All terra, all time: dubya's DoJ fails to convict "Liberty City Seven"

[boutons_]

Being sore losers, DoJ deports a non-criminal after he lived in USA crime-free for 20 years.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/030208Y.shtml

What bunch of fucking incompetent bullying goons.

My heart bulges with pride and my spirit soars like an American Eagle every time dubya's Exec does something brilliant and noble for America and its ideals.

[rasho8]

Being sore losers, DoJ deports a non-criminal after he lived in USA crime-free for 20 years.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/030208Y.shtml

What bunch of fucking incompetent bullying goons.

My heart bulges with price and my spirit soars like an American Eagle every time dubya's Exec does something brilliant and noble for America and its ideals.

Yeah thats a little jacked up.

Guy should be free to lvie here still, but fi they feel they have compellgin reasons to get rid of him... well thats their reasoning.

Oh and btw,not EVERY decision made by the DoJ crosses the presidents desk. You're kind of a moron for thinking that EVERYTHING that happnes, IRS, DoJ, the Fed, hinges on Bush's every command.

I dont think he has time for, nor does he really care about this guy or Obama's Christian church.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I hate America and the infidel George W. Bush. May him and you all die a fiery death

[FromWayDowntown]

My dislike for President Bush aside, this effort stinks of poor loser-dom. The feds thought they had a case against this guy, presented their evidence, and lost. Now, based on charges that they couldn't prove in a criminal context, they want to send away a man who was otherwise living in the United States legally. The government couldn't prove that he was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of those charges, so now it wants to take on a lesser legal burden to at least run the guy out of the country. If you're an alien who is suspected of a crime -- a crime that cannot be proven -- just pack up your bags because DOJ is going to try to get rid of you one way or another, even if they're the only ones who believe that you've done anything wrong.

[Wild Cobra]

Being sore losers, DoJ deports a non-criminal after he lived in USA crime-free for 20 years.

How could Lyglenson Lemorin have lived crime free here that long? Did he have a current visa? How did he work? Without a visa permitting him to work, at a minimum, he committed ID theft.

Just because they don't list other crimes, doesn't mean he didn't commit any. They often don't try people for these crimes. They don't have to waste the time and money. If he was here illegally, that alone even is crime enough!

[rasho8]

How could Lyglenson Lemorin have lived crime free here that long? Did he have a current visa? How did he work? Without a visa permitting him to work, at a minimum, he committed ID theft.

Just because they don't list other crimes, doesn't mean he didn't commit any. They often don't try people for these crimes. They don't have to waste the time and money. If he was here illegally, that alone even is crime enough!

Actually he had a green card. He was legally here and naturalized from what the reports said.


Caught in the middle is Lemorin, a father of two, a Haitian immigrant who came here as a child and is a permanent legal resident of the United States.

[xrayzebra]

How could Lyglenson Lemorin have lived crime free here that long? Did he have a current visa? How did he work? Without a visa permitting him to work, at a minimum, he committed ID theft.

Just because they don't list other crimes, doesn't mean he didn't commit any. They often don't try people for these crimes. They don't have to waste the time and money. If he was here illegally, that alone even is crime enough!

Yep I find it exceedingly strange that we are not give all
the facts in this wonderful post boutons makes reference
to.

You would think reading it that the man is pure as the
driven snow and the government couldn't prove jack.
But somehow they think they have enough to send him
back from whence he came.

Almost like the guy here in San Antonio who claims to
be an American, with all documents to prove it, that
the government is sending to Mexico. Of course he
claimed he was an illegal upteen times to get out of
crimes committed by being voluntarily returning to
Mexico and then coming back into the U.S. using some
kind of documentation.

[some_user86]

Yep I find it exceedingly strange that we are not give all
the facts in this wonderful post boutons makes reference
to.

You would think reading it that the man is pure as the
driven snow and the government couldn't prove jack.
But somehow they think they have enough to send him
back from whence he came.

Almost like the guy here in San Antonio who claims to
be an American, with all documents to prove it, that
the government is sending to Mexico. Of course he
claimed he was an illegal upteen times to get out of
crimes committed by being voluntarily returning to
Mexico and then coming back into the U.S. using some
kind of documentation.

