Grades: Spurs @ Pacers - Apr. 19, 2021

[Kurgan]

Like he was going to keep Marco and Bryn last summer, right?

What's the point in giving so much minutes to the vets if they're not gonna be here next season?

[Dejounte]

What's the point in giving so much minutes to the vets if they're not gonna be here next season?

Let's say you have a job and a mortgage on a nice house and your contract is almost up with your job, but you still have a mortgage to pay. Let's then say your employer gives you no chances to prove to your current employer or your next employer that you deserve a contract as good as the one now or better. You're left now with no options to pay your mortgage, and your life is pretty much ruined. I'd wager the Spurs are doing the ethical thing here and are looking at the human side of things when it comes to players. I'm simply theorizing here.

It doesn't have to be just a mortgage payment, these players could have charitable foundations that they support, or businesses.

[GAustex]

Let's say you have a job and a mortgage on a nice house and your contract is almost up with your job, but you still have a mortgage to pay. Let's then say your employer gives you no chances to prove to your current employer or your next employer that you deserve a contract as good as the one now or better. You're left now with no options to pay your mortgage, and your life is pretty much ruined. I'd wager the Spurs are doing the ethical thing here and are looking at the human side of things when it comes to players. I'm simply theorizing here.

It doesn't have to be just a mortgage payment, these players could have charitable foundations that they support, or businesses.

This seems to be the reasoning for Pops actions with this years vets and Bryn and Marco. Strange as it is-as its at the expense it seems of the success of the team

[Dejounte]

This seems to be the reasoning for Pops actions with this years vets and Bryn and Marco. Strange as it is-as its at the expense it seems of the success of the team

Yeah, as fans it's something we don't really think about.

[SpursDynasty85]

If you enjoy just watching the kids grow and then bolt because this team is perennial first round fodder at best, I'm not going to take that away from you, and you should definitely enjoy it.

I will agree with you there's no guarantees that blowing it up is going to make things better sooner, but I don't know of any other way in this league to acquire star talent than outright throwing stupid money at them or the picking wisely when you have high draft picks.

I also agree the Spurs are on a small market, so just having money in hand doesn't guarantee anything either, unfortunately.

Would love the team to take a page out of your avatar, faking a number of injuries so we can land the #1 pick again, tbh...

Spurs found talent. It’s all about keeping them under reasonable contracts and not overhyping young talent and maxing them too soon. Spurs are riding a thin line and so far it doesn’t look half bad. Gonna get another low lottery type pick and have a ton of cap space to work with this offseason. Pretty good IMO.

[slick'81]

Spurs found talent. It’s all about keeping them under reasonable contracts and not overhyping young talent and maxing them too soon. Spurs are riding a thin line and so far it doesn’t look half bad. Gonna get another low lottery type pick and have a ton of cap space to work with this offseason. Pretty good IMO.

[SpursDynasty85]

It's paying off we've gone with higher ceiling draft picks like Walker/Murray/Luka but needs a year or two more than some of the other guys drafted around them. Coupled with Vassell, Keldon, and White who are all going to get better than their current selfs probably, that pretty impressive core to start with. Some all-stars might want to join these guys to see where we can go. Dieng, Poeltl, and Eubanks are legit NBA rotation players now too. Even if we don't pick up anyone, this team will be pretty good in 2 years.

[Dejounte]

So last night was obviously the "bad game" by DJ

Even if his skills marginally improve, he's still not the kind of player you build a team around offensively IMO. It'd take a big jump, an impossible jump maybe, to get him into the top crop of NBA PGs. His instincts alone are not something I'm confident he could ever develop to that level, not to mention handles/first step/craftiness.

I never said to build around him. The question posed was if DJ and White can work together long-term and what it would take to convince you of that. It seems you're singularly focused on Murray and not really concerned about the pairing of the two. There's no indication that we're building around Murray. He currently takes an eighth (12.5%) of the cap space while providing a sixth (16.7%) of the scoring load (while also giving other things such as leadership & defense). One can argue he's outperforming his contract, or at the very least playing at the appropriate level. There certainly is the likelihood he steps it up further next year, and makes his contract even more of a bargain.

