Pop and Younger Players

[Holt's Cat]

I think this is a topic worth examining. Is Pop too comfortable with experienced vets? Of course, the positive angle is older vets know how to execute and this formula has worked to the tune of 4 NBA titles. The downside is that the Spurs don't really develop their own young role players in their system and end up having to hope that they can land vets at the end of their careers with the promise of a shot at a ring. Yes, there have been exceptions (TP, Jack, and Malik). Maybe this is the summer Pop needs to become a little more amenable to taking on younger talent and molding that talent.

[Tyler_Durden]

Pop ain't got no man-love for the young'ens.

[missmyzte]

Same thing happened to the Lakers in their 3-peat years, Phil got too comfortable with vets and didn't develop any younger talent.

[loveforthegame]

He's going to have to make an adjustment for this season and give some youngsters a chance.

I think it's been painfully clear in these playoffs that they need to get younger and more athletic to keep up with the league.

You won't be able to replace guys like Horry, Finley, Stoudamire, Thomas, possibly Barry and Vaughn with all new vets.

[MaNu4Tres]

Young players aren't overthemselves yet and tend to be oblivious to the word efficiency. Pop is big on having players that understand what they can and can't do. This is something most young players fail to understand, which leads to inefficient possesions as they are clueless in the difference between a good and bad shot.

[Robinzine]

Pop ain't got no man-love for the young'ens.

Pop goes the geeers.

[timvp]

Not working in at least one young player into the rotation seems to have backfired now. Even Flip Saunders adjusted, started playing his bench and now he has players like Rodney Stuckey and Jason Maxiell who can add youthful exuberance, at the very least.

However, it's hard for me to be too critical when the same formula won in 2005 and 2007. Next year, though, it looks mandatory if for no other reason than to help keep the Big Three fresh for the playoffs. A young scoring threat has to be brought in -- whether that be Mahinmi, a young wing or a rookie backup PG.

[timmydidit]

get em while theyre young and mold them.. afterall tim duncan wasnt born at 30

[DazedAndConfused]

In the playoffs you ABSOLUTELY want veterans over young rookies. No doubt about that. As long as your core is reasonably young, you can afford to have veteran role players.

The problem is when you have veteran role players that should have retired 5 years ago.

[YellowFever]

This is why powerful teams eventually die....

If you're winning rings there is pressure on you to continue to win and therefore young players do not get to play much and therefore no development.

PJ was always like that but the last couple of years forced him to play the snot nosed younglings and they eventually developed.

Pop will start to develop rookies if and when they are no longer seriously contending.

[TDMVPDPOY]

pop os larry brown, fok them

[SenorSpur]

I've thought about this before too. Pop seems to have almost an aversion toward younger players - and it's not helped the development of this roster. It's as though no one is ever good enough or talented enough to play for him. It's a wonder he ever decided to start TP in the first place.

School's out on an exclusively old roster now. The landscape of the league dictates that you must be able to match energy and athleticism with all the up and coming teams.

The Spurs, as an organization, have enough cred and veteerans that they should be able to instill the proper ethics into a special young player. Said player would have to be the right age and maturity. Pop and R.C. have created such a glut of older players that it will be difficult to upgrade. The problem is they need help starting next season. They cannot afford to wait another 2-3 years.

I'd rather lose with players who are arrowing up than lose with a roster of exclusively older players, who are past the end of their careers.

[MaNu4Tres]

What young players have we had the chance to acquire that were better than the role players we have now?

I'm talking free agency or the draft and I don't wanna hear Josh Howard or Barbosa.

[Russ]

My only criticism would be failure to develop a young wing player. They just had bad luck with some young bigs -- Splitter and Javtokas (and Scola to some extent).

[ChumpDumper]

Most of them don't pass the audition. The ones that do are usually pretty marginal NBA talent in the first place due to our draft positions.

[Holt's Cat]

If the Spurs aren't able to find quality vets to replace guys like Finley, Horry, and Barry then where are they going to find the talent? They have 3 picks in this year's draft, the draft rights to Sanikidze, and Mahinmi as available sources for young talent for next season.

The Big 3 have a lot of basketball mileage on them from the last 5 seasons plus this one. Of course, they need to win games during the regular season. But is it really a good idea to ride any of those that much during the regular season? Yet, if you give younger players the PT they need to develop then you will have to balance that with the pressure of potential playoff seeding.

Lastly, the Big 3 + Pop have a finite amount of time left together, perhaps four more seasons. The Spurs have regenerated their supporting cast before, but that was centered on a 19 year old French point guard who fell to them in the draft and a shot in the draft's dark nether regions in '99 on an Argentine guard.

There are a couple of ways to look at this season to this point. One is that this group has played a lot of basketball over the last 3 years and it's caught up with them. A summer spent recuperating along with a few wise free agent pickups and they're back on a championship track next season. The other side is that the team as structured is not in tune with today's NBA and they need more speed and athleticism surrounding the Big 3. The easiest way for the Spurs to get that is through the draft and perhaps through picking up younger talent who for one reason or another is available (ie Jack).

The Spurs opted to keep that supporting cast together after it won a title last June. That's certainly defensible. But even if they managed to pull off a repeat this time I think the fundamental issue remains. They will need to revamp that supporting cast.

