Duncan. But at the rate Shaq has picked up fouls this season, he might last only 20 minutes against the Quiet Storm. That's assuming O'Neal can get on the court. He played in only four games last month. He'll turn 36 next month.

Some speculate the trade will motivate and rejuvenate him the way his exile from L.A. did in 2004. Surely the chance to squash Kobe's championship dreams should be good for a few extra reps in the weight room. But maybe his body can't keep up with his ego anymore. In this case the fall could goeth before pride.

But even if he's slower, even if he can't jump as high, he's still 7-foot-1. You don't need to scheme or create a special offense for 7-foot-1.

Even Don Nelson, the ultimate oddball, took a nod toward tradition when he brought back Chris Webber. Like Shaq with the Suns, Webber's slower game doesn't appear to fit with the Warriors' style. But perhaps Golden State decided it need more passes to and from the post than threes being launched from the hash mark.

If the Suns really wanted to take things to the extreme they would have signed Earl Boykins and set him loose in the backcourt with Leandro Barbosa. Instead they've gone the other way, toward the norm, toward the pack.

La revolución está muerta.


J.A. Adande is the author of "The Best Los Angeles Sports Arguments." He joined ESPN.com as an NBA columnist in August 2007 after 10 years with the Los Angeles Times. Click here to e-mail J.A.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=adande_ja&page=Suns-080206

[ploto]

If people want to know why the Suns made this trade, it is summed up in this one fact:

Shaq and Tim Duncan have won eight of the past nine championships.

[timvp]

...
Although O'Neal has been out with a hip injury, there is a belief that he will pass the physical because he is in great condition and is said to be at 312 pounds (down from his listed 325 pounds) with low body fat.

He seems to be a motivated player too, having jumped on a plane this morning after talking to several of the Suns, such as Steve Nash and Amaré Stoudemire, on Tuesday night.

"I will not let you down," O'Neal told Nash on the phone....

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/articles/0206shaqlatest.html




http://www.sittingduckassetprotection.com/images/bury-head-in-sand-cartoon-crop2.gif

:lol @ the Suns. Shaq sucks! Sweep!!!!

[Mr. Body]

If people want to know why the Suns made this trade, it is summed up in this one fact:

Shaq and Tim Duncan have won eight of the past nine championships.

And they will until the end of time.

[MI21]

Wow, I'm very late on all this. Shaq to the Suns, wtf?

Nash, Barbosa, Bell, Stoudamire, Shaq.

Unguardable.

[CarefreeAZ]

T Park wins.

Thank you come again.


T-Park - Were you serious about Parker dropping 45 points because Marion's gone? You truly are a delusional spurs fan. Raja Bell will guard Parker, Barbosa can guard parker, DJ Strawberry can guard parker and Amare's greatest strength is coming from the weak side to swat that crap.

The only 45 he's putting up is 45K for Eva's valenties day jewelry.

[K-State Spur]

Wow, I'm very late on all this. Shaq to the Suns, wtf?

Nash, Barbosa, Bell, Stoudamire, Shaq.

Unguardable.

also unable to guard. there is bell and then 4 awful defenders.

[hsxvvd]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AjTZfq0bOgzK5nztb5zqg8i8vLYF?slug=ap-shaq-trade&prov=ap&type=lgns


"There's not as much pressure now, as far as being that center position, that center stopper," Stoudemire said. "I've been playing out of position for four years now. Now I'm back at my natural position. Shaq is the best at his and I'm the best at mine, so it's going to be a great opportunity for us."


:smokin
:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

[hsxvvd]

http://www.gadling.com/media/2006/06/potd613.jpg

[T Park]

Barbosa can guard parker


excuse me while i pick myself up off the floor after laughing so hard.


DJ Strawberry can guard parker


Excuse me, had to do it again.

:lmao @ DJ Strawberry



Although O'Neal has been out with a hip injury, there is a belief that he will pass the physical because he is in great condition and is said to be at 312 pounds (down from his listed 325 pounds) with low body fat.

