Pakistans CIA hit on Karzai

[clambake]

Afghanistan blames Pakistan in Karzai attack
By RAHIM FAIEZ – 1 hour ago

KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) — An Afghan official on Wednesday accused Pakistan's premier spy agency of organizing a recent assassination attempt on Afghan President Hamid Karzai, the most serious in a string of allegations against Pakistan.

The charge bodes ill for American efforts to get Pakistan's new government to work with Karzai's embattled administration to counter Islamic militants on their common border.

Karzai escaped unharmed when assailants fired guns and mortars toward the president, senior officials and foreign diplomats during a military parade in downtown Kabul on April 27. Three Afghans were killed.

Since then, Karzai has ramped up his criticism of Pakistan, whom Afghan officials have long suspected of secretly aiding the insurgents. Karzai even threatened to send troops into Pakistan to eliminate Taliban leaders this month.

Afghan intelligence chief Amrullah Saleh alleged last month that suspects involved in the attempt on Karzai had exchanged cell phone text messages with people in Pakistan's lawless tribal regions and the city of Peshawar.

Presidential spokesman Humayun Hamidzada said Tuesday that "the hand of one foreign intelligence agency was clearly involved."

Saleh's spokesman, Saeed Ansari, went further Wednesday, claiming Afghan intelligence could prove Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence agency, or ISI, was involved.

"The evidence and documents as well as the confessions of people arrested by the intelligence service shows that the main organizer of the terrorist acts during the 16th anniversary of the mujahedeen victory was the intelligence service of Pakistan and its allies," Ansari said.

Pressed at a news conference for details, Ansari said one piece of evidence was a secret code used during phone conversations between militants. He released a list of phone numbers prefixed with Pakistan's country code, 92, which he said they had used.

However, he said couldn't reveal all the reasons the Afghan agency was certain the ISI was involved because it could compromise its operations.

"We are sure and confident" of an ISI connection, he said.

Ansari also said that militants involved in a deadly attack on Kabul's Serena Hotel in January had links with the ISI.

A spokesman for the Pakistan army, which controls the ISI, was not immediately available for comment. The Foreign Ministry said it would only respond after viewing a transcript of Ansari's remarks.

Pakistani leaders acknowledge that Taliban and al-Qaida militants find refuge in its lawless tribal belt. However, they angrily reject suggestions that its security agencies are colluding with militants.

"Pakistan will not allow its territory to be used against other countries, especially Afghanistan," Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani said Wednesday.

But in a message to both Afghanistan and the United States, he added: "Under no circumstances will foreign troops be allowed to operate inside Pakistan."

Cross-border relations are already strained in the wake of a U.S. airstrike which Pakistan says killed 11 of its soldiers last month.

The top American commander in Afghanistan said Tuesday that one-star generals from the U.S., Pakistan and Afghanistan this week began a joint investigation of the incident.

Pakistani officials complain that they being unfairly blamed for the failure of the Karzai government to stabilize Afghanistan, despite billions of dollars in international aid and the presence of 60,000 foreign troops.

In the latest fighting, the U.S.-led coalition said Afghan police called for help Tuesday night when insurgents armed with rockets and guns attacked government offices in the Sarobi and Gomal districts of Paktika province.

"When coalition air support arrived, the 22 militants who attacked the district centers were positively identified and killed," a coalition statement said.

Ghamai Khan Mohammadyar, spokesman for the provincial governor, said police counted the bodies of 22 "enemy fighters" on the battlefield. He said no Afghan forces were killed and claimed that the surviving militants had fled toward the Pakistani border.

The coalition said one of its troops died and three others were wounded when a bomb hit a vehicle on a combat operation in Helmand province.

One NATO soldier also died in Helmand when an explosion hit a patrol in Nahri Sarraj district on Tuesday, the alliance said.

More than 2,000 people have died in insurgency-related violence this year, according to an Associated Press tally.

Many are militants slaughtered by U.S. warplanes responding to skirmishes on the ground. A total of 111 foreign troops have also died, including 36 this month — a faster monthly pace of attrition than in Iraq.

Associated Press writers Stephen Graham and Amir Shah in Kabul and Matthew Pennington in Islamabad contributed to this report.
Hosted by Copyright © 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.

this alliance with pakistan................i smell a rat.

[ElNono]

I just never understood this...

1) It's common knowledge Pakistan has been a Taliban refugee for a long time now. They say they're not, they received $4 billion in aid for 3 years after 9/11, and you still read how Taliban cross the border with impunity.
2) They're the worst example of a democracy in the Middle East. Musharraf named himself president in 2001. And I don't even have to talk about Bhutto.
3) They're always having border conflicts with India, to the point that you no longer wonder if they're going to use the nuke they have, but how long until they use it.

Why are we allied with these people again?

[clambake]

I just never understood this...

1) It's common knowledge Pakistan has been a Taliban refugee for a long time now. They say they're not, they received $4 billion in aid for 3 years after 9/11, and you still read how Taliban cross the border with impunity.
2) They're the worst example of a democracy in the Middle East. Musharraf named himself president in 2001. And I don't even have to talk about Bhutto.
3) They're always having border conflicts with India, to the point that you no longer wonder if they're going to use the nuke they have, but how long until they use it.

Why are we allied with these people again?

it is one of THE MOST unexplained and ignored topics of this century.

like i said, i smell a rat.

[ChumpDumper]

Folks, the ISI pretty much created the Taliban. There are definitely those in the ISI with an interest in bringing back Islamist rule in Afghanistan.

Thinking Musharraf is in full control of the ISI is faulty.

This is just one more reason committing to nation-building in Iraq while Afghanistan remained unfinished was a horrible idea.

[Nbadan]

Folks, the ISI pretty much created the Taliban. There are definitely those in the ISI with an interest in bringing back Islamist rule in Afghanistan.

Not to mention that Muhammed Atta, ringleader of the Arab 9/11 co-conspirators, was receiving monies from the ISI, the Pakistan equivalent of our CIA....but the CIA worked closely with the ISI to defeat the Ruskies...

[Nbadan]

Thinking Musharraf is in full control of the ISI is faulty.

No doubt...in fact on could say that there are elements in the ISI which would like to see Musharref get Saddamed....