[SnakeBoy]

I guess Pop could have always tried to take time developing rookies and we might have a younger good team now, maybe.

I'm happy with the old guys and the 4 rings though.

[Anti.Hero]

Goal #1, get them over to America.

[YellowFever]

I guess Pop could have always tried to take time developing rookies and we might have a younger good team now, maybe.

I'm happy with the old guys and the 4 rings though.


There's your answer right there, Spurs fans.

The days of Celtic dynasties are over.

We had to trade away a huge part of our team in the form of the Big Whining Lard (and give up chances to possibly win the ring right now) and suck for a few years before we became a serious young contender again.

I think theSpurs should seriously think about trading Parker, Ginobili and yes, even Duncan for high draft picks and 2 or 3 solid players.

[ElNono]

I tought Darius Washington played well back then for us. I tought that if Pop had the patience and gave him some run, he could back up Tony. But Pop went for JV. And right now we don't have a backup. The thing is, I don't think Pop has the patience to go trough building another TP.
And considering that we're going to finish among the top 4 teams in the NBA, it might give him an excuse not to change a damn thing.

[ChumpDumper]

I think theSpurs should seriously think about trading Parker, Ginobili and yes, even Duncan for high draft picks and 2 or 3 solid players.Yes, because those three are not solid at all. :rolleyes

[200 miles]

i dont care if im getting ahead of myself, but since splitter's gone....

who do the Spurs need to draft at #26:

if it's center - robin lopez or roy hibbert?

if it's wingman - brandon rush or nicolas batum

if it's point guard - chalmers or westbrook or whoever else

who is it?

[ChumpDumper]

I tought Darius Washington played well back then for us. I tought that if Pop had the patience and gave him some run, he could back up Tony.He played 38 mpg for the Toros and had an assist/turnover ratio of 0.92

[YellowFever]

WHOOOOOOSHHH....

That seemed to have gone over your head.

Those players (especially Duncan) are not getting any younger.

Sure they are solid (if not fantastic) players but how long are you going to ride them?

You got to weigh how much they will help your chances to win right now to how much you can get for them in the near future.

I know Duncan means alot to you Spurs fans but would you trade him straight up right now for let's say Baron Davis, Monte Ellis and two number ones??

Most of you would say no...and most of you would be wrong.

[ChumpDumper]

WHOOOOOOSHHH....

That seemed to have gone over your head.

Those players (especially Duncan) are not getting any younger.

Sure they are solid (if not fantastic) players but how long are you going to ride them?

You got to weigh how much they will help your chances to win right now to how much you can get for them in the near future.There is no future after Duncan.


I know Duncan means alot to you Spurs fans but would you trade him straight up right now for let's say Baron Davis, Monte Ellis and two number ones??God no. Holy shit that is a horrible deal.


Most of you would say no...and most of you would be wrong.We want the Spurs to win. Not Golden State. We're funny that way.

[Holt's Cat]

Why are the Spurs trading their 26 year old point guard who is certainly in the top 5 at his position and has a plethora of NBA championship experience? Not to mention their 32 year old big who is one of the greatest bigmen to ever play the game? Baron Davis + Monta Ellis?

:shakeshead

[YellowFever]

There is no future after Duncan.

God no. Holy shit that is a horrible deal.

We want the Spurs to win. Not Golden State. We're funny that way.


Reality check.

The Spurs probably won't win it this year and probably won't win it in the near future, not with the up and coming teams in the West.

Shaq HAD to go. But we proably wouldn't have won any more even if we kept that team together.

Bottom line is, yes, Duncan put you guys on the map and I like your loyalty to him but Baron Davis and Ellis plus 2 number ones means you guys get an upgrade on your PG position and can deal TP and have lots of room to play with the draft picks to get at least 3 or four good players and seriously compete for the next 7 or 8 years again...if not longer.

[Holt's Cat]

So either keep the top 3 players of a team that made it at least to the conference finals this year after winning a championship last season and revamp the supporting cast around them or deal a Tim Duncan with 4 seasons left for Baron Davis and Monta Ellis?

Sure, Laker fans would love to see that trade.

[ChumpDumper]

Reality check.

The Spurs probably won't win it this year and probably won't win it in the near future, not with the up and coming teams in the West.Depends on whom is picked up in the meantime.


Shaq HAD to go. But we proably wouldn't have won any more even if we kept that team together.Shaq is not Duncan.


Bottom line is, yes, Duncan put you guys on the map and I like your loyalty to him but Baron Davis and Ellis plus 2 number ones means you guys get an upgrade on your PG position and can deal TP and have lots of room to play with the draft picks to get at least 3 or four good players and seriously compete for the next 7 or 8 years again...if not longer.OMFG. We trade for a gimp who will be 30 next year and duplicate one of our best positions and are supposed to replace the best PF in NBA history with draft picks which will be the same as if we had kept Duncan because Duncan will lead the Warriors to one of the best records in the league for three or four years.


Are you Chris Wallace?

[DazedAndConfused]

You probably don't want to break up your core that is relatively young and has won 3 championships together.