The chemistry with Jakob thing was really interesting... Some of those passes looked like "bailouts" where DJ had already made up his mind and jumped or started to shoot, but changed his mind mid-air, and Jakob was just casually there to take the pass. But many others were legit good reads. It's interesting that most of those are bounce passes, I wonder why; I see Derrick passing more into the high air, on contrast. On the whole though, tbh, these clips don't really fight with my notion that DJ makes mostly "basic" level passes; none of those clips wooed me in the slightest, like other players' would. He's just not that gifted as a passer - and even in some instances where Poeltl was wide open, he takes a second too long to notice and exploit that. Playoff defenses aren't gonna give you those seconds... Opportunities can be nail-thin, and I don't see DJ exploiting them with nearly enough regularity to call passing a strength of his game. He's just ok. Is he improving? Sure is, but I don't see him making "that jump".

I'll go back once again to the TP and Manu days. Manu was a WAY better passer than TP, very creative and eye-popping, but that didn't mean he should be the starting point guard over TP. Point guards on the Spurs simply have a different role than most players in the NBA, and perhaps it's justified, given how rare it is for teams with point guards as the centerpiece (Chris Paul, Steve Nash, Allen Iverson, the list goes on...) to win a championship. And it seems to me that no matter what guard you slot in with Derrick, Derrick will have the same amount of ball handling duties as he does now. The system that's built has Derrick taking over the last 6 minutes of each quarter with Murray taking over the first six, sometimes they switch it up and go with the hot hand (oh, and not to forget DeMar taking those duties as well). So whoever you replace Murray with, it's always going to be the same way. So it's really all about being picky that Derrick is not the one starting the game off as the primary ball handler, because being the ball handler for all 30 minutes of his playtime seems out of the question (as it should, since Derrick has value as an off-ball shooter). It's similar to being upset that Manu came off the bench for most of his career. There's value in using the guards this way; for one, it changes up the pace by a lot and keeps the opponent guessing. ...I could go on with additional points, but I'll leave that for later since I've made enough here.

[Sugus]

So last night was obviously the "bad game" by DJ

I literally replied to you in the grades thread before reading this lmfao, talk about a predictable outcome haha. I absolutely watched that game with an open mind, per your request... And it went pretty much as I expected

I never said to build around him. The question posed was if DJ and White can work together long-term and what it would take to convince you of that. It seems you're singularly focused on Murray and not really concerned about the pairing of the two. There's no indication that we're building around Murray. He currently takes an eighth (12.5%) of the cap space while providing a sixth (16.7%) of the scoring load (while also giving other things such as leadership & defense). One can argue he's outperforming his contract, or at the very least playing at the appropriate level. There certainly is the likelihood he steps it up further next year, and makes his contract even more of a bargain.

Hmm, I see your points, and don't think you want to build around DJ, but to me it does look like the Spurs want to build around him (and the pairing with White, ofc). He's prominently featured as the "leader" of the team, the spirit, the "chosen one" after Nephew's spurning so to speak. Of course, a lot of that has to do with his own character, but I doubt Pop looks at him like a roleplayer, instead of an actual core piece. Following that lead, it furthers my desire to sell high on him: not only to recoup more assets that will be useful in the rebuild (and would allow us to "roll the dice" again in search of better, younger talent), but also simply so that Pop can't be deluded into thinking DJ's a #1 option or close to it

I definitely don't disagree with your takes on his role/production and contract; I've rarely criticised his production (and even then, it's only when I'm saying that although good, it's not good enough IMO for a championship-calibre-starting-PG and won't develop into one). His contract is great and easily tradeable considering modern NBA salaries, much more tradeable than White's given both players' productions too, which is another reason I'd sell on DJ and not White (for now).

I'll go back once again to the TP and Manu days. Manu was a WAY better passer than TP, very creative and eye-popping, but that didn't mean he should be the starting point guard over TP. Point guards on the Spurs simply have a different role than most players in the NBA, and perhaps it's justified, given how rare it is for teams with point guards as the centerpiece (Chris Paul, Steve Nash, Allen Iverson, the list goes on...) to win a championship. And it seems to me that no matter what guard you slot in with Derrick, Derrick will have the same amount of ball handling duties as he does now. The system that's built has Derrick taking over the last 6 minutes of each quarter with Murray taking over the first six, sometimes they switch it up and go with the hot hand (oh, and not to forget DeMar taking those duties as well). So whoever you replace Murray with, it's always going to be the same way. So it's really all about being picky that Derrick is not the one starting the game off as the primary ball handler, because being the ball handler for all 30 minutes of his playtime seems out of the question (as it should, since Derrick has value as an off-ball shooter). It's similar to being upset that Manu came off the bench for most of his career. There's value in using the guards this way; for one, it changes up the pace by a lot and keeps the opponent guessing. ...I could go on with additional points, but I'll leave that for later since I've made enough here.

