What is Tim Duncan's religion?

[Blake]

why do you need a percent - just come out with whatever argument that you're trying to bait me into.

Jesus used parables in his teaching to illustrate his point, different writers used metaphors and imagery to illustrate their point. I don't have a percentage to give you - sorry.

Imo, if it's not 100% literal truth, then it's 100% bullshit. The Bible makes it clear that Jesus spoke in parables. The book of Genesis is no parable and was included on purpose.

I'm simply wondering what parts of the Bible you feel should not be taken literally, and why should those parts not be taken literal yet Jesus's miracles should.

I'd also like to see a "credible" pastor's Bible and see if he/she crossed out the non-literal parts. Please provide such a pastors name. Thanks.

[underdawg]

Your response to me is proof enough. You didn't use the quote function, didn't research anything you posted and didn't even verify that the links work.

Lazy.

sorry you feel that way - I'll try harder next time

[Blake]

not hiding at all - the Crusades were based on the battle of Christianity over Islam. If they were basing this war on their belief in Christianity, wouldn't there be something in Christ's teachings to give them authority to do so?

For the record, I do not know any Christians personally that hide from the Old testament. Where do you get this information?

Was Islam attacking Christianity?

[DMC]

not hiding at all - the Crusades were based on the battle of Christianity over Islam. If they were basing this war on their belief in Christianity, wouldn't there be something in Christ's teachings to give them authority to do so?

For the record, I do not know any Christians personally that hide from the Old testament. Where do you get this information?

This is another "No true Scotsman" fallacy.

Religion is as religion does.

:lmao your anecdotal evidences "I don't personally know anyone who..."

I didn't say you hide from it. I say you hide it.

Again, you are too lazy to read and understand. It's no wonder Jesus had to teach in parables.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Matthew 25:41

so then matt knew the mind of god? or are you going to use the old catholic excuse of the tongue of god?

then of course there is the method of the books being chosen the nature of christ's divinity which was in question up until Nestorian schism in the 6th century. it goes on and on.

the fundamental difference i see is that while you believe that jesus was the son of god, i think he was the son of joseph and a mazmer. thats why they made up the story because how are they going to sell that to the near east or the romans when he had no patriarch in reality. because of their asinine religious doctrine jesus' own people would not accept joseph as his father.

so since you take matt at his word what about paul? what about all that stuff he claims in timothy and romans that people do not follow in terms of submission to authority and the treatment of women? oh and what parts of the OT can we ignore and which ones do we have to accept?

[DMC]

Was Islam attacking Christianity?
He seems to think Jesus wrote a book. He fails to get that back in those times, only the "pious" were allowed to read the holy books and others had to take their piety as God given.

It's all part of God's plan.

[DMC]

so then matt knew the mind of god? or are you going to use the old catholic excuse of the tongue of god?

then of course there is the method of the books being chosen the nature of christ's divinity which was in question up until Nestorian schism in the 6th century. it goes on and on.

the fundamental difference i see is that while you believe that jesus was the son of god, i think he was the son of joseph and a mazmer. thats why they made up the story because how are they going to sell that to the near east or the romans when he had no patriarch in reality. because of their asinine religious doctrine jesus' own people would not accept joseph as his father.

so since you take matt at his word what about paul? what about all that stuff he claims in timothy and romans that people do not follow in terms of submission to authority and the treatment of women? oh and what parts of the OT can we ignore and which ones do we have to accept?

If you knew God you would know.

[underdawg]

Imo, if it's not 100% literal truth, then it's 100% bullshit. The Bible makes it clear that Jesus spoke in parables. The book of Genesis is no parable and was included on purpose.

I'm simply wondering what parts of the Bible you feel should not be taken literally, and why should those parts not be taken literal yet Jesus's miracles should.

I'd also like to see a "credible" pastor's Bible and see if he/she crossed out the non-literal parts. Please provide such a pastors name. Thanks.

we're on 2 different pages - I believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. I believe that it is indeed 100% truth and if not, then it wouldn't be the inspired Word of God or God would be fallible. Each chapter and verse should examined based on the context of the time, the style and imagery being used. There were 40 authors of the 66 books in the Bible - different writers have different writing styles, but the message as a whole is consistent.

Here's a pretty good explanation of what I'm talking about:
http://www.equip.org/bible_answers/what-does-it-mean-to-interpret-the-bible-literally-

[underdawg]

so then matt knew the mind of god? or are you going to use the old catholic excuse of the tongue of god?

then of course there is the method of the books being chosen the nature of christ's divinity which was in question up until Nestorian schism in the 6th century. it goes on and on.

the fundamental difference i see is that while you believe that jesus was the son of god, i think he was the son of joseph and a mazmer. thats why they made up the story because how are they going to sell that to the near east or the romans when he had no patriarch in reality. because of their asinine religious doctrine jesus' own people would not accept joseph as his father.

so since you take matt at his word what about paul? what about all that stuff he claims in timothy and romans that people do not follow in terms of submission to authority and the treatment of women? oh and what parts of the OT can we ignore and which ones do we have to accept?

Actually, the words spoken in Matthew 25:41 are Christ's.

Christ's divinity is present throughout the New Testament - I'm not sure why it's questioned, but oh well.

As far as what Paul said, what exactly are you referring to? The treatment of women? - please give a verse.

What parts of the OT do we ignore?

[underdawg]

Is it a coincidence that they are all Christians?

Scientists question religion and science

Theists only question science and give religion a pass

Am I to go down your list of scientists and tell you what each of them actually means when they dissent?

Do you know the difference between the theory of evolution and evolution itself?

Do you realize this entire exercise is a "god of the gaps" attempt? Because the alternative that theists propose to evolution is creation and let's see them experiment with that.

I guess I don't - please explain the difference between the theory of evolution and evolution itself.

What examples of evolution produced in a lab are there?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

we're on 2 different pages - I believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. I believe that it is indeed 100% truth and if not, then it wouldn't be the inspired Word of God or God would be fallible. Each chapter and verse should examined based on the context of the time, the style and imagery being used. There were 40 authors of the 66 books in the Bible - different writers have different writing styles, but the message as a whole is consistent.

Here's a pretty good explanation of what I'm talking about:
http://www.equip.org/bible_answers/what-does-it-mean-to-interpret-the-bible-literally-

Matt wrote it? So at the time of writing it he understood the mind of god? or was god just using him like a pencil.

And a consistent message? Yeah Deuteronomy and Leviticus jives so very well with the Gospels. :rolleyes

For that matter the God of David jives so well with the God of the Levites versus the God of Kings. gmfb

that you think theyre constant just goes to show how deluded you are. the God of the OT reads like Greek mythology and has about just as much validity.

You really believe that Noah on Sinai actually saw a burning bush that talked to him and told him that rule of law? and that the tower of babel was actually being built? and that God really wanted people to bring animal sacrifices to his priests that they were to prepare and eat on his behalf?

[underdawg]

Was Islam attacking Christianity?

If you're looking for me to rationalize or approve the Crusades, I can stop you there and say that I don't think it was a war based on the teachings of Christ.

[underdawg]

Matt wrote it? So at the time of writing it he understood the mind of god? or was god just using him like a pencil.

And a consistent message? Yeah Deuteronomy and Leviticus jives so very well with the Gospels. :rolleyes

For that matter the God of David jives so well with the God of the Levites versus the God of Kings. gmfb

that you think theyre constant just goes to show how deluded you are. the God of the OT reads like Greek mythology and has about just as much validity.

You really believe that Noah on Sinai actually saw a burning bush that talked to him and told him that rule of law? and that the tower of babel was actually being built? and that God really wanted people to bring animal sacrifices to his priests that they were to prepare and eat on his behalf?


Yes I believe that the Old Testament is true and even more remarkable, I believe that an all knowing and all powerful God created the universe - much less a burning bush.

[underdawg]

Matt wrote it? So at the time of writing it he understood the mind of god? or was god just using him like a pencil.


I guess I should have explained further - these are the words that were heard from Christ by Matthew.

[underdawg]

This is another "No true Scotsman" fallacy.

Religion is as religion does.

:lmao your anecdotal evidences "I don't personally know anyone who..."

I didn't say you hide from it. I say you hide it.

Again, you are too lazy to read and understand. It's no wonder Jesus had to teach in parables.

hurtful words, so hurtful

[Blake]

we're on 2 different pages - I believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God. I believe that it is indeed 100% truth and if not, then it wouldn't be the inspired Word of God or God would be fallible. Each chapter and verse should examined based on the context of the time, the style and imagery being used. There were 40 authors of the 66 books in the Bible - different writers have different writing styles, but the message as a whole is consistent.

Here's a pretty good explanation of what I'm talking about:
http://www.equip.org/bible_answers/what-does-it-mean-to-interpret-the-bible-literally-

So why are there obvious contradictions even in context?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I guess I should have explained further - these are the words that were heard from Christ by Matthew.

so what about most of what paul wrote, the levites, deuteronomy, etc where various priests have spoken in God's name? what do you think a prophet is?

that whole rhetoric is great social control. it basically coopts those not of the priest class. believeing that allows them to be the arbiters and you well you cannot possibly know shit.

do you also believe that you are some sort of sinful wretch that needs the grace of God? you seem like a good little minion.

[Seventyniner]

There should be a subforum for this.

[DMC]

I guess I don't - please explain the difference between the theory of evolution and evolution itself.

What examples of evolution produced in a lab are there?
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14094-bacteria-make-major-evolutionary-shift-in-the-lab.html

Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab



This should interest you since your theist scientist is also working with colon bacteria.

[Blake]

There should be a subforum for this.

There is. I was certain it would have been moved at least 5 pages ago.

[underdawg]

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14094-bacteria-make-major-evolutionary-shift-in-the-lab.html

Bacteria make major evolutionary shift in the lab



This should interest you since your theist scientist is also working with colon bacteria.

this article references the mutation of the bacteria, but is there proof of evolution from one species to another in the lab?

Malaria is another good example of mutation or adaption and if you want to call it evolution, fine. It's an example of microevolution, but what about macroevolution if evolution is a fact?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Actually, the words spoken in Matthew 25:41 are Christ's.

Christ's divinity is present throughout the New Testament - I'm not sure why it's questioned, but oh well.

As far as what Paul said, what exactly are you referring to? The treatment of women? - please give a verse.

What parts of the OT do we ignore?

You are not familiar with 1st and 2nd Timothy? 1st Corinthians? Leviticus Deuteronomy?

Hers Paul in one:


33: ...As in all the churches of the saints, 34: the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. 35: If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church. 36: What! Did the word of God originate with you, or are you the only ones it has reached? 37: If any one thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord.

Leviticus is full of all kinds of fun stuff. Lets see most of the beginning is what you are supposed to bring the priests. moses was setting himslef up phat


If your offering is a fellowship offering, and you offer an animal from the herd, whether male or female, you are to present before the LORD an animal without defect. 2 You are to lay your hand on the head of your offering and slaughter it at the entrance to the tent of meeting. Then Aaron’s sons the priests shall splash the blood against the sides of the altar. 3 From the fellowship offering you are to bring a food offering to the LORD: the internal organs and all the fat that is connected to them, 4 both kidneys with the fat on them near the loins, and the long lobe of the liver, which you will remove with the kidneys. 5 Then Aaron’s sons are to burn it on the altar on top of the burnt offering that is lying on the burning wood; it is a food offering, an aroma pleasing to the LORD.

I lke this one cause its basically take all the bad shit and burn it but the rest you give to us. Mose... err God sure loves that smell.