But everyone else can be jettisoned in a NY minute. Letting go of Scola and Udrih could be the moves that ultimately led to the Spur's demise.

[YellowFever]

So either keep the top 3 players of a team that made it at least to the conference finals this year after winning a championship last season and revamp the supporting cast around them or deal a Tim Duncan with 4 seasons left for Baron Davis and Monta Ellis?

Sure, Laker fans would love to see that trade.


No.

As a Laker fan, I would love for the Spurs to keep on their current path and try to find peripheral players to complement the Three Stars you have.

That's because I know it won't be enough.

As I said before...




You got to weigh how much they will help your chances to win right now to how much you can get for them in the near future.


Duncan is 32.

It's not inconcievable that this or next year might be his final "impact" year.

All I'm saying is that in the near future (very near..closer than you think) Bynum, Chandler, Gasol or any of the decent big men in this league will start to play rings around him. Do you think anybody will offer two pretty decent player plus any number 1's for him then?

See Michael Finley.

3 years ago people would have traded a Lamar Odom for him then.

Would they do so now?

[ChumpDumper]

lakerfan just compared Tim Duncan to Michael Finley.

This hijack is at an end.

[YellowFever]

Depends on whom is picked up in the meantime.



You guys got tired old men in your bench now.
You have to develop players and that is not gonna happen as long as you guys are good enough to compete but not good enough to win it all.



Shaq is not Duncan.


I hate the Big Lard and yes I hated his ass even when he was a Laker.
But he did get us three rings and can you say that Duncan in his prime is/was better than Shaq in his prime?

You probably could but I bet 90 % of the talking heads on TV would disagree with you.



OMFG. We trade for a gimp who will be 30 next year and duplicate one of our best positions and are supposed to replace the best PF in NBA history with draft picks which will be the same as if we had kept Duncan because Duncan will lead the Warriors to one of the best records in the league for three or four years.


It's not gimp that is the main attraction in that trade.

It's the 2 number ones.
(yeah this trade is purely hypothetical and made up but I decided to run with it)

Do you honestly think that team minus Davis and Ellis but with Duncan will seriously contend in that league?

Hmm....



Are you Chris Wallace?


Ummm....no...

But I thought this way it would be kinda fun for the mental masturbation rather than the usual Spur Forum's "fuck you faker fans" take.

[SnakeBoy]

Trading away TP, Manu, Duncan...wishfull thinking for a lakers fan.

Duncan will retire in a Spurs jersey just like David. The way it should be. Then we can hope for a little lottery luck one more time. We'll get to talk about three-peats too.

[YellowFever]

lakerfan just compared Tim Duncan to Michael Finley.

This hijack is at an end.

Oh sure, just delude yourself into thinking that I actually compared Fin to Duncan.

Finley was used as an example.

This conversation is apparantly at an end.

Keep deluding yourself into thinking you'll ride Duncan to another 4 glorious rings in the near future.

[ChumpDumper]

You guys got tired old men in your bench now.Not for long. If you don't know the Spurs' history of roster turnover, kindly STFU.




I hate the Big Lard and yes I hated his ass even when he was a Laker.
But he did get us three rings and can you say that Duncan in his prime is/was better than Shaq in his prime?Duncan has gotten us four rings, and he's still quite good.


You probably could but I bet 90 % of the talking heads on TV would disagree with you.Now we're talking about the opinion of TV talking heads? Just go to some board that cares about something like that. It ain't here.




It's not gimp that is the main attraction in that trade.

It's the 2 number ones.:lol

Those number ones can't be consecutive and will not be good, especially after Duncan plays for them.


Do you honestly think that team minus Davis and Ellis but with Duncan will seriously contend in that league?Oh hell yes. You got Duncan + Jack.


Ummm....no...I have seen no evidence to refute this -- but you probably don't even know who he is.


But I thought this way it would be kinda fun for the mental masturbation rather than the usual Spur Forum's "fuck you faker fans" take.Keep your masturbation to yourself.

[ChumpDumper]

Oh sure, just delude yourself into thinking that I actually compared Fin to Duncan.You did. Now you realize how stupid you are and are backing off it.


Keep deluding yourself into thinking you'll ride Duncan to another 4 glorious rings in the near future.Just like Phoenix and Dallas rode Finley to all theirs :lmao


This conversation is apparantly at an end.Oh hell yes.

[Man of Steel]

I do agree we need some youth to come off the bench.

[TDMVPDPOY]

i trade ginoboli for jax + elis in a heartbeat

[bigdog]

this thread is over.

[roycrikside]

Not working in at least one young player into the rotation seems to have backfired now. Even Flip Saunders adjusted, started playing his bench and now he has players like Rodney Stuckey and Jason Maxiell who can add youthful exuberance, at the very least.

However, it's hard for me to be too critical when the same formula won in 2005 and 2007. Next year, though, it looks mandatory if for no other reason than to help keep the Big Three fresh for the playoffs. A young scoring threat has to be brought in -- whether that be Mahinmi, a young wing or a rookie backup PG.

Or all three. They should go after Kelenna Azuibuike of the Warriors. He's young, extremely athletic, coachable, a great rebounder, and a good shooter. He'd be the perfect starting shooting guard for us to replace Fin.