Hmm, don't really agree here. Yes, the current roster does mean that White at PG or SG would play the same way, but that's not the scenario I'm picturing. I guess it comes down to: do you think a higher Usg Rate for White would be better for the Spurs' offense overall? And I say this, because there's two kinds of posters here, those high on White's ability and those who aren't. If you do believe that - there's easily other league SG roleplayers that, paired next to White, would give the latter more ball-handling opportunities due to simply being offensively limited (think of a backcourt pairing of Danny Green and White, as opposed to Dejounte Murray and White, that's the difference in my mind). While the "system" right now does imply shared ball-handling duties for DJ-DW, it doesn't mean it's an absolute formula that can't be overruled due to personnel shifts. Personally, I'd love to have both White ball-handle more (due to shipping out DJ, and more importantly, DeRozan), combined with the addition of a point-forward or wing-forward kind of player, who can take up the rest of playmaking duties (of course it's an ideal, but think Luka Doncic, LBJ, Kawhi kind of players).

So no, I don't agree that "whoever you replace Murray with, it's always going to be the same way". But it's still not my fundamental point that we're discussing. My gripe with Dejounte is not in relation to his pairing with White exclusively (or even mainly), but his clear (IMO) limitations as a player. It's not that I don't think the DW-DJ pairing is doomed or glorious or anywhere in between - I simply don't see any serious playoff winnings being spearheaded by a team where Murray plays a significant offensive (and especially playmaking) role. Last night's game was a picture-perfect example of how I'd imagine a playoff series would go down (and the intensity was there, too). Again, this isn't to say that I do believe White to be able to fill those shoes - but ATM, the best value/potential/return piece the Spurs have, by far, is Murray, so I'd like for them to start off a proper rebuild by shipping him, and leaving White to spearhead the rebuilding team, considering his age probably won't ever line up with the Spurs' next championship contending team (if there ever is one again ).

[ElNono]

Spurs found talent. It’s all about keeping them under reasonable contracts and not overhyping young talent and maxing them too soon. Spurs are riding a thin line and so far it doesn’t look half bad. Gonna get another low lottery type pick and have a ton of cap space to work with this offseason. Pretty good IMO.

The bolded is a completely unreasonable expectation though. That was hard to do already when you had true stars that left money on the table and your team was a contender. Damn near impossible when you're a rebuilding team.

Even more so when young players have a real risk of losing out on economic security for them and their families. You can ask vets to do that, and you might be able to backload some contracts, but it's really unrealistic.

We've seen this happen over and over again with teams like Utah back when they were trying to grow up... had to pay Favors and Hayward top bills to keep them and eventually had to move them. Or even Simmons with the Spurs, where we had to let him walk because he got an offer the Spurs wouldn't match.

You could point out Simmons sucks, but the point is that these situations happen all the time, other teams have capspace too and identify young talent as well.

[SpursDynasty85]

The bolded is a completely unreasonable expectation though. That was hard to do already when you had true stars that left money on the table and your team was a contender. Damn near impossible when you're a rebuilding team.

Even more so when young players have a real risk of losing out on economic security for them and their families. You can ask vets to do that, and you might be able to backload some contracts, but it's really unrealistic.

We've seen this happen over and over again with teams like Utah back when they were trying to grow up... had to pay Favors and Hayward top bills to keep them and eventually had to move them. Or even Simmons with the Spurs, where we had to let him walk because he got an offer the Spurs wouldn't match.

You could point out Simmons sucks, but the point is that these situations happen all the time, other teams have capspace too and identify young talent as well.

Meh, your point of view is too narrow. It’s why sitting in the late lottery area is good. You choose from guys that have flaws or are raw or not as desirable and you mold them or develop them into something and pay them a fair value to stay at a place they know and will not change much; like a full rebuild. Each organization has to leverage whatever advantages they have and Spurs culture and the reputation for treating players well for their Spurs career is a selling point to young and old vets. I believe Spurs are choosing their draft picks with the whole picture in mind and they don’t want to be in the high lottery area where all their young guys want to just get paid and leave.

[TD 21]

If you are a small market team in rebuild, not sure any meaningful veterans are looking at Orlando or OKC right now, as examples.