Leviticus 4 has what i like to call the room service clause. If they need to they can just ring up God and the minions will bring a cow


13 “‘If the whole Israelite community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD’s commands, even though the community is unaware of the matter, when they realize their guilt 14 and the sin they committed becomes known, the assembly must bring a young bull as a sin offering and present it before the tent of meeting. 15 The elders of the community are to lay their hands on the bull’s head before the LORD, and the bull shall be slaughtered before the LORD. 16 Then the anointed priest is to take some of the bull’s blood into the tent of meeting. 17 He shall dip his finger into the blood and sprinkle it before the LORD seven times in front of the curtain. 18 He is to put some of the blood on the horns of the altar that is before the LORD in the tent of meeting. The rest of the blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar of burnt offering at the entrance to the tent of meeting. 19 He shall remove all the fat from it and burn it on the altar, 20 and do with this bull just as he did with the bull for the sin offering. In this way the priest will make atonement for the community, and they will be forgiven. 21 Then he shall take the bull outside the camp and burn it as he burned the first bull. This is the sin offering for the community.

Chapter 11 has all the eating prohibitions those are ignored

And a lot of it invokes God. Its pretty clear that


The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, 2 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘When any man has an unusual bodily discharge, such a discharge is unclean. 3 Whether it continues flowing from his body or is blocked, it will make him unclean. This is how his discharge will bring about uncleanness:

16 “‘When a man has an emission of semen, he must bathe his whole body with water, and he will be unclean till evening. 17 Any clothing or leather that has semen on it must be washed with water, and it will be unclean till evening. 18 When a man has sexual relations with a woman and there is an emission of semen, both of them must bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening.

Basically throughotu it all he says that if you are unclean you are to be quarantined most all of it is ignore d except the patrilineal homophobic stuff 18 is widely quoted all the time


1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘I am the LORD your God. 3 You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices. 4 You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the LORD your God. 5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the person who obeys them will live by them. I am the LORD.

6 “‘No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the LORD.

7 “‘Do not dishonor your father by having sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; do not have relations with her.

8 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your father’s wife; that would dishonor your father.

9 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father’s daughter or your mother’s daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere.

10 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your son’s daughter or your daughter’s daughter; that would dishonor you.

11 “‘Do not have sexual relations with the daughter of your father’s wife, born to your father; she is your sister.

12 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your father’s sister; she is your father’s close relative.

13 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your mother’s sister, because she is your mother’s close relative.

14 “‘Do not dishonor your father’s brother by approaching his wife to have sexual relations; she is your aunt.

15 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law. She is your son’s wife; do not have relations with her.

16 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your brother’s wife; that would dishonor your brother.

17 “‘Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter. Do not have sexual relations with either her son’s daughter or her daughter’s daughter; they are her close relatives. That is wickedness.

18 “‘Do not take your wife’s sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living.

19 “‘Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the uncleanness of her monthly period.

20 “‘Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor’s wife and defile yourself with her.

21 “‘Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molek, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.

22 “‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable.

23 “‘Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.

24 “‘Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. 25 Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. 26 But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the foreigners residing among you must not do any of these detestable things, 27 for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. 28 And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you.

29 “‘Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people. 30 Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God.’”

But even that now is being ignored. Thats where you get the accusations of picking and choosing.

[DMC]

this article references the mutation of the bacteria, but is there proof of evolution from one species to another in the lab?

Malaria is another good example of mutation or adaption and if you want to call it evolution, fine. It's an example of microevolution, but what about macroevolution if evolution is a fact?

Evolution is a fact. You just said so.

The rest is just quibbling over semantics.

[Blackjack]

Wish Tim would chime in.

He's probably got better things to do though.

Shucks.

[underdawg]

You are not familiar with 1st and 2nd Timothy? 1st Corinthians? Leviticus Deuteronomy?

Hers Paul in one:



Leviticus is full of all kinds of fun stuff. Lets see most of the beginning is what you are supposed to bring the priests. moses was setting himslef up phat



I lke this one cause its basically take all the bad shit and burn it but the rest you give to us. Mose... err God sure loves that smell.

Leviticus 4 has what i like to call the room service clause. If they need to they can just ring up God and the minions will bring a cow



Chapter 11 has all the eating prohibitions those are ignored

And a lot of it invokes God. Its pretty clear that



Basically throughotu it all he says that if you are unclean you are to be quarantined most all of it is ignore d except the patrilineal homophobic stuff 18 is widely quoted all the time



But even that now is being ignored. Thats where you get the accusations of picking and choosing.

1 Corithians 14:34-35 - my understanding is that Paul is specifically addressing the church in Corinth regarding a problem with women causing disruption during their meeting. vs. 37 is not tied directly with 34 & 35, but for the chapter and the letter all together.

This doesn't mean that women were unequal or lesser than men - Galatians (written by Paul) 3:28 - There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Also, in Romans 16 Paul talks about and thanks all the women that have helped him. This is during a time where all of civilization treated women as 2nd class citizens, but Paul is commending them with much gratitude. If the apostles considered women 2nd class citizens, why were Mary and Mary Magdalene mentioned in Matthew as the first to see Jesus after his resurrection?

As far as the sacrifices and laws from the Old Testament that you mention as being ignored, they're not. Christ fulfilled the law - Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Those ceremonies and those rules that you mentioned were fulfilled by the atonement of sins by Christ - Romans 6:14 - For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Different circumstances for Israel in the Old Testament versus the Jews and the early church during the time of Jesus' life and after his death. God was in more contact with his people and that is why I believe that worship was more severe and physical in purpose.

[underdawg]

Evolution is a fact. You just said so.

The rest is just quibbling over semantics.

microevolution is worthless without macroevolution

[DMC]

microevolution is worthless without macroevolution
Evolution, get some.

[DMC]

1 Corithians 14:34-35 - my understanding is that Paul is specifically addressing the church in Corinth regarding a problem with women causing disruption during their meeting. vs. 37 is not tied directly with 34 & 35, but for the chapter and the letter all together.

This doesn't mean that women were unequal or lesser than men - Galatians (written by Paul) 3:28 - There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Also, in Romans 16 Paul talks about and thanks all the women that have helped him. This is during a time where all of civilization treated women as 2nd class citizens, but Paul is commending them with much gratitude. If the apostles considered women 2nd class citizens, why were Mary and Mary Magdalene mentioned in Matthew as the first to see Jesus after his resurrection?

As far as the sacrifices and laws from the Old Testament that you mention as being ignored, they're not. Christ fulfilled the law - Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Those ceremonies and those rules that you mentioned were fulfilled by the atonement of sins by Christ - Romans 6:14 - For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Different circumstances for Israel in the Old Testament versus the Jews and the early church during the time of Jesus' life and after his death. God was in more contact with his people and that is why I believe that worship was more severe and physical in purpose.

Wow God was in "more contact with his people".

You're talking about thousands of years compared to just 30 or so.

It's amazing how God only cared for a couple people in the entire world. Imagine your life's work being so shitty you have to kill everyone in it and start over.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

1 Corithians 14:34-35 - my understanding is that Paul is specifically addressing the church in Corinth regarding a problem with women causing disruption during their meeting. vs. 37 is not tied directly with 34 & 35, but for the chapter and the letter all together.

This doesn't mean that women were unequal or lesser than men - Galatians (written by Paul) 3:28 - There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Also, in Romans 16 Paul talks about and thanks all the women that have helped him. This is during a time where all of civilization treated women as 2nd class citizens, but Paul is commending them with much gratitude. If the apostles considered women 2nd class citizens, why were Mary and Mary Magdalene mentioned in Matthew as the first to see Jesus after his resurrection?

As far as the sacrifices and laws from the Old Testament that you mention as being ignored, they're not. Christ fulfilled the law - Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Those ceremonies and those rules that you mentioned were fulfilled by the atonement of sins by Christ - Romans 6:14 - For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Different circumstances for Israel in the Old Testament versus the Jews and the early church during the time of Jesus' life and after his death. God was in more contact with his people and that is why I believe that worship was more severe and physical in purpose.

That did not absolve you of all the laws. See thats what i love about Paul he tells people what they want to hear. The Romans want to eat their food and have supremacy of the state well from Paul now you can just ignore all of that pther stuff they said cause i got the direct connection to God. quite conventient

And Corinthians is not the only instance he patronizes women. he also does the same in 1st timothy chapter 2. Further he invokes the law. This stands stark in the face of your assertion that people are no longer beholden to the law. he also speaks for God quite often. I don't see God. All I see is Paul.

All you do there is find a passage that you use to give you the excuse to pick and choose what to follow. thats horseshit. i can get the whole notion of sacrifices no longer being necessary and absolution was no longer in the hands of the levites. After all his temper tantrum in the temple over their whole racket was what started all of his issues.

I dont get the hall pass from all the rules but it does not suprise me that christians would say that because that is what most of the religion is about, lack of accountability to anyone or anything. Even their own God.

You buy what paul says but i take it you don't buy what john smith said about jesus being in america while he was dead? why do you choose one and not the other?

[pgardn]

microevolution is worthless without macroevolution

So macroevolution did not occur? Living things were created separately... how?

Whats the mechanism?



This is where I have a problem. When one can use science to answer a question yet some choose the supernatural as an explanation because the science explanation does not fit religious beliefs. How about:

"The kids got cancer, its God's will, no chemo." Or when testing a medicine you choose a bug as your animal model instead of a mammal, because they are all created separately, it really does not matter what model we choose as they are all unrelated.

[underdawg]

That did not absolve you of all the laws. See thats what i love about Paul he tells people what they want to hear. The Romans want to eat their food and have supremacy of the state well from Paul now you can just ignore all of that pther stuff they said cause i got the direct connection to God. quite conventient

And Corinthians is not the only instance he patronizes women. he also does the same in 1st timothy chapter 2. Further he invokes the law. This stands stark in the face of your assertion that people are no longer beholden to the law. he also speaks for God quite often. I don't see God. All I see is Paul.

All you do there is find a passage that you use to give you the excuse to pick and choose what to follow. thats horseshit. i can get the whole notion of sacrifices no longer being necessary and absolution was no longer in the hands of the levites. After all his temper tantrum in the temple over their whole racket was what started all of his issues.

I dont get the hall pass from all the rules but it does not suprise me that christians would say that because that is what most of the religion is about, lack of accountability to anyone or anything. Even their own God.

You buy what paul says but i take it you don't buy what john smith said about jesus being in america while he was dead? why do you choose one and not the other?

First of all, I don't pick and chose parts of the Bible to fit my needs. As I've stated earlier, I take the Bible as a whole. Although it seems that most of the attacks in this thread are from picking and choosing parts of the Bible to support the attack instead of addressing the Bible as a whole.

Have you even read the New Testament? I only ask that because it's hard for me to understand how you could come up with the questions you do regarding the Old Testament after reading the New Testament. Christ's ministry was pointing out to the Jews that their worship had become superficial only and their heart was evil. It is all about Christ being the last priest for those that believed in him after his resurrection. Paul spends almost the entire time in Romans dealing with how Christians were no longer under the law because Christ fulfilled the law for them and has given them grace to be righteous. He also deals explains why animal sacrifices are no longer needed in Hebrews 10:9-18. (vs. 18) - Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Please point out anywhere in the New Testament that Paul invokes the law over grace? 1 Timothy 2 is not it - Paul is giving instructions on prayer and I do not see a reference to the law.

Where does Paul patronize women?

I not only trust Paul as having been inspired by God, I trust the same of all of the authors of the New Testament. There were over 40 prophesies in the Old Testament that spoke of Christ and so I don't know how Christians could ignore the Old Testament, but that doesn't mean that Christians are obligated to physical worship of the Old Testament.

Why do you think it's called the New Testament? It is a New Covenant between God and mankind prophesized in Jeremiah 31:31-34, Malachi 3:1 and pointed out in Hebrews 8:10-11 and Matthew 26:27-28. It's a covenant that is no longer under a physical worship as was given to Moses, but a spiritual worship as stated in Romans 8:1-4.

What temper tantrum are you referring to? Jesus overthrowing the tables in the temple because there were people scheming to make money off of sacrifices that were supposed to be holy?