He was legally naturalized with a green card. You got caught in your own xenophobic predispositions.

[xrayzebra]

He was legally naturalized with a green card. You got caught in your own xenophobic predispositions.


Who was legally naturalized. Xenophobic? Is that good
or bad?

Lets see, the administrative branch of government wants
to send him back and ask the judicial to approve. If they
do approve two out of three aint bad.

And I am xenophobic.

[xrayzebra]

xrayzebra how do you manage to have such a narrow column (and wide stance)

We always know how you stand. So you don't count.

[some_user86]

Who was legally naturalized. Xenophobic? Is that good
or bad?

Lets see, the administrative branch of government wants
to send him back and ask the judicial to approve. If they
do approve two out of three aint bad.

And I am xenophobic.

I've never had anyone admit to me that they were racist before. Wow.

[rasho8]

I've never had anyone admit to me that they were racist before. Wow.

Xenophobia is not racism. You can be white and be xenophobic about white people. It just means you do not like immigrants and aliens.

Xenophobia is fear of any outside culture or being.

[some_user86]

Xenophobia is not racism. You can be white and be xenophobic about white people. It just means you do not like immigrants and aliens.

Xenophobia is fear of any outside culture or being.

In almost every case, the root cause is the same, regardless of skin color. It is an irrational fear of another person due to their culture. Phenotypic features only help to identify someone from this other culture. Are you actually arguing that xenophobia is somehow less offensive than racism?

Xenophobia: intense or irrational dislike or fear of people from other countries
Racism: hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
Prejudice: unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, esp. of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group.

The root cause is still the same. Prejudice from unreasonable attitudes to another group.

I am surprised to not only find someone admit that they were prejudiced, but to have someone defend that position. Unbelievable.

[xrayzebra]

I am surprised to not only find someone admit that they were prejudiced, but to have someone defend that position. Unbelievable.

Gee, you love all people. What a guy.

There are a lot of people I don't like. Yeah, might say
prejudice. Guess everyone cant be like you and like/love
everyone, well except me, so guess that makes you
prejudice, right? :lol

You are so full of it and yourself.

[some_user86]

Gee, you love all people. What a guy.

There are a lot of people I don't like. Yeah, might say
prejudice. Guess everyone cant be like you and like/love
everyone, well except me, so guess that makes you
prejudice, right? :lol

You are so full of it and yourself.

I never said I like all individuals. But, yeah, I don't try to make generalizations about all cultures based on ideas that border on delusional. Like, for example, I wouldn't like to say all white Christians are murdering, raping, fear mongers who exploit the wealth of other cultures. Now, that thought may flash across my mind every so often when I meet a person predisposed to xenophobic or racist thoughts such as yourself. I mean, what better to fight prejudice than to become prejudiced yourself, right? But, no, I don't let those type of thoughts take control over me. Because if I did that, you see, I might miss out on the vast majority of white Christians who are not murdering, raping, fear mongers that exploit the wealth of our cultures. And I would bet that more than 80% of whites in America have a good, clean heart that is accepting of other cultures and traditions. So, no, I don't let minorities like yourself cloud my thoughts with prejudice.

Prejudice is act of making generalization and assumptions without basing on actual experience. I think have experienced enough of you to understand at least some of your attitudes. Can't say I know you that well. But your posts convey more than enough experience for me to gain a somewhat slight understanding of you. I would hesitate to apply any generalizations that flash across my brain to you concretely, though. I don't know you that well.

Oh, look... silly me. I just fed a troll.

[Wild Cobra]

Actually he had a green card. He was legally here and naturalized from what the reports said.
Well, I missed part of the first article till now, but naturalized is wrong. That means citizenship, yet he is not a citizen. He is a "permanent legal resident" which does give him legal and judicial rights he wouldn't otherwise have, and the right to work. This status was granted to him in 1996. Before that, was he here legally, or illegally? I will assume legally as a refugee.

What they are doing is the same thing that OJ got. OJ was found not guilty in a murder trial that required a different burden of proof than civil law does. This action is no less fair than what OJ Simpson got. To argue for Lemorin to be set free would be the same as saying OJ should have never been found guilty in civil court, since he was found innocent in the murder trial.

