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That might be true, but it only highlights what Don Nelson once joked about: how coaches and scouts believe there are maybe a dozen true Max players in the league at any given time, but agents and players think there are 40.
If DJ was a FA this offseason he probably gets near max money.Murray's nowhere near a superstar (edited to clarify that I'm talking about guys whose trade demands normally drive headlines and not just fringe All-Stars or top options on mediocre teams) . He can ask for a trade ala Thad Young, and hopefully if he did, the Spurs can get good value. I'm even on record for saying the Spurs should trade him in the long term. But in terms of basketball clout, this would be a minor loss compared to what SA has had to deal with over the past several seasons. Murray's had a good year and is great for the culture, but he's not even close to a max player like some said in this thread.
That might be true, but it only highlights what Don Nelson once joked about: how coaches and scouts believe there are maybe a dozen true Max players in the league at any given time, but agents and players think there are 40.
It’s a market. Rules are clear. Buyers and sellers. What is the alternative, an infinite salary cap? Steph, KD, Jokic, Giannis healthy Kawhi worth double the next 5 best.
Well both of them are delusional and wrong and of course they both think that way. Of course Donny who is responsible for getting players to sign, wants to get them to sign for as little as possible and thus needs to be in the business of telling them they are not worth max money. And of course players and agents want the most money and are in the business of saying they are in fact max players and should be making max money.
You could say the thing about Donny. I always thought he was a GM. The only thing he ever did was be lucky enough to have a low maintenance all time great like Dirk, and he could only get one le out of a guy who became a progenitor like player that everyone in the nba covets to this day...the magical "big man who can shoot". He somehow backed doored that with Luka but Luka isn't a laid back chill dude like Dirk is so the second little Donny had to manage a personality and get off easy street, he couldn't even hang on to his job. I wonder well he get another one in the nba since the younger generation of front office people don't really care about who his father end and he spent years being known as the guy who struck out and literally every big free agent signing...
Depends. If he were coming off his fourth year into an RFA summer, the Spurs might be willing to max him to keep him while trying to get less than that ala Collins with ATL. That first tier of max contracts is speculative. Guys like Wiggins and Russell get them just for having a pulse. I famously worried that the Spurs would max Murray had they not agreed to an extension a couple of years ago. But that next level of maxes -- meaning the one Murray will be eligible for when his contract runs out -- doesn't get handed out very freely. Flawed or relatively unaccomplished players don't usually get that kind of contract. You need multiple All-Stars to do so. Look at the list of guys in that ball-park: https://www.basketball-reference.com...s/players.html
You'll see either proven players or bad contracts that were handed out by desperate teams. I don't think Murray is any threat to get near that right now. Maybe he will get there, and this conversation would be different if that happens, but I don't know if STers really understand how far away he is from that tier still. He's playing really well, but there are a number of players who are in his tier making nowhere near max money. The guys making demands and bending teams to their wills are All-NBAers in the prime of their careers. Right now, Murray doesn't have the clout to demand to be on a contender. Only guys who'd be founding members of a superteam could do that, and DeJounte at best can be expected to be a key starter on a contender that already has established stars. It would be like Draymond Green demanding a trade. Like sure, Dray is a great player whose impact has obviously helped the Warriors win their les. But Curry (and Durant) are the superstars, and Golden State wouldn't panic about Dray the way they would those guys. The Spurs have already shed multiple HoFers almost every year for most a half-decade. They aren't looking at a 30-50 player leaving as a reason to fall apart.
That's how you Nostradamus fake internet predictions for even faker "clout". Always push things into the future/horizon, never take too big a risk with your "predictions", always have a backpedal in the back of your pocket for when you're inevitably wrong and called out for it. "Oh, he still hasn't demanded a trade after 4 years? Well, I did say this was about the future, we just gotta keep waiting!".
Laughably pitiful.
If the Spurs are still middling lottery team or even just a 7th or 8th seed at best in a few years and Dejounte want's out I doubt anybody is going to be upset. The reason why people were upset about Kawhi wanting out is he tried to do it secretly without being honest about it from the get-go and he also destroyed the Spurs as a contender along with their reputation.
