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Garnett averaged more points in conference semis, conference finals and league finals than in the first round.
yes, garnett did just fine for his level of ability. no one questioned that. and i personally dont agree with those who consider him a choker. why would i consider him a choker when hes not a truly great scorer to begin with?
kg on his own is an all-time great basketball player, with a great all-around game. the problem here is when you want to compare him to someone who's career accomplishments were more impressive, was a superior scorer, was superior in the clutch, was a superior leader, and has the results to back it all up.
Garnett averaged more points in conference semis, conference finals and league finals than in the first round.
Where in that post did I mention anything about offensive skillsets? I said "similar style" meaning that both were defensive minded PF's that weren't "scorers" per se. They would get their 20 a game because they were that good, but they were more all around players than just pure scorers ala Dirk.
yes, garnett did just fine for his level of ability. no one questioned that. and i personally dont agree with those who consider him a choker. why would i consider him a choker when hes not a truly great scorer to begin with?
I'm guessing you mean Duncan here.kg on his own is an all-time great basketball player, with a great all-around game. the problem here is when you want to compare him to someone who's career accomplishments were more impressive, was a superior scorer, was superior in the clutch, was a superior leader, and has the results to back it all up.
No my point is that Garnett lost in the first round 7 straight years. Went to the WCF once and missed the playoffs 3 straight years all in his prime. This didn’t happen to Dirk. It didn’t happen to Tim. It didn’t happen to Robinson. It didn’t happen to any of his contemporaries that he’s compared to. My other point is that ty teammates isn’t a good enough excuse for Garnett to have failed so badly as a Timberwolves. Duncan made it to the second round with Antonio Daniels as the starting PG and Robinson averaging 4 points a game. His 2003 team blows away any argument that having ty teammates is a good enough excuse to absolve KG’s failure. Dirk made it to the Finals with ty teammates. Dampier was his starting center along with Harris as his PG. Robinson has Del Negro and AJ and made it to the WCF. Blaming KG’s teammates as the sole reason for why they failed and why he didn’t overcome us asinine. Just means he wasn’t as good as his peers that he’s placed in company with.Your entire argument is based on the idea that Garnett wasn't the go to guy in the clutch to try and sell the narrative that he wasn't clearly the Celtics' best player in 2008, and I'm the one getting on with zero evidence?
That's rich son. Even the other guys that are on the Dirk > KG side of the discussion agreed that Garnett was the Celtics' best player in 2008. You know who else agrees with this? The MVP voting list of that year that had Garnett at 3rd in the entire ing league.
Look, you can think Dirk > KG all you want. It's pretty much a wash in my book. But don't come here trying to act like I'm not providing sound evidence while you come up with primary school level arguments like "but he doesn't take the last shot
Your entire argument is based on the idea that Garnett wasn't the go to guy in the clutch to try and sell the narrative that he wasn't clearly the Celtics' best player in 2008, and I'm the one getting on with zero evidence?
That's rich son. Even the other guys that are on the Dirk > KG side of the discussion agreed that Garnett was the Celtics' best player in 2008. You know who else agrees with this? The MVP voting list of that year that had Garnett at 3rd in the entire ing league.
Look, you can think Dirk > KG all you want. It's pretty much a wash in my book. But don't come here trying to act like I'm not providing sound evidence while you come up with primary school level arguments like "Just bc you say bull doesn’t make it true. He averaged 18 ppg in the finals in 08 and 15 ppg in ‘10. He averaged 20 points per game in the first round his 7 straight exits. I mean seriously you should get an award for how wrong a person can be in one argumentGarnett averaged more points in conference semis, conference finals and league finals than in the first round.
Also in 2008 he averaged 21 points per game in Round 1 vs Atlanta. Which is definitely less than 18 ppg he averaged in the finals and the 19 ppg he averaged in the semis
Okay, my bad for leaving Danny Ainge off the list.
Damn, this dude did one year of minor league baseball and three years of major league baseball all while playing college basketball for four years!
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb...y-ainge-1.html
https://www.baseball-reference.com/p...ingeda01.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/r...d=ainge-001dan
Meh.
Either way Danny obviously sacrificed numbers and all star selections for the betterment of the team.