He seems to be a motivated player too, having jumped on a plane this morning after talking to several of the Suns, such as Steve Nash and Amaré Stoudemire, on Tuesday night.

"I will not let you down," O'Neal told Nash on the phone....


Yeah, thats bad.... :(

[Xylus]

http://www.nba.com/media/suns/080207_shaq_cactus2.jpg
What the hell? :lol

[timvp]

My initial reaction was this trade was a horrible trade for the Suns. Shaq for three years and $60M while at the same time giving up Marion? Sounds bad.

But now after thinking about it some more, I see how it makes sense. The Suns, how they are built now, aren't going to win a championship. As constructed, they've already peaked and are on the way down. The chemistry is bad and getting worse. Not only that, with the Lakers getting Gasol -- that moved them past the Suns in the championship contender list. The Suns couldn't guard Bynum alone ... how would they guard Bynum and Gasol? Out of everyone in the West, the Gasol trade hurt the Suns the most.

Now obviously Shaq is past is prime and has gotten injured a lot ... but you have Shaq on your team, you have a chance at a championship. Period. Even if Shaq can be 75% of what he was, he can still be a dominant force. Put him on a team with a point guard that can get him the ball, a power forward that will make it impossible to double-team him with a big and solid veteran role players and the Suns will be legit championship contenders. Plus they'd be losing Marion who is probably the most overrated player of this generation.

People can question Shaq all they want but a motivated Shaq is the last player I want the Spurs to go against in a seven game series. He can guard Duncan as well as anyone ever has. When motivated, he has always been underrated as far as clogging up the lane by himself defensively. Parker and Manu will have a tough time getting to the rim and scoring with Mt. Shaq taking up so much room.Bump.

:pctoss

[timvp]

Oh and where are all the Spur Fans who said Shaq was done, couldn't rebound, couldn't guard Duncan, couldn't clog the lane, etc?

:pctoss

[T Park]

God I hate it when your right.

[timvp]

Oh and where are all the Spur Fans who said Shaq was done, couldn't rebound, couldn't guard Duncan, couldn't clog the lane, etc?

:pctoss

http://www.lakelandwildlife.co.uk/images/darkcrick.gif

[ploto]

This begs the question, if Shaq goes to Phoenix, do the Spurs wish they still had Rasho?? :stirpot:

[ChumpDumper]

Spurs are fine. We can hang with this Suns team.

I'll take Rasho back if he ever gets a contract that matches his actual worth.

[timvp]

Shaq would have had 50 points and 25 rebounds on Rasho.

[Bruno]

:lmao at the weak bump.


Suns have been bad with Shaq and it's not a game where Shaq was more motivated than the whole Spurs team that will change that.

We will see in playoffs what will happen...

[timvp]

Spurs are fine. We can hang with this Suns team.And they couldn't hang with the other Suns team?

[ChumpDumper]

And they couldn't hang with the other Suns team?Sure they could. WTF are we supposed to do? Curl up into a ball and die?

[timvp]

:lmao at the weak bump.


Suns have been bad with Shaq and it's not a game where Shaq was more motivated than the whole Spurs team that will change that.

We will see in playoffs what will happen...Oh so now Spur Fan is going to pull the "Shaq was motivated" card when they dismissed the possibility of him being motivated going to PHX? Gotcha.

:dizzy













P.S.

Nice guaranteed Hornets win over Rockets.

:smokin

[timvp]

Sure they could. WTF are we supposed to do? Curl up into a ball and die?If you are speaking about "we" as in Spurs fans, I'd think a good first step would not being overconfident and claim repeatedly that Shaq and the Suns are done. Read the thread and see how many Spurs fans scoffed at the mention of Shaq being able to do anything.

[Bruno]

Oh so now Spur Fan is going to pull the "Shaq was motivated" card when they dismissed the possibility of him being motivated going to PHX? Gotcha.

:dizzy

Link of me saying that Shaq wasn't motivated ?



P.S.

Nice guaranteed Hornets win over Rockets.