[Nbadan]

This is just one more reason committing to nation-building in Iraq while Afghanistan remained unfinished was a horrible idea.

The Bushco administration did everything it could to deflect 9/11 to Iraq

[boutons_]

http://www.truthout.org/article/2-billion-us-aid-pakistan-questioned

The mishandling of the Paki FATAs and the near-border Taleban is clearly one of the huge mistakes of dubya's terms, just part of their half-cocked cowboy-ishness of busting into a country without having Act II, etc defined AT ALL.

Same no-Act II story in Iraq.

So tell us again how the Repugs are so fucking strong on National Security. :lol

[xrayzebra]

Do any of you duffus's understand anything about the people in this region? And for you folks that live in the U.S. hey, ever heard of Mexico. Increase Mexico by tenfold and you have that region. It is a way of life. Accept it or whatever. Life in that region is dependent on status. Pure and simple, like it or not.

[clambake]

Do any of you duffus's understand anything about the people in this region? And for you folks that live in the U.S. hey, ever heard of Mexico. Increase Mexico by tenfold and you have that region. It is a way of life. Accept it or whatever. Life in that region is dependent on status. Pure and simple, like it or not.

ray, this is where the people responsible for 9/11 are hangin out.

please explain why bush doesn't care about that.

[xrayzebra]

ray, this is where the people responsible for 9/11 are hangin out.

please explain why bush doesn't care about that.

He personally told me it was because he hates you.
Okay. I didn't want to hurt your feelings, but, well you know...and he knows you live in ..... some undisclosed location...

[clambake]

He personally told me it was because he hates you.
Okay. I didn't want to hurt your feelings, but, well you know...and he knows you live in ..... some undisclosed location...

just shows your empty reasons for bush support.

you'd think at your age you might have learned something.

[xrayzebra]

just shows your empty reasons for bush support.

you'd think at your age you might have learned something.

I have to really not pay much attention to people like you.

[clambake]

I have to really not pay much attention to people like you.

why don't you want to get the people responsible?

[whottt]

it is one of THE MOST unexplained and ignored topics of this century.

like i said, i smell a rat.


I just never understood this...

1) It's common knowledge Pakistan has been a Taliban refugee for a long time now. They say they're not, they received $4 billion in aid for 3 years after 9/11, and you still read how Taliban cross the border with impunity.
2) They're the worst example of a democracy in the Middle East. Musharraf named himself president in 2001. And I don't even have to talk about Bhutto.
3) They're always having border conflicts with India, to the point that you no longer wonder if they're going to use the nuke they have, but how long until they use it.

Why are we allied with these people again?


Because you stupid fucking idiots...Afghanistan is a landlocked country...whose airspace would you have preferred we use otherwise? China's? Or Iran's?

Stupid fucks.


And Pakistan isn't in the ME...idiot.


PS: The US doesn't largest army in the world either...dumbfuck, and even if we did, it's not that large in Afghanistan.




God you guys are fucking stupid...not a crime in and of itself, but what's really annoying is you think you're smart. You're not...you're fucking stupid.



And other reasons we are allied with Musharraf...

1. Because when we weren't, the Taliban rose to power in Afghanistan.
2. Because what will replace him is much worse.
3. Because his country is an economic shithole with no natural resources, and if we don't ally with him...someone else will, and he'll be only too willing, with anyone.


You guys are so fucking stupid...no wonder you don't understand the true threat of terrorism...


Pakistan is just about the most corrupt and fucked up country on the face of the Earth...and the version of militant Islam produced within it's borders is worse than that produced in Saudi Arabia and Iran.

It's as fucked up as Saudi Arabia, with all the humanitarian and civil rights problems...only it doesn't have oil...and it has nukes.




You guys have no idea of their child homelessness issues, which is where the Pakistani terrorists are coming from...

You have no idea what they are teaching those uneducated, drug addicted, homess kids in the Madarassas of Pakistan...


You have no fucking idea...if you did...you'd understand that those guys getting power in Pakistan would likley usher in the apocalypse.



Why don't you guys fucking educate yourselves rather just reading propaganda...stupid fucks.

[whottt]

Folks, the ISI pretty much created the Taliban. There are definitely those in the ISI with an interest in bringing back Islamist rule in Afghanistan.




And in other news...Bush beat Gore without winning the popular vote.


Wake me when you get to 2008...I'll be waiting.

[clambake]

so, pakistan was going to align with afghanistan if we used their airspace.

no wonder the govt. stamped your file "This guy is fucked in the head".

[whottt]

The question need to be asking yourselves is why in the hell did Musharraf ally with us, given the fact that the most radical strain of Islam has a stronghold within his own country and government...and it's simple, because his country is an economic catastrophe and he needs the money. The lack of money is why militant is Islam is so strong in Pakistan.

[whottt]

so, pakistan was going to align with afghanistan if we used their airspace.

No idiot...

#1. Pakistan was already allied with the Taliban.

#2. What part of Afghanistan is a landlocked country don't you get? Stupid fuck. How do you propose we get our military into Afghanistan without the permission of one of the countries surrounding it?


Like I said...whose airspace would you have preferred we use, China's? Or Iran's?








no wonder the govt. stamped your file "This guy is fucked in the head".

No...being fucked in the head is not understanding what landlocked means or understanding what happens when you fly over a countries airspace without permission...

Dumb piece of stupid shit.


Seriously...you are the stupidest person on this forum.

[clambake]

The question need to be asking yourselves is why in the hell did Musharraf ally with us, given the fact that the most radical strain of Islam has a stronghold within his own country and government...and it's simple, because his country is an economic catastrophe and he needs the money. The lack of money is why militant is Islam is so strong in Pakistan.

no shit sherlock. but you left out a rant about how it's apparently not his country. why don't you want the ones responsible?

[clambake]

oh, and once again dipshit, piss ant pakistan would've gotten mowed if they stood in our way.

but the govt. was right about you.

[ElNono]

No idiot...

#1. Pakistan was already allied with the Taliban.

#2. What part of Afghanistan is a landlocked country don't you get? Stupid fuck. How do you propose we get our military into Afghanistan without the permission of one of the countries surrounding it?

Like I said...whose airspace would you have preferred we use, China's? Or Iran's?


