State of the Knicks

[jacobdrj]

With Donnie Walsh now the head honcho in the Knicks organization, in my opinion, they now have a combination of one of the best GM's in the NBA (who has been given huge concessions) as well as still retaining the best evaluator of draft day talent out there in Isiah Thomas.

I believe that with the addition of a quality coach, and some house cleaning, the Knicks have a great chance at regaining prominence within the next 2 seasons.

What are your thoughts?

[monosylab1k]

the best evaluator of draft day talent out there in Isiah Thomas.
Um, what?

[Findog]

Um, what?

He's one of the best, if not the best. I'd hire him as director of scouting for sure.

[jacobdrj]

Tracy McGrady
Damon Stodamire
David Lee
Channing Frye
Marcus Camby

The record speaks for itself.

[monosylab1k]

Tracy McGrady
Damon Stodamire
David Lee
Channing Frye
Marcus Camby

The record speaks for itself.
When you have a top 10 pick every year you're going to hit on more than a few.

How about drafting mid-2nd round talent with the 20th pick in the draft in 06?

[monosylab1k]

T-Mac was drafted in the "let's get a high school kid!" frenzy. Camby didn't blossom until Isiah was long gone. David Lee & Frye are nice 20 minute a game guys but let's not make them out to be badasses. Picking Damon Stoudamire is nothing to brag about because everybody who had that draft pick was going to take Stoudamire.

And if he's such a great draft talent evaluator why did he trade out of the 07 draft for Eddy Curry?

[stretch]

T-Mac was drafted in the "let's get a high school kid!" frenzy. Camby didn't blossom until Isiah was long gone. David Lee & Frye are nice 20 minute a game guys but let's not make them out to be badasses. Picking Damon Stoudamire is nothing to brag about because everybody who had that draft pick was going to take Stoudamire.

And if he's such a great draft talent evaluator why did he trade out of the 07 draft for Eddy Curry?
Curry is a fantastic talent. just lazy and terrible coaching.

[monosylab1k]

Curry is a fantastic talent. just lazy and terrible coaching.
I know that.

But if you're a great draft talent evaluator, you trade yourself OUT of the Durant/Oden sweepstakes?

[stretch]

I know that.

But if you're a great draft talent evaluator, you trade yourself OUT of the Durant/Oden sweepstakes?
I can't argue that. I just can't blame him for wanting Curry either, has he had proven that he was more than capable of being a major force at the NBA level, and is one of the best post players the game has.

[JamStone]

When you have a top 10 pick every year you're going to hit on more than a few.

How about drafting mid-2nd round talent with the 20th pick in the draft in 06?


The Knicks needed a defensive minded small forward. What small forward after Balkman would have been better in that draft?

Isiah also identified James Jones and Trevor Ariza in the second round, David Lee with the last pick of the first round in a thin draft, was criticized for taking Channing Frye as high as he did but turned out to be approximately where he should have been drafted in that draft, Jamaal Tinsley with the second to last draft pick in 2001. He was also one of the driving forces to acquire Jermaine O'Neal before Jermaine O'Neal had star status.

Isiah is a very good evaluator of talent. I don't know if he's the best in the NBA, but he's very good. He mostly relies his evaluation on athletic ability first then skill second then other intangibles after that, and that's why he's generally solid in evaluating talent. Athleticism generally succeeds over just mere skill in the NBA.

[JamStone]

I know that.

But if you're a great draft talent evaluator, you trade yourself OUT of the Durant/Oden sweepstakes?


That was two years after the Curry trade (summer 2005), before Durant and Oden were even in college and cemented themselves as the best prospects in 2007, and before either were assuredly going to declare for the 2007 draft. It is also a moot point since that Knicks pick in the "Durant/Oden sweepstakes" ended up being the 9th pick, Joakim Noah.

[jacobdrj]

There seem to be plenty of GM's who get 1st rounder after 1st rounder and blow it more than 50% of the time.
People generally hated IT's picks... yet every single one of them has been, at the very least, a serviceable NBA player, and at best, the scoring champion/DPOY.

[monosylab1k]

The Knicks needed a defensive minded small forward. What small forward after Balkman would have been better in that draft?
Well Balkman isn't exactly good right now, but that's niether here nor there. The fact that nobody was even thinking of this guy being a 1st round pick means that Isiah obviously didn't evaluate the talent in that draft too well. He could have gotten a 1st round player and then traded up in the 2nd round to get Balkman. If he didn't think anybody was worth taking in the 1st round, then trade the pick away.