I agree with this. Don’t think the Spurs would get to a max when he approaches free agency in 2024 but wouldn’t be surprised to see a team with cap space and no free agents to sign to offer him near max money.
I wasn't using the quote as some big endorsement of Nelson at all. I just think it's accurate in terms of an honest assessment of top tier talent. Sometimes the worst thing a franchise can do is sign a guy to a max who doesn't deserve it-- think of someone like the Kings and Demarcus Cousins, or Kevin Love with the post-LeBron Cavs.
Don’t think Cousins ever signed a max contract but there was a time pre injuries he was absolutely a max player. You thinking Drummond maybe?
No, definitely Cousins. His advanced stats were always much less impressive than his raw stats, and he didn't have the mental make up to be the leader of a team. Holding on to him set the Kings back at least half a decade. Trading him while his rep as a 20/10 big was still intact would've been the best move the Kings could've made, but they were too taken with the mostly meaningless raw stats he put up. Although Drummond is another good example.
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...cramento-kings
Cousins both got and earned a max contract, and that didn't hold back the Kings. That they couldn't get anyone nearly as good as him is what held them back. He definitely had his problems, and the Kings did well to get rid of him before his body broke down. It just sucks they placed too much value on Buddy Hield. Anyway, Cousins getting the low-level max is basically what I am talking about. Guys who get it end up busting out or disappointing all the time. The second-tier max? Not really. By year 7 or 8, teams don't assume there's upside. Maybe with two more years, Murray will be good enough to get that max. But if he were up for it now, I really don't think he'd get nearly that much. He wouldn't get more than DeRozan did, for example.
Cousins was never going to be the best player/leader of a good team. He couldn't even lead them to 35 wins-- a very low bar-- and having the most immature & volatile guy in the league as a centerpiece is a recipe for disaster. The Kings started to improve the minute they traded Cousins, and continued that trend, even with an overpaid Hield still on the roster.
the second post in the thread:
i'm sure dejounte is estatic about being on a team that lost to the pistons and then got blown out by the raptors.
Ppl said the same thing about Zbo and he matured in Memphis to be an absolute problem in the right way. Cousins had a pretty unique and valuable skill set when healthy.
The lower-level max is not something reserved for centerpieces. That's basically what I've been saying for a few posts now. Cousins made the All-Star team four times. That type of play is definitely worth a low-max. He didn't get a second max for the reasons you stated (he was actually traded by SAC in large part to avoid having to give him a DPE, which is what I think KK was thinking of when he thought Cousins never signed a max contract), but he both earned and lived up to that low-max.
I feel like you and I in particular have had this discussion at least once before. But at the risk of repeating myself, I'll say that max contracts are capped in such a way that require a player to be a true franchise cornerstone to earn them. Having a second- or even third-best player getting a max deal is relatively common, and giving out a low-max to a guy who's very good but not great isn't really that damaging given how trades work in the NBA. Maxing John Collins for example would've been just fine even if he ended up being a solid but not spectacular player. An All-NBA defender and distributor like a healthy Simmons can be worth even the Rose-max while not being able to carry a team's offense. It's fine. The NBA salary structure is robust enough to be able to absorb those contracts. The fact that Cousins' body broke down removed any real chance he had to show he was worth a second max, but there were and are far worse low-maxes in the league than his second contract.
I pretty much agree with all of the contract/money stuff that you're talking about, but the important component here is/was Cousins' incredible immaturity, and the necessity for every teammate and member of the coaching staff to be always be anxious & hyper-vigilant and ready to jump in if he decided it was time to fight or do something silly. I just don't think he was ever going to lead a great or even good team because they'd have to expend so much energy worrying about him. At his absolute best he put up monster numbers and led a volatile unhappy team to 33 wins. I think that's who he was unfortunately.
Who said I was talking about just this thread? I wish this were the only stupid poll you've made on this forum...
I'm sure Dejounte is more thinking that he's gotta get back to his team and help them win, than he is thinking "man, what a trash team, I gotta get myself out of here!!". I'd understand if you were talking about someone like SGA, who's clearly pretty fed up with his team's constant losing and blatant tanking, but DJ is on an entirely different situation, culture, and team.
It's nice of you to vote "this offseason" though, so we can more rapidly determine that you're wrong. I commend the efficiency, tbh.