Even if he did shoot the C's out of the 85 Finals.
you were comparing their ability to be clutch and show up for the playoffs. comparable numbers don't equate to a comparable presence. timmy and dirk presences >>> kgs presence
so clever
Just bc you say bull doesn’t make it true. He averaged 18 ppg in the finals in 08 and 15 ppg in ‘10. He averaged 20 points per game in the first round his 7 straight exits. I mean seriously you should get an award for how wrong a person can be in one argument
Also in 2008 he averaged 21 points per game in Round 1 vs Atlanta. Which is definitely less than 18 ppg he averaged in the finals and the 19 ppg he averaged in the semis
like if he just prefers kg personally, that's one thing
but for him to state it as a fact that kg>dirk and then to claim he has proof but actually doesn't and instead resorts to making up lies?
https://backpicks.com/2018/02/26/bac...dirk-nowitzki/
https://backpicks.com/2018/03/19/bac...kevin-garnett/
Great analysis for both players
Dude, Garnett averages 18.2 ppg in the playoffs for his career. On the conference semis, conference finals and NBA finals he averages 18.6 ppg combined. You do the remaining math.Just bc you say bull doesn’t make it true. He averaged 18 ppg in the finals in 08 and 15 ppg in ‘10. He averaged 20 points per game in the first round his 7 straight exits. I mean seriously you should get an award for how wrong a person can be in one argument
Also in 2008 he averaged 21 points per game in Round 1 vs Atlanta. Which is definitely less than 18 ppg he averaged in the finals and the 19 ppg he averaged in the semis
Why? Because they had better teams and won more often? Sports is a world determined by cir stances and luck. I compared Garnett's numbers to Duncan's just to prove that, individually, Garnett did just as good as anyone. What's the difference? Team success. And, sorry to break it to you, but that's pretty much on team talent. There's only so much an individual can do.
Dumb, mind numbing narratives like calling a player a choker just because his team doesn't win, despite him doing good individually, should be over by 2020.
It's funny how untill 2010 Dirk was a soft jump shooting choker, but as soon as he got a great team around him he suddenly wasn't a choker anymore. Maybe he was never a choker and just didn't have good enough teams to go all the way.
Same with Garnett, years of losing early in the playoffs. As soon as he got some help around him, he's suddenly good enough to be the leading man on a championship team. Damn, Garnett must have done some serious soul searching and jedi level training in the 2007 offseason to go from 1st round fodder to championship leader, tbh.
With the re ed I read on this thread I thought you might be referring to Dirk for a minutes.so clever
Last edited by DAF86; 06-24-2020 at 05:33 AM.
Son, you should have stayed off his wagon as soon as you started reading arbitray qualifiers like "for his first 7 seasons" and "round 1 vs Atlanta".
like if he just prefers kg personally, that's one thing
but for him to state it as a fact that kg>dirk and then to claim he has proof but actually doesn't and instead resorts to making up lies?
Last edited by DAF86; 06-24-2020 at 05:34 AM.
Hey, KobesAchilles and Neo, you wanted "evidence", "stats" and "analysis"? Here you have the mother of all "evidences", "stats" and "analysis". It has Garnett a full 10 positions higher than Dirk. You can sign in and tell that dude how he just keeps getting on and backs up his stuff with zero evidence, and how KG wasn't really that good because he wasn't "clutch", tbh.
The premise and justification of the list:
https://backpicks.com/2017/12/11/the...n-nba-history/What This List Is Not
This list will not make traditional “arguments” for players. I won’t attempt to balance Kobe’s championships without Shaq, nor do I care about accolades like All-Star teams or the number of Hall of Fame teammates someone played with. I also don’t care how many rings a player won; the very thing I’m trying to tease out is who provided the most lift. Sometimes that lift is good enough to win, sometimes it’s not.
There are no time machines either — it’s not about how players would do today if transported into the past or future. It’s about the impact each had in his own time over the course of a career.
What This List Is
This list also goes far beyond the box score — indeed, the box score is merely a reference for quantifying tendencies — so if you’re used to citing points per game and Win Shares, this will be a bit different.
Instead, this is a career-value, or CORP list; it ranks the players who have provided the largest increase in the odds of a team winning championships over the course of their careers. This means that having great Finals moments or winning the hearts of fans with innovative passes is irrelevant. You can make a great list with those criteria, but that’s not what this exercise is intended to be.
This list is really about evaluating players based on “goodness,” not merely situational value.
So, basically, it just takes bias and cir stances out of the way and just focuses on a player's actual impact on a basketball court. You can agree or not, but it doesn't get much more clinical than that, tbh.
Quite an interesting site, tbh. Weird that I didn't heard about it 'till now.
Last edited by DAF86; 06-24-2020 at 06:14 AM.
And would you believe it? Looking around on that page I saw this excerpt about Duncan and Garnett in the clutch:
https://elgee35.wordpress.com/tag/manu-ginobili/A criticism often volleyed toward Kevin Garnett is his reluctance to take over games down the stretch. Of course, most bigs are hampered by this. And, with regards to his chief rival, Tim Duncan, KG’s clutch performance is quite similar. He’s nearly identical with TD over the last 8+ seasons, and outperformed him in his 3-year peak. Garnett actually shot it 21% more in his three-year peak (18.0 FGA’s per 36, 618 minute sample) than Duncan did in his (14.9 FGA’s per 36, 473 minute sample).
Still, in this generation it seems no big is going to rival a perimeter player in late-game performance.