You could have used China's or Russia's airspace if the operation was sanctioned by the UN security council. But no, this was a unilateral action by the UK and the US. This wasn't even a NATO operation.

So we had to compromise with Pakistan. The Taliban was cleaned up from Afghanistan, but a good bunch moved to Pakistan and keep coming and going.
But since we're in bed with Pakistan, we can't do shit about it.
Now, according to dubya, states harboring terrorists are enemies of the USA.
I guess we should put an footnote explaining that Pakistan is a special case?

At least we agree that Pakistan is a fucked up country.
And I stand corrected, Pakistan is in South Asia, not the Middle East.

[whottt]

oh, and once again dipshit, piss ant pakistan would've gotten mowed if they stood in our way.


So you favor unilateral action against a country that had commited no aggression against us or anyone else? One who just so happens to be a nuclear power.

You're a stupid fuck.



They also have a military built up to match up with India...you know, India, and it's nuclear arsenal, and it's 1+ billion population of Muslim hating Hindus.


On top of that, Pakistan was the Taliban's #1 ally and befefactor in the entire world...and by allying with Musharraf we broke that alliance.

[boutons_]

"favor unilateral action against a country that had commited no aggression against us or anyone else"

... are you talking about Iraq? I'd say you just tripped over your own dick, but the presupposes you have one.

[whottt]

You could have used China's or Russia's airspace if the operation was sanctioned by the UN security council.


Yeah...China and Russia would have gone for that in a heartbeat. Because they're our staunch allies.


#1. We didn't Russia, we already had a northern front from which to launch the war. Which does jack shit good since the Taliban had little or no control of the North, and was launched out of their Pakistani border.




2. I'm sure China just loves the idea of a brand spanking new US allied Democracy sitting on their border...you idiot.



3. If anything, China is supporting the Taliban right now...why in the hell would they would want a US allied Democracy sitting on their fucking border?





But no, this was a unilateral action by the UK and the US. This wasn't even a NATO operation.


You're an idiot.





So we had to compromise with Pakistan. [/qute]


Dude...fucking Pakistan was sponsoring the Taliban you idiot.


Newsflash: So was Saudi Arabia.



[quote]
The Taliban was cleaned up from Afghanistan, but a good bunch moved to Pakistan and keep coming and going.

Idiot...a good bunch of them were always in Pakistan. The Taliban came from the Pashtuns, those are Pakistanis as well as Afghanis.





But since we're in bed with Pakistan, we can't do shit about it.

If we weren't in bed with Pakistan...who do you think they'd be in bed with? Them..and their nuclear program, and nuclear materials, and huge ass population of Wahabi Muslims?






Now, according to dubya, states harboring terrorists are enemies of the USA.
I guess we should put an footnote explaining that Pakistan is a special case?


Hell yes it was and is a special case.


Damn you guys are fucking stupid.





At least we agree that Pakistan is a fucked up country.
And I stand corrected, Pakistan is in South Asia, not the Middle East.



You have no idea how truly fucked up up Pakistan is...no idea. If so then Musharraf's motivations wouldn't be mysterious to you, and neither would Islam's...or it's byproducts.


And you also wouldn't wonder why we allied with him and should continue to staying allied with him.


And if you're real smart you'll say your prayers and hope that Musharraf doesn't get taken out...


You will see an American city get nuked by terrorist attack if the Radical Muslims in Pakistan take power.


You literally have no idea what they are doing to produce fanatics there...it's probably the most inhumane and apocalyptic movement ever produced in the history of mankind.

You also have no idea the way women are treated there either...


Kids and Women aren't human beings in Pakistan...they are treated as subhuman.



PS: For all you guys thinking Islam is some kind of joke that could never serious threaten us, just know Pakistan was the first Islamic state of the Industrialized World.



Someday you guys will look into it for yourselves...and once you do, if you can still chalk it up to some sort of cultural difference, or anything other than pure evil, then you're a bigger idiot than I thought, and that'll be pretty amazing, because I think both of you guys are huge idiots.

[whottt]

"favor unilateral action against a country that had commited no aggression against us or anyone else"

... are you talking about Iraq?


No...Iraq attacked Iran and invaded Kuwait, they also signed a cease fire agreement with us, that they were in violation of.










I'd say you just tripped over your own dick, but the presupposes you have one.


And I'd say you should shut up and get back to sucking Usama...it's what you do best...American.

[ChumpDumper]

And in other news...Bush beat Gore without winning the popular vote.


Wake me when you get to 2008...I'll be waiting.I'm here.

So what?

[whottt]

Wake me up when you guys also realize that by putting our military in both Iraq and Afghanistan, we now have military.espionagesupport in countries bordering two tremendous nuclear threats, not to mention producers of terrorists...


Iraq borders Iran.
Afghanisant borders Iran and Pakistan...

Pakistan has the US Military on one side and the Indian on the other...


Iran has the US on two sides, Iraq and Pakistan...not to mention the Sudis.

You idiots still want to talk about WMD?

I want to talk about splitting alliances, conquer and divide...but you guys are obviously too dumb to think on that level.



Geez, look at a fucking map sometime.


Smarter brains than Bush and congress, or anyone on this forum were behind what we did, and it's actually pretty brilliant from a strategic standpoint. I'm not saying I supported going into Iraq...but I definitely don't support pulling out now.


PS: Strategic plans announced to the World is a shitty strategy...so why you idiots think the government, would, or should, be announcing their true plans in press conferences is beyond me.


But maybe you should continue with your assumption that the government is lying, only actually attempt researching information for yourself rather than beliving what you are fed constantly in the media.

[boutons_]

"Iraq attacked Iran and invaded Kuwait"

Iran and Iraq battled to a stalement. We had no dog in that hunt, but that didn't stop Reagan and friends from supporting Saddam heavily during that war and all through the 80s. There was Iraqi oil money to be pocketed by Rummy and dickhead selling miltary stuff to Saddam.

I got the impression that the First Gulf War plus sanctions totally destroyed Iran's military threat. That would today still be the case without dubya's oil grab invasion. But it's OK with you that dubya wasted 400 US military lives and 10s of 1000s of mental/physical casualties.

dubya can break Geneva convention and the pact with Russia, but Saddam can't break a peace treaty? How did Saddam breaking a peace treaty threaten the USA, or are you reduced to trivial legalisms now that WMD, etc have all been proven to be lies?