As far as John Smith, are you referring to Joseph Smith? Joseph Smith believed the book of Mormon to be above the Bible - I do not believe that can be harmonized. There is also no archaeological evidence to support Joseph Smith's claims and there is no harmonization with the Old Testament or the New Testament to support his book. That is why I don't believe Joseph Smith.

I do not understand your generalization of Christians as not being accountable to anyone or even God - to me that makes no sense based on what we believe and what we're taught but you're definitely entitled to your opinion.

[underdawg]

So macroevolution did not occur? Living things were created separately... how?

Whats the mechanism?



This is where I have a problem. When one can use science to answer a question yet some choose the supernatural as an explanation because the science explanation does not fit religious beliefs. How about:

"The kids got cancer, its God's will, no chemo." Or when testing a medicine you choose a bug as your animal model instead of a mammal, because they are all created separately, it really does not matter what model we choose as they are all unrelated.

Yes, I believe that God created living things seperately (in that they didn't evolve into another species) and I also believe that he designed each living organism to adapt to its environment.

As far as chemo or medicine or whatever you remarkably feel that Christians are opposed to, I will be the first to tell you that if I had a loved one with cancer and the doctors felt chemo was necessary I'd be for it. And for the record, I also take trips on those metal birds in the sky too.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

First of all, I don't pick and chose parts of the Bible to fit my needs. As I've stated earlier, I take the Bible as a whole.

Whoa there, that's a dangerous ground you're walking on pal. Anyway, not gonna attack you on this, I'd just like to know why do you dismiss other big religions such as Hinduism or Islam or any other religion for that matter? Why Christ but not Krishna? Do you believe you'd be the devoted christian you are had you been born in a remote chinese village or do you logically understand that religion is based first and foremost on geographical location?

Also, do you believe 99.9% of the japanese, for example, are going to hell because they dismiss your god, just like you dismiss theirs?

[underdawg]

Whoa there, that's a dangerous ground you're walking on pal. Anyway, not gonna attack you on this, I'd just like to know why do you dismiss other big religions such as Hinduism or Islam or any other religion for that matter? Why Christ but not Krishna? Do you believe you'd be the devoted christian you are had you been born in a remote chinese village or do you logically understand that religion is based first and foremost on geographical location?

Also, do you believe 99.9% of the japanese, for example, are going to hell because they dismiss your god, just like you dismiss theirs?

My belief in Christianity comes from personal experience, knowlege and my faith. I do not know as much about Islam, Hinduism, etc. as I do Christianity, but I continue to research other religions and will do so in order to understand them. That said, I think Christianity is unique in that it doesn't rely on the ability or works of the believer to be righteous. It accepts all of mankind to be sinners and short of the grace of God and only able to reconcile with God because of the work Jesus did.

I don't know what my circumstances would be if I lived in a different country and why that would influence the will of God. I've been surrounded by Christianity most of my life and it took me most of that time to truly give my life to Christ. I was not exosed to other religions as much as I was Christianity, but I was still aware of other religions and never felt called to any other.

As far as who goes to hell and who doesn't, I would be foolish to make that judgement because it's not mine. I know that Christ says in John 14:6 - I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Because of this verse and Christ's message throughout the New Testament, I believe that salvation is through Christ only. I don't know how this applies to someone that has never heard of Christ.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

My belief in Christianity comes from personal experience, knowlege and my faith. I do not know as much about Islam, Hinduism, etc. as I do Christianity, but I continue to research other religions and will do so in order to understand them. That said, I think Christianity is unique in that it doesn't rely on the ability or works of the believer to be righteous. It accepts all of mankind to be sinners and short of the grace of God and only able to reconcile with God because of the work Jesus did.

I don't know what my circumstances would be if I lived in a different country and why that would influence the will of God. I've been surrounded by Christianity most of my life and it took me most of that time to truly give my life to Christ. I was not exosed to other religions as much as I was Christianity, but I was still aware of other religions and never felt called to any other.

As far as who goes to hell and who doesn't, I would be foolish to make that judgement because it's not mine. I know that Christ says in John 14:6 - I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Because of this verse and Christ's message throughout the New Testament, I believe that salvation is through Christ only. I don't know how this applies to someone that has never heard of Christ.

Good enough for me, cheers :toast. The only problem I have is your view that christianity is somehow unique, it's not at all.

[all_heart]

My belief in Christianity comes from personal experience, knowlege and my faith. I do not know as much about Islam, Hinduism, etc. as I do Christianity, but I continue to research other religions and will do so in order to understand them. That said, I think Christianity is unique in that it doesn't rely on the ability or works of the believer to be righteous. It accepts all of mankind to be sinners and short of the grace of God and only able to reconcile with God because of the work Jesus did.

I don't know what my circumstances would be if I lived in a different country and why that would influence the will of God. I've been surrounded by Christianity most of my life and it took me most of that time to truly give my life to Christ. I was not exosed to other religions as much as I was Christianity, but I was still aware of other religions and never felt called to any other.

As far as who goes to hell and who doesn't, I would be foolish to make that judgement because it's not mine. I know that Christ says in John 14:6 - I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Because of this verse and Christ's message throughout the New Testament, I believe that salvation is through Christ only. I don't know how this applies to someone that has never heard of Christ.

Well said. Thank you!

[all_heart]

First of all, I don't pick and chose parts of the Bible to fit my needs. As I've stated earlier, I take the Bible as a whole. Although it seems that most of the attacks in this thread are from picking and choosing parts of the Bible to support the attack instead of addressing the Bible as a whole.


For me it's all about the message. I can see how if someone is struggling with their faith attempts takes the Bible as a 100% literal translation how that can be troublesome. I don't get caught up in all that. Atheists will call that irresponsible, lazy, etc... Sorry they feel that way.

This has stuck with me ever since I was young:
I am the way, the truth, and the life. The only way to the Father is through me.

[Blake]

First of all, I don't pick and chose parts of the Bible to fit my needs. As I've stated earlier, I take the Bible as a whole. Although it seems that most of the attacks in this thread are from picking and choosing parts of the Bible to support the attack instead of addressing the Bible as a whole.


God clearly endorses slavery in the Old Testament

In what context could slavery ever be justified?

[Blake]

For me it's all about the message. I can see how if someone is struggling with their faith attempts takes the Bible as a 100% literal translation how that can be troublesome. I don't get caught up in all that. Atheists will call that irresponsible, lazy, etc... Sorry they feel that way.

This has stuck with me ever since I was young:
I am the way, the truth, and the life. The only way to the Father is through me.

It really is intellectually lazy on your part. I wonder if King James thought the Bible he put out was 100% literally accurate.

I bet he did.

[all_heart]

It really is intellectually lazy on your part. I wonder if King James thought the Bible he put out was 100% literally accurate.

I bet he did.

All your opinion, something you should remember. Be careful when over thinking things.. look at what it's done to you, but hey if you are happier that way...

BTW I prefer the easy to read version. biblegateway dot com

[Blake]

All your opinion, something you should remember. Be careful when over thinking things.. look at what it's done to you, but hey if you are happier that way...

BTW I prefer the easy to read version. biblegateway dot com

If Jesus was the truth, how could he say that no man had ever ascended into heaven before, when one of the major OT prophets did just that?

It says this in all the bible gateway translations and is a legitimate question, unless you are too lazy to ask it.

[all_heart]

If Jesus was the truth, how could he say that no man had ever ascended into heaven before, when one of the major OT prophets did just that?

It says this in all the bible gateway translations and is a legitimate question, unless you are too lazy to ask it.

You mean Elijah?

[Blake]

You mean Elijah?

Yes

[all_heart]

Yes

Contextually heaven is the sky. And if you watch Ancient Aliens, the chariot could really be a spaceship... :lol

[Rick Santorum]

sup Blake, you faggot loving athiest

[Blake]

Contextually heaven is the sky. And if you watch Ancient Aliens, the chariot could really be a spaceship... :lol

It can be whatever you want it to be in a make believe world

[all_heart]

It can be whatever you want it to be in a make believe world

You really enjoy asking theological questions just so you can ridicule it don't you?

[Blake]

You really enjoy asking theological questions just so you can ridicule it don't you?

I like a serious discussion, but you aren't serious. I also like ridiculing silly fools.

[all_heart]

I like a serious discussion, but you aren't serious. I also like ridiculing silly fools.

What makes you think I'm not serious? Cause of the spaceship?! :lol

[Blake]

What makes you think I'm not serious? Cause of the spaceship?! :lol

Do you seriously believe a spaceship picked up Elijah?

[all_heart]

Do you seriously believe a spaceship picked up Elijah?

Uhh...of course not! It was my attempt at humor.

[Blake]

Uhh...of course not! It was my attempt at humor.

I figured you were just being silly

[ambchang]

Great to see how people regurgitating questions that came up hundreds of years ago that has been solved is accusing others of being mentally lazy.

Very nice.

[ambchang]

Even better to see someone so into science and "reality" to totally ignore human aspects of things such as why the KJV of Bible was written in the first place.

[all_heart]

I figured you were just being silly

I though the smiley gave it away.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

First of all, I don't pick and chose parts of the Bible to fit my needs. As I've stated earlier, I take the Bible as a whole. Although it seems that most of the attacks in this thread are from picking and choosing parts of the Bible to support the attack instead of addressing the Bible as a whole.

Have you even read the New Testament? I only ask that because it's hard for me to understand how you could come up with the questions you do regarding the Old Testament after reading the New Testament. Christ's ministry was pointing out to the Jews that their worship had become superficial only and their heart was evil. It is all about Christ being the last priest for those that believed in him after his resurrection. Paul spends almost the entire time in Romans dealing with how Christians were no longer under the law because Christ fulfilled the law for them and has given them grace to be righteous. He also deals explains why animal sacrifices are no longer needed in Hebrews 10:9-18. (vs. 18) - Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Please point out anywhere in the New Testament that Paul invokes the law over grace? 1 Timothy 2 is not it - Paul is giving instructions on prayer and I do not see a reference to the law.

Where does Paul patronize women?

I not only trust Paul as having been inspired by God, I trust the same of all of the authors of the New Testament. There were over 40 prophesies in the Old Testament that spoke of Christ and so I don't know how Christians could ignore the Old Testament, but that doesn't mean that Christians are obligated to physical worship of the Old Testament.

Why do you think it's called the New Testament? It is a New Covenant between God and mankind prophesized in Jeremiah 31:31-34, Malachi 3:1 and pointed out in Hebrews 8:10-11 and Matthew 26:27-28. It's a covenant that is no longer under a physical worship as was given to Moses, but a spiritual worship as stated in Romans 8:1-4.

What temper tantrum are you referring to? Jesus overthrowing the tables in the temple because there were people scheming to make money off of sacrifices that were supposed to be holy?

As far as John Smith, are you referring to Joseph Smith? Joseph Smith believed the book of Mormon to be above the Bible - I do not believe that can be harmonized. There is also no archaeological evidence to support Joseph Smith's claims and there is no harmonization with the Old Testament or the New Testament to support his book. That is why I don't believe Joseph Smith.

I do not understand your generalization of Christians as not being accountable to anyone or even God - to me that makes no sense based on what we believe and what we're taught but you're definitely entitled to your opinion.

I've read the thing multiple times but thanks. I havent been told what its supposed to read like the last two times. Gives a nice fresh perspective. Well thats not true I never could make it through numbers.

Wow, in the Corinthians verse he straight up did invoke the law in saying women were to be inferiors. The Timothy verse he just says women are subservient again. I get that women were second class then culturally that just lends to mypoint that it was written by men and not by God. You come up with excuses just to ignore it all.

As i said i get the thing about sin and sacrifice. And yes the money changers and the Levites coming between man and his absolution is exactly my pont. Thats what Jesus was all about. Its pretty apparent he didn't like their racket getting between the people and their absolution. He ended that nonsense.