I actually think we are one key veteran signing away from easily being in the playoffs next year. Thats pretty good considering we were supposed to be rebuilding just 3 years ago.

Spurs found talent. It’s all about keeping them under reasonable contracts and not overhyping young talent and maxing them too soon. Spurs are riding a thin line and so far it doesn’t look half bad. Gonna get another low lottery type pick and have a ton of cap space to work with this offseason. Pretty good IMO.

No meaningful veterans are looking at this no name young core, in a non glamour market, with an atypical NBA environment, either.

The most likely outcome is the only significant rotational change is Markkanen replacing DeRozan, which is definitely not easily getting them to the playoffs and squeaking in would be terrible, as it'd mean maintaining treadmill status.

They found B and C talent and a late lottery pick is likely to yield more of the same.

[SpursDynasty85]

No meaningful veterans are looking at this no name young core, in a non glamour market, with an atypical NBA environment, either.

The most likely outcome is the only significant rotational change is Markkanen replacing DeRozan, which is definitely not easily getting them to the playoffs and squeaking in would be terrible, as it'd mean maintaining treadmill status.

They found B and C talent and a late lottery pick is likely to yield more of the same.

You have to add Dieng as the first meaningful veteran free-agent. He would be a good piece moving forward too and I actually prefer him to Poeltl in a lot of ways this roster. Dieng and another solid PF veteran would be fine. They don't have to be all-stars. I think Vassell/Walker/Murray/Keldon will grow into a pretty dangerous core. White and Luka is icing on the cake.

[TD 21]

You have to add Dieng as the first meaningful veteran free-agent. He would be a good piece moving forward too and I actually prefer him to Poeltl in a lot of ways this roster. Dieng and another solid PF veteran would be fine. They don't have to be all-stars. I think Vassell/Walker/Murray/Keldon will grow into a pretty dangerous core. White and Luka is icing on the cake.

I like Dieng, but a veteran backup center doesn't qualify as "meaningful" in the grand scheme.

I give Johnson a puncher's chance for now, but the most likely outcome is this core lacks not only a genuine star, but anybody to build an offense around period. That's one issue, but another is them becoming just good enough to keep this team late lottery/treadmill fodder.

[heyheymymy]

Hmm, those handling possessions didn't quite catch my eyes (got a timestamp by any chance?), but he did post a great statline of 16/7/1/2/1 on 7/10 shooting with 2 TOs before fouling out. Quite the productive evening, and it's funny that through the season, it's becoming normalized to see Jakob scoring in the double digits, to the point where it's not even a commendable thing (didn't see a single comment about it in the game thread nor this one). Quite the shift from folks saying he was a non-factor on offense and an overpaid scrub, tbh, that crowd is real quiet nowadays...

It's pretty clear the chemistry Jakob has with White. I've been saying this since last season, but they're a special duo, and in no small part due to White's great decision-making in the PnR and excellent passes to feed Poeltl easy bunnies. I'd expect Jakob to keep on being productive on O as long as DW keeps being a featured part of the offense (remember folks saying we shouldn't have to wait for White to be back to judge Poeltl's lack of offensive scoring production*, when he had Dejounte ball-handling as the next-best-thing? ). I'm still not convinced the DJ-DW pairing can get the Spurs anywhere relevant, and would still like to sell high on Dejounte, and a good part of that is how White's game really gets unlocked when he's trusted with the ball. Having to wait for his "turn" by standing on the perimeter as DeRozan and Murray jack up long two's is not a winning formula for him.

6:20 3rd Q Poeltl gets the steal near opposing paint and brings it up to mid court before hitting a streaker who passes it back for the finish. Not sure if it counts but I thought it was impressive movement with the ball for a big

[ElNono]

Meh, your point of view is too narrow. It’s why sitting in the late lottery area is good. You choose from guys that have flaws or are raw or not as desirable and you mold them or develop them into something and pay them a fair value to stay at a place they know and will not change much; like a full rebuild. Each organization has to leverage whatever advantages they have and Spurs culture and the reputation for treating players well for their Spurs career is a selling point to young and old vets. I believe Spurs are choosing their draft picks with the whole picture in mind and they don’t want to be in the high lottery area where all their young guys want to just get paid and leave.

I mean, this is a completely skewed view of the Spurs and the league... who have they developed like that? Kawhi, who was the 15th pick and still got to play with the big 3? How did that Spurs culture work out?