If the Spurs get eliminated this year it'll be because their youngest wing player was Manu, at an old 30.

2005 and 2007 were different. 2005 Manu and Timmy were younger, Horry could still play and make shots and the rotation was set. In 2007 we basically got a gift championship, it was the easiest road ever except for round 2 and the Suns are soft. All three teams we've played thus far are better than anyone we played last year.

[timaios]

Duncan is 32.

It's not inconcievable that this or next year might be his final "impact" year.

Michael Jordan was 35 when he won his 6th title !

[Capt Bringdown]

Letting go of Scola and Udrih could be the moves that ultimately led to the Spur's demise.

:tu
It's a broken record that nobody wants to hear, but you're absolutely correct.

Scola would have been precisely what the doctor ordered this season and in this series especially.

Certainly better than brickmeister Horry and lead-footed Kurt Thomas.

How and why we let him slip through our fingertips so that we could sign Matt Fucking Bonner is one of those stories that will echo down thru the ages.

FO essentially pissed away the title in the offseason IMO. Lack of imagination, arrogance and complacency were the culprits I believe.

[Harry Callahan]

What young players have we had the chance to acquire that were better than the role players we have now?

I'm talking free agency or the draft and I don't wanna hear Josh Howard or Barbosa.

Yeah, Josh Howard is an idiot who has issues in the head and Barbosa only plays well when the pressure is off.

When your highest draft pick in the last ten years is the 24th or 25th pick, you don't get the opportunity to regularly infuse youth. The Spurs have actually done a pretty good job with the draft picks they have had. In order to get value (talent) on these low picks, they have drafted foreign players who were not on everybody's list.

This practice has its downside as we have seen with the Splitter and Scola situations. The Spurs have decided they can wait on players who they think have more talent than the immediately available players at the end of the 1st round. I think that policy will change a bit going forward.

[ElNono]

I know Duncan means alot to you Spurs fans but would you trade him straight up right now for let's say Baron Davis, Monte Ellis and two number ones??

Who do you think we are? The Dallas Mavericks? Hell no...

[Harry Callahan]

All these Laker fans think they are on a course to another threepeat or fourpeat. Not gonna happen. Kobe is great, but wing players tend to break down when they get into their 30s (see Manu, who is only a year older than Kobe with A LOT less miles on his odometer).

Bynum has the potential to be a star, but he has already had a significant injury to his knee requiring a couple of surgeries. Can he stay healthy?

Gasol and Odum are good, but they have been somewhat up and down in the playoffs. Gasol seems to be soft as tissue paper too, but that is not news.

The Lakers will go as far as Kobe can take them in the next few years. I don't see them being as dominant was they were when Kobe and Shaq were together. Very good yes, not dominant.

I think Boston or Detroit will be able to turn the Lakers into the Kobe show and limit the other guys. This is assuming the Spurs don't win three games in a row, of course. Ginobili's leg issues and the geezer bench don't breed a lot of confidence in that happening.

[SenorSpur]

When your highest draft pick in the last ten years is the 24th or 25th pick, you don't get the opportunity to regularly infuse youth.

Bullshit! Teams like the Pistons, Rockets and Fakers seem to get the most of their draft positions. So I wouldn't say you're NOT going to find talent at the end of the first round. Especially with the influx of high school, early-entry and Euro players that have been flooding the drafts in recent years.


The Spurs have actually done a pretty good job with the draft picks they have had. In order to get value (talent) on these low picks, they have drafted foreign players who were not on everybody's list.

Where have they done a good job in managing their draft picks? Besides Ian, What do they have to show for it? Are you referring to Scola, Beno? Where are the results?


This practice has its downside as we have seen with the Splitter and Scola situations. The Spurs have decided they can wait on players who they think have more talent than the immediately available players at the end of the 1st round. I think that policy will change a bit going forward.

When was the last time the Spurs drafted and developed a domestic player? I'm sure the organization prefers the "draft-n-stash" philosophy so they can save money during the first few years of player development, but don't look now because the cupboard is just about bare. Total dependence on that philosophy was short-sighted to begin with. The Scola and Splitter fiascos bear this out. That said, that philosophy ABSOLUTELY has to change.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

If you want an example you have Udoka - he's a young players that Pop gave a lot of room to make mistakes and learn. He has had some very good games but it's more the bad than the good. He often makes huge mistakes with bad fouls for example. He has a problem with dunking on the open and allows players to block his shots. His defense isn't solid enough against smaller shooting guards and he was supposed to be Bowen's protege.

Bonner on the other hand should deserve more time than what he gets now. He has made mistakes before and has been in pop's doghouse longer than anyone else but he's a solid player, can bang people and has an accurate 3 pt shot. But, he's young.

[Holt's Cat]

If you want an example you have Udoka - he's a young players that Pop gave a lot of room to make mistakes and learn. He has had some very good games but it's more the bad than the good. He often makes huge mistakes with bad fouls for example. He has a problem with dunking on the open and allows players to block his shots. His defense isn't solid enough against smaller shooting guards and he was supposed to be Bowen's protege.

