Where are you pro lifers on this one

[RandomGuy]

literally one verse prior
Lev 23:43
NIV
43 "Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God."

other translations say "you must not treat him cruelly" or "you shall not exploit him"
also the end of verse 46 that you quoted said the same

the very next verses
Lev 23:47-52
NIV
47 “ ‘If a foreigner residing among you becomes rich and any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to the foreigner or to a member of the foreigner’s clan, 48 they retain the right of redemption after they have sold themselves. One of their relatives may redeem them: 49 An uncle or a cousin or any blood relative in their clan may redeem them. Or if they prosper, they may redeem themselves. 50 They and their buyer are to count the time from the year they sold themselves up to the Year of Jubilee. The price for their release is to be based on the rate paid to a hired worker for that number of years. 51 If many years remain, they must pay for their redemption a larger share of the price paid for them. 52 If only a few years remain until the Year of Jubilee, they are to compute that and pay for their redemption accordingly. 53 They are to be treated as workers hired from year to year; you must see to it that those to whom they owe service do not rule over them ruthlessly.

slaves could redeem themselves if they or someone else were able to repay their debt

Lev 23:36, 37
NIV
36 Do not take interest or any profit from them, but fear your God, so that they may continue to live among you. 37 You must not lend them money at interest or sell them food at a profit.

no exploiting them

Ex 21:20, 26, 27
NIV
20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result
26 “An owner who hits a male or female slave in the eye and destroys it must let the slave go free to compensate for the eye. 27 And an owner who knocks out the tooth of a male or female slave must let the slave go free to compensate for the tooth.

mistreating slaves was not acceptable and could result in immediate release
killing slaves was punishable by death

Ex 21:16
NIV
16 “Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper’s possession.

taking and forcing someone into slavery for no reason at all was unacceptable and punishable by death

Ex 21:2
NIV
2 “If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything.

slaves were to serve a maximum of 6 years then be set free

Lev 25:40, 41
NIV
40 They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. 41 Then they and their children are to be released, and they will go back to their own clans and to the property of their ancestors.

slaves were to be released on jubilee year, regardless of how long they served or how much they still owed

Deut 15:13-15
NIV
13 And when you release them, do not send them away empty-handed. 14 Supply them liberally from your flock, your threshing floor and your winepress. Give to them as the LORD your God has blessed you. 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and the LORD your God redeemed you. That is why I give you this command today.

upon release slaves were not to be sent out with nothing, they were to be treated generously and provided supplies, especially in consideration for the years of slavery that israel endured in egypt




so yes you are correct that such slavery was not oppressive in the least. it was a way to repay debt, or in some cases, simply a way to find work if you were extremely poor and didnt have the means to provide on your own, as people could voluntarily become slaves.

Tap dancing.

You are allowed to beat them as long as they don't die within a few days.

That is mistreatment by any measure.

You skipped over the parts that outline how slavery was permanent for everybody but male jews, and could even be made permanent for them by tricking them into it by giving them wives and children who were absolutely property.

Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.

45Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.

46And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

different rules for jews and non-jews.

Women were forced into sexual slavery.

Cherry pick and dodge all you want, it is there.

[DMC]

the thing with the bible is, you are making all these claims assuming there is no god.

so yes, if we say there is no god, then the bible obviously is a farce. however if there was a god that exists and is capable of supernatural things, then how would it be so impossible for events of the bible to be true?

ultimately in the end, it comes down to whether you believe in god existing or not. if you believe he does or maybe exists, then everything about the bible is absolutely a possibility. if you dont believe he exists, then based on our knowledge of the universe, many things in the bible seem completely impossible and unbelievable. so in the end, we are never going to see eye to eye on this because of that simple difference between the two of us. and im fine with that, like i said im not trying to change your mind. i just think there are some double standards here.