Since 2014, the Spurs have drafted: Fathead, Milutinov, Murray, White, Walker, Johnson, Samanic, Vassell... stating any of those kids project to be anything but slightly above average is a stretch (we can leave Vassell out of it if you prefer, since he's both too young and one of the highest picks the Spurs had since TD).

The whole 'Spurs culture' schtick worked out when the team had the big 3 and could pick and choose which talent to bring in. Now we're the beggars here. That's how we ended up with prima donnas like LMA and DeRozan.

Sorry, but this league is all about star talent, and it's extremely rare those magically drop to the middle of the draft. The other teams are not stupid and do as much due diligence as the Spurs do.

The biggest advantage the Spurs have right now is that Dan Gilbert isn't running the team, but I can't think of many more. This roster doesn't strike me as a star magnet, tbh.

[SpursDynasty85]

I mean, this is a completely skewed view of the Spurs and the league... who have they developed like that? Kawhi, who was the 15th pick and still got to play with the big 3? How did that Spurs culture work out?

Since 2014, the Spurs have drafted: Fathead, Milutinov, Murray, White, Walker, Johnson, Samanic, Vassell... stating any of those kids project to be anything but slightly above average is a stretch (we can leave Vassell out of it if you prefer, since he's both too young and one of the highest picks the Spurs had since TD).

The whole 'Spurs culture' schtick worked out when the team had the big 3 and could pick and choose which talent to bring in. Now we're the beggars here. That's how we ended up with prima donnas like LMA and DeRozan.

Sorry, but this league is all about star talent, and it's extremely rare those magically drop to the middle of the draft. The other teams are not stupid and do as much due diligence as the Spurs do.

The biggest advantage the Spurs have right now is that Dan Gilbert isn't running the team, but I can't think of many more. This roster doesn't strike me as a star magnet, tbh.

Your complaint is we aren’t a star magnet? We never were and we never should act like one. If a star did come, we probably would be a legit contender with this squad but you have to utilize what you have. Teams might get a Vucevic, Karl Anthony Towns, and more but even if you do get those guys it still barely works out. Kawhi was one guy and whatever happened there wasn’t because of the culture but because of a rare instance of some weird things and powerful people behind the scenes. LMA is a bad example considering he was the premiere free agent and we nabbed him.

[ElNono]

Your complaint is we aren’t a star magnet? We never were and we never should act like one. If a star did come, we probably would be a legit contender with this squad but you have to utilize what you have. Teams might get a Vucevic, Karl Anthony Towns, and more but even if you do get those guys it still barely works out. Kawhi was one guy and whatever happened there wasn’t because of the culture but because of a rare instance of some weird things and powerful people behind the scenes. LMA is a bad example considering he was the premiere free agent and we nabbed him.

We landed LMA because this team was still a contender coming off a championship. Not to mention nephew projected to be a franchise player. We had the big 3 still around as well. Completely different situation.

I'm not complaining about anything, I'm pointing out that it's a complete illusion that any star will come here because of the "Spurs culture" or "vets gets privileges"... Over the hill vets might bite into that, not young stars that have to drag those vets and a bunch of average kids to the finish line on a rookie deal.

I'm 100% realistic here. This is a small market that can't compete on endorsements and limelight with bigger cities and thus the actual value of having cap space is relative. Teams like the Lakers who rarely have cap space make things work anyways when a star is available, moving players, etc.

We also don't have a roster that can contend and thus entice some star to come team up. That only leaves the draft to acquire what this team needs, and we might agree or disagree as to whether the lottery system is fair or not, but it's statistically undeniable that generally the best talent in the draft gets picked early.

With that in mind, it's just a matter of being pragmatic. Our last two franchise-defining stars, DRob and TD, were both #1 picks. Once you have those guys maybe you can talk about "Spurs culture" and what not, when you don't, you need to figure out how to get them.

[timtonymanu]

Calling el Nono narrow with his opinion but trying to validate that middle lottery is the best position for the Spurs. you can’t make this up.

[SpursDynasty85]

Calling el Nono narrow with his opinion but trying to validate that middle lottery is the best position for the Spurs. you can’t make this up.

Well it’s an argument. Rebuild while trying to compete. It sure as heck shouldn’t be surprising anymore and people should see that it’s kind of working.

[SpursDynasty85]

We landed LMA because this team was still a contender coming off a championship. Not to mention nephew projected to be a franchise player. We had the big 3 still around as well. Completely different situation.

