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Show me the stats that bear that out.
It's not more leeway. White has simply proven to be the far better player so far. Why is that so hard to see for you?
Do you think we, Spurs fans, prefer White over Murray just because of his face or something? Or maybe, just maybe, contribution to the team has something to do with it?
Show me the stats that bear that out.
that‘s such a dumb take. If you watch the games you can clearly see the improvements.
White - OBPM: 0.4 / DBPM: 0.7 / BPM: 1.1 / VORP: 2.8
Murray - OBPM: -1.5 / DBPM: 1.4 / BPM: -0.1 / VORP: 1.9
I like White and I like Murray and want them both to succeed, but it's definitely true that ST gives Murray a way shorter leish. Murray has improved a lot after that devastating injury he had and let's not forget he was drafted much younger. He was the same age last season as White's rookie season. Murray is unlikely to be an all star but theoretically he's a perfect fit as a defensive PG who's improving his shooting. His contract also isn't as bad as some people would have you believe.
Um, so that's literally the opposite of what I'm doing. You and I have talked enough to where I don't see how you are unclear on my position. I don't a high bar for Murray. If anything, I set a low bar for Murray and want him to stay under that bar. I want him to stay within a role that I think maximizes his value to a team. He moves outside of that role, and I don't think that's helpful. Him having success in some games doesn't change that belief. Now if he's going to be 18-24 ppg on good efficiency, then what can you do? But I'd rather him get 12-15 on much fewer possessions
I've seen a lot of games where Murray seems like he has taken a step forward, only to take 2 back. I will say that some of these improvements do feel like are here to stay, but easy, let's just take a bit more time. Don't be so Spurstalksy and let's just tone it down with the overreactions.
maybe playmaking wise we will need a larger sample size, but his finishing at the rim has gotten so much better, it’s ridiculous. He’s the most efficient scorer in the paint on the entire team. Gotta give him some credit for that.
80% at the rim while still having trouble putting on weight. If his 3 point shooting normalizes he will hit the TS contract benchmark.
It's not anyone else's fault he is very up and down. We legitimately don't know how he will play next game.
Dude was awesome tonight though for sure.
A lot of STers have short memories, at least when it comes to my takes (and why would anyone keep up with those?). I was the guy who simultaneously argued that Murray should be benched and that SA was lucky to sign him to his extension. This forum has a real problem where they want to trade away bad players but somehow get value for them. The concept of a player being good but also being on the trade block doesn't make sense to folks with that world view. I did and do believe Murray's defense is overrated, but I've never doubted his ability to help a team, and for clubs that fit him like GS and ATL, I've said SA needed to get a high price in a trade. Trying to reduce my view to saying that Murray is a bad player or that he can't learn to hit the shots he takes is disingenuous, and while I don't expect folks to keep a catalog of my takes, it shouldn't be too much to ask to know my views on things I'm getting called out for.
Not all that said, STers with even longer memories know I was also skeptical of Leonard's rise. It wasn't as bad as certain posters claimed, but I thought he'd be more in the Iggy/Horford tier than a superstar. Even when he was clearly good, I still did not like the offense led by him. Truth be told, I still don't like watching Kawhi-led offense, even though he's a way better play-maker now than he was back then. So I've been wrong before, spectacularly, and would love to be wrong in a similar way here. I have my biases and preferences just like everyone else, and I'm usually will to (exhaustingly) go over them to anyone who wants to know about them. I tend not to gloat when I'm right or hide when I'm wrong, and I'm inclined to take the long view on things that are supposed to take time. We'll see where this goes with Murray, Johnson and any of the other young'uns.
Alright, you got me with those numbers but those are a little skewed and need further context when you factor White is 2 years older, came in to the league more NBA ready, and didn't lose a whole year due to injury. You also have to factor the intangibles like leadership and I think Murray has shown to be more of a team leader. And then, if you go a bit further into stats and use Per 36 numbers, they're quite comparable. As far as who has the higher ceiling, that has to go to Murray with White having the higher floor. But I'm not going to devolve and turn this into a White vs. Murray thing. I just think they both need to be treated on an equal playing field from the fans and both given their proper due.
