Chinook owes Dejounte an apology.

**Seventyniner** · 01-08-2021

If we view ST like we view the general public and we use the happiness index to gauge overall opinion around here, we would find unsurprisingly find that half or more people are not happy. Why are people not happy? It is because of our desires; the more desires we have, the least we are happy. It's been proven statistically that most of our desires, when attained, never give us true fulfillment.

TLDR: It's human nature to feel like there are things outside of our reach that will fill the void in our lives (or in this case, on the Spurs roster)

I just go with the classic equation Happiness = Reality - Expectations. The ones that are unhappy are the ones whose expectations are not being met. The thing is, the ones they blame (the players/coaches/front office) cannot be held liable for the inflated expectations of an outside party.

**r0drig0lac** · 01-08-2021

Originally Posted by J_Paco

Wrong, both are pretty "unproven" commodities and neither has truly broken out.

Yes, White is the best amongst the young players, has the best feel for the game, but he was playing like dog (IMO) prior to the NBA Bubble. He was just as disappointing as DeJounte, yet him breaking out in the Bubble made most of ST ignore that fact.

exact

**J_Paco** · 01-08-2021

Originally Posted by Dejounte

If we view ST like we view the general public and we use the happiness index to gauge overall opinion around here, we would find unsurprisingly find that half or more people are not happy. Why are people not happy? It is because of our desires; the more desires we have, the least we are happy. It's been proven statistically that most of our desires, when attained, never give us true fulfillment.

TLDR: It's human nature to feel like there are things outside of our reach that will fill the void in our lives (or in this case, on the Spurs roster)

Good point, but you could also wind up like the Bulls, Kings, Suns or Knicks of the league. Pining for stars and going through an endless cycle of coaches, players & general managers.

And I still think DeJounte can do even better when a healthy Derrick is back and rolling. Then he can play an ancillary role to Derrick & DeMar as a playmaker/ballhandler.

**Dejounte** · 01-08-2021

Originally Posted by J_Paco

Good point, but you could also wind up like the Bulls, Kings, Suns or Knicks of the league. Pining for stars and going through an endless cycle of coaches, players & general managers.

And I still think DeJounte can do even better when a healthy Derrick is back and rolling. Then he can play an ancillary role to Derrick & DeMar as a playmaker/ballhandler.

Perspective is lost on these people. It's why you have so much conflict in this world. You're never going to convince everyone is a life lesson I've learned.

**tbdog** · 01-08-2021

I like Chinook's post more than any other poster. He was nearly convincing me that Murray has to go. I felt that his bubble wasn't as good as people thought, mainly as a decision maker and White was clearly the better point. But I also felt that Murray would be a later bloomer. I knew if he just had a dependable 3, he would be at worse Beverly. He is putting it together now. His 3 is now dependable. He has an in-between game that will get better. He is now finishing at the rim. All those other little things will come.

As for the fit, we didn't see enough of White and Murray to just think it will go either way. For whatever reason, Pop didn't use them until the bubble.

**Chinook** · 01-08-2021

Originally Posted by J_Paco

Good point, but you could also wind up like the Bulls, Kings, Suns or Knicks of the league. Pining for stars and going through an endless cycle of coaches, players & general managers.

And I still think DeJounte can do even better when a healthy Derrick is back and rolling. Then he can play an ancillary role to Derrick & DeMar as a playmaker/ballhandler.

The issue is that all of those teams with the exception of the Knicks perhaps have struggled in large part because they get young players who aren't bad, max them out and then give them the keys. That's now how you build a winning team. None of those teams are looking at the current Spurs with envy, though I do think they should. I agree folks should be happier with what we're seeing from the crop of players they currently have. Young guys and older players are all playing well from night to night. I think this might by my favorite team since 2017-2018. But that doesn't mean that we should look at Murray and White and think the team is in a better position than SAC with Fox, PHX with Booker/Ayton or even CHI with Lavine/Markkennen.

**DeRozan m8** · 01-08-2021

Originally Posted by Dejounte

Perspective is lost on these people. It's why you have so much conflict in this world. You're never going to convince everyone is a life lesson I've learned.