Bonner on the other hand should deserve more time than what he gets now. He has made mistakes before and has been in pop's doghouse longer than anyone else but he's a solid player, can bang people and has an accurate 3 pt shot. But, he's young.

Udoka is a youngster at the precocious age of 57.

[sedale threatt]

phil had a huge rep for hating younger players. apparently he got over it and now we're dealing with turiaf, sasha, farmar, and walton playing like seasoned warriors and messing with our dynasty.

[Extra Stout]

Laker Fan... trading Duncan is not the same thing as trading Shaq, because you can't build a team around Tony Parker the way you can around Kobe Bryant. There's nothing the Spurs can do but keep on with the Big 3 and hope some low-percentage signings, trades, and draft picks pan out. They've been doing that for the past couple of years, which most moves turning to crap in their hands (Francisco Elson, Jackie Butler, Matt Bonner, etc.). In the meantime, they somehow won a fourth title anyway.

[urunobili]

You did. Now you realize how stupid you are and are backing off it.

Just like Phoenix and Dallas rode Finley to all theirs :lmao

Oh hell yes.

Chump any remote possibility that Darius comes back with the Spurs? :rolleyes

[Holt's Cat]

Laker Fan... trading Duncan is not the same thing as trading Shaq, because you can't build a team around Tony Parker the way you can around Kobe Bryant. There's nothing the Spurs can do but keep on with the Big 3 and hope some low-percentage signings, trades, and draft picks pan out. They've been doing that for the past couple of years, which most moves turning to crap in their hands (Francisco Elson, Jackie Butler, Matt Bonner, etc.). In the meantime, they somehow won a fourth title anyway.

Not to mention that Duncan's game isn't built on athleticism, unlike Shaq's. A 35 year old Duncan will still be playing at a high level. But the Spurs will definitely have to upgrade the athleticism and youth of the supporting cast, after spending the last few years largely ignoring this and throwing away what younger talent they had for nothing.

[YODA]

Come on people. Pop has used free agents for years and has done it better then anyone. Pop learned long ago its easier to use veterans then bring in rookies.He bascially lets someone else break them into league, then utilizes them or goes after established veterans like horry, willis, and Fin to name a few.
Look at list of names who have come here in last 9 years.This is just off the top of my head and there are a ton more Im sure.
Finley
Horry
Jaren Jackson
Stpehen Jackson
Hedo
Nazi
Willis
Barry
Elson
Kersey
Anderson
Rose
Perdue

[Extra Stout]

Not to mention that Duncan's game isn't built on athleticism, unlike Shaq's. A 35 year old Duncan will still be playing at a high level. But the Spurs will definitely have to upgrade the athleticism and youth of the supporting cast, after spending the last few years largely ignoring this and throwing away what younger talent they had for nothing.
A 32-year-old Duncan is already obviously in decline. I think your assertion about his playing at a high level at 35 is wishful thinking. He's apparently not Kareem Abdul-Jabbar or Hakeem Olajuwon after all in terms of longevity. The end is closer than you want to believe.

The team cannot simply snap its fingers this summer and summon athletic young talent than can contribute. They needed to be laying the groundwork for that already. For years people fretted about Bruce Bowen aging. The solution is Ime Udoka. He's not good enough. For years people fretted about the aging and depleted frontcourt. The Spurs fumbled away Luis Scola and miscalculated on Tiago Splitter. They convinced themselves that Jackie Butler was not as mentally retarded as he appeared to be. They guessed that they could do something with Francisco Elson. They imagined that Matt Bonner was the heir to Big Shot Rob, rather than an unathletic redheaded scrub who could shoot a little. Now it's Ian Mahinmi or nothing.

While the roster concerns that had been pending for years developed into crises, now new holes have appeared. The Spurs' best option for a change of pace at shooting guard is a 36-year-old coming off two calf tears. Oh, he also is the best option to back up Tony Parker now.

They can't just suddenly decide to change course this summer and think that it's all going to get better. The failures of the past few years are coming home to roost as, amidst watching the fetid failures of the nursing home brigade take their toll on the Big 3, we come quickly to an offseason where the cupboard of developing talent is all but bare and there's not much hope Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili will have much more help next season than they did in this one. And, that lack of help is now noticeably shortening Duncan's and Ginobili's primes.

The Spurs need to think of Game 5 tonight in light of the likelihood that this is their last good chance to win another championship.

[ElNono]

A 32-year-old Duncan is already obviously in decline.

The hell? Putting up 20/20 in the WCF is declining? Shit, no other PF/C in the 4 teams that are left playing are putting those numbers consistently.
If there's something POSITIVE about this season, is to see that TD still can dominate in the playoffs.

[Extra Stout]

The hell? Putting up 20/20 in the WCF is declining? Shit, no other PF/C in the 4 teams that are left playing are putting those numbers consistently.
If there's something POSITIVE about this season, is to see that TD still can dominate in the playoffs.
He's not dominating. He shot 42% against the Hornets. Lest anyone think that Tyson Chandler is an incredibly gifted defender, he's followed that up with 44% shooting. 44%? Against Pau Gasol? It's very nice that he can grab rebounds every other game against tough, brawny big men like Gasol and Vlad Radmanovic, but his offensive game is a tiny fraction of what it used to be, and he regularly runs out of gas in the fourth quarter now.

