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DeRozan. They been wanting him ever since we got him
Orlando is in a strange predicament. They would be knocking on the door of a 4 seed if they didn't have injuries to their best players.
Anyhow, who could they possibly want for Kikola Vucevic?
Vassell? Lonnie Walker? Would we need to take on Fultz as salary dump?
DeRozan. They been wanting him ever since we got him
Does this really need its own thread? There’s already a robust Vuc discussion in the trade deadline thread, including a tweet projecting what ORL would want.
Last edited by Teamduncan21; 03-09-2021 at 09:21 PM.
Lol @ Fultz as a salary dump. This forum is ridiculous and hard to read at times.
They are often just behind the times. Fultz would have been considered a salary dump 3 years ago. Vuc would have been a good pickup then, too.
That I can agree with. Wasn’t he literally dumped for a 2nd? He was making huge progress before the injury.
We overvalue our young players. It's possible that none of them ever amount to a better player than Vucevic. That said, he doesn't fit the Spur timeline for legit competing for a le, so I don't see why they would give up their youth or draft picks for him. Probably just seeing what the asking price is before moving on.
I don’t think it’s about overvaluing or undervaluing young players
to me- the proposition of trading for Vucevic is derailing the idea of building a promising team through the draft and instead making the mistake of selling off pieces of your young group for 2 years of a pseudo star player who in my opinion doesn’t even play a position of need for the spurs at this time.
without even mentioning Lonnie and why selling low on a player you have under team control for the foreseeable future is IMO myopic and an extension of the need for instant gratification, just dealing a first rounder doesn’t make sense to me. For me to entertain the idea, i need to be convinced that the 2 and a half years of Vucevic and whatever we can do in that time frame is more valuable than the prospect of keeping our young core together+ the potential to add to them in the coming draft. I don’t think that case can be made. And then add in people throwing in multiple picks? Get outtaaaaaaaaaa here.
To me, it's not about timelines. There's a legit argument that Poeltl is better than Vuc right now. Jakob is that superlative of a defender. If the Spurs didn't have Poeltl (or if the Spurs find a way to trade him to acquire someone of equal impact at a different position, I guess), then adding Vuc to DeRozan and Murray/White could make sense. But it doesn't make sense to pay so much for a moderate upgrade, especially since the team would potentially give up a guy like Vassell, who'd be a big part of replacing the defensive impact Poeltl has. It's a bad use of resources. The team should absolutely consider spending (and FFS, they should trying to trade the 2021 pick over future picks -- no idea why folks keep trying to trade the double-draft pick that could easily be in the lottery if DeRozan leaves). But they should look to do so with the plan to make subsequent win-now moves over the next year or so, not just to try to eek out a few more victories this year before fizzling out.
Seriously. When it comes to per-minute impact, it's not even close. Vuc is getting overrated, somehow by the same fanbase that's so critical of DeRozan.
Especially in those clutch minutes when one of them has to be taken out to prevent hack-a-Jak.
I think Jakob is a very good big for modern NBA, but as I wrote the other day, there are way too many flaws in his game for him to play more than 20, maybe 25mpg on a serious playoff team.
Sets good screens and that's it as far as offense is concerned. Settles for soft layups instead of easy dunks, has absolutely no moves and just attempts those push shots. One of the worst FT shooters in the league.
Great defender, but still really foul prone.
Then you look at the rest of the roster. DJ, Derrick, Devin and Keldon are the projected future starters. All of them will be or already are great defenders. None of them, except for maybe Devin will ever be elite 3pt shooters.
Now, do you want someone like Poeltl who's a huge negative on offense to play with them or you want Vucevic who's sheer presence and spacing would allow a lot of easy points.
Something has to give. Either we trade some of the young guys for better shooters, or we get a shooting big. For example Turner would be an ideal fit.
But DJ+Keldon+Jakob lineups won't work in playoff games for extended minutes.
Btw, Vucevic is averaging nearly 25/12/4 on 48/41/85. With a great contract.
There are no mental gymnastics that can convince me 7/7 player has bigger impact.
Especially in today's league where you're not allowed to play defense in a lot of situations and especially considering the rest of our roster.
There are no mental gymnastics needed to see how our defense improved a ton and has resulted in more wins. I think people forget how we looked early on in the season when neither of our centers had it going. When no one is there to anchor the defense in the middle, our team defense suffers a great deal. We have a top 10 defense for the first time in a long time and it's evident Poeltl is the cause of it.
People are ready to see our defense turn to again. I'm not.
Me neither, that's why I said Turner would be a perfect fit.
Unless Jakob somehow improves his FT% to at least 65%, he'll always be a liability.
Tbh, we shouldn't even be talking about Vucevic because all the reports say Magic wants a lot of assets back.
