Game Thread: Spurs at Mavericks - Dec. 26, 2019 @ 7:30pm CT

[vavvi]

Murray white played 3 minutes together
Now imagine if you cut derozan loose and played Murray white and walker together. You have great man defense, slashing and 2 3 point threats. Lonnie and white are more than willing enough to shoot the 3. white made more 3s than the pets combined tonight for s sake

I agree but "imagine if you cut Derozan loose" is a big if. Now he's here and Pop can't just not play him. And Derozan in the lineup can't work without a shooting pet.

And yeah only 3 minutes but the offense stopped completely for those 3 minutes so Pop had to emergency-sub.

[vavvi]

I watched the game.

And I did re-watch the 4th from the insertion of White, that's who I know the tiny sample size of Forbes' +/- is misleading.

The Murray-White combo lasted 2:18 straight and -4 (until the later brief combined 20 seconds where Pop was subbing Murray for Gay on some offense-defense). Why? Because White missed open makeable threes and turnovers that were not spacing related, and the open threes are what he needs to take (and then later hit one while Forbes was on the court boosting Forbes' +/-.

1st Offensive possession: DeRozan iso into postup and score. +2
DEF: Brunson hits a contested 3 against White. Contested. -1.
2nd OFF: Murray turnover on the pass to Aldridge. Nothing to do with spacing with White vs Forbes/Marco. White's man was actually on him. -1
DEF: Wright with a long uncontested 3 late in the shotclock on Aldridge after some confusion. -4

and that's where the margin would stay.

3rd : White miss, makeable shot. He made more threes in this game than Forbes, Marco and Mills combined remember. -4
DEF: Unforced turnover on Mavs -4
4th : White misses the makeable 3. I want White taking that shot. -4
DEF: missed contested 3 -4
5th : unforced turnover on White with the errant pass out to Murray. Unforced error, but also proof that White and Murray need more time together. -4

Pop then sends Forbes to sub in next stoppage.

DEF: contested miss, rebound. -4
6th: Rudy turnover and stubbed toe. Instead of giving the ball to Aldridge for the post-up, Murray dribbles in and gives it up to Rudy. -4

and that was it.

That tiny sample size of makeable missed threes by White, poor decision making from Murray resulting in 2 turnovers, and a bad pass from White.

Meanwhile

Forbes has a +12, but it's not because he was making plays like Lonnie against Houston in the big comeback.

If Doncic doesn't choke free throws he's only +10.

Forbes made nice driving and-1 and had a nice defensive sequence which was probably more an unforced turnover on Hardaway who didn't respect Forbes' defense and dribbled it off his ankle. But Forbes did stay in front. He also somehow wasn't scored on by Wright, so that's good on one drive, and got away with pushing Wright on another miss. So that's even more good.

There was a DeRozan fast break goaltend which Forbes did nothing special on. White hit a transition three (nothing to do with Forbes). Rudy Gay hit a quick 3.

And then Forbes refused to shoot the pull-up after the great defense from White.

But the spacing presence of Forbes didn't impact the +/- other than a suspect defender coming off a sprained ankle Doncic fearing the three.

Forbes did brick his 2 threes in the final 4:35.

Go through the rest of the game and I'm sure a viewer could break down exactly how Forbes and Marco were not the reason they had positive boxscores. If Doncic hits his free throws and White and Gay miss their threes, and Forbes is only +4, is that because Forbes was 8 points worse? No.

Even the Forbes defense on Hardaway that resulted in a turnover ... That was with Murray denial on Doncic and White on Finney-Smith. If that was Mills or Marco on Doncic or Finney-Smith, I don't know if Hardaway keeps it.

THEN with Murray subbed back in at the Forbes free throw, it's Murray denial on Doncic and White almost creates the turnover on Finney-Smith from behind but DeRozan can't get to it. Then the Doncic foul on the out-of-bounds play.

But even on those two defensive possessions, Murray and White did a good job of keeping the Spurs in play.

I'll roll with Murray-White easily, they'll get better together the more time they play together.

Reminds me of people strangely declaring the Splitter and Tim Duncan couldn't ever be on the court at the same time, because when Pop finally put them on court together while losing in the playoffs against Memphis in tiny sample sizes, they didn't have perfect chemistry. Because in Splitter's first ever playoff game in game 4, first game in 10 days, him being asked to start the 3rd quarter with Duncan, they were -6 in 3 minutes or something dumb like that. Splitter would later start 40 playoff games next to Duncan.