That's like the Cowboys taking Quincy Carter in the 2nd round when he was evaluated as a 4th/5th round talent.

[monosylab1k]

That was two years after the Curry trade, before Durant and Oden were in college and cemented themselves as the best prospects in 2007, and before either were assuredly going to declare for the 2007 draft. It is also a moot point since that Knicks pick in the "Durant/Oden sweepstakes" ended up being the 9th pick, Joakim Noah.
people were talking about Greg Oden when he was a junior in HS.

[jacobdrj]

T-Mac was drafted in the "let's get a high school kid!" frenzy. Camby didn't blossom until Isiah was long gone. David Lee & Frye are nice 20 minute a game guys but let's not make them out to be badasses. Picking Damon Stoudamire is nothing to brag about because everybody who had that draft pick was going to take Stoudamire.

And if he's such a great draft talent evaluator why did he trade out of the 07 draft for Eddy Curry?

Because he is a sucky GM, hence him being replaced by Walsh. Kind of like Checks and Balances...
I never said they were badasses, but they are still in the NBA, and more than just scrubs.

[JamStone]

Well Balkman isn't exactly good right now, but that's niether here nor there. The fact that nobody was even thinking of this guy being a 1st round pick means that Isiah obviously didn't evaluate the talent in that draft too well. He could have gotten a 1st round player and then traded up in the 2nd round to get Balkman. If he didn't think anybody was worth taking in the 1st round, then trade the pick away.

That's like the Cowboys taking Quincy Carter in the 2nd round when he was evaluated as a 4th/5th round talent.

Just like 90% of NBA GMs and draft experts had Darko Milicic a top 3 prospect in 2003.

[JamStone]

people were talking about Greg Oden when he was a junior in HS.


Missing the point because it wasn't certain Oden was going to be in the 2007 draft, certainly not in the summer of 2005.

[monosylab1k]

Just like 90% of NBA GMs and draft experts had Darko Milicic a top 3 prospect in 2003.
so Renaldo Balkman with the 20th pick in the draft was the right pick?

knowing that no other NBA GM has this guy on the radar until the early-to-mid 2nd round, you think taking Balkman with the 20th pick was a smart idea?

[JamStone]

T-Mac was drafted in the "let's get a high school kid!" frenzy. Camby didn't blossom until Isiah was long gone. David Lee & Frye are nice 20 minute a game guys but let's not make them out to be badasses. Picking Damon Stoudamire is nothing to brag about because everybody who had that draft pick was going to take Stoudamire.

And if he's such a great draft talent evaluator why did he trade out of the 07 draft for Eddy Curry?


Compare those draft picks to players selected before and after they were.

He didn't trade out of the 2007 Oden/Durant sweepstakes with the Curry trade. If you actually remembered the trade, you would recall that the trade involved a right for Chicago to swap picks in the 2007 draft. It did not outright give the Bulls the Knicks draft pick because they couldn't trade consecutive future first round draft picks under the CBA. Isiah's stubbornness would not allow him to believe the Knicks would be a lottery team in 2007, therefore that pick was assumed to be a middle of the first round pick, not a lottery pick or a chance to select Oden or Durant.

[JamStone]

so Renaldo Balkman with the 20th pick in the draft was the right pick?

knowing that no NBA GM has this guy on the radar until the early-to-mid 2nd round, you think taking Balkman with the 20th pick was a smart idea?


No right or wrong pick when you're that late in the first round. By that selection, all the sure fire picks are gone in the high lottery. It's about finding a diamond in the rough or a player that fits what you're looking for. Was it the right pick? Not necessarily. Was it the wrong pick? Not necessarily. The only player that you could argue turned out better in that draft is Rajon Rondo, and with Marbury, Francis, and Nate Robinson on the roster at the time, a point guard was not the way to go. Who else would have been a better selection in that draft?

[monosylab1k]

Who else would have been a better selection in that draft?
If you can't answer that question then you trade out of the pick. You don't take a 2nd rounder.

[jacobdrj]

If you can't answer that question then you trade out of the pick. You don't take a 2nd rounder.

Again, that has to do with his GMing abilities... With the (theoretical) separation of powers, assuming IT will continue as head scout, this problem should be alleviated.