You take some vague verses from Paul and use that as carte blanche to ignore everything. In that you are a follower of Paul. He was a good salesman. The Council of Nice choosing all of his works as the word of God was one of the greatest tragedies in history.

As for the last, I get why you do not believe the book of mormons there is no archaeological evidence. Unfortunately there is also only the vaguest evidence at best for the shit that you believe in. You believe it anyway. Thats they point i am trying to make.

Why are Hindu's flying elephants wrong?

[underdawg]

Good enough for me, cheers :toast. The only problem I have is your view that christianity is somehow unique, it's not at all.

Sorry - I didn't mean to say that Christianity was unique in that I could prove it was the only religion that's right (although that is what I believe). I meant that it is unique in the approach to salvation (I'll admit I could be wrong here). My understanding is that Islam, Hinduism, Judiasm, Mormonism, Buddhism and so on are based on the individuals journey and self improvements based on the teachings of said religions. Physical worship and or self improvement is key to salvation or enlightenment.

Christianity is based on the believer understanding that they are incapable of being righteous on their own and only through the grace of God in atonement by Jesus Christ can they be saved. In other words, no matter how hard a believer tries to be "good" they cannot be "good" on their own. Only through belief in Christ can a believer be righteous. This doesn't mean that the believer will stop sinning, but that as they become closer to Christ they will sin less and after they are resurrected like Christ into God's kingdom, they will sin no more.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

My belief in Christianity comes from personal experience, knowlege and my faith. I do not know as much about Islam, Hinduism, etc. as I do Christianity, but I continue to research other religions and will do so in order to understand them. That said, I think Christianity is unique in that it doesn't rely on the ability or works of the believer to be righteous. It accepts all of mankind to be sinners and short of the grace of God and only able to reconcile with God because of the work Jesus did.

I don't know what my circumstances would be if I lived in a different country and why that would influence the will of God. I've been surrounded by Christianity most of my life and it took me most of that time to truly give my life to Christ. I was not exosed to other religions as much as I was Christianity, but I was still aware of other religions and never felt called to any other.

As far as who goes to hell and who doesn't, I would be foolish to make that judgement because it's not mine. I know that Christ says in John 14:6 - I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Because of this verse and Christ's message throughout the New Testament, I believe that salvation is through Christ only. I don't know how this applies to someone that has never heard of Christ.

If every man is a sinner and the only way to salvation is by joinng the country club then how are they going to get absolution without knowing the one way? I'm sure you have some vague mystical bullshit cliche but the answer is obvious. under your paradigm all nonbelievers no matter the reasona re doomed. I am sure you feel sorry for me because you think I am going to hell too. Thats how most christians operate.

[Blake]

Great to see how people regurgitating questions that came up hundreds of years ago that has been solved is accusing others of being mentally lazy.

Very nice.

My question has been answered?

I can't seem to find the unquestionable answer. Please post it.

[underdawg]

I've read the thing multiple times but thanks. I havent been told what its supposed to read like the last two times. Gives a nice fresh perspective. Well thats not true I never could make it through numbers.

Wow, in the Corinthians verse he straight up did invoke the law in saying women were to be inferiors. The Timothy verse he just says women are subservient again. I get that women were second class then culturally that just lends to mypoint that it was written by men and not by God. You come up with excuses just to ignore it all.

As i said i get the thing about sin and sacrifice. And yes the money changers and the Levites coming between man and his absolution is exactly my pont. Thats what Jesus was all about. Its pretty apparent he didn't like their racket getting between the people and their absolution. He ended that nonsense.

You take some vague verses from Paul and use that as carte blanche to ignore everything. In that you are a follower of Paul. He was a good salesman. The Council of Nice choosing all of his works as the word of God was one of the greatest tragedies in history.

As for the last, I get why you do not believe the book of mormons there is no archaeological evidence. Unfortunately there is also only the vaguest evidence at best for the shit that you believe in. You believe it anyway. Thats they point i am trying to make.

Why are Hindu's flying elephants wrong?

There's actually quite a bit of archaeological evidence that supports the Bible, but don't take my word for it go look it up.

Again - where did Paul invoke the law over grace? Give me a chapter and a verse please.

Where did Paul say that women were inferior to men? Give me a chapter and a verse please.

I gave you examples of how the New Testament went against the grain of thinking at that time of women as 2nd class citizens - I did not say it was because of the time period.

Jesus' teachings dealt directly with the hypocrisy of men to say one thing on the outside and to believe another in their hearts. This is why he challenged the Pharisees on their self righteous belief that they were good because they didn't kill, but in their hearts they hated their brother (Matthew 5:21-22). This is the purpose of the new covenant (as I stated previously) to take away the physical worship that had been perverted and to replace it with spiritual worship that was possible because Christ fulfilled the law.

[underdawg]

God clearly endorses slavery in the Old Testament

In what context could slavery ever be justified?

not being lazy, but just a better explanation than I could give:

A myth propped up by secular skeptics is that Scripture sanctions slavery. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
First, it should be noted that far from extolling the virtues of slavery, the Bible denounces slavery as sin. The New Testament goes so far as to put slave traders in the same category as murderers, adulterers, perverts, and liars (1 Timothy 1:10).

Furthermore, slavery within the Old Testament context was sanctioned due to economic realities rather than racial or sexual prejudices. Because bankruptcy laws did not exist, people would voluntarily sell themselves into slavery. A craftsman could thus use his skills in servitude to discharge a debt. Even a convicted thief could make restitution by serving as a slave (Exodus 22:3).

Finally, while the Bible as a whole recognizes the reality of slavery, it never promotes the practice of slavery. In fact, it was the application of biblical principles that ultimately led to the overthrow of slavery, both in ancient Israel and in the United States of America. Israel’s liberation from slavery in Egypt became the model for the liberation of slaves in general. In America, many are beginning to wake up to the liberating biblical truth that all people are created by God with innate equality (Genesis 1:27; Acts 17:26–28; Galatians 3:28).
http://www.equip.org/bible_answers/does-the-bible-promote-slavery-

[Blake]

I though the smiley gave it away.

I just wanted to clarify.

You believe in virgin birth, people coming back from the dead and other such magic. You believing that aliens have visited earth wouldn't have surprised me much.

[DrSteffo]

The Vikings believed that the ones who fight hard (Manu et al.) goes to Valhall/heaven and the cowards don't get in. They also believed that we all live in a big tree so they were kind of wrong. Their stories were more fun than the Bible though.

[all_heart]

I just wanted to clarify.

You believe in virgin birth, people coming back from the dead and other such magic. You believing that aliens have visited earth wouldn't have surprised me much.

Of course... I figured you would say something like that.

Let me ask you something, what if I'm right and you are wrong and vice versa?

[all_heart]

how are they going to get absolution without knowing the one way?

Please clarify this question.

[underdawg]

If Jesus was the truth, how could he say that no man had ever ascended into heaven before, when one of the major OT prophets did just that?

It says this in all the bible gateway translations and is a legitimate question, unless you are too lazy to ask it.

I've already addressed this with you - Elijah did not ascend into Heaven by his own power but was taken up in a whirlwind. Christ ascended up into heaven by his own power.

If that's not good enough for you, here are a couple of detailed responses to that very question:

http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=6&article=654

http://www.tektonics.org/af/firstascent.html

[underdawg]

I just wanted to clarify.

You believe in virgin birth, people coming back from the dead and other such magic. You believing that aliens have visited earth wouldn't have surprised me much.

Are a virgin birth, resurrection of the dead and other miracles more unvbelievalbe than believing that God created the universe?

If God was able to create the universe and man, why would any of the miracles be impossible?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

There's actually quite a bit of archaeological evidence that supports the Bible, but don't take my word for it go look it up.

Again - where did Paul invoke the law over grace? Give me a chapter and a verse please.

Where did Paul say that women were inferior to men? Give me a chapter and a verse please.

I gave you examples of how the New Testament went against the grain of thinking at that time of women as 2nd class citizens - I did not say it was because of the time period.

Jesus' teachings dealt directly with the hypocrisy of men to say one thing on the outside and to believe another in their hearts. This is why he challenged the Pharisees on their self righteous belief that they were good because they didn't kill, but in their hearts they hated their brother (Matthew 5:21-22). This is the purpose of the new covenant (as I stated previously) to take away the physical worship that had been perverted and to replace it with spiritual worship that was possible because Christ fulfilled the law.

There is archaeological evidence that citys or people existed but as for the miracles? There is none. I do think its awesome that you think Jonah lived int he whale and that the entire earth was covered in water for 40 days in the course of written history or that God really sponsored a barbeque for his priest class.

As for women, I didn't say anything about trumping anything. I get now that when you say you look at the Bible as a whole what that really means is you have your verse from Romans that you use as a fiat to pick and choose. Now you are just talking about in general terms.

Bottom line is that Paul told both Tim and the Corinthians that women were to be subservient and to the corinthians he said that was the law. You can point to a later contradiction but that just goes to the point that is being made: Paul just made shit up as he went along. You will note his similarity to modern politicians as he tries to sell his brand to the various churches and constancy is not one of his virtues.

I will say it again the Council in Nice choosing the works of Paul and then later exiling the nestorians was one of the greatest tragedies in human history.

What you should note is that most of what you bring up is not from Jesus. Its from Paul whose edicts you follow more closely. You certainly reference them more.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Are a virgin birth, resurrection of the dead and other miracles more unvbelievalbe than believing that God created the universe?

If God was able to create the universe and man, why would any of the miracles be impossible?

Thats the whole argument about omnipotence. Just invoke that and your covered. Its nonsense but whatever makes you feel better.

[Blake]

not being lazy, but just a better explanation than I could give:

A myth propped up by secular skeptics is that Scripture sanctions slavery. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
First, it should be noted that far from extolling the virtues of slavery, the Bible denounces slavery as sin. The New Testament goes so far as to put slave traders in the same category as murderers, adulterers, perverts, and liars (1 Timothy 1:10).

Furthermore, slavery within the Old Testament context was sanctioned due to economic realities rather than racial or sexual prejudices. Because bankruptcy laws did not exist, people would voluntarily sell themselves into slavery. A craftsman could thus use his skills in servitude to discharge a debt. Even a convicted thief could make restitution by serving as a slave (Exodus 22:3).

Finally, while the Bible as a whole recognizes the reality of slavery, it never promotes the practice of slavery. In fact, it was the application of biblical principles that ultimately led to the overthrow of slavery, both in ancient Israel and in the United States of America. Israel’s liberation from slavery in Egypt became the model for the liberation of slaves in general. In America, many are beginning to wake up to the liberating biblical truth that all people are created by God with innate equality (Genesis 1:27; Acts 17:26–28; Galatians 3:28).
http://www.equip.org/bible_answers/does-the-bible-promote-slavery-

Fathers were allowed to sell daughters. It also allowed for non-Hebrew slaves to be owned indefinitely....passed down father to son.

Sorry, but there is never a righteous humanitarian reason to "own" another human, and if you are actively participating in it, then you are endorsing it.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Please clarify this question.

John 14:6 - I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Fathers were allowed to sell daughters. It also allowed for non-Hebrew slaves to be owned indefinitely....passed down father to son.

Sorry, but there is never a righteous humanitarian reason to "own" another human, and if you are actively participating in it, then you are endorsing it.

Yup that was also in all of the code of laws supposedly handed down by God.

[all_heart]

John 14:6 - I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Okay... so what's the question?

[all_heart]

Yup that was also in all of the code of laws supposedly handed down by God.

Didn't Underdawg, explain this above? ^

So you think Christians support slavery?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Didn't Underdawg, explain this above? ^

So you think Christians support slavery?

No. i am saying that the Bible institutionalized it. I'm sure some in the south still invoke those passages to this day. I do not expect christians to be consistent. Its impossible given their doctrine.

