Would you trade Lonnie Walker and Luka Samanic for John Collins?

[The Truth #6]

Because Atlanta could very well trade him by the deadline to get value.

Spurs fans want to gain something without giving up something. This is not a dream world.

It's not hard, guys.

But isn't that how the Spurs FO operates? You seem to be holding fans (granted, many are idiots) to a set of principles the team itself doesn't seem to operate under. I don't see them wanting to trade two of their 1st round picks when they reasonably would rather wait. That's what the Spurs do. They wait. And wait.

[Dejounte]

But isn't that how the Spurs FO operates? You seem to be holding fans (granted, many are idiots) to a set of principles the team itself doesn't seem to operate under. I don't see them wanting to trade two of their 1st round picks when they reasonably would rather wait. That's what the Spurs do. They wait. And wait.

I argue this is a false point. The team does make trades when they feel extremely confident the return will be a net positive. They are just very selective when it comes to this, hence why it is so rare. You just have to look at the George Hill trade for Kawhi.


Like I said, the Spurs are master poker players. It's a matter of how much they view Collins as a major part of their future. With Spurs fans, it's a matter of me asking how badly they want Collins on this team. From half of these responses, it does not seem like they want Collins badly enough.

[LeBowen]

No.

Giving Collins a max in the summer would be an overpay, but I could get behind it.
Giving Collins a max and giving up two young players in the process? No way.

[The Truth #6]

I argue this is a false point. The team does make trades when they feel extremely confident the return will be a net positive. They are just very selective when it comes to this, hence why it is so rare. You just have to look at the George Hill trade for Kawhi. Like I said, the Spurs are master poker players.

I don't think anything you said bolsters your argument. If anything, regarding the Kawhi trade: 1) that was about 7 years ago, and 2) it was a complete anomaly, and 3) that was to draft a player, not trade for someone.

Also, as for being master poker players, I don't see the team at all putting their chips in on John Collins without at least assurances he would resign (which perhaps would be tampering). Again, I think their choice would be to not rush, see how the season plays out, and assess their options in the offseason. I think that's their version of poker: never get fleeced. I think that evidenced itself when they fielded trade offers for Halliburton.

If it was to trade DD or LA, then I could see them doing that.

[KingKev]

I’m not convinced the Spurs even have Collins on their radar. This off season will be focused on re-upping DDR/Patty and adding a few more borderline washed vets while bringing in an unknown euro or guy playing overseas. PATFO is too arrogant to pay a guy like Collins 30m when they think they can home grow something similiar or get a euro scrub who costs 10% the price and does 20% of the job.

[Dejounte]

I don't think anything you said bolsters your argument. If anything, regarding the Kawhi trade: 1) that was about 7 years ago, and 2) it was a complete anomaly, and 3) that was to draft a player, not trade for someone.

Also, as for being master poker players, I don't see the team at all putting their chips in on John Collins without at least assurances he would resign (which perhaps would be tampering). Again, I think their choice would be to not rush, see how the season plays out, and assess their options in the offseason. I think that's their version of poker: never get fleeced. I think that evidenced itself when they fielded trade offers for Halliburton.

If it was to trade DD or LA, then I could see them doing that.

1) that was about 7 years ago,

​Yes, and? They have hardly changed their philosophies.

and 2) it was a complete anomaly,

Can't say it was an anomaly and not explain why.

and 3) that was to draft a player, not trade for someone.

Not sure how this changes anything. A player you bring in during free agency or trade brings the same risk (See: DeMarre Carroll, Marcus Morris) as someone who is an unknown from the draft.

[look_at_g_shred]

1) that was about 7 years ago,

​Yes, and? They have hardly changed their philosophies.

and 2) it was a complete anomaly,

Can't say it was an anomaly and not explain why.

and 3) that was to draft a player, not trade for someone.

Not sure how this changes anything. A player you bring in during free agency or trade brings the same risk (See: DeMarre Carroll, Marcus Morris) as someone who is an unknown from the draft.

It was actually a decade ago. 10 years. June 2011

[The Truth #6]

1) that was about 7 years ago,

​Yes, and? They have hardly changed their philosophies.

and 2) it was a complete anomaly,

Can't say it was an anomaly and not explain why.

and 3) that was to draft a player, not trade for someone.

Not sure how this changes anything. A player you bring in during free agency or trade brings the same risk (See: DeMarre Carroll, Marcus Morris) as someone who is an unknown from the draft.

Good catch. My memory was off. 10 years ago. Perhaps my memory is off again, but I can't remember another trade of that stature since then, which is why I consider it an anomaly, meaning not their normal way of doing things. The takeaway was from this Summer is that the FO simply can not put a trade together/or no one wants to trade with them/or they aren't sure on the rules of how to do it. Being sarcastic, but that was the consensus on the forum.

As for why I think drafting is different, is because they pay less for the player and they know the player is locked up for several years. The scenario with trading for John Collins right now doesn't offer that sort of safety, which is what I would think they covet. They trust their development process, and so I think they prefer to draft players and work them up, which is another reason they wouldn't want to give up on Lonnie and Luka already.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

A resounding yes

[poopbox]

Yep. Easier to keep Collins if we trade for him first. Also by virtue of getting Collins Luka becomes useless since we both need them to do the same thing and play the same way, and at least right now collins is the far superior player at doing that.

