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Off-topic:
John Collins loves anime.
https://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-fe..._carousel_news
Obi Juan Kenobi
Who would you rank as the top anime villain ever?
Frieza — His character has transcended into hip hop culture despite his villainous ways
Yes
No
One of the closest polls I've seen on this website.
Off-topic:
John Collins loves anime.
https://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-fe..._carousel_news
Obi Juan Kenobi
Who would you rank as the top anime villain ever?
Frieza — His character has transcended into hip hop culture despite his villainous ways
Is Collins offensive production down and playing fewer minutes, yes. Especially during packages with Hunter at 4 or Gallinari in the game when healthy. Trae is NOT passing Collins the ball. All the lobs that Collins got from Trae the last two years are going to Capella. Huerter, Hunter, Goodwin, even Capella will pass to Collins on occasion. But, Trae will not set Collins up on a consistent basis on the offensive end since Collins called Trae out during a film session.
I mean, I'd expect (and prefer) it to be the same here. I would want Collins to get his points within the flow of the offense and not as another LaMarcus Aldridge type who needs his touches.
Hmm. I said no because I didn't think Collins could shoot the 3. Over 40% the last 2 seasons in about 60 games, decent shooting attempts for such a solid inside presence. Looks like he may be more versatile than first thought. I haven't seen enough tape about him to definitively say.
Fake news.
I agree completely. Collins isn't the problem. You see him on the perimeter when Capella sets a screen away. Collins will roll when he screens or works the offense. But when John screens for Trae, Trae isn't even looking for him. Trae will either shoot the long three or go for layups. Anyone else, Trae will pocket pass or lob. I'm surprised the Atlanta coach has let it go on because Trae has been doing it multiple games.
So you think with Collins shooting 58% from two, 41% from three, and playing good defensive, he still wouldn't be the best player on the team?
Just because he's the best player under 30 doesn't mean he wouldn't be better than the older players too. It's just unambiguous that he'd be better than the young guys (meaning the guys who would be on the team long term). Suggesting that it's a bad trade because Walker/Samanic MAY have higher ceilings ignores how good Collins is compared to the prospects on the club at the moment.
I didn't say anything about Walker or Samanic's ceilings. It sounds like you think it's a good idea to use the cap space on a guy who potentially might or might not be as good as DeRozan, to replace DeRozan as the centerpiece?
You didn't, but this thread is bigger than your previous post. My point that you responded to was challenging the idea that trading Walker and Samanic for Collins doesn't make sense because of assumed ceilings. My point was that out of all the young players, Collins is obviously the best. I separated those guys from the "over 30 crowd" because guys like LMA and DMDR are former All-NBA players, and "how good they are" depends on whether they can consistently play at the former levels, not their raw talent. You took issue with that distinction, and I don't really find that specific debate to be interesting. This thread is about trading young players for him, not trading the older guys.
Yeah. DeRozan's really good. I know that disturbs people, but the dude is really, really good at playing basketball. There's a pretty small chance that someone like Anthony Edwards is going to be better than DeRozan, let alone the unassuming prospects the team has. It's fit, at ude and scheme that makes bringing back DeRozan dicey. If he were a 6-9 forward, he'd be an obvious re-sign if he wanted it. I have no qualms about maxing out a guy who might not have DMDR's raw talent but is a perfect fit for the young guys on the team. That your question suggests it would only cost cap space makes it a huge no-brainer. Sign Collins, draft a defensive forward and pick up a decent wing and center in free agency.It sounds like you think it's a good idea to use the cap space on a guy who potentially might or might not be as good as DeRozan, to replace DeRozan as the centerpiece?
Murray, White
Walker, Vassell
Johnson, (FA wing)
Collins, (Drafted Forward)
Poeltl, (FA C)
That's probably a strong rotation, and that's ignoring KBD/Weatherspoon, anything acquired in a vet trade and Eubanks and/or Samanic developing well enough to get in the rotation.
Need to know more about Collins. Sounds like he'd be a really great addition. At what cost I don't know. If he's going to be the all-star player we need? Let's hope.
Dinosaurs Mitoglou the C that was brought up in a previous thread stating that the Spurs have been keeping an eye on across sea's is friends with John Collins. They played together at Wake Forest in college and I recently watched an old interview with Collins asking if they were still friends since Mitoglou went over sea's to play for Panathinaikos and Collins replied that they still keep in touch. Maybe the Spurs sign Dinos Mitoglou this offseason to help entice Collins to sign as a FA. Dinos has a nice touch from outside and can be a nice role player off the bench backing up Poeltl next season. Watch some of his Wake Forest highlights, he hit 8 3 pointers in one game.
DJM, Mills, Jones
White, LW4, QW
KJ, Vassell, 1st Rd Pick
Collins, Gay, Samanic
Poeltl, Dinos, Eubanks
Not sure what to do with Lyles.
2 way contracts for our 2nd Rd Pick and KBD
In that case, argue with someone who actually said it, instead of applying it to me, who clearly never said it.
I can see this being the plan for next season, however, unless someone makes a huge leap I'm not at all convinced it'll be a better team than this year's. In fact, I'd say it'll be worse. Perhaps more upside, but upside doesn't mean too much.