[Blake]

I've already addressed this with you - Elijah did not ascend into Heaven by his own power but was taken up in a whirlwind. Christ ascended up into heaven by his own power.

If that's not good enough for you, here are a couple of detailed responses to that very question:

http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=6&article=654

This link says the skeptic's claim is unsubstantiated. If so, why the need to address it?

The author really did nothing but spin with guesses, as is usually the case.



http://www.tektonics.org/af/firstascent.html

So Elijah was simply taken up into the sky.....but not Heaven....?

That makes no sense unless you want to start more guessing as to where Old Testament believers go to when they die.

[all_heart]

No. i am saying that the Bible institutionalized it. I'm sure some in the south still invoke those passages to this day. I do not expect christians to be consistent. Its impossible given their doctrine.

So now you think some southern Christians think slavery is ok? Wow.

[all_heart]

This link says the skeptic's claim is unsubstantiated. If so, why the need to address it?

uhh... HELLO!!! Do you fight with your waiter, when they bring you what you ordered?! :lol

The author really did nothing but spin with guesses, as is usually the case.

I'd say it's a pretty good "guess", isn't this what you do too?



So Elijah was simply taken up into the sky.....but not Heaven....?

That makes no sense unless you want to start more guessing as to where Old Testament believers go to when they die.

Maybe he didn't die at all, they did look for him afterwards but couldn't find him.

[Blake]

Of course... I figured you would say something like that.

Let me ask you something, what if I'm right and you are wrong and vice versa?

If you are right, then God is going to have me burned alive for eternity for simply not believing in Jesus. Why can't he just let me disappear into nothingness when I die?

Oh, and law of averages says you'll be living in the same gated community with murderers and rapists. :tu

[Blake]

bla bla bla

[Blake]

So now you think some southern Christians think slavery is ok? Wow.

They did in the 1800s.

They had plenty of Bible verses to justify it.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

So now you think some southern Christians think slavery is ok? Wow.

I realize you have no context of history but those passages were widely cited by the southern states and their advocates as justification for slavery in the 19th century. Christianity has been around for 2000 years. this notion that slavery should be abolished really only gained traction in the 18th centruy.

I suppose you have never been to rural Mississippi but I guarantee you some of them would have no problem with reenslaving their ancestors former slaves.

[all_heart]

If you are right, then God is going to have me burned alive for eternity for simply not believing in Jesus. Why can't he just let me disappear into nothingness when I die?

Oh, and law of averages says you'll be living in the same gated community with murderers and rapists. :tu

Maybe it's not "fire" but emotional sadness and loneliness, does that make you feel better? You have a choice Blake.

For me it's hard to fathom, a soul just dying out like a light bulb.

Perhaps murders and rapists here on this Earth, but if they are in heaven, then they will have been forgiven and not recognized as criminals.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Maybe it's not "fire" but emotional sadness and loneliness, does that make you feel better? You have a choice Blake.

For me it's hard to fathom, a soul just dying out like a light bulb.

Perhaps murders and rapists here on this Earth, but if they are in heaven, then they will have been forgiven and not recognized as criminals.

Maybe you can just make up more shit with no justification for it to try and explain that which is obviously absurd.

[Blake]

Are a virgin birth, resurrection of the dead and other miracles more unvbelievalbe than believing that God created the universe?

If God was able to create the universe and man, why would any of the miracles be impossible?

If man has free will in heaven and God really wants some friends, why did he put us on earth first? Why allow Satan in to screw us over?

Lazy answer: "thou shalt not question thy God. Thou cannotst knowest his mindeth."

[FuzzyLumpkins]

If man has free will in heaven and he really wants some friends, why did he put us on earth first? Why allow Satan in to screw us over?

Every good story needs its villain.

[all_heart]

Maybe you can just make up more shit with no justification for it to try and explain that which is obviously absurd.

Not trying to prove something, just throwing it out there for ya to chew on...

The only thing obvious is that you lost your faith, do you feel your life is better w/out faith?

[Blake]

Maybe it's not "fire" but emotional sadness and loneliness, does that make you feel better? You have a choice Blake.

Depending on who you ask about hell or sheole, you could be right.


For me it's hard to fathom, a soul just dying out like a light bulb.

Perhaps murders and rapists here on this Earth, but if they are in heaven, then they will have been forgiven and not recognized as criminals.

Hard to fathom a god of love torturing his own creations.

I find the idea of a kidnapping child molester getting rewarded with heaven deplorable.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Not trying to prove something, just throwing it out there for ya to chew on...

The only thing obvious is that you lost your faith, do you feel your life is better w/out faith?

Without a doubt. I feel closer to God.

[all_heart]

If man has free will in heaven and God really wants some friends, why did he put us on earth first? Why allow Satan in to screw us over?

Lazy answer: "thou shalt not question thy God. Thou cannotst knowest his mindeth."

Good question. You almost sound like you want to believe in God.

[DisAsTerBot]

Without a doubt. I feel closer to God.

+1. Except i would say i feel more spiritual and aware

[all_heart]

Depending on who you ask about hell or sheole, you could be right.



Hard to fathom a god of love torturing his own creations.

I find the idea of a kidnapping child molester getting rewarded with heaven deplorable.

Still harder to imagine your soul, your being just dying out. It's the choices we make in life that decides our fate.

I do too, BUT even a monster can sincerely choose redemption.

[all_heart]

Without a doubt. I feel closer to God.

What God? How so if you don't believe anymore?

[Blake]

Every good story needs its villain.

And a hero to give money to

[Blake]

Good question. You almost sound like you want to believe in God.

I think most humans don't want to believe that death is the end.

[DMC]

Still harder to imagine your soul, your being just dying out. It's the choices we make in life that decides our fate.

I do too, BUT even a monster can sincerely choose redemption.
It's hard to imagine that you are comprised of atoms, but you are. Incredulity was never a marker against truth.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

What God? How so if you don't believe anymore?

I never said that I do not believe that God exists. I do not believe in Christianity. I think its contrived nonsense.

[DMC]

If you are right, then God is going to have me burned alive for eternity for simply not believing in Jesus. Why can't he just let me disappear into nothingness when I die?

Oh, and law of averages says you'll be living in the same gated community with murderers and rapists. :tu
And you might inquire as to your origin, where were you before you were conceived? Hard to imagine that for all time before that, you were nothingness.

[underdawg]

Fathers were allowed to sell daughters. It also allowed for non-Hebrew slaves to be owned indefinitely....passed down father to son.

Sorry, but there is never a righteous humanitarian reason to "own" another human, and if you are actively participating in it, then you are endorsing it.

they didn't own another human - they became their bondservant for a period of 7 years & they were to be treated fairly Leviticus 25:39-55

and what is righteous anyway? Where do you get your standards of morality from? just curious

[all_heart]

I think most humans don't want to believe that death is the end.

But that's what you believe. How does that make you feel?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Still harder to imagine your soul, your being just dying out. It's the choices we make in life that decides our fate.

I do too, BUT even a monster can sincerely choose redemption.

Harder? This is just fear of death. There is no evidence that reality includes a soul. That actually one of the reasons why I am so interested in brain and nervous physiology because if you can reduce all experience and behavior to that then where is the room for the soul?

There is no real justification for the claim that the soul actually exists beyond mystic bullshit.

[underdawg]

They did in the 1800s.

They had plenty of Bible verses to justify it.

and who led the fight against slavery?

[all_heart]

I never said that I do not believe that God exists. I do not believe in Christianity. I think its contrived nonsense.

So what doctrine do you follow?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

So what doctrine do you follow?

none. i believe in no doctrine as concerns God.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

and who led the fight against slavery?

The northern geographical region of the united states. Everything north of the mason dixon line and northern virginia. If you think christians were this unified force against slavery in the south as well you are deluding yourself.

[Blake]

and who led the fight against slavery?

The true Scotsman

[underdawg]

The northern geographical region of the united states. Everything north of the mason dixon line and northern virginia. If you think christians were this unified force against slavery in the south as well you are deluding yourself.

did these folks about the mason dixon line have any religous beliefs or religous background?

[underdawg]

The true Scotsman

can you please find me a definition of "true Scotsman" that would apply to the question I asked?

[all_heart]

none. i believe in no doctrine as concerns God.

Quit screwing around, what do you believe in? What religion are you? Do you believe in a God at all? Spill the beans.

[Blake]

they didn't own another human - they became their bondservant for a period of 7 years & they were to be treated fairly Leviticus 25:39-55

Wrong. I just told you that the law allowed non-Hebrews to be owned indefinitely and even passed down to heirs.

If you can't find such a law, just let me know and I'll copy paste it.


and what is righteous anyway? Where do you get your standards of morality from? just curious

Many different things make up a persons moral code, imo. Environment, history, feelings to start.

I think we can all agree in the year 2012 that slavery is unrighteous....which means that this particular part of my (our) moral code didn't come from God.

[DisAsTerBot]

Quit screwing around, what do you believe in? What religion are you? Do you believe in a God at all? Spill the beans.

you can believe in "GOD" without being part of a religion. Shocking I know....but but but what doctrine will i follow?!?!?!!?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Quit screwing around, what do you believe in? What religion are you? Do you believe in a God at all? Spill the beans.

I am not screwing around. I will admit that I ambivalent between theism and agnosticism but there is no doctrine as pertains God that I believe in. Sorry that you require someone to dictate what God is. I have no such inhibition.

[Blake]

can you please find me a definition of "true Scotsman" that would apply to the question I asked?

No true Christian plantation owner would ever own a slave!

[underdawg]

Wrong. I just told you that the law allowed non-Hebrews to be owned indefinitely and even passed down to heirs.

If you can't find such a law, just let me know and I'll copy paste it.



Many different things make up a persons moral code, imo. Environment, history, feelings to start.

I think we can all agree in the year 2012 that slavery is unrighteous....which means that this particular part of my (our) moral code didn't come from God.

They were also allowed become rich (vs. 47) - sounds pretty harsh

you described influences to your morality (per my question) but where do you think morality comes from? Is that something that has evolved? Is it something that is present in other animals?

[underdawg]

The northern geographical region of the united states. Everything north of the mason dixon line and northern virginia. If you think christians were this unified force against slavery in the south as well you are deluding yourself.

History channel is delusional too:

The goal of the abolitionist movement was the immediate emancipation of all slaves and the end of racial discrimination and segregation. Advocating for immediate emancipation distinguished abolitionists from more moderate anti-slavery advocates who argued for gradual emancipation, and from free-soil activists who sought to restrict slavery to existing areas and prevent its spread further west. Radical abolitionism was partly fueled by the religious fervor of the Second Great Awakening, which prompted many people to advocate for emancipation on religious grounds. Abolitionist ideas became increasingly prominent in Northern churches and politics beginning in the 1830s, which contributed to the regional animosity between North and South leading up to the Civil War.
http://www.history.com/topics/abolitionist-movement

[FuzzyLumpkins]

did these folks about the mason dixon line have any religous beliefs or religous background?

what are you talking about. the point is that christians in the south indeed publicly supported slavery in the 19th century just as some opposed it. At least the ones that supported it had scripture to back them up.

there was no way Paul was going to tell the Romans they could not have slaves. quite the contrary actually. he supported their hegemony.

[DisAsTerBot]

They were also allowed become rich (vs. 47) - sounds pretty harsh

you described influences to your morality (per my question) but where do you think morality comes from? Is that something that has evolved? Is it something that is present in other animals?

are you saying without religion the basic idea of being good to someone because you want them to be good to you wouldnt exist?!?!?!

the "good" teachings of christianity are pretty much common sense.

[monkeypunk]

What I can't decide is whether this thread belongs in the Politics forum or the Trolls forum...