Pointing out the obvious decline in his play is not the same thing as saying he sucks now. Clearly he doesn't suck; he's just not the dominant player he used to be and who he needs to be for the Spurs to win titles. You will hear "he sucks now" so that you can have a straw man to argue against, because you don't want to deal with the sound of that window slamming shut.

[sedale threatt]

i wouldn't be bragging about pop's genius in snagging finley and horry right about now.

[Extra Stout]

i wouldn't be bragging about pop's genius in snagging finley and horry right about now.
Game 5 of the 2005 Finals vindicated the Horry signing for all eternity.

[T Park]

i wouldn't be bragging about pop's genius in snagging finley and horry right about now.

Those signings won 2 rings.

Yeah those were stupid.

[Holt's Cat]

A 32-year-old Duncan is already obviously in decline. I think your assertion about his playing at a high level at 35 is wishful thinking. He's apparently not Kareem Abdul-Jabbar or Hakeem Olajuwon after all in terms of longevity. The end is closer than you want to believe.

The team cannot simply snap its fingers this summer and summon athletic young talent than can contribute. They needed to be laying the groundwork for that already. For years people fretted about Bruce Bowen aging. The solution is Ime Udoka. He's not good enough. For years people fretted about the aging and depleted frontcourt. The Spurs fumbled away Luis Scola and miscalculated on Tiago Splitter. They convinced themselves that Jackie Butler was not as mentally retarded as he appeared to be. They guessed that they could do something with Francisco Elson. They imagined that Matt Bonner was the heir to Big Shot Rob, rather than an unathletic redheaded scrub who could shoot a little. Now it's Ian Mahinmi or nothing.

While the roster concerns that had been pending for years developed into crises, now new holes have appeared. The Spurs' best option for a change of pace at shooting guard is a 36-year-old coming off two calf tears. Oh, he also is the best option to back up Tony Parker now.

They can't just suddenly decide to change course this summer and think that it's all going to get better. The failures of the past few years are coming home to roost as, amidst watching the fetid failures of the nursing home brigade take their toll on the Big 3, we come quickly to an offseason where the cupboard of developing talent is all but bare and there's not much hope Duncan, Parker, and Ginobili will have much more help next season than they did in this one. And, that lack of help is now noticeably shortening Duncan's and Ginobili's primes.

The Spurs need to think of Game 5 tonight in light of the likelihood that this is their last good chance to win another championship.


Duncan's had problems in his career with long, athletic defenders. Plus it was the Hornets' team defense in that series more than anything, and a stomach virus or whatever.

Yes, the supporting cast is the real issue. I'm still not sure what RC was thinking with Scola, other than he was pressed into that move for financial considerations.

The Spurs have a fair amount of contracts coming off the books this summer. So the Lux Tax monster shouldn't be an issue now. We will see if they will put to use their cap exceptions and their picks.

It's a bit early to write these Spurs off. The hard problem of finding three championship level stars to build the squad around has been solved. I think Pop and RC have focused a bit too much on surrounding those 3 with experienced vets. But they've been forced to bring in young talent and develop it before. That looks like what will happen now.

[Southwest Texas Fan]

I tought Darius Washington played well back then for us. I tought that if Pop had the patience and gave him some run, he could back up Tony. But Pop went for JV. And right now we don't have a backup. The thing is, I don't think Pop has the patience to go trough building another TP.
And considering that we're going to finish among the top 4 teams in the NBA, it might give him an excuse not to change a damn thing.

I think Pop has more patience today than he had a couple seasons ago.

[T Park]

It's a bit early to write these Spurs off. The hard problem of finding three championship level stars to build the squad around has been solved. I think Pop and RC have focused a bit too much on surrounding those 3 with experienced vets. But they've been forced to bring in young talent and develop it before. That looks like what will happen now.

I think 2003 and 05 proved Pop will play younger players when given to him and if they play defense. I mean Stephen Jackson and Speedy Claxton are proof positive putting them over guys like Kerr and Steve Smith, that Pop will go with the youngsters.

[EVAY]

Pop's reliance on older players recently is a function of several items: 1) Holt's pocketbook, 2) Pop's sentiment for folks who have "paid their dues" and the sense of "owing" something to guys who helped you win a championship the year before are all part of this, and 3) the fact that the Spurs never repeated (they changed rosters at least a little bit in each of the years following the championships before, and Pop the FO got hit for "breaking up a winning team" each time.

1. Does anyone remember that the Spurs almost lost Robinson because we didn't want to pay him ( for his last contract)? That Sean Luck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_Lu ck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_ had to agree to restructure his last years of his contract to free up money for other players before he left? That Duncan had to agree to take less money in order to get enough money to have a chance at resigning Ginobili when he comes up? That Michael Finley is essentially being paid by Cuban, and that he and other "older players" have been willing to play for less than they could get elsewhere in order to have a shot at a championship?

I don't blame Holt for being a sound businessman. It is a reality, though, that the Spurs ownership group ( it is not just Holt and it includes some folks with deeper pockets than Holt, even) is not willing to go over the salary cap, and when you have any "big three" ( and without three you really won't contend for a championship anymore), there is simply little to none left over for others.