I appreciate the long and detailed reply. Thanks.
No need to persuade me how damaging Forbes is. I'm saying that myself after most games and would limit him to 10-15 minutes off the bench. And I want Lonnie out there as much as the next guy.
It's just I can't see Murray-White-Derozan working in any cir stances, neither theoretically nor practically. Nobody's afraid of them on the three point line.
I think Derozan-Murray escpecially fit awfully and this unnatural fit is one of the reasons we regressed so much from last season. I would trade Derozan away for nothing right now but I guess Spurs don't do it midseason

[objective]

I appreciate the long and detailed reply. Thanks.
No need to persuade me how damaging Forbes is. I'm saying that myself after most games and would limit him to 10-15 minutes off the bench. And I want Lonnie out there as much as the next guy.
It's just I can't see Murray-White-Derozan working in any cir stances, neither theoretically nor practically. Nobody's afraid of them on the three point line.
I think Derozan-Murray escpecially fit awfully and this unnatural fit is one of the reasons we regressed so much from last season. I would trade Derozan away for nothing right now but I guess Spurs don't do it midseason

I don't love DeRozan either, but I don't factor in his badness with how Murray and White go together.

Some of the issues in that 3 minutes was just Murray decision making. Forbes/DeRozan/Walker/Marco don't fix that, that's something Murray has to improve. The turnover on the pass to Aldridge was on Murray. And if Murray feels to crowded by White and his man being in the corner, then he needs to be the point guard and direct White the out of there.

When he has everything clear for an Aldridge postup, he should get the ball to him instead of driving aimlessly and dumping it to Rudy Gay and hoping he'll make a play.

White needs to be and stay aggressive, whether it's shooting threes or driving. He has to shoot. Period.

White and Murray, flaws and all, I believe are two of the Spurs best players. Now some may say, 2 of the top 5, others might say 2 of the top 7 ... doesn't matter. The best players have to play, flaws and all. They should not be combining for what is usually under 48 minutes a game. Against the Mavs was a minor miracle, 52 minutes in regulation. And the only way for them to play more than 48 a game is to play together. Better to get the chemistry sorted out yesterday than tomorrow. And if it goes terribly wrong, better to trade White when he has enough years on his rookie deal to still give peak value back in return.

[vavvi]

I don't love DeRozan either, but I don't factor in his badness with how Murray and White go together.

Some of the issues in that 3 minutes was just Murray decision making. Forbes/DeRozan/Walker/Marco don't fix that, that's something Murray has to improve. The turnover on the pass to Aldridge was on Murray. And if Murray feels to crowded by White and his man being in the corner, then he needs to be the point guard and direct White the out of there.

When he has everything clear for an Aldridge postup, he should get the ball to him instead of driving aimlessly and dumping it to Rudy Gay and hoping he'll make a play.

White needs to be and stay aggressive, whether it's shooting threes or driving. He has to shoot. Period.

White and Murray, flaws and all, I believe are two of the Spurs best players. Now some may say, 2 of the top 5, others might say 2 of the top 7 ... doesn't matter. The best players have to play, flaws and all. They should not be combining for what is usually under 48 minutes a game. Against the Mavs was a minor miracle, 52 minutes in regulation. And the only way for them to play more than 48 a game is to play together. Better to get the chemistry sorted out yesterday than tomorrow. And if it goes terribly wrong, better to trade White when he has enough years on his rookie deal to still give peak value back in return.

I get your reasoning but I think it's wrong to not consider Derozan like he's not there. Maybe the main problem of that 3 minutes stretch was Murray decision making but still I can't see it work unless there's no Derozan. Imagine White with the ball and Murray AND Derozan stretching. Nobody will be even near them, any opponent is happy letting Derozan and Murray launch as many open threes as possible. Their skillsets just don't compliment each other.

Maybe the way to go is subbing Murray early for White and then playing Murray-White with Derozan on the bench. The takeaway is I get Pop's wanting his pets out there. Can't say the same about not playing Lonnie. After his breakout game that seems borderline crazy.

[objective]

I get your reasoning but I think it's wrong to not consider Derozan like he's not there. Maybe the main problem of that 3 minutes stretch was Murray decision making but still I can't see it work unless there's no Derozan. Imagine White with the ball and Murray AND Derozan stretching. Nobody will be even near them, any opponent is happy letting Derozan and Murray launch as many open threes as possible. Their skillsets just don't compliment each other.