:downspin:

[FuzzyLumpkins]

History channel is delusional too:

The goal of the abolitionist movement was the immediate emancipation of all slaves and the end of racial discrimination and segregation. Advocating for immediate emancipation distinguished abolitionists from more moderate anti-slavery advocates who argued for gradual emancipation, and from free-soil activists who sought to restrict slavery to existing areas and prevent its spread further west. Radical abolitionism was partly fueled by the religious fervor of the Second Great Awakening, which prompted many people to advocate for emancipation on religious grounds. Abolitionist ideas became increasingly prominent in Northern churches and politics beginning in the 1830s, which contributed to the regional animosity between North and South leading up to the Civil War.
http://www.history.com/topics/abolitionist-movement

lol the history channel. don't they do stuff on crop circles and the like?

regardless, read the bolded. you're still missing the point.

[DMC]

they didn't own another human - they became their bondservant for a period of 7 years & they were to be treated fairly Leviticus 25:39-55

and what is righteous anyway? Where do you get your standards of morality from? just curious
Exodus 21:20-21

King James Version (KJV)

20And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
21Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.




That's fair. I mean, two days after and he dies? Could have been anything.

[DMC]

The list of logical fallacies during debates should have it's name changed to "Theist Reasoning Handbook".

[Blake]

They were also allowed become rich (vs. 47) - sounds pretty harsh

Golly. Slavery during that time sounds wonderful!


you described influences to your morality (per my question) but where do you think morality comes from? Is that something that has evolved? Is it something that is present in other animals?

As a society, absolutely our morality has evolved.

Some people "long for the good ol days" which is a load of crap. Morally speaking, even though we have far to go, we are still living in the greatest era this world has ever known with unprecedented movements towards understanding and tolerance of others.
I believe the Bible never helped us get to this point and may have actually stunted our moral growth in many ways.

On an individual basis, I can't speak for how others make up their moral codes.

[underdawg]

Golly. Slavery during that time sounds wonderful!



As a society, absolutely our morality has evolved.

Some people "long for the good ol days" which is a load of crap. Morally speaking, even though we have far to go, we are still living in the greatest era this world has ever known with unprecedented movements towards understanding and tolerance of others.
I believe the Bible never helped us get to this point and may have actually stunted our moral growth in many ways.

On an individual basis, I can't speak for how others make up their moral codes.

Given your own explanation of where your morality comes from, a white guy in the 1800's with the same philosophy as you probably would not have been against slavery.

As a society, our morality has evolved how? Are families better, has crime gone down, are there less wars, are there less murders, are there less addicts, is there less child molestation, are there less poor?

[underdawg]

are you saying without religion the basic idea of being good to someone because you want them to be good to you wouldnt exist?!?!?!

the "good" teachings of christianity are pretty much common sense.

Yes, I believe God gives us our conscience regardless of whether or not we believe in him. If there is no God, I don't know where our conscience comes from or at least I'm not familiar with the scientific explanation of morality and conscience.

[Blake]

Given your own explanation of where your morality comes from, a white guy in the 1800's with the same philosophy as you probably would not have been against slavery.

Huh? Why would you conclude that?


As a society, our morality has evolved how? Are families better, has crime gone down, are there less wars, are there less murders, are there less addicts, is there less child molestation, are there less poor?

Lots of straw here.

I mentioned we still have far to go. You forgot to mention that gays still can't get married here.

[underdawg]

lol the history channel. don't they do stuff on crop circles and the like?

regardless, read the bolded. you're still missing the point.

Look - I'm not saying the southerners didn't call themselves or believe they were Christians. However, their actions did not reflect the teachings of Jesus and there were Christians in the north that understood that.

The bad actions of people that call themselves Christians do not make the Bible untrue. There are many in America that say they are Christians, but their actions do not reflect the teachings of Jesus Christ.

[Yuixafun]

Was it reasonable to believe man would sin? If God is omniscient, he would have know that man would sin and fuck up.



God hates sin, yet in his omniscience, he created man knowing that he would sin......in essence purposely creating something that he hates.

Pretty fucked up, imo.



Why didn't God create a man with free will that wouldn't fuck up?

Why dangle that apple?

If God created man so he wouldn't fuck up, that means God is controlling the results of your actions? Which means... there is no free will.
Also... God can be all powerful and all knowing... but why does God need to be perfect?
God not being perfect would explain a lot.

Maybe God created us just to see what would happen.

-----
I was wary of coming into this thread, and for the first few pages I was surprised because it stayed on topic, and it was enjoyable to see people's whimsical thoughts on a well loved players beliefs.

But then playful banter devolves into competitions of egos. I see a lot of people quarreling instead of having healthy discussion.

I'd rather just talk and see if we can discover some truth, instead of trying to see who has the right answer. :rolleyes

----

As far as thoughts of the Soul... I would say it exists.

I imagine it as a compass and sunlight.
It guides my self and gives it a direction to grow.
I can choose whether to follow or go someplace else.

When I have an experience there is a reaction to the results.
Maybe I do something that I feel is wrong, or that it's sinful.
Or maybe I just had an amazing moment.
What I feel or think due to the conflict or harmony as a result of an experience, is when I am most aware of my soul.
----

Constant, status quo's - the things you know are the enemies of the things you don't... growth depends on nutrients - escape the loop you're in, skip the track and go off road! 
Fertilizer feeds the soil, crop yields... increase from amount of toils. What's the spoils? Live rich happiness is our inheritance become loving parents raise kids. Give all that you can give because life anyway is a gift.

[Blake]

Look - I'm not saying the southerners didn't call themselves or believe they were Christians. However, their actions did not reflect the teachings of Jesus and there were Christians in the north that understood that.

The bad actions of people that call themselves Christians do not make the Bible untrue. There are many in America that say they are Christians, but their actions do not reflect the teachings of Jesus Christ.

You're wearing a kilt, aren't you

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Look - I'm not saying the southerners didn't call themselves or believe they were Christians. However, their actions did not reflect the teachings of Jesus and there were Christians in the north that understood that.

The bad actions of people that call themselves Christians do not make the Bible untrue. There are many in America that say they are Christians, but their actions do not reflect the teachings of Jesus Christ.

and there is the 'true scotsman' argument. THOSE CHRISTIANS AREN'T REAL CHRISTIANS.

no that just how all christians were when slavery was considered normal which is all the way up until the 19th century.

and most of what you claim doesn't even come from jesus. it comes mostly from paul and john. then of course there is the old testament. the council of nice was a travesty.

the bible codified how to treat your slaves. which is true?

[pgardn]

Yes, I believe that God created living things seperately (in that they didn't evolve into another species) and I also believe that he designed each living organism to adapt to its environment.

As far as chemo or medicine or whatever you remarkably feel that Christians are opposed to, I will be the first to tell you that if I had a loved one with cancer and the doctors felt chemo was necessary I'd be for it. And for the record, I also take trips on those metal birds in the sky too.

So science has a very nice mechanism for macroevolution, yes very nice, and it does not involve the supernatural, but you choose the supernatural and forget the good science behind it because Evolution does not fit.

Do you know the Catholic Church has absolutely no problem with Evolution? Are Catholics still Christians, even though they choose the scientific explanation over the supernatural. Have the Popes and all their advisors (since 1959) read the bible inaccurately, but you got the real scoop?

[Blake]

If God created man so he wouldn't fuck up, that means God is controlling the results of your actions? Which means... there is no free will.
Also... God can be all powerful and all knowing... but why does God need to be perfect?
God not being perfect would explain a lot.

Maybe God created us just to see what would happen.



We are talking about Bible God.

Matthew 5:48 says God is perfect

[pgardn]

Yes, I believe that God created living things seperately (in that they didn't evolve into another species) and I also believe that he designed each living organism to adapt to its environment.



So we have about 80,000 separate species of beetles. Any idea of why God was so fond of beetles?

75% of all animal species are arthropods. Insects, lobsters and crabs, millipedes, etc... were definitely on his mind.

No love for mammals at all based on number of species created.

[DMC]

Given your own explanation of where your morality comes from, a white guy in the 1800's with the same philosophy as you probably would not have been against slavery.

As a society, our morality has evolved how? Are families better, has crime gone down, are there less wars, are there less murders, are there less addicts, is there less child molestation, are there less poor?
Is the purpose of morality to make the world a better place to live?

Isn't the Christian stance on this that morality is a code ingrained into our beings by God himself in order to please God himself?

Is God pleased by a world that's a good place to live, and if so, why did he destroy it? People were fucking in the streets, sounds ok to me.

[disciple]

Turn a blind eye to why you believe what you believe.

Never self examine and, never get in the deep end.


You call that 'twisting' my faith? Pretty shallow.

Come on, challenge what I believe.

[disciple]

Like what?

anything that lasts beyond our lives.

[disciple]

The implication again being that there is no free will in heaven because God is scared our free will will change it dramatically?

Blake,

Your anger is blocking your intelligence.

Where did I ever say ANYTHING about free will in heaven?

Follow along closer please.

[pgardn]

You call that 'twisting' my faith? Pretty shallow.

Come on, challenge what I believe.

I am not trying to twist your faith son. And I would never challenge what you believe.

I immediately think when trying to understand someone like you is:

"Do not try to reason a man out of something he did not reason himself into."

So... None of this for you::bang

[all_heart]

I am not screwing around. I will admit that I ambivalent between theism and agnosticism but there is no doctrine as pertains God that I believe in. Sorry that you require someone to dictate what God is. I have no such inhibition.

So basically you are not sure what to believe in. From all your previous posts it seems you already made up your mind, at least towards Christianity. Hope you find yourself.

[pgardn]

So basically you are not sure what to believe in. From all your previous posts it seems you already made up your mind, at least towards Christianity. Hope you find yourself.

What exactly is wrong with admitting you are not sure? It may disturb you not to "find yourself", but it is highly possible that he is just fine saying he is not sure.

[all_heart]

What exactly is wrong with admitting you are not sure? It may disturb you not to "find yourself", but it is highly possible that he is just fine saying he is not sure.

If I understand his post correctly, he's undecided in what he believes. Who said there was anything wrong with that? If you go back and look at his posts, you can clearly see that he's at odds w/Christianity. Just stating a fact. I wasn't being a smartass when I said I hope he finds himself.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

So basically you are not sure what to believe in. From all your previous posts it seems you already made up your mind, at least towards Christianity. Hope you find yourself.

No, I most definitely have made up my mind about Christianity. There is no doubt in my mind that the Bible is a book of fairy tales that have as much divine guidance as Aesop's Fables.

I'm very self aware of who i am, what I am capable of and what I am going to do. I don't need to believe a lie to do that. Sounds to me like you just do not know of any other way. Not knowing is not despair. Sorry.

[all_heart]

No, I most definitely have made up my mind about Christianity. There is no doubt in my mind that the Bible is a book of fairy tales that have as much divine guidance as Aesop's Fables.

I'm very self aware of who i am, what I am capable of and what I am going to do. I don't need to believe a lie to do that. Sounds to me like you just do not know of any other way. Not knowing is not despair. Sorry.

So to clarify, you are an atheist? If I'm wrong please break it down.

I realize there are other ways to be happy, but you make it seem you are not sure of what you believe in that specific post.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

So to clarify, you are an atheist? If I'm wrong please break it down.

I'm not big on being labeled in your holy crusade for starters. I do not believe in the God of the Bible.

[all_heart]

I'm not big on being labeled in your holy crusade for starters. I do not believe in the God of the Bible.

I'm not trying to label you, it's just everybody else here has pretty much spelled out what they believe but you want to keep yourself a mystery.

[benfti]

What is Patty Mills religion is going to be an interesting thread

[FuzzyLumpkins]

What is Patty Mills religion is going to be an interesting thread

Is it aboriginal?

[DMC]

anything that lasts beyond our lives.
Like our debt?

[benfti]

Is it aboriginal?

indeed, known as The Dreaming.