I dissent against dubya and his bullshit bogus wars, therefore I suck OBL? Really, really weak shit. I think you must be in some kind of daze from all the bitch slapping I deliver to you.

[whottt]

"Iraq attacked Iran and invaded Kuwait"

Iran and Iraq battled to a stalement.

Doesn't change the fact that Iraq attacked them.






We had no dog in that hunt, but that didn't stop Reagan and friends from supporting Saddam heavily during that war and all through the 80s.

If we hadn't the Russians would have...and of course we supported him against Iran...the Ayatollah's are a bunch of pricks.



There was Iraqi oil money to be pocketed by Rummy and dickhead selling miltary stuff to Saddam.

Yeah we sold him shit...that didn't mean we wanted him to use it the way he wanted to use it, or do the things he did with it.


But if we hadn't allied with him the ME would probably be totally communist right, and we'd have lost the cold war...


Seeing as how even the Russians think being communist sucks...I'd say us not being communist is a good thing.






I got the impression that the First Gulf War plus sanctions totally destroyed Iran's military threat. That would today still be the case without dubya's oil grab invasion. But it's OK with you that dubya wasted 400 US military lives and 10s of 1000s of mental/physical casualties.


Dude, the sanctions and what they were doing were utilized for Propaganda purposes by Islamacists, on top of that, they were absolutely fucking the people and doing nothing to stop Saddam.


On top of that...our weapons inspectors had been kicked out for years, and the OFF program was corrupt and being used to circumvent the sanctions.


And the same countries that were circumventing the sanctions were pushing for the sanctions to be released...


So they could get the oil.


And Saddam was going to arm himself with WMD...so that he could then resume his ME ambitions...and with anyone unable to stop him due to his nuclear arsenal.



And those sanctions were going to be lifted...

France has zero oil you dipshit, why you'd think it'd be less about Oil for them is entirely beyond me.










dubya can break Geneva convention and the pact with Russia, but Saddam can't break a peace treaty?

Sure he can...and we can kick his ass for it.





How did Saddam breaking a peace treaty threaten the USA, or are you reduced to trivial legalisms now that WMD, etc have all been proven to be lies?


It didn't threaten the USA...it gave us an excuse to kick his ass, get on Iran's border, and increase our presence in the ME.


The threat to the USA was his resources uniting with Usama's network.




Dude...what do you think Saddam was going to do once the sanctions were lifted?

This dude had shown the willingness to invade anyone. For Oil and power.

His goals were the same as Usama's...the reformation of the Ottoman empire with himself as ruler.


In America, kids want to grow up to be Rockstars...in Islam, they grow up wanting to be the Caliphate.










I dissent against dubya and his bullshit bogus wars, therefore I suck OBL?

You don't dissent...you dehumanize.


And why were you disenting Lance Armstrong? He didn't vote for Bush. He's against the Iraq war.


I'll have more respect for you if you just admit you hate America...there's no need to lie, you have the right to free speech here.



Really, really weak shit. I think you must be in some kind of daze from all the bitch slapping I deliver to you.



Dude...you're an anti-american shill...

You're either aware of it, and lets face it, you are, or else you're stupid...I don't think you're that stupid boutons. I mean you are stupid for your ultimate beliefs, but you aren't stupid enough to where you aren't aware of your own position IMO, like clambake is for example...I think you're very aware of your own position.


You and Nbadan aren't total morons like clambake and El Nono...when I call you guys stupid dont't confuse it as being the same label of stupidity that clambake is stuck with...


I mean after all...I know you know what landlocked means :tu

[whottt]

Someday you liberals will realize economic sanctions are less humane than war...and less effective as well...and what the create is worse than what is created by war.


You know...the rage Hitler tapped into...that was economic rage...that's also what is fueling Rad Islam...it's a powerful motivator, and war is a better alternative to war than economic sanctions are.

Someday you'll take a look at the umemployment rates of the countries producing the most terrorists...and then you'll realize why Democracy and capitalism, IOW, the same lives you guys are privileged to have, are the best weapons against terrorism.

[ElNono]

Yeah...China and Russia would have gone for that in a heartbeat. Because they're our staunch allies.

#1. We didn't Russia, we already had a northern front from which to launch the war. Which does jack shit good since the Taliban had little or no control of the North, and was launched out of their Pakistani border.

Let me quote you for the answer to that:



What part of Afghanistan is a landlocked country don't you get? Stupid fuck. How do you propose we get our military into Afghanistan without the permission of one of the countries surrounding it?

So yeah, we could have used Russian airspace.



2. I'm sure China just loves the idea of a brand spanking new US allied Democracy sitting on their border...you idiot.

I'm not saying they wouldn't want some conditions, but we sure succeeded convincing them to look the other way while we invaded Iraq. You know we had to make concessions for that too, right?



3. If anything, China is supporting the Taliban right now...why in the hell would they would want a US allied Democracy sitting on their fucking border?

Proof? The US is China's best customer. And the Chinese already deal with Taiwan, a US allied Democracy.



You're an idiot.

No, you're an idiot.



Dude...fucking Pakistan was sponsoring the Taliban you idiot.
Newsflash: So was Saudi Arabia.

We sponsored the Taliban indirectly by arming the Mujahideen through three US presidential administrations. Whats your point?
We tried to convince Pakistan to stop sponsoring the Taliban and help us fight them instead, but it didn't work. You did read the article that started this thread, didn't you?



Idiot...a good bunch of them were always in Pakistan. The Taliban came from the Pashtuns, those are Pakistanis as well as Afghanis.

The Pashtuns were the primary ethnic group on the Taliban, but that doesn't mean that all Pashtuns were part of the Taliban. As a matter of fact, the current Afghan president, Karsai, is a Pashtun himself. (He's actually from Kandahar, where the Taliban emerged).



If we weren't in bed with Pakistan...who do you think they'd be in bed with? Them..and their nuclear program, and nuclear materials, and huge ass population of Wahabi Muslims?