:smokin

It's not like Hornets were playing without their all start PF. :rolleyes

[ChumpDumper]

If you are speaking about "we" as in Spurs fans, I'd think a good first step would not being overconfident and claim repeatedly that Shaq and the Suns are done. Read the thread and see how many Spurs fans scoffed at the mention of Shaq being able to do anything.We as spurfans can't do very much about it either way. If you want to claim scoreboard on Shaq's effectiveness, that's your right -- but I don't see how anyone would bother keeping score against you in the first place.

[timvp]

Link of me saying that Shaq wasn't motivated ?Asking for link with the search off is a :nope


It's not like Hornets were playing without their all start PF. :rolleyesHe was injured when you made the guarantee.

[Xylus]

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

[timvp]

We as spurfans can't do very much about it either way.Overconfident Spurs fans transform into lazy Spurs fans which results in the Spurs not being able to sell out games in the Western Conference Finals.

Appropriate fear is mandatory in San Antonio or else Spurs fans stop caring. You'd think Shaq being traded to a contender would bring appropriate fear ... but instead it brought laughter and even more overconfidentedness.

'Tis all I'm saying.

[ploto]

Shaq would have had 50 points and 25 rebounds on Rasho.
Sorry, Rasho played great today and nothing anyone says here can put me in an even remotely bad mood.

[timvp]

Sorry, Rasho played great today and nothing anyone says here can put me in an even remotely bad mood.Props for beating the mighty Sonics. In Toronto. By 8.

:tu

[Bruno]

Asking for link with the search off is a :nope

Strangely you found a way to bump an one month old thread...
I've never "dismissed the possibility of him being motivated going to PHX". Until you find a link, you will have to trust me on that.




He was injured when you made the guarantee.

Was he out for this game ? NO.

[td4mvp21]

All Shaq had to do was stand there in the paint. Our guards shit their pants and threw up pansy floaters. Duncan missed so many fucking layups on Shaq.

[ChumpDumper]

Overconfident Spurs fans transform into lazy Spurs fans which results in the Spurs not being able to sell out games in the Western Conference Finals.:lol I attribute that to laziness and poor PR.


Appropriate fear is mandatory in San Antonio or else Spurs fans stop caring. You'd think Shaq being traded to a contender would bring appropriate fear ... but instead it brought laughter and even more overconfidentedness.

'Tis all I'm saying.It seems like a pretty lateral move to me overall. The Suns were contenders as they were and they are contenders now? Decidedly better? I'm not sure. Given their coach and personnel, I have about the same fear of them as I used to.

Sorry if it's not enough.

[timvp]

:lol I attribute that to laziness and poor PR.Laziness, yes. Poor PR? How much PR do you need for the WCF?


It seems like a pretty lateral move to me overall. The Suns were contenders as they were and they are contenders now? Decidedly better? I'm not sure. Given their coach and personnel, I have about the same fear of them as I used to.Eh the old Suns were owned by the Spurs. Unless the Spurs sucked they'd beat them almost every time.


Sorry if it's not enough.As long as it's appropriate, you are in the clear :tu

[Amuseddaysleeper]

I think people are making too much of this game.


The Spurs played this horrifically and still had a chance to win it in the end?

I'll take it.


The fact that we even had a 70-69 lead going into the fourth was laughable.


If we face these guys in the playoffs, we'll beat them in 6.


I'm much much more concerned with Dallas than I am Phoenix.

[timvp]

Strangely you found a way to bump an one month old thread...
I've never "dismissed the possibility of him being motivated going to PHX". Until you find a link, you will have to trust me on that.You can still sort by post count . . .


Was he out for this game ? NO.Huh? West missed the game. I thought that was the asterisk you were putting on your prediction.

[ChumpDumper]

Laziness, yes. Poor PR? How much PR do you need for the WCF?If a couple hundred tickets are available, it's probably a good idea to let people know.


Eh the old Suns were owned by the Spurs. Unless the Spurs sucked they'd beat them almost every time.Except when they didn't. So I guess I should be more afraid because the new Suns have beaten us 100% of the time.


As long as it's appropriate, you are in the clear :tuI retain my status as an uber-fairweather/frontrunner fan.