The basis of the belief is that at the beginning of the dreaming the world was a baron and features plain, and the great spirit enlisted a giant rainbow serpent to shape the land.

Its fascinating stuff.

edit. I assume its his religion, as he is most certainly Australian Aboriginal. He did go to a Catholic Collage though???

[FuzzyLumpkins]

indeed, known as The Dreaming.

The basis of the belief is that at the beginning of the dreaming the world was a baron and features plain, and the great spirit enlisted a giant rainbow serpent to shape the land.

Its fascinating stuff.

edit. I assume its his religion, as he is most certainly Australian Aboriginal. He did go to a Catholic Collage though???

Do they eat anything to assist the dream state? I know a lot of S. American tribes do similar things but the eat yage and the like to assist.

You also seem much more tolerant of aborigines than most aussies i know.

[benfti]

Do they eat anything to assist the dream state? I know a lot of S. American tribes do similar things but the eat yage and the like to assist.

You also seem much more tolerant of aborigines than most aussies i know.

nah, its more an natural thing. The dream time is more just how they refer to their history.

Im probably more tolerant than the average because my parents are migrants (dutch) and I am well the aborigines were here first (50 million years first) and that needs to be respected. Not many other countries on earth have that sort of ties to their lands heritage.

[benfti]

seriously though, just on Patty Mills.

20 years ago an Aboriginal man would have had more chance of being the first man on mars than making it to the NBA. Aboriginals make up less than 2% our population (ap. 500,000) well over half of these still live in remote communities, and a large portion of those dont even have english as their first language, they live in near 3rd world conditions. Some people here will go their entire life without ever having spoken with an Aboriginal person.

Patty Mills in an outright superhero, overcoming insurmountable obsticals just to be able to get a chance to be part of any sort of system, that would eventually lead to the opportunity he has now, im talking stories as challenging as Manute Bol and Dikembe Mutumbo, they where giants which helped, he is only 6'0 tall.

He is an absolute credit to his family, his people and this country. The Spurs are so lucky to have a person of his character, drive and determination to succeed against all odds.

to top it off, he is (I'm being very Aussie here) a ripping bloke to boot.

[phyzik]

6mmskXXetcg

-k1Jr0fp0dE

of course, I have no doubt that religious people will ignore these video's.... but I would like for at least 1 person to set aside their beliefs (be they religious, Athiest or somewhere in between) and just THINK for a moment on what these 2 are saying absent of any pre-concieved beliefs.

THINK!

[pgardn]

Ahhh Richard Dawkins. A very bright fellow.

Imo, after he wrote, "The Selfish Gene", he spent a whole lot of time and made (makes) a whole lot of money baiting religious groups. But not near as much money as Pastor Happy Face in Houston and Pastor John (Im HUGE) Hagee here in San Antonio.

It is amazing how much money mining guilt can bring in. Guilt should be sold on commodity markets, and the two mentioned above, should have to pay taxes on their industries.

[Blake]

Blake,

Your anger is blocking your intelligence.

Where did I ever say ANYTHING about free will in heaven?

Follow along closer please.

lol anger

You didn't say it, but the free will paradox pops up here.

Follow the logic please:

1. God promises eternal life to believers.

2. God cannot have sin in Heaven.

3. Therefore
A. you no longer have free will in heaven or
B. if you do and God kicks you out like Lucifer for sinning, then he broke his promise of eternal life to you.

[DMC]

So basically you are not sure what to believe in. From all your previous posts it seems you already made up your mind, at least towards Christianity. Hope you find yourself.
I have prayed to the non-isomorphic god. He will be fine now.

[disciple]

I am not trying to twist your faith son. And I would never challenge what you believe.

------ -----------

This from the person that said:

"When you state the bolded, then you leave yourself open to questioning about how you came to this conclusion/judgement. "Do you have a phone line to the big-fella" etc... This is where people of faith get themselves in deep do-do."

Your Laughable.

-------- ----------

You also said, "Faith does not happen out of nowhere"

Do you understand the actual definition of faith? Here it is: 'the belief in something especially without logical proof'.

Since no logical proof is needed than a person could gain faith from nowhere.

--------- ----------

You also said 'faith, which is also based on a type of reason'.

Again, you are incorrect based on the definition of faith.

---------- -----------

[disciple]

Like our debt?


I understand your comedic response. It's ok !

[disciple]

lol anger

You didn't say it, but the free will paradox pops up here.

Follow the logic please:

1. God promises eternal life to believers.

2. God cannot have sin in Heaven.

3. Therefore
A. you no longer have free will in heaven or
B. if you do and God kicks you out like Lucifer for sinning, then he broke his promise of eternal life to you.


Ummmm, again you are making assumptions about me. Did I ever say there is no sin in heaven?

If you knew anything about scripture you would know that Satan has access to heaven. In Job 1 and 2 it tells us he stood before the thrown of God arguing about Job. Your entire premise is bunk.

[Fernando TD21]

6mmskXXetcg

-k1Jr0fp0dE

of course, I have no doubt that religious people will ignore these video's.... but I would like for at least 1 person to set aside their beliefs (be they religious, Athiest or somewhere in between) and just THINK for a moment on what these 2 are saying absent of any pre-concieved beliefs.

THINK!
What's so amazing about these videos? The first guy evades the question and says some obvious stuff. People who are born in different places can have different religions and everyone can be wrong.

The second guy gives some interesting facts but he doesn't tell the whole story. I can make a lot of good people look like villains by picking some facts.

[pgardn]

------ -----------

This from the person that said:

"When you state the bolded, then you leave yourself open to questioning about how you came to this conclusion/judgement. "Do you have a phone line to the big-fella" etc... This is where people of faith get themselves in deep do-do."

Your Laughable.

-------- ----------

You also said, "Faith does not happen out of nowhere"

Do you understand the actual definition of faith? Here it is: 'the belief in something especially without logical proof'.

Since no logical proof is needed than a person could gain faith from nowhere.

--------- ----------

You also said 'faith, which is also based on a type of reason'.

Again, you are incorrect based on the definition of faith.

---------- -----------

Just because there is no logic in your faith does not mean you did not try to reason it out. If you believe in something, there must be some faith in what you believe. It does not come out of nowhere. You were not born in an isolated bubble.

And just attempt to be truthful please. You said your faith does not use logic for purposes of reasoning. Thats fine. Just dont try to use logic to prove your way, is the way, with someone who does use logic. You will get twisted like a pretzel.

Your beliefs are based on something. They did not come out of nowhere. You can try to convince yourself this is not true all you want. I have no problem with your ability to lie to yourself. Quit the smartass stuff like you are some sacrosanct monk. If your faith comes from hallucinations while dropping acid it still has some origin. Even if a lighting bolt hit you in the head or you were dropped on your head...

[Blake]

Ummmm, again you are making assumptions about me. Did I ever say there is no sin in heaven?

I don't care about you. We are talking about what the Bible says:

Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it [heaven] any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.


If you knew anything about scripture you would know that Satan has access to heaven. In Job 1 and 2 it tells us he stood before the thrown of God arguing about Job. Your entire premise is bunk.

You just helped point out another biblical contradiction, again showing how the entire Bible is bunk.

[all_heart]

What's so amazing about these videos? The first guy evades the question and says some obvious stuff. People who are born in different places can have different religions and everyone can be wrong.

The second guy gives some interesting facts but he doesn't tell the whole story. I can make a lot of good people look like villains by picking some facts.

Exactly!

Picking on Mother Teresa?! Really? Her body of work is amazing, to ignore it and say she is a fraud just shows that he's a hater.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Exactly!

Picking on Mother Teresa?! Really? Her body of work is amazing, to ignore it and say she is a fraud just shows that he's a hater.

What did he miss? TBH I have not paid attention to her beyond to think that the catholic policy against birth control was very bad for the country with the largest population density in the world.

[all_heart]

I don't care about you. We are talking about what the Bible says:

Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it [heaven] any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.



You just helped point out another biblical contradiction, again showing how the entire Bible is bunk.

Satan had a "visitor" badge, while he was there, he wasn't there to chill or to enjoy himself. He was on "official" business.

[all_heart]

What did he miss? TBH I have not paid attention to her beyond to think that the catholic policy against birth control was very bad for the country with the largest population density in the world.

She may have had a VERY traditional stance on BC, which you can argue against, but there is no denying she helped the sick and the poor, no matter what religion they were. He was being very petty picking on her. Read up on her.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

She may have had a VERY traditional stance on BC, which you can argue against, but there is no denying she helped the sick and the poor, no matter what religion they were. He was being very petty picking on her. Read up on her.

How did she help the poor beyond ignoring the asinine caste system? You are the one making these claims and unlike you I do not just take what for now are baseless claims on faith.

[all_heart]

How did she help the poor beyond ignoring the asinine caste system? You are the one making these claims and unlike you I do not just take what for now are baseless claims on faith.

I don't get what you are asking? Claims? Do you know anything about her? Really.. read up on her.

[Blake]

Satan had a "visitor" badge, while he was there, he wasn't there to chill or to enjoy himself. He was on "official" business.

Video conferencing was unavailable at the time.

[all_heart]

Video conferencing was unavailable at the time.

exactly! :rolleyes

[Blake]

exactly! :rolleyes

I wonder if the dvr functions are confusing to God.

He'd probably like to record Hagee or Olsteen but can't figure it out

[phyzik]

What's so amazing about these videos? The first guy evades the question and says some obvious stuff. People who are born in different places can have different religions and everyone can be wrong.

The second guy gives some interesting facts but he doesn't tell the whole story. I can make a lot of good people look like villains by picking some facts.

Your obviously missing the point... Richard Dawkins DOESNT evade the question in the first video... he simply reversed the assinine question back to the ignorant asker... You (or anyone else) can claim to believe in a certain deity... What makes you right? What proof do YOU have? What if YOUR wrong?

As far as the "second guy" you should really look him up. Christopher Hitchens was (and is) probably the greatest intillectual of our time until he passed away a few months ago.

Now, you said "People who are born in different places can have different religions and everyone can be wrong." So what makes you right? What makes anyone right? What makes Christianity right? what makes Hinduism right? what makes the belief in Thor right?

Do you even get what Im trying to say here?

Do you even acknowledge the fact that religious beliefs are completely man made?

Do you even realize that the first hand-written English language bible manuscripts wheren't even published until sometime in the 1380's?

Not only that, but did you know that just about EVERY story in the bible is based off of a previous religion that pre-dates the story of Genisis?

Look up the story of Gilgamesh which is 100's of years before the bible...

1.God decided to send a worldwide flood. This would drown men, women, children, babies and infants, as well as eliminate all of the land animals and birds.

2.God knew of one righteous man, Ut-Napishtim or Noah.

3.God ordered the hero to build a multi-story wooden ark (called a chest or box in the original Hebrew), and the hero initially complained about the assignment to build the boat
.
4.The arc would have many compartments, a single door, be sealed with pitch and would house one of every animal species.

5.A great rain covered the land with water.

6.The arc landed on a mountain in the Middle East.

7.The first two birds returned to the ark. The third bird apparently found dry land because it did not return.

8.The hero and his family left the ark, ritually killed an animal, offered it as a sacrifice.

9.The Babylonian gods seemed genuinely sorry for the genocide that they had created. The God of Noah appears to have regretted his actions as well, because he promised never to do it again.


Ohh, lets not forget Jesus!!!

1.Asklepios healed the sick, raised the dead, and was known as the savior and redeemer.

2.Hercules was born of a divine father and mortal mother and was known as the savior of the world. Prophets foretold his birth and claimed he would be a king, which started a search by a leader who wanted to kill him. He walked on water and told his mother, "Don't cry, I'm going to heaven." when he died. As he passed he said, "It is finished."