The Bible isn't a farce whether or not a god exists. The Bible is a story of the linage King David, complete with the things they believed to be true in those days. I read it about like the Hobbit only less entertaining and certainly there aren't nearly as many large buildings dedicated to worshipping Saruman. The New Testament is the attempt by a relatively small group of people to fulfill prophesy they all knew about from the days of King David. It's not a coincidence that David was a king and that his prophesy just had to be fulfilled. Just as atheists today say there is no god, and that notion is a paradigm shift for many people, the Christians of those days were shifting the paradigm to say Jesus was a god and that the OT had been fulfilled. The trend has been to go from the Christian god wanting everything you have, all the time (think Allah) to just a thought and a prayer, as long as you accept a premise of Jesus being the eternal savior and you renounce your sins. Christians made religion more user friendly and atheists have simply applied hacks.

As Hitchens said, we were born sick and commanded to be well, else we face eternal fire and we have freedom of choice because God demands it.

[RandomGuy]

and away we go.

Evil condoned by the God of the bible:

Let's start with rape and murder of children.

15And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

16Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Murder the boys and male infants, and any woman not a virgin. Keep them for yourselves as sex slaves.

Pretty clear.

[DMC]

The problem of evil only matters if you don't allow god to exist outside of his own edict. If god is a slave to his own commandments, he's not actually god, but a subject to a set of rules.

[RandomGuy]

ooh here's a good one. sentence rape victims to death just like their rapists.

If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;

24Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

she didn't scream loud enough... is enough to condemn a rape victim to death.

[RandomGuy]

The problem of evil only matters if you don't allow god to exist outside of his own edict. If god is a slave to his own commandments, he's not actually god, but a subject to a set of rules.

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

[Blake]

The problem of evil only matters if you don't allow god to exist outside of his own edict. If god is a slave to his own commandments, he's not actually god, but a subject to a set of rules.

It's the problem of avoiding contradiction. Nowhere in the bible does it say God is above his own commandments.

You can't say Thou shalt not kill right after you flooded nearly everyone out because of regret.

[Neo.]

Tap dancing.

You are allowed to beat them as long as they don't die within a few days.

That is mistreatment by any measure.

You skipped over the parts that outline how slavery was permanent for everybody but male jews, and could even be made permanent for them by tricking them into it by giving them wives and children who were absolutely property.



different rules for jews and non-jews.

Women were forced into sexual slavery.

Cherry pick and dodge all you want, it is there.

and away we go.

Evil condoned by the God of the bible:

Let's start with rape and murder of children.



Murder the boys and male infants, and any woman not a virgin. Keep them for yourselves as sex slaves.

Pretty clear.

ooh here's a good one. sentence rape victims to death just like their rapists.



she didn't scream loud enough... is enough to condemn a rape victim to death.

whining about "cherry picking" then immediately cherry picking and in some cases literally making stuff up

if thats how you want to discuss, then i will not be discussing with you. like i said, you have your mind made up and i have mine. ill have a civil discussion, but i wont bother if you are just going to do stuff like this.

cue the "thats what i expect from a theist who cant back his claims up" posts

[Neo.]

The Bible isn't a farce whether or not a god exists. The Bible is a story of the linage King David, complete with the things they believed to be true in those days. I read it about like the Hobbit only less entertaining and certainly there aren't nearly as many large buildings dedicated to worshipping Saruman. The New Testament is the attempt by a relatively small group of people to fulfill prophesy they all knew about from the days of King David. It's not a coincidence that David was a king and that his prophesy just had to be fulfilled. Just as atheists today say there is no god, and that notion is a paradigm shift for many people, the Christians of those days were shifting the paradigm to say Jesus was a god and that the OT had been fulfilled. The trend has been to go from the Christian god wanting everything you have, all the time (think Allah) to just a thought and a prayer, as long as you accept a premise of Jesus being the eternal savior and you renounce your sins. Christians made religion more user friendly and atheists have simply applied hacks.

As Hitchens said, we were born sick and commanded to be well, else we face eternal fire and we have freedom of choice because God demands it.

when i say a farce, im talking about the supernatural things recorded, such as plagues, flood, resurrections, feeding thousands with almost no food etc... its pretty obvious that those things cannot happen by the power of any human, but needs some form of intervention from a more powerful being. otherwise mankinds problems would be solved if humans could simply just do those types of miracles.

[DMC]

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. (a human construct)
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

Terms like omnipotent and malevolent are human concepts. Would a puppy think it's mother malevolent when she begins to ween the puppy? You and I know why the mother does it, but the puppy doesn't know. To the puppy, the weening is evil, it's done intentionally by an uncaring mother. If she's not willing to prevent it, why call her mother?