Last edited by SpurPadre; 01-08-2021 at 01:57 AM.
Lol don't get defensive...I singled him out in a thread that's literally about him hahaha
Hes also Mr inconsistency
On another note: this game increased LAs trade value. The center position was at least a push. I personally think the Spurs are a playoff team this year and he ends up staying the whole season, but if not I guarantee you that several GMs took note of this performance.
Chinook is just like the rest of us. A fan with no professional experience with basketball and lots of opinions. He's going to be right sometimes and he's going to be wrong sometimes. Just like the rest of us.
You hate his role ? What role is he playing ? Does that role need to exist ? If it doesn't, what role needs to exist in it's place ?
This whole increase / decrease trade value thing is mostly a myth. Teams that like LMA and would trade for him would do so even if he played poorly, they would just blame his poor play on the spurs. Teams that don't like him are not going to see him play well for x amount of games and then suddenly want to trade for him. They are going to say "we didn't like him for X reason and 40 good games isn't going to change that."
Only when a player goes through a pretty extreme transformation will it really change the perception of the player around the league. Like playing Derozan at the 4 AND him shooting more 3's while taking less shots overall AND having his assist and assist to turnover ratio go up is starting to turn heads, because he spent his career being the opposite of that guy...a ball stopping scorer who scored mostly from the midrange. If Derozan keeps playing like this he WILL generate some interest from teams who would not have wanted him before, due to his entire playstyle changing.
All nba players are capable of good games once in a while. What separates good players from players that are average/below average is consistency.
Also, Dejounte still can't dribble and still doesn't know what to do with the ball unless he's taking it to the basket or taking a shot.
Get these reasonable opinions out of here. I've played pickup ball before so obviously I know what it's like to defend LeBron James.
Really, you can say that about most of the board (that idiot TMCST or whatever the is another example) that wanted him gone after his first full season back recovering from ACL surgery.
I just think ST likes to get down on players (and Pop) for the LOL's or because they assume "someone better is out there."
Really, ing about a 29th pick, coming off a serious injury, when most 29th picks (minus White, Murray & Johnson, who were all selected by SA) have washed out of the league in recent history.
The expectations and what people saw him as never jived with reality.
Wrong, both are pretty "unproven" commodities and neither has truly broken out.
Yes, White is the best amongst the young players, has the best feel for the game, but he was playing like dog (IMO) prior to the NBA Bubble. He was just as disappointing as DeJounte, yet him breaking out in the Bubble made most of ST ignore that fact.
, prior to the Bubble and this early part of the season, I was down and/or disappointed in all the young guards minus Keldon (most unproven)
Yet, I had enough sense in my head not to call them bums, or any other petty name calling cause development/growth is a process. Plus, Pop definitely wasn't putting them in the best position to either improve or fail.
Now, my outlook on all of them has changed and I think all of them can have long, viable careers in the NBA. Consistency, healthy and assertiveness is now the key to one of them "unlocking" some star potential.
If we view ST like we view the general public and we use the happiness index to gauge overall opinion around here, we would find unsurprisingly find that half or more people are not happy. Why are people not happy? It is because of our desires; the more desires we have, the least we are happy. It's been proven statistically that most of our desires, when attained, never give us true fulfillment.
TLDR: It's human nature to feel like there are things outside of our reach that will fill the void in our lives (or in this case, on the Spurs roster)
DJ may be the most oscillating play the Spurs have had in quite some time.
If the kid has a couple bad games....DJ BAD, TRADE HIM! HE'S NOT A POINT GUARD!
Puts together a few good games...PLAYER OF THE FUTURE, HAND HIM THE KEYS!
Let's let the guy get through what is, realistically, his 3rd real season (and 2nd with any real responsibility) and then make an educated guess here.
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