[Bruno]

Huh? West missed the game. I thought that was the asterisk you were putting on your prediction.

When I made the prediction, I didn't know that West wouldn't play this game. Believe me or not, that's all.

[timvp]

When I made the prediction, I didn't know that West wouldn't play this game. Believe me or not, that's all.Alright you thought he'd be back. Fair enough. I would ask you what you now think of the Scola trade but this thread has already been taken off track enough. :lol

[timvp]

I'm still waiting for the "SHAQ'S FAT ASS IS DONE!!!!11!!11!" crowd to show up. CD and Bruno weren't even on that bandwagon, I don't think.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

We play the suns again exactly one month from today


If they beat us on our own home floor, then I'll be worried.


I don't mean to come off as though I think the Spurs will sweep Phoenix or anything, but I just think if it's going to come down to fourth quarter execution, I give the Spurs the edge.

[Nash2Amare]

We play the suns again exactly one month from today


If they beat us on our own home floor, then I'll be worried.


I don't mean to come off as though I think the Spurs will sweep Phoenix or anything, but I just think if it's going to come down to fourth quarter execution, I give the Spurs the edge.
We'll be on a back to back :( (Suns)

[Shred]

What's the big deal? Everyone knows, the Suns have no interior defense, no rebounding, and can't play the half-court offense once they get to the playoffs.

[Bruno]

I would ask you what you now think of the Scola trade but this thread has already been taken off track enough. :lol

:lol
I will wait the end of the season to answer at that question.

[polandprzem]

I'm still waiting for the "SHAQ'S FAT ASS IS DONE!!!!11!!11!" crowd to show up. CD and Bruno weren't even on that bandwagon, I don't think.

I'm close to that statment.
You can count me in :tu

The funny thing about that game was hat the spurs were not plaing shaq as good as they can, defensivly and ofensivly.

And all in all Spurs looked lost on offense, none (maybe 4 in the 4th) of the s&r gave the spurs an adventage or lead a easy way to the basket. But that will be in a game thoughts thread

[timvp]

:pctoss

[ploto]

Beat me to the bump!

[polandprzem]

Well basicly Duncan looked like Shaq's bitch

The look on Duncan face tells the story, when Manu can't contribute Duncan won't give an energy and will be lost.

One of the most ugliest games I have witnessed, and at this stage of a season I must say clear and loud

SPURS ARE IN BIG SHIT

Can they get out of it in a week?

NO, Ut and Pho are demolishing San Antonio

[dbreiden83080]

Well basicly Duncan looked like Shaq's bitch

The look on Duncan face tells the story, when Manu can't contribute Duncan won't give an energy and will be lost.

One of the most ugliest games I have witnessed, and at this stage of a season I must say clear and loud

SPURS ARE IN BIG SHIT

Can they get out of it in a week?

NO, Ut and Pho are demolishing San Antonio

Oh great so lets rip Duncan for one bad 4th qtr. Duncan will beat Shaq's ass into the ground in a 7 game series. Our team as a whole sucks right now on offense.

[polandprzem]

Oh great so lets rip Duncan for one bad 4th qtr. Duncan will beat Shaq's ass into the ground in a 7 game series. Our team as a whole sucks right now on offense.

I'm talking about mental toughness.
Duncan looked almost the same as in 2001 (hint: broom), and the spurs could not get on their feet.

Since when I saw Duncan in that mode I knew how every position will end. Damn I watched the Spurs too many years not to know that kind of things.

I remind you all that Suns were on a b2b on a road while Spurs had a time to rest.
It realy not look good when a 67 year old Shaq dominates in the paint. NO D at all! And shit Suns were lobing to Shaq like in the old days.

Why we suck on O? Cause there is nobody who could push the ball up court. Parker is lonley out there running.
Suns were not playing great at all and they dominated. How can you not hold a team in the 4th who is playing in b2b?