Supposedly god doesn't rely on you accepting his being there, supposedly god is there regardless and you can like it or go yourself in . Why call him god? Why worship him? Because you don't want to burn in for all of eternity. Same reason people in NK worship Kim Jong Il.

[DMC]

when i say a farce, im talking about the supernatural things recorded, such as plagues, flood, resurrections, feeding thousands with almost no food etc... its pretty obvious that those things cannot happen by the power of any human, but needs some form of intervention from a more powerful being. otherwise mankinds problems would be solved if humans could simply just do those types of miracles.

These are the reasons I dismiss Christianity's excuses when asked for evidence. The people alive when Jesus walked on Earth had to see miracles, and Jesus felt obliged to perform them. God had to do a lot of cool to get anyone to believe he existed, and the Bible is full of like that just as selling points as to why this family of people believed in this god. However suddenly these things stopped happening once cameras were invented.

[Neo.]

These are the reasons I dismiss Christianity's excuses when asked for evidence. The people alive when Jesus walked on Earth had to see miracles, and Jesus felt obliged to perform them. God had to do a lot of cool to get anyone to believe he existed, and the Bible is full of like that just as selling points as to why this family of people believed in this god. However suddenly these things stopped happening once cameras were invented.

cameras were invented in 100 AD?

[DMC]

cameras were invented in 100 AD?

So you're saying no miracles happened after 100 AD?

[DMC]

It's the problem of avoiding contradiction. Nowhere in the bible does it say God is above his own commandments.

You can't say Thou shalt not kill right after you flooded nearly everyone out because of regret.

I can't, you're right. I am not God.

[Neo.]

So you're saying no miracles happened after 100 AD?

on par with parting the red sea or resurrections? im not aware of any, doesnt mean none happened.

however i personally think the preservation of scripture is a miracle in its own right with all the attempts to conceal and destroy it, even killing people for attempting to translate, copy and distribute it.

regardless, even if people saw a miracle happen, does that mean every atheist would suddenly believe in the existence of god? or would there just be more attempts to chalk it up to unexplained phenomena, or perhaps the manifestation of aliens? even in the bible many people that witnessed miracles and the incredible power of god still didnt change their mind and did their own thing. maybe it would work for you personally, idk, but im sure it still wouldnt work for many. i mean theres still people who legitimately believe bill russell would be the best player in the nba in any day and age, so some people simply are going to believe what they want to believe no matter how compelling any evidence or reasoning is.

[DMC]

on par with parting the red sea or resurrections? im not aware of any, doesnt mean none happened.

however i personally think the preservation of scripture is a miracle in its own right with all the attempts to conceal and destroy it, even killing people for attempting to translate, copy and distribute it.

regardless, even if people saw a miracle happen, does that mean every atheist would suddenly believe in the existence of god? or would there just be more attempts to chalk it up to unexplained phenomena, or perhaps the manifestation of aliens? even in the bible many people that witnessed miracles and the incredible power of god still didnt change their mind and did their own thing. maybe it would work for you personally, idk, but im sure it still wouldnt work for many. i mean theres still people who legitimately believe bill russell would be the best player in the nba in any day and age, so some people simply are going to believe what they want to believe no matter how compelling any evidence or reasoning is.

Would you believe in the existence of Thor if you saw a man fall from the sky wielding a hammer with a Viking helmet on?

Why would anyone automatically associate odd happenings with the Christian version of a god? There are thousands of different gods that might be a better fit. It's no coincidence that people typically follow the religion of the region in which they were born and live. It's a learned, engrained concept and as a child you are basically made to feel ashamed if you don't subscribe to it wholeheartedly. There will likely be a gay POTUS before there's a professed atheist POTUS. That's how unwelcome the atheist is in this country.

[Neo.]

Would you believe in the existence of Thor if you saw a man fall from the sky wielding a hammer with a Viking helmet on?