They would be begging to be in bed with us anyways. They already have enough shit to worry about with India to piss off another nuclear power.
You know we already pissed them off back in the 90's with sanctions over their nuclear capabilities, and they didn't fire any nukes, right?




You have no idea how truly fucked up up Pakistan is...no idea. If so then Musharraf's motivations wouldn't be mysterious to you, and neither would Islam's...or it's byproducts.
And you also wouldn't wonder why we allied with him and should continue to staying allied with him.
And if you're real smart you'll say your prayers and hope that Musharraf doesn't get taken out...

And you do know? Who are you? Is your mom Pakistani?



You will see an American city get nuked by terrorist attack if the Radical Muslims in Pakistan take power.
You literally have no idea what they are doing to produce fanatics there...it's probably the most inhumane and apocalyptic movement ever produced in the history of mankind.

You make it sound like we should have invaded Pakistan instead of Iraq.
And if they're so fucked up why they haven't done that to India? They hate them as much as they hate us. Because India would have pushed the red button and wiped them out of the map?
Well, we can do the same, 100x over. You know that, right? You don't think they know that?



You also have no idea the way women are treated there either...
Kids and Women aren't human beings in Pakistan...they are treated as subhuman.
PS: For all you guys thinking Islam is some kind of joke that could never serious threaten us, just know Pakistan was the first Islamic state of the Industrialized World.

I believe you're talking about Radical Muslims. Islam is a religion.



Someday you guys will look into it for yourselves...and once you do, if you can still chalk it up to some sort of cultural difference, or anything other than pure evil, then you're a bigger idiot than I thought, and that'll be pretty amazing, because I think both of you guys are huge idiots.

In all honesty, I actually think you are the retard here. Just my opinion, which is just as good as yours. Those countries ARE fucked up. That's why the innuendo of dubya saying he's going to transform them into peaceful democracies is delusional. Another reason to get the fuck out of there.

[whottt]

The best thing that can happen to resolve this war and this situation, is for a leader to emerge who has true convicition about undoing the shitholing of the ME by Europe.


But we don't have that...


But all we have a choice of two dumbasses, one who is going to cowtow to all the American religious zealots...or the other who is going to cut and run and make a shitty situation worse.

I hate to break it to you guys...but it's not Bush and the Republicans that are at war...it's the United States of America...and because you are citizens of that country, you are at war, for better or for worse.



Now why you guys advocate ambivalence about Iraq is beyond me...but it's an incredibly stupid notion....and it's damn sure not any kind of liberalism.


There will be a genocide when we pull out, and the two regional powers in that region, Iran and Saudi Arabia, will battle it out for control of that country, and they will have their pick of suitors to ally with in our absence...not to mention our economy will be completely fucked...and we'll be a step closer to shithole status.

And no one is going to consider the USA as a good guy once that happens...we'll just be quitters, without the heart to finish what we started, or the balls to stand up to a brutal, opressive and backwards ideology...

[clambake]

So you favor unilateral action against a country that had commited no aggression against us or anyone else? One who just so happens to be a nuclear power.
to stand with taliban would have been an act of agreession, moron.


They also have a military built up to match up with India...you know, India, and it's nuclear arsenal, and it's 1+ billion population of Muslim hating Hindus.
we wouldn't have given a shit.


On top of that, Pakistan was the Taliban's #1 ally and befefactor in the entire world...and by allying with Musharraf we broke that alliance.
yeah, now they just harbour our enemy. are you sure they didn't stamp "This guys a dumbass" on your file?

[ElNono]

There will be a genocide when we pull out, and the two regional powers in that region, Iran and Saudi Arabia, will battle it out for control of that country, and they will have their pick of suitors to ally with in our absence...not to mention our economy will be completely fucked...and we'll be a step closer to shithole status.

There's more than Saudi Arabia and Iran. There's also Syria, Egypt and Pakistan. So you're basically fighting 7 countries, in 2 wars at the same time.
Perhaps we should have thought of the genocides BEFORE invading Iraq.
And the economy will be fucked regardless, thanks to the Trillions in debt we spent on this war.



And no one is going to consider the USA as a good guy once that happens...we'll just be quitters, without the heart to finish what we started, or the balls to stand up to a brutal, opressive and backwards ideology...
It's Vietnam all over again... We'll just make a couple of Rambo movies making it look like we won, and nobody will remember... :rolleyes

[whottt]

Let me quote you for the answer to that:



So yeah, we could have used Russian airspace.


:lol

I even gave you a chance...


You are such a stupid fuck...look at a map sometime.


Seriously...look at a map.




I'm not saying they wouldn't want some conditions, but we sure succeeded convincing them to look the other way while we invaded Iraq. You know we had to make concessions for that too, right?



Idiot....they didn't look away, they opposed it all the fucking way. They just didn't go to war over it...


It's not on their border...fool.






Proof? The US is China's best customer. And the Chinese already deal with Taiwan, a US allied Democracy.



Gotdamn you are stupid dude, we are about 5 steps away from being at war with China over Taiwan.




No, you're an idiot.


No you are...

You truly are...

You don't know shit and try to lie, backpedal and rationalize your way out of it...and you fool no one except other idiots.

Mr. Devil's advocate.


You don't know who has the biggest military in the world.
You don't know what Afghanistan's borders are.
You don't know where Pakistan is located...


You're just a stupid fuck...and you deserve that label for forming an opinion out of ignorance.






You planning on looking up which country actually has the biggest military in the world? Or do you think your obvious backpedaling is doing the job?

It didn't...I know you don't know what you're talking about. And so do you.






We sponsored the Taliban indirectly by arming the Mujahideen through three US presidential administrations. Whats your point?

My point? That was then this is now...





We tried to convince Pakistan to stop sponsoring the Taliban and help us fight them instead, but it didn't work. You did read the article that started this thread, didn't you?

Um...it did work.


Do you think Mullah Omar and Usama were saying good old Mushy, he's got our backs, as we were bombing the shit out of them with planes launched from and flying over Pakistani airspace?

You think they just considered that a little argument between friends or something?


Musharraf's ass is completely and totally in a sling...


I guaranfuckingtee you he is on our side...






The Pashtuns were the primary ethnic group on the Taliban, but that doesn't mean that all Pashtuns were part of the Taliban. As a matter of fact, the current Afghan president, Karsai, is a Pashtun himself. (He's actually from Kandahar, where the Taliban emerged).