Originally Posted by J_Paco

Good point, but you could also wind up like the Bulls, Kings, Suns or Knicks of the league. Pining for stars and going through an endless cycle of coaches, players & general managers.

And I still think DeJounte can do even better when a healthy Derrick is back and rolling. Then he can play an ancillary role to Derrick & DeMar as a playmaker/ballhandler.

Yeah you make a good point.

Once Jordan and Co left, the Bulls have been nothing....

Timmy is our Jordan....
Manu and Parker the Co...

**Down Under** · 01-08-2021

I want to see Murray play with DD & White - 2 consistent shot creators, where he doesn't have to initiate much himself. I like Murray in transition, as a pullup shooter, spot up shooter & attacking closeouts. But it's hard to see him ever being a half court initiator.

**rankingtear** · 01-09-2021

Originally Posted by Chinook

A lot of STers have short memories, at least when it comes to my takes (and why would anyone keep up with those?). I was the guy who simultaneously argued that Murray should be benched and that SA was lucky to sign him to his extension. This forum has a real problem where they want to trade away bad players but somehow get value for them. The concept of a player being good but also being on the trade block doesn't make sense to folks with that world view. I did and do believe Murray's defense is overrated, but I've never doubted his ability to help a team, and for clubs that fit him like GS and ATL, I've said SA needed to get a high price in a trade. Trying to reduce my view to saying that Murray is a bad player or that he can't learn to hit the shots he takes is disingenuous, and while I don't expect folks to keep a catalog of my takes, it shouldn't be too much to ask to know my views on things I'm getting called out for.

Not all that said, STers with even longer memories know I was also skeptical of Leonard's rise. It wasn't as bad as certain posters claimed, but I thought he'd be more in the Iggy/Horford tier than a superstar. Even when he was clearly good, I still did not like the offense led by him. Truth be told, I still don't like watching Kawhi-led offense, even though he's a way better play-maker now than he was back then. So I've been wrong before, spectacularly, and would love to be wrong in a similar way here. I have my biases and preferences just like everyone else, and I'm usually will to (exhaustingly) go over them to anyone who wants to know about them. I tend not to gloat when I'm right or hide when I'm wrong, and I'm inclined to take the long view on things that are supposed to take time. We'll see where this goes with Murray, Johnson and any of the other young'uns.

Originally Posted by Chinook

I've talked about why I think Walker is a better candidate to keep that Murray in a lot of places, even in this thread, I think. A short rehash is that Murray doesn't really have skills that win basketball games besides rebounding. He's not a good shooter, an overrated defender, a horrible driver and facilitator. He's an energy player, and his first year-and-a-half in the league he played that role pretty well. But he basically developed really badly and picked up relatively useless skills like a mid-range pull-up rather than a reliable set-shot from three. It makes it so his only path to build on his skills is to dominate the ball, and he's just not good at it.

**Chinook** · 01-09-2021

Originally Posted by Chinook

But the reason they should look to trade Murray is because he's the most expendable and the team has needs, not because he sucks and people don't want to keep looking at him.

Originally Posted by Chinook

People need to recalibrate what it means to trade a player. It's not a punishment. You don't trade bad players. You trade to get something, not to get rid of something.

Originally Posted by Chinook

It's crazy how much ST has swung on Murray. There was a time when I was dying on a hill of "Murray's defense is overrated". I went back and read through some of those threads just now. It was an ocean of people saying he was a mini-Kawhi. It was exhausting at the time, but I do feel vindicated somewhat. I wish I'd been wrong though. As I've said before, the biggest issue is Murray's at ude. His production is overrated, but it's still fine and could be really good with the right role. But he has never seemed willing to do that, even when he was a rookie. He always seemed to think success would just fall to him. Like sure, he'd "work" and reach that level on his own, but it'd be like a Rocky montage where he would inevitably over the course of some pre-determined steps get to the top of that staircase.