[JamStone]

If you can't answer that question then you trade out of the pick. You don't take a 2nd rounder.


Reports were that the Knicks tried to trade the pick but there were no takers. The Knicks couldn't get value from the trade and they liked Balkman. They took Balkman. He was a projected second round pick. But, looking back at that draft, that's about where he should have been picked. So who's right and who's wrong? Again, most people, NBA GM's, scouts and draft experts included, believed Darko was a top 3 prospect in 2003. Just because people regarded Balkman as a second round talent, it doesn't mean they were right.

[monosylab1k]

Just because people regarded Balkman as a second round talent, it doesn't mean they were right.
You might want to take another look at Balkman before saying that.

I agree that just cuz he's regarded as a 2nd rounder doesn't mean he is. Paul Millsap was perceived as possibly going undrafted that year.

But the point is that Balkman's perceived value was that of a 2nd rounder. His value was set by NBA GM's as a 2nd round talent. So why waste a 1st round pick on him? If they couldn't trade out of the pick, why not take a flyer on one of those guys projected as a 1st round pick? 2nd round picks in the NBA are one of the cheapest commodities there are, you can easily move into the 2nd round for Balkman.

[JamStone]

You might want to take another look at Balkman before saying that.

I agree that just cuz he's regarded as a 2nd rounder doesn't mean he is. Paul Millsap was perceived as possibly going undrafted that year.

But the point is that Balkman's perceived value was that of a 2nd rounder. His value was set by NBA GM's as a 2nd round talent. So why waste a 1st round pick on him? If they couldn't trade out of the pick, why not take a flyer on one of those guys projected as a 1st round pick? 2nd round picks in the NBA are one of the cheapest commodities there are, you can easily move into the 2nd round for Balkman.


Because sometimes perceived second round talent becomes Carlos Boozer, Rashard Lewis, Gilbert Arenas, or Manu Ginobili. If they re-draft those players from their respective drafts, are they still second round picks even though that's what most NBA GMs perceived them to be before the draft?

You're trying to force an argument that has little merit. At the end of the day, almost all draft picks in any particular draft are generally crap shoots after the top 3-5 picks. And, even the top 3-5 picks can end up being Darko or Kwame Brown or Olowokandi or Darius Miles or Marcus Fizer. There's no sure fire thing when it comes to gauging absolutely everything in a prospect, from talent and skill to mentality to character. Sometimes teams select projected second round talent in the first round because they just fit the team needs and the team's character. Jason Maxiell was a huge reach at #25 for the Pistons in 2005 because of his height, but he fit. Andrew Bynum was a huge reach for the Lakers at #10 in that same draft, but the Lakers wanted elite size at center and he may very well be that right fit. Kevin Martin was a second round talent in 2004, but was the type of scorer Geoff Petrie liked. Devean George was a huge reach for Jerry West at #23 in 1999, but he was exactly what they were looking for as a complimentary player at small forward. Same with Derek Fisher at #24 in 1996.

In the late first round, you rarely get starter type players, much less star players. It's a gamble whoever you take because the sure fire talent in most drafts is top 5, at the most top 10. So, taking a projected second round pick in the late first round is fine if he fits what your team is looking for or you're just hoping he's a diamond in the rough that might become a much, much better player than he is projected.

[monosylab1k]

Because sometimes perceived second round talent becomes Carlos Boozer, Rashard Lewis, Gilbert Arenas, or Manu Ginobili. If they re-draft those players from their respective drafts, are they still second round picks even though that's what most NBA GMs perceived them to be before the draft?
That's not the point.

The point is that if you KNOW that nobody is taking Carlos Boozer until the 2nd round, why would you waste a 1st round pick on him? Even if after he proves he's better than that, it doesn't matter, his price was set at "2nd round" so why pay more?

Why pay $5 for a cheeseburger that only costs $2? Even if the cheeseburger turns out to be good enough to pay $10 for, the price was set at $2. Why pay more?

If you redraft after the fact, yes Carlos Boozer is one of first guys off the board. But ON DRAFT DAY nobody was going to take him with that pick. If you know you want Carlos Boozer, and you KNOW that nobody is going to take him until the 2nd round, why waste a 1st round pick on him?

[Findog]

I still can't believe Darko went ahead of all the guys that he did, and that Josh Howard lasted until pick 29.

[monosylab1k]

The Cowboys wanted Quincy Carter. Everybody knew it. But nobody else wanted Quincy Carter until Day 2 of the draft.