Yeah...where is Kandahar located douchebag? Hint: It's not on the Russian border you colossal idiot.


And no shit Karsai is a Pashtun, how in the fuck do you think he won the election?






They would be begging to be in bed with us anyways. They already have enough shit to worry about with India to piss off another nuclear power.
You know we already pissed them off back in the 90's with sanctions over their nuclear capabilities, and they didn't fire any nukes, right?


So basically you are in favor of unilateral action against non-agressive countries...

Only you're in favor of doing it to countries with nuclear arsenals...


Fucking stupid.








And you do know? Who are you? Is your mom Pakistani?


I know...





You make it sound like we should have invaded Pakistan instead of Iraq.


Um...I promise you, if we invaded Pakistan, they would have used their nukes on someone somewhere before losing that war...and how many American lives would have been lost in that case douche bag?

Your idea isn't less war...it was more war.





And if they're so fucked up why they haven't done that to India? They hate them as much as they hate us. Because India would have pushed the red button and wiped them out of the map?


They can wipe India out...just as easily.

Damn...do you know shit about anything except how to turn on a computer and type in total stupidity?

You obviously don't know how to google "map"...



Well, we can do the same, 100x over. You know that, right? You don't think they know that?


No idiot...Pakistan could nuke itself and extinguish all life on this planet....you're just too fucking stupid to realize that.

And yes...if the right people get power in Pakistan that could easily happen.




I believe you're talking about Radical Muslims. Islam is a religion.



The economic principles, xenophobia, and lack of civil rights present in Islamic States(which Islam advocates) beget radical Islam...

Sin,

Pakistan, Saudi Arabia etc.





In all honesty, I actually think you are the retard here. Just my opinion,

And as you have proven...you're opinion is a stupid one backed by little knowledge...so you go right ahead and have your opinion.

If I want to know about Russian borders...you'll be the first I call.

Mr. advcocate.





which is just as good as yours.

Really idiot?

Then how come you don't realize Russia doesn't border Afghanistan?

And that China has the biggest military in the World?

And that Pakistan isn't in the ME?


And what a Devil's advocate is?



Those countries ARE fucked up. That's why the innuendo of dubya saying he's going to transform them into peaceful democracies is delusional. Another reason to get the fuck out of there.


Yeah and so let's see...instead of driving a wedge between Pakistan and the Taliban..

You'd have had us go to war with them, and China, and Russia, not to mention Aghanistan, completely and totally as a unilateral action...


You're a stupid fuck...go look up a map sometime.

Then look up the size of the militaries in the world.

Then go look up the history of the Aztek empire.

Then go look up what a Devil's advocate is.

Then go find out the difference between an uninformed opinion Vs an informed one...


When you are ignorant of indisputable commonly known facts your opinion is a stupid, uninformed one...it's not even informed at the most basic level.

[whottt]

There's more than Saudi Arabia and Iran. There's also Syria, Egypt and Pakistan. So you're basically fighting 7 countries, in 2 wars at the same time.

Yet more proof of your stupidity...Saudi, Syria, Egypt and Pakistan are ideologicially opposed to Iran and it's goals...they are pitted against each others, and they like each other less than they like us.





Perhaps we should have thought of the genocides BEFORE invading Iraq.

What's happened in Iraq is nowhere near a genocide.






It's Vietnam all over again... We'll just make a couple of Rambo movies making it look like we won, and nobody will remember... :rolleyes

It's not Vietnam all over again...it's much more important that we win this war than it was Vietnam...

Islamic countries(rich and poor) are 10 times the bitch, and threat a poor communist one was.

Sin,

Afghanistan

[ElNono]

:lol
I even gave you a chance...
You are such a stupid fuck...look at a map sometime.
Seriously...look at a map.


I did you retard. Control of military airspace for Turkmenistan and Kazakhstan is almost completely controlled by Russia. I mean, you're so *well* informed and you don't even know this.



Idiot....they didn't look away, they opposed it all the fucking way. They just didn't go to war over it...


They sure DID look away once the war started. I'm still looking for your 'proof' that China is helping the Taliban.



Gotdamn you are stupid dude, we are about 5 steps away from being at war with China over Taiwan.


Again, proof? Where is it? Did we send our fleet over there? Shut the FUCK up with your weak shit.



You don't know shit and try to lie, backpedal and rationalize your way out of it...and you fool no one except other idiots.

You still need to prove anything you say is true. I mean, really. You talk talk talk and it's all hollow. You got nothing to back up what you say. You're just spewing bullshit left and right. I can play that game too.



You don't know who has the biggest military in the world.
You don't know what Afghanistan's borders are.
You don't know where Pakistan is located...

You planning on looking up which country actually has the biggest military in the world? Or do you think your obvious backpedaling is doing the job?

It didn't...I know you don't know what you're talking about. And so do you.


Biggest doesn't mean just personnel. None of the 5 countries that have more personnel than the US have the technological prowess that the US army does. None of them spend in Military as much as the US does. As a matter of fact, the US spending on Military is 46% of the entire world spending on military. This is a fact. The US has the biggest, mightier army in the world.

I know what Afghanistans' border are. Prove that I don't.
I know where Pakistan is located. Prove that I don't.



My point? That was then this is now...

So, basically you don't have a point. Exactly.



Um...it did work.

I see it really did. That's why they're sending death squads from Pakistan to kill the US-backed president in Afghanistan. Reality is calling, are you answering?



Do you think Mullah Omar and Usama were saying good old Mushy, he's got our backs, as we were bombing the shit out of them with planes launched from and flying over Pakistani airspace?

That's why Usama is laughing at you from someplace in Pakistan? That really worked great!




Musharraf's ass is completely and totally in a sling...
I guaranfuckingtee you he is on our side...

I don't doubt that. I doubt Musharraf is in control of his fucking army.



And no shit Karsai is a Pashtun, how in the fuck do you think he won the election?

Babbling again. You declared all Pashtun to be Taliban. Who's backpedaling now?



So basically you are in favor of unilateral action against non-agressive countries...
Only you're in favor of doing it to countries with nuclear arsenals...

