Where are you pro lifers on this one

[RandomGuy]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea'

So they had all sorts of "writings" in 325, HUNDRED OF YEARS after this stuff about Jesus supposedly took place, but so much of it contradicted each other, or was so fantastical that it seemed embarrassing even then.

So they edited it.

We don't even have copies of that. It's lost. We have copies of copies of translations of whatever they picked out of the hat by committee.

Then we have a book that was kept in some rough form by the Catholic church. Until that became inconvenient for a certain king of england who didn't like popes muscling in on his power and divinity.

So King James appointed some people to come up with THE version of these writings, i.e. yet another committee, who edited out stuff HE didn't like.

The King James version.

What really got preserved? The work of multiple committees over thousands of years.

A few writings from Saul of Tarsus, who was inspired decades after this all supposedly took place. That's it.

[SpursforSix]

i wouldnt stress too much about the labels tbh. they're helpful to quickly identify what somebody's view is, but if 2 people are willing to have a conversation about them, you can just lay out your belief system instead of using a 1-2 word shorthand

Agree with this.

Personally, I don't really know how we got here. I was exposed to a lot of religion when I was younger...Catholic School and a lot of Baptist Church stuff. But none of it really ever took.
That being said, I don't discount the possibility that some kind of intelligence put all of this in motion. Even if it's just based on some equations.

I also accept the fact that it may be beyond human understanding. Just like a dog isn't capable of understanding algebra, maybe we aren't capable of grasping how everything really works.

[Neo.]

How do you know those people writing things down didn't make them up?

Maybe you want to prove Moses existed? (hint: he didn't)

how do we know everything recorded about the american revolution wasnt made up? how do we know that the han dynasty wasnt made up? how do we know that the nation of egypt actually existed and wasnt made up?

[RandomGuy]

it is called big bang THEORY.

This is how religious people reply when they cannot prove the existence of their god, they say probe he doesn't exist because they know they cannot prove anything

Things don't get to be a theory in science until there is evidence of it.

Theory in everyday use is means "guess".

The two usages are different.

[Frenchfred]

theres a big difference between telling stories to try to explain something you dont understand, and retelling events that happened during your lifetime as guys like moses did

lol recording capabilities have existed for what, 100 years or so? the bible records events that spans thousands years and doesnt have record of god making some sort of annual appearance or anything. there were periods where he didnt interact with humans for hundreds of years. why would we expect him to suddenly appear just to make you happy?

and it is funny that somebody who believes in an omnipotent, omniscient and in-temporal god will choose to believe that one day god woke up and decided to create everything and not show up after?

[RandomGuy]

how do we know everything recorded about the american revolution wasnt made up? how do we know that the han dynasty wasnt made up? how do we know that the nation of egypt actually existed and wasnt made up?

We have evidence, buildings structures, artifacts, contemporaneous accounts, and some direct, untranslated writings.

Same thing about the nation of Egypt.

Now what evidence do you have that Jesus rose from dead?

[spurraider21]

Agree with this.

Personally, I don't really know how we got here. I was exposed to a lot of religion when I was younger...Catholic School and a lot of Baptist Church stuff. But none of it really ever took.
That being said, I don't discount the possibility that some kind of intelligence put all of this in motion. Even if it's just based on some equations.

I also accept the fact that it may be beyond human understanding. Just like a dog isn't capable of understanding algebra, maybe we aren't capable of grasping how everything really works.

maybe there's a supernatural beyond our comprehension, outside our reality, where god's domain is, and god is the ultimate power of our reality.

but maybe there's a super-duper-natural beyond god's comprehension, where supergod's domain is... and he is the ultimate power of god's reality.

mindblown.gif

[RandomGuy]

Agree with this.

Personally, I don't really know how we got here. I was exposed to a lot of religion when I was younger...Catholic School and a lot of Baptist Church stuff. But none of it really ever took.
That being said, I don't discount the possibility that some kind of intelligence put all of this in motion. Even if it's just based on some equations.