Why waste a 2nd round pick on Quincy Carter when you know you can get him later?

Everybody says that's a stupid pick now that Quincy Carter failed miserably. But I don't care if he turned out to be better than Peyton Manning, taking Carter in the 2nd round ON THAT DAY was a stupid pick no matter what he did.

It doesn't matter that Tom Brady turned out to be the best player in his draft class. His value ON DRAFT DAY was that of a 5th-6th round pick. If the Patriots took him with their first round pick, it's a stupid pick regardless of how Brady turned out, because the price for Tom Brady was already set at the 6th round.

[Findog]

What's stupid is not surrendering to Coach O when you have the chance ladies.

[ambchang]

T-Mac was drafted in the "let's get a high school kid!" frenzy. Camby didn't blossom until Isiah was long gone. David Lee & Frye are nice 20 minute a game guys but let's not make them out to be badasses. Picking Damon Stoudamire is nothing to brag about because everybody who had that draft pick was going to take Stoudamire.

And if he's such a great draft talent evaluator why did he trade out of the 07 draft for Eddy Curry?

T-Mac was drafted in 1997, back then, KG was in his second year, and Bryant and Jermaine O'Neal just finished his rookie year. The craze didn't start until Johnathan Bender was selected as the 5th pick in 1999 (ironically, by the Raptors, but then traded to the Pacers for Antonio Davis), and hit full throttle in 2001, with Kwame Brown, Chandler and Curry going 3 of the top 4.

The reason for the high school craze was because of the success of high school players like T-Mac.

Camby was the right pick at the time, and his durability was his main issue.

David Lee was picked 30th in the draft, it is very impressive to get a rotational player that deep in the draft. Of course, there are other notable talents that were picked after Lee such as Brandon Bass, Monta Ellis, Ryan Gomes and Ronny Turiaf, but all things considered, this was a very solid pick.

Frye did very well in this rookie year, and was in the talks for ROY early in the year. Again, there aren't that many players who are better than him lower in the draft. There's Bynum, Danny Granger, Jason Maxiell and Monta Ellis. This is a borderline pick, but it wasn't horrible.

Also note that in the same draft, the Knicks acquired Nate Robinson, who has proven to be a valuable part of the dismal Knicks.

Finally, Stoudemire was an upset pick. People were rooting for Ed O'Bannon throughout. The pick was largely criticized in Toronto as the first pick the franchise made.

[JamStone]

That's not the point.

The point is that if you KNOW that nobody is taking Carlos Boozer until the 2nd round, why would you waste a 1st round pick on him? Even if after he proves he's better than that, it doesn't matter, his price was set at "2nd round" so why pay more?

Why pay $5 for a cheeseburger that only costs $2? Even if the cheeseburger turns out to be good enough to pay $10 for, the price was set at $2. Why pay more?

If you redraft after the fact, yes Carlos Boozer is one of first guys off the board. But ON DRAFT DAY nobody was going to take him with that pick. If you know you want Carlos Boozer, and you KNOW that nobody is going to take him until the 2nd round, why waste a 1st round pick on him?

Your argument is ridiculous. Not every NBA GM knows what every single other NBA GM is thinking. And, not every NBA GM has the same exact draft board as every single other NBA GM. It's not like they all go to nbadraft.net or draftexpress.com and say, yup, that's what everyone else must be thinking. And, then there is draft positioning. If a team has a #25 pick in the first round and a #53 pick in the second round, and the guy they want is projected somewhere between #40-45, and they can't trade their first round pick, how do they get that guy without reaching with the first round pick?

And, especially with a guy like Isiah Thomas, who other GMs are not going to just casually let him know what they're thinking and where they value certain prospects, you can't just assume a certain prospect is not going to get drafted by a certain pick just because draftexpress has them there. You might miss out on the guy your team wants if you think that way.

Your logic simply doesn't make sense. Again, the draft in general is a gamble. Even top picks aren't sure fire great picks. Later in the first round, it's better to find and select a player that fits your team than listen to what "draft experts" say you should take.

[monosylab1k]

Your argument is ridiculous. Not every NBA GM knows what every single other NBA GM is thinking.
So you think there was another GM who wanted Balkman in the 1st round?