Maybe the way to go is subbing Murray early for White and then playing Murray-White with Derozan on the bench. The takeaway is I get Pop's wanting his pets out there. Can't say the same about not playing Lonnie. After his breakout game that seems borderline crazy.

My response to having DeRozan ill-fitting with Murray and White would be this:

the 3-Man lineups of various starters of Murray-Forbes-DeRozan and White-Forbes-DeRozan have combined for 590 minutes (329 and 261), and net ratings of -6.6 and -10.7

White-Murray-DeRozan has combined for 9 minutes, and in that useless sample size is +. And strangely, it's a monster plus with Marco or Forbes in for DeRozan. I don't think it's necessarily about the third player, I think it's the terror of Murray and White defensively, even with White looking injured so much and Murray on the mend from missing a season.

DeRozan may throw a wrench into things in a serious way, but not playing Murray and White together hasn't exactly worked out, and there's about 30 games and almost 600 minutes to show that.

[Sugus]

My response to having DeRozan ill-fitting with Murray and White would be this:

the 3-Man lineups of various starters of Murray-Forbes-DeRozan and White-Forbes-DeRozan have combined for 590 minutes (329 and 261), and net ratings of -6.6 and -10.7

White-Murray-DeRozan has combined for 9 minutes, and in that useless sample size is +. And strangely, it's a monster plus with Marco or Forbes in for DeRozan. I don't think it's necessarily about the third player, I think it's the terror of Murray and White defensively, even with White looking injured so much and Murray on the mend from missing a season.

DeRozan may throw a wrench into things in a serious way, but not playing Murray and White together hasn't exactly worked out, and there's about 30 games and almost 600 minutes to show that.

Exactly. Forbes and DeRozan are the problems... But then again we won't see a true DJ-White backcourt this season unless DD is shipped out. It's simple - DD is a "star" so you have to start him, and a White-DJ backcourt necessarily has to have DD at the 3, which he sucks at especially on defense. He takes touches away from both other guards, lessening their effectiveness, and in turn his trash defense forces them to overhelp for him. You place Lonnie at the 3, and all these problems are solved - he's a lengthy and willing defender (from the little we've seen at least), a capable and smart shooter, doesn't ball hog and has range, which makes White and especially DJs lives easier as he can stretch the floor.

People criticizing the White-DJ pairing only based on what we've seen so far are clueless, tbh. But then again Pop hasn't put any player in a position to succeed this season.

[TDomination]

My response to having DeRozan ill-fitting with Murray and White would be this:

the 3-Man lineups of various starters of Murray-Forbes-DeRozan and White-Forbes-DeRozan have combined for 590 minutes (329 and 261), and net ratings of -6.6 and -10.7

White-Murray-DeRozan has combined for 9 minutes, and in that useless sample size is +. And strangely, it's a monster plus with Marco or Forbes in for DeRozan. I don't think it's necessarily about the third player, I think it's the terror of Murray and White defensively, even with White looking injured so much and Murray on the mend from missing a season.

DeRozan may throw a wrench into things in a serious way, but not playing Murray and White together hasn't exactly worked out, and there's about 30 games and almost 600 minutes to show that.

Which just seems stupid that Forbes continues to start despite the obvious struggles.

We used to call Pop mad scientist Pop because he loved tinkering with the lineups. And that was when we had great all star players and awesome role players. Now that we have mediocre all star players and mediocre role players he doesn't want to change the lineups? At least not in the way that seems obvious to everyone. I mean what happened to that. It would be a no brainer at this point to do something different because what you are doing is not working. We are not a top 5 seed, our guys don't need more time to let them gel. No...we suck. And we will continue to suck until something changes. Do something different man.

You already tried your forbes/derozan/marco lineups or whatever. Now go the other way. Lets focus on defense and let the offense come where it may. If we can only muster up 90 ppg but we clamp down on D and only allow 95 then thats great! at least we'll have the #1 D in the league. We'll be last in offense but at least we have an iden y and have something we can lean on.

[tholdren]

Exactly. Forbes and DeRozan are the problems... But then again we won't see a true DJ-White backcourt this season unless DD is shipped out. It's simple - DD is a "star" so you have to start him, and a White-DJ backcourt necessarily has to have DD at the 3, which he sucks at especially on defense. He takes touches away from both other guards, lessening their effectiveness, and in turn his trash defense forces them to overhelp for him. You place Lonnie at the 3, and all these problems are solved - he's a lengthy and willing defender (from the little we've seen at least), a capable and smart shooter, doesn't ball hog and has range, which makes White and especially DJs lives easier as he can stretch the floor.