Consider this. A legal resident alien for 20 years? Part of the dislike for him is likely that he didn't achieve citizenship. His allegiance to the USA is far more in question than if he was a citizen. They wouldn't be able to deport him except in rare cases where granted citizenship can be revoked.

[xrayzebra]

I never said I like all individuals. But, yeah, I don't try to make generalizations about all cultures based on ideas that border on delusional. Like, for example, I wouldn't like to say all white Christians are murdering, raping, fear mongers who exploit the wealth of other cultures. Now, that thought may flash across my mind every so often when I meet a person predisposed to xenophobic or racist thoughts such as yourself. I mean, what better to fight prejudice than to become prejudiced yourself, right? But, no, I don't let those type of thoughts take control over me. Because if I did that, you see, I might miss out on the vast majority of white Christians who are not murdering, raping, fear mongers that exploit the wealth of our cultures. And I would bet that more than 80% of whites in America have a good, clean heart that is accepting of other cultures and traditions. So, no, I don't let minorities like yourself cloud my thoughts with prejudice.

Prejudice is act of making generalization and assumptions without basing on actual experience. I think have experienced enough of you to understand at least some of your attitudes. Can't say I know you that well. But your posts convey more than enough experience for me to gain a somewhat slight understanding of you. I would hesitate to apply any generalizations that flash across my brain to you concretely, though. I don't know you that well.

Oh, look... silly me. I just fed a troll.

And I can tell you never make judgements either. I
can tell by your little lecture. I would love to talk to
you in say fifty years.

You are such a silly little twerp with such a small mind.
But a good dimm-o-crap I would guess.

[xrayzebra]

no really xray how come everything
you type ends up in narrow column
width like this?
Do you just press enter after every
few words or what?

Just to aggravate you I guess. I really never thought about
it one way or the other. But I would guess it is because I
have my font enlarged somewhat and it makes the box
smaller I type in. Really simple explanation, but I like
the other one better. Just to aggravate you...... :p:

[some_user86]

And I can tell you never make judgements either. I
can tell by your little lecture. I would love to talk to
you in say fifty years.

You are such a silly little twerp with such a small mind.
But a good dimm-o-crap I would guess.

That's brilliant.

What's going to happen to me in 50 years? I am gonna suddenly become a racist old fogey making judgement calls on random internet posters?

Of course I make judgements. But I try to stop and re-evaluate my position to see if I am right or wrong and to determine why I made that judgement. I would hate to see what I have become the day that I let my stubborn pride prevent me from seeing the reality of a person based on my own contrived generalizations of another culture.

I am absolutely offended that you would call me a Democrat (just as I would be equally offended that you would call me a Republican). I am not into the partisan crap that you seem to enjoy. Kinda hard to put labels on someone when they don't fit your preconceived notions, right?

Now if you'll excuse me, I am heading out to the lab. My plasmids don't make judgement calls on me. :)

[xrayzebra]

That's brilliant.

What's going to happen to me in 50 years? I am gonna suddenly become a racist old fogey making judgement calls on random internet posters?

Of course I make judgements. But I try to stop and re-evaluate my position to see if I am right or wrong and to determine why I made that judgement. I would hate to see what I have become the day that I let my stubborn pride prevent me from seeing the reality of a person based on my own contrived generalizations of another culture.

I am absolutely offended that you would call me a Democrat (just as I would be equally offended that you would call me a Republican). I am not into the partisan crap that you seem to enjoy. Kinda hard to put labels on someone when they don't fit your preconceived notions, right?

Now if you'll excuse me, I am heading out to the lab. My plasmids don't make judgement calls on me. :)

You have the absolute right to be offended. And I have
the absolute right to not care if you are offended.

Not into partisan crap. Guess that means you take no
stand on anything except your judgement of others.
What a guy. A guy with with a mind like a clean slate,
well almost.

And about you in fifty years. Naw, you want be much
of anything, just taking care of those plasmids that
don't make judgement calls, I would guess. But
strangely plasmids do make choices, it seems.

Plasmids can be considered to be independent life-forms similar to viruses, since both are capable of autonomous replication in suitable (host) environments. However the plasmid-host relationship tends to be more symbiotic than parasitic (although this can also occur for viruses, for example with Endoviruses), since plasmids can endow their hosts with useful packages of DNA to assist mutual survival in times of severe stress. For example, plasmids can convey antibiotic resistance to host bacteria, who may then survive along with their life-saving guests who are carried along into future host generations.