I'm not complaining about anything, I'm pointing out that it's a complete illusion that any star will come here because of the "Spurs culture" or "vets gets privileges"... Over the hill vets might bite into that, not young stars that have to drag those vets and a bunch of average kids to the finish line on a rookie deal.

I'm 100% realistic here. This is a small market that can't compete on endorsements and limelight with bigger cities and thus the actual value of having cap space is relative. Teams like the Lakers who rarely have cap space make things work anyways when a star is available, moving players, etc.

We also don't have a roster that can contend and thus entice some star to come team up. That only leaves the draft to acquire what this team needs, and we might agree or disagree as to whether the lottery system is fair or not, but it's statistically undeniable that generally the best talent in the draft gets picked early.

With that in mind, it's just a matter of being pragmatic. Our last two franchise-defining stars, DRob and TD, were both #1 picks. Once you have those guys maybe you can talk about "Spurs culture" and what not, when you don't, you need to figure out how to get them.

I get all your points but your strategy is to do what all teams would’ve tried to do and I am starting to like the idea that Spurs can do it their own way. Tanking has negative consequences like having a losing culture, has guys on the team hoping to leave sooner rather than later and can be detrimental to the development of the younger guys as well. We can agree to disagree. Get your points though.

[ElNono]

I get all your points but your strategy is to do what all teams would’ve tried to do and I am starting to like the idea that Spurs can do it their own way. Tanking has negative consequences like having a losing culture, has guys on the team hoping to leave sooner rather than later and can be detrimental to the development of the younger guys as well. We can agree to disagree. Get your points though.

I get what you mean, but that whole winning culture thing was built with stars and wins, and we just have to forget about that, IMVHO. It was nice while we had it, great memories, those banners are ours and look great, but it's gone.

The Spurs are basically back to being what they were until they got lucky in the lottery and landed two #1 picks.

But, hey, we both agree there's no guarantees going either way, so I won't tell you you're wrong. I'll just agree to disagree that's the best way to become a contender again.

[Dejounte]

Hmm, I see your points, and don't think you want to build around DJ, but to me it does look like the Spurs want to build around him (and the pairing with White, ofc). He's prominently featured as the "leader" of the team, the spirit, the "chosen one" after Nephew's spurning so to speak. Of course, a lot of that has to do with his own character, but I doubt Pop looks at him like a roleplayer, instead of an actual core piece.

I disagree here. Just because he's embracing being the vocal leader doesn't mean the team is being built around him. IMO, this team will land its real star (if one on the current team doesn't develop into one) through the draft. That hypothetical player, with as much talent as he has, would still only be 19 years old-ish and would have pressure to act as a leader in front of the media as well. Think about how much weight that is on his shoulders. He's trying to learn the Spurs' system while fielding tough questions, especially if the team is losing and all kinds of scenarios. The benefit of having a "leadership personality" in DJ, is he will be able to act like the vet in that situation and allow the hypothetical player to ease his way into s om. I think it falls in line with how the Spurs develop their players slowly, which as we know, is one of the most unique methods only the Spurs are known for doing. Yes, DJ takes more shots than you would like on the offense but isn't that the point of player development? If you watch the games closely throughout the season, he's slowly tweaking his shot profile and now only going for spots where he's more efficient. Honestly, I don't know where it comes from where you think he takes shots away from other players but we all have our own opinion and IMO, there's a lot of shots that he takes that are good.

So no, I don't agree that "whoever you replace Murray with, it's always going to be the same way". But it's still not my fundamental point that we're discussing. My gripe with Dejounte is not in relation to his pairing with White exclusively (or even mainly), but his clear (IMO) limitations as a player. It's not that I don't think the DW-DJ pairing is doomed or glorious or anywhere in between - I simply don't see any serious playoff winnings being spearheaded by a team where Murray plays a significant offensive (and especially playmaking) role. Last night's game was a picture-perfect example of how I'd imagine a playoff series would go down (and the intensity was there, too). Again, this isn't to say that I do believe White to be able to fill those shoes - but ATM, the best value/potential/return piece the Spurs have, by far, is Murray, so I'd like for them to start off a proper rebuild by shipping him, and leaving White to spearhead the rebuilding team, considering his age probably won't ever line up with the Spurs' next championship contending team (if there ever is one again ).

Fair if you think so, but I simply don't like to view games in a vacuum to determine a player's worth or future, especially when that player has not shown signs of stagnation performance-wise (year to year).