I never said I did. You're just making shit up again. I would have been happy enough to cut a deal with Pakistan that didn't involve giving them 4 fucking billion dollars to support the Taliban.

And BTW, YOU are in favor of unilateral action against non-agressive countries... Preventive war anyone?



I know...

This is, in a nutshell, the depth of your responses. Full of air. Entirely unsubstantiated opinions.
You KNOW JACKSHIT. JACKSHIT.



Um...I promise you, if we invaded Pakistan, they would have used their nukes on someone somewhere before losing that war...and how many American lives would have been lost in that case douche bag?
Your idea isn't less war...it was more war.

Again, claiming I said things I didn't say. I said: "You make it sound like we should have invaded Pakistan instead of Iraq."
Where did I say we should have invaded Pakistan? Do you have reading comprehension problems? That would explain a lot.



Damn...do you know shit about anything except how to turn on a computer and type in total stupidity?
You obviously don't know how to google "map"...

I know how to spot a complete fraud when I read it. Yes, that would be you.



No idiot...Pakistan could nuke itself and extinguish all life on this planet....you're just too fucking stupid to realize that.
And yes...if the right people get power in Pakistan that could easily happen.

Oh really? With all of their 60 nuclear warheads. All life on this planet?
You need Xanax right now.



The economic principles, xenophobia, and lack of civil rights present in Islamic States(which Islam advocates) beget radical Islam...

So we should just hate every Muslim basically... The more you talk the more you look like a complete ignorant.



Really idiot?
Then how come you don't realize Russia doesn't border Afghanistan?

Quote me where I said Russia borders Afghanistan? You can't, because I didn't. Again jumping to conclusions.



And that China has the biggest military in the World?

They have the most personnel. Very different.



And that Pakistan isn't in the ME?

I did tell you that.



And what a Devil's advocate is?


Here, educate yourself, if you can actually read:
In common parlance, a devil's advocate is someone who takes a position, sometimes one he or she disagrees with, for the sake of argument.




Yeah and so let's see...instead of driving a wedge between Pakistan and the Taliban..
You'd have had us go to war with them, and China, and Russia, not to mention Aghanistan, completely and totally as a unilateral action...

More bullshit. Never said to go to war with anybody. Quote me, I dare you.



You're a stupid fuck...go look up a map sometime.
Then look up the size of the militaries in the world.
Then go look up the history of the Aztek empire.
Then go look up what a Devil's advocate is.
Then go find out the difference between an uninformed opinion Vs an informed one...
When you are ignorant of indisputable commonly known facts your opinion is a stupid, uninformed one...it's not even informed at the most basic level.

You're actually full of hot air. Hollow and empty. Arguing without backing anything up. Constantly using profanity to pass your bullshit as fact. Twisting what other people say to make your argument. Completely unable to concede you are even slightly wrong. I know people like you. I LOVE to argue with people like you and expose you for the FRAUD that you are.

Hey, if you don't like to read my opinions, feel free to use the 'ignore' feature on the board. But I hope you don't. If you stick around, you might be able to learn something.

[ElNono]

Yet more proof of your stupidity...Saudi, Syria, Egypt and Pakistan are ideologicially opposed to Iran and it's goals...they are pitted against each others, and they like each other less than they like us.


They don't have a problem hating Israel together and providing support for Hamas. Do you realize that if the US wins, Israel wins by proxy, don't you?



What's happened in Iraq is nowhere near a genocide.

More reading comprehension problems. I didn't say it was a genocide. i said we should have thought about the possible effects of the invasion BEFORE invading. Genocide in that area is unavoidable at this point.



It's not Vietnam all over again...it's much more important that we win this war than it was Vietnam...
Islamic countries(rich and poor) are 10 times the bitch, and threat a poor communist one was.

They're no different than they were before we went there.

[whottt]

They don't have a problem hating Israel together and providing support for Hamas. Do you realize that if the US wins, Israel wins by proxy, don't you?


Hmmm...I used to think they hated us and Israel more than each other...I wish that were true, because if it were, we'd already be on our way out of Iraq right now.


Nah...all of them fear a loss of status and influence in the region(and so does Russia BTW)...to each other, to us. It's all the same.





More reading comprehension problems. I didn't say it was a genocide. i said we should have thought about the possible effects of the invasion BEFORE invading. Genocide in that area is unavoidable at this point.

Is that you what you tell yourself so that when we pull out you won't feel guilty about the genocide?

[whottt]

Hey, if you don't like to read my opinions, feel free to use the 'ignore' feature on the board.

I don't like reading your opinions...they are mundane, they are common, they are standard anti-war talking points that you can get from anyone with only the slightest insight into the actual situation.



It's not just you I'd have to put on ignore to get rid of them...it's 90% of the libs in this forum.





But I hope you don't. If you stick around, you might be able to learn something.



Oh I'll be here and there...

I want you to understand something though, I'm not trying to change your opinion. Does my style of argument seem designed to endear you to my POV?


You see I've argued with idiots like you...there is little or no chance of changing your opinion. You think your mundane and trite little comments are something new to this forum and are somehow clever on your part...the fact tha tyou think that would be the case when you obviously have put little or no effort into researching the facts before forming them...proves that you are just the opposite of what you think you are...Mr. Advocate.


No...in fact my style of arguing can only serve to re-inforce your illinformed opinion to the degree that you will defend your POV even when you know it's wrong to the imagined personal stake involved...and me? I'm happy to help you paint yourself into a corner of stupidity...it's not like you weren't stupid to begin with...you know? I mean the way I look at it is it's deserved...


I mean...who says libs are the only ones that get to dehumanize?



Yes, I know it seems wrong to be both right and abusive/overly vulgar, and that's why I do it. I want it to be hard on you to accept my POV and acknoledge the factual nature of it. I want it to be a bitter pill should you ever elect to swallow it, and if you chose not too, well, you won't be any stupider than you were when we began and I at least did my part to introduce some facts into your dull and unenlightened political mind.

You know, I've decided that there definitely is certain altruism to what I do. Plus, it provides me with an opportunity to vent.

I mean your posts are stupid, excuse me, your advocacy...and I find a way to turn them into positive for all of us.


I call it a win win...wouldn't you?