So be careful when you work with them...... :p:

Oh, and does it appear I selected you at random. Sorry,
I left that impression. Because it isn't true. I did
select you and not at random.

[FromWayDowntown]

What they are doing is the same thing that OJ got. OJ was found not guilty in a murder trial that required a different burden of proof than civil law does. This action is no less fair than what OJ Simpson got. To argue for Lemorin to be set free would be the same as saying OJ should have never been found guilty in civil court, since he was found innocent in the murder trial.

That's beyond asinine. The government brought charges against him that it couldn't prove. Rather than simply let the man go about his life, the government should, instead, find a way to diminish it's burden and seek to nevertheless impose some sort of punishment -- essentially as a way to save face. There are substantive difference between those who feel that they've been injured by the acts of another seeking civil recompense after a criminal acquittal and a governmental agency seeking a secondary, quasi-criminal remedy after it was unable to prove its case in a criminal trial. Essentially, the government wants a second bite at the apple as to a man who was found not guilty. In OJ's case, there were different parties making different arguments and advancing entirely different legal theories in their effort to get an entirely different remedy. That's not true in Lemorin's case -- the arguments are the same, only now the government might have a slightly more favorable burden.

This is absurd persecution. OJ's case was proper remediation.


Consider this. A legal resident alien for 20 years? Part of the dislike for him is likely that he didn't achieve citizenship. His allegiance to the USA is far more in question than if he was a citizen. They wouldn't be able to deport him except in rare cases where granted citizenship can be revoked.

Nice assumptions. Suppose that he applied for citizenship tomorrow, wouldn't all of those arguments fall apart.

You seem to believe that just because the guy was suspected of participating in a terror plot -- one that could not be proven -- that he must have actually been doing just that and that he's not guilty merely because the government's burden was too high. I'd suggest that when jurors come out and are unequivocal about their belief that there was no proof to support a conviction of this guy, it's more than likely that he actually wasn't participating in the supposed terror plot. More than that, I don't think the fact that he was suspected supports deportation; nor do I assume that all long-term resident aliens who don't apply for citizenship are somehow anti-American.

[clambake]

who's your ghost writer, ray? wiki word for word?

[clambake]

That's beyond asinine. The government brought charges against him that it couldn't prove. Rather than simply let the man go about his life, the government should, instead, find a way to diminish it's burden and seek to nevertheless impose some sort of punishment -- essentially as a way to save face. There are substantive difference between those who feel that they've been injured by the acts of another seeking civil recompense after a criminal acquittal and a governmental agency seeking a secondary, quasi-criminal remedy after it was unable to prove its case in a criminal trial. Essentially, the government wants a second bite at the apple as to a man who was found not guilty. In OJ's case, there were different parties making different arguments and advancing entirely different legal theories in their effort to get an entirely different remedy. That's not true in Lemorin's case -- the arguments are the same, only now the government might have a slightly more favorable burden.

This is absurd persecution. OJ's case was proper remediation.



Nice assumptions. Suppose that he applied for citizenship tomorrow, wouldn't all of those arguments fall apart.

You seem to believe that just because the guy was suspected of participating in a terror plot -- one that could not be proven -- that he must have actually been doing just that and that he's not guilty merely because the government's burden was too high. I'd suggest that when jurors come out and are unequivocal about their belief that there was no proof to support a conviction of this guy, it's more than likely that he actually wasn't participating in the supposed terror plot. More than that, I don't think the fact that he was suspected supports deportation; nor do I assume that all long-term resident aliens who don't apply for citizenship are somehow anti-American.
all of these thoughts are lost in the "wild coma court of justice".

[xrayzebra]

who's your ghost writer, ray? wiki word for word?

Don't you think it is possible they took my words...... :lol

Yeah, it is wiki, so what! I didn't claim them as my words
and wiki is not necessarily anyone persons words to begin
with. Even you could post there. I was just trying to
be a little bit fictitious. Okay, give me a break. damn!

[some_user86]

You have the absolute right to be offended. And I have
the absolute right to not care if you are offended.