But no, he's been too meta about this from the start. He was talking about how he had graduated from the d-league after his first true call-up. He kept framing his benchings as a process young players go through. He always focused on the flashy things rather than the fundamental things. And it sucks. I wish he was right and was basically De'Aaron Fox or SGA right now. I wish his swagger and loyalty were the start of a movement. But he's not, and it's not, and they won't be. He needs a fresh start, hopefully from a place that values him and has something SA wants. Atlanta is a good option, as is GS. I don't really think Detroit is, but they might be able to use him. The Spurs need to move on, because it seems like the relationship is on the verge of turning cancerous. He's totally a wolf held by the ears right now.

Lilterally the three quotes from me immediately proceeding the one you pulled up, in their full context. So to suggest that I meant he didn't have the ability to help a team is wrong.

**rankingtear** · 01-09-2021

Watched all games and noticed that the start of 2nd and 4th quarter lineups wins us the games. Looked it up and it has a Net Rating of 47.6 almost double the Derozan led one at 27.6. Pretty impactful rebounding for Murray.

**poopbox** · 01-09-2021

Chinook in here arguing with his own post about Murray pretty much sums up spurstalk in a nuts

**Sugus** · 01-09-2021

Originally Posted by Dejounte

If we view ST like we view the general public and we use the happiness index to gauge overall opinion around here, we would find unsurprisingly find that half or more people are not happy. Why are people not happy? It is because of our desires; the more desires we have, the least we are happy. It's been proven statistically that most of our desires, when attained, never give us true fulfillment.

TLDR: It's human nature to feel like there are things outside of our reach that will fill the void in our lives (or in this case, on the Spurs roster)

Have you ever watched Evangelion, my guy, by any chance? You're on some psychological analysis here, lmao

**Obi Juan Kenobi** · 01-09-2021

I'd like to chime in on this since we're having a psychological discussion here...

When the Spurs won their most recent le in 2014, I of course was excited af as I'm sure here on the board was (or at least I hope so). I was soaking everything in from the Game 5 victory: the highlights, the analyst remarks, the presenting of the Larry O'Brien and that iconic photo of the Spurs players cloaked in their national flags...all good stuff...However, once the special coverage of the Spurs clinching victory that night was over and it went back to regular programming, a sense of emptiness began to overtake me. The 2014 season was now officially over, and yes while I thoroughly enjoyed the evening, I couldn't help but still feel that feeling of emptiness since now there was going to be no more Spurs basketball for awhile. Yes, the team had become champions, but the season was still over, a little different than the other 29 teams in the league since our team was the last one standing, but even the season for the champion Spurs was now over...

The point I'm trying to make is that since then, I've learned to not just enjoy the championship itself, but you have to enjoy the journey along the way. Embrace the highs and the lows, the victories and the losses. Its all part of the experience of being a sports fan. Yes, these last few years have been extremely frustrating, but I've still tried to enjoy the good moments in any Spurs game, because they're our team. Enjoy this for what it is, life is way to short to be bitter, angry, or over analytical to the point where you can't even enjoy a wild victory like tonight's game because certain players weren't perfect the way you or some advanced stat metric would say. Enjoy being a fan for what it is...that's my .02

**TheGreatYacht** · 01-09-2021

He's better right now than White ever was.

**Dejounte** · 01-10-2021

Originally Posted by Sugus

Have you ever watched Evangelion, my guy, by any chance? You're on some psychological analysis here, lmao

I have. The last episode left a bad taste in my mouth... though it was the only episode where it didn't have 100% of my attention.

**Sugus** · 01-10-2021

Originally Posted by Dejounte

I have. The last episode left a bad taste in my mouth... though it was the only episode where it didn't have 100% of my attention.

Lol, only the last episode, and not the movie? Yeah, that tv ending was something else. I'm actually surprised to hear a "yes", good my guy

**BackHome** · 01-10-2021

[QUOTE=SpurPadre;10395770]I just don't think there's enough sample size that shows Derrick would be a much better starter to maximize the team's potential. When it comes to leadership qualities, none of young players can match Murray's. He's definitely a leader and you want that in your starting PG.[/QUOTE

OMG Murray is not a PG not hating but he has problems keeping his dribble alive much less breaking people’s ankles and crossing peeps on his way to the basket.