[monosylab1k]

If a team has a #25 pick in the first round and a #53 pick in the second round, and the guy they want is projected somewhere between #40-45, and they can't trade their first round pick, how do they get that guy without reaching with the first round pick?
Um, trade up in the 2nd round? It's not that tough. GM's aren't killing each other for 2nd round draft positioning. Most GM's use the 2nd round to draft some bullshit player they'll just stash in Europe anyways.

You don't take a guy that's clearly a 2nd rounder with a 1st round pick. That's just irresponsible, and an extremely simplistic view of things.

[JamStone]

You're criticizing Isiah over stupid shit. Was there another team that would have drafted Renaldo Balkman in the first round? Probably not, but you and I certainly don't know that for sure. And, at the time, Isiah claimed he had indications that Phoenix was prepared to draft Balkman with the #21 pick. Now whether that's true or not, again, neither you or I know for sure.

The Knicks didn't have a second round pick in 2006 and again, you're talking about Isiah Thomas, who isn't exactly well liked by other GMs. Could he have traded for a second round pick? Very likely. Would he probably have to give up more than the average GM to get a second round pick? Very likely. Were there other prospects that were drafted after Balkman that have turned out to be clearly better than him? One, maybe two. Was it a good draft pick at #20. Probably not. Does that draft pick mean he's a bad evaluator of talent? Simply no. It means he reached with a draft pick for a player that he definitely wanted and may have felt could be drafted before their second first round draft pick at the end of that first round. He got the player he wanted. There weren't any mind blowing prospects left that were by far better prospects than Balkman when the Knicks selected him.

It's like killing Atlanta for drafting Dion Glover with the #20 pick in 1999, until you look who was left on the draft board and realize there weren't really any other great prospects left except for Kirilenko, an international player and Manu Ginobili who no one else knew about either.

When there isn't much left on the draftboard in terms of good talent, you can't get much value for that pick. So it's not wrong to just select a player you like even if it's reaching.

[monosylab1k]

Good lord, why am I arguing about this?

I say "Isiah Thomas can't work the draft for shit" and JamStone disagrees. Fine. Everyone has their own opinions.

But I keep repeating my same argument. It really makes no sense for me to do that.

Why don't I just do this instead:

Isiah Thomas

1995-96 Toronto Raptors 21-61
1996-97 Toronto Raptors 30-52
1997-98 Toronto Raptors 16-66
1998-99 Toronto Raptors 23-27

2003-04 New York Knickerbockers 39-43
2004-05 New York Knickerbockers 33-49
2005-06 New York Knickerbockers 23-59
2006-07 New York Knickerbockers 33-49
2007-08 New York Knickerbockers 20-54

Working the draft the way Isiah Thomas does really works :tu

[JamStone]

You don't take a guy that's clearly a 2nd rounder with a 1st round pick. That's just irresponsible, and an extremely simplistic view of things.


What made Balkman a second rounder? Draft mock boards? The opinion of draft experts that also felt Darko was a top 3 pick in 2003 or that Kwame Brown was the best player in the 2001 draft or that Carlos Boozer and Gilbert Arenas didn't have first round talent?

It's all opinion, subjective opinion. And, from that 2006 draft, Balkman has actually reached his value at #20 closer than guys like JJ Redick, Saer Sene, Hilton Armstrong, Shawne Williams, and Quincy Douby who were all drafted higher than him. So, one could easily argue that Balkman at #20 was actually a solid draft selection even if "YOU" want to believe it wasn't just because you "think" no other team valued Balkman that high, which is not at all a fact of certainty.

[JamStone]

Good lord, why am I arguing about this?

I say "Isiah Thomas can't work the draft for shit" and JamStone disagrees. Fine. Everyone has their own opinions.

But I keep repeating my same argument. It really makes no sense for me to do that.

Why don't I just do this instead:

Isiah Thomas

1995-96 Toronto Raptors 21 61
1996-97 Toronto Raptors 30 52
1997-98 Toronto Raptors 16 66
1998-99 Toronto Raptors 23 27

2003-04 NBA New York Knickerbockers 39 43
2004-05 NBA New York Knickerbockers 33 49
2005-06 NBA New York Knickerbockers 23 59
2006-07 NBA New York Knickerbockers 33 49
2007-08 NBA New York Knickerbockers 20 54

Working the draft the way Isiah Thomas does really works :tu


Drafting is the only thing that affects team record?