Not into partisan crap. Guess that means you take no
stand on anything except your judgement of others.
What a guy. A guy with with a mind like a clean slate,
well almost.

And about you in fifty years. Naw, you want be much
of anything, just taking care of those plasmids that
don't make judgement calls, I would guess. But
strangely plasmids do make choices, it seems.

Plasmids can be considered to be independent life-forms similar to viruses, since both are capable of autonomous replication in suitable (host) environments. However the plasmid-host relationship tends to be more symbiotic than parasitic (although this can also occur for viruses, for example with Endoviruses), since plasmids can endow their hosts with useful packages of DNA to assist mutual survival in times of severe stress. For example, plasmids can convey antibiotic resistance to host bacteria, who may then survive along with their life-saving guests who are carried along into future host generations.

So be careful when you work with them...... :p:

Oh, and does it appear I selected you at random. Sorry,
I left that impression. Because it isn't true. I did
select you and not at random.

Had some free time here at the lab... I saw clambake's post, and yeah, that had to be the most brilliant copy and paste job I have ever seen. Also shows that you can't trust wikipedia for all your information. That has to be the most bizzare and incorrect summaries I've ever read of plasmid biotechnology. Would one consider any piece of DNA that can be exploits replication techniques of a cell as a living organism? I don't think so.

I suppose if one doesn't go along partisan lines, in your mind, that person can't stand for anything? Really? How about that the two party system doesn't serve the need of the people. Most of us pick the party of least evil, but both, are in essence evil. How can any self-respecting fiscal conservative, such as myself, call themself a Republican, when the last three Republican administrations have shown no such fiscal responsibility? Of course, the Democrats do no better most of the time, but at least they have one recent administration that managed to balance the budget. The Democrats! No, there is no viable party for independents like me. I like being able to switch back and forth. I don't want to tow along to the party line. It is the true Political Freedom (TM).

Ray, you are an odd, odd man. I am curious as to what makes you tick. Why are you afraid of other cultures or people from other countries? If there is a substantial reason for your distaste, perhaps you can teach us so that we may all can learn.

[xrayzebra]

Ray, you are an odd, odd man. I am curious as to what makes you tick. Why are you afraid of other cultures or people from other countries? If there is a substantial reason for your distaste, perhaps you can teach us so that we may all can learn.

Well, strange you state that. I spent many years in
other cultures and people of other lands. And enjoyed
it. The strange thing I always find about people like you
is that you are so quick to judge. And the really funny part
of your sense of reasoning is that you don't understand that
all cultures have their prejudices. You have already
judge me and formed a prejudice, although you will
deny that. I too have formed an opinion, right, wrong,
or indifferent. But you do twek my interest because you
work in a field, I think, that I would love to find out more
about.

I spent many years in other countries. I observed my
country from that point of view. I spoke and defended
our country, political and otherwise. I don't say this from
a "bragging" point, but as a fact.

And yes I am an old fart. So What! Experience is not a
good teacher? I think it serves it's purpose. I am a
conservative in the the true sense of the word. I think
our country was built on traditional values and as we
destroy them we destroy what made us great.

Bigoted, maybe in some ways. But you are not the one
to judge me, because you have no idea who I am. Nor
should I judge you. I just don't agree with the ideas you
have shown on this forum. Prejudice I am in many ways.
But so are you. You have shown it and proven it. But that
is nature. It is nothing to be ashamed of.

Like Joe said, he was made fun of because he had the
name of Jose. But even though I differ with him on his
political views, I think Joe is more than like a good family
man and with strong family ties. I like him and enjoy
sharing views with him. So there! Stick it you ear.

What makes me tick. Time. And the alternative isn't
just that great. And curiosity. Which obviously makes
you tick too. Otherwise you wouldn't be chasing those
little thing-my-jigs in the Lab.

[rasho8]

In almost every case, the root cause is the same, regardless of skin color. It is an irrational fear of another person due to their culture. Phenotypic features only help to identify someone from this other culture. Are you actually arguing that xenophobia is somehow less offensive than racism?

Xenophobia: intense or irrational dislike or fear of people from other countries
Racism: hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
Prejudice: unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, esp. of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group.

The root cause is still the same. Prejudice from unreasonable attitudes to another group.