I see. So what your saying is a Player like Simmons can get a max because of where he was drafted but then when the second max comes around he wont get it. As I said he gets it on his name not on what he actually does. When their next contracts come up DJ will earn a better contract then Simmons.
Simmons was almost guaranteed a max contract because of where he was drafted, yes. But he got the Rose-max because he has multiple All-Star and All-NBA nods. He's still significantly more accomplished than Murray. Of course, now Simmons is a risk to be nowhere near the max on a new deal with his at ude/health problems. I'm not going to defend the idea that Simmons hasn't tanked his value recently. But if Murray of this year and Simmons of last year were both free agents eligible for the second-level max, then Simmons would still earn more. Ben is bigger, more accomplished and has better impact stats. I'm not going to keep debating the idea that Simmons wasn't productive or impactful. Evidence to demonstrate that he was both has been shown multiple times already. Nothing he does now retroactively makes him worse previously.
I feel like that is a pointless hypothetical though. Maybe if Ben comes back to play for a year or so to where he recovers his value from this holdout thing, then we'll be able to directly compare them. One of the chief reasons why I'd hope the Spurs aren't in Simmons discussions at all at this point is that it may take two seasons for him to play at his previous level if he even plays at all.
Glad to see that you actually admitting Simmons was given his max more on where he was drafted then him actually earning it. As far as the advanced stats they will make a player on a better team look better. Since DJ really has not been on as good of teams his will be worse. Even if Simmons was playing as good as last year and DJ this year Simmons would not get a bigger deal. if he was as good you clam teams would be willing to give up more.
No, he literally could not have signed his extension had he not "earned" it. My whole point before you came into the thread is that the first tier of max contracts aren't given for production. But Simmons skipped the first tier of max and went to the second deal via the Rose/DRE deal he got to sign. To put it into perspective, Kawhi, even with a fMVP, didn't qualify for it (though he could have done so with the modern standards since a single DPOY is now enough and he got one in his fourth season). This isn't Andrew Wiggins getting a max just because he was a 6-8 former first-overall with tons of athleticism.
That's not how advanced stats work. We've been over this, and this isn't a Simmons thread.As far as the advanced stats they will make a player on a better team look better. Since DJ really has not been on as good of teams his will be worse.
If you had two guys who played the same but one was 6-9 and the other 6-5, the taller guy would get more. Basketball is a game of inches.Even if Simmons was playing as good as last year and DJ this year Simmons would not get a bigger deal.
More ... than what? We don't know who's willing to give up what for whom right now. We have no idea what if any offers teams have made the Spurs for Murray, and we don't know what teams have truly offered for Simmons. That's just a dead end of speculation, and this isn't the place for that, at least in terms of Simmons. I would be curious to know how teams around the league value Murray now given his play even though I still believe the team shouldn't consider moving him until the draft. RGMers are really split on him, which some thinking he's equivalent to guys like Sabonis while others think he and White can be had as a package deal for cheap. They certainly don't represent real execs, but it does help to get some perspective on DeJounte's performance outside of what it looks like against that of other Spurs.if he was as good you clam teams would be willing to give up more.
Damion Lee got more votes than Dejounte
It's things like this that contribute to the majority of players wanting nothing to do with this organization.Damion Lee got more votes than Dejounte
By your own admission Ben was "almost guaranteed a max contract because of where he was drafted," now this max was going to be which ever max it was wither the standard or the one for being an all star. He got the allstar nod also partly to being on a good team and his name. If he would not have had him name recognition then he would not have made it.
Advanced stats are helped by being on a good team. They were designed not to do this but the team they play on does stilll effect most advanced stats. I player on a good team will tend to have better offense and defense numbers just because the team is better. basketball is still a team game so the team does effect them.
If I had two people that played the same and one was taller wouldnt care. as if they are the execpt same then they could switch in for one another. now I understand the point your trying to make. but if one is taller is the other faster, more agile? but if the excat same other then heights would not care as results are the same.
more then what? well most reports have been they are not willing to trade a certain player for him. if he was as good as you imply people would give up a far lessvaluable player for him but they cant even seem to get that. Sacramento might be changing their tune but untill the trade is made he is not worth the players that they are trying to get.
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