2. Pop's sentimentality comes into play for guys who have "come up the hard way". I think it reminds him of him being told that he wasn't quite good enough for the olympic team in his day. Whatever the reason, he really likes to take guys who have been elsewhere and are hungry enough to try overcome a lack of natural talent with hard work and savvy. That often translates into older players near the end of their careers. Remember that Duncan came in a rookie, but as the first draft pick. Pop had to be forced to
take Parker by his assistant coaches, and only after several tryouts...And Ginobili was a European superstar before he ever got here. (Even with all of this, Pop still defers to Finley's fragile psyche over Ginobili).

3. The Spurs have never repeated a Championship, and each time Pop and the FO have been accused of not staying with a winning formula (i.e., keeping virtually the same team together). So this year, even if we lose, it won't be because we didn't keep the group together.

3. In the last

[Ghost Writer]

I think this is a topic worth examining. Is Pop too comfortable with experienced vets? Of course, the positive angle is older vets know how to execute and this formula has worked to the tune of 4 NBA titles. The downside is that the Spurs don't really develop their own young role players in their system and end up having to hope that they can land vets at the end of their careers with the promise of a shot at a ring. Yes, there have been exceptions (TP, Jack, and Malik). Maybe this is the summer Pop needs to become a little more amenable to taking on younger talent and molding that talent.
It's nice to see that my ol' pal and I can see eye-to-eye on each other's viewpoints after all these years.

[ChumpDumper]

Which young player did Pop fail to develop?

Beno?

I think there were some that weren't kept of course, but for the most part the young guys never made the team in the first place. The ones that did? White, Washington -- longshots who aren't in the league anymore. It happens.

[T Park]

I don't know of any young guys the Spurs have given up on in the past couple years that are worth a crap.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

When I see JV and the mighty mouse I wonder what the heck happened with Antonio Daniels.

[Ghost Writer]

I don't know if I agree with developing young talent when you've got Duncan, Manu and Parker together to contend now, but I do have a problem with never signing or trading for younger talent that can produce.

The only guys we sign to enter the rotation are over 30.

[Mr. Body]

Why Mahinmi didn't get any NBA time in the middle and later in the season, if only to soak up minutes and get real experience, is freaking beyond me. Even if Washington wasn't great, was it not a better idea to keep him than sign Suckamire?

[loveforthegame]

How are the rookies going to learn if they don't get some minutes and learn from mistakes?

It's fine if Pop wants to stick with vets in the playoffs but young guys need some burn in the regular season to get better.

[ChumpDumper]

Washington is quite overrated on this board. I would have brought up Langford if anything, and that isn't saying a whole lot.

[ChumpDumper]

How are the rookies going to learn if they don't get some minutes and learn from mistakes?

It's fine if Pop wants to stick with vets in the playoffs but young guys need some burn in the regular season to get better.Which young guys?

Ian? Hard to tell if he would last long enough in an NBA game this season to make a difference in his development.

[T Park]

Washington is quite overrated on this board. I would have brought up Langford if anything, and that isn't saying a whole lot.

People are treating Darius Washington as if hes the next John Stockton for godsake.

[Mr. Body]

Washington >>> Stoudamire

That's all I was saying.

[ChumpDumper]

Kevin Kruger >>> Washington

It was embarrassing.

I guess we could have called up Kruger.

[T Park]

Washington >>> Stoudamire

That's all I was saying.


Vaughn >>>> Washington


Theres your answer dimwit.

[Mr. Body]

Anybody, my point was. Pop has this arrogance about older players. Mahinmi was more to the the issue: why didn't he get more time? How could forgoing five games in the NBDL for spot minutes in the NBA hurt his development?

[loveforthegame]

Which young guys?

Ian? Hard to tell if he would last long enough in an NBA game this season to make a difference in his development.

I don't have specific names really but other teams get a 2nd rounder and give them a chance at least. I know 2nd rounders do not pan out very often but it happens. Or you luck out and find someone who was undrafted and makes a difference on a team. I'd just like to see them draft someone in the 1st round that won't be stuck overseas for years or be stuck to the bench simply because he's a rookie.

I'd like to see them use their draft picks on guys who have a chance to play this year. I'd rather they be wasted on guys not panning out then be stashed overseas with little to no chance of ever playing here.

Unfortunately the Spurs will likely have to use their two 2nd rounders this year to unload Bonner.

[ElNono]

Pop does not play rookies. He would rather use them as trade bait for more veterans.
This is just the way it is, and it's going to be until around 2011-12 when TD retires and Pop does too.

Deal with it.

[Mr. Body]

Vaughn >>>> Washington


Theres your answer dimwit.

Why so antagonistic? Why so mopey, my beloved imbecile? Clearly we were talking about third string point guards.

[ChumpDumper]

I don't have specific names really but other teams get a 2nd rounder and give them a chance at least. I know 2nd rounders do not pan out very often but it happens. Or you luck out and find someone who was undrafted and makes a difference on a team. I'd just like to see them draft someone in the 1st round that won't be stuck overseas for years or be stuck to the bench simply because he's a rookie.