No, I'm not giving you any links, I don't care to prove shit to you. I know your opinion was an ill formed one with little or no research put into forming it...


Plus, it's patently obvious that you have extremely oversimplified view of an extremely complex and fluid situation...


I don't doubt that you're confused about a lot of things....I don't doubt that you don't understand a great many things. I mean...that is the essence of being stupid after all.

[ElNono]

Hmmm...I used to think they hated us and Israel more than each other...I wish that were true, because if it were, we'd already be on our way out of Iraq right now.

Nah...all of them fear a loss of status and influence in the region(and so does Russia BTW)...to each other, to us. It's all the same.


We'll be out of there sooner or later, it's unavoidable at this point. Not only we shouldn't have invaded Iraq in the first place, even when we did, we had absolutely no post-invasion strategy. The neo-cons thought that once we cut Saddam's head everybody else would fall inline, thanks us for the effort and let us control their country. When it didn't happen, they didn't have a plan B. Speaks volumes about the complete disconnect with reality.



Is that you what you tell yourself so that when we pull out you won't feel guilty about the genocide?
I won't feel guilty one bit when we pull out because there were multiple genocides before we got there, and there probably will be more genocide after we leave too. It's a way of life over there. They're fucking wackos, and that is that.

[ElNono]

I don't like reading your opinions...they are mundane, they are common, they are standard anti-war talking points that you can get from anyone with only the slightest insight into the actual situation.
It's not just you I'd have to put on ignore to get rid of them...it's 90% of the libs in this forum.

It's obvious you don't like reading my opinions. That's what delusional people do. Ignore reality and replace it with a false belief that's fanciful and derived from deception.
Now, you'll be hearing a lot of the anti-war arguments. To the tune of 68% of the American people (LINK (http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/05/01/bush.poll/)).
Luckily for us, we hear less and less of the radical neo-cunts like you as months go by.




Oh I'll be here and there...

I want you to understand something though, I'm not trying to change your opinion. Does my style of argument seem designed to endear you to my POV?
You see I've argued with idiots like you...there is little or no chance of changing your opinion. You think your mundane and trite little comments are something new to this forum and are somehow clever on your part...the fact tha tyou think that would be the case when you obviously have put little or no effort into researching the facts before forming them...proves that you are just the opposite of what you think you are...Mr. Advocate.

Of course you can't change my opinion with your attitude. In order to do so, you would need to earn my respect, and you can't do that trying to pass opinion for fact. You can't back up 90% of what you say, and what's even more idiotic, is that you lie in order to derail the conversation into more of your opinions, because you couldn't back up the previous ones. To the point that your opinions contradict the reality in front of you. That's so weak, we need to add 'whottt' to the definition of Fraud in the dictionary.
As opposed to you, who likes to demean everybody that disagrees with you, I never claimed to be any more clever than anybody else in here. Taking an opposing stance, even when I don't sympathize with the proposed view, is textbook usage of devil's advocate. I see other people here understood, even if they didn't agree, of what I did. But you're just trying to impose your deluded view, using profanity and demeaning people for effect. Unfortunately for you, I can actually see through the smoke and mirrors.



No...in fact my style of arguing can only serve to re-inforce your illinformed opinion to the degree that you will defend your POV even when you know it's wrong to the imagined personal stake involved...and me? I'm happy to help you paint yourself into a corner of stupidity...it's not like you weren't stupid to begin with...you know? I mean the way I look at it is it's deserved...

Funny you say that because when I made a mistake on this thread, I actually recognized I did. If there was somebody completely unwilling or unable to retract a statement, that would be you. And I have no 'personal stakes' involved in any conversation. I've both argued and agreed with many, many people in these threads, from all political backgrounds. And for the most part, it has been in a respectful manner, even when we didn't agree. My life doesn't revolve around 'winning' an internet conversation.



Yes, I know it seems wrong to be both right and abusive/overly vulgar, and that's why I do it. I want it to be hard on you to accept my POV and acknoledge the factual nature of it. I want it to be a bitter pill should you ever elect to swallow it, and if you chose not too, well, you won't be any stupider than you were when we began and I at least did my part to introduce some facts into your dull and unenlightened political mind.

Your arguments are full of fallacies. When pressed to actually back up these 'facts', you come empty over and over again, and they show for what they are, opinions, or flat out lies. How weak is that you have resort to making up stuff I didn't say in order to make a point? You have zero credibility, plus you come out as arrogant and uneducated (is there any worst kind?), because not only reality doesn't agree with you, you also use abundant profanity to express yourself too.



You know, I've decided that there definitely is certain altruism to what I do. Plus, it provides me with an opportunity to vent.
I mean your posts are stupid, excuse me, your advocacy...and I find a way to turn them into positive for all of us.
I call it a win win...wouldn't you?

I think if there's a positive on this thread, is that with every single iteration, and with every post you make, you keep showing everyone else on this board how arrogant and false you are. You are basically doing the work of showing yourself for the fraud you are. That's exactly what I want, and the reason I would love to keep discussing with you.
So definitely a win win. Shit, I don't even need to do much, just let you open your big mouth and point to the fallacies. So please go ahead and keep going. You're doing a great job of sinking yourself.



No, I'm not giving you any links, I don't care to prove shit to you. I know your opinion was an ill formed one with little or no research put into forming it...

And your evidence of this is?. Oh wait, thats right. You can't back up anything you say. When I posed the same question to you, your answer was truly revealing: 'I know...'. Keep going sparky, you're doing a terrific job.



Plus, it's patently obvious that you have extremely oversimplified view of an extremely complex and fluid situation...

Let me see what's this thread about. We made our bed with Pakistan, who plots and sends a death-squad to kill the US-backed Afghan president in order to destabilize that country, and we can't do shit about it, because we fucked up.
Not that complicated or fluid. I'm gonna ask again. Did you actually read the article that started this thread? Or you simply decided to ignore reality altogether?



I don't doubt that you're confused about a lot of things....I don't doubt that you don't understand a great many things. I mean...that is the essence of being stupid after all.
If I didn't have the conviction to argue my point of view, I would have stopped answering a long time ago. The fact I'm still here calling you out for your bullshit, goes to show I'm not confused in the least. A non-stupid person would have figured that one out...