I guess don't even account for trades, chemistry, coaching, player craziness, or injury at all then. Guess record is the ONLY factor in team success. I like that logic. That means Darko Milicic was the absolutely best draft pick that year in 2003 since the Pistons won the 2004 NBA title.


edit: It's already well established that Isiah is a very bad GM and does not know how to contsruct or build a team. What's at issue is his ability to evaluate talent. His is very good at evaluating talent. He is very bad at building a successful team with that talent.

[monosylab1k]

Drafting is the only thing that affects team record?

I guess don't even account for trades, chemistry, coaching, player craziness, or injury at all then. Guess record is the ONLY factor in team success. I like that logic. That means Darko Milicic was the absolutely best draft pick that year in 2003 since the Pistons won the 2004 NBA title.
All I'm saying is you'd think a heralded talent evaluator like Isiah Thomas would be able to manage a team to a winning record just once in 9 years of trying.

[jacobdrj]

Good lord, why am I arguing about this?

I say "Isiah Thomas can't work the draft for shit" and JamStone disagrees. Fine. Everyone has their own opinions.

But I keep repeating my same argument. It really makes no sense for me to do that.

Why don't I just do this instead:

Isiah Thomas

1995-96 Toronto Raptors 21-61
1996-97 Toronto Raptors 30-52
1997-98 Toronto Raptors 16-66
1998-99 Toronto Raptors 23-27

2003-04 New York Knickerbockers 39-43
2004-05 New York Knickerbockers 33-49
2005-06 New York Knickerbockers 23-59
2006-07 New York Knickerbockers 33-49
2007-08 New York Knickerbockers 20-54

Working the draft the way Isiah Thomas does really works :tu

That sort of proves my point. He is a mediocre coach, a bad GM, but still a great drafter of talent... not TRADER of talent, drafter of talent.

[monosylab1k]

not TRADER of talent, drafter of talent.
in that case it's in the Knicks best interest to fire Isiah so that he can draft talent for someone else & then trade it away to them.

[JamStone]

All I'm saying is you'd think a heralded talent evaluator like Isiah Thomas would be able to manage a team to a winning record just once in 9 years of trying.


Of course, you conveniently left out his three years at Indiana, where Isiah had to completely overhaul a team that lost Rik Smits, Dale Davis, and Antonio Davis, while developing Jermaine O'Neal into a star caliber player, trading for Ron Artest and Brad Miller, drafting Jamaal Tinsley, all the while making those massive overhaul changes, still maintaining a playoff team.

Of course, let's forget about that.

And, as for his Toronto years, let's just forget they were a completely new, expansion team his three years there. I recall a bunch of winning expansion teams in their first three seasons in the league.

Miami's first three seasons: 15-67, 18-64, 24-58
Vancouver's first three seasons: 15-67, 14-68, 19-63
Charlotte's first three seasons: 20-62, 19-63, 26-56
Orlando's first three seasons: 18-64, 31-51, 21-61


Isiah is a bad GM. He makes bad trades. He doesn't know how to build a team with chemistry. He appears to be a below average coach as well. He makes poor free agent acquisitions.

But, he is a very good evaluator of NBA talent.

[monosylab1k]

Of course, you conveniently left out his three years at Indiana, where Isiah had to completely overhaul a team that lost Rik Smits, Dale Davis, and Antonio Davis, while developing Jermaine O'Neal into a star caliber player, trading for Ron Artest and Brad Miller, drafting Jamaal Tinsley, all the while making those massive overhaul changes, still maintaining a playoff team.

Of course, let's forget about that.
Am I mistaken in assuming he was only the head coach? Was he GM as well? If so then he did a good job running the show in Indiana.

I honestly thought he was just the coach for the Pacers, that's why I left that out.

[monosylab1k]

But, he is a very good evaluator of NBA talent.
And it really shows.

[JamStone]

Am I mistaken in assuming he was only the head coach? Was he GM as well? If so then he did a good job running the show in Indiana.

I honestly thought he was just the coach for the Pacers, that's why I left that out.


Walsh was the GM. Isiah was mostly behind the deals for Jermaine O'Neal, Ron Artest, and Brad Miller, as well as pushing for the draft selections for Tinsley, James Jones, Jamison Brewer, and Fred Jones. He was the head coach. He didn't have final decisions on personnel changes, but he was behind most of those moves during the time.

[JamStone]

And it really shows.

Agreed.

Finally.