I also think Lonnie is the least likely to sign a second contract, so this is a no brainer trade

[Atl Spur]

https://www.sportstalkatl.com/hawks-...-trade-target/

Seems like the only trade that makes sense for both teams.

It works in the ESPN trade machine : http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine

Keep in mind, other teams have to get some sort of value back.

Post-trade (before the 2020-2021 season ends):

PG: Murray/ White/ Tre
SG: Vassell/ Mills/ Q
SF: DeMar/ Keldon/ KBD
PF: Collins/ Gay/ Lyles
C: Aldridge/ Poetl/ Eubanks

Way to early give up on them when you don’t have to.

[RD2191]

OP is a huge got.

[Dejounte]

OP is a huge got.

Kiss me then

[KingKev]

OP is a huge got.

Great take. This is a thought provoking and realistic scenario. Grown minds only
please.

[Chinook]

Way to early give up on them when you don’t have to.

This is what's frustrating. The point of this thread is trading for Collins. "Giving up" on Walker or Samanic has nothing to do with it. If you're only willing to trade guys you don't think can help your team, you're never going to be able to get anything. The reality is that SA should only have like two or three guys as unavailable. Who of those guys are on that list is debatable, but everyone else has to be moveable for the right price. Ultimately, the team doesn't have enough talent right now, and they aren't going to be able to just draft that talent or sign it in free agency. Part of rebuilding is making smart trades to improve your long-term position, and while I agree it's debatable about what price is worth it, it's hard to argue that getting a young talented scoring big like Collins isn't a step in the right direction.

This isn't my favorite proposal out there. I'd like to at least see a DeRozan trade if this deal were to happen, since the Spurs can't afford to both play small and have this many mouths to feed in the SL. But there's a ton of value in having Collins' hold and the balance of the cap space to make another couple of moves. The roster could definitely end up looking really good going into next year. I like the odds of them grabbing a bench scorer and back-up bigs in free agency than them snagging a starting four and having everyone develop to be good long-term role-players.

[exstatic]

Because Atlanta could very well trade him by the deadline to get value.

Spurs fans want to gain something without giving up something. This is not a dream world.

It's not hard, guys.

It apparently is. ATL won’t get value, because no one is going all in on a RFA.

[r0drig0lac]

The reality is that SA should only have like two or three guys as unavailable. Who of those guys are on that list is debatable,

agree

[Dejounte]

It apparently is. ATL won’t get value, because no one is going all in on a RFA.

No one? Check the link in the first post. Teams are interested.

[KingKev]

It apparently is. ATL won’t get value, because no one is going all in on a RFA.

Walker and Samanic are peanuts. Moving them for a better chance to sign Collins would be a compe ive offer for a calculated risk. Spurs fans overrate our youth.

[TD 21]

Yeah, but the Hawks wouldn't. I'd try this . . .

To Hawks: Gordon, Bacon
To Magic: DeRozan, Walker IV, Snell
To Spurs: Collins, Fournier, Ennis III

Works as of February 23rd, when both Ennis III and Bacon become eligible.

Then immediately reroute Fournier for either draft capital or an inexpensive, controllable young player.

I haven't done a deep dive in terms of the future cap sheet, but it feels like Walker IV is going to get squeezed. It's difficult to determine his worth (terrible metrics, but still an intriguing talent), but if it's something like $10-12M, that'd be a steep investment when they've already paid Murray and White and seem well on their way to doing so with Johnson and Vassell.

You don't invest in five non stars (maybe Johnson changes that, but they can't count on it) who play similar positions, nor lose assets for nothing. You get out in front of it.

[mo7888]

Yeah, but the Hawks wouldn't. I'd try this . . .

To Hawks: Gordon, Bacon
To Magic: DeRozan, Walker IV, Snell
To Spurs: Collins, Fournier, Ennis III

Works as of February 23rd, when both Ennis III and Bacon become eligible.

Then immediately reroute Fournier for either draft capital or an inexpensive, controllable young player.

I haven't done a deep dive in terms of the future cap sheet, but it feels like Walker IV is going to get squeezed. It's difficult to determine his worth (terrible metrics, but still an intriguing talent), but if it's something like $10-12M, that'd be a steep investment when they've already paid Murray and White and seem well on their way to doing so with Johnson and Vassell.

You don't invest in five non stars (maybe Johnson changes that, but they can't count on it) who play similar positions, nor lose assets for nothing. You get out in front of it.

If our offer to extend Lonnie is 10-12 I would expect him to just play out his contact and enter RFA the following summer (and that may be best for both parties).

[KingKev]

If our offer to extend Lonnie is 10-12 I would expect him to just play out his contact and enter RFA the following summer (and that may be best for both parties).

agree with all of that but 10-12 is fair given his performance NBA career to date. Someone may take the risk to offer more and unlock his potential which I think is a reasonable risk.

[mo7888]

agree with all of that but 10-12 is fair given his performance NBA career to date. Someone may take the risk to offer more and unlock his potential which I think is a reasonable risk.

I agree with you...his production to date doesn't warrant more..

[KingKev]

I agree with you...his production to date doesn't warrant more..

Worth noting the timing of his contract and current roster construction; 3rd in line for a contract after investing in White and Murray with Keldon and Vassel showing promise. Spurs would be less positioned to risk losing him if that wasn’t the case.

[RD2191]

Kiss me then