I just don't think there's a universe where Jakob is a better player than someone averaging 25/12/4 on great percentages. And it's not like Vucevic is awful on defense.
As far as I'm concerned, I still wouldn't trade anyone other than 4 veterans. Lonnie and a first if a great player is available.
Now that Luka is starting to look like he has some serious potential, I don't even want Collins anymore.
We like what we have.
I think one factor to consider when looking at available bigs (to bolster the offensive production from the center rotation) in the free agent market or by trade is if we can find it elsewhere for cheap. I think the Spurs always take this approach so as to maximize their roster. Is Turner special enough that they can't find a similar big they can develop from the draft? Since when you select a big from the draft, you have a clean template... You get to "choose" the personality type, if not the set of skills you can build upon. If Luka is looking like a special player, why can't we look for a Turner type in the draft that we can build up to be better than the original version? Why invest now in a player who will clog up the salary cap? Are the Spurs that much in a hurry? At this point, I think the answer is no... Just some things to think about.Me neither, that's why I said Turner would be a perfect fit.
Unless Jakob somehow improves his FT% to at least 65%, he'll always be a liability.
Tbh, we shouldn't even be talking about Vucevic because all the reports say Magic wants a lot of assets back.
I just don't think there's a universe where Jakob is a better player than someone averaging 25/12/4 on great percentages. And it's not like Vucevic is awful on defense.
As far as I'm concerned, I still wouldn't trade anyone other than 4 veterans. Lonnie and a first if a great player is available.
Now that Luka is starting to look like he has some serious potential, I don't even want Collins anymore.
We like what we have.
They want DJ, Poeltl, and picks. You’re basically gutting the D for a three years ago version of LMA.
Houston was in a hurry. Three years ago, they were in the WCFs. Now, they’re in the basement floor of the outhouse. They won’t even be where we are for 4 years, and that’s assuming they actually can develop players like we do.
Here's Patty giving an example of what makes Poeltl special beyond the box score. Answer: screen assists.
All the arguments for Poeltl over Vucevic are nearly identical to the ones in the Conley over DeRozan debate. Interesting.
That's kinda why I don't see a need for DeRozan or Vucevic on the Spurs.
Well, they were pressured by their diva star. That's why the Spurs are selective with their drafting process - character matters a huge deal for them. Unfortunately, the process is not always perfect... Which is how you end up with Nephews and Marcus Morrises. I'm sure they've tightened it up since then.
So Poeltl isn't a huge negative on offense. He is a slight negative because of how he started the year, but there's no reason why he can't have the same offensive impact, say, Tiago Splitter had. You're also ignoring that he is arguably the single best defender in the league this season. He's still one of the top net-impact players because his defense is that good.
I don't think it's a good plan to count of guys like White and Johnson to be long-term pieces. They have to develop/stay healthy. When you're talking about actually trying to improve beyond the current tier, you can't just project keeping a bunch of young players for years. Some folks will have to be trade -- not just in a Vucevic trade, but in general. DeRozan, obviously, is way better than the current young guards. And that's not just a now vs later thing. He's better than you can realistically expect any of the young guards to be. By far, if the Spurs are considering acquiring an older vet like Vuc, the plan should be to build around him, DeRozan, Murray or White, Vassell or Johnson or Walker, and some fifth player the team sells most of their other young players to get. The plan definitely shouldn't be to trade for Vuc and then roll with a down-graded perimeter and few assets to acquire more talent.
Wut? Most of us aren't saying Poeltl is obviously better than Vucevic. It's more like they already have Poeltl and thus don't need to pay assets to get a guy who will split minutes with him. If they were both free agents and the team had enough cap space to sign either, then the debate would be completely different. What tips this into obvious-no territory is the idea of giving up Poeltl plus assets, while also giving up on 2021 cap space. In a vacuum, a DeRozan/Vuc pairing would likely be better than what they have no, provided they had the means to add more complimentary players and try to push for a trade for a big star.
You literally posted There's a legit argument that Poeltl is better than Vuc right now and then followed it up with Seriously. When it comes to per-minute impact, it's not even close.
If I was wrong in reading that as you saying that Poeltl was better than Vuc, then I apologize.
There is a legit argument that Poeltl is better than Vuc, but by that same extension, there's a legit argument that Vuc is better. And while the per-minute stats aren't close, the overall stats are way closer because Poeltl doesn't seem as capable of playing big minutes consistently.
Folks upthread were arguing that the Spurs have the perimeter defenders to make up for the expected defensive drop-off. If acquiring Vuc was just straight-up for Poeltl, I think you could make a good argument that it's the better long-term play. The players are close enough to where you keep the guy you have and use the assets on a position of greater need. Basically a player at any other position could start with the core guys just fine except for another center.
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