People criticizing the White-DJ pairing only based on what we've seen so far are clueless, tbh. But then again Pop hasn't put any player in a position to succeed this season.

Lol. Murray cant do anything, but get a lucky fast break dunk. But if that's what you want from a pg on a winning team, have at it

[Leetonidas]

Post quotes so I can lmao, tbh.

Lol gimme a sec I'll find some from the game thread yesterday

[Leetonidas]

someone asks:
Was Walker hurt at the beginning of the year or something? Why he is only averaging 10 mpg?
sniffer response:

Has to earn his minutes. If he doesn't do what coaches need to see - consistent effort especially on D as he has a tendency to disappear, pick his spots with effort - then it's reflected in his minutes. He can score any time he wants, really, but his athleticism is a known strength. Showing growth in areas less his strengths - defense, facilitating - means more minutes.

In fairness, Beli after completely sucking the firtst ten games or so, has now shot his way back to more minutes - highest 3%.

when someone points out beli is garbage on defense, es about Pops obvious pecking order, and lonnie has clearly earned more playing time than marco:

hat's ok if fans feel that way, but this is about the long view. ALL rookies HAVE to EARN their minutes. What I said wasn't my opinion but per Pop interview. We all know what Beli is -- and isn't. When Beli wasn't hitting his shots, he got benched twice (only player in regular rotation) and was playing career lows in minutes. He isn't going to wow anybody with his D. He's out there for his role of off-ball movement and quick shots. And now he's found his shot more to be our best 3% shooter again.

On the other hand, if Lonnie isn't developing what we need from him, he will sit. It's just the only way to earn minutes.

It's a Catch-22 with fans as some want to win but do so with the young players who are frankly way too inconsistent to do so.

It's really not a pecking order (though it may have to do with trust and knowing the system), it has far more to do with nobody skipping steps.

Lonnie will get his chance to shine. But when he does he has to be ready with all the facets of the game the coaches are expecting him to develop. If we don't develop our young guys on both ends, they end up as the more one-dimensional players nobody likes to see out there.

when someone asks how tf is lonnie supposed to shine when Pop plays mindgames and doesnt let him play and learn:

That's ok I really get the frustration, more so with Bryn when he's 'handling' the ball - I feel this starting 2 role is too big for him.

I don't think it's a matter of Pop trying to be anything other than what he's been, it's just that when we aren't winning as easily the development of younger players either becomes something fans more naturally gravitate to or focus on. As the latter happens, they want to speed up the process that grew and developed so many other players before them. Just because we are not playing well is no reason to speed up and skip steps of development - it's how we are going to get better in the future.

Disagree about nobody wanting to play here because of it - DJ, Derrick, Bryn, Jakob as the latest group have all attested to the value of our development, and DJ re-signed.

It's not about sitting after each mistake. Lonnie HAS been getting more playing time, and after Pop talks with him after errors, he has put him back out. It's how Lonnie is learning, too. We WILL need him once the place holders are not on the team. At that time, he has to be as ready as he can be. It's his job to play so well and show what coaches need to see and make Pop play him. If we shortchange the development, we are doing him a disservice in sending the message that it doesn't apply to him.


He'll get his chance. We need to be patient. Lonnie is

when someone asks why tf dont the spurs rebuild already:

This IS the rebuild, Spurs style. We're growing the young guys as the older vets teach and are place holders until younger guys are ready.

when someone points out the Spurs are trash and this season is evidence of their demise:

^ LOL you wish, man. Transition, yes. But these overblown comments always come in losses, and utter silence - like when we won by 30 last game.

We happened to ahve transition from the Big 3 to #2 but, well...

But we actually have a glut of guards coming up in the system who are fare more two-way and D oriented. Just need more developing, so DeMar is a place holder. We also have a young 4 in the system with a broad skill set in development for when LMA is no longer with us.

We'll be fine.

this is just in one thread.... im sure i can find plenty more. this guy is such a ing sniffer got : "no one was saying anything when we flukishly shot an ATG TS% against a bottom feeding Grizzly team!"

[FkLA]

That guy disgusts me, tbh.