This is exactly the type of asset consolidation and roster balancing move I hope the Spurs make in the coming seasons.
I agree. Instead of locking up too much middling talent to long term deals and ending up with a low ceiling team, they should take advantage of situations where they can upgrade and balance the roster.
The most important factor is to identify who's a keeper and who's not. As for Collins specifically, I'm not convinced he's a max player or a difference maker, however trading for him is the easiest realistic way to have him and DDR next season if that's the plan. If they have to acquire him in the summer with cap space then DDR will be gone.
Teams like the Heat had lots of these mid range guys that had largish contracts. They still managed to get a max player in Butler and obviously drafted a future stud big at pick 14. The Heat shows that you can build contenders without tanking and without trying to knock everything out of the park.
Edit*
And this was a team that lost Lebron in 14, lost Wade to retirement and Bosh to a career illness. 6 years later, they back in the hunt.
Collins went to Wake Forest? That's a sign......
No thanks. I'm going to just assume you were responding to the point I was making, since you quoted me and all. This whole discussion started from you trying to make a semantic distinction, and now you've completely dropped the pretense of your question to harp on it. The point about players under 30 and the point about ceilings are the exact same point.
Last edited by Chinook; 01-29-2021 at 09:32 AM.
If you're comparing it to what they're doing this year, when they seem to have nine guys who are playing pretty well, then I can understand. This Spurs team is performing as a solid playoff team with room to improve. But due to age, contracts roster conflict, it's not sustainable. If the Spurs manage to get young, keep all of their draft picks and still have space in their long-term budget while still being about as good as they are this year, that's a big win. A lot of STers don't want to accept how good the vets are, so they think it's easy to replace them. It's not easy, but this is a potential path that would let SA remain a playoff team while being able to develop guys at all positions. That's a great place to be for a small-market team that hasn't had a top-10 pick in a quarter-century.
That's only if the Spurs value him, and if they think he's worth paying him up to the max. If they do, then they obviously can match in RFA. Otherwise, the Spurs would getting rid of a decent player with still a pretty good amount of upside and another who is a big question mark but could, in theory, turn into something good for the chance to overpay Collins in the off-season.
Does Walker + Samanic have the potential to match or exceed Collins production/ potential? Maybe. Then there's the difference in combined future salary. Collins is more likely to be overpaid and be on a productive player on a bad deal in a couple of years. Walker might end up being the player that he is and could still end up being overpaid in RFA while Samanic washes out. Still, I think i'd rather keep Walker and Samanic rather than risk a trade for Collins.
Spurs still need PF though, but the draft and looking elsewhere in FA is probably a better option.
Assume away. Simply reading my posts in the thread would show I wasn't talking about their ceilings, but it's more convenient for you to lump me in with others who are, which gives you the opportunity for a disingenuous gotcha on the ceiling point argument. Congrats on that. My question is and always has been whether or not it's wise to spend big money on another DeRozan type player who puts up big numbers but doesn't produce a winning effect typical of max contract guys. That's always been my way of looking at Collins.
This thread is about Walker and Samanic for Collins. I made a comment about why talking about Walker's and/or Samanic's ceilings is wrong-headed, because Collins would clearly be the best player under 30. You decided to quote me to ask why I separated the young guys and vets. I explained my reasoning and went on to answer your follow-up question about whether Collins is worth the money if he's almost as good as DeRozan. You didn't reply to that thread of the conversation after that point. So I assume you understand my stance and either agree or don't feel the need to argue.
So if that was all you wanted to know, then the conversation could've ended there. Instead, you had to reiterate that you didn't say anything about ceilings. I never accused you of doing so. I merely restated my stance on the topic this thread is about. This thread is bigger than our conversation. It's not about signing Collins straight up. It's about trading for him using Walker and Samanic, so his value versus theirs is also topical. I clarified that, and instead of just going, "Oh, okay, he wasn't specifically accusing me of that, so I don't need to respond", you decided to go, "Talk to someone else about that". This thread IS for talking about that. Like if you don't want to talk about that, cool. I already answer the question you said you had, and you seem satisfied by the answer. It's okay not just move on. Instead, you're trying to read a "gotcha moment" into it, as if I was the one you was jumping into your conversation.
You haven't said anything about Walker's or Samanic's ceilings that I can remember. Cool noted. Now I'm going to go ahead and reiterate for the thread that we can debate whether Collins is worth trading for with Walker and Samanic. You can think Collins isn't worth the max or that Walker or Samanic are worth more. But comparing a prospect's potential directly to a young player's production is flawed reasoning. Collins is a good young big with a realistic chance of making an All-Star game soon. That is a high floor, and if Walker and Samanic were definitely not able to reach it, then there's no way the Spurs would be able to pull off this trade. You have to pay in order to get good guys in trades. You can't wait for guys to flame out first, and you can't ever know for sure if you'll end up regretting the deal later on because the guy you moved blew up. If you're the Pacers, you have to make trades planning to get George Hill, not worrying you might trade away Kawhi Leonard.
Isn't that exactly what the Spurs did in order to land Kawhi?
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