Why would anyone automatically associate odd happenings with the Christian version of a god? There are thousands of different gods that might be a better fit.

lol you clearly missed the point

It's no coincidence that people typically follow the religion of the region in which they were born and live. It's a learned, engrained concept and as a child you are basically made to feel ashamed if you don't subscribe to it wholeheartedly. There will likely be a gay POTUS before there's a professed atheist POTUS. That's how unwelcome the atheist is in this country.

sounds an awful lot like what atheists try to do too tbqh

[ElNono]

I agree completely that religion has most definitely been used as a tool for control, and it's pretty sad. but as you said, it's not the only reason.

I personally feel that a proper understanding and application of the bible isnt a matter of control at all, as opposed to a way to know our creator and advice on how to live life decently and have unity with one another. when people use it to try to control others or take away choice, it's a very sad thing and horrible misuse of the scriptures imo

Agree. Plus there's the whole 'personal god' thing, which we can frame into a mul ude of things: psychology, spirituality, etc and has nothing to do with control of the masses.

That's why in general I don't have a problem with people enjoying and experiencing their religion. It can have a positive, utilitarian value to that person. My patience ends when some people want to impose it on me, whether it's because they truly believe in it or anything else.

[Frenchfred]

i called it the theory too.

but many people present it as fact.



lol and the same is done by atheists, they want religion to probe that he exists because they know they cant prove that its outside the realm of possibility that he exists, which has been my point all along, both sides do the same thing just on the other end of the spectrum

it is called a theory by scientist

again, religious people are the ones claiming the existence of a god and asking to follow rules based on that.

[Frenchfred]

theres a big difference between telling stories to try to explain something you dont understand, and retelling events that happened during your lifetime as guys like moses did

lol recording capabilities have existed for what, 100 years or so? the bible records events that spans thousands years and doesnt have record of god making some sort of annual appearance or anything. there were periods where he didnt interact with humans for hundreds of years. why would we expect him to suddenly appear just to make you happy?

there are no difference between your religion and the other I mentioned. You choose to believe that the stories told by others are true; that's all.

Why don't you expect him to appear? He is just a sperm donor, he has a kid and leaves never to show up again? At least he should pay alimony but we are left with diseases, natural disasters, murders and other catastrophes. For a guy who could have everything stop, he seems happy to see his spawns suffer

[Frenchfred]

on par with parting the red sea or resurrections? im not aware of any, doesnt mean none happened.

however i personally think the preservation of scripture is a miracle in its own right with all the attempts to conceal and destroy it, even killing people for attempting to translate, copy and distribute it.

regardless, even if people saw a miracle happen, does that mean every atheist would suddenly believe in the existence of god? or would there just be more attempts to chalk it up to unexplained phenomena, or perhaps the manifestation of aliens? even in the bible many people that witnessed miracles and the incredible power of god still didnt change their mind and did their own thing. maybe it would work for you personally, idk, but im sure it still wouldnt work for many. i mean theres still people who legitimately believe bill russell would be the best player in the nba in any day and age, so some people simply are going to believe what they want to believe no matter how compelling any evidence or reasoning is.

if a guy shows up and make something disappear or appear like a building out of thin air, it would be difficult not to believe.

Better question, if god appears and create such miracles and tells you that he is allah, would you convert to islam or decide that this is impossible and continue believing in the bible?

[leemajors]

If Bible God exists, seriously based on the laws and actions in the Old Testament, he's a huge insecure asshole

It's either believe/ worship me or die. That's the main message from front to back.

That's why he rebirthed himself.

[Blake]

if a guy shows up and make something disappear or appear like a building out of thin air, it would be difficult not to believe.

Better question, if god appears and create such miracles and tells you that he is allah, would you convert to islam or decide that this is impossible and continue believing in the bible?

At that point the Christians would want hard proof

[koriwhat]

Blake fights so hard for abortion yet his mommy didn't abort him and his ex-wife didn't abort his own child. It's quite comical the hill some of you faces want to die on.

Too bad mommy didn't abort Blakey poo though...

[Blake]

Blake fights so hard for abortion yet his mommy didn't abort him and his ex-wife didn't abort his own child. It's quite comical the hill some of your faces want to die on.

Too bad mommy didn't abort Blakey poo though...

Remember det time you said you found God while hopped up on LSD?