3.Dionysus was literally the "Son of God", was born of a virgin mother, and was commonly depicted riding a donkey. He healed the sick and turned water to wine. He was killed but was resurrected and became immortal. His greatest accomplishment was his own death, which delivers humanity itself.

4.Osiris did the same things. He was born of a virgin, was considered the first true king of the people, and when he died he rose from the grave and went to heaven.

5.Osiris's son, Horus, was known as the "light of the world", "The good shepherd", and "the lamb". He was also referred to as, "The way, the truth, and the life." His symbol was a cross.

6.Mithra's birthday was celebrated on the 25th of December, his birth was witnessed by local shepherds who brought him gifts, had 12 disciples, and when he was done on earth he had a final meal before going up to heaven. On judgment day he'll return to pass judgment on the living and the dead. The good will go to heaven, and the evil will die in a giant fire. His holiday is on Sunday (he's the Sun God). His followers called themselves "brothers", and their leaders "fathers". They had baptism and a meal ritual where symbolic flesh and blood were eaten. Heaven was in the sky, and hell was below with demons and sinners.

7.Krishna had a miraculous conception that wise men were able to come to because they were guided by a star. After he was born an area ruler tried to have him found and killed. His parents were warned by a divine messenger, however, and they escaped and was met by shepherds. The boy grew up to be the mediator between God and man.

8.Buddha's mother was told by an angel that she'd give birth to a holy child destined to be a savior. As a child he teaches the priests in his temple about religion while his parents look for him. He starts his religious career at roughly 30 years of age and is said to have spoken to 12 disciples on his deathbed. One of the disciples is his favorite, and another is a traitor. He and his disciples abstain from wealth and travel around speaking in parables and metaphors. He called himself "the son of man" and was referred to as, "prophet", "master", and "Lord". He healed the sick, cured the blind and deaf, and he walked on water. One of his disciples tried to walk on water as well but sunk because his faith wasn't strong enough.

9.Apollonius of Tyana (a contemporary of Jesus) performed countless miracles (healing sick and crippled, restored sight, casted out demons, etc.) His birth was of a virgin, foretold by an angel. He knew scripture really well as a child. He was crucified, rose from the dead and appeared to his disciples to prove his power before going to heaven to sit at the right hand of the father. He was known as, "The Son of God".


Wait, lets look at Occam's Razor

1.The religious explanation is that while the other stories were very much the same as those in the Bible, they are all false. But when they occur in the Bible (despite it being much the same content), this time the stories are true. One explanation of the resemblances to the earlier myths is that Satan created them to lead people astray from the true Messiah that would come much later. So essentially, an ultra-powerful and evil being (Created by God) influenced humanity to create deceptive stories -- thousands of years before the real version -- so that people wouldn't believe the real thing when they saw it.

2.The alternative explanation is that the nature of storytelling during the period was such that central themes propagated through time. This combined with the natural tendency to have certain repeating elements in human stories, and the fact that the Bible stories came after the other ones, explains the similarities to previous myths. And since the stories of worldwide floods, virgin births, and people rising from the dead that the Bible is based on were false to begin with (which everyone agrees on) -- they are also false in the Bible. In short, the Bible is simply another iteration of the same themes that came long before it.

Its all up to you weather you decide to continue to be complete fucking morons or accept the fact that this life is all we have.... Enjoy it weather delusional or not.

As a bonus, for those that would ask me "what if your wrong?"

I've led a pretty damn good life so far, *IF* there is an after-life and a "God" and he solely bases my admitance to his good graces because I doubted or believed in him, I dont want any part of him anyway. If he is so petty and egotistical to damn me to hell simply because I doubted him, regardless of the good I did in life, he can frankly go fuck himself.

[Fernando TD21]

Your obviously missing the point... Richard Dawkins DOESNT evade the question in the first video... he simply reversed the assinine question back to the ignorant asker... You (or anyone else) can claim to believe in a certain deity... What makes you right? What proof do YOU have? What if YOUR wrong?

As far as the "second guy" you should really look him up. Christopher Hitchens was (and is) probably the greatest intillectual of our time until he passed away a few months ago.

Now, you said "People who are born in different places can have different religions and everyone can be wrong." So what makes you right? What makes anyone right? What makes Christianity right? what makes Hinduism right? what makes the belief in Thor right?

Do you even get what Im trying to say here?

Do you even acknowledge the fact that religious beliefs are completely man made?

Do you even realize that the first hand-written English language bible manuscripts wheren't even published until sometime in the 1380's?

Not only that, but did you know that just about EVERY story in the bible is based off of a previous religion that pre-dates the story of Genisis?

Look up the story of Gilgamesh which is 100's of years before the bible...

1.God decided to send a worldwide flood. This would drown men, women, children, babies and infants, as well as eliminate all of the land animals and birds.

2.God knew of one righteous man, Ut-Napishtim or Noah.

3.God ordered the hero to build a multi-story wooden ark (called a chest or box in the original Hebrew), and the hero initially complained about the assignment to build the boat
.
4.The arc would have many compartments, a single door, be sealed with pitch and would house one of every animal species.

5.A great rain covered the land with water.

6.The arc landed on a mountain in the Middle East.

7.The first two birds returned to the ark. The third bird apparently found dry land because it did not return.

8.The hero and his family left the ark, ritually killed an animal, offered it as a sacrifice.

9.The Babylonian gods seemed genuinely sorry for the genocide that they had created. The God of Noah appears to have regretted his actions as well, because he promised never to do it again.


Ohh, lets not forget Jesus!!!

1.Asklepios healed the sick, raised the dead, and was known as the savior and redeemer.

2.Hercules was born of a divine father and mortal mother and was known as the savior of the world. Prophets foretold his birth and claimed he would be a king, which started a search by a leader who wanted to kill him. He walked on water and told his mother, "Don't cry, I'm going to heaven." when he died. As he passed he said, "It is finished."

3.Dionysus was literally the "Son of God", was born of a virgin mother, and was commonly depicted riding a donkey. He healed the sick and turned water to wine. He was killed but was resurrected and became immortal. His greatest accomplishment was his own death, which delivers humanity itself.

4.Osiris did the same things. He was born of a virgin, was considered the first true king of the people, and when he died he rose from the grave and went to heaven.

5.Osiris's son, Horus, was known as the "light of the world", "The good shepherd", and "the lamb". He was also referred to as, "The way, the truth, and the life." His symbol was a cross.

6.Mithra's birthday was celebrated on the 25th of December, his birth was witnessed by local shepherds who brought him gifts, had 12 disciples, and when he was done on earth he had a final meal before going up to heaven. On judgment day he'll return to pass judgment on the living and the dead. The good will go to heaven, and the evil will die in a giant fire. His holiday is on Sunday (he's the Sun God). His followers called themselves "brothers", and their leaders "fathers". They had baptism and a meal ritual where symbolic flesh and blood were eaten. Heaven was in the sky, and hell was below with demons and sinners.

7.Krishna had a miraculous conception that wise men were able to come to because they were guided by a star. After he was born an area ruler tried to have him found and killed. His parents were warned by a divine messenger, however, and they escaped and was met by shepherds. The boy grew up to be the mediator between God and man.

8.Buddha's mother was told by an angel that she'd give birth to a holy child destined to be a savior. As a child he teaches the priests in his temple about religion while his parents look for him. He starts his religious career at roughly 30 years of age and is said to have spoken to 12 disciples on his deathbed. One of the disciples is his favorite, and another is a traitor. He and his disciples abstain from wealth and travel around speaking in parables and metaphors. He called himself "the son of man" and was referred to as, "prophet", "master", and "Lord". He healed the sick, cured the blind and deaf, and he walked on water. One of his disciples tried to walk on water as well but sunk because his faith wasn't strong enough.

9.Apollonius of Tyana (a contemporary of Jesus) performed countless miracles (healing sick and crippled, restored sight, casted out demons, etc.) His birth was of a virgin, foretold by an angel. He knew scripture really well as a child. He was crucified, rose from the dead and appeared to his disciples to prove his power before going to heaven to sit at the right hand of the father. He was known as, "The Son of God".


Wait, lets look at Occam's Razor

1.The religious explanation is that while the other stories were very much the same as those in the Bible, they are all false. But when they occur in the Bible (despite it being much the same content), this time the stories are true. One explanation of the resemblances to the earlier myths is that Satan created them to lead people astray from the true Messiah that would come much later. So essentially, an ultra-powerful and evil being (Created by God) influenced humanity to create deceptive stories -- thousands of years before the real version -- so that people wouldn't believe the real thing when they saw it.

2.The alternative explanation is that the nature of storytelling during the period was such that central themes propagated through time. This combined with the natural tendency to have certain repeating elements in human stories, and the fact that the Bible stories came after the other ones, explains the similarities to previous myths. And since the stories of worldwide floods, virgin births, and people rising from the dead that the Bible is based on were false to begin with (which everyone agrees on) -- they are also false in the Bible. In short, the Bible is simply another iteration of the same themes that came long before it.

Its all up to you weather you decide to continue to be complete fucking morons or accept the fact that this life is all we have.... Enjoy it weather delusional or not.

As a bonus, for those that would ask me "what if your wrong?"

I've led a pretty damn good life so far, *IF* there is an after-life and a "God" and he solely bases my admitance to his good graces because I doubted or believed in him, I dont want any part of him anyway. If he is so petty and egotistical to damn me to hell simply because I doubted him, regardless of the good I did in life, he can frankly go fuck himself.
:lol :lol I hope you didn't write all that for me, because if you did, you wasted your time. You act as if I'm religious just because I pointed out that there is nothing amazing in those videos.

As you said, the first guy reversed the question. Reversing a question and answering a question are completely different things. He could just have said "if I'm wrong I'll go to hell, but it's unlikely that I'm wrong. Besides everyone could be wrong". Even your answer to the question was better than his.


Now, you said "People who are born in different places can have different religions and everyone can be wrong." So what makes you right? What makes anyone right? What makes Christianity right? what makes Hinduism right? what makes the belief in Thor right?
If by right you mean what makes a belief the only correct option, then there is nothing that makes it right.

[Blake]

There is a God.

Manu be thy name.

[SpurPadre]

There is a God.

Manu be thy name.

Ironically, Manu's an atheist.

[Lakers999]

hes a muslim. :)

[capek]

I wonder if the dvr functions are confusing to God.

He'd probably like to record Hagee or Olsteen but can't figure it out

That the age old question, could God create a DVR that was so complicated even he couldn't figure out how to program it? Paradox!

[mrjap2x]

So what is Tim's religion?

[BatManu20]

I could definitely see Duncan being a Scientologist or something weird like that lol

[BatManu20]

Ironically, Manu's an atheist.

Yep. I feel like Atheism is the new cool thing. All the kids are doing it these days.

[capek]

Yep. I feel like Atheism is the new cool thing. All the kids are doing it these days.

New cool thing, or a process that has a ~500 year history as Galileo ushered in the rise of Empirical values after centuries of Christian/Platonic Idealism. Same difference. ;)

[Blake]

That the age old question, could God create a DVR that was so complicated even he couldn't figure out how to program it? Paradox!

he'd probably get so frustrated he'd want to kill himself

Oh wait

[Mr. Body]

Yep. I feel like Atheism is the new cool thing. All the kids are doing it these days.

The cool thing about Atheism is you don't actually have to do anything.

[SpurPadre]

Yep. I feel like Atheism is the new cool thing. All the kids are doing it these days.

That's why I'm an Agnostic because I'm a rebel like that.

[41times]

anyone know?

Yeah Winning is his religion
and the Gym is his church
any other questions.

[MinuteByMinuteSports]

Manu isn't an atheist. I seriously doubt it

[superjames1992]

What's Pop's religion?

I've heard that he's a polytheist that attends the Churches of Duncan, Parker, and Manu, tbh.

[Sean Cagney]

His religion is rap...