I also accept the fact that it may be beyond human understanding. Just like a dog isn't capable of understanding algebra, maybe we aren't capable of grasping how everything really works.

That's about where I am at.

I don't think we will ever really know one way or the other. Either way would require way more proof and knowledge than we have now.

Those that claim there is can only point to books, or bad arguments. That is how people communicate ideas, and the creator of the universe would have no such constraints.

Why not simply code the knowledge and stories directly into our DNA? or some other method that would leave no doubt.

[Neo.]

Except those writings haven't been preserved.



If you are talking about the bible... wow.

Feel free to show an original manuscript.

materials decayed, therefore it was common to have copyists to keep records of history, not just for the bible but for basically any nation that had written do ents of its history

plenty of copies have been discovered, along with fragments of decayed copies to preserve the message

if copies of bible manuscripts are unacceptable then so is 99.9% of writings not done in the past 100 years

[RandomGuy]

now i pretty much agree with this post. i fully understand why many people raised in religious environments turn atheist, because of the absolute hypocrisy of most christians. i dont disagree with you that the bible and religion is used to control people, and i think its absolutely wrong to do that. but i dont agree that the bible was made to be used as a system of control. some sick individuals have simply used it for such purposes (or for personal gain and greed, or a way to influence governments/politics), and there are few people in the world i have a greater disdain for than them.

what made me an atheist was reading the bible.

It's so obviously the attempt of a primitive people to explain the universe.

Same thing with all the other holy books I have read.

Some of them, like the bible, depict an outright evil "god" that I would not worship even if it was real.

[Neo.]

and it is funny that somebody who believes in an omnipotent, omniscient and in-temporal god will choose to believe that one day god woke up and decided to create everything and not show up after?

except based on bible history, he had plenty of interactions with humankind after creation. nice try making stuff up again.

[Neo.]

what made me an atheist was reading the bible.

It's so obviously the attempt of a primitive people to explain the universe.

Same thing with all the other holy books I have read.

Some of them, like the bible, depict an outright evil "god" that I would not worship even if it was real.

fair enough. if thats the conclusion you drew, so be it. im not trying to sway your opinion.

[RandomGuy]

maybe there's a supernatural beyond our comprehension, outside our reality, where god's domain is, and god is the ultimate power of our reality.

but maybe there's a super-duper-natural beyond god's comprehension, where supergod's domain is... and he is the ultimate power of god's reality.

mindblown.gif

if everything has to have a cause, then what caused God? super-duper God.

Then what created super-duper God? Super-super-duper God?

heh.

[RandomGuy]

except based on bible history, he had plenty of interactions with humankind after creation. nice try making stuff up again.

According to smurf history, smurfs had plenty of interactions with humans after they smurfed into existence.

That is how you sound. "the book is true because the book says its true"

[Neo.]

We have evidence, buildings structures, artifacts, contemporaneous accounts, and some direct, untranslated writings.

Same thing about the nation of Egypt.

but but but what if it wasnt actually egyptians building the pyramid, and it was actually people from asia performing a massive trolljob to confuse all of future humankind?

Now what evidence do you have that Jesus rose from dead?

multiple written eyewitness accounts. no different than what many history books have that we have no problem accepting. not sure why eyewitness accounts suddenly arent credible in the case of the bible, but are fully acceptable in pretty much any other case. or maybe we should just dismiss half the stuff that was talked about in The Last Dance about Michael Jordan, since there was no video evidence or artifacts found of him punching Will Perdue, only eyewitness accounts.

[Neo.]

According to smurf history, smurfs had plenty of interactions with humans after they smurfed into existence.

That is how you sound. "the book is true because the book says its true"

so basically everyone picks and chooses what eyewitness accounts they want to believe and not believe. got it

[RandomGuy]

See there is a story about a real person, Neal Patrick Harris, who we know is real.

He was in New York that we know is real.



Therfore smurfs are real.

---------------------------------------------------------

We have a story with [bible charactor] in it, and we found his tomb, so he was real.

The story took place in [bible place] that we figured out was also real based on archeology.