But I'm sure the metrics experts here will find a way to explain why these analyses are and their eye tests are a better parameter.
You continue to apply narratives to me that I don't even claim or believe in. I never said kg is a choker, and I think it's a heavily overused label for many players. I simply said kg doesn't have the same level of scoring skills that guys like Dirk and Timmy have. and it shows come playoff time when you have to compete against the best defenses giving full effort every night
a big difference than regular seasons when you are facing teams that either completely suck defensively, don't care as much bc it's regular season, or both.
I fully agree that to an extent you can't always blame lack of team success on a single player, there's only so much he can do. but kg also had some pretty good teams that underachieved as well. and there were times that as the leader and best player on the team, his shortcomings at scoring were part of the reason his teams couldn't get over the hump. defenses simply didn't fear him the way they feared guys like dirk and timmy. I don't really consider it a fault, as much as it simply is something he wasn't capable of doing. ranking him lower than dirk isn't due to faults of kg, as opposed to simply having less capability of affecting the game the way dirk did. dirk literally transformed basketball. kg was basically a lesser version of hakeem.
truth is, kg was generally not on the level of a postseason performer that dirk was.
and it's funny how you want to say that the choker label is unfair to use (despite me never once using that label for kg), then conveniently want to apply it to dirk every chance you get
oh and then you want to criticize people for using what you referred to as the "eye test" but you conveniently want to use the eye test to claim that kg had no good teammates ever in minny, while dirk always was just surrounded by good talent. and then you want to conveniently ignore that kg won a championship with two hof teammates in their primes, while dirk won with a team that had no fellow allstars, nor a single player in the prime of their careers except maybe tyson.
i really couldn't care less if you simply prefer kg (I mean you consider manu one tier below MJ, LeBron and Timmy for goodness sake) I just don't get your inconsistent arguments. you keep jumping all over the place, making stuff up, and picking and choosing.
Last edited by Neo.; 06-24-2020 at 10:08 AM.
I mean those are his prime years. I was only counting his prime years and specifically his first round playoff numbers to his Finals numbers. You do realize that playoff numbers include his Nets years which I didn’t count bc then I would just say hey he averaged 6 points in the playoffs one season. Lol dirk never did. And then the response would be yeah when he’s out of his prime and on the Nets. So be careful if you want those numbers included.
Also and here’s a shocker, his playoff career numbers include his lower Finals numbers which lowers his playoff ppg average. And where THE did you see him average 18.6 points a game in the finals when he averaged less than that in 2008 and 15 ppg in 2010? 18+15=33. 33/2 is 16.5 ppg in the Finals. Like I said earlier just bc you say bull doesn’t make it true. Or do you not count his 2010 Finals for some reason but do include his Nets years?
to add to it, including his decrepit brooklyn season, it appears that his averages in the 2nd 3rd and 4th rounds combined actually are 17.9, not 18.6 as he claims
so since his career playoff average is 18.2, and his averages in rounds 2/3/4 are 17.9, that must mean his first round average is... well we can let him "do the remaining math"
Dirk was 25/10, career, in the postseason. Karl Malone and Hakeem are the only other guys I know of to do that for the duration of a career. He always elevated his level of play in the postseason...lone exception being 07 when Nellie bombed on him
And I love KG...but that 08 C's team is one of the best I have seen. Towering over the 2011 Mavs in terms of talent. Just about anybody will look good playing next to Allen/Pierce/impactful Rondo and solid role players like Posey and Brown.
Last edited by Dirks_Finale; 06-24-2020 at 03:32 PM.
The funny thing about Garnett-Nowitzki is this wasn't even considered a serious debate until they were past their primes and then all of a sudden people retroactively leaned Nowitzki.
Blame recency bias and the increasing tendency to apply modern basketball ideology ("closer") to yesteryear.
Sure, Garnett probably couldn't have pulled an '11 Nowitzki, but let's not make him out to be Mutombo, Wallace, Gobert, etc. either. There's a big difference between having a style suited to being an offensive hub for a championship caliber team and that and he veered far closer to the former than the latter.
I agree with the sentiment, but despite Garnett's slightly superior regular season catch all metrics, what set Duncan apart was his low post game made him a championship caliber offensive hub, while Garnett's was always more suited to being complimentary at that level.
They were essentially Robinson-Olajuwon II.
im pretty sure not one person here remotely suggested that whatsoever
The point is, if the argument for Nowitzki is he did the most important thing better, realize he didn't do it better by enough to supersede the massive gap in their all around games.
in your opinion perhaps
but he did something kg never did - put a team on his back and carry them to a championship. so perhaps he did do it better more than enough to supersede the gap in their all around games
its hard to argue against actual results
You're making the common mistake people make in debates, which is acting as if the cir stances were the same.
When was Garnett ever in position to do what Nowitzki did in '11? '04 was the closest, but Cassell, their second best player, essentially missed the back half the WCF.
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