I am surprised to not only find someone admit that they were prejudiced, but to have someone defend that position. Unbelievable.

I never said Xenophobia was any worse/better than racism. I said they were different.

Whats insulting is you assume I am defending someone when I am correcting your inability to accept his faults. And then you don't even bother to read what I write, you assume I am supporting xenophobia.

Thats sad and you need to check your preconceptions at the door when talking politics.

The reason people have so much trouble is if I say I am a Republican, you will hear what you want to hear me say regardless of what I ACTUALLY say. As proven in this thread.

[some_user86]

I never said Xenophobia was any worse/better than racism. I said they were different.

Whats insulting is you assume I am defending someone when I am correcting your inability to accept his faults. And then you don't even bother to read what I write, you assume I am supporting xenophobia.

Thats sad and you need to check your preconceptions at the door when talking politics.

The reason people have so much trouble is if I say I am a Republican, you will hear what you want to hear me say regardless of what I ACTUALLY say. As proven in this thread.

You're right. I assumed the worse, and that was wrong.

I guess that makes me slightly hypocritical? Or I was just having an off-day.

If you were just trying to correct me, then I guess you're right. I jumped the gun.

[some_user86]

Well, strange you state that. I spent many years in
other cultures and people of other lands. And enjoyed
it. The strange thing I always find about people like you
is that you are so quick to judge. And the really funny part
of your sense of reasoning is that you don't understand that
all cultures have their prejudices. You have already
judge me and formed a prejudice, although you will
deny that. I too have formed an opinion, right, wrong,
or indifferent. But you do twek my interest because you
work in a field, I think, that I would love to find out more
about.

I spent many years in other countries. I observed my
country from that point of view. I spoke and defended
our country, political and otherwise. I don't say this from
a "bragging" point, but as a fact.

And yes I am an old fart. So What! Experience is not a
good teacher? I think it serves it's purpose. I am a
conservative in the the true sense of the word. I think
our country was built on traditional values and as we
destroy them we destroy what made us great.

Bigoted, maybe in some ways. But you are not the one
to judge me, because you have no idea who I am. Nor
should I judge you. I just don't agree with the ideas you
have shown on this forum. Prejudice I am in many ways.
But so are you. You have shown it and proven it. But that
is nature. It is nothing to be ashamed of.

Like Joe said, he was made fun of because he had the
name of Jose. But even though I differ with him on his
political views, I think Joe is more than like a good family
man and with strong family ties. I like him and enjoy
sharing views with him. So there! Stick it you ear.

What makes me tick. Time. And the alternative isn't
just that great. And curiosity. Which obviously makes
you tick too. Otherwise you wouldn't be chasing those
little thing-my-jigs in the Lab.

You yourself said you were xenophobic. My first statement was designed more as a side-swipe. I was surprised when you actually admitted it.

I think this nation was founded on a tremendous merging of ideals. And the reason why it has continuously succeeded is because it continues to take the best of other cultures and blends it with its own unique set of values. We are a constantly evolving culture. So, the idea of "traditional" values, I believe, is anti-thetical to the basis of this country. Even the definition of traditional values is continuously changing. I follow what I consider to be traditional values. But are those the same values that existed 40 years ago? No. My traditional values and your traditional values wouldn't coincide either. It's the reason why I prefer not to tell people how to live their lives. It might slip out every once in a while when I am peeved about something else (like I was over the weekend).

But, as to your earlier question, you stated yourself that you were xenophobic. And I am all the more surprised to hear that you spent time immersed in other cultures, and yet you would still admit that. You never found anything in those other countries that you found unique and that you adapted as your own? It is that ability to discern a tradition or value from another culture into our own that makes America the country it is. We are an accepting people. You'll find that only a small sliver of the population is pure-blood from the original colonial days. Most of us have some post-revolution immigrant blood in us. And those immigrants most definitely came from a different culture and from different values than the original colonials. So, I don't understand how accepting new immigrants now can hurt the country.

[rasho8]

You're right. I assumed the worse, and that was wrong.

I guess that makes me slightly hypocritical? Or I was just having an off-day.

If you were just trying to correct me, then I guess you're right. I jumped the gun.

Now we can start with a clean slate and actually listen to each other next time around :clap