Therefore magic man in the sky made things happen in the story and is real.

[Blake]

what proof is there of his existence?

There are books about him. Just like the Bible

[Neo.]

Agree with this.

Personally, I don't really know how we got here. I was exposed to a lot of religion when I was younger...Catholic School and a lot of Baptist Church stuff. But none of it really ever took.
That being said, I don't discount the possibility that some kind of intelligence put all of this in motion. Even if it's just based on some equations.

I also accept the fact that it may be beyond human understanding. Just like a dog isn't capable of understanding algebra, maybe we aren't capable of grasping how everything really works.

i think this is a very fair and reasonable assessment. while i personally believe in god, i have my fair share of questions as well, such as how he came about. its an answer i may never get. but i personally dont feel unsatisfied by not having that question answered. there is plenty more in life to keep my mind occupied that i find more satisfaction in, and i have no problem accepting that i have major limitations as a human.

[RandomGuy]

so basically everyone picks and chooses what eyewitness accounts they want to believe and not believe. got it

Not really.

Somethings have more evidence that others.

Provide evidence to a sufficient degree, and I will believe something is true.

I have yet to see a god claim that meets that burden. If there is some universe creating powerful being, it would know what it would take to prove its existence to me.

That it hasn't either means it is playing hide and seek... or it doesn't exist.

Either it does not exist, or it does not care that I know it's real.

[Neo.]

See there is a story about a real person, Neal Patrick Harris, who we know is real.

He was in New York that we know is real.



Therfore smurfs are real.

---------------------------------------------------------

We have a story with [bible charactor] in it, and we found his tomb, so he was real.

The story took place in [bible place] that we figured out was also real based on archeology.

Therefore magic man in the sky made things happen in the story and is real.

welp then i guess no history books or eyewitness accounts of anything have any meaning for you, since it can all be made up

if thats how you choose to live, more power to you

[RandomGuy]

multiple written eyewitness accounts. no different than what many history books have that we have no problem accepting. not sure why eyewitness accounts suddenly arent credible in the case of the bible, but are fully acceptable in pretty much any other case. or maybe we should just dismiss half the stuff that was talked about in The Last Dance about Michael Jordan, since there was no video evidence or artifacts found of him punching Will Perdue, only eyewitness accounts.

Bible history fail.

None of the books of the bible were actually written by actual witnesses to the events.

We dont' even know who the original authors were.

Some passages are thought to be outright forgeries, inserted waaay after the fact.

Exactly what one would expect from a work of humans.

[Neo.]

Provide evidence to a sufficient degree, and I will believe something is true.

I have yet to see a god claim that meets that burden. If there is some universe creating powerful being, it would know what it would take to prove its existence to me.

That it hasn't either means it is playing hide and seek... or it doesn't exist.

Either it does not exist, or it does not care that I know it's real.

so basically you and i have different levels of proof that satisfies our questions. ive personally found proof, reasoning and evidence that is strong enough for me to believe in the bible. you havent. so be it. again, im not trying to sway your thinking, or make fun of you for your stance. i respect your decision, and can even understand it to some degree.

[Blake]

but but but what if it wasnt actually egyptians building the pyramid, and it was actually people from asia performing a massive trolljob to confuse all of future humankind?



multiple written eyewitness accounts. no different than what many history books have that we have no problem accepting. not sure why eyewitness accounts suddenly arent credible in the case of the bible, but are fully acceptable in pretty much any other case. or maybe we should just dismiss half the stuff that was talked about in The Last Dance about Michael Jordan, since there was no video evidence or artifacts found of him punching Will Perdue, only eyewitness accounts.

Have you ever heard of Zoroastrianism?

[Blake]

so basically you and i have different levels of proof that satisfies our questions. ive personally found proof, reasoning and evidence that is strong enough for me to believe in the bible. you havent. so be it. again, im not trying to sway your thinking, or make fun of you for your stance. i respect your decision, and can even understand it to some degree.

So you're good with the slavery in it,? The killing of the ghey?