I'd like to see them use their draft picks on guys who have a chance to play this year. I'd rather they be wasted on guys not panning out then be stashed overseas with little to no chance of ever playing here.

Unfortunately the Spurs will likely have to use their two 2nd rounders this year to unload Bonner.I think they'll keep Bonner.

They've given chances to the kind of players you are talking about the past two years. Turns out they just weren't that good and aren't in the league anymore.

[T Park]

Why so antagonistic? Why so mopey, my beloved imbecile? Clearly we were talking about third string point guards.

"Why would Holt accept a buyout? Williams would have to accept less money than he is owed!!!"

[T Park]

Pop does not play rookies. He would rather use them as trade bait for more veterans.
This is just the way it is, and it's going to be until around 2011-12 when TD retires and Pop does too.

Deal with it.

Yeah that 2004 draft pick didn't play at all.

What? Udrih was the main backup?

Ooops......

Parker was a rookie in 2001 and became the starter.

So once again.....

[Ghost Writer]

I think we can all agree that the best Spurs teams were the ones that successfully mixed savvy veterans along with athletic young players around the big stars.

When we've lost, the rosters were glaringly old.

[ElNono]

Yeah that 2004 draft pick didn't play at all.

What? Udrih was the main backup?

Ooops......

Parker was a rookie in 2001 and became the starter.

So once again.....

Two players developed in a 7 year time span. You just made my point.

[ElNono]

I think we can all agree that the best Spurs teams were the ones that successfully mixed savvy veterans along with athletic young players around the big stars.

When we've lost, the rosters were glaringly old.

Really? What was last year's team? Who was the athletic young player, other than Tony?

[TDMVPDPOY]

spurs FO hasnt done much with the development of its young players...

and yes those players are a joke.

Ian mahinmi i am very disappointed in his development seriously

look at dwight howard who had a skinny frame when he was drafted, spent the summer bulking up to 260+ pure muscle...dude uses his athleticism to his advantage and the big body.

bynum is another example, who spent time with KAJ and improved his low post game....

[Mr. Body]

"Why would Holt accept a buyout? Williams would have to accept less money than he is owed!!!"

Dude, go work for Fox News. You must have a databank of the most niggling absurd details. Either that or you use too many of your meager supply of braincells memorizing this stuff. I can imagine you in your parents' basement going over your carefully ledgered quotes. 'Aha! Got him! Where's that one about SpursFanInDallas? Here it is! He once said Fabrico instead of Fabricio! HAW HAW!'

Sides, what does this have to do with you thinking Stoudamire and Washington were second string point guards on this team? Do you truly believe I'll bring that up in two years to tell you how stupid you are? Nah, not when it's so demonstrable in your every statement.

[Kill_Bill_Pana]

Chump any remote possibility that Darius comes back with the Spurs? :rolleyes

He is talent player and has good potentials. But base on how he perform this year in Greek league he is VERY far from be ready for NBA level. He needs few years of learn game in Europe.

[urunobili]

He is talent player and has good potentials. But base on how he perform this year in Greek league he is VERY far from be ready for NBA level. He needs few years of learn game in Europe.

thanks Chump :tu

[ChumpDumper]

:lol

I said in the other thread I don't see his coming back. I guess there is a remote possibility, but I think he might have stayed in Austin had he thought there was a good chance of his being called up by the Spurs again after being waived. Of course the money was better in Greece too, so my answer can't be definitive.

[leemajors]

spurs FO hasnt done much with the development of its young players...

and yes those players are a joke.

Ian mahinmi i am very disappointed in his development seriously

look at dwight howard who had a skinny frame when he was drafted, spent the summer bulking up to 260+ pure muscle...dude uses his athleticism to his advantage and the big body.

bynum is another example, who spent time with KAJ and improved his low post game....
you're talking about high draft/lottery picks. I guess it's good you're still not hyping beno as better than TP though.

[Ghost Writer]

Really? What was last year's team? Who was the athletic young player, other than Tony?
The Spurs were a year younger.

The Spurs also weren't in any Game 7s or playing every other day in the WCFs.

[1Parker1]

Really? What was last year's team? Who was the athletic young player, other than Tony?


Last year was arguably the Spurs easiest route to the Finals.

You think if the this year's Spurs team had to go through; Nuggets, Suns, Jazz, and Cavs they couldn't do it?

The rest of the league got about 10 times better last offseason, while the Spurs gambled with what they had, adding a few pieces here or there that haven't really been useful in this series.

[Ghost Writer]

Thank you, 1Parker1.

Your posts demonstrate an objective thought process.

[T Park]

Last year was arguably the Spurs easiest route to the Finals.

You think if the this year's Spurs team had to go through; Nuggets, Suns, Jazz, and Cavs they couldn't do it?

The rest of the league got about 10 times better last offseason, while the Spurs gambled with what they had, adding a few pieces here or there that haven't really been useful in this series.

Ehhh. I don't TOTALLY 100% agree with the Suns in the second round was easy, but, agree to disagree.

[SpurOutofTownFan]

Newsflash: for those who don't get it yet - the big 3 aren't going to be traded for anything. isn't going to happen.