Mentaly Tim folded once again. When he is in such mode he is wishing shots to go in and he is forceing the issue which is not good cause it takes away his game concentration, so he is off the game not in the game.

thx

[dbreiden83080]

Mentaly Tim folded once again. When he is in such mode he is wishing shots to go in and he is forceing the issue which is not good cause it takes away his game concentration, so he is off the game not in the game.

thx

Once again, the man has led the Spurs to 4 titles and has 3 finals mvps once again my ass. So he played a shitty 4th qtr that is all you are pissed about. Don't make this a bigger issue than it is. If the Spurs lose to the Suns it will hardly be because Tim did not do his part, not going to happen.

[polandprzem]

Once again, the man has led the Spurs to 4 titles and has 3 finals mvps once again my ass. So he played a shitty 4th qtr that is all you are pissed about. Don't make this a bigger issue than it is. If the Spurs lose to the Suns it will hardly be because Tim did not do his part, not going to happen.

So he did his part?

I was just showing the facts. Nothing less nothing more.

[timvp]

Let the Shaq Is Done roll call begin. And go . . .

[timvp]

I'm close to that statment.
You can count me in :tu

The funny thing about that game was hat the spurs were not plaing shaq as good as they can, defensivly and ofensivly.Not so funny anymore is it Przem.

[Bruno]

Bump...

[timvp]

Bump...:lol

Let's thank Mother Nature for aging Steve Nash :worthy:

[Obstructed_View]

:lol

Let's thank Mike "one PG on the roster" D'Antoni for aging Steve Nash :worthy:

Fixed.

[polandprzem]

:lol

Let's thank Mother Nature for aging Steve Nash :worthy:

blah blah blah


:D

[polandprzem]

I wanted to bump this shit up

I do even have it (thread link) on my desktop as a reminder

[whottt]

I don't suppose one of you erstwhile Shaq Trade bashers would care to provide us with the Spurs FG% against the Suns in this series VS our 05 and 07 meetings?


Thanks....in advance.


In particular I'd like you to find our stats VS the Suns in the 05 WCF when...you know, their bigs were Amare and Marion(as they would have again been this year without the Shaq trade)

[whottt]

Hell...I don't anticipate a quick response so how about we play a game?

Let's play match the Spurs Suns playoff series with the Spurs FG%:


A. 496% 1. 2008
B. 417% 2. 2007
C. 474% 3. 2005


The winning Shaq trade basher gets to keep a shred of his board credibility...

[whottt]

PS: I don't know if you guys noticed...but Shaq moved well in this series and outside of the hack a shack(which was effective once IMO), he didn't slow their running offense down at all.

[Bruno]

Let's play match the Spurs Suns playoff series with the Spurs FG%:


A. 496% 1. 2008
B. 417% 2. 2007
C. 474% 3. 2005


Spurs' FG% against Suns is 46.7% in the 2008 playoff series. :downspin:

[anakha]

PS: I don't know if you guys noticed...but Shaq moved well in this series and outside of the hack a shack(which was effective once IMO), he didn't slow their running offense down at all.

The fast-break points of the Suns this series don't seem to hold that up.

Game 1: 9
Game 2: 4
Game 3: 12
Game 4: 13
Game 5: 11

Their season average for fast-break points was around 17.5.

Of course, that also doesn't take into consideration yet the attention the Spurs paid to transition defense.

[whottt]

Spurs' FG% against Suns is 46.7% in the 2008 playoff series. :downspin:

Shit...I must have looked up the wrong stats, and does that total include this final game?



Anyway...if what you say is true, then this is still the best defensive Suns team against the Spurs, and the worst one against them was 05 team when the Suns didn't have any traditional quality bigs of any kind...which would have been the case again this season if not for trading for Shaq.

[whottt]

The fast-break points of the Suns this series don't seem to hold that up.

Game 1: 9
Game 2: 4
Game 3: 12
Game 4: 13
Game 5: 11

Their season average for fast-break points was around 17.5.

Of course, that also doesn't take into consideration yet the attention the Spurs paid to transition defense.



Right, the Spurs have always been good limiting their fast break points, especially when they are having a good game offensively, that's why the Suns wanted to get better in the half court.

[Bruno]

Shit...I must have looked up the wrong stats, and does that total include this final game?


Yes, it does.