[monosylab1k]

He didn't have final decisions on personnel changes
okay

[JamStone]

But, he is a very good evaluator of NBA talent.


okay

true.

[ElNono]

For a guy that basically does not and will not consider drafting talent from overseas, and considering that about 20% of NBA players are from overseas, I can't understand how some of you deem him as one of the best scouts out there.

[JamStone]

For a guy that basically does not and will not consider drafting talent from overseas, and considering that about 20% of NBA players are from overseas, I can't understand how some of you deem him as one of the best scouts out there.


Considering only about 10% of that 20% of overseas talent ends up being quality players, it's not that hard to understand.

Isiah would be getting killed even worse than he already is if he was the one selecting Nikoloz Tskitishvili or Jiri Welsch or Zarko Cabarkapa or Zoran Planinic
or Pavel Podkolzin or Yaroslav Korolev or Raul Lopez with first round draft picks.

[monosylab1k]

sigh....I guess it was headed this direction sooner or later.


Isiah Thomas can't work the draft for shit


Agreed.

Finally.
end thread.

[stretch]

true.
lame.

[ElNono]

Considering only about 10% of that 20% of overseas talent ends up being quality players, it's not that hard to understand.

Isiah would be getting killed even worse than he already is if he was the one selecting Nikoloz Tskitishvili or Jiri Welsch or Zarko Cabarkapa or Zoran Planinic
or Pavel Podkolzin or Yaroslav Korolev or Raul Lopez with first round draft picks.

But the point is not the bad ones he didn't pick up, but the good ones that walked away. He basically would have passed on players like Manu, Tony, Peja, Dirk, Nash, maybe even Yao. He might actually have passed on some of them.

You can't possibly be the best scouting talent if you're overlooking a pretty big talent pool out there.

[JamStone]

sigh....I guess it was headed this direction sooner or later.

end thread.


It didn't have to if you could actually use some logic and reasoning.

Isiah is a horrible GM and a bad coach. It's about his ability to evaluate talent, which is very good. You havne't offered any evidence to refute that.

[monosylab1k]

It didn't have to if you could actually use some logic and reasoning.
Yeah it's stupid to expect a GM of an NBA team to understand draft value.

[JamStone]

But the point is not the bad ones he didn't pick up, but the good ones that walked away. He basically would have passed on players like Manu, Tony, Peja, Dirk, Nash, maybe even Yao. He might actually have passed on some of them.

You can't possibly be the best scouting talent if you're overlooking a pretty big talent pool out there.


Many GMs passed on Manu and Peja and Dirk. Most NBA teams were not very adept at drafting internatonal talent back then. Nash is not an overseas talent, especially playing college in the United States.

Tony Parker lasted until the very last pick in the 2001 draft. Your examples are poor because only very few NBA teams were scouting extensively abroad
to get players like that. The more appropriate examples would be the likes of Nikoloz Tskitishvili, Zarko Cabarkapa, Zoran Planinic, Jiri Welsch, Mickael Gelabale, the ones I mentioned that Isiah has passed on in recent drafts. You chose international players that are among the top 1% of international players. In recent drafts, there have been far more bad international draft picks because NBA teams have been infatuated with finding the next great international player. In some ways, Isiah should be applauded for not falling into the pit of the international draft frenzy.

[monosylab1k]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=4148

HOLY SHIT! Look at those numbers! DEAR FUCKING GOD THIS GUY IS AWESOME! FUCK ME WITH A RUSTY SPOON, IF I HAD THE 20TH PICK IN THE DRAFT, THIS GUY IS MY PICK, NO FUCKING DOUBT ABOUT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!one!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[JamStone]

Yeah it's stupid to expect a GM of an NBA team to understand draft value.


No, it's stupid to use draft prognosticators from websites to determine what draft selection is good or bad. Unless you're an NBA scout, or at least a person who is privy to the NBA draft process, your opinion about any prospect's "draft value" is simply a fan's opinion.

Guess we should just listen to you when it comes to draft value of prospects.

[monosylab1k]

Unless you're an NBA scout, or at least a person who is privy to the NBA draft process, your opinion about any prospect's "draft value" is simply a fan's opinion.
Yeah all the rumors that the Mavericks wanted Dirk Nowitzki in the draft were bullshit. Those idiots projecting Nowitzki to be drafted by Dallas had no idea what they were talking about. You have to be an NBA scout, or at least a person privy to the NBA draft process to know what you're talking about.

And in the end, the Mavs drafted Robert Traylor. I always wondered where Dirk wound up after that.

[JamStone]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?statsId=4148

HOLY SHIT! Look at those numbers! DEAR FUCKING GOD THIS GUY IS AWESOME! FUCK ME WITH A RUSTY SPOON, IF I HAD THE 20TH PICK IN THE DRAFT, THIS GUY IS MY PICK, NO FUCKING DOUBT ABOUT IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!one!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You're right. Isiah should have selected James White or PJ Tucker or David Noel instead, the small forwards drafted after Balkman in that draft.

[JamStone]

Yeah all the rumors

Because draft rumors are 100% accurate 100% of the time.

[monosylab1k]

You're right. Isiah should have selected James White or PJ Tucker or David Noel instead, the small forwards drafted after Balkman in that draft.
They definitely shouldn't have waited on Balkman and tried taking a guy like Rondo because well, shit, they had Steve Francis.

No, drafting Renaldo Balkman was the right move, because even a guy privy to the NBA draft process like Jay Bilas certainly agreed.

[monosylab1k]

Because draft rumors are 100% accurate 100% of the time.
well according to you they're 0% accurate 100% of the time.

[monosylab1k]

I guess Chad Ford, Mel Kiper, etc. create their draft boards on blind guesses. They have no clue what GM's are thinking. It was purely coincidence that everyone guessed Al Horford would be a top-5 pick last year. Who knew Jamarcus Russell would be taken #1 overall? None of them really had a clue.

[monosylab1k]

Pure fan speculation that Derrick Rose is going to be a first round pick.

[JamStone]

Why are you talking about #1 overall picks and high lottery selections when criticizing a #20 draft pick in a draft with very weak depth????

Since when was Jay Bilas an insider with NBA scouting?

A lot of those ESPN honks know who the very good players are and who will get drafted high. In a weak NBA draft, the #20 pick isn't certain at all. Very rarely do those "draft experts" get any of the draft picks right after the first 5 or so. They can talk all they want on "rumors" and "which team likes which prospect." Unless it's around the top 5 pick, how often are those rumors correct? How many times are those rumors actually smokescreen? How many times do those rumors mean nothing because a team ahead of the team that likes a certain prospect surprisingly took that player?

Balkman was the #20 draft pick in a draft that had weak depth.

You're not thinking right.

[JamStone]

well according to you they're 0% accurate 100% of the time.


Absolutely not. For instance, the rumor that Phoenix was interested in Renaldo Balkman with the #21 pick in 2006 could have definitely been accurate.

What I'm saying is that only the insiders know what rumors are true or not.

[ElNono]

Many GMs passed on Manu and Peja and Dirk. Most NBA teams were not very adept at drafting internatonal talent back then. Nash is not an overseas talent, especially playing college in the United States.

Tony Parker lasted until the very last pick in the 2001 draft. Your examples are poor because only very few NBA teams were scouting extensively abroad
to get players like that. The more appropriate examples would be the likes of Nikoloz Tskitishvili, Zarko Cabarkapa, Zoran Planinic, Jiri Welsch, Mickael Gelabale, the ones I mentioned that Isiah has passed on in recent drafts. You chose international players that are among the top 1% of international players. In recent drafts, there have been far more bad international draft picks because NBA teams have been infatuated with finding the next great international player. In some ways, Isiah should be applauded for not falling into the pit of the international draft frenzy.

But those guys are known to suck, even before the NBA. If you were following international ball, you know that. I'm not picking Isiah for what he didn't draft, but for the fact he will pass on good talent basically because they're foreigners.

Say the Knicks had the #16 first round pick, and there's a Dirk type of player there, from overseas. Isiah wouldn't draft him, period. He doesn't know shit about them, and does not care to know shit about them because he will not pick them. How does that make you a good scout of talent?

[jacobdrj]

Well, he may not scout outside the US, and he may not feel the need to know, but playing devil's advocate for a minute, it still has yet to be proven you can have a non-American be the centerpiece of a(n) NBA Championship team.
Granted, foregin players have had great success and have won titles in supporting roles, unless you count Timmay as a Virgin Islander...

[peskypesky]

Isaiah was a great player. He sucks at everything else. The proof is in the pudding.

[jacobdrj]

Isaiah was a great player. He sucks at everything else. The proof is in the pudding.